Game Updates: Traits
Problem: Trait unlocks are tedious (line 4)
4-I: Light in the Darkness. Generic Personal Story Problem.
4-II: Tytone Perch. Generic WvW Problem.
4-IV: 100% Harathi Hinterlands. Generic Map Complete Problem.
4-VI: Krait Witch in Timberline Falls. Level too high.
4-VIII: Chest in Arundon Vale. Levevl is on the high end of possible for the tier.
4-X: Source of Orr. Generic Personal Story Problem.
4-XI: Honor of the Waves. Dungeon group problem.
4-XII: Temple of Dwayna. Long spawn timer.
Problem: Trait unlocks are tedious (line 5)
5-I: Caudecus’s Manor. Dungeon group problem.
5-III: Retribution. Generic Personal Story Problem.
5-VI: 100% Dredgehaunt Cliffs. Generic Map Complete Problem.
5-V: Champ Ice Wurm. Not out of place, but many people even now seem to have never heard of this event and are unwilling to help…
5-VI: Lord Ignius the Eternal. Event chain is long and hard to follow and has a number of places it stalls out and bugs.
5-VIII: Infinity Coil Commander. Too high level.
5-IX: Admiral Taidha Covington. Spawn timer is too specific.
5-XI: Overgrown Grub. Generic WvW problem, plus this is universally hated by everyone who comments on the forums.
5-XII: Ruined City of Arah. Dungeon group problem.
5-XIII: Temple of Lyssa. Reset timer too long.
I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?This. So much this.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.
For all those posting specific feedback. Thank you it is very helpful.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players.=
Can we use this as an argument to make this trait system unlocked account-wide?
I’m all about helping new players, but the current system is tedious and expensive for veterans who make alts. It sort of flies in the face of more alt-friendly systems like the wardrobe and ascended gear.
(edited by Cross.6437)
As I already suggested, I’m still in favor of handing out traits upon leveling. This way you will be rewarded when you get a level and you will have the freedom to choose a trait what you would like to try out. With this option, players will get their traits just by playing and leveling without any particular task or restriction and they still will be introduced to all the traits one-by-one.
I don’t know, it just feels so much userfriendly, logical and natural to me.
Plus I think I only went to level 50-60+ zones after I reached level 80, so I think new players will have a harder time if you stick to your new method. What a new player will experience is that he/she has to hunt down a certain champion for a certain trait and he/she will be probably alone for that. Waiting for a trait, because noone is near to the champ that will give unlock it will be very frustrating I assume. (If you really like your new method, at least consider changing unlock to “finding” those champs.)
Oh and don’t forget that once you leveled up one character, you already have a good knowledge about how things work, so even if your method is truly more educational to new players, their alt characters will be still hindered in trait unlocking.
p.s.: Whatever happens, I’m really glad that your shared your view on the trait system.
Necros need more love… seriously. – http://necroaming.tumblr.com/
(edited by CyClotroniC.4957)
@JonPeters
I am sorry but this is wasted effort. While it is great to see you keep working on things the system is just bad.
In theory it is a very good idea to encourage people to actually read the traits and explore the world.
In reality you spend 36 levels, close to half of the way to max. level, with out using a single trait. Getting random unlocks you don’t know where they come from for a system you don’t know about and quite possibly you can’t use.
It totally misses the idea of letting the play grow into the traits and expects them to get random traits and know what traits are and what could be useful ( aka. be a veteran of this game to some degree ) but at the same time not to want traits and be happy with a limited choice or going massively out of there way to see new stuff and get said trait ( aka. being new to the game) . In short it is a clash of design that ends up pleasing a few but leaving the majority in the dust.
The whole fake progression idea you tried to implement with it just kills it even more. Levels for trait points are not something players can look forwards too.
I fact most of the time they are utterly useless. You will find yourself with either to main traits you can’t use because of the lack of trait points or not enough trait points to get a build running that is actually a difference from having no traits and just the points from the trait lines. In short it is no fun, it doesn’t get people to think about there builds and most certainly does not help them know the trait system better.
How so? You get points at, for a new player, random levels. Traits are either scattered far far around the world giving you that weird semi encouragement to explore but not to as you visit the area to get the trait but maybe you want to keep exploring your old area or finish it but if you see fun stuff here it just delays it and you end up feeling like you are missing out . And the text in the pop up window is the same as in the trait screen. People don’t change because you slam them a pop up in the face. Ask Ad block.
