Guild Wars 2

http://massivelyop.com/2015/11/04/ncsoft-q3-2015-financial-report-guild-wars-2-wildstar-all-game-sales-down/

There is something that stands out to me as a customer and I’ve had this feeling for a while now… I really see a “slim” game here with some great elements, but it’s still “slim” and under developed in many areas. Now I won’t go into specific details of profession development, combat aspects, content, reward structures, bltc/store stuff… but I will say this…

I could see what’s happening with the game and this is a clear confirmation…

“Of note is that the third quarter report stretches only to the end of September, thus predating both WildStar‘s shift in business model and Guild Wars 2‘s first expansion release. During the conference call, NCsoft said it has been focused on cost-efficiency and expects fourth quarter revenues to improve, referencing Guild Wars 2 specifically. Fans of the aforementioned games should keep their eyes peeled for next quarter’s results.”

“cost-efficiency” means reinvesting the bare minimum to turn some profit in this case.

Sadly, this can be seen in many aspect of the game and why EVERYTHING is bltc (gem sales) centric… Don’t worry, I understand that this is a play for free game and they need to earn a profit somehow…, but that’s not the point here or the issues I’m talking about…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why we only have a single new map now for wvw and nothing else…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why the raid is so tiny and boring, thus needing to be gated by these boss mechanics… and why we don’t even have a preview of legendary armors that were touted as the ultimate rewards…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why events like winter festival are so underwhelming… and the focus is more on material and karma “sinks” (for very very very poor rewards) and taking away, as opposed to meaningful rewards in return for these “sinks” and “giving” back to the loyal fan base that has been here supporting this game…

“Cost-efficiency” is why MEANINGFUL profession development and combat system improvements have been neglected despite these areas being the ABSOLUTELY MOST IMPORTANT AND VITAL ASPECTS of this game…

“Cost-efficiency” is why we are very “meta” content “light” and why everything it turning into mastery and reward tracks…. So instead of simply amazing content, with amazing professions to play, that is highly repayable on mere fun factor alone… we have an artificial life extender as THE “retention” tool. Now I don’t mind the reward and mastery track stuff, I believe they are good, but here it is used to mask gaping holes and flaws instead of being a ++enhancement.

I hope the mentality and over arching goal to “just save money” through “cost-efficiency” doesn’t command gw2 2016… because that is not doing this game or the players any justice… Plus it doesn’t look good either to those paying attention.

I would like to suggest that after the wvw update is put in that this year become the year of very very very serious profession improvements and development. Also, better reward structures and better bltc items and services…

Edit- I would like to add one thing. I fully understand that fantasy is the most popular genera for mmos, but there was a gem of a game that was shut down by ncsoft. That game was city of heroes… To date, there is not one, not a single one game, to ever capture the “heroic feeling” for players individually and as a team. That game made characters central to the entire experience, and still is hands down the absolute best “profession” and “powers” design of any game period. There is no game on the market, to this day, that can match all things “profession” and roles and combat… Those design structures and frame works are what to use to rebuild professions and combat here if you (Anet) want to have THE most kick kitten video game out in the mmo universe…

Edit- thanks mzt.3270 for posting this link…

http://fortune.com/2015/11/24/areanet-investing-in-esports/

So as of October we have 3.1 million concurrent monthly users…

Anet wants to push esports which I support, but you can’t have esports with these profession/class designs and certain poor combat designs and major imbalances and limited build viability and subpar role designs and very few meta worthy builds and lots of other not so good stuff…

3.1 million is even more reason and incentive to have ncsoft dump more cash into Anet to improve profession and make some great things happen with the game…. Major profession and combat development will allow esports to grow… It will improve the experience for players in all aspects of the game… Better $ reinvestment will help to finish up projects and make it easier to build some awesome new things and systems and qol features…

GW2 can get there, but it can’t get there on budget tires…

I feel you man. Very old games didn’t even have expenses like voice acting so you could focus more on gameplay mechanics and level design rather than story elements, which just needed to offer the player an excuse. Mario was a classic with a very basic plot: rescue kidnapped princess from big lizard guy. Along the way you needed to avoid traps and pitfalls, getting hit means you become tiny Mario or lose a life. Likewise in Final Fantasy it was all about resource conservation, plot was minimal but good enough. Four warriors save the world. The menu based combat left a lot to your imagination, so much cool stuff potentially happening. Things are less epic when everything is done for you usually. Games became “safer” and more cartoony on many fronts. This happens a lot in different industries. In the old days buildings suggested they were from a certain time and place, had cultural relevance and actual art. These days a new building in America and new building in China look very similar: plain, dull, etc., instead of the pagodas or 1800’s stuff you actually want to see. When you say, “Notice the beautiful building?” everyone knows exactly what you’re talking about, and it isn’t the plain tall glass structures or listless Brutalist structures but something from a bygone era. Modernity lends itself to cost-effectiveness, efficiency, and convenience, valuing these above even art and creativity and that’s my personal theory why settings gravitate towards medieval, steampunk, or futuristic (where creativity comes into play with alien civilizations and a whole universe ripe for exploration whereas a modern setting has the entire planet logically charted and explored while being far too primitive to even leave the solar system). Gaming is trending in the same direction, boring neutrality becoming the norm in order to maximize “cost-efficiency”.

