Guild Wars 2

Imagine for a moment, that you’re shopping and come across a newly installed candy machine. You dig into your pockets and find a quarter which you promptly place in the coin slot. You turn the handle, and the delicious candy starts to flow from the spout.

Red ones, green ones, yellow ones…your hands start to fill up with all the wonderful colors and your mouth starts to water. After a few seconds, you start to think, “Wow, this is a great value!”

You place the fists full of candy into your pocket, and walk away with a giant grin on your face.

A few moments later two security guards grab you and escort you to the door. They explain that you didn’t use the candy machine as intended, and because you took more candy than you should have, you are now banned from the mall for life.

Is this fair?

I have always had a huge problem with the way ArenaNet handles exploits. First, their policy is that even asking if something is an exploit is forbidden and can result in being banned. Second, if you happen to participate in an exploit, you risk having your account suspended, regardless if you knew it was an exploit or not.

The flaw in this logic is that it creates a situation in which gamers are required to guess the intended functionality or outcome. In a game where thousands of different things can happen (and is known to contain bugs), it seems like a lot to ask for players to guess which parts are working as intended and which are not. Additionally, many players bring their experiences with other games to Guild Wars 2, which may give them different expectations or understanding.

This creates a situation in which players risk losing access to the game, for something they may not even be aware is considered wrong. Those who seek more information, are told not to discuss these things, but to simply stop doing what those doing (to be on the safe side), and report what they feel may be an exploit.

The problem is that because ANet doesn’t discuss exploits, allow us to question them publicly, provide feedback to exploit reports, or warn players, it means that players risk account termination, and makes ANet look like unsympathetic bullies.

I personally feel the best solution is for ANet to start being transparent about what is, and isn’t considered an exploit. For example, it was recently discovered that players could gain the drinking achievement by using “magic bottles” found in some places around the world. A thread was started asking if this was an exploit, and ANet replied with, “We’re looking into it.”

Eventually it was patched, but what happened to those who either didn’t see the forum post, or didn’t consider it an exploit, yet now face account termination?

If ANet would allow players to inquire about potential exploits, without fear of being banned, then players could quickly find out what they should and shouldn’t be doing. From there, ANet should release in-game, and out-game messages, warning players of the exploit, and any caught using it risk having their account terminated.

This would allow players to avoid exploits they may have been unaware of, and give ANet a much more solid case for terminations.

Players shouldn’t feel scared to play the game. They also shouldn’t be permanently punished for something they may have been unaware they were even doing. Allow players to voice concerns, and address them openly and honestly. Most players, if given adequate warning will avoid these things, and create a much nicer gaming experience for all.

Only the worst offenders got banned. (200 with the snowflake exploit)

I agree with this. People are responsible for their own actions. When they willingly and consciously use an exploit (and quite often they are obvious), then they should take responsibility for the consequences.

In your example, you should have told the store that the machine malfunctioned. Did you keep some candy? Fine with me. Did you hire a minivan to store with all that candy? Not fine.

EDIT: If you have to ‘fear’ playing this game, then I am very curious what you are doing. No one I know has any fear about playing the game and those who have gotten a temporary suspension for exploits admitted they knew very well what they were doing.

New example: Mr Mage likes to use a staff. He’s level 80, and he has a good staff, but he’d like a better one. Now, he knows that if he tosses 4 rare staves into the Mystic Forge, he’ll get a different magic staff out. So, that’s what he does. Every time he gets a magic staff, he compares it to his current one. He equips the best, and holds on to the other until he has 4 spares, then tosses them into the forge for a “reroll” in the hopes of getting just the stats he wants.

One day, it doesn’t spit out a rare staff. It spits out an exotic staff. Needless to say, this doesn’t seem right at all. Hoping to not get banned, he destroys the staff, and reports the bug. That’s the right thing to do, right?

Actually, if I, in real life, saw a machine behave that way, I wouldn’t keep putting quarters into it, because it would be like stealing from that company. Instead I’d report it to the shop owner, or whoever was around. I’d probably keep the candy I did get out of it, but I wouldn’t keep exploiting it.

If a cashier gives me too much change in a shop, I let them know and give it back.

An exploit is an exploit, even in real life. It doesn’t matter if I can get away with it. What matters to me is if it’s the right thing to do.

So… The OP thinks that theft is OK. Righto.

In your example, a reasonable person would not think that receiving a giant stream of candy for one quarter is normal. Therefore the person filling up their pockets is committing theft.

If however you paid for a handful of candy (which is nominally 30 grams or something) and you got 35 grams, a reasonable person would consider that within the bounds of normality and therefore is not committing theft.

Same thing with exploits. You wind out getting an extra of something from something that wound out being determined to be an exploit? You don’t deserve the banhammer. You go nuts and clone several hundred items from that exploit? You deserve the banhammer.

That’s pretty well what ANet did. The people who went nuts and cloned hundreds upon hundreds of snowflakes got banned. No reasonable person would think that what they were able to do was expected behaviour.

Before this turns into a post personally insulting me, lets take a look at what you guys are doing.

You’re arguing against my candy example using your own previous experience. You know that because typically candy machines only give a small amount, that a candy machine that gives more must be broken.

My point is what if your experience with candy machines was limited?

You have to step back for a moment and approach this problem from the perspective of someone who may not understand why that would be considered an exploit.

To use the Mystic Forge example above, I have never used the forge. For me, anything that thing spits out is intended. I would have no idea if something wasn’t working as intended.

For example, say I threw in three items and got a Quaggan backpack. I would be pretty happy. If I did it again and got another one, I would be super happy and feel pretty lucky. If I did it a third time, I would start to wonder if perhaps something wasn’t working.