A much better thing to do. Is either tie each trait to it’s own event that either makes you use it or shows you how it is used ( by say the enemy or an ally using it). That would be much more like the Gw1 elite skill hunting. But also very resource consuming on content only certain class maybe experience if they don’t decide to buy the trait.
Another option , and my favored one, is you gain traits as you level. You still get the same trait points as right now but each level you also get a trait. Frank level 25 on. One T3 trait before 80 ( as you can use them before 80 ), one of each trait line at 80 and the new ones can be kept as little hunts as the idea is nice if it is not stretched to a massive and endless grind. It gives you a certain sense of progression. It encourages you to play around with what you got and learn how to use the things you have and gives you joy of getting a new level as you get this new and shiny toy. And let’s be frank if a new play didn’t understand the basics of the combat up to level 25. The extra 5 level won’t change a thing. You need to implement reoccurring “practice” for things like dodging and other things. Not make it into small tiny bits because if you don’t get it you don’t get it no matter how simple and small it is.
Keep up the great work it is great to see you keeping your eye on things to improve them.
Sorry for any bad English it is not my first language
Blub.
On the trait level I think Grandmaster should be unlocked at 70 or 75 to make people start to play with build and upon reaching 80 be more focused on getting a gear for the playstyle they chose. All my non-80 toons post feature pack1 (minus one … see below) have been EOTM’d for the last ten levels since I was bored to wait for being able to actually play them the way I wanted.
Concerning trait unlocks I deleted one alt on April 15th update and leveling (still ongoing) it made me love that profession which I didn’t like before…so globally trait unlocks are great! It slows the starting experience as expected and made me more aware of the profession mechanics and weapon skills. On top of that I like the feeling of hunting traits in places I went only once at launch. It’s also cool to see thanks to megaserver that there are tons of people in what I believed empty maps to fill the requirements of traits unlocks.
What I would do :
- redistribute trait points between lvl 30 and 70
-remove all map completion but Gendaran Fields and let one adept trait per line unlocked so that choosing a line for stats always gives you a trait to place
-remove story chapter and let one master trait unlocked per line for the same reason (Story is the only thing new players follow without hesitations)
-Highlight on the map were traits can be unlocked. The lens is cool but there are too many traits so new players don’t know where to start. Without the wiki sorting by level I would never have enjoyed this.
-For specific traits I don’t know if it is still the case but Arah gate should award the trait for defense aswell (killing the priest should be the thing) since it created a feeling of being forced to fail events.
As an addendum, I have to say it is deplorable the way that Anet has ignored this thread. I had hoped that after the most egregious problems with the trait unlocks were fixed that there was a glimmer of hope that we were being heard and solutions were silently being implemented in the background.
Unfortunately, it seems that this thread was completely ignored since May. Why would you need to ask about the most obvious points, that have been raised again and again, unless you had just completely tuned it out? You wouldn’t.
It appears that after the initial fixes, the development team gave themselves a pat on the back and walked away from the fire that is now burning out of control. Players are wildly dissatisfied (even those who had no experience from before the April patch) and nothing is being done about it.
This behavior is unconscionable.
For all those posting specific feedback. Thank you it is very helpful.
I don’t know how ‘This change stinks, please put it back the way it was’ isn’t specific enough.
The table is a fable.
I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?This. So much this.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.
In other words we cant make a “well developed, clear and concise tutorial” because bad tutorials are “boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players”.
Also good tutorials are skipable (for experienced players).
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
Edit: Also I will be playing other games more now too. Family that introduced me to GW2 have gone back to WoW. I’ve just started playing that with them a few months ago and although initially I didn’t like WoW that much I will probably be playing it more now.
(edited by Lazuli.2098)
For all those posting specific feedback. Thank you it is very helpful.
I don’t know how ‘This change stinks, please put it back the way it was’ isn’t specific enough.
Because that would be recognizing they did it wrong the first time and its probably his neck on the rope giving excuses why it failed to begin with. Minor tweaks won’t resolve this but will probably silence the complains about it. I hope people keep complaining about it.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players.=
Can we use this as an argument to make this trait system unlocked account-wide?
I’m all about helping new players, but the current system is tedious and expensive for veterans who make alts. It sort of flies in the face of more alt-friendly systems like the wardrobe and ascended gear.
Wouldn’t account wide be a good way to flag new and old players? Seems to me everyone would be happy. (not so much new players)
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.
So, instead of making it an unlock every 5 levels starting at level 15 (which otherwise unlocks nothing), you put it every 6 levels starting at level 30 (specific unlock: Elite Skills).