I think you might be reading this article wrong. This sentence:

“During the conference call, NCsoft said it has been focused on cost-efficiency and expects fourth quarter revenues to improve, referencing Guild Wars 2 specifically.”

Now, a lot of this has to do with comma placement, but I read this as they’re focusing over all on cost-efficiency, and they’re expecting fourth quarter revenues to improve referencing Guild Wars 2 specifically. The cost cutting measures are what all companies say when profits are down.

So Guild Wars 2, according to the article, profits were down “a bit”. That’s a three year old game that had yet to have an expansion, and had a content drought that lasted many months. Of course profits were down a bit.

I don’t see this is the doom and gloom that I’m reading from your article.

We’ve seen no layoffs. We have seen hiring. I’m not thinking this is really an issue at this point.

One more thing. We got one new map in WvW, because the rest of the changes weren’t done yet. It’s not that we’re not getting more changes to WvW. They simply didn’t have them ready for the release of HoT. Throwing more money at those sorts of issues don’t necessarily make them move any faster.

We’ve seen four changes in the sneak preview for WvW for sometime early next year, again not the big changes, and that preview was very well received by the WvW player base (which is shocking in and of itself).

It’s easy to read an article in something like MMORPG and let your fears carry you away but in reality, it’ll be another six months to a year before we know how well Guild Wars 2 is actually doing, now that the expansion has been released.

Using the words “cost efficiency” explains a lot…

I’ll reference your 1 wvw map reply… Yes, goes to show how things are pieced bit by bit together as per usual… Fully aware there is more. The larger points stand.

Edit- I even mentioned the wvw update to come…

Yeah, good old “cost-efficiency”…
Nobody takes pride in their work anymore, and those that do, end up getting laid off due to “cost-efficiency” as well…
That’s alright, when a product shows signs of scrimping by, I usually use my own form of “cost-efficiency” by spending my money elsewhere. Sadly, that doesn’t actually teach the lesson it should to companies. Instead of making better products, they just churn out new things in hopes of snagging some money before the hype dies, then churn out the next thing. Rinse, repeat.

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

The question is, are Anet and NCSoft even working together still? There was a load of speculation a few months ago that Anet were trying to separate, however, no official statements came out of it. References to NCSoft were removed from the EULA for GW2, and if you haven’t noticed, theres no NCSoft logos on any Heart of Thorns related stuff.

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

paintpixie.7398:

Yeah, good old “cost-efficiency”…
Nobody takes pride in their work anymore, and those that do, end up getting laid off due to “cost-efficiency” as well…
That’s alright, when a product shows signs of scrimping by, I usually use my own form of “cost-efficiency” by spending my money elsewhere. Sadly, that doesn’t actually teach the lesson it should to companies. Instead of making better products, they just churn out new things in hopes of snagging some money before the hype dies, then churn out the next thing. Rinse, repeat.

Yup. Cost efficiency is a very prevalent thing now a days… I understand the benefits of not being wasteful and doing things the smart way, but yeah, the “scrimpiness” is in full effect here in many ways…

considering that NCSoft is no longer Anet’s publisher… how exactly does it matter what NCSoft says in their business meeting?

Vayne.8563:

We’ve seen no layoffs. We have seen hiring. I’m not thinking this is really an issue at this point.

That would depend on what everyone at ANet is doing.

If there’s a second project (and given ANet’s size, there really should be), then the staff on GW2 can drop even while they hire more people.

I’m not saying that this IS the case, as I have no way of knowing if it is or isn’t, but it’s a possibility we have to consider.

Forgotten Legend.9281:

considering that NCSoft is no longer Anet’s publisher… how exactly does it matter what NCSoft says in their business meeting?

NCSoft still owns ANet. ANet’s profit is NCSoft’s profit.

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

Yeah, you need apply “cost efficiency” in a different way in this case…

Proof is in the pudding my friend. Ncsoft is using cheap ingredients to make their food… Also, bringing only individual items to the table at a time to eat, not a fuller meal at once…

It shouldn’t surprised anyone that GW2 earnings dropped this year… the game suffered from a total drought of new content from the end of LS2 until the launch of the expansion pack. That meant almost nine solid months of nothing new to stimulate interest in the game.

