Guild Wars 2

Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…

See, and when we players talk about “communication,” what we mean is that we want you to give us your thoughts on these systems as you have them, rather than waiting for the feature to launch. The traits overhaul is a prime example of why the current model of communication is a total failure. You seem to believe that you were doing us a favor with the trait overhaul, that you were doing something we would want. Well we could have told you that we didn’t want any of this, but you never bothered to ask.

If you’d told us six months out “hey, we’re working on a system where instead of getting your first Adept minor trait at level 15 you’ll be getting it at 30, and your first major at 36,” we would have told you “well that sounds awful.” And if you’d go on to say “and instead of being able to pick any trait in that tier you want, you’ll have to unlock each separately by jumping through hoops, preventing you from trying any of them out in advance,” we’d have spoken right up with “and that sounds even worse,” and then you would have saved yourself months of work in implementing it, and months more work turning it all back, and saved us about a year of having to put up with the system in the meantime.

The new mantra for dev communication needs to become “early and often," especially that first bit.

Carighan.6758:

@JonPeters

Trait unlocks
Problem: Unlock trigger has very little to do with trait unlocked in most cases.
Why is this a problem?: If the idea is to introduce a system to a new player, and teach them about it, the unlock not relating to the trait is just really confusing. Why did I get this just now?
Proposal: Rework unlocks so that they directly or indirectly relate to the trait unlocked.

Examples:

• Falling damage reduction traits unlock if you survive a fall closely (<10% HP).
• On-dodge traits would unlock after X successful dodges. It follows logically, you dodges a lot, here, a trait to dodge even better!
• On-downed traits unlock from 5-10 times rallying yourself from downed.

Etc. Some are based on doing something related X times, others are one-time-only like the falling one, yet others are based on specific combinations of circumstances (Engineer -20% damage when knocked down gained from taking downing damage by an attack which would knock you away otherwise).

But in all cases, the trait unlocked has something to do with what you were doing when you unlocked it.

I like this way of approaching unlocks. It makes me excited at the thought of unlocking traits.

“most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost.”

The alternative is players need to be introduced to systems more quickly so that they don’t get bored. It doesn’t take very long at all to unlock all of your weapon skills. Traits allow you enhance and diversify your gameplay. I’m not saying that many people get bored and quit before level 30, but either way traits keep things interesting.

Never played this system because my characters are old, but my idea is to unlock something like “trait points”, so you can use that points in the traits you want, similar to skill points, but you dont get by leveling but doing activities on the game.

@JonPeterts

To ease up the new system, I recommend the following:

• Make the first adept trait (number I) for each trait line unlocked by default. (Talk to the balancing team about re-ordering some of the trait’s numbers too, so that the number I would be a broad trait instead of a niche trait).
• Make as many adept traits unlocked by story instances from lv30 and on as possible.
• Make five master traits unlocked by the last five story instances (not sure if that’s already the case or not).
• Remove all map exploration/ jumping puzzle requirement for traits. One of the problems with this new system, is that you’re treating it like you treated dailies: as an incentive to do other types of content, when traits are much more than that: it’s a core progression system.

Cross.6437:

Guhracie.3419:

You want us to go through the traits list and do something you should be doing because you can’t be bothered to go through this 43 page thread that’s been around since April? This “specific information” you’re after? It’s all here. It’s been stated and restated.

Yes. That’s exactly what he wants, because now we have a focus and a purpose.

JonPeters.5630:

Cross.6437:

JonPeters.5630:

Lazuli.2098:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks. I’ll pass this on.

So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.

From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.

I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.

To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.

So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?

Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.

Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…

He wants to know how to make what we’ve got tolerable in the more foreseeable future, which means he needs clear and concise lists focused on a single topic in order to act more quickly and effectively.

He’s telling us what he wants so that he can work on something specific. This is how feedback is supposed to work.

We all know the current system is majorly flawed. Heck, THEY know the current system is majorly flawed, but they’re trying to do what they can in the short-term so that they have the freedom to consider the long-term.

