DirectX 11?

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Didn’t say CCP wasn’t developing it, but it’s a far cry from putting out a tech demo and implying as you did that EVE has added Dx11 support already (the phrase “did this” implies it’s done and out).

NCSOFT isn’t developing GW2, ArenaNet is. The game started development in March 2007. Dx11 wasn’t out until July 2009 with Windows 7. AMD didn’t have proper hardware support until Sept 2009 and nVidia until April 2010. ANet developed their own engine, reportedly based off of the GW1 engine developed back in the early 2000s. A game that supported GeForce 3s and ATI 8500 video cards. They did up the requirements to Dx 9.0c hardware support or better for GW2.

Until ANet started to bring in money and payoff what ever development cost debt they accrued in the 5 year development cycle they weren’t going to be adventurous enough with their development cash to slave a team off for Dx 11. They may have had one guy investigating but right now the engine team has bigger fish to fry with the O(n^c) performance problems when lots of players are in a small area. Run into a crowd, even one standing about doing very little and CPU usage shoots up, GPU usage drops and that’s not good. Run away CPU usage goes down, GPU usage and frame rate goes up. Dx 11 isn’t going to fix that. It has the hallmarks of an algorithm/code structure scaling problem.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

(edited by Behellagh.1468)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Even the Xbone isn’t built on Direct X 11. While it retains many elements of it Direct X isn’t efficient and “low-level” enough for consoles. They need more customization and flexibility than DX 11 can offer.

uh-huh… you’re argument reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNL0KfD0nts

ummm, dee jay is right?

consoles uses a minimalistic api that is closer to bare metal. Direct X overhead is huge. If anet uses the newly released amd mantle api, then most of GW2 bottlenecks will disappear or minimized.

DirectX 11 is another high level graphic api, you still have to rearchitect the engine to take advantage of multithreading which is hard.

What’s right about it? It’s DX11, just fit to the xbox. All the xbox is is a pseudo-PC. It’s not taking huge ports to develop on it say as for like the PS. Wow, this is breaking news, X1 is not really running DX11, must be all over google… uh-huh. Seriously, wasting my time replying. Doesn’t change the fact that for sake of the life span of GW2, anet should be announcing an upgrade project if they are serious about the longevity of this game.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

Even the Xbone isn’t built on Direct X 11. While it retains many elements of it Direct X isn’t efficient and “low-level” enough for consoles. They need more customization and flexibility than DX 11 can offer.

uh-huh… you’re argument reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNL0KfD0nts

ummm, dee jay is right?

consoles uses a minimalistic api that is closer to bare metal. Direct X overhead is huge. If anet uses the newly released amd mantle api, then most of GW2 bottlenecks will disappear or minimized.

DirectX 11 is another high level graphic api, you still have to rearchitect the engine to take advantage of multithreading which is hard.

What’s right about it? It’s DX11, just fit to the xbox. All the xbox is is a pseudo-PC. It’s not taking huge ports to develop on it say as for like the PS. Wow, this is breaking news, X1 is not really running DX11, must be all over google… uh-huh. Seriously, wasting my time replying. Doesn’t change the fact that for sake of the life span of GW2, anet should be announcing an upgrade project if they are serious about the longevity of this game.

I really dont think it is a good thing to announce their intend to support direct X 11 too early. Direct X 11 is not a small effort and it may lead too many beggars wondering why Direct X port is not finished yet.

I dont think you understand the difference between consoles and modular pc. Consoles avoids the massive Direct X overhead by having a special api. A better comparison to the X1 is the new AMD mantel api. AMD mantel is not direct X 11. X1 is a pc with less overhead

(edited by loseridoit.2756)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

NCSOFT isn’t developing GW2, ArenaNet is. The game started development in 2007. Dx11 wasn’t out until 2009 with Windows 7. They developed their own engine, reportedly based off of the GW1 engine developed back in the early 2000s. A game that supported GeForce 3s and ATI 8500 video cards. They did up it to Dx 9.0c hardware support or better for GW2.

NCsoft owns ArenaNet. GW2 is owned by NCsoft. The founders of Anet are not even around any longer. Do a little research.

So since DX11 wasn’t out until after GW2 went into development, they are unable to continue development in the future? After a year since release, you are suggesting it’s still all up in the air? That would seem alarming.

I dont think you understand the difference between consoles and modular pc. Consoles avoids the massive Direct X overhead by having a special api. A better comparison to the X1 is the new AMD mantel api. AMD mantel is not direct X 11. X1 is a pc with less overhead

Still wasting my time, you should start a news blog.

(edited by Daywolf.2630)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

NCSOFT isn’t developing GW2, ArenaNet is. The game started development in 2007. Dx11 wasn’t out until 2009 with Windows 7. They developed their own engine, reportedly based off of the GW1 engine developed back in the early 2000s. A game that supported GeForce 3s and ATI 8500 video cards. They did up it to Dx 9.0c hardware support or better for GW2.

NCsoft owns ArenaNet. GW2 is owned by NCsoft. The founders of Anet are not even around any longer. Do a little research.

So since DX11 wasn’t out until after GW2 went into development, they are unable to continue development in the future? After a year since release, you are suggesting it’s still all up in the air? That would seem alarming.

I dont think you understand the difference between consoles and modular pc. Consoles avoids the massive Direct X overhead by having a special api. A better comparison to the X1 is the new AMD mantel api. AMD mantel is not direct X 11. X1 is a pc with less overhead

Still wasting my time, you should start a news blog.

well you are wasting everyone time by saying X1 has direct X 11 when it really doesnt. It really make wonder about your technical knowledge to make informed decisions

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

well you are wasting everyone time by saying X1 has direct X 11 when it really doesnt. It really make wonder about your technical knowledge to make informed decisions

So I gave you a chance to link source sites that show X1 does not use DX11 as everyone claims it is, but you rather just make insult shots at me? Way to go..
And so how does this effect the GW2 DX11 topic, again? Because I’m so incapable of making informed decisions and all…
lulz

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Take a breath Daywolf. In. Out.

