Guild Wars 2

Can somebody explain to me the logic behind the current trait point system other than trying to make it in tune with the Chinese version? At level 30 before, I could have had an extra 200 stat points, now I only have 50 extra stat points. At level 66 before, I had 560 extra stat points, now I have 400. Then it suddenly increases in pace as I get near level 80. Who the kitten designed this kitten? So let’s say we keep with the plan to stay in tune with the Chinese version. We get points starting level 30. We have 50 levels to distribute 14 trait points. Why do you make us wait too long to get the extra stat points (every six levels), instead of adjusting it to every 4 levels? What is it with level 66 anyway, is that the age of maturity where your character is supposed to lose his/her virginity, so that’s why you get 2 trait points by then? Is that the level you meet the z-z-z-zombeees in Orr?! Holy kitten anet. Can’t you make something as forgiving to the players as this:

Level/Points earned/Total points
30/1/1
34/1/2
38/1/3
42/1/4
46/1/5
50/1/6
54/1/7
58/1/8
62/1/9
66/1/10
70/1/11
74/1/12
78/1/13
80/1/14

Before, at level 66, you get 560 extra points, now you get 400 extra points. Using my system you get 500 extra points at level 66. Really, Anet, can’t you design something better? Do you even play your kitten, or just design everything in your head? Have you been playing your game as a level 1 leveling up to level 80 before finalizing this kitten? Have you tested this from the point of view of a real player, not from a point of view of a dev (or even an alpha tester) with insta-levels?

The distribution of the points is easy with the new system. But I really don’t like the spacings. Or when I start to get them. I have 2 level 80’s and 5 others toons at varyus levels below 40. And I’m not looking forward to leveling them after what I have been reading. It sounds like we are now being forced to level one way and not the way we want too. Also I’ve read they PS missions are now near impossible to the level your ment to do them dew to the fact you don’t have the traits you use to have. So I think the game is in a need of rebalancing for the fact that players are not as powerful as they once where. I’ve only had a quick read of the patch notes but I didn’t ready anything about a game wide rebalance for this, which is after all a massive game changing up date. There is a lot in the patch to be excited about. And I love the missions to unlock the traits. Reminds me of skill capping in guild wars. I really do feel the distribution of atribute points needs to be reworked or a full game rebalance to of set this.

This was easily the worst change in the patch. First, unlike some other things like the vacant servers, there was nothing wrong with traits. Second, it makes more sense to hunt for new skills, but I guess that takes too much effort on their part. Third, the distribution of trait points is atrocious and breaks the entire game by causing hyperbolic scaling when the game was designed around linear scaling.

I feel pretty certain at this point they aren’t capable of doing anything that isn’t incredibly kitten.

This is pretty much the most stupid leveling up system in any MMO ever.

How I would like this trait system fiasco changed:

Put everything back to the way it was before the update, then

1. Do not scale down the bosses and mobs in the lower levels. They were fine the way they were. Now they are so easy higher level heroes cannot accompany lover level friends in the lower areas. Either the higher level char doesn’t have any fun or the lower char doesn’t get a chance to even hit anything.
2. Use the old trait points with chars accumulating them every level starting at 11 as in the past or if the new 1 for 5 points are used start them at 15 and have heroes get 1 of them every 5 levels.
3. Leave the level that master and Gmaster traits are opened at 40 and 60, as before.
4. Have the option of buying or performing a task or achievement to open traits but make those tasks appropriate to the level of the the hero. That means no task needed for an adept trait in an area rated for 40 or above, no master trait task in an area rated at 60 or above.
5. Have alternate tasks for those who may only want to play wvw or PvP. So there would be 3 options to acquire each trait – buy, pve task or PvP task.

sablephoenix.1593:

The cost to unlock all traits on one character by purchasing manuals was 3 gold 10 silver.

The cost to unlock all traits on one character by purchasing them directly is 38 gold.

This is an increase of more than twelve times (12.26 to be precise).

This is unconscionable.

The free armor repairs were a really nice smokescreen for this (and the extra WP costs now).

Gibson.4036:

I have four 80s, two close to 80, and one 30-something character. I was dismayed to see all of my traits on my mid-level character disappear into ArenNets strange choice to fix something that wasn’t broken.

I’m glad I had 7 of the 8 professions grandfathered in to not unlocking traits (with the exception of the new ones).

I’m not sure I want to finish leveling that 30-something, and I definitely won’t be filling my eighth slot with a new character until this new trait system is massively reworked.

I am not very happy with the current implementation either but people did ask for this so it isn’t just something that ANet wanted to change. Maybe not exactly this but there certainly plenty of request for something like it in the CDI. I believe it was the horizontal progression one.

In my opinion they got too heavy handed at trying to “persuade” people to go unlock through stuff instead of just buying the trait guides. The two options should have been equally desirable. People could have picked them based on personal preferences. Right now the setup is more “you could buy the trait guides but you really shouldn’t”. They did the same with ascended accessories being purchasable with laurels.

Khisanth.2948:

Right now the setup is more “you could buy the trait guides but you really shouldn’t”. They did the same with ascended accessories being purchasable with laurels.

Actually, the setup is more “You should go out there to collect your trait but you can’t because you can’t reach the area so you better buy them so you can actually do something in the area where you would normally be able to get them”.

This is just one of the many ways in which the post-April 15th game was made harder on new characters, or especially on brand new players. New characters on an old account at least have the accumulated gold of the previous characters to help mitigate their costs. Entirely new players will be forced to accumulate most of their traits through play, and that means they’ll be heavily restricted on what they can actually build for the entirety of their leveling process, since so many Adept level traits are locked behind level 80 content.

As I have 7 level 80’s I am not too affected by this, but I will absolutely not buy an 8th slot.

What I loved about the game was that it very well lived up to “play how you want” as per the Manifesto. I burned out on games due to the lack of this and gw2 got me back into things. It was fun for me right from the start And as I explored I found the things which I really loved to do, and had no need to waste time doing things I dislike because it was required.