My first instinct would be to ask on the forums, or map chat. This is however forbidden, so my choice is to stop, or to continue. The problem is that I may be unaware that what I’ve done is a problem, and could log in a few hours later to find out I was banned.

You can’t simply assume that everyone understands, or has the same experience as others when it comes to what can, and can’t be done in the game. There are so many little tricks and things that one can do in the wide world of Tyria, that to ban someone without warning, or without explaining why what they are doing is wrong (nor give them any way of finding out), is not a great solution in my opinion.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Before this turns into a post personally insulting me, lets take a look at what you guys are doing.

You’re arguing against my candy example using your own previous experience. You know that because typically candy machines only give a small amount, that a candy machine that gives more must be broken.

My point is what if your experience with candy machines was limited?

You have to step back for a moment and approach this problem from the perspective of someone who may not understand why that would be considered an exploit.

To use the Mystic Forge example above, I have never used the forge. For me, anything that thing spits out is intended. I would have no idea if something was working as intended.

For example, say I threw in three items and got a Quaggan backpack. I would be pretty happy. If I did it again and got another one, I would be super happy and feel pretty lucky. If I did it a third time, I would start to wonder if perhaps something wasn’t working.

My first instinct would be to ask on the forums, or map chat. This is however forbidden, so my choice is to stop, or to continue. The problem is that I may be unaware that what I’ve done is a problem, and could log in a few hours later to find out I was banned.

You can’t simply assume that everyone understands, or has the same experience as other when it comes to what can, and can’t be done in the game. There are so many little tricks and things that one can do in the wide world of Tyria, that to ban someone without warning, or without explaining why what they are doing is wrong (nor give them any way of finding out), is not a great solution in my opinion.

Basically you cant’ get something for nothing. One of the things Anet banned people for was buying something that was ten times cheaper than all the other stuff in the same tab, for essentially the same item. It would be like looking at a candy machine and all the candy bars are $10, but you find one for ten cents, for the same thing. In theory, you might buy one or two.

But if you buy 500 of them and start to sell them for more than you paid, you’d have to know that it’s an exploit, because obviously people wouldn’t be buying them. If you can buy something for $1 that you can trade in to consistenly get something worth $10 that would be an exploit.

It’s a way of printing money. It’s completely unrealistic.

People get banned for doing questionable stuff without thinking. And a lot of people who did get banned, those who did it 500 times, had their ban overturned if they agreed to a rollback.

So I’m not sure what your point is.

Randulf.7614:

Its not an ANet policy..its the identical policy I have seen in every mmo I’ve played. We aren’t allowed to discuss them, because the risk is much higher that others – albeit briefly – may catch on and use them.

I don’t agree.

As I said before, if ANet put out a warning message to every player who logs in, explaining the exploit and the consequences of using said exploit, then all the players could make an informed decision.

I think most players would feel good about knowing that information and would make sure that they avoid the exploit at all cost. Those who disregard the message should be banned simple as that.

Keeping people in the dark, and then banning them without warning is unfair in my opinion. I also don’t know what ANet considers a “worst offender” because I have no information about who I’m being compared to. If I do something in game and then start to suspect it is an exploit, it may be too late by the time I stop.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Randulf.7614:

Its not an ANet policy..its the identical policy I have seen in every mmo I’ve played. We aren’t allowed to discuss them, because the risk is much higher that others – albeit briefly – may catch on and use them.

I don’t agree.

As I said before, if ANet put out a warning message to every player who logs in, explaining the exploit and the consequences of using said exploit, then all the players could make an informed decision.

I think most players would feel good about knowing that information and would make sure that they avoid the exploit at all cost. Those who disregard the message should be banned simple as that.

Keeping people in the dark, and then banning them without warning is unfair in my opinion. I also don’t know what ANet considers a “worst offender” because I have no information about who I’m being compared to. If I do something in game and then start to suspect it is an exploit, it may be too late by the time I stop.

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Every MMO I’ve played has had this same policy. None of them discuss exploits and all of them will ban you for exploiting.

Vayne.8563:

People get banned for doing questionable stuff without thinking. And a lot of people who did get banned, those who did it 500 times, had their ban overturned if they agreed to a rollback.

So I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is simple, unless players are given adequate information regarding the “law” of the game, then it seems unreasonable to punish them without warning. Imagine if Area 51 took down all the signs that trespassers would be shot on sight, and then started shooting hikers that wandered in.

Edit: What if hikers unsure of whether they were permitted to hike that area were jailed for even asking if it was ok?

I understand that there are people who recognize and take advantage of exploits. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the average player who doesn’t have the information, or experience to be able to recognize the difference between what is, and isn’t an exploit.

Because these average players have no way of asking the question without being banned, it creates a situation where the law is hidden, and people found guilty are sentenced without ever knowing why.

Vayne.8563:

What exactly are you disagreeing with? Every MMO I’ve played has had this same policy. None of them discuss exploits and all of them will ban you for exploiting.

Take a look at your statement for a moment please. First, you’ve said, “Every MMO I’ve played has this policy.”

Yes….meaning you have experience with MMO’s and have a general understanding of what may be considered an exploit when playing another MMO. I personally don’t have a lot of MMO experience, so I don’t have the same level of understanding or experience to make informed choices.

To your second point. Just because others have the same policy, doesn’t mean it’s a good one. You can’t argue that because everyone else it doing it, that it shouldn’t ever be questioned.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Vayne.8563:

People get banned for doing questionable stuff without thinking. And a lot of people who did get banned, those who did it 500 times, had their ban overturned if they agreed to a rollback.