DirectX is simply an API, Application Programming Interface. It in and of itself doesn’t mean it’s better or worse than OpenGL, another mature API for graphics that’s being used in the PS4. I’m sure that the XBox 1’s API for graphics is based on the 3D functionality of Dx11. It doesn’t mean it’s 100% identical to what a PC developer has. But since DirectX is Microsoft’s game API I’m sure the XBox 1 is using a custom variant of it.

What an API does, and only does, is hide the grunt work and nuances of hardware. It’s simply a standard library of high and low level functions that then does the dirty work of talking to the hardware either directly or though a device driver. The key point is the developer doesn’t need to know the nuances of the hardware or break what they need to do into many small steps, they can use more complex and abstract data with fewer calls.

Now it doesn’t prevent a developer from writing inefficient code that calls the API. It just provides a target to write to. It’s merely a translator from higher level abstraction to low level hardware manipulation.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

(edited by Behellagh.1468)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

well you are wasting everyone time by saying X1 has direct X 11 when it really doesnt. It really make wonder about your technical knowledge to make informed decisions

So I gave you a chance to link source sites that show X1 does not use DX11 as everyone claims it is, but you rather just make insult shots at me? Way to go..
And so how does this effect the GW2 DX11 topic, again? Because I’m so incapable of making informed decisions and all…
lulz

you dont even know common knowledge.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/03/16/farewell-to-directx/2

direct 3d draw calls are expensive. All direct X 11 introduces the idea of multithread draw calls. Nevertheless, Direct 11 doesnt eliminate the actual overhead

Most of the stuff I wrote is very common knowledge. If you dont know these things how can you suggest Anet split their time.

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

Take a breath Daywolf. In. Out.

DirectX is simply an API, Application Programming Interface. It in and of itself doesn’t mean it’s better or worse than OpenGL, another mature API for graphics that’s being used in the PS4. I’m sure that the XBox 1’s API for graphics is based on the 3D functionality of Dx11. It doesn’t mean it’s 100% identical to what a PC developer has. But since DirectX is Microsoft’s game API I’m sure the XBox 1 is using a custom variant of it.

What an API does, and only does, is hide the grunt work and nuances of hardware. It’s simply a standard library of high and low level functions that then does the dirty work of talking to the hardware either directly or though a device driver. The key point is the developer doesn’t need to know the nuances of the hardware or break what they need to do into many small steps, they can use more complex and abstract data with fewer calls.

Now it doesn’t prevent a developer from writing inefficient code that calls the API. It just provides a target to write to. It’s merely a translator from higher level abstraction to low level hardware manipulation.

Behellah

I wonder what is your opinion on the new Amd mantle api. I hoping one day john carmack gives a quick overview on twitter but I think he is too busy working on the Oculous Rift

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

I’m a low level guy (C and assembler) so I love it. This should also allow developers to roll their own higher level API just for their app. Downside is it’s tied to a specific class of hardware, AMD. You can’t code a Mantle app and have it run on nVidia hardware or older AMD hardware.

It’s 3DFX Glide all over again. There was a lot of amazing progress back then but you had to read the side of the box to see if your card was supported. Only thing I saw JC say about it was printed here.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mantle-api-xbox-one-playstation-4-john-carmack,24434.html

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

well you are wasting everyone time by saying X1 has direct X 11 when it really doesnt. It really make wonder about your technical knowledge to make informed decisions

So I gave you a chance to link source sites that show X1 does not use DX11 as everyone claims it is, but you rather just make insult shots at me? Way to go..
And so how does this effect the GW2 DX11 topic, again? Because I’m so incapable of making informed decisions and all…
lulz

you dont even know common knowledge.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/03/16/farewell-to-directx/2

direct 3d draw calls are expensive. All direct X 11 introduces the idea of multithread draw calls. Nevertheless, Direct 11 doesnt eliminate the actual overhead

Most of the stuff I wrote is very common knowledge. If you dont know these things how can you suggest Anet split their time.

sooo… where in that 2yo webpage does it back up your claim that xbox one in fact is not using dx11? dude, seriously… heh

(edited by Daywolf.2630)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

How many more decades until this kind of mmo textures are gone?

Attachments:

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Take a breath Daywolf. In. Out.

I already know all that, I work with API’s. Editors and compilers too of course. err was a part of college and beyond. Are you replying to what I wrote to you or what the other guy is saying? The other guy is on a wild tangent, making no sense to anything pertaining to the conversation. Join in on that, make even less sense, oddly becoming entertaining. Lets just throw out some more completely random comments and see where they fall! hahaha

How many more decades until this kind of mmo textures are gone?

lol yeah… and you’re probably getting 15fps looking at it too.

(edited by Daywolf.2630)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

There are some rumors out there since AMD announced Mantle because both next gen consoles have AMD GPUs based on the GCN architecture that just maybe Mantle is available to both of them. Anandtech suggested outright that Mantle IS the preferred API for the XBox One.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

How many more decades until this kind of mmo textures are gone?

Once every house in the world has a dedicated glassfiber connection.

Either that, or once MMOs become single player games.

To have masses of players on the screen is the definition of MMO. At the same time, this puts immense strain on the foundations of the internet which isn’t as easily fixed as turning on or off a few DirectX versions.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Take a breath Daywolf. In. Out.