The “choices” now are a total turn off for me. This change alone, " play what we tell you or spend unreal/impractical amounts of skill points and heavy gold" just flies in the face of what the game began as. I find it obnoxious, actually.

For those who like it, great. I find it to be unacceptable and it has removed what made the game fun. No 8th character for me unless this is drastically altered.

Had the game began like this, I would never have started it. Plenty of games have a prescribed grind one must adhere to, and I have no interest in that sort of thing anymore.

I’m a heavy alter. Being forced to repeat the same content again and again just to unlock traits doesn’t sit well with me. Furthermore, I like to speedlevel my alts, which has been punished as well, because few of these alts will have enough SPs to buy both their skills and unlock their traits.

I now have to decide on a build beforehand, and buy/unlock the traits so I have the build for what I want to do. It feels to me that GW2 has moved away from ‘play the way you want to play.’ This might work for the Asian market, but needs some serious tweaks for the Western one.

Suggestions: Allow traits to be unlocked per account; allow other currencies to be used to buy traits for people that enjoy other content, like badges or dungeon tokens; reduce SP costs or increase scroll drops.

The worst thing is, have you looked at some of the events you must do to unlock traits? Adept level traits that become potentially available at level 36 can be gained by completing story dungeons at level 59 or 70?! I have no objection to having to earn traits (and I can say this because I have 17 characters, 12 of which are level 80), but the work necessary to unlock a trait should be appropriate to that level of character. Of course, the main problem is not only the effort now needed to unlock a trait, but the tremendous expense of doing so as the alternative. So, let’s see. We can now retrait our characters for free (instead of the max 3s 50c), but we will never retrait, because it costs too much to bother getting more traits than we absolutely need. One of my characters is brand new and reached 36 today, which is how I discovered just how stupidly this change was made. I have an additional 2 slots that I was going to use, but now I don’t know if I will bother. (Yes, I know, 19 characters is too many. I like making new and different characters, so sue me.) Anet is forcing me to play the way they think I should, not the way I want to. I don’t like it, and I won’t be buying more character slots.

sablephoenix.1593:

The cost to unlock all traits on one character by purchasing manuals was 3 gold 10 silver.

The cost to unlock all traits on one character by purchasing them directly is 38 gold.

This is an increase of more than twelve times (12.26 to be precise).

This is unconscionable.

You do not have to spend any more to get all traits now than you had to before, but you have the option to spend even less.

The new trait system, as other have noted, is a very poorly implemented excellent idea. In my opinion it is also the most worrisome part of the recent update. The system is much harder on new players than established players and creates a “barrier to entry” that is likely to result in fewer new players staying with the game over time. To thrive, every MMO needs a constant, healthy supply of new players to replace those who (inevitably) leave the game.

First Suggestion: Get rid of the unnecessary and unwarranted delay in attaining traits. Delaying them an additional 10 levels was completely unnecessary and did not improve game play at all. In fact you went the exact opposite direction you should have gone. Players should begin earning trait points every 5 levels after level 10. They should have an incentive to hunt for traits and see the attainment of traits as part of developing the character. Backloading/delaying the availability of traits until well into the game makes that portion of the game more onerous than it should be.

Second Suggestion: Traits should be separately earnable within both PvE and WvW (I am assuming PvP character have access to all traits, if not they should). I think your community thought the message about not forcing them to play styles they did not like had penetrated – apparently not well enough. Anet should move the WvW obtained traits into PvE and open up a CDI with the WvW community focusing on how players who focus on that area of the game can earn the traits by playing WvW.

Third Suggestion: The biggest issue with earning the traits (as opposed to buying them) is clearly with the adept level traits. The work needed to unlock a trait should be appropriate to the level of the character that would be using the trait. This is all too often not the case. Also, all three trait tiers need variety in how the traits are earned. ANet should open up a CDI for each of the races and/or classes that focuses on PvE and solicit suggestions for different methods for each race and/or class to earn each of the traits.

Fourth Suggestion: You missed an opportunity to add build diversity with the update. There is no good reason to have mandatory traits. There never has been. There are no mandatory skills. There should be no mandatory traits. The basic level traits at each tier (Adept, Master and Grandmaster) should be simply another option to choose from. So, for example: the 16 total traits would become available in two sets (Basic, Advanced) in each of three tiers: Adept – Basic #1-4; Adept – Advanced #1-7; Master – Basic #1-10, Master – Advanced #1-12, Grandmaster – Basic #1-14; Grandmaster – Advanced #1-16. As part of the CDI in Suggestion #2 ANet should solicit community feedback on the rank/number/order of the traits as well. ANet has consistently failed to acknowledge some of their traits are extraordinarily underwhelming or simply completely outclassed by other options, and while they will have to pull the wheat from the chaff, here’s a hint – players asserting that “Executioner” is an Adept – Basic trait are trolling, those that think “Hard to Catch” is a Adept – Basic or Adept – Advanced trait are not.

Fifth Suggestion: Do not allow players to buy traits. If you have a sane, reasonable trait reward system that does not mix PvE and WvW you do not need, nor should you have a short cut system. You don’t allow players to buy skill points or levels, don’t allow them to buy traits. Earning traits becomes part of the process of learning how to play your profession. BTW: Those who think buying the traits is a gold sink are right to some extent, however, it seems to me more of a skill point sink.

well the truth is this system is designed to make the leveling process weaker, and incentivize people to want to level up to get to the real game. They are going to be making it take more exp to level, and give more skillpoints to those who pay monthly in china.

Im sure there are some differences in our version, but they definately want people to feel like they need to level up more. This is not the only reasons for the design, its also the fact that level 40-60 was the lull phase, by moving the traits to later, it gives you more desire to push through these levels and get to the real game. They also have the most amount of work for traits in this level range, to fill the gap and be less boring. As well as give you other directions between story mode.

The problem is? they have now moved that big boring play gap to say 10-30. Since exp doesnt go that much faster after 10, its basically the same amount of time of boredom. Its also making it boring at a time when most people are past the new phase, and not at the commited to the game phase.

A better answer would be to create new bonus traits/skills that you can begin hunting at 40-80. Problem? well that would mean a lot more new skills/traits than we have seen… ever since release. So they decided to leverage existing systems and use old assets.