Perhaps if they hadn’t ignored the thread for 4 months, it wouldn’t be so overwhelming large for them to read? As for “They know it’s majorly flawed” if only there was some big feature patch coming out that they could introduce changes to the trait system four months after releasing the failure of a trait system they introduced with the “sincere, singular hope of absolutely delighting you.” Here’s a tip: We’re are NOT absolutely delighted.

It seems quite a few agree that having unlocks depend on defeating some particular champ is not wonderful; what about if you still had to defeat a champ, but rather than a particular one, it could be any champ in area X?

I actually like the idea of some traits depending on accomplishing something, rather than just leveling, but it is also true that you can get really stuck if there’s no one around doing the one specific thing required. Maybe a range of possibilities would be better.

I know this could get clunky in terms of explaining or even just listing the range; perhaps when a player wants to get details on how to unlock, they can click a a button in the train line to “write to your trainer for advice” which would trigger you getting a letter with the details?

Certain events, like karka queen are a real pain to accomplish if you don’t land on a map where someone has organized a run; I’m not sure what range of options would be best there. But in Orr, there are champs all over the place, and several different meta events, so maybe rather than a specific one, you could choose from a bunch.

So also could say “complete the Fort Trinity episode, OR defend a castle in WvW.” —This is kind of off the top of my head, and I’m sure there might be better combinations, but you get the idea. (I hope!).

JonPeters.5630:

barefootstep.7026:

nethykins.7986:

I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?

This. So much this.

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.

So…your argument basically is:

“Of course tutorials don’t solve the problem; tutorials stink.
That’s why we just implemented a clear and concise process that solves the problem by tut…ehm…teaching new players about their options one by one.”

Huh.

Secondly, your “hard to implement” line is bullkitten. I’ve seen your game, I know that challenge doesn’t stop anyone in your team.

And finally: The one tutorial worse than a bad tutorial is an unskippable (and, to a lesser degree, non-repeatable) one. You acknowledged that with the feature pack, to a degree, but the traits (remember: the focus of this thread) are mandatory. For alts as well as the builder type of new player that grasps rules quickly and likes to tinker better than fulfilling shopping lists.

So please: make unlocks account bound.

Oh, and thanks for reading, and joining the discussion. Having information we don’t like beats having no information at all by a long shot.

JonPeters.5630:

[…]
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.[…]

• Do not require map completion altogether. There’s at least several 100% map completions left. I’d recommend replacing those with taking part on a number of steps in certain meta events. Teach people to be there from the start instead going directly for the boss after having others do all the work with the previous events in the chain. People who wants to explore will explore anyways.
• Fix bugs. The Commissar, Branded Devourer Queen and Foulbear chieftan events are often bugged or stalled, making impossible to get these traits after they stall. They should have been fixed before using them as requirement, instead, things were made even worse for the branded devourer queen. When the mordrem appeared in Iron Marches, the new mordrem events permanently stalled the entire devourer queen quest chain. You could attempt the event after an update reseted the stalling event chains, but now the event won’t budge from the start as the constantly repeating mordrem events interfere with the devourer escort. The escort should be moved out of the way (have them jump in the water, devourers can swim), so the mordrem won’t interfere, and the bugs MUST be fixed, so the event chain will never, ever stall again.
• Reduce the minimum scaling for the Overgrown Grub, or improve the rewards with a bonus chest. And have 3 legendary bosses in the Eternal Battleground instead just the grub and the spirit, and make the trait unlock with any of them. Getting help for this one is impossible. No one wants to bother with it, specially if your world is not currently blue.
• Temples: Introduce forced resets for the event chains. Keep them working right now between resets, but when the timer kicks in, the event is forcefully reset. That temple’s priest spawns invulnerable, chases away any pact around, any event part of the meta currently going on would fail, and the event would go back to the initial stage. The resets could happen in intervals of 30 minutes in a 3-hour cycle, and a message with a timer would appear 30 min before the reset warning players that the priest/priestess/wizard has started their restoration, and that any events currently going on will fail if they can’t finish the event chain before that happens.
  The timers could go like this:
  • Balthazar 00:20
  • Lyssa: 00:50
  • Dwayna: 01:20
  • Melandu: 1:50
  • Grenth: 2:20
  • Gatesof Arah: 2:50.