So I’m not sure what your point is.

My point is simple, unless players are given adequate information regarding the “law” of the game, then it seems unreasonable to punish them without warning. Imagine if Area 51 took down all the signs that trespassers would be shot on sight, and then started shooting hikers that wandered in.

I understand that there are people who recognize and take advantage of exploits. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the average player who doesn’t have the information, or experience to be able to recognize the difference between what is, and isn’t an exploit.

Because these average players have no way of asking the question without being banned, it creates a situation where the law is hidden, and people found guilty are sentenced without ever knowing why.

Actually, people know why and learn for the next time. If something is too good to be true, it’s usually pretty obvious. And since Anet didn’t punish people who do that stuff ten or twenty times your point is pretty much a non-point.

The abusers are using stuff to get rich fast or get achievements fast. Even in real life, ignorance of the law is no excuse. It should even be that way moreso in games, where the penalty is a ban, rather than jail time.

Or do you think the lawmakers should publish every single law on every street corner too?

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Imagine for a moment, that you’re shopping and come across a newly installed candy machine. You dig into your pockets and find a quarter which you promptly place in the coin slot. You turn the handle, and the delicious candy starts to flow from the spout.

Red ones, green ones, yellow ones…your hands start to fill up with all the wonderful colors and your mouth starts to water. After a few seconds, you start to think, “Wow, this is a great value!”

You place the fists full of candy into your pocket, and walk away with a giant grin on your face.

A few moments later two security guards grab you and escort you to the door. They explain that you didn’t use the candy machine as intended, and because you took more candy than you should have, you are now banned from the mall for life.

Is this fair?

That’s a bad example. Nothing like abusing an exploit ingame.
It’s probably more like this:
You put the quarter into the machine and you get one piece of candy. But you heard from another guy that you can get four pieces of candy if you kick the machine just as you turn the handle.
Still a bad example but it’s more similar to the most common ingame exploits.

I’m not an expert at exploits but I remember something about karma weapons selling extremely cheap. I know ANet didn’t ban people who just bought one set of weapons for their character. They did however ban people who bought hundreds of weapons and salvaged / threw into MF etc..

The people who exploited that bug knew the weapons weren’t supposed to be sold for 40 karma each, instead of 4k. (I can’t remember the exact numbers but it was something similar if I recall)

I believe they ban people for using offensive language in game a bit too easy though.

And well, you can’t compare real life scenarios to ingame ones.

Vayne.8563:

Actually, if I, in real life, saw a machine behave that way, I wouldn’t keep putting quarters into it, because it would be like stealing from that company. Instead I’d report it to the shop owner, or whoever was around. I’d probably keep the candy I did get out of it, but I wouldn’t keep exploiting it.

If a cashier gives me too much change in a shop, I let them know and give it back.

An exploit is an exploit, even in real life. It doesn’t matter if I can get away with it. What matters to me is if it’s the right thing to do.

I agree completely.

Pukknub,

You’re right. Real world examples do fail pretty fast. So let me give you two scenarios, and you can tell me which you would prefer.

Player Judy:

- Guild Wars 2 is her first MMO
- She plays a few hours a week

Scenario A:

Judy is exploring a dark corner of a house and finds a bottle called “Elixir.” She picks it up and presses “2” and takes a drink. The bottle doesn’t disappear. She does it again, and it keeps going. Judy decides she’s scored and found a cool secret bottle, and proceeds to press the button 300 times.

Eventually, she starts wondering if this isn’t working as intended. She logs onto the forums and looks for a topic regarding this. Because explaining the exploit could result in being banned, she doesn’t feel confident in asking if this bottle is working as intended. Yet, because she can’t find any additional information, she’s also not sure if it’s even an issue.

She logs back in and finds out her account has been terminated due to using an exploit. Sad and frustrated, she uninstalls the game and moves on.

Scenario B:

Judy logs into Guild Wars 2 and is prompted with a message that states:

“Exploit Warning!

It has been recently discovered that there is a bottle called “Elixir” in the town of Ratville that does not work as intended. This will be fixed in an upcoming update, but any players using this bottle will risk having their account terminated."

Judy reads, and says, “Whew, ok cool…avoid that!”

See the difference? In Scenario B, Judy is an informed player. In addition all other players are also informed meaning that anyone, including Judy taking advantage of the exploit risks being banned.

It also means that Judy isn’t required to search the forums for information, because the information is pushed right to her. No guessing, no wondering, no fear, no mistakes, just informed players, making informed choices.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Pukknub,

You’re right. Real world examples do fail pretty fast. So let me give you two scenarios, and you can tell me which you would prefer.

Player Judy:

- Guild Wars 2 is her first MMO
- She plays a few hours a week

Scenario A:

Judy is exploring a dark corner of a house and finds a bottle called “Elixir.” She picks it up and presses “2” and takes a drink. The bottle doesn’t disappear. She does it again, and it keeps going. Judy decides she’s scored and found a cool secret bottle, and proceeds to press the button 300 times.

Eventually, she starts wondering if this isn’t working as intended. She logs onto the forums and looks for a topic regarding this. Because explaining the exploit could result in being banned, she doesn’t feel confident in asking if this bottle is working as intended. Yet, because she can’t find any additional information, she’s also not sure if it’s even an issue.

She logs back in and finds out her account has been terminated due to using an exploit. Sad and frustrated, she uninstalls the game and moves on.

Scenario B:

Judy logs into Guild Wars 2 and is prompted with a message that states:

“Exploit Warning!