But even with that implementation its bad. i will more carefully run through the big flaws in a post later.

I leveled a toon to 46 after the patch.
Overall I like the new system more,but I have a few remarks.
Pre lvl 30.
You could start unlocking traits a bit earlier,at lvl 20 maybe?
You could add some of the starter trait unlocks to lower level maps.
Weapon skills take no time to unlock,utility slot skills take no effort to unlock given the amount of sp scrolls people have amassed,so what that adds up to is a bit boring
leveling process form 1 to 30.
After lvl 30.
The intervals at which you gain trait points should be made clear to the player in the beginning.
It would be nice to have markers of trait unlock locations on the map,so you won’t
have to go through the list of traits to check out the ones available in the zone you are in.
I liked the option to buy traits with gold and sp.It’s an good alternative for content you don’t want to play.

Aenaos.8160:

I leveled a toon to 46 after the patch.
Overall I like the new system more,but I have a few remarks.
Pre lvl 30.
You could start unlocking traits a bit earlier,at lvl 20 maybe?
You could add some of the starter trait unlocks to lower level maps.
Weapon skills take no time to unlock,utility slot skills take no effort to unlock given the amount of sp scrolls people have amassed,so what that adds up to is a bit boring
leveling process form 1 to 30.
After lvl 30.
The intervals at which you gain trait points should be made clear to the player in the beginning.
It would be nice to have markers of trait unlock locations on the map,so you won’t
have to go through the list of traits to check out the ones available in the zone you are in.
I liked the option to buy traits with gold and sp.It’s an good alternative for content you don’t want to play.

definately feels like the game starts at 30 post patch.

and it also feels like you play not expecting to actually play as you wish till you reach higher level.

that said going out with goals, and going to some interesting content is good, i generally like the stuff in mini dungeons, or requiring environmental challenges. The stuff linked to the dynamic event chains are pretty cool, since there is usually people around/doing events now.

map completion EHHHHHH i really dont like completing maps

WvW/Eotm this is kind of ehhhh some people dont like pvp, some people dont like eotm. pretty random aquisition here. Dont really like it.

Other problem is, its all the same for every charachter, some stuff is interesting to repeat, but map completetion? the same maps? every time? ehhh

Think the system needs a third option for aquirement, that is more solo oriented, and somewhat instructional/based on the traits, this can act as a tutorial. Maybe after master, this option is not available. At that point maybe you can expect players to do anything in the game. But during the leveling process? i dunno.

I will say this: I worry about the future of GW2. Not because of the megaservers, because that is just a matter of tweaking and fixing, but because of this new trait system. It speaks of a disconnect between the developers and the gamers as if they did not play the game themselves and had no clue about what a player is doing.

There is no possible way that

- One trait asks me to go, at level 36, to Iron Marches, a level 60 are, and kill a champion.

- Another trait on a different line asks me, at level 36, to go and finish a level 59 storyline mission.

- The third adept trait I want from a third line asks me, at level 36, to do a 100% map explore of Mount Maelstrom, a level 44-55 area.

would be deemed acceptable by a developer who played the game.

These options seem to push into buying traits, another gold sink (which makes sense since we use gold to buy gems to buy things from the gem shop, so just like Diablo 3 sources of gold are nerfed in order for there to be less gold in the system and the players to use RL cash).

I made two characters with this new system. When I reached 31 and saw what I posted above I pretty much lost interest. After 30 levels I have to trudge through another 20 or so just to get adept traits? No. I have a gazzilion tomes so I just stopped bothering to level normally and bumped myself to 80 (word of advice for other players who actually want to acquire the traits: bump yourself to 65 or so. By the time you have explored the maps and done the required storyline missions you’ll be 80), geared myself, and then, traitless, went out to acquire them.

It was a slog. A big, slow, boring slog. Full map explores to get one adept trait? Unnecessary. Level 59 story line missions? Between all the slow conversations, the unskippable cutscenes, the scripted fights and the constant back and forth (gotta say it is a nice WoW throwback to be sent to a place, kill someone, WP back to the city, enter the instance, speak with another NPC, load out, WP somewhere else, do something, WP back, enter another instance, etc etc). I spent an afternoon on it and was sorry, I should have bought the skills.

This is to say that this system is not pushing for people to make new alts. It is not friendly, it is not inviting. I made a ranger but had a grandfathered one. The new ranger is parked and I’ll be using the old one that was just a profession mule.

The ‘best’ trait acquisition? Kill a champ over Iron Marches. Simple, out of the way. Find it, get a group, kill it. This is how it should be. Another one was find Vexa’s lab, a JP. Again, as it should be. Simple, out of the way, a player needs to move out and do some effort .

Another thing about Vexa’s lab. I pity the new players. I click on the telescope and I am shown an area. I go there. I explore it. I go up, I go down. I look everywhere. No Vexa’s Lab. Eventually I /wiki it and ’lo, the entrance is a long distance away from where the pointer sent us. This is bad.

My problem with the system is that I can’t tweak my character as much. Its harder to see the benefits of secondary attributes and so being able to invest maybe a few points in a trait line to test them out was a boon. Now I automatically have to invest 5 points in a trait line! There is much less character customization in GW2 than there was in GW1 and now there is one less cool thing.

Its bad enough everyone is a DPS machine who has grown up with a big shiny trophy in their bedroom that says “You’re #1!” on it and has never had to struggle or become better through learning. There are no community determined standards of excellence and thus nothing to aspire to. So I made my own goals and pseudo-achievements and now the game is even less fun and fulfilling because now if I make a new character I <ins>HAVE TO</ins> to do these trait quests in order to unlock a trait because I’m not a GW millionaire.