As a tangent: exploration. I love it, and so does Anet, judging from the previous design.

I love the sense of wonder when stumbling upon a cave or a mini dungeon or a bend or a nook that I haven’t seen before.

So for the love of Melandru, don’t turn Tyria into an obligatory theme park ride with these “go see this underplayed content” trait quests. It’ll kill the game for the explorer type. Honestly, I didn’t know there was a sunken ship mini dungeon in the straights before. Now I know, because I had to research it. Felt like a spoiler.

Cross.6437:

Guhracie.3419:

You want us to go through the traits list and do something you should be doing because you can’t be bothered to go through this 43 page thread that’s been around since April? This “specific information” you’re after? It’s all here. It’s been stated and restated.

Yes. That’s exactly what he wants, because now we have a focus and a purpose.

JonPeters.5630:

Cross.6437:

JonPeters.5630:

Lazuli.2098:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks. I’ll pass this on.

So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.

From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.

I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.

To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.

So, if I’m reading this right, are you saying, you’re looking for quick changes to make the system more bearable while not confirming or denying the possibility of a holistic revamp at some point in the indeterminate future?

Because knowing that would really settle some of my anxiety about the existence of this request for feedback.

Yup. and I would replace the word possibility with the word probability…

He wants to know how to make what we’ve got tolerable in the more foreseeable future, which means he needs clear and concise lists focused on a single topic in order to act more quickly and effectively.

He’s telling us what he wants so that he can work on something specific. This is how feedback is supposed to work.

We all know the current system is majorly flawed. Heck, THEY know the current system is majorly flawed, but they’re trying to do what they can in the short-term so that they have the freedom to consider the long-term.

Oh! Okay. So what you’re saying is that feedback works when there’s an interaction between both parties, wherein one party communicates what they need and the other party communicates what they need to know in order to give the first party what they need? Thanks for clearing that up. Obviously my anger is misplaced.

See, I was under the impression that when this so-called “feedback thread” was started, four and a half months ago, we were providing the developers with feedback. I didn’t realize that I was supposed to wait for them to draw out specifications before giving my feedback, and I certainly didn’t realize that it would take them nearly half a year to come up with a suitable line of communication.

I obviously have a lot to learn about how feedback “works.”

JonPeters.5630:

felessan.9587:

JonPeters.5630:

Lazuli.2098:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks. I’ll pass this on.

So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.

From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.

I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.

To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.

Thank you, that is nice to hear.

Please be more honest and straight-forward like this in the future.

To be fair, we love being this honest and straight forward normally though it just ends up sounding like a bunch of talk and not a lot of walk and that is because it takes time to be this active on the boards. After today I’ll be a bit less “forum active” again but that means I am working on making the game better.

Well, anytime you have a question about what players think about something, what direction we might prefer, what we would consider to be worth it/not worth it, please feel free to ask or even just pass along a request for a community manager to ask. Just seeing a red response is enough to demonstrate that stuff is being read.

Also, imho, completing Obsidian Sanctum is way too difficult for a tier one trait unlock. And anything that requires level 80 should be relegated to tier 3 unlocks. The trait unlocks involving Frostgorge should be tier 3. Replace Arundon Vale with Obsidian Sanctum and make the Tier 1 unlock something like “Kill the imp lord” in Dredgehaunt Cliffs.

JonPeters.5630:

Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm new players that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for new players to develop into longtime players. Without more longtime players it becomes hard for you and your current guilds to meet and find people to replace those who inevitably will be pulled away by real life from time to time.

That is such a cop-out. Stop trying to instill fear of a population decline, by justifying support of a terrible implementation of the new trait system. Instead, have you ever asked yourself, “what if these new players quit because it takes too long to see any progress, thus leaving them underwhelmed?”. It goes both ways. The older system gives more freedom at least, and it doesn’t punish new players at all. The new system punishes new players more than it helps. At least with the old system, they could have some traits, instead of no traits.

Unlocking traits. We talked about this a bunch in the horizontal progression CDI and it came to our attention that many players were not learning about traits, how they worked, or understanding the options.