I would also point out that there was nothing else being unlocked at level 11. So, you’ve “reducing complexity” by moving trait unlocks to a level where there’s another major unlock? Really?
I feel like I’m being talked down to by someone that feels I’m mentally deficient.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
Problem: Trait unlock at level 30. I understand why this decision was made. At level 30, I’m still unlocking most of my utility and elite skills.
Solution: create an in-game tutorial. Instead of just a little flashing blurb that says ’You’ve unlocked traits!’ actually take the time in-game to explain what traits are and how they work. Also, you should seriously consider giving 2 points at 30, so a player can experiment with selecting a major trait immediately, instead of having to wait 6 levels and forgetting that the option is there at all. Make the tutorial skippable for players who don’t care or already know what to do and repeatable for players who need to see it again
“Also, you should seriously consider giving 2 points at 30, so a player can experiment with selecting a major trait immediately, instead of having to wait 6 levels and forgetting that the option is there at all.” <—— this part is so true. I am so glad I finished all my professions before this stuff was implemented. It sounds like a nightmare.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
I find several major problems with the trait system as currently implemented:
- All unlocks are identical for all characters, forever. There is no variation for veteran players, by profession, or after the Living Story changes events in the area.
- It discourages experimentation. Under the old system, you could swap between e.g. Mantra-traits to Glamour traits to learn about those skill types. Now, you’re locked in.
- It goes against the “play as you like” leveling up that is offered in every other part of the game. Skills are unlocked by tiers that are unlocked by spending enough skill points and those SPs are earned by…playing the game. Crafting is leveled up by …crafting, whether it’s refinement, discovery, or whatever.
- It forces people to play EotM, WvW, and PvE. In contrast, you can earn skills by playing any one of those modes. Exposing people to all play types is good; forcing them is not.
- It gates traits arbitrarily, instead of meaningfully: power trait unlocks have nothing to do with power.
Previously, I was interested in leveling up new toons for the pleasure of learning the game all over again. Now, I avoid it like the plague, because it feels completely restricted and tedious.
My recommendation: make the system more like skill unlocks:
- Use skill points to unlock traits. Spend enough to unlock a tier.
- Have only one event-related gate per trait line and offer 5-10 different events.
- Unlocking the toughness tier should require durability, rather than DPS. Unlocking Necro traits should require Death Shroud; unlocking mesmer traits should require shattering, etc.
- The end result should be open-ended gating, similar to how skills and crafting works.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?This. So much this.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.
In other words we cant make a “well developed, clear and concise tutorial” because bad tutorials are “boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players”.
Also good tutorials are skipable (for experienced players).
Bolded the only relevant revealed information on tutorials (though, they already had one big tutorial from lvl 1 to lvl 2… I can’t imagine how hard it would be to add some text lines there to be honest).
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players.=
Can we use this as an argument to make this trait system unlocked account-wide?
I’m all about helping new players, but the current system is tedious and expensive for veterans who make alts. It sort of flies in the face of more alt-friendly systems like the wardrobe and ascended gear.
Wouldn’t account wide be a good way to flag new and old players? Seems to me everyone would be happy. (not so much new players)
Something I think we also need to make clear:
The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.
Traits are not a normal achievement like titles or legendaries. Traits are a core part of combat in gw2 and character progression. They are not something that should be any more difficult to earn than a normal skill because they are vital to being able to perform well in the game.
They should be earned because we need them. They are not a trophy that we wear for looks without any impact on our playstyle.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players.
But still better on all of those points than trait unlocking is.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I personally like the idea of a trait unlock system. I do think, however, that at 30 traits come in too late. Leveling from 20-30 is a slow and painful process, because there’s nothing new for my character to do. 1-10 gets you to unlock weapon skills, 10-20 gets you to start really looking at utility skills and personal story. I feel you should get a trait at 20 just so you can actually feel there’s more to the game, there’s more to build to. Dungeons are introduced to the player at 30 as well, so that at the same time for a new player can be overwhelming.
I agree with everyone here, the amount of work needed to do for some traits is just not in line with the benefit of the trait.
- Map completion? Not on my fourth alt.
- WvW? Not as an upleveled rallybag.
- Dungeons? A game mode in which you need to already have traits to have viable builds? No thanks, Catch 22.
- Group Events? Some group events can stay for sure. But, IMO traits should be about solo achievements, you should aim to be making yourself stronger by challenging yourself to complete difficult content, not by piggybacking off of 80s who are already strong enough.