If you absolutely have to make trait quests you could perhaps make the majority of them a part of a character’s personal story quests so they will complete the main storyline and have a mostly complete character by level 80. A character should get more powerful as the game goes on and not only sort of powerful and have to spend a ton of gold, skill points, and time at level 80 to catch up.

the new trait system is absolutely dumb.
all traits should be given by default.
this is not encouraging players to get involved with the game.

imagine, after moths, years we have spent to get everything we have now. now for some reason we have to repeat everything again.
to get every single old trait for each new character you will need 260 skill points and 50 gold.
to get new traits you will need another 100 skill points and 15 gold.
but hey legendary weapon only needs 200 skill points. are you ing kidding me with this?

oh and if you wanna complete all the events to get all traits. good luck. it basically means another world completion. and some events are bugged constantly.

This doesn’t apply just to GW2, but to any game which uses a similar leveling system:

What’s the point of lvl 1-29, lvl 31-35, lvl 37-41, lvl 43-47, etc?
Leveling up and having no reward for it, no sort of character point to spend, is extremely dull and boring. Every level should make you feel like you gained something (and basic automatic stat improvements doesn’t really cut it for this).

Those in-between levels are just buffer and filler. They’re just there to make character progression seem bigger and longer, and frankly, neither of those things is even wanted by the Guild Wars community as far as I recall (Guild Wars was supposed to be the one MMORPG that didn’t focus on over-extended character progression, remember? GW1 had only 20 levels, and it worked fine).

If such an overhaul was to be made in GW2, I’d rather it was a major overhaul that changed the level structure so that we’d only have levels that mattered. In other words, cut down to a level cap of 15, each level after the first giving you one trait point.

I, too, feel like the new trait system is a step backwards. I don’t know what the exact balance reasons behind them were. From what I can tell, nothing has been improved, aside from trait resets and the bonus traits each class is able to unlock. In fact, the new system has just made combat in PVE more annoying than anything, ESPECIALLY with the unlocking prerequisites for the default traits. I can understand if you want us to do something special for unlocking Trait #13, but c’mon!

Also, I think that most of us were quite comfortable with the 70-point system. I don’t really think that it was necessary to “re-balance” traits the way you did, and, in fact, all it really does is deter players from even wanting to play anymore by the time they get to level 50, and they still have X number of traits to unlock through gold or other special means. The original point of the game was to NOT make it a grind fest, and yet, with the current system, it feels like a grind fest.

The way I see it, ANET, you might as well go back to the old system and satisfy your current audience while you go back to the drawing board to make a trait system that DOESN"T suck. Also, if the distribution of stat points is what you’re REALLY worried about, then make the flow chart CURVE rather than going a straight +10 (or 50) for each trait point.

Warrior Feedback.

Strength

Burst Precision: Burst skills have a 100% chance to critically hit.

Sigil of Intelligence is better than this trait. Any build can use sigil of intelligence There is not point in using this trait for any build. 6 point investment is too high. This should be either a 2 point investment or a minor trait.

Arms

Dual Wield Agility: Your attack speed is increased by 10% when wielding a sword, axe, or mace in your offhand.

This trait is extremely underwhelming. DPS Tests have shown this trait will only increase DPS after 9 seconds of Auto attacking with AXEs for example. Which will simply equate into being able to start a 4th axe chain slightly faster than an un-traited axe chain. There are 10 point trait investments that add more DPS than this trait.

If a trait is a grandmaster trait it should be a lot better than this. Either buff the trait to 20% or make it a master teir trait. Even as a master tier trait It would still be underwhelming.

Defense

Rousing Resilience: Gain up to 1000 toughness when you break out of a stun, based on your level.
This trait has zero practical value. It should be deleted from the game.

Tactics

Phalanx Strength: When you grant yourself might, you grant 6 seconds of might to nearby allies as well.

This trait is awesome love it. Good job on this one. Give the person who thought this one up a raise.

Discipline

Brawler’s Recovery: Removes 1 stack of blindness when you swap weapons.
An interesting trait on paper. In reality there is no practical way this opens up warrior build diversity. The trait costs too much and it does too little. Doesn’t solve the issues it was intended to solve. Or those issues do not exist to begin with.

Kanto.1659:

It speaks of a disconnect between the developers and the gamers as if they did not play the game themselves and had no clue about what a player is doing.

I cant agree more…
They look to update the game so randomly without even paying attention of what the players really need, or what the game really need.
( Just look at the "run pve dungeon to unlock spvp skin.. wth is that idea… )

All they care about is their cash shop and making players buy gems…. Its really amazing how they kill GW2 ( and really fast…. ) and turn this game into a money grab sotfware
Anet is becoming worse than NEXON ( and that’s really not a compliment )

About the trait system, one thing is clear .. i will NEVER EVER start another alt with the current system.. i might have wanted to make a guardian, but i already have 6 class… and just for the new traits i would need to waste 90gold + 600 skills points.. ( and NO i’am not interested into doing thoses pointless spam 1 pve event to unlock them )

So if i need to farm 65gold + 360 skills point + farm all the gold i need for weapons + armor + jewels + all switch + all runes + all sigils… one new character is going to be that expensive that you will need to farm the tarding outpost, or farm gold like a korean bot.

And just.. NO THANKS.
That’s NOT the GW game i paid for. And that’s not the “no grind no farm” game i wanted to play.

Surely it wouldn’t have been too hard to leave existing Traits in place for existing characters? Having to work out what I had set up for each of my high level characters hasn’t made me a happy player. Even an in-game email reminding me what Traits each character had would have been helpful, and given that most/many (?) traits are the same, would it have been bad to leave them selected for pre-existing characters?

I just wonder if i can get my old trait tree back :s i know that they added 40 new traits or something to it but then i loved my old traits which i made.. but i didn’t note them down or save screenshot for it :s or do i need to build it up again -_-"

Caligari.2641:

Surely it wouldn’t have been too hard to leave existing Traits in place for existing characters? Having to work out what I had set up for each of my high level characters hasn’t made me a happy player. Even an in-game email reminding me what Traits each character had would have been helpful, and given that most/many (?) traits are the same, would it have been bad to leave them selected for pre-existing characters?

traits are the same? (idk what class you play, but most necro traits arent the same.)
How hard is it to read them over and go “yep, that’s what I was using/want to use”?

Out of all the complaints about this trait system, This is the least bothersome thing about it. >.>

Trait unlocking is a great idea, but it had poor execution.