It’s really condescending to think players wouldn’t know how traits work, or what they are for. Give your customers some credit once in awhile. Your playerbase have been playing the MMO genre for over a decade now. Lately, this company has been treating their playerbase like an 8 year old, whether it’s the FPS/FoV issues, downed state, and now traits. Yes, there are new players to the genre, but are they really worth alienating your more established MMO players? Is Anet aiming for console and facebook gamers?

Perhaps you didn’t know, but there is a section named Skills & Traits in the Hints panel (which is located at the top-left menu). Here’s what it says, “Click the hero button [H] to assign unspent trait points. Earn trait points as you level up, which can be spent to improve yourself.” Instead of revamping the entire trait system, you could’ve just expanded on this panel with more in-depth details, by alerting players to it with a pop-up message.

If you all list out the most offensive ones here we would be happy to look into changes given that we have already done so in the past when we switch many of the poorly placed map complete adept tier traits among a few other changes. Here is a list of those changes:

…snip…

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide#Trait_unlock_methods_sorted_by_level_range
There you go.
Tier 1 Adept traits that require level 50 story steps.
Tier 1 Adept trait that requires CM Story Mode, which is lvl 40 or 45.
Tier 1 Adept traits that requires TA Story Mode, which is lvl 50 or 55.
Tier 1 Adept traits that require killing a lvl 52 giant ooze.
Four tier 1 Adept traits, that require WvW unlocks, isn’t reasonable for new players.

I could go on, but just look at that link, and you can see how out of place these traits are for a level 30.
I understand Tier 1 Adept is for 30-60, but it is very time consuming, and confusing. New players will have to stop playing how they want, because they will now have to go out of their way to unlock these traits.

The biggest issue though, is that they will never know if these traits are even worth acquiring or not, because they have to first unlock them to test them!

Has it also occurred to you that new players do not have all the waypoints unlocked? Do you know how confusing it is to travel between capital cities via portals for new players? You’ll be surprised to know how many players leave dungeon groups because they do not know how to travel to the zone where the dungeon is located. It’s the same confusion now, added to the trait acquisition system.

So now they’re being punished because they have to travel from the human starter zones to charr territories or norn zones, and vice-versa. It’s even more confusing than the previous system, because new players do not know how to travel to these areas, due to the undiscovered map zones. There are many solutions to this, such as adding portal icons, on the map, in all zones that connect the maps; or just having the waypoints unlocked already. The little telescope icon that directs players to a vague area doesn’t help enough.

I’m not sure why you still need feedback though. You have 4 months, and 44 pages, worth of constructive feedback, detailing the pros and cons of this new system. It just feels like wasting time on an obvious broken system, which should be reverted.

@JonPeters:

You mentioned that the thread seemed dauntingly long. If it seems too long to read in its entirety, maybe that very length is a message in itself. The topic is over four months old. It continues to attract new traffic. The overwhelming majority of the traffic from start to finish has expressed strong dislike of the new trait system. Many commenters have requested a return to the previous system.

I’d say it’s fairly clear that the new trait system is not popular.

My own guild is unanimously of the same opinion: the old trait system is an improvement in pretty much every way over the new one. The new one functions chiefly as an incentive to avoid creating new characters. If our members could have their way, Guild Wars 2 would restore the previous trait system and just forget this little episode had ever happened.

I’d like to avoid any hyperbole, but I have to say that this change has our members shaking their heads. It seems misguided to the point that it’s difficult to account for.

OK, I’ve calmed down… a bit.

My issue:

I should not have to print out a 3 page list of trait unlocks and hunt them down. From a new player point of view, how does this help me? I think the old system was fine. What was missing was information about what to do with traits, why they are important, and how to use them effectively.

I think having adept and major traits unlock with leveling would be ok, having only the grandmaster traits as “out in the world” things, NOT including WvW, dungeons or JPs. There’s already enough carrots for people to do those (tokens, cool armor, achievement points) that traits do not need to be locked behind them as well.

But still – some helpful instruction – in game – on how to use traits would be most helpful to new players. Personally, when I first got the game, I had traits all over the place, that didn’t synergize with anything. Why? I had no idea what traits really did or why I had them. Maybe that’s where you should focus on with new players, not locking the things behind content they may know nothing about or they don’t understand.