It also shouldn’t surprise anyone that the expansion pack got released in such an unfinished state. They had to rush it out before Christmas to boost up sales.

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

Yeah, you need apply “cost efficiency” in a different way in this case…

Proof is in the pudding my friend. Ncsoft is using cheap ingredients to make their food… Also, bringing only individual items to the table at a time to eat, not a fuller meal at once…

You mean twist the definition to mean something entirely different than what it actually means?

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

Yeah, you need apply “cost efficiency” in a different way in this case…

Proof is in the pudding my friend. Ncsoft is using cheap ingredients to make their food… Also, bringing only individual items to the table at a time to eat, not a fuller meal at once…

You mean twist the definition to mean something entirely different than what it actually means?

No, cost savings to fill the coffers instead can be seen… You are not paying attention to the game and all the messages and areas talked about.

I’m not going to negotiate the precise definition of “cost efficiency” because those are just words used to spin doctor what is truly happening… The quote I used was for a conference call to investors and shareholders… It’s a business call, not a message to gamers…

I’m not sure you could find me a single business in existance that doesn’t aim for “cost efficiency.”

Coulter.2315:

I’m not sure you could find me a single business in existance that doesn’t aim for “cost efficiency.”

The question here is if it’s going to come at a cost to the game.

ANet is usually very happy to mention their “iterative development” process for this game, but that’s not really a cost effective way to do things. It was a case of attempting to put quality first. It’s also a likely target for any cost efficiency measures.

Another area is making the developed content last longer. Again, that’s a normal goal for any game company, but only up to a limit. When that becomes too big of a development concern, you start to get tail chasing and grind. It’s fair to say that there’s a lot of concern about that in HoT.

OmniPotentes.4817:

I predict fourth quarter profit figures will be abysmal. I’m not buying the expansion unless it’s offered at a substantial discount. I feel sorry for all who got conned.

4th quarter will probably be quite good due to HoT sales and milking the populous through the gem store. What I want to see is their next quarterly report when those that are being milked have either run dry or have decided to leave the farm.

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

Yeah, you need apply “cost efficiency” in a different way in this case…

Proof is in the pudding my friend. Ncsoft is using cheap ingredients to make their food… Also, bringing only individual items to the table at a time to eat, not a fuller meal at once…

You mean twist the definition to mean something entirely different than what it actually means?

No, cost savings to fill the coffers instead can be seen… You are not paying attention to the game and all the messages and areas talked about.

I’m not going to negotiate the precise definition of “cost efficiency” because those are just words used to spin doctor what is truly happening… The quote I used was for a conference call to investors and shareholders… It’s a business call, not a message to gamers…

The only one doing spin doctoring of that term is you. You have a preconceived opinion on how you feel about this game and the direction Anet is going. You then found that article. You changed the meaning of that term so it better fit with your viewpoint.

What I find interesting about the article is the following:

• There was a large dip from the Q3 2014 US/EU Sales by Region, from 38,622M KW to 25,818M KW. This was a decrease of 12,818M KW. In that period, Wildstar sales declined from 16,007M KW to 1,727M KW. That’s a drop of 14,280, 1.462M KW more than the overall decrease. GW2, on the other hand, increased by slightly more than 1M KW in that period. This means that the decrease in US/EU sales is all on WS.
• Q2 2015 GW2 sales were higher than Q3 14, and if you bother to look them up, higher than Q1 15 and Q4 14 as well as the Q3 15 figure show in the article. What caused this? The figures don’t show us, but HoT prepurchase opened on June 23, 7 days before the quarter ended. One possible conclusion is that sales spiked due to immediate adopters buying HoT. Sales then tailed off a bit in Q3 15, though that figure is still higher than Q3 14, Q4 14 and Q1 15.
• Expectations of increased sales by GW2 in 4Q15 are most likely expectations that HoT sales after the XPac’s release will be up, along with Christmas gifting of HoT, and/or gem items.
• Much more revealing numbers come from comparisons of sales of GW2 in prior years (i.e., 2012 and 2013). Those drops are much more pronounced, and likely represent the game aging. It’s interesting to note that GW2 sales in Q2 and Q3 15 when HoT was on sale did not get as high as 1Q14 (25,142M KW). From this it’s possible to conclude that a B2P sales model relying only on XPac sales is not going to be all that lucrative when your fan base is not measured in the 10’s of millions that some other games enjoy.