100% map completion should be an alternative objective for objectives like world boss timer like the karka queen.

Not everyone can be on time for Karka queen.

CC Danicia.1394:

Nynuwe.5893:

PS: I am deeply concerned no moderator has yet to appear here to intervene. That no developer has peaked in to aknowledge some of the concerns brought up here.

The thread was doing remarkedly well for a long time, which is why it had little interaction from the Moderation Team. There has been plenty of debating, only a tiny bit of off-topic, which quickly got back on track.

We saw the first reports about this thread this afternoon. Thousands up thousands of posts are made every single day and although we wish we could review them all, it’s just not physically possible, so any assistance we can get from players using the report function is greatly appreciated.

All this said, we have cleaned up the thread. Please keep it on-topic and clean. Thank you!

I’m glad you kept the thread on topic. But what myself and probably the vast majority care about is a response to the OBVIOUS failings of the new system. To me it feels like devs are just letting us post and laughing at us. When a thread has so much negative feedback a response about our concerns and suggestions should be OBVIOUS to upper management. You ARE losing players – not just new ones, but old, faithful ones. Our guild lost several due to the changes.

Look at what happened to ATARI on the E.T. game just in the news. It was possibly the worst game ever made. I should know, I played it when it was released(yes, that dates me). I quickly quit playing that game and went to others that were actually well designed. The GW2 trait system needed some TINY tweaks, not a huge overhaul that created massive faults in LOGIC in a level 80 zone).

Please, ANeT, don’t let GW2 go the way of the E.T. game.

Yesterday, while slogging through Kessex Hills, I had this very nice moment of excitement. I went into an out of the way cave and killed two veteran trolls, that I’ve killed before, and otherwise would have skipped. To my surprise, I got a little treasure box, and my first trait unlock! I hadn’t bothered to look up how the traits would unlock. I assumed it would be a logical and personal story orientated way. While searching for a list of how to do this, I got excited about leveling again. I imagined all the all neat little scavenger hunts for obscure, previously ignored veterans and champs that everyone skips over because it’s easier to level by running through zones and following trains of players, wherever they might be. I even got a little nostalgic, thinking back to GW1 and hunting down bosses to capture elite skills. But then again, I am probably one of only a handful of people on earth who like scavenger hunts and play large map adventure games for a sense of exploration. But of course, all of those warm feelings turned to ash the moment I saw how those traits would be unlocked.

I don’t understand how we’ve arrived at this position. For more than a year, all of the changes to traits and game mechanics have made based on the idea of build diversity. “We want to see lots of viable builds for each profession.” [sic] Nearly every aspect of the new trait system goes against that laudable objective.

You have back-loaded all the trait abilities until level 80. So rather than experimenting with different traits during the leveling process and learning how they work, you pushed that task back until the end. The very first thing people like to do upon reaching lvl 80 is to GEAR UP. That is the carrot that’s been dangling the whole time. It’s a little harder to do if you have no idea what kind of build you want to make. But perhaps that’s no longer an issue in light of the next point.

Given the absurd trait unlock task list, most people will be buying their traits. This may come as a surprise to you, but people are going to be resistant to simply handing over a huge chunk of gold and buying the whole trait list, lock, stock, and barrel. As a result, some planning will be in order. Rather than experiment with a full list of unlocked traits, it would be far more logical to figure out exactly what build I want by Google-ing “Guardian Hammer WvW” and copying the build from one of the first 3 hits. That will do wonders for your concept of build diversity. Better still, many people may feel locked into the build when faced with the obstacle of forking over another 15 G and 60!! skills points to explore the Grandmaster traits of another line. This can do nothing but widen the gap between existing players and new one who must suffer through this process.

I am curious how you arrived at the current skill point reward system (30, 36,..etc). The concept of using regular and predictable positive rewards for promoting specific behavior (in this case leveling) is a long studied and well established process. From a professional stand point, I am extremely interested in any data you have suggesting that arbitrary or infrequent rewards are also successful in promoting specific behaviors. Please share this information.

So what was the problem that necessitated such drastic changes? If you intend to reply PvE isn’t challenging enough, think again. PvE is a challenge for new players, because of course, everything is new. The vast majority of new players don’t min/max their stats to kill everything as quickly as possible and most probably don’t know how the mechanics work at that point. For experienced players, manipulating the traits to slaughter mindless enemies is the point, because they’ve done all the content before. That is the fun. You’ve done a disservice to both groups.

Do I really need another paragraph explaining how dissuading future character development coupled with a lack of new content might be troubling for the future?

Out of all these changes, how we arrived at the specifics of the trait unlock task list is the easiest for me to understand. An intern, nervous and running late for a key development meeting, trips while carrying a folder full of trait quest ideas. The contents of the folder go everywhere. The intern, now frantic and nursing a head injury, puts the folder back together without having any idea of what the items are or their context within the game. The intern then hands over the folder to the developers as the completed work of the Trait Quest Unlock Sub-Committee. I understand. This was a human error. Now fix it.

As for the rest of the changes, I can only see two possible provocations:

1) Your boss’ boss came up with this whole idea in a dream. Everyone from the first moment knew this was a bad idea, but fearful for their jobs, kept silent for months on end. I can sympathize, but you’re only forestalling the inevitable.

2) The Mega-Server change did not come without costs. Due to the complicated nature and increased loads, the servers are under massive stress. It was paramount the Mega-Server roll-out coincide with an immediate drop in user activity, both in terms of the number of players actively online and the amount of user data being stored (character slots). If this is the case, then I retract all my previous criticism and salute you for an ingenious solution to an onerous problem.

I like the idea of the new trait system although I already had every class at 80 so I only have to unlock 5 traits on each class. That being said they should really think about making the unlocks account bound being as it is the same feats required to unlock the traits on every class. Even just needing the 5 new traits on every class it is taking pretty long due to the mega server and the temples and events required always being completed. I could not imagine unlocking every trait on all classes as a player starting today, it would be a nightmare.