And again, as stated by many, many players here: some of the current unlocks are just plain kitten – 100% map completion, befriending hyleks in WvW, the giant grub in WvW, obsidian sanctum, just to name a FEW.

But hey, this has all been said over and over and over. I think that coming out and saying “we asked for feedback 5.5 months ago but then ignored everything you said and now it’s too much to read” is just a slap in the face – thus my anger. I feel at this point that there is NO POINT to posting any ideas in this forum. Either they’re twisted into something verging on evil, or completely ignored.

I can’t comment too extensively now, but just something I experienced the other day on my test alt:

One of my traits was to defeat an NPC (I’m guessing of note) out in Gredgehaunt. The problem is, the “tooltip” was horrifically vague and just told me that the enemy was somewhere near <insert waypoint here>. Aside from not frequenting this area since I first made my original toon and not being very familiar with it, I can’t imagine how frustrating it must be for a brand new player to go hunting for this trait and needing to go look up the information online just so they know who to go to or where to go just to get this one ADEPT level trait. Its nonsense. I will come back later when I have some more time with more specific info about this, and although grateful that someone has been actively responding, I am getting the distinct impression that movement on this will be slower than syrup in winter. *(Would have used the proper term but worried it would have been filtered into molkitten)

Ya, the most concise single short-term suggestion is to make the unlocks account bound.

Keeps the pacing for newbies and lets vets play with build variety a bit more.

JonPeters.5630:

Hey all,

I see a lot of people talking but with a thread this long the details are often muddied by a large number of similar but differing opinions. I want to address some of the more straightforward stuff.

Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm new players that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for new players to develop into longtime players. Without more longtime players it becomes hard for you and your current guilds to meet and find people to replace those who inevitably will be pulled away by real life from time to time.

Unlocking traits. We talked about this a bunch in the horizontal progression CDI and it came to our attention that many players were not learning about traits, how they worked, or understanding the options. When we talked through unlocking traits via activities it led us in the direction we have currently. Unfortunately, unlocking traits in the open world generally causes one of the #1 things we never wanted in the game which is players in conflict. You want might the Balthazar trait but someone is about to complete the chain and leave you waiting. This is bad for the game, but I think right now only occurs this dramatically for a few of the traits.

If you all list out the most offensive ones here we would be happy to look into changes given that we have already done so in the past when we switch many of the poorly placed map complete adept tier traits among a few other changes. Here is a list of those changes:
• Profession Trait 13: This trait is now awarded upon preventing the Statue of Lyssa from being re-taken by the Risen, as well as defeating the corrupted high priestess of Lyssa.
• Precision Adept Trait 5: This trait has been moved from Bloodtide Coast map completion to the defeat of Sharky the Destroyer in Arca Lake of the Harathi Hinterlands.
• Precision Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Fireheart Rise map completion, to the defeat of Captain Jayne in the Brigantine Isles of the Gendarran Fields.
• Toughness Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Iron Marches map completion, to the defeat of the Giant Blood Ooze in the Challdar Gorges of the Bloodtide Coast.
• Vitality Adept Trait 5: This trait has been moved from Timberline Falls map completion, to the defeat of Gargantula, the spider broodmother in the Wynchona Woods of Harathi Hinterlands.
• Vitality Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Mount Maelstrom Map Completion, to the defeat of the Krait Witch in Timberline Falls.
• Profession line Adept Trait 5: This trait has been moved from Sparkfly Fen map completion, to the defeat of the Champion Ice Wurm in Lornar’s Pass.
• Profession line Adept Trait 6: This trait has been moved from Frostgorge Sound map completion, to the defeat of Lord Ignius the Eternal of Lornar’s Pass.

At the end of the day this system has helped spread out the teaching of the system and the feeling of accomplishment through acquisition, but it has done it in ways that are sometimes counterproductive and still not nearly visible enough to impact as many players as it could.

Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.

TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

Nice changes, now you need to actually read about the BIGGEST single PITA traits to unlock …… The Grub in WvWvW who no one ever kills so impossible to get and the JP one in Obsidian Sanctuary ……. moving them would help a lot…. as would doing away with map complete for Lornars Pass ( Have you seen the size of that zone, on EVERY toon = boring and repetative!)