All that said, I find the OP to be heavy on conclusions, but short on analysis. Questions I’d ask are:

• What effect did ANet taking over the publishing of GW2 from NCSoft have on the financial arrangements between the parent and subsidiary? Obviously, NCSoft is still reporting GW2 sales as part of their overall package. However, what effect did this have on NCSoft expenses?
• For that matter, what effect did the change have on ANet’s internal costs? How did that change affect ANet operating expenses, and thus their design strategy?
• What does “publishing GW2” mean with regard to whether NCSoft cost saving measures have any effect on ANet?
• What effect did a myriad of other factors, such as choice of engine and the various design tools available to ANet developers mean for content production?
• What effect does the fact that many MMO players want to play “their” MMO a lot (many hours a day, 7 days a week, month after month after year) have on MMO developers (not just ANet) choosing to resort to “an artificial life extender as THE “retention” tool”?
• What effect does the fact that the physiology of “fun” means that — for most people, at least — no content can retain its attraction indefinitely based on its own merits?

I could go on, but perhaps the point is clear. These answers are not available, and without them, the OP’s conclusions are suspect. I find it unlikely that an MMO failing to provide “simply amazing content, with amazing professions to play, that is highly repayable on mere fun factor alone” is based simply on a cost-cutting measure.

This is not to say that there is not a segment of the player-base which is dissatisfied with Anet’s production of the game. This is true of every MMO I’ve ever paid any attention to, so it’s no surprise that it’s so for GW2.

OmniPotentes.4817:

I predict fourth quarter profit figures will be abysmal. I’m not buying the expansion unless it’s offered at a substantial discount. I feel sorry for all who got conned.

Profits will be up.

I’m actually glad I bought the expac right away because I was able to do all the content while there were boat loads of players on each map… I completed all mastery stuff (except a couple of the last ones because I’m saving mastery points) with ease… I also have all HP on most characters and all elites unlocked across 8 characters…

I’d suggest buying now while there are still players on these maps… If you wait until a sale then you’ll be kicking yourself for not jumping on the bandwagon now…

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company, it would make zero sense for a company to focus on cost efficiency for any other reason. It only benefits the customer if they pass the cost savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t happening.

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

Vayne.8563:

I think you might be reading this article wrong. This sentence:

“During the conference call, NCsoft said it has been focused on cost-efficiency and expects fourth quarter revenues to improve, referencing Guild Wars 2 specifically.”

We’ve seen no layoffs. We have seen hiring. I’m not thinking this is really an issue at this point.

and so where is your PROOF of there being NO lay off or getting fired humm?

One more thing. We got one new map in WvW, because the rest of the changes weren’t done yet. It’s not that we’re not getting more changes to WvW. They simply didn’t have them ready for the release of HoT. Throwing more money at those sorts of issues don’t necessarily make them move any faster.

We’ve seen four changes in the sneak preview for WvW for sometime early next year, again not the big changes, and that preview was very well received by the WvW player base (which is shocking in and of itself).

WVW is all but pretty much DEAD !!!

It’s easy to read an article in something like MMORPG and let your fears carry you away but in reality, it’ll be another six months to a year before we know how well Guild Wars 2 is actually doing, now that the expansion has been released.

andit does not take 6 mo,s to see the state of this game at all. and we dont need the 6

months for that . to know how the game state is . and my proof on this is look at the

NA server lists when you log into the game before you go to play . there used to be

4 FULL servers and no one could get on them at all even with the free transfer way .

and now as of a hour ago there is ONLY ONE full server in the NA server lists and

maybe 3 or 4 at best very high servers . and the rest of the servers in the NA servers list

is at best medium . and this all has taken place since hot came out. and only goes to

show how bad need of major fix,s the game is in need of and with major changes . and

the dropping of E sports will be a good start . but we all know that Anet will not do that

now iam not knocking you . iam just asking you show your proof is all. and this is only

my take on the reports . like i said iam not knocking you iam just saying what is really

been seen in the game its self

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me? Also “most optimal return” is a manipulative way of saying “highest profit” which means resources will be focused on just that.

IndigoSundown.5419:

What I find interesting about the article is the following:

• There was a large dip from the Q3 2014 US/EU Sales by Region, from 38,622M KW to 25,818M KW. This was a decrease of 12,818M KW. In that period, Wildstar sales declined from 16,007M KW to 1,727M KW. That’s a drop of 14,280, 1.462M KW more than the overall decrease. GW2, on the other hand, increased by slightly more than 1M KW in that period. This means that the decrease in US/EU sales is all on WS.
• Q2 2015 GW2 sales were higher than Q3 14, and if you bother to look them up, higher than Q1 15 and Q4 14 as well as the Q3 15 figure show in the article. What caused this? The figures don’t show us, but HoT prepurchase opened on June 23, 7 days before the quarter ended. One possible conclusion is that sales spiked due to immediate adopters buying HoT. Sales then tailed off a bit in Q3 15, though that figure is still higher than Q3 14, Q4 14 and Q1 15.
• Expectations of increased sales by GW2 in 4Q15 are most likely expectations that HoT sales after the XPac’s release will be up, along with Christmas gifting of HoT, and/or gem items.
• Much more revealing numbers come from comparisons of sales of GW2 in prior years (i.e., 2012 and 2013). Those drops are much more pronounced, and likely represent the game aging. It’s interesting to note that GW2 sales in Q2 and Q3 15 when HoT was on sale did not get as high as 1Q14 (25,142M KW). From this it’s possible to conclude that a B2P sales model relying only on XPac sales is not going to be all that lucrative when your fan base is not measured in the 10’s of millions that some other games enjoy.

All that said, I find the OP to be heavy on conclusions, but short on analysis. Questions I’d ask are:

• What effect did ANet taking over the publishing of GW2 from NCSoft have on the financial arrangements between the parent and subsidiary? Obviously, NCSoft is still reporting GW2 sales as part of their overall package. However, what effect did this have on NCSoft expenses?
• For that matter, what effect did the change have on ANet’s internal costs? How did that change affect ANet operating expenses, and thus their design strategy?
• What does “publishing GW2” mean with regard to whether NCSoft cost saving measures have any effect on ANet?
• What effect did a myriad of other factors, such as choice of engine and the various design tools available to ANet developers mean for content production?
• What effect does the fact that many MMO players want to play “their” MMO a lot (many hours a day, 7 days a week, month after month after year) have on MMO developers (not just ANet) choosing to resort to “an artificial life extender as THE “retention” tool”?
• What effect does the fact that the physiology of “fun” means that — for most people, at least — no content can retain its attraction indefinitely based on its own merits?

I could go on, but perhaps the point is clear. These answers are not available, and without them, the OP’s conclusions are suspect. I find it unlikely that an MMO failing to provide “simply amazing content, with amazing professions to play, that is highly repayable on mere fun factor alone” is based simply on a cost-cutting measure.

This is not to say that there is not a segment of the player-base which is dissatisfied with Anet’s production of the game. This is true of every MMO I’ve ever paid any attention to, so it’s no surprise that it’s so for GW2.

I gave specific examples of the pieced together development by what we see being implemented. There is no speculating… Fact that we have a mini raid and no legendary armor to even view is not a speculation. Nor is 1 wvw map while the rest of wvw is in production. Nor profession neglect that has been pointed out many times in and out of these forums… Those are facts… And that’s where “cost efficiency” come into play…

The message seems to be do not do any thing that wild star did.

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

Jski.6180:

The message seems to be do not do any thing that wild star did.

You would think that would be a no brainer.

I guess all those out of work devs had to go somewhere; just to bad it had to be here.

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

And you were wrong. But you still ignore the fact that “the most optimal return” is about focusing on profit. The only “return” is profit. Which is more in line with what the OP said than what you’ve been saying.
As far as what has been happening in the game itself, look at the rewards in HoT. 3 armor sets & 3.5 weapon sets for an entire expansion. That’s absolutely ludicrous. I’ve never seen an expansion so anemic. Now that I think about it, They already have moved features to be “cost efficient”. After the xpac they came out with a record number of Gem Store armor & weapons.

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

No, no no… You’re not going to make up words or make assumptions from my op to make make a failing argument… I never said anything about “cutting product features”…

Tommyknocker.6089:

Jski.6180:

The message seems to be do not do any thing that wild star did.

You would think that would be a no brainer.

I guess all those out of work devs had to go somewhere; just to bad it had to be here.

That would be the biggest thing to pull from the info the true “message to the devs” other then that your more or less trying to make things up from data that strongly shows something else. Ya you could say something about lesser things (all though 3Q 14 was lower for gw2 then 3Q of 15 so they did something right there and most of the over all lost from Q to Q was WS for NCsoft a more then one game businesses) but your dealing with two data sets that may not relate all that well due to out side factors such as a blunt 3Q to 3Q etc.. not a 1Q to 2Q etc.. composition.

you can feel cost cutting measures at every turn with hot. everything feels cheap and mean. it’s as if john smith took over and everyone else is just sitting in their cubicle hoping they have a job next week.

there was quite a stir when an ex lotro dev posted on forums revealing missteps turbine made with development http://lotrocommunity.com/forum/topic/3465-lotro-pvpersare-they-really-that-bad/?page=3#entry112183 (for those interested scroll down to the posts by aylwen) . this is a long read so get your popcorn. but so much of what this dev is saying rings true with gw2 now.