Here’s the thing Anet: I have MAYBE 1-2 hours of gameplay time available to me most nights IF i am not completely wiped by the end of my day. I usually try to spend some of that time in WvW if I can. I also specifically started 2 lowbie alts to test out this patch.

This is all important info as i move forward with my point. Prior to this patch I would do events and squirrel money away so I could (when someone turned level 80) craft/buy them armor that suited the build(s) I had worked on making for them. I’d test and tweak as i went along (paying for a re-spec here and there), so I could know what armor and runes and sigils i wanted to buy for them. Sometimes i had enough gold to get them outfitted all at once and other times I had to get certain things from drops or over time.

Now you’ve given me the option of opening maps that I honestly don’t have fun running in half the time, having to go into PvP which I don’t do, or seeking out enemies in places of the world I’ve told myself I don’t ever want to do again just to unlock a trait. Oh wait, you’ve also given me the option to spend WAY MORE gold than I can muster to unlock, and certainly more skill points than that toon would even have as well by that point. So I basically have to choose between doing content i don’t have fun playing (usually at levels far above my own) or spending gold and skill points to unlock them. (Skill points that I’d rather use on unlocking, you know, skills.)

In all seriousness Anet, this is 16 pages of complaints that are not only well put, but fairly detailed and most importantly VERY SIMILAR. That means that this isn’t some small problem with a bunch of different angles. Its the same very annoying problem that is upsetting to the people whom you want to spend more money on the game.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

I like the idea of the new trait system although I already had every class at 80 so I only have to unlock 5 traits on each class. That being said they should really think about making the unlocks account bound being as it is the same feats required to unlock the traits on every class. Even just needing the 5 new traits on every class it is taking pretty long due to the mega server and the temples and events required always being completed. I could not imagine unlocking every trait on all classes as a player starting today, it would be a nightmare.

yeah I think alot of people wouldnt mind it so much if they were acc.bound, doing the same unlock over and over again…..blah boring, and puts me off alts anyway. I’m sure it puts others off as well

Ultimately GW2 needs more of an emphasis on CONTROL and SUPPORT capabilities and needs to have thousands more possible combinations of builds, and several hundred more viable build combinations distributed throughout the existing professions, instead of the relatively few viable build combinations possible in the game today. There is probably only 40-75 viable builds in the game today, most heavily represented in the order of the Warrior, Guardian, Necromancer, and Thief. It needs a minimum of about 100 viable builds for each profession.

The trait system is a major system that can allow this to happen. I think it needs a major overhaul, and the trait system’s current iteration fails to build upon the established fundamentals of the previous system.

Nevertheless, how can this be done?

• Make each new ability unique, interesting, fun to use, and watch.
• Allow people to choose their stats on their gear
  —> Each individual Major and Minor stats with a few restrictions from a drop down menu. (At least for Spvp)
• Unlink the connections between 2 Attributes’ points per trait line, and give players nearly complete freedom in the allocation of their stat points for various Attributes.
  This is probably the best and first thing that can be done to greatly increase build diversity immediately.
• Create new skills that allow someone to actually CONTROL enemy movements and SUPPORT their allies effectively. Make sure they are interesting and fun to use.
• Create new traits that are each unique and greatly define builds and fundamentally change their game-play in fun and interesting ways.
• Many of the traits that are passive or manipulate numbers should be rolled or merged into the basic trait lines for the professions at various tiers.
  This would allow for more unique traits and mechanics to be created for the professions. It also creates less of a need for theory crafting minimal, maximal, and optimal builds. It makes it easier for those that do, too. It also makes it easier to balance if combined with splitting the trait lines and attribute point allocation.
• Roll each weapon’s Auto Attack into an ability that doesn’t have a # button, by making them initiated by opposite clicking (default button) on an enemy. This opens up a new ability for each profession and weapon.
• Make several traits greatly modify the effects of individual or groups of abilities.
• Create new abilities for existing weapons that can be selected similarly to utilities.
• Balance different weapon, armor, and trinket types to make less viable ones more effective.
  Ex: Values are larger for Healing Power than Damage values.

About 80% of all traits in the game are passive damage oriented traits that modify cool downs or otherwise amplify damage values.

These things combined with changes to PvE individual monster mechanics, would increase build diversity. Monster encounter mechanics must be evolved to reduce the necessity of doing damage, and that the control and support roles become vital for success in more encounters through the entire game.

One such encounter that has a healthy need for Control and Support roles is the Ice Elemental in the Dredge Fractal.

Ultimately, one change without the other will fail to open up a larger amount of viable builds, which provides more game-play options and makes the game-play feel fresh and vibrant longer.

Also, before I forget: I have been having some fun with my lowbies and leveling them for now, but i am wondering if Anet has truly worked out the timing on the rate of skill point acquisition and when they believe we will be ready to hunt down those traits. My guess is the answer is no. Anyone try to figure that out yet? I’m curious.

I may have already acquired some of these new Ranger Traits. No problem with the acquiring aspect, except that I don’t know if I have gotten any. The reason I don’t know, is that I know that I will never use a single one of the new ones and don’t see any actual additional value in any of them for any build that anyone would actually use. That is the problem.

The new trait system encourage people to zoom to 80 (champ train/EoTM karma train, for example) before they even start getting traits: “100% Frostgorge” for an adept trait… seriously?

Story traits are also bugged, so if you are not instance owner you will have to purchase the traits the story should have given.
Link to a post created with video of the story trait not being rewarded.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Story-Traits-not-unlocking-when-in-party/first#post3954643

Passive character upgrades are so kitten boring.

I’m going to copy/paste my suggestions from this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Trait-Challenges/

Hey everyone, I’ve been thinking a lot about the new trait changes and reading a lot of opinions, and that inspired me to come up with what I believe is a better solution. If you like what you read, spread the word and hopefully maybe ArenaNet will make some changes like these. Here goes:

For starters, players should unlock traits at level 15, and gain one trait point every five levels until level 80. Master tier once again unlocks at 40, and Grandmaster at 60. This is how it worked before the patch, only each point will still be worth five, and new players don’t have to wait to level 30 just to use traits. It’s a win-win.