In addition, I feel trait locations should encourage AT-LEVEL map exploration. Seeing that one of the traits I’d like to possibly experiment with is in a zone 15 levels above my current level is just plain not okay. It’s discouraging to me as a player.
I also feel that build diversity is crippled by the way trait unlocks are handled currently. Why bother waiting for an event that might be bugged to spawn, just to unlock a trait that may only be slightly better than my established, effective build? But that’s a symptom of the trait unlock system, not anything in of itself to be fixed. Just rambling at this point.
(edited by Sir Buttles.5182)
I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?This. So much this.
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.
I understand that this may be hard to implement. On the other hand, things that are “easier” may not suffice the troubles you face now. I guess it’s either, do easy – but pay the consequences later, or do hard – but secure your future with new players understanding of the game.
Boring for experienced players you say? Well, hey, have the tutorial force new players that have no characters on their accounts. On accounts with other characters on that have already completed the tutorial, make it skippable.
And to play devils advocate: You’ve stated this would be boring. I’ve got 2 accounts, and 11 characters in total…I still have to do the entry personal storyline EVERY time I start a new character. This is boring for veterans. Yet it’s still in the game with no intention of being removed, revamped or skippable AFAIK, and you could easily have the start point for alts be after the first initial personal story point.
I have to disagree here. A good tutorial system is one which actually tutors the player with the game’s systems that they may not be familiar with, not just unlocking it and then hoping you learn the basics of it yourself.
(edited by nethykins.7986)
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Hey Jon,
I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?Wow .. such genius. But hey, that would be too … i don’t know… what’s the word… intelligent?
I don’t know about anyone else but I would have loved a tutorial/introduction video with Colin Johanson explaining the dodge system, and all the thing you unlock while levling 1-80 (wvw, pvp, dungeons, world bosses, traits, new skills etc) so that you have something to look forward to. They should ofc also have some awesome intense music och game footage aswell as some living story hype in it. If the player know what they will get and when they will get it then they will already have a few goals even before they enter the starting area.
I’ve got no problem with the idea of layering the gaining of abilities, and even pacing out the acquisition of traits is not a bad idea.. but regarding the whole idea of tutorial or teaching: merely pacing out acquisition doesn’t count as teaching.
I see from the feature pack previews you’re going to be putting little dialogue boxes when you level. That’s a good start – and obviously I haven’t seen these little popups in action, but hopefully they have little text tips in them regarding the actual use of the downed state and trait system, etc.
Like : ‘Now, when you get defeated you’ll have a chance to revive if you can kill a monster before your time runs out!’
or,
- Pop up trait panel: "Every few levels you’ll get a point to use here. You can change how your attacks work and add other special benefits to your abilities.’
That sorta deal? Wouldn’t be hard; would be super helpful I feel.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
Out of my in-game friends as a segment, I’d say the majority would like for the trait system to revert to what it was before the latest patch. It’s kind of hard to give feedback regarding poor trait placement if my opinion is that the new system should be scrapped, but I’m trying to do so as politely as possible (you can keep the open world-unlockable GM traits, that’s fine with me).
The problem I see with the traits system is:
1. I can’t try out different builds which consist of equipment, trait lines, and utility (6-0) skills. Since the traits have been locked up, I can’t play with them and therefore it reduces the effectiveness of any other build. This is annoying no matter what I am doing in game.
2. Except for the first character (which was grandfathered in anyway), I don’t want to do map completion because it’s too slow paced for me compared to EotM or dungeon running (fun, and way better rewards and exp).
3. I think the trait lines unlocking could be done more effectively.
To expand on point 3, the trait unlocks should be something that can be done in 5-30 minutes per trait. This is because there are 12 traits for each of the 6 different trait lines, totaling 72 traits to unlock. Even 72*0.5 = 36 hours of trait unlocking. But in the current system it would take 150-250 hours to unlock traits because completing a map is something that takes 3 hours at the quickest. I didn’t even spend 100 hours getting my character to 80, I spend about 30 hours doing that. So unlocking traits is therefore 700% more intense than getting a character to max level. I can also make 55 gold in about 30 hours, so the cost of the traits from the unlocker is WAY less than the cost to do what it says to unlock them. Now, this is why everybody dislikes the trait system.
What should be implemented instead?
There are two options for the trait system, which could be effective.
1. Unlock all the traits and make the rewards system for completing those objectives better. Upon completing a map (a common task to unlock a trait), the reward doesn’t seem like I am getting rewards for 4 hours of play. There could be different incentives for completing full maps: titles, skins, equipment that matches the level of the character upon completion, currencies, crafting materials.