It has been recently discovered that there is a bottle called “Elixir” in the town of Ratville that does not work as intended. This will be fixed in an upcoming update, but any players using this bottle will risk having their account terminated."

Judy reads, and says, “Whew, ok cool…avoid that!”

See the difference? In Scenario B, Judy is an informed player. In addition all other players are also informed meaning that anyone, including Judy taking advantage of the exploit risks being banned.

It also means that Judy isn’t required to search the forums for information, because the information is pushed right to her. No guessing, no wondering, no fear, no mistakes, just informed players, making informed choices.

This makes me think of:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/banned-for-335-hours/first#post1769018

I agree with the idea that exploits aren’t handled correctly.

However…

Your mock examples are awful.

You’re exaggerating far too much, to the point where you look downright foolish.

“Ta kitten I just made 6000gold by buying something from one merchant and selling to the other one, ta kitten I hope I don’t get banned. Ta kitten ”

Having a blanket statement about how to know if something is an exploit is bad, but so is players not being able to realize what an exploit is.

If you’re using game mechanics alone to produce infinite money, it’s an exploit. If you’re rubbing into terrain until you come out into a magical fairytale land where you can attack bosses without being hurt, it’s an exploit.

The exploiters know that they’re exploiting.

They can pretend to be naive all they want, but that just makes them look bad, not the company.

I’d still like 10 free laurels though, at some point. That would be nice.

Geotherma,

That is actually the post that inspired me to write this. That, and I recently did something in game I’m not sure is an exploit or not, and that post scared the crap out of me that you could be banned for something, then not even really told why.

It’s a giant guessing game and keeping players in the dark doesn’t stop exploits from happening, it just creates paranoia and screws over people making genuine mistakes.

ANet has nothing to lose by explaining exploits. They can detail exactly how the exploit is done, where it can be done, and then state anyone caught doing it will be banned. If this message needed to be confirmed by every player logging / logged in, then it would not only stop mistaken exploits, but give ANet clear and fair reason to ban those who ignore it.

Geotherma.2395:

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Pukknub,

You’re right. Real world examples do fail pretty fast. So let me give you two scenarios, and you can tell me which you would prefer.

Player Judy:

- Guild Wars 2 is her first MMO
- She plays a few hours a week

Scenario A:

Judy is exploring a dark corner of a house and finds a bottle called “Elixir.” She picks it up and presses “2” and takes a drink. The bottle doesn’t disappear. She does it again, and it keeps going. Judy decides she’s scored and found a cool secret bottle, and proceeds to press the button 300 times.

Eventually, she starts wondering if this isn’t working as intended. She logs onto the forums and looks for a topic regarding this. Because explaining the exploit could result in being banned, she doesn’t feel confident in asking if this bottle is working as intended. Yet, because she can’t find any additional information, she’s also not sure if it’s even an issue.

She logs back in and finds out her account has been terminated due to using an exploit. Sad and frustrated, she uninstalls the game and moves on.

Scenario B:

Judy logs into Guild Wars 2 and is prompted with a message that states:

“Exploit Warning!

It has been recently discovered that there is a bottle called “Elixir” in the town of Ratville that does not work as intended. This will be fixed in an upcoming update, but any players using this bottle will risk having their account terminated."

Judy reads, and says, “Whew, ok cool…avoid that!”

See the difference? In Scenario B, Judy is an informed player. In addition all other players are also informed meaning that anyone, including Judy taking advantage of the exploit risks being banned.

It also means that Judy isn’t required to search the forums for information, because the information is pushed right to her. No guessing, no wondering, no fear, no mistakes, just informed players, making informed choices.

This makes me think of:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/account/banned-for-335-hours/first#post1769018

Arenanet and GW2 is becoming nearly infamous for it’s over the top, knee-jerk reactions to undocumented and often ambiguous exploits. :-\ It’s a shame, really. It’s as if none of their customer service staff has been properly trained on how deal with such scenarios.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Scenario B:

Judy logs into Guild Wars 2 and is prompted with a message that states:

“Exploit Warning!

It has been recently discovered that there is a bottle called “Elixir” in the town of Ratville that does not work as intended. This will be fixed in an upcoming update, but any players using this bottle will risk having their account terminated."

Judy reads, and says, “Whew, ok cool…avoid that!”

See the difference? In Scenario B, Judy is an informed player. In addition all other players are also informed meaning that anyone, including Judy taking advantage of the exploit risks being banned.

It also means that Judy isn’t required to search the forums for information, because the information is pushed right to her. No guessing, no wondering, no fear, no mistakes, just informed players, making informed choices.

The opposite can occur. Thousands of players log in and see the message. Out of curiosity, they all head over to Ratville to check it out. These players then start to take a drink. Then Anet needs to lay the Ban Hammer down.

By posting a message about an exploit, you “advertise” it to everyone. Sure they can post warnings not to do something, but the fact is everyone know about it now, instead of a few. So while any bans would be justified if people got curious, it’s much better not to say anything at all. Hence the reason why game companies don’t allow talk of exploits to be out in the open. Ban a few and be done, or ban thousands, and have to deal with the fallout of thousands of player complaining.

Long story short, it’s the lesser of two evils.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Hence the reason why game companies don’t allow talk of exploits to be out in the open. Ban a few and be done, or ban thousands, and have to deal with the fallout of thousands of player complaining.

Long story short, it’s the lesser of two evils.

In this case, it isn’t. While it’s true that this works in most games, most game companies also don’t perm ban small time offenders (not just the big ones) on the first violation and for exploits that are barely recognizable as such.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

opposite can occur. Thousands of players log in and see the message. Out of curiosity, they all head over to Ratville to check it out. These players then start to take a drink. Then Anet needs to lay the Ban Hammer down.