I already know all that, I work with API’s. Editors and compilers too of course. err was a part of college and beyond. Are you replying to what I wrote to you or what the other guy is saying? The other guy is on a wild tangent, making no sense to anything pertaining to the conversation. Join in on that, make even less sense, oddly becoming entertaining. Lets just throw out some more completely random comments and see where they fall! hahaha

Because you’re the one in the “Dx11 is all rainbows and puppies and will solve ALL the game’s performance issues if they simply used it in the first place” camp.

While true that Dx11 has reduced overhead over Dx9 and new features that can reduce it even more so, it isn’t the end all be all of graphic API. It is not a thing that by having in something automatically makes that something superior than another something that doesn’t having it. “But it’s got electrolytes!”

As for consoles if the XBox One is anythink like the XBox 360 then it’s not using a variant of DirectX but something more streamline and closer to the metal.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/graphics/2011/03/16/farewell-to-directx/1

Attachments:

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

(edited by Behellagh.1468)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

How many more decades until this kind of mmo textures are gone?

Once every house in the world has a dedicated glassfiber connection.

Either that, or once MMOs become single player games.

To have masses of players on the screen is the definition of MMO. At the same time, this puts immense strain on the foundations of the internet which isn’t as easily fixed as turning on or off a few DirectX versions.

Textures have nothing to do with the Internet connection. Thats all in the client. Same for the DirectX effects. It comes down to the specs of your PC nothing else.

Internet connection has to do with the amount of information being send. For example if they really render the image of an char with the exact settings as you made it in character creations (not sure if they do, many mmo’s don’t) then for every person in your area all those ‘settings’ (how big is the nose and so on) have to been send to you. And every step they make or action they take needs to be send to you.

Of course more people (with hight graphics) also mean more work for your client but that sort of stuff has nothing to do with your Internet connection.

(edited by Devata.6589)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

How many more decades until this kind of mmo textures are gone?

Once every house in the world has a dedicated glassfiber connection.

Either that, or once MMOs become single player games.

To have masses of players on the screen is the definition of MMO. At the same time, this puts immense strain on the foundations of the internet which isn’t as easily fixed as turning on or off a few DirectX versions.

Textures have nothing to do with the Internet connection. Thats all in the client. Same for the DirectX effects. It comes down to the specs of your PC nothing else.

Internet connection has to do with the amount of information being send. For example if they really render the image of an char with the exact settings as you made it in character creations (not sure if they do, many mmo’s don’t) then for every person in your area all those ‘settings’ (how big is the nose and so on) have to been send to you. And every step they make or action they take needs to be send to you.

Of course more people (with hight graphics) also mean more work for your client but that sort of stuff has nothing to do with your Internet connection.

Yes, that’s correct, world assets are completely client based. So the giant stretched out flat textures on the leaves have nothing to do with the server or bandwidth. None of that information is contained server-side.

The same with player characters, the only difference is what items and hues that the characters are attached to, facial morphing features, body size, etc etc all the personalization settings which are transmitted over bandwidth to your client computer to properly represent the surrounding player characters. Then it just tells your client how to load textures and such, already existing in your client. Of course sometimes it takes a long time for all that data to reach you, then the time it takes VRAM to respond and load the proper assets by the data.

So you won’t see any real improvement in bandwidth with DX11, but you would see this http://www.nvidia.com/object/tessellation.html It’s actually a very nice improvement esthetically, performance wise, and regarding the improved speed of art asset development which means content is more quickly made.

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Tessellation is neither “free”, as in GPU time and resources, nor automatic, as in you must add code to enable it for every object that would benefit from tessellation (or displacement maps). Tessellation does not improve performance, just the opposite but can if done right make an object look more “real”.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: Draco.2806

Draco.2806

Tessellation is neither “free”, as in GPU time and resources, nor automatic, as in you must add code to enable it for every object that would benefit from tessellation (or displacement maps). Tessellation does not improve performance, just the opposite but can if done right make an object look more “real”.

Well, tessellation can be used to improve performance if it replaces standard methods of geometry displacement, such as height mapping or ordinary meshes (meaning, terrain, probably). Hypothetically, reverse tessellation can also be used to introduce dynamic level-of-detail on all world objects, which may improve performance quite drastically.

However, none of this matters because no one’s doing it, no one knows how to do it, and it’s locked to a new platform no one knows how to work with that only works on a tiny percentage of computers anyway. Instead it’s just loners like CryTek who don’t know what to do with it anyway and just waste processing power on nonsense.

Direct3D 10/11 also have some drastically improved paths for developers to use compared to DX9 – some developers talk about it quite openly, even – but this runs into the exact same problem.

If OpenGL was industry standard, we probably wouldn’t be having these problems. OpenGL supported the “Cutting-edge” tessellation technology back in 2004. (No one used it anyway.)

(edited by Draco.2806)

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Tessellation is neither “free”, as in GPU time and resources, nor automatic, as in you must add code to enable it for every object that would benefit from tessellation (or displacement maps). Tessellation does not improve performance, just the opposite but can if done right make an object look more “real”.

Oh no, I strongly disagree. Yes, if you narrow it down to one aspect of the process, but you are throwing out other factors. No one said it was “free”, I sure didn’t, who are you quoting there?

A model mesh is a significant resource hog. Like some years ago, I’ve made models with one-million polygons to even come close to realism. My computer would cringe when I’d rotate the model. Computer performance has increased so that one-million polygons is manageable. But if I now use such a model in a real-time game engine, added with all the other models present, it just won’t be an enjoyable experience.

Over time we created smoothing shaders, displacement shaders, and other such methods, all working to increase realism but cut down on resource requirements of just using polygons alone. All modern games use these methods, it’s not just dependent on the raw power of GPU’s, architecture and the like, but even that has offset the overhead by their development.