2. Rework the traits unlock system to give players quicker things to do in order to unlock a trait. This means something in the 5-30 minutes range. It could be going to talk to some person in X meaningful location. It could mean go to the skill trainer, portal into Y instance and brawl this veteran who embodies the trait for S, W, and Z reasons. Bonus points for enforcing a particular fighting style. There are other ways too.
The fact is that the trait system is really taxing on old and new players. I have two friends who just picked up the game and both did not like the trait system because by level 40, they can’t do anything with the traits system. And getting to level 40 in PvE is 20 hours of game time. Playing the game for 20 hours is enough time to beat a AAA console game three times, so it is for sure enough time to understand the game.
There are also plenty of RPG games with very complicated skill trees and trait trees which are critically acclaimed and popular. This reasons that the common player of RPG games knows what skill trees (and therefore trait lines) ARE and knows how to use them. Furthermore, this exemplifies that having locked traits for the sake of not overwhelming a new player is very ineffective. It is highly probable that any new player will know what a trait line is, and if they don’t know or don’t understand it they will likely just look up a build and run it without questioning.
These people just got detached from a whole section of the game. My college professors say that hands on experience is the best way to learn something, which means an open and unlocked trait system is the best way to learn the trait system. Give the players (old and new) things to play around with and get suited to their own style! If they can’t play with the traits hands-on, and then follow an established build, then they likely won’t bother unlocking any other traits other than what is required by the build. And that, is bad because not only will players not understand the trait system, they won’t get to learn it unless they put 200 hours onto a single character. That doesn’t sound casual friendly like the rest of the game.
Don’t spend time making a 200 hour trait system, just put more CONTENT into the game and people will play for 200 hours!
(edited by Orikon.8170)
While we’re on the subject of offending trait unlocks, how about you make a lot of them unlock through skill challenges?
It’s just a random thought I had – could be a terrible idea. The immediate merit I see in it is that: 1) It’s fairly easy to unlock solo 2) It gets people more skill points at the same time, which is always a good thing. 3) There’s no “wait time” for something (such as an event) to happen – you can do it whenever you want.
Or words to that effect.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…
Hello Jon Peters.
As I stated previously on this thread, I am a new(ish) player with a single character, that is now lvl 80. I’m glad to provide feedback on this traits issue.
I have never experienced the previous system, so I can’t make comparisons. What I can say is that, to me, unlocking the traits felt more like a chore than a rewarding challenge.
Of course unlocking some of them was kind of painless, but only because I was doing the personal story and I want to get 100% world completion.
Unlocking other traits, though, required patience and/or sheer luck.
In certain cases I had to give up and buy the thing, and from a newbie standpoint it didn’t feel great, because I didn’t have gold to spare. It felt like the trait system was ultimately something for “rich” players.
You ask for specifics on the offensive trait unlock locations; I find myself agreeing with Kain Francois.4328:
X- 100% anything… No, no, no, no!!!! I do not want to do map completion on my 5th alt.
X- Kill Champion X [Group Event] and timegates. Waiting for Champ to spawn, then waiting for people to help…
X- Personal Story Traits… Too little, too late. A possible consequence of traits unlocking at level 30 instead of level 10.
X- “Find the grand chest near Scholar Fryxx.” (Straits of Devastation) This one is just annoying.
X- Any WvW objectives… This is THE worst of all trait unlocks! It combines time gates of waiting until an Ogre Camp expires, so that you could cap it… Then it also has the issue of no one wanted to help out. I’m sure even your own metrics will report that trying to kill the Overgrown Grub is dumb.
That said, I have the strong feeling that the fix is going to revolve around switching the most offensive trait unlock locations. In my opinion that may not be an ideal solution.
I’d much rather have the trait unlock valid for all my future characters: in all honesty one of the reasons I don’t feel like creating a new character is that I don’t look forward to repeating those same events/activities/missions.
So I add my voice to those who ask to please make the traits unlocks “account bound”.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…
Would you also stop the loot by profession change? or do we have to wait for 42+ pages of feedback… its already 9 pages and from this Sept 9 it will then be “too hard” to change and we will have to satisfy with “changing the word possibility with probability”… stop it now before its to hard to remove!
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…
If you are going to revamp the whole system in a matter of months, why not just go the route of least resistance and most happy players by unlocking all of the traits?
Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm new players that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for new players to develop into longtime players.