By posting a message about an exploit, you “advertise” it to everyone. Sure they can post warnings not to do something, but the fact is everyone know about it now, instead of a few. So while any bans would be justified if people got curious, it’s much better not to say anything at all. Hence the reason why game companies don’t allow talk of exploits to be out in the open. Ban a few and be done, or ban thousands, and have to deal with the fallout of thousands of player complaining.

Long story short, it’s the lesser of two evils.

Curiosity is not an excuse. If ANet explains the exploit and then specifically tells the player they will be banned if they use said exploit, then that is all that needs to be said.

Exploits are by nature faults with how the game was created. When players stumble upon them they either:

- Realize it’s an exploit and choose to take advantage or not
- Don’t realize it’s an exploit and take advantage unknowingly
- Don’t realize until later that it could potentially be an exploit and choose to stop or not

The problem is that there are probably a lot of players who fall into the second two. The experienced MMO players who seek out, or take advantage of exploits when found should be banned without question. All the other players need a better way of being informed before they stumble into a dangerous situation.

Telling people about the exploit means that it’s now in the open and considered off limits until it can be corrected.

If someone chooses to go and try it out for fun, then they deserve to be banned. Simple as that. If you’ve been warned, and you go against that warning, then you deserve to be banned no matter who you are, or your reasons behind it.

Tolmos.8395:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Hence the reason why game companies don’t allow talk of exploits to be out in the open. Ban a few and be done, or ban thousands, and have to deal with the fallout of thousands of player complaining.

Long story short, it’s the lesser of two evils.

In this case, it isn’t. While it’s true that this works in most games, most game companies also don’t perm ban small time offenders (not just the big ones) on the first violation and for exploits that are barely recognizable as such.

That’s part of the problem. Having “small time offenders” get away with it just like saying “it’s ok to use an exploit, as long as you do it only once.”

By not advertising it, you don’t have the problem of “small time” or “big time” exploiters, or having to figure out at what point to differentiate between a suspension or ban.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

opposite can occur. Thousands of players log in and see the message. Out of curiosity, they all head over to Ratville to check it out. These players then start to take a drink. Then Anet needs to lay the Ban Hammer down.

By posting a message about an exploit, you “advertise” it to everyone. Sure they can post warnings not to do something, but the fact is everyone know about it now, instead of a few. So while any bans would be justified if people got curious, it’s much better not to say anything at all. Hence the reason why game companies don’t allow talk of exploits to be out in the open. Ban a few and be done, or ban thousands, and have to deal with the fallout of thousands of player complaining.

Long story short, it’s the lesser of two evils.

Curiosity is not an excuse. If ANet explains the exploit and then specifically tells the player they will be banned if they use said exploit, then that is all that needs to be said.

Exploits are by nature faults with how the game was created. When players stumble upon them they either:

- Realize it’s an exploit and choose to take advantage or not
- Don’t realize it’s an exploit and take advantage unknowingly
- Don’t realize until later that it could potentially be an exploit and choose to stop or not

The problem is that there are probably a lot of players who fall into the second two. The experienced MMO players who seek out, or take advantage of exploits when found should be banned without question. All the other players need a better way of being informed before they stumble into a dangerous situation.

Telling people about the exploit means that it’s now in the open and considered off limits until it can be corrected.

If someone chooses to go and try it out for fun, then they deserve to be banned. Simple as that. If you’ve been warned, and you go against that warning, then you deserve to be banned no matter who you are, or your reasons behind it.

You still don’t get it. It’s human nature to be curious. And by NOT saying anything, no one will be tempted to bite that forbidden fruit.

I already said that bans would be justified because of the warning. It’s less of a hassle to deal with banning so many, when they only had to ban a few.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

That’s part of the problem. Having “small time offenders” get away with it just like saying “it’s ok to use an exploit, as long as you do it only once.”

By not advertising it, you don’t have the problem of “small time” or “big time” exploiters, or having to figure out at what point to differentiate between a suspension or ban.

That’s why advertising it works, because it eliminates the need to determine who is “small time” or “big time” because everyone who participates after is an offender simple as that.

“The law says don’t use this exploit, if you do it a little, or a lot, you will be banned. So stay away from it until we can fix it.”

That seems much more fair than some arbitrary cut-off point that ANet decides. Why is 200 times ok, but 210 times not. An exploit is an exploit and if you are aware of the exploit and choose to take advantage of it, then 1 time is all that is needed. Fair for everyone.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Tolmos.8395:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Hence the reason why game companies don’t allow talk of exploits to be out in the open. Ban a few and be done, or ban thousands, and have to deal with the fallout of thousands of player complaining.

Long story short, it’s the lesser of two evils.

In this case, it isn’t. While it’s true that this works in most games, most game companies also don’t perm ban small time offenders (not just the big ones) on the first violation and for exploits that are barely recognizable as such.

That’s part of the problem. Having “small time offenders” get away with it just like saying “it’s ok to use an exploit, as long as you do it only once.”

By not advertising it, you don’t have the problem of “small time” or “big time” exploiters, or having to figure out at what point to differentiate between a suspension or ban.

So instead they just permban everyone, regardless of whether they accidentally stumble upon it or maliciously abuse it, as opposed to warning the population and only getting those who would knowingly abuse it.

Cause that makes so much more sense >_>

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You still don’t get it. It’s human nature to be curious. And by NOT saying anything, no one will be tempted to bite that forbidden fruit.

I already said that bans would be justified because of the warning. It’s less of a hassle to deal with banning so many, when they only had to ban a few.