Looking at that example model on the page, that is a low-poly model about the level of detail used in games over a decade ago. That is absolutely wonderful! With DX11, it literally transitions to film quality modeling. There remains overhead, but you are not using a high-poly model to get the result, which as a full process is far more manageable than if not using low-poly modeling but opting to use high-poly modeling to achieve the same results. Not only does this make it easier to produce high-end results, but makes rigging your models an easier process w/o the common odd results at bending joints and balancing weights etc. Development time cut, results improved.

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Tessellation is neither “free”, as in GPU time and resources, nor automatic, as in you must add code to enable it for every object that would benefit from tessellation (or displacement maps). Tessellation does not improve performance, just the opposite but can if done right make an object look more “real”.

Oh no, I strongly disagree. Yes, if you narrow it down to one aspect of the process, but you are throwing out other factors. No one said it was “free”, I sure didn’t, who are you quoting there?

You. Emphasis mine.

It’s actually a very nice improvement esthetically, performance wise, and regarding the improved speed of art asset development which means content is more quickly made.

There is no difference in the amount of work that needs to be done if the patch was a passed in with 10K of triangles or the 10K were the result of on card tessellation. Sure the bandwidth used to the card is a lot less but that’s about it.

A model mesh is a significant resource hog. Like some years ago, I’ve made models with one-million polygons to even come close to realism. My computer would cringe when I’d rotate the model. Computer performance has increased so that one-million polygons is manageable. But if I now use such a model in a real-time game engine, added with all the other models present, it just won’t be an enjoyable experience.

Over time we created smoothing shaders, displacement shaders, and other such methods, all working to increase realism but cut down on resource requirements of just using polygons alone. All modern games use these methods, it’s not just dependent on the raw power of GPU’s, architecture and the like, but even that has offset the overhead by their development.

Looking at that example model on the page, that is a low-poly model about the level of detail used in games over a decade ago. That is absolutely wonderful! With DX11, it literally transitions to film quality modeling. There remains overhead, but you are not using a high-poly model to get the result, which as a full process is far more manageable than if not using low-poly modeling but opting to use high-poly modeling to achieve the same results. Not only does this make it easier to produce high-end results, but makes rigging your models an easier process w/o the common odd results at bending joints and balancing weights etc. Development time cut, results improved.

Which page are you talking about because I didn’t link to anything with a model on it.

But what you are saying is there is a lot of work involved to take the assets used for a Dx9c renderer to make them optimal for a Dx11 renderer. I don’t disagree but the point most of the Dx11 crowd was making is that it’s simply a coding issue to get Dx11 performance. But as soon as you touch data you are getting the art crew involved and that is one reason it takes years to develop an MMO, graphic assets.

Yes depending how and in what the original models were modeled creating a new lower poly mesh with control point data for tessellation may be a simple push of a button. Then again it may not be. Then adding displacement maps instead of bump maps to replace illusionary surface detail for lighting with real detail is another step, skinning Vs geometry.

But I’m of the camp where before we go off and build a new renderer and improved textures and models for Dx11 they need to get a handle on their group of players issue.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Tessellation is neither “free”, as in GPU time and resources, nor automatic, as in you must add code to enable it for every object that would benefit from tessellation (or displacement maps). Tessellation does not improve performance, just the opposite but can if done right make an object look more “real”.

Oh no, I strongly disagree. Yes, if you narrow it down to one aspect of the process, but you are throwing out other factors. No one said it was “free”, I sure didn’t, who are you quoting there?

You. Emphasis mine.

It’s actually a very nice improvement esthetically, performance wise, and regarding the improved speed of art asset development which means content is more quickly made.

There is no difference in the amount of work that needs to be done if the patch was a passed in with 10K of triangles or the 10K were the result of on card tessellation. Sure the bandwidth used to the card is a lot less but that’s about it.

A model mesh is a significant resource hog. Like some years ago, I’ve made models with one-million polygons to even come close to realism. My computer would cringe when I’d rotate the model. Computer performance has increased so that one-million polygons is manageable. But if I now use such a model in a real-time game engine, added with all the other models present, it just won’t be an enjoyable experience.

Over time we created smoothing shaders, displacement shaders, and other such methods, all working to increase realism but cut down on resource requirements of just using polygons alone. All modern games use these methods, it’s not just dependent on the raw power of GPU’s, architecture and the like, but even that has offset the overhead by their development.

Looking at that example model on the page, that is a low-poly model about the level of detail used in games over a decade ago. That is absolutely wonderful! With DX11, it literally transitions to film quality modeling. There remains overhead, but you are not using a high-poly model to get the result, which as a full process is far more manageable than if not using low-poly modeling but opting to use high-poly modeling to achieve the same results. Not only does this make it easier to produce high-end results, but makes rigging your models an easier process w/o the common odd results at bending joints and balancing weights etc. Development time cut, results improved.

Which page are you talking about because I didn’t link to anything with a model on it.

But what you are saying is there is a lot of work involved to take the assets used for a Dx9c renderer to make them optimal for a Dx11 renderer. I don’t disagree but the point most of the Dx11 crowd was making is that it’s simply a coding issue to get Dx11 performance. But as soon as you touch data you are getting the art crew involved and that is one reason it takes years to develop an MMO, graphic assets.

Yes depending how and in what the original models were modeled creating a new lower poly mesh with control point data for tessellation may be a simple push of a button. Then again it may not be. Then adding displacement maps instead of bump maps to replace illusionary surface detail for lighting with real detail is another step, skinning Vs geometry.