Urggh. Here’s a better design idea: don’t treat players as dumb unless they’re actually being dumb. There’s nothing wrong with introducing traits at level 10. If a player doesn’t pay attention and has no spent trait points, give them another helpful popup every time they level up, getting more direct each time until at level 80 it practically says “look mate, your character’s a kitten”. There’s nothing wrong in saying to players “hey! there’s a new feature available for you now, you can give it a look if you like or go back to it later” rather than “Sorry, this very useful key feature is currently unavailable because there’s a chance you might be too dumb to understand it even though it’s a basic slot/choice system that is in every computer game with roleplaying elements ever”.
On topic:
As for the unlock objectives, the idea has its merits but it doesn’t work at all in practice. This is particularly true for the first tier of traits, where the option to a new player to unlock something basic is to either do some obscure level 50-60ish objective or just pay 2 skill points and some silver to unlock it for no effort (an option many new players won’t even see). It would have made more sense to have all those objectives unlock Elite Skills and tokens for starter level 80 gear and some optional stuff rather than unlock traits.
And sending newbies to Obsidian Sanctum? That’s just evil.
Subscribe for exciting guild wars 2 videos! https://www.youtube.com/user/eulololia/
(edited by Eulolia.2467)
The whole problem with the system is that it broke something that it shouldn’t have: when people asked for horizontal progression they didn’t say they wanted it in their vertical progression.
New players are stuck with a system that is slower than before, more complicated, requires tedious tasks and hurts their chances at group content (as now theyre not only low level with bad gear but ALSO dont have their traits unlocked.).
On the veteran player side it just make it annoying. Having to do everything again? I dont want to. I already experience the tedious process of my first char and I certainly dont want to go through it again unless I have to (like the case of needing map 100% for making my 3rd legendary).
Truth is traits should be account unlocks, once the player manages to jumps the hoops to unlock a trait his second- Xth character shouldn’t be subjected to it.
Hey all,
I see a lot of people talking but with a thread this long the details are often muddied by a large number of similar but differing opinions. I want to address some of the more straightforward stuff.
Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm new players that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for new players to develop into longtime players. Without more longtime players it becomes hard for you and your current guilds to meet and find people to replace those who inevitably will be pulled away by real life from time to time.
Unlocking traits. We talked about this a bunch in the horizontal progression CDI and it came to our attention that many players were not learning about traits, how they worked, or understanding the options. When we talked through unlocking traits via activities it led us in the direction we have currently. Unfortunately, unlocking traits in the open world generally causes one of the #1 things we never wanted in the game which is players in conflict. You want might the Balthazar trait but someone is about to complete the chain and leave you waiting. This is bad for the game, but I think right now only occurs this dramatically for a few of the traits.
If you all list out the most offensive ones here we would be happy to look into changes given that we have already done so in the past when we switch many of the poorly placed map complete adept tier traits among a few other changes. Here is a list of those changes:
• Profession Trait 13: This trait is now awarded upon preventing the Statue of Lyssa from being re-taken by the Risen, as well as defeating the corrupted high priestess of Lyssa.
• Precision Adept Trait 5: This trait has been moved from Bloodtide Coast map completion to the defeat of Sharky the Destroyer in Arca Lake of the Harathi Hinterlands.
• Precision Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Fireheart Rise map completion, to the defeat of Captain Jayne in the Brigantine Isles of the Gendarran Fields.
• Toughness Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Iron Marches map completion, to the defeat of the Giant Blood Ooze in the Challdar Gorges of the Bloodtide Coast.
• Vitality Adept Trait 5: This trait has been moved from Timberline Falls map completion, to the defeat of Gargantula, the spider broodmother in the Wynchona Woods of Harathi Hinterlands.
• Vitality Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Mount Maelstrom Map Completion, to the defeat of the Krait Witch in Timberline Falls.
• Profession line Adept Trait 5: This trait has been moved from Sparkfly Fen map completion, to the defeat of the Champion Ice Wurm in Lornar’s Pass.
• Profession line Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Frostgorge Sound map completion, to the defeat of Lord Ignius the Eternal of Lornar’s Pass.At the end of the day this system has helped spread out the teaching of the system and the feeling of accomplishment through acquisition, but it has done it in ways that are sometimes counterproductive and still not nearly visible enough to impact as many players as it could.
Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.
TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.
Why can’t you just change it back to the way it was before the april 2014 feature patch, then? Or, like I said, make the adept traits free, and make master and grandmaster unlockable. That would seem to be an easy fix.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
Thank you, that is nice to hear.
Please be more honest and straight-forward like this in the future.