Just make them ACCOUNT WIDE UNLOCKS then maybe people will unlock them so they do not have to do it again and again and again and again over and over on every alt !

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Leveling-a-Mesmer-Does-it-get-better
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/60599-mesmer-what-how/

These kinds of threads have appeared since launch. A new Mesmer player can’t seem to make Mesmer function, posts, and the Mesmer community encourages them to continue until level 30 or 40 (old system) because 10 to 20 trait points (old system) make Mesmer suddenly feel like it works.

I’ve seen similar conversations about Engineer, and getting a solid foundation of traits can make a huge difference for Ele and Thief as well.

The change has pushed all of this back twenty levels. While trying to make things more understandable, you’ve also increased the amount of time before players really experience how a profession will function, giving them more time to abandon a profession, and possibly the entire game.

tl;dr Some professions are frustratingly incomplete feeling until they get at least a foundation of traits to make their core mechanics function well. If you want a short term way to make things better while working on the more complex overhaul, please return trait unlocks to level 10 introduction.

I haven’t got a fresh new character, so trying to work with the new Trait system isn’t quite something I have much experience with. But I am convinced it really needs a lot of tweaking currently while something else is thought up.

The only problem is, I almost foresee this coming out like the Daily/Monthly changes over the course of last two years. More than a few changes to the system and still having something which gives players headaches from time to time.

It’d be great of the Trait to be unlocked had some sort of connection to the “unlock trigger”, in the future system to be developed. I mean, why does capturing “Inferno’s Needle” in Edge of the Mists inspire a ranger to develop the Trait “Malicious Training” (Conditions landed by pets last longer)?

ozmaniandevil.6805:

OK, I’ve calmed down… a bit.

My issue:

I should not have to print out a 3 page list of trait unlocks and hunt them down. From a new player point of view, how does this help me? I think the old system was fine. What was missing was information about what to do with traits, why they are important, and how to use them effectively.

You think that was terrible? Try Elite Skill hunting in GW1 where you had to go to the Wiki more often than not to find the skill, then the boss which gave it. Sometimes this boss was only available in a mission, or only in a terrible place to get to.

As much as I enjoyed Signet of Capture work . . . man there was a lot of a pain in that journey. Though that does bring me to my suggestion:

Any veterans of Guild Wars 1 remember the Skill Tomes? How about that for Traits, something which drops rather than has to be bought with Gold/Gems. (Maybe it can be bought with dungeon tokens or geodes? Or Laurels since some players likely have a ton of those sitting around? Or Karma?)

nethykins.7986:

I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?

This. So much this, too.

JonPeters.5630:

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players.

It’s a little sad that you think this way, since you already have one tutorial that does not seem to be too difficult to implement and that works pretty great and seamlessly with your game: Train with the militia is maybe the best piece of tutorial I have played in a game for a long time. It trains how to block, how to avoid blocks, and how channeling skills work without the player even realizing that she/he is just playing a piece of tutorial.

I always imagined how great a real GW2 tutorial could work consequently using the same principle. Just discard that lazy “do one heart in your starter zone” level 2 personal story step and replace it by one or more actual tutorial hearts near the newbie starter area. You don’t have to give all tutorials out at once, you may distribute them over levels 1 to 10. Using the home instance you could even give profession specific tutorial hearts (yeah, right, one could actually USE the home instance for something!) like a ranger learning how to lock its pet on target, how to tame new animals, and how to swap pets in combat.

And if you fear that you could bore veteran players, you could always give the “heart NPC” a dialog option that would let you fill the heart instantly.

~MRA

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

OK, I’ve calmed down… a bit.

My issue:

I should not have to print out a 3 page list of trait unlocks and hunt them down. From a new player point of view, how does this help me? I think the old system was fine. What was missing was information about what to do with traits, why they are important, and how to use them effectively.

You think that was terrible? Try Elite Skill hunting in GW1 where you had to go to the Wiki more often than not to find the skill, then the boss which gave it. Sometimes this boss was only available in a mission, or only in a terrible place to get to.