i’m not saying the situations are identical but certainly we see the same lack of vision and the release of a small expansion with lotro that we are seeing now with gw2. anet obviously has vastly more resources than turbine does but…the games feel eerily similar in development terms.

gw2 is obviously healthy but how long can it endure the stinginess and lack of vision of colin and john smith? and not just how long can it last (lotro has endured) but how long will it maintain it’s appeal to long time fans of the franchise?

they have moved so far from the original game’s vision that one has doubts they are even aware of the damage they do..surely they are aware of players leaving but their solution is to design another grindy system.

notes- check the wintersday ‘event’ (a truly empty and lazy shell of an event) for the most recent example of anet cheapness …further examples abound of course

In short, the focus is to reinforce and expand the table so it doesnt buckle under the ever growing weight.

Selkirk.4218:

you can feel cost cutting measures at every turn with hot. everything feels cheap and mean. it’s as if john smith took over and everyone else is just sitting in their cubicle hoping they have a job next week.

there was quite a stir when an ex lotro dev posted on forums revealing missteps turbine made with development http://lotrocommunity.com/forum/topic/3465-lotro-pvpersare-they-really-that-bad/?page=3#entry112183 (for those interested scroll down to the posts by aylwen) . this is a long read so get your popcorn. but so much of what this dev is saying rings true with gw2 now.

i’m not saying the situations are identical but certainly we see the same lack of vision and the release of a small expansion with lotro that we are seeing now with gw2. anet obviously has vastly more resources than turbine does but…the games feel eerily similar in development terms.

gw2 is obviously healthy but how long can it endure the stinginess and lack of vision of colin and john smith? and not just how long can it last (lotro has endured) but how long will it maintain it’s appeal to long time fans of the franchise?

they have moved so far from the original game’s vision that one has doubts they are even aware of the damage they do..surely they are aware of players leaving but their solution is to design another grindy system.

notes- check the wintersday ‘event’ (a truly empty and lazy shell of an event) for the most recent example of anet cheapness …further examples abound of course

I agree with things you are saying, but the cost cutting measures are not anet’s fault, nor individual developers or staff.

If you make a quality product…. people will buy it.

Gw2 had the potential to be the best MMO ever created…. and instead, Anet chose to squeeze as much money out of people as they could while delivering a mediocre gaming experience.

If they simply put the quality of their product before the dollar signs, the revenue would have followed.

Instead, they went for the money…. and now they have a mediocre product and mediocre income.

…and things are only going to get worse as time goes on until they either release quality content, or they no longer have the funds to continue pretending.

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

And you were wrong. But you still ignore the fact that “the most optimal return” is about focusing on profit. The only “return” is profit. Which is more in line with what the OP said than what you’ve been saying.
As far as what has been happening in the game itself, look at the rewards in HoT. 3 armor sets & 3.5 weapon sets for an entire expansion. That’s absolutely ludicrous. I’ve never seen an expansion so anemic. Now that I think about it, They already have moved features to be “cost efficient”. After the xpac they came out with a record number of Gem Store armor & weapons.

Nope. The OP is misusing the term “cost efficiency” as are you. Nowhere was I dismissing return as being profit. You’re just choosing to assume that I was since I didn’t specifically call it out. Cost efficiency isn’t about cutting features from products. It’s about reducing and minimizing wasted resources.

Based on what I’m seeing, you’d probably consider McDonalds taking fries out of their value meals as being cost efficient.

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

No, no no… You’re not going to make up words or make assumptions from my op to make make a failing argument… I never said anything about “cutting product features”…

Okay…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why we only have a single new map now for wvw and nothing else…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why the raid is so tiny and boring, thus needing to be gated by these boss mechanics… and why we don’t even have a preview of legendary armors that were touted as the ultimate rewards…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why events like winter festival are so underwhelming… and the focus is more on material and karma “sinks” (for very very very poor rewards) and taking away, as opposed to meaningful rewards in return for these “sinks” and “giving” back to the loyal fan base that has been here supporting this game…

All of which you’re implying that Anet chose not to include some things because they’re trying to be “cost efficient”.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

If you make a quality product…. people will buy it.

Gw2 had the potential to be the best MMO ever created…. and instead, Anet chose to squeeze as much money out of people as they could while delivering a mediocre gaming experience.

If they simply put the quality of their product before the dollar signs, the revenue would have followed.

Instead, they went for the money…. and now they have a mediocre product and mediocre income.

…and things are only going to get worse as time goes on until they either release quality content, or they no longer have the funds to continue pretending.