I’m sorry, but that argument just doesn’t work for me. It’s every players responsibility to act appropriately while playing the game. The rules are in place to give players guidelines to follow…this is just like in the real world.

If ANet gives explicit warnings about an exploit and someone ignorantly decides to be curious and check it out, then how is this even an argument? You can’t justify your argument by saying that people are too stupid to be able to resist.

By keeping the exploit in the dark, and not allowing people to discuss or ask about it, you are trying to enforce a law by obscurity. This just doesn’t work in reality.

I get what you’re trying to say, but it’s a poor way of dealing with a problem. Just hoping people won’t stumble across it and only having to ban those who were unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is unfair.

Tolmos.8395:

So instead they just permban everyone, regardless of whether they accidentally stumble upon it or maliciously abuse it, as opposed to warning the population and only getting those who would knowingly abuse it.

Cause that makes so much more sense >_>

You said it much better than I did.

I personally think that by advertising exploits it would drastically cut down on the need to ban players. Most people who enjoy the game would simply avoid the situation because curiosity isn’t worth the risk of losing hours and hours of work.

Those who would seek to use the exploit anyway (or those stupid enough to dismiss the warnings) are probably the players who would have used exploits regardless. The difference is that it eliminates all the bans due to mistaken or misinformed players.

It’s a much better solution in my opinion and it would mean a lot less work for ANet to figure out what constitutes a mistake, and someone genuinely exploiting.

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

You still don’t get it. It’s human nature to be curious. And by NOT saying anything, no one will be tempted to bite that forbidden fruit.

I already said that bans would be justified because of the warning. It’s less of a hassle to deal with banning so many, when they only had to ban a few.

I’m sorry, but that argument just doesn’t work for me. It’s every players responsibility to act appropriately while playing the game. The rules are in place to give players guidelines to follow…this is just like in the real world.

If ANet gives explicit warnings about an exploit and someone ignorantly decides to be curious and check it out, then how is this even an argument? You can’t justify your argument by saying that people are too stupid to be able to resist.

By keeping the exploit in the dark, and not allowing people to discuss or ask about it, you are trying to enforce a law by obscurity. This just doesn’t work in reality.

I get what you’re trying to say, but it’s a poor way of dealing with a problem. Just hoping people won’t stumble across it and only having to ban those who were unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is unfair.

You still don’t understand. As a game company, it’s much less of a hassle to deal with banning THOUSANDS of players rather than a FEW. Why the potential big difference? People those THOUSANDS of people didn’t know about the exploit to begin with.

Let’s make this crystal clear. If they were warned not to do it, and they do it, they deserve the ban. No arguments there. But by avoiding the temptation to exploit, a game company can:

1) Lessen the number of people whom they need to ban
2) Maintain higher number of players who potentially will do micro transactions
3) Lessen the man-hours needed to answer Support Tickets of people crying over their lost accounts.

The other problem that can occur with publicizing potential exploits is that it can lead people to look for similar situations that might be exploitable. And because there is no specific warning for the new exploit, people will complain if they get banned for using it.

Astraea.6075:

The other problem that can occur with publicizing potential exploits is that it can lead people to look for similar situations that might be exploitable. And because there is no specific warning for the new exploit, people will complain if they get banned for using it.

Good point Astraea. Never even considered that as a possibility.

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

Gladly! Just let me know what is considered and exploit and I won’t do it. Simple ya?

If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.
If it feels wrong, if it feels like it is way too easy/profitable/almost cheat worthy, it is probably an exploit. Allowing everyone to know of every exploit or loophole would only lead to masses of players attacking it assuming “hey, I can do this because everyone is so should be ok”.

Imagine for a second that Microsoft said “Today we have X exploit, also there are 973,386,347 other exploits people aren’t aware of. Let us list them, and their possible outcomes for you all.” Why that would be a hackers dream. Instead think of the updates you get constantly. Those are patches, which you can liken to GW2 patches. Yes some are content, and some are simply bugs, but also in there whether written or not are probably exploits. Blatantly admitting to flaws in a system to the crowd only allows for people to try and circumvent any mechanics that could detect them doing it. It furthers the exploit by adding a sense of “Oh you CAN’T do this!” And a savvy gamer will come back with, “Watch me!” They admit the problem after it has been fixed, hence the updates. It is much better to work on exploitable things in the dark and find fixes than to let everyone know they are there. It makes no sense to tell everyone all the holes, just so that everyone can teeter on the edge to see how close they can get without falling in. Give MMO’s some credit, they weren’t born yesterday. Well at least not this one.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

1) Lessen the number of people whom they need to ban
2) Maintain higher number of players who potentially will do micro transactions
3) Lessen the man-hours needed to answer Support Tickets of people crying over their lost accounts.

These are all reasons why the exploits SHOULD be advertised.

1) Lessen the number of people who they need to ban by making sure that everyone is aware that this is indeed an exploit.
2) Maintain a higher number of players who will potentially do micro transactions by ensuring that those who might stumble across said exploit will be aware that it is something they should avoid.
3) Lessen the man-hours needed to answer Support Tickets of people crying over their lost accounts, since everyone who exploited will have done so after being warned that what they were doing was an exploit, thus limiting the number of people who can try to use ignorance as an excuse.

Geotherma.2395:

If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Context matters here Geotherma. In a fantasy game where crazy stuff happens all the time, random drops happen from every creature, and there are achievements for drinking 100,000 bottles of wine, it seems kinda hard to tell what is too good to be true.

What about those who happened to get 3 – 5 tickets for the new weapons? That seems too good to be true to me, are they doing an exploit? What about those who make enough gold to buy the best weapon in game, that seems too good to be true to me, are they using exploits?