But I’m of the camp where before we go off and build a new renderer and improved textures and models for Dx11 they need to get a handle on their group of players issue.

I never said free. You put it in quotations as if i had said or even suggested free. Erecting straw men and bludgeoning them with rusted eating utensils only creates a pile of loose hay.

My link? Try scrolling up a couple posts in this thread? The example model is slightly down that page there.

Why would they need to re-work all the existing models? If this were a sandbox, probably, but this is a themepark mmo, and as I have said people expect that expansions come bigger and better at least at some point. Of course if you are already pushing your limits, and cant improve performance and visuals, I guess adding such expansions/new large areas to the game – isn’t a good move for development.

And I’m not speaking right this moment, but some time down the road. There is of course the new technology catchup factor, where it takes time for people to upgrade to new computers to handle the new features. But seeing how it takes time to work into the game, I’m sure it’s better to having been carefully done over a long time rather than throwing huge staffing resources at it to get it out later on before your players get fed up with the game compared to newer games out there.

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

Why rework? Because you point was that with tessellation you can reduce the poly count of the model. Because bump maps and displacement maps aren’t interchangable.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Why rework? Because you point was that with tessellation you can reduce the poly count of the model. Because bump maps and displacement maps aren’t interchangable.

But those already exist. DX11 is backwards compatible. You use new shaders for the new art assets, you are not required to remove the old shaders from the game. Try downloading the NVIDIA shader programming tool <3 FX Composer, experiment some. Then based on your DX version, you load the appropriate character models available. Same thing other mmo’s have done. But old areas of the game, no real need to do a thing.

Such as I’ve mentioned, this is specialized work. They already have those programmers for the engine. Currently they are in maintenance mode, doing what they can to improve performance and stability. At some point they will be done with that. Then, comes the decision of what to do next. They are not going to be attached to content creation, they specialize in building rendering engines etc. So obviously the best thing to do is start working on upgrading the client in this way. Or what, downsize staffing?

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

Such as I’ve mentioned, this is specialized work. They already have those programmers for the engine. Currently they are in maintenance mode, doing what they can to improve performance and stability. At some point they will be done with that. Then, comes the decision of what to do next. They are not going to be attached to content creation, they specialize in building rendering engines etc. So obviously the best thing to do is start working on upgrading the client in this way. Or what, downsize staffing?

you forgot to mention how long does it take. Anet can manage their own time and chase other targets such as worse case server lag etc

It will take awhile before the engine developers to fully understand Direct X 11 and its nuisances. It a common mistake for development shops to announce their features too early when they realized that there are development issues or the fact that they architect it in a way that does not improve performance.

Anet already mention they are trying to rewrite parts of the engine and adding performance. Of course, most of the time they do not have a real answer because they might be as clueless as us.

Here is a post that they are optimizing the sound engine

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Recurring-Sound-Bug/first#post2790771

Every little bit of performance helps

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Posted by: Aridia.3042

Aridia.3042

wow dat looked impressive, when is it coming out? Reminds me of Dragon’s Dogma combat system which i liked a lot. Or is this another generic 30 hotkeys spam fest mmo?
[/quote]

Closed beta starts in Korea this Winter.

It’s probably the best looking MMO out there currently.

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

you forgot to mention how long does it take. Anet can manage their own time and chase other targets such as worse case server lag etc

Well, actually I have. As other mmo project developers have mentioned, they are looking at ~5yrs man hours. As, if Anet assigned one person to do the work, would take around five years. I’m sure they have more developers at anet, but then throwing too many cooks into the kitchen doesn’t always get things done better/faster. So even if just a few, which sounds about right, 1-2 years. And as I’ve mentioned also, I was once attached to a project that did just that, took a few years, mostly with 1-2 people working on that. But Anet/NCsoft is a large AAA game developer, they can throw anything they want at the project, but still better with less people involved.

Oh and as for server lag, take note of my previous post, thought I explained it well enough there. Render engine programmers are not typically a pert of the network/server development team etc.

(edited by Daywolf.2630)

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

There are some rumors out there since AMD announced Mantle because both next gen consoles have AMD GPUs based on the GCN architecture that just maybe Mantle is available to both of them. Anandtech suggested outright that Mantle IS the preferred API for the XBox One.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

The API will ofcourse be available since its HW specific, however I doubt its the preferred API on either.

Even for X1 BF4 support will be out first after several months so that indicates that DX11 (or a spin of it) will be the preferred API. PS4 will ofc. not use that however they cant only use Mantle for several reasons so their base is most likely a spin of OpenGL just as PS3 was.

You should not put too low value on existing art/asset pipelines and engines that are already optimized for DX and OGL.

Now whether Mantle will be used a lot depends on companies bottom line, they want as minimal cost for maximum revenue. If they are targeting X1/PS4 then already there they have two render targets, now adding Mantle just adds cost and nothing in the revenue stream. The only scenario I see Mantle being a preferred choice is if you target only PS4/X1…

PS: Don’t mention BF4+Mantle, that’s basically AMD subsidized.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

. As, if Anet assigned one person to do the work, would take around five years. I’m sure they have more developers at anet, but then throwing too many cooks into the kitchen doesn’t always get things done better/faster. So even if just a few, which sounds about right, 1-2 years. And as I’ve mentioned also, I was once attached to a project that did just that, took a few years, mostly with 1-2 people working on that. But Anet/NCsoft is a large AAA game developer, they can throw anything they want at the project, but still better with less people involved.

Oh and as for server lag, take note of my previous post, thought I explained it well enough there. Render engine programmers are not typically a pert of the network/server development team etc.

Well, my problem is that you are trying to force them to announce them to do a major overhaul when there obviously other problems in the game.