Traits are still locked and can still be unlocked by purchasing guides, but acquisition out in the field should be different. Players will be able to complete specially-marked Trait Challenges for trait guides much like they can complete Skill Challenges for skill points.

Trait Challenges could be marked on the map as either empty or filled hexagons (similar to hearts), and are based on the type of profession you play: Soldier, Adventurer, or Scholar.
Warriors and Guardians will have to display their strength by dueling a NPC to gain a new trait.
Rangers, Thieves, and Engineers stretch their adventuring muscles by going off road and deep into caves and crevices to reach special chests containing their trait guides.
And since Elementalists, Mesmers, and Necromancers like to use their brains in battle, they have to complete mind puzzles or quizzes in order to win their traits.
We already more or less do these things for skill challenges, but they can be slightly harder and more specific to profession type.

Additionally, if your profession doesn’t match up with that specific challenge, then it does not show up on the map and it cannot be activated. For example, a Soldier or Scholar would not be able to see a hexagon on the map for an Adventurer challenge, and if they manage to reach the chest, will not be able to open it. Similarly, a Scholar or Adventurer will not be able to pick fights with Soldier challengers, though if the fight is in session, they can at least give aid.

Adept challenges could be found on maps between the levels of 15-40, Master challenges on maps level 40-60, and Grandmaster challenges on maps level 60-80.

Oh, and Trait Challenges should not count towards map completion.

Thoughts?

They really need to make these unlockable in WvW. I love leveling up there, but why should I have to pay silver/gold AND SP (the SP part really bugs me) for a trait I want just because I don’t want to PvE for it? Please give us ways to unlock the traits in WvW, even if it’s linked with certain things, like a certain amount of enemy kills, gates destroyed, ruins taken, mercs converted, etc.

I think that people are feeling the cost of the traits more so now because the game is a bit older, it’s no longer launch, so most people are playing alts now. I think this is a result of the economist deciding we need yet another gold sink (which we don’t we need to reduce gold sinks across the game not make them worse) and I think they need to remove this horrible idea.

There’s also the trouble of having XIII traits in the way of other XI XII traits that worked perfectly fine. As an engineer I can attest to the need for the entire trait system to be redone on this class because we have XI and XII’s like 50% faster endurance regen and burns you apply last longer which are ridiculously placed but add to that some new XIII’s that are and are not possible replacements and we’ve got build issues not more diversity.

I’m also quite disturbed that on top of the trait problems we now face with builds and costs, that no one on the team spent the time going over what’s been broken about many of the classes since launch, such as the horrible choices Engineers face in the downed state, so terrible are these skills that it’s pretty much an automatic death anytime an engineer is downed.

Edit: Another thing about the cost that just came to mind. If they had thought about it clearly, they would have known that the way people pay for things in any title is by farming drops. The cost of the traits could have easily been offset by the removal of such harmful systems of loot control such as DR (which really hasn’t done a single thing to prevent bots as we’ve all seen).

ThanatosAngel.8024:

I’m going to copy/paste my suggestions from this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Trait-Challenges/

Hey everyone, I’ve been thinking a lot about the new trait changes and reading a lot of opinions, and that inspired me to come up with what I believe is a better solution. If you like what you read, spread the word and hopefully maybe ArenaNet will make some changes like these. Here goes:

For starters, players should unlock traits at level 15, and gain one trait point every five levels until level 80. Master tier once again unlocks at 40, and Grandmaster at 60. This is how it worked before the patch, only each point will still be worth five, and new players don’t have to wait to level 30 just to use traits. It’s a win-win.

Traits are still locked and can still be unlocked by purchasing guides, but acquisition out in the field should be different. Players will be able to complete specially-marked Trait Challenges for trait guides much like they can complete Skill Challenges for skill points.

Trait Challenges could be marked on the map as either empty or filled hexagons (similar to hearts), and are based on the type of profession you play: Soldier, Adventurer, or Scholar.
Warriors and Guardians will have to display their strength by dueling a NPC to gain a new trait.
Rangers, Thieves, and Engineers stretch their adventuring muscles by going off road and deep into caves and crevices to reach special chests containing their trait guides.
And since Elementalists, Mesmers, and Necromancers like to use their brains in battle, they have to complete mind puzzles or quizzes in order to win their traits.
We already more or less do these things for skill challenges, but they can be slightly harder and more specific to profession type.

Additionally, if your profession doesn’t match up with that specific challenge, then it does not show up on the map and it cannot be activated. For example, a Soldier or Scholar would not be able to see a hexagon on the map for an Adventurer challenge, and if they manage to reach the chest, will not be able to open it. Similarly, a Scholar or Adventurer will not be able to pick fights with Soldier challengers, though if the fight is in session, they can at least give aid.

Adept challenges could be found on maps between the levels of 15-40, Master challenges on maps level 40-60, and Grandmaster challenges on maps level 60-80.

Oh, and Trait Challenges should not count towards map completion.

Thoughts?

My thoughts?

Yes. PLEASE.

ThanatosAngel.8024:

I’m going to copy/paste my suggestions from this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Trait-Challenges/

Hey everyone, I’ve been thinking a lot about the new trait changes and reading a lot of opinions, and that inspired me to come up with what I believe is a better solution. If you like what you read, spread the word and hopefully maybe ArenaNet will make some changes like these. Here goes:

For starters, players should unlock traits at level 15, and gain one trait point every five levels until level 80. Master tier once again unlocks at 40, and Grandmaster at 60. This is how it worked before the patch, only each point will still be worth five, and new players don’t have to wait to level 30 just to use traits. It’s a win-win.

Traits are still locked and can still be unlocked by purchasing guides, but acquisition out in the field should be different. Players will be able to complete specially-marked Trait Challenges for trait guides much like they can complete Skill Challenges for skill points.

Trait Challenges could be marked on the map as either empty or filled hexagons (similar to hearts), and are based on the type of profession you play: Soldier, Adventurer, or Scholar.
Warriors and Guardians will have to display their strength by dueling a NPC to gain a new trait.
Rangers, Thieves, and Engineers stretch their adventuring muscles by going off road and deep into caves and crevices to reach special chests containing their trait guides.
And since Elementalists, Mesmers, and Necromancers like to use their brains in battle, they have to complete mind puzzles or quizzes in order to win their traits.
We already more or less do these things for skill challenges, but they can be slightly harder and more specific to profession type.