Too good to be true means nothing without context, especially when not everything is so obvious as you make it out to be.

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

Common sense can spot an exploit quite easily and that’s the end of the matter. An account is not going to be banned for anything on the borderline and there really is very little on the borderline.

Geikamir.6329:

ProphetSword.5427:

I will say the same thing that I always say when these threads pop up. There’s this thing that comes with the game called the EULA. You click on it and agree to its terms when you first run the game.

According to that EULA, you agree not to exploit. And, you agree that your account can be terminated/banned at any time without notice for violation of the rules. That is your warning. It was given when you read the EULA (you read it, right?)

You can moan about it all you want, but you agreed to those terms. It’s a done deal. Don’t exploit.

I don’t think you’ve read this thread.

I completely with the OP. Not telling citizens the law and then punishing them based off of these mysterious hidden rules is inherently unfair. Just saying “Don’t commit crimes!” doesn’t count. What exactly are the crimes I shouldn’t commit?

This. The way these exploits are currently handled is akin to a city having a one way street but not putting any notification of it or signs about it anywhere. Then suddenly, months later, sending everyone who went the wrong way on that street a ticket in the mail. When asked what happened, their reply would simply be “We didn’t intend for you to drive that direction. It’s not our fault you didn’t realize that.”

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

When it comes to games, it’s never about “you did this wrong” it’s about the integrity of the game, and in this case, the integrity of the in-game market. (which for some reason ANet think’s the game will implode a billion time’s over if it isn’t reinforced with perma-bans)

“Exploit” is now just a blanket word to cover a vast number of things in game…just because.

And I bet this will get closed sharpish, just for bringing it up.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

Geotherma.2395:

If something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Context matters here Geotherma. In a fantasy game where crazy stuff happens all the time, random drops happen from every creature, and there are achievements for drinking 100,000 bottles of wine, it seems kinda hard to tell what is too good to be true.

What about those who happened to get 3 – 5 tickets for the new weapons? That seems too good to be true to me, are they doing an exploit? What about those who make enough gold to buy the best weapon in game, that seems too good to be true to me, are they using exploits?

Too good to be true means nothing without context, especially when not everything is so obvious as you make it out to be.

I can agree with context. But, crazy stuff is perspective. If you paid for 3 keys and get 3 tickets, or 5 tickets, how is that an exploit? If you have a feeling after reading how others spent $300, then send an email. Dear Arenanet, I have gotten a ton of tickets, it feels a little too good to be true. So I STOPPED doing this and emailed to protect myself." Is that hard? Nope. Anyone can do it. And we can’t judge people on what they can afford, because that is our opinion and perception on what can be achieved in what amount of time. Whether our knowledge be limited or vast doesn’t really matter here. What does is that we understand that mechanics that seem funky, out of place, or get us something that feels generally way too easy, is probably not good. If you play the game for 20 hours you have an idea of how hard things are. If you walk to maw and click ore and you click again and get more ore, well do you keep going? Sure, it could just be a bonus or something. Whether or not you know about those bonuses doesn’t matter. But now you click 8 times, more ore? Something is funny. Bam, in comes email (because forum posting this exploit is against the rules. And besides, why put others in harms way?). So then you have your shield, soft as it may be, it is there. And you have proof that you contacted them and asked. Things don’t have to be obvious to be figured out. I’d like to assume the general gaming population has a decent amount of intelligence.

Does X give you X every time? Does X give you 10000000X’s every time? have you asked people if this happened to them? When in doubt assume it might not be ok if you are getting a reward for doing something entirely too simple. This isn’t farmville, if you click something and it allows you to get something other players take months/years to get, that seems fishy. If you hopping up a mountain, and somehow get rewards others are down below fighting for, probably a fishy scenario.

Step 1: Can you apply ethics to it.
You did very little work, and yet huge reward. Is this common, or is this luck? Search for an answer.

Step 2: Does it seem too easy?
A 10 second email will let you know if it is ok or not ok, and that email is your protection that you did not know.

Step 3: Did you keep doing it, knowing that it seemed fishy and unfair?
If yes, prepare for Gailes banhammer.
If no, then good job, wait for that reply.

tldr: KISS:Keep it simple stupid. Rewards are called rewards because they are earned. If it took nothing to earn, or required spamming some button/item/place/thing, it probably is not legit. When in doubt, email it out.

PS: if you have an example of other MMO’s who deal with exploits differently pelase list. Or have ideas that have worked in other MMO’s please list. Otherwise, the franchise, the MMO world, and devs are working as intended.

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

When it comes to games, it’s never about “you did this wrong” it’s about the integrity of the game, and in this case, the integrity of the in-game market. (which for some reason ANet think’s the game will implode a billion time’s over if it isn’t reinforced with perma-bans)

“Exploit” is now just a blanket word to cover a vast number of things in game…just because.

And I bet this will get closed sharpish, just for bringing it up.

I’m sorry, but have you read this post? Where did I say that people shouldn’t be banned for taking advantage of exploits?

Where did I say stealing is justified?

Please pay attention and read the posts before muddying up the discussion with irrelevant nonsense.

Thanks,

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

What you say to do with pricing is true as you can’t sell things above the price that’s advertised however if you were to withdraw £20 from a cash machine and it gave you 100 by mistake you are liable.

Here’s another problem that a couple of people here don’t see. Exploits can vary, ranging in size and scope. One of the other reasons why a game company won’t explain (advertise) what exploits are is something Astraea brought up. I’ll go deeper into his point.