I mention other areas of the engine because the engine might have other bottlenecks that may slow down client performance.

Direct X 11 is not a magic bullet. Besides, they might have to abandon the mac port which might get political

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

There are some rumors out there since AMD announced Mantle because both next gen consoles have AMD GPUs based on the GCN architecture that just maybe Mantle is available to both of them. Anandtech suggested outright that Mantle IS the preferred API for the XBox One.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

The API will ofcourse be available since its HW specific, however I doubt its the preferred API on either.

Even for X1 BF4 support will be out first after several months so that indicates that DX11 (or a spin of it) will be the preferred API. PS4 will ofc. not use that however they cant only use Mantle for several reasons so their base is most likely a spin of OpenGL just as PS3 was.

You should not put too low value on existing art/asset pipelines and engines that are already optimized for DX and OGL.

Now whether Mantle will be used a lot depends on companies bottom line, they want as minimal cost for maximum revenue. If they are targeting X1/PS4 then already there they have two render targets, now adding Mantle just adds cost and nothing in the revenue stream. The only scenario I see Mantle being a preferred choice is if you target only PS4/X1…

PS: Don’t mention BF4+Mantle, that’s basically AMD subsidized.

mantle is a console like api for the pc…….

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

On the discussion of DX11 upgrade its not that easy…

Normal game engines has a higher level frontend API and isolate the rendering to abstract components. This means the internals don’t really change when you switch platform/render target.

If you only look at it from that angle then yes it would be fairly trivial to write a new render backend supporting DX11. However what would be the upside? In order to make use of the new features in DX11 you would still have to mod the engines internals which is a costly and sometimes risky business (old optimizations gets broken etc).

The only benefit from a simple port would be a more efficient draw call handling (due to DX11 threading support) but I doubt ANet sees rendering performance as extremely critical at present.

(edited by aeneq.1760)

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

mantle is a console like api for the pc…….

Not likely, as is confirmed by posts on AMD twitter feed. The Mantle is present in one form or another on both X1 and PS4 as well as being available on PCs at some point.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

mantle is a console like api for the pc…….

Not likely, as is confirmed by posts on AMD twitter feed. The Mantle is present in one form or another on both X1 and PS4 as well as being available on PCs at some point.

Actually, it an api for their gcn card architecture.

I guess Amd will probably will be selling gcn cards for a very long time

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

mantle is a console like api for the pc…….

Not likely, as is confirmed by posts on AMD twitter feed. The Mantle is present in one form or another on both X1 and PS4 as well as being available on PCs at some point.

Actually, it an api for their gcn card architecture.

I guess Amd will probably will be selling gcn cards for a very long time

What does “Actually…” refer too? Dont see anything in the quote that seems to be applicable.

(edited by aeneq.1760)

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Well, my problem is that you are trying to force them to announce them to do a major overhaul when there obviously other problems in the game.

I mention other areas of the engine because the engine might have other bottlenecks that may slow down client performance.

Direct X 11 is not a magic bullet. Besides, they might have to abandon the mac port which might get political

I can’t force then to say or do anything. I do think it would be beneficial if they announced where they stand on this at this point in time now a year after going live. I don’t necessarily believe that being hush-hush about long-term development goals is a good thing. Like “yes we are researching this” and this could trigger positive buzz about the game and it’s future. Generally, such revelations have been positive for mmo projects, driving additional interest.

As for bottlenecks or other parts of the client etc, a common misnomer is that development skills are universal. Working on rendering engines is rather specialized work, you are probably not going to benefit so much by allocating them to other tasks. Even within those departments, you have senior programmers, intermediate and jr programmers, all to their own tasks. Some doing system analysis and down to others bug hunting. Then you have development cycles as I previously posted a wiki link describing. There most likely comes a point after the initial development cycle that you don’t need as many programmers working on a specific area of the game, so you re-task them to other areas or send them off to an entirely different project within the company which best fits their skill sets. So rather than loosing those specialized programmers, it would seem more beneficial to task them to the future upgrade of the game client.

My guess is they have already started this process, at least within the research phase. But who’s to know? They have been fairly hush-hush about things concerning development so far. I don’t necessarily believe it beneficial by being so. The only real pitfalls are when you start announcing completion dates, but rough estimates often are beneficial for such projects, or just that they are or will be moving in that direction.

It shows commitment to the project. Which is opposite to some mmo games that mostly just released for the quick cash-cow and then let the game die and close, thus taking it off their books. In early mmo’s it was just obvious the commitment level, but today it’s much harder to tell since many games quickly come and go like they were just a quick money making scheme.

(edited by Daywolf.2630)

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

mantle is a console like api for the pc…….

Not likely, as is confirmed by posts on AMD twitter feed. The Mantle is present in one form or another on both X1 and PS4 as well as being available on PCs at some point.

Actually, it an api for their gcn card architecture.

I guess Amd will probably will be selling gcn cards for a very long time

What does “Actually…” refer too? Dont see anything in the quote that seems to be applicable.

The mantle api is a api exposing the low level features of the gcn architecture of their graphic cards. The only difference is that they announce for windows pc which might become political since this announcement also benefits steam OS

If Amd is not supporting the api for the pc then there will be no reason for AMD to announce this api as they can send copies of the documentation and allow either SONY or Microsoft handle the specs.

Low level access to graphic cards is new development since the glide fx cards. However, low level apis are not portable and can only be limited to the architecture they are written against

Its a shame that John Carmack doesnt have time to tweet and test the details of this new development.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

It shows commitment to the project. Which is opposite to some mmo games that mostly just released for the quick cash-cow and then let the game die and close, thus taking it off their books. In early mmo’s it was just obvious the commitment level, but today it’s much harder to tell since many games quickly come and go like they were just a quick money making scheme.