You ask for specifics on the offensive trait unlock locations; I find myself agreeing with Kain Francois.4328:
X- 100% anything… No, no, no, no!!!! I do not want to do map completion on my 5th alt.
X- Kill Champion X [Group Event] and timegates. Waiting for Champ to spawn, then waiting for people to help…
X- Personal Story Traits… Too little, too late. A possible consequence of traits unlocking at level 30 instead of level 10.
X- “Find the grand chest near Scholar Fryxx.” (Straits of Devastation) This one is just annoying.
X- Any WvW objectives… This is THE worst of all trait unlocks! It combines time gates of waiting until an Ogre Camp expires, so that you could cap it… Then it also has the issue of no one wanted to help out. I’m sure even your own metrics will report that trying to kill the Overgrown Grub is dumb.
This happened to my 4th character, my thief when I got to 80. I only needed this one grandmaster trait (I don’t remember the name of it) for the build I wanted, it’s the one you get from lyssa. But not knowing when she would spawn was really annoying especially if you don’t keep track of timers (which I don’t think new players do) or want to just sit in the area until she spawns, so I ended up buying the trait instead. If I would have been a new player this really would have been a boring experience.
I think the thing ArenaNet didn’t anticipate with this system is that players would EXPECT (yes, EXPECT, not WANT) to unlock EACH AND EVERY TRAIT RIGHT AWAY instead of unlocking them as needed for a build.
I absolutely don’t understand this desire, but it certainly seems widespread. For players who have it, their characters feel “incomplete” until they finish unlocking everything. Which is, as many have said, time-consuming and expensive.
I think the best bet would be to reduce the cost of paying for traits or to switch trait unlocks to Grandmaster only.
You mean, it’s unreasonable for us to expect to get something we had before the april 2014 feature patch?
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…
If you are going to revamp the whole system in a matter of months, why not just go the route of least resistance and most happy players by unlocking all of the traits?
That’d probably create more grandfathering issues than is reasonable to deal with in a space of time between now and the creation of a better system.
The point is, the current system does do what it’s supposed to do: it slowly introduces players to the trait system.
That said, the system is tedious and sucks especially for vets, but it does link traits to some kind of progression/reward system. They want to keep that sense of achievement and gradual learning, so reverting the system into the free-for-all isn’t the right answer at this specific juncture in time.
So, the best that can be offered in the interim is to lessen the burden created by the present system, which is why he’s asking for feedback on specific trait activities.
(edited by Cross.6437)
The issue with the current trait system is that, to use the GW1 analogy this was based on, this system is like if you had to use the signet of capture to get every single skill in the game or pay 5gold for each of them. For Grandmasters, this system makes sense, after all most of them dictate your entire playstyle it makes sense to have to hunt them down, they’re basically the Elite skills of GW2.
But for Adapt and Master traits, it’s just tedious to go out of your way to find all of them or to pay the large gold and skill point sum to earn them. They should be just like regular GW1 skills, cheap, easy to find and only expensive if you want to collect them all.
So I say cut the cost of adapt and master traits, and add more then one way to unlock them. An average player should run into most of these traits before they finish leveling.
Retired Leader of TTS
Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players.=
Can we use this as an argument to make this trait system unlocked account-wide?
I’m all about helping new players, but the current system is tedious and expensive for veterans who make alts. It sort of flies in the face of more alt-friendly systems like the wardrobe and ascended gear.
I see no reason why this shouldn’t be the case, and it appears to be the simplest solution while maintaining the “new player experience” of exploring and unlocking. Achievements are account wide and you do not need to re-do achievements per character, so why do I need to re-unlock traits by re-doing the achievement? Same rationale for purchasing the unlocked trait.
The new player still has the traits trickle into their repertoire. The veteran has a more enjoyable new-character experience.
It’s not even a significant advantage for veterans (as opposed to just a less annoying one). Even with all traits unlocked, you would still be unable to use one until Level 36 when you have access to 2 trait points and get to use your first Adept trait. Then Level 48 when you can have your pick of the second Adept trait. You would still have no access to engage any Master traits until Level 60. It’s just less annoying for an experienced player to deal with – having to either buy a trait again or re-do an achievement that they had once done with a previous character already.
The most offensive trait unlocks are the vendor books.
40g and 360 skillpoints is an exponential increase over the previous… what was it? 3g?
You want us to go through the traits list and do something you should be doing because you can’t be bothered to go through this 43 page thread that’s been around since April? This “specific information” you’re after? It’s all here. It’s been stated and restated.
Seriously, what kind of confidence am I supposed to have in the development team at this point?