Here’s the thing, though, Anet lacks the proper financial support from ncsoft… If they had better financial backing, gw2 would be one of the most kick kitten mmo out there over time…

I guarantee that with the right and “beefed up” support, Anet could make a game to rival wow someday…

Swagger.1459:

I agree with things you are saying, but the cost cutting measures are not anet’s fault, nor individual developers or staff.

yeah and i don’t want to make it seem like i’m blaming the mid level people (many of whom are just glad to be working and gw2 might not actually be the game they even like-a point brought up by the lotro devs). but someone is to blame and colin has to be that someone (as the most prominent voice/figurehead for the game).

everything they do now is so small and limited. they spend years designing weapon skins for legendaries (no talk of mounts/player housing/or even fun things like fishing). the player base has actually gotten sucked into the limited ideas of colin and john smith-to the point where we are basically begging for things that should be a given (new armor sets).

the entire spectacle is disheartening (hey i used to love this game!). the game has been diminished so much that if you couldnt play core game (could only play hot) it would feel unrecognizable. everything is so small in design and evidently so complicated that by the time it arrives it feels pathetic.

here’s hoping we have something grand in store(pun not intended) for 2016-but based on the track record i dont think we can expect much. more bleeding of the loyal fanbase all in the vain hope that new players will like this diminished product.

notes-perhaps its best that anet doesn’t try to include mounts. even thinking about the systems they would introduce causes headaches (perhaps mount for free but the halter costs 1000 elonian squares and saddle a multiple of that).

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

No, no no… You’re not going to make up words or make assumptions from my op to make make a failing argument… I never said anything about “cutting product features”…

Okay…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why we only have a single new map now for wvw and nothing else…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why the raid is so tiny and boring, thus needing to be gated by these boss mechanics… and why we don’t even have a preview of legendary armors that were touted as the ultimate rewards…

“Cost-efficiency” is the reason why events like winter festival are so underwhelming… and the focus is more on material and karma “sinks” (for very very very poor rewards) and taking away, as opposed to meaningful rewards in return for these “sinks” and “giving” back to the loyal fan base that has been here supporting this game…

All of which you’re implying that Anet chose not to include some things because they’re trying to be “cost efficient”.

Nope. Wrong again. This is an ncsoft funding issue. Anet lacks the proper funding to produce and drop in whole “products” or more complete “products” in a timely manner and pace so things are pieced in or neglected because very hard choices have to be made. They do however need to compete with other games by adding “features” to their list. This is not an Anet issue, it’s the “big wig” issue…

You’re not going to get anywhere with me or these arguments by making assumptions. Sorry.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

If you make a quality product…. people will buy it.

Gw2 had the potential to be the best MMO ever created…. and instead, Anet chose to squeeze as much money out of people as they could while delivering a mediocre gaming experience.

If they simply put the quality of their product before the dollar signs, the revenue would have followed.

Instead, they went for the money…. and now they have a mediocre product and mediocre income.

…and things are only going to get worse as time goes on until they either release quality content, or they no longer have the funds to continue pretending.

The the thing ppl have bought it but there is no reason to buy it agen.
The only real way for a game like that to keep going is to sell other things to make money. In a lot of ways your suggesting that good games with this system will need to be re-bought over and over to stay alive and for them not to try to sell you new things for that game.

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

DarksunG.9537:

Ayrilana.1396:

Swagger.1459:

Ayrilana.1396:

It only seems bad because of the definition you made up for cost efficiency.

Pay attention to most of the game and the development, and you’ll see the effects of “cost efficiency” in action. Put things into better context…

Cost efficiency is using all of your resources (which have costs) to produce a product or service with a maximum outcome. It’s simply using your existing resources efficiency.

No, it’s using as few resources as you can to get maximum return. Cost efficiency benefits the company. It only benefits the customer if they pass the savings to the customer by lowering costs. & that sure as heck isn’t going to happen.

No. It’s using your existing resources the best so that you can to get the most optimal return. It’s not about cutting product features.

I can’t see where I wrote cutting product features, can you point that out for me?

You specifically didn’t but the OP did so I was using that in the context of this thread and subsequently the post.

And you were wrong. But you still ignore the fact that “the most optimal return” is about focusing on profit. The only “return” is profit. Which is more in line with what the OP said than what you’ve been saying.
As far as what has been happening in the game itself, look at the rewards in HoT. 3 armor sets & 3.5 weapon sets for an entire expansion. That’s absolutely ludicrous. I’ve never seen an expansion so anemic. Now that I think about it, They already have moved features to be “cost efficient”. After the xpac they came out with a record number of Gem Store armor & weapons.

Nope. The OP is misusing the term “cost efficiency” as are you. Nowhere was I dismissing return as being profit. You’re just choosing to assume that I was since I didn’t specifically call it out. Cost efficiency isn’t about cutting features from products. It’s about reducing and minimizing wasted resources.