So your idea of showing commitment is announcing Direct X 11 port……

Ummm, I rather see bug fixes to game, content and other balance patches so I actually enjoy the game….

Anet is trying. They hosted a tournament. The balance team held a stog at the end of each month. Anet talks more on the forums then other games. Anet is honoring some of our request such as seperation of wvwvw and jp or the lfg.

The funny thing about the quote about too many cooks spoil the broth. Unless we have an employee list, some of these developers may have to touch many parts of the engine. Well, multi threading is hard. More time spent port direct X 11, less time they will search and find bugs. I rather let them manage their own time because they might have their own internal workflow.

Well.. here is a post they said they are working on performance issues

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-is-Performance-Never-Rarely-Addressed/page/3#post2794038

Edit: Really, I wish normal players can join their testing servers.

(edited by loseridoit.2756)

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

mantle is a console like api for the pc…….

Not likely, as is confirmed by posts on AMD twitter feed. The Mantle is present in one form or another on both X1 and PS4 as well as being available on PCs at some point.

Actually, it an api for their gcn card architecture.

I guess Amd will probably will be selling gcn cards for a very long time

What does “Actually…” refer too? Dont see anything in the quote that seems to be applicable.

The mantle api is a api exposing the low level features of the gcn architecture of their graphic cards.

Its a shame that John Carmack doesnt have time to tweet and test the details of this new development.

Your posts are extremely confusing, you seem to debate things in quoted texts that arent there…

  • Yes Mantle is a low level AMD API (we all know that), wether itll be GCN exclusive is unknown, most likely itll be supported in GCN++ but thats just speculation.
  • Mantle platform support is unknown atm, they officially stated Windows yes but they also strongly hinted at support for both X1 and PS4. Given that its a low level API with minimal platform dependencies I wouldn’t be surprised if a Linux version would be possible as well.

The only difference is that they announce for windows pc which might become political since this announcement also benefits steam OS

This sentence make no sense. Difference to what? Also how do you see a statement of Mantle support to benefit Steam OS since that is running linux.

If Amd is not supporting the api for the pc then there will be no reason for AMD to announce this api as they can send copies of the documentation and allow either SONY or Microsoft handle the specs.

Extremely confusing… I believe you are trying to say is that AMD will support Mantle for Windows otherwise they wouldn’t have made an announcement? That seems very obvious… like saying 1+1=2.

Low level access to graphic cards is new development since the glide fx cards. However, low level apis are not portable and can only be limited to the architecture they are written against

Wrong, what do you think DirectX is? Its designed as a low level platform independent API but still low level. The only thing that’s new in this scenario is that Mantle is platform specific and optimizes things farther than DirectX can.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

Wrong, what do you think DirectX is? Its designed as a low level platform independent API but still low level. The only thing that’s new in this scenario is that Mantle is platform specific and optimizes things farther than DirectX can.

wait, you think that direct X 11 is a low level api?

ok, I think I might have a problem explaining things to you.

Direct X 11 is an graphic api that abstracts hardware and provide a easy to use api. It turns out that this api have a gigantic overhead that prevents developers from extracting the full potential of graphic cards. In that sense, the api is actually pretty high level.

Mantle is a real low api that allow developers to touch hardware.

btw, platform independent and low level are kinda oxymoron terms

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

I think you should read it

(edited by loseridoit.2756)

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

Wrong, what do you think DirectX is? Its designed as a low level platform independent API but still low level. The only thing that’s new in this scenario is that Mantle is platform specific and optimizes things farther than DirectX can.

wait, you think that direct X 11 is a low level api?

ok, I think I might have a problem explaining things to you.

Direct X 11 is an graphic api that abstracts hardware and provide a easy to use api. It turns out that this api have a gigantic overhead that prevents developers from extracting the full potential of graphic cards. In that sense, the api is actually pretty high level.

Mantle is a real low api that allow developers to touch hardware.

btw, platform independent and low level are kinda oxymoron terms

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

I think you should read it

Dude you are cracking me up! Have to say thanks for that but seriously do you have ANY exposure to actually programming these APIs or are you just spouting marketing garbage?

Platform Independent and Low level are NOT opposite, I can grant you that varying complexities in the underlying layers adds costs in overhead but if you think Mantle is without overhead then you are sorely mistaken.

I can write a totally platform independent and extremely low level memory management library for instance. The complexities in these elements almost ALWAYS comes down to platform cross dependencies.

However low level HW access has minimal cross dependencies (and yes includes DirectX as well).

The 9x factors for draw calls are NOT solely because Mantle is a low level API but almost exclusively comes from better utilization of multithreading to keep the GPU busy, something that Microsoft has been really lazy updating the Direct platform to.

Before you start spouting nonsense again, know that I have over 20 years in low level embedded and graphics development and if you cant do anything except spout marketing material I see no sense in continuing the discussion.

DirectX 11?

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Posted by: azizul.8469

azizul.8469

yeah… even the old LOTRO has option to use either dx9 or dx 11….

come on ANET, this is 2013 already……..

Cutie Phantasmer/Farinas [HAX] – CD Casual
Archeage = Farmville with PK

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

Wrong, what do you think DirectX is? Its designed as a low level platform independent API but still low level. The only thing that’s new in this scenario is that Mantle is platform specific and optimizes things farther than DirectX can.

wait, you think that direct X 11 is a low level api?

ok, I think I might have a problem explaining things to you.

Direct X 11 is an graphic api that abstracts hardware and provide a easy to use api. It turns out that this api have a gigantic overhead that prevents developers from extracting the full potential of graphic cards. In that sense, the api is actually pretty high level.