If you say “Item A exists with an exploit, and you can be banned for exploiting it”, but you come across Item B with a similar problem, one could argue that it’s not an exploit, since the game company didn’t specifically say so. It might not have been as large or profitable as Item A, so some might see this as ok. Then when you get banned, you argue that the game company didn’t specifically say it was an exploit, and thus waste many Support Team man-hours.

Couple that with my point, where advertising an exploit just leads to potentially more people trying it out for themselves.

If it were easy, every single game in existence wouldn’t have exploits. However, bugs happen. It’s the players responsibility to not abuse the system, should they come across it. Those who argue against this are mainly those who were caught red handed.

sinzer.4018:

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

What you say to do with pricing is true as you can’t sell things above the price that’s advertised however if you were to withdraw £20 from a cash machine and it gave you 100 by mistake you are liable.

The problem is that in that example I know the expected outcome. If I put $20 into a lotto machine and it gives me $20000, how am I to know if that was intended or not?

If the casino doesn’t put a sign on the thing saying, “Out of order” and a bunch of people happen along and do the same thing, you can’t just arrest everyone for taking advantage of something they weren’t even aware of.

The point is, if you don’t have the experience to understand what is considered typical behaviour for something (especially in the context of other strange things), then it seems strange to fault someone who hasn’t been given proper warning.

Just let me know what is an exploit, and I’ll avoid it…simple as that.

“In-game Infractions
The following will result in either a temporary account suspension or permanent account termination, depending upon the severity of the matter:

Abusing game exploits
Advertising cheats, hacks, or exploits
Using, developing, releasing, or promoting a “bot,” cheat, or exploit program."

General outlines. If you are making bank on something you will/should get a warning. Now if you are sitting there spamming something that is clearly fishy for hours, days, weeks. You deserve the ban. You can always email and request an appeal. If you weren’t in the wrong, or not too far into the wrong, you could probably get back in. They take these on case by case basis. So all your information will be gathered and documented and analyzed. Usually the truth prevails, whether or not it is in your favor is a different story.

Where do you get the idea you can’t ask if something is an exploit? File a support ticket.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

sinzer.4018:

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

What you say to do with pricing is true as you can’t sell things above the price that’s advertised however if you were to withdraw £20 from a cash machine and it gave you 100 by mistake you are liable.

The problem is that in that example I know the expected outcome. If I put $20 into a lotto machine and it gives me $20000, how am I to know if that was intended or not?

If the casino doesn’t put a sign on the thing saying, “Out of order” and a bunch of people happen along and do the same thing, you can’t just arrest everyone for taking advantage of something they weren’t even aware of.

The point is, if you don’t have the experience to understand what is considered typical behaviour for something (especially in the context of other strange things), then it seems strange to fault someone who hasn’t been given proper warning.

Just let me know what is an exploit, and I’ll avoid it…simple as that.

Im not arguing with you, i don’t think someone should be liable in the circumstance i pointed out but generally ignorance isn’t accepted as a legal defence regardless of my personal feelings on the matter.

I don’t think someone should face any repercussions for unknowingly using an exploit. The difficulty is where to draw the line between someone innocently using an exploit without knowing it and someone abusing an exploit purposefully. It’s not an easy line to draw.

Crazylegsmurphy.6430:

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

When it comes to games, it’s never about “you did this wrong” it’s about the integrity of the game, and in this case, the integrity of the in-game market. (which for some reason ANet think’s the game will implode a billion time’s over if it isn’t reinforced with perma-bans)

“Exploit” is now just a blanket word to cover a vast number of things in game…just because.

And I bet this will get closed sharpish, just for bringing it up.

I’m sorry, but have you read this post? Where did I say that people shouldn’t be banned for taking advantage of exploits?

Where did I say stealing is justified?

Please pay attention and read the posts before muddying up the discussion with irrelevant nonsense.

Thanks,

Hey crazy,
I actually wasn’t referring to your post as the “justifying stealing post”, hence, “Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.”
I didn’t say you were, in fact, i was laughing at one person in particular that did say you were.

Then off of the back of your analogy, I threw in comment in relation to if it were in the UK, you weren’t liable for an error in part of the company. etc

Not too sure why you’re considering my post as an attack on yours.

sinzer.4018:

nethykins.7986:

Heavy Lulz at people thinking OP is endorsing theft.

In the UK at least, if something’s malfunctioned, or not working as intended and gives you more than it should have, it’s in the companies best interest to fix it, and customers don’t, blame is placed on them. Same goes for mis-labeled items in shops. If you see it mis-labeled at £9.00 instead of £90.00, you get that item for that £9.00 until someone goes and fixes that label.

What you say to do with pricing is true as you can’t sell things above the price that’s advertised however if you were to withdraw £20 from a cash machine and it gave you 100 by mistake you are liable.

What about if you go and buy a stuffed animal for $1. You think “Hey, this is a really nice stuffed animal, I bet people would actually pay more for it if I resold it.” You buy 1000 of them, put a bow on their head, and resell at a higher price. Then you get a subpoena to court saying you are being sued because they meant to put the price at $10. This would never hold up. That’s basically how flipping houses works.

Durian.5419:

Where do you get the idea you can’t ask if something is an exploit? File a support ticket.

They don’t respond to you whether it’s an exploit or not.

Durian, I think asking if something is an exploit is ok, as long as you don’t open a discussion about it in the forums. By doing so, it turns into advertising.

Geotherma saved me time by quoting the rules. Thanks mate. Those general outlines help a lot. It’s sad that some people need to have their hands held, and individual situations explained one by one.

Anet Devs have said numerous times that if you come across something that seems like an exploit, STOP doing it, and use the report function in game.