This is the sort of communication that would have been helpful to guide the discussion immediately following the feature patch. Heck, even a month or two afterward. But nearly five months, and you are going to disregard the entirety of the thread because it’s too much to read?
“Be angry about legendary weapons, sure, but what about the recent drought of content?”
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
-Mike O’Brien
Because we can’t be angry about both?
I would overhaul the system and create 3 trait lines
- offensive
- hybrid/mix
- defensive
I would merge all those damage into one an put it into the offensive line and put the other traits into the lines where they fit the most.
How to get these traits: map completion, or boss/chamion kill, karma, gold, story, dungeon. , = or
With that system the whole trait environment gets simplified and you can get it the way you want to get those traits.
Another idea is
- offensive
- defensiv
- profession specified for more class uniquess.
@JonPeters
Trait unlocks
Problem: Unlock trigger has very little to do with trait unlocked in most cases.
Why is this a problem?: If the idea is to introduce a system to a new player, and teach them about it, the unlock not relating to the trait is just really confusing. Why did I get this just now?
Proposal: Rework unlocks so that they directly or indirectly relate to the trait unlocked.
Examples:
- Falling damage reduction traits unlock if you survive a fall closely (<10% HP).
- On-dodge traits would unlock after X successful dodges. It follows logically, you dodges a lot, here, a trait to dodge even better!
- On-downed traits unlock from 5-10 times rallying yourself from downed.
Etc. Some are based on doing something related X times, others are one-time-only like the falling one, yet others are based on specific combinations of circumstances (Engineer -20% damage when knocked down gained from taking downing damage by an attack which would knock you away otherwise).
But in all cases, the trait unlocked has something to do with what you were doing when you unlocked it.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…
Thank you!
You want us to go through the traits list and do something you should be doing because you can’t be bothered to go through this 43 page thread that’s been around since April? This “specific information” you’re after? It’s all here. It’s been stated and restated.
Yes. That’s exactly what he wants, because now we have a focus and a purpose.
Thanks. I’ll pass this on.
So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.
From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.
I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.
To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.
So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?
Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.
Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…
He wants to know how to make what we’ve got tolerable in the more foreseeable future, which means he needs clear and concise lists focused on a single topic in order to act more quickly and effectively.
He’s telling us what he wants so that he can work on something specific. This is how feedback is supposed to work.
We all know the current system is majorly flawed. Heck, THEY know the current system is majorly flawed, but they’re trying to do what they can in the short-term so that they have the freedom to consider the long-term.
Can’t we just unlock 5 traits every 5 levels with start at level 10? Something like this:
Lvl 10: 5 new traits (Total: 5)
Lvl 15: 5 new traits (Total: 10)
Lvl 20: 5 new traits (Total: 15)
Lvl 25: 5 new traits (Total: 20)
Lvl 30: 5 new traits (Total: 25)
Lvl 35: 5 new traits (Total: 30)
Lvl 40: 5 new traits (Total: 35)
Lvl 45: 5 new traits (Total: 40)
Lvl 50: 5 new traits (Total: 45)
Lvl 55: 5 new traits (Total: 50)
Lvl 60: 5 new traits (Total: 55)
Lvl 65: 5 new traits (Total: 60)
Lvl 70: 5 new traits (Total: 65)
This way it wouldn’t overwhelm new player and still give them some build diversity as they are leveling up.
(edited by Zenty.3596)
Short Version: Dead levels are boring and turn people off. Laundry list trait unlocks are not conducive to entertaining play. Adept traits should be unlocked automatically. Return trait tiers to their previous levels. Please.
Fully agree.
To point out my beta experience for another game, by the time I hit level 13, I knew what I needed to know for game basics, and I was ready to go through more. In fact, when certain options opened up, but they were locked, I was actually pretty ticked.
Synopsis of that experience: “My traits are locked behind skills books? Okay, cool. Been there, done that. …I have to find them in world drops? …F this game.” Not only that, but it held me back from crafting and trading. I never got that far, because of the boredom and frustration. Turns out, I could’ve purchased those skill books from the auction house, if only the game hadn’t assumed I would be too confused to know how to use an auction house. -_-#
And the dead level thing is a real issue. Aside from Personal Story chunks, there’s very little to do as far as direction in the leveling experience. This is made worse by how badly the traits are spaced out. Especially worse because the trait unlocks are so back-loaded toward 80. It’s actually fairly insulting and discourages exploration of the traits I did get.
I can understand using the lure of traits to getting people to do content, but shouldn’t they be based more on how players play rather than seek rewards?
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632