Mantle is a real low api that allow developers to touch hardware.

btw, platform independent and low level are kinda oxymoron terms

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn

I think you should read it

Dude you are cracking me up! Have to say thanks for that but seriously do you have ANY exposure to actually programming these APIs or are you just spouting marketing garbage?

Platform Independent and Low level are NOT opposite, I can grant you that varying complexities in the underlying layers adds costs in overhead but if you think Mantle is without overhead then you are sorely mistaken.

I can write a totally platform independent and extremely low level memory management library for instance. The complexities in these elements almost ALWAYS comes down to platform cross dependencies.

However low level HW access has minimal cross dependencies (and yes includes DirectX as well).

The 9x factors for draw calls are NOT solely because Mantle is a low level API but almost exclusively comes from better utilization of multithreading to keep the GPU busy, something that Microsoft has been really lazy updating the Direct platform to.

Before you start spouting nonsense again, know that I have over 20 years in low level embedded and graphics development and if you cant do anything except spout marketing material I see no sense in continuing the discussion.

If you believe that being able to access the nuisances of graphic cards is marketing nonsense then I dont know what to say.

Oh well, I type until the other side rants

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Posted by: Behellagh.1468

Behellagh.1468

yeah… even the old LOTRO has option to use either dx9 or dx 11….

come on ANET, this is 2013 already……..

Yes but over three years after it first came out, just before it went hybrid/F2P. It also officially supported Dx10 6 months after it’s release. But this was back when the game was subscription only (as well as $200 lifetime subscriptions) with paid expansions.

Then there’s the question about how much exclusive Dx10 and 11 they are using over Dx9. Did they just use more complex shaders and graphics memory management or did they use more? They could use just one exclusive feature from Dx11 and say they have Dx11 support.

We are heroes. This is what we do!

RIP City of Heroes

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760


If you believe that being able to access the nuisances of graphic cards is marketing nonsense then I dont know what to say.

Oh well, I type until the other side rants

Case and point /discussion.

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

yeah… even the old LOTRO has option to use either dx9 or dx 11….

come on ANET, this is 2013 already……..

Yes but over three years after it first came out, just before it went hybrid/F2P. It also officially supported Dx10 6 months after it’s release. But this was back when the game was subscription only (as well as $200 lifetime subscriptions) with paid expansions.

Then there’s the question about how much exclusive Dx10 and 11 they are using over Dx9. Did they just use more complex shaders and graphics memory management or did they use more? They could use just one exclusive feature from Dx11 and say they have Dx11 support.

Quite right, there is even DX11 something labeled as feature levels that allow for a wide range of graphics devices. What one needs to remember is also that although DirectX is a platform independent API its not quite true, the API is (or atleast has been) evolving in close discussion with HW vendors so that the accelerated features in the API is actually provided by hardware.

If this is not the case then some features isnt available without a big loss in rendering performance (this is one of the reasons that porting DirectX to old HW is not a viable option).

You can look at the following link to get a better understanding of the various levels offered under “DirectX 11” http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff476876%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

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Posted by: Daywolf.2630

Daywolf.2630

Unless we have an employee list, some of these developers may have to touch many parts of the engine.

That’s just not how it works. Even back when I was in college, majoring in computer science, everyone had their own specialized interests. Our projects reflected this. Then when you get beyond that, you pursue jobs that best interest you and the skills you acquired. I worked a decade in specialized programming, doing things that very few people could do, in a business that had many various programmers, very much so. Worked my way up and all that, but no programmers learn to master everything. Systems are just too complex.

You would easily realize this if you got into the GDC. A lot of job advertisement goes around there. They look for specialized programmers, all the various companies that participate. They are very specific about the tasks, what they want you to have experience with. It’s just the way the world turns. But go ahead and dismiss everything I’ve shared with you, it’s just a stupid game forum anyway heh. Bliss…

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Posted by: green plum.7514

green plum.7514

About OpenGL – the main reason why it is not used for games is because high-performance OpenGL applications used to be a PITA to debug. There is still no SDK, limited developer tools (on Windows at least). In contrast, DirectX is fast, reliable, simple and very well documented.

And as far as features go… OpenGL has supported that multithreading you people are talking about for over 20 years now

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Posted by: aeneq.1760

aeneq.1760

About OpenGL – the main reason why it is not used for games is because high-performance OpenGL applications used to be a PITA to debug. There is still no SDK, limited developer tools (on Windows at least). In contrast, DirectX is fast, reliable, simple and very well documented.

And as far as features go… OpenGL has supported that multithreading you people are talking about for over 20 years now

And ofcourse the standardization process was so infuriatingly slow that Microsoft just ran past them. However that has changed the recent years and OpenGL 4.x has caught up and in some cases passed DirectX.

To some extent that has to be credited to the success of OpenGL ES in mobile devices, and ofc the OpenGL (ES) version running in PS3.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

You would easily realize this if you got into the GDC. A lot of job advertisement goes around there. They look for specialized programmers, all the various companies that participate. They are very specific about the tasks, what they want you to have experience with. It’s just the way the world turns. But go ahead and dismiss everything I’ve shared with you, it’s just a stupid game forum anyway heh. Bliss…

i didnt dismiss everything you said.

gosh, i am trying to say that some of these developers might touch many parts of the engine and forcing them to announce direct X 11 without any proper roadmap is a absurd idea.

…. Anet have been posting on the forums that they already have a full time team looking into performance issues. I wonder why you keep dismissing that….

Anet is a pretty open company and if you meet a GM waiting in game it possible they might tell you the recent developments in game.

Dawm it I an want in. I heard they have server lag parties

(edited by loseridoit.2756)