Based on what I’m seeing, you’d probably consider McDonalds taking fries out of their value meals as being cost efficient.

Then you can’t see very well. Taking fries out of value meals is cost efficient if it makes them more money (or the same amount) at less cost to them. Since most people wouldn’t buy the meals at that point, it would not be cost efficient. But what you are saying is that Anet will increase profits by rearranging a few logistics or increasing the workload or output of their workers. To most of us that’s hilariously unrealistic, especially with the game industry’s history of over-working their employees. It is far more likely that they’ll do what they have been doing: moving assets that could be fun rewards from the playable game to the Gem Store. (a feature of HoT you’ve conveniently ignored) There is no other explanation for having a record number of Gem Store items & a record low number of rewards in an expac. You can stay in your “Anet can do no wrong” world or you can be slightly logical & know that cost efficiency is for Anet’s benefit only unless they pass savings or additional features to us (additional features only being meaningful to Anet if it makes them more money).

It’s also possible that it’s just business talk who’s only purpose is to sate investors. Either way, your ignorance of the armor/weapon features of HoT tells most of us all we need to know about your preconceived notions of Anet. & they don’t match up with reality.

People are always quick to blame NCSoft for all of Anet’s failings. While there may be some truth to it, the primary source of GW2’s problems is that Anet does not understand its own players — leading to the waste of dev time that they do have.

Just look at the new borderlands for WvW. Clearly Anet had some time and resources to put into it. Yet they completely and utterly failed to deliver a map that WvW players wanted to play. That’s 100% on Anet.

Swagger.1459:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

I gave specific examples of the pieced together development by what we see being implemented. There is no speculating… Fact that we have a mini raid and no legendary armor to even view is not a speculation. Nor is 1 wvw map while the rest of wvw is in production. Nor profession neglect that has been pointed out many times in and out of these forums… Those are facts… And that’s where “cost efficiency” come into play…

You are asking us to conclude with you that “cost efficiency” is the issue behind your observations. You’ve not looked at other possible issues that may have produced the effects. Thus, your analysis is flawed. Flawed analysis means suspect conclusions.

MMO developers failing to provide everything that MMO consumers might want at the pace those consumers prefer is the state of the genre. It certainly is not something unique to GW2. Nor is it new with regard to GW2. There have been complaints about GW2 content provision, lack of new profession mechanics, lack of attention to WvW, etc. since very shortly after the game launched. I’m sure that costs are a factor in that dynamic, but this is not something new.

Lord Kuru.3685:

People are always quick to blame NCSoft for all of Anet’s failings. While there may be some truth to it, the primary source of GW2’s problems is that Anet does not understand its own players — leading to the waste of dev time that they do have.

Just look at the new borderlands for WvW. Clearly Anet had some time and resources to put into it. Yet they completely and utterly failed to deliver a map that WvW players wanted to play. That’s 100% on Anet.

Sure, Anet is not infallible, but we are talking about the root of the problem here… $$$

GW2 to me is one of the most polished games I’ve tried. I have played many MMOs and all of of them there are huge bugs that haven’t been fixed in months or even years. and I’m talking big bugs like skills not working or doing 10x the damage they should.
I know every game has things they have to fix and improve, but when I see people complaining about GW2 I truly wonder if they have really played other MMOs (excluding WoW probably)

IndigoSundown.5419:

Swagger.1459:

IndigoSundown.5419:

- snip -

I gave specific examples of the pieced together development by what we see being implemented. There is no speculating… Fact that we have a mini raid and no legendary armor to even view is not a speculation. Nor is 1 wvw map while the rest of wvw is in production. Nor profession neglect that has been pointed out many times in and out of these forums… Those are facts… And that’s where “cost efficiency” come into play…

You are asking us to conclude with you that “cost efficiency” is the issue behind your observations. You’ve not looked at other possible issues that may have produced the effects. Thus, your analysis is flawed. Flawed analysis means suspect conclusions.

MMO developers failing to provide everything that MMO consumers might want at the pace those consumers prefer is the state of the genre. It certainly is not something unique to GW2. Nor is it new with regard to GW2. There have been complaints about GW2 content provision, lack of new profession mechanics, lack of attention to WvW, etc. since very shortly after the game launched. I’m sure that costs are a factor in that dynamic, but this is not something new.

Anet’s financial resources from ncsoft are too low and then spread too thin. That’s the main problem. This game deserves a very hefty injection of cash from the masters. Until then, it’s going to be continuous patchwork quilting on every project… That’s a problem.

I believe GW2 has the potential to be the number 1 flagship game for ncsoft. It needs a big cash boost…