Additionally, if your profession doesn’t match up with that specific challenge, then it does not show up on the map and it cannot be activated. For example, a Soldier or Scholar would not be able to see a hexagon on the map for an Adventurer challenge, and if they manage to reach the chest, will not be able to open it. Similarly, a Scholar or Adventurer will not be able to pick fights with Soldier challengers, though if the fight is in session, they can at least give aid.

Adept challenges could be found on maps between the levels of 15-40, Master challenges on maps level 40-60, and Grandmaster challenges on maps level 60-80.

Oh, and Trait Challenges should not count towards map completion.

Thoughts?

This sounds interesting. However, it’s considering trait acquisition as a new system, when it’s really a replacement system. From the point of view of a game developer as a business, why create new things to do when you can use existing content just as well at a fraction of the cost?

Here is my feedback about the traits:

Engineer:
- Synaptic Overload: Seems very well in PvP modes mainly. Tried it out and works very well with rifle/bombs.
- Bunker Down: Haven’t found thebest use yet. It mainly seems to boost damage. However couldn’t compare if it was better than 2% bonus damage per condition.
- Fortified Turrets: Very well trait. Tried it out in WvW dropping it with deployable turrets. Also great for defending buildings.
- Experimental Turrets: Strong support. It feels well that engineer got abooston buffing allies.
- Gadgeteer: Great to see gadgets more traited. However it feels somehow weak: It does not share anyboons with allies and the boon duration is short in comparison to the cooldown and experimental turrets. It also doesn’t feel like it has a good position in the line that has ferocity in it.

Tips: Either way swap Gadgeteer with Synaptic Overload, OR make toolbelt skills from gadgets, actually gadgets,just like with elixers.

Guardian:
-Amplified Wrath: GREAT<3
-Radiant Retaliation: Also a great trait. Feels very good to change the system of a boon. Also can work very well in a tanky condition build.
- Communal Defenses: Doesn’t feel like it should be in any build. However this might be useful toswitch at in a certain pinch.
- Force of Will: Great for commanding. Seriously. Love it.
- Purity of Body: Altough it canbeshared with 5 allies, it still seems to be very low. I’dd rather had seen 25%.

Necromancer:
- Path of Corruption: Could use some more. Rather be “Shroud Enhancement”,also changing transfusion a bit.
- Unholy Sanctuary: Seems to be little weak. However I love the DS encouragement.
- Renewing Blast: Great to see that necro gain a support buff.

Tips: I’dd rather have seen also a small buff through traits for berserker builds in PvE, which are currently slightly weak.

im telling everyone again.
if you do not wish to finish all the events to get your traits
1, you will need 360 skill points (remember, legendary weapon only needs 200)
2, you will need 65 gold (………..? are you serious?)
however if you want to finish all the events
1, you will need to do world completion again
2, you will need to do world completion again
3, you will need to do world completion again
4, you will need to do world completion again
5, you will need to do world completion again
well, not that much but pretty much you will need at least need 70% world completion, and remember, those traits events are always separated in different maps, far away from maps you actually tend to follow normally
for example we used to lvl up in queensdale, kessex hills then gendarran fields and your personal story line follows these maps as well, but this new trait system doesn’t follow anything just want you to finish random maps. ????????????? why anet?????

Taygus.4571:

traits are the same? (idk what class you play, but most necro traits arent the same.)

Really? None of the names and broad bushstroke effects of the Traits I’m using on my Necro have changed… Reaper’s Might, Spectral Mastery, Reaper’s Precision… etc. – these are the same Traits I had last month, did yours all change names? Sure, the details may have changed, but what they focus on is pretty much the same.

My beef is just that when I logged on after the changes I had to go through and work out all over what the selection I had was for each of my level 80 characters. No, this wasn’t a massive hardship, but I can’t understand why they couldn’t have retained the characters’ list of Traits during the update. Why make everyone re-assign all the Traits for all their level 80 characters?

Taygus.4571:

Out of all the complaints about this trait system, This is the least bothersome thing about it.

No argument. But is is yet another detail that could have, and perhaps should have been done better. Which I thought was what this thread was for.

I seriously doubt I can say anything constructive that hasn’t already been said about the trait changes. I’m really impressed at how well so many people have pointed out the flaws in the the updated system. Although, that actually just makes me more disappointed in anet that they let this go live in the first place.

Even though I don’t have anything terribly exciting to add, at the very least, I do want to add my voice to the chorus and say I do not support this update and it will certainly prevent me spending additional money on the game until it is fixed.

Aside from the poor implementation of various aspects of the update, such as acquiring traits, the part that bothers me the most is how the trait points were pushed back to higher levels. When I first read about the feature pack update, I was excited to see big changes coming. That excitement was quickly dashed when I saw the changes to the level experience for traits. It was clearly a bad idea. I just hoped that somehow there would be some additional changes that would make up for it. Obviously that didn’t happen.

Before this patch, I had just started playing not too long ago and I was having a blast leveling up characters and trying out different professions. This may not be normal, but I play MMOs to level up characters, not to grind the end game, and I was excited to find an MMO that actually seemed to cater to me. However, after this change, I’m questioning if this really is a good game for me after all.

Also, I’d like to add that I’m really disappointed by the lack of developer response to all the criticism about the change. I don’t have any great expectations from them, but a little openness goes a long way after dropping a kitten like this. So, what does everyone here think? Is there any real hope that anet will fix this blunder in the near future or are we all just stuck?

Bunker Down is terrible, the mines are tinier than the dodge bombs they have no radius to speak of they are placed exactly below your character so even if something runs up it has the potential to miss if you’re a Charr or Norn for example, and the explosion isn’t affected by any of your Explosives Trait line traits. It’s also in the way of the Modified Ammunition trait, one of the most essential traits for condition builds in the game.