As much as I enjoyed Signet of Capture work . . . man there was a lot of a pain in that journey. Though that does bring me to my suggestion:

Any veterans of Guild Wars 1 remember the Skill Tomes? How about that for Traits, something which drops rather than has to be bought with Gold/Gems. (Maybe it can be bought with dungeon tokens or geodes? Or Laurels since some players likely have a ton of those sitting around? Or Karma?)

Considering they modified karma so much that new players have significantly less than it used to be, it sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

Lheimroo.2947:

Ya, the most concise single short-term suggestion is to make the unlocks account bound.

Keeps the pacing for newbies and lets vets play with build variety a bit more.

That’s all well and good, but they also need to look at level of difficulty and fix what is obviously broken, like, now. And the cost. There is no way it should have gone from a few gold to 42g and 300SPs for these traits. Just… no. That kind of cost can only help ANet with gem sales, in which case spouting any semblence of trying to help new or vet players with progression is just a load of hooey.

JonPeters.5630:

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.

Isn`t this kind of short sighted?
This is only something that works for:
- Players who have never played an MMO before
- Players who are new to GW2

If they do not have any experience of other MMO`s, they will have problems in all categories, since they have to learn the game from the ground up.

Players who are new to GW2 will see familiar things and are subsequently able to translate their former experience into this new enviroment.

While I know you made a lot of tests (was it collin who said that? I don`t know), this does not only apply to the new trait system, but also to the other changes you will make with the feature patch.

The trait system right now feels mostly like a quick hackjob, just taking some elements from the CDI, without actually understanding what was meaning behind them. (to be honest, the whole trait unlock feels a bit lazy. Most of it does not feel like a quest for glory, but an annoying rethread of old content, without any meaningfull enhancment to the experience.)

Guild Wars 2 (and 1) was based around the concept: “have access to everything from the start”

While traits were limited for good, they were acessable pretty early so you were able to get familiar with them.

Right now I do not look at them half of the time, because I cannot even use them anyway. I get them way too late to care. I level up several times, just to be greeted with a new traitpoint at some point, where i go: “oh a point, yeah… i think I could put it in…”

The tier system in general feels outdated. Mostly because in PvE the content where it matters is done at lvl 80 anyway and then they have all traits unlocked at that point. (I am talking about the gating to higher tiers, not the tier distinction)

Theroretical the tier system is great. Stop them from getting to powerfull for balance.
however I ask, which balance?
In PvE? against whom?
If we got 5Traitpoints, allow us to set them anywhere we want, without the annoying gating mechanic. let me finish my three traits in the first line at level 50, so i have the attackpower i need and the traits to support my equipment.

Hello Mr. Peters,

The one thing I would change about the system is having traits becoming unlocked for your entire account once you have unlocked them on a character. I recently made a Human Warrior to replace my Charr (the human being my 8th character) and it has been extremely arduous and in no way “rewarding” to have to spend my valuable skill points, gold, or my time to unlock the traits for a second time. I can somewhat understand the need to ease in new players to the trait system when it’s their first time playing a class, but it is in no way helping us players who have already played a class up to 80 and have had experience with all the traits. If anything, this new system has made me not want to make new character because I have determined it is a waste of my time to bother with the new system. It is detrimental to the existing player base and makes me second guess continuing to play the game as much as I do, and this is exactly the opposite of what seems to be intended by this new system.

I would like to echo what Shinjin said.

It is logically inconsistent for the trait unlock system to be considered a way to teach new players about traits, yet still required for every alt we create.

Et ceterum censeo ingenia nova recondam esse (kitchen latin)

But here my list of the greatest trait unlocking offenders. I gave each offender a rating: 10: super horrible, 5: barely tolerable, 1: only mildly annoying.

• All trait unlocks which requires story steps.
  Traits: 1 I, 2 X, 3 II, 3 X, 4 X, 5 III
  Rating: 7 to 10 (depending from how far the story has to be done).
  Nobody should have to do the story, especially not multiple times (for alts).

• All trait unlocks which require map completion.
  Traits: 1 III, 1 V, 2 IV, 3 V, 4 IV, 5 IV
  Rating: 9
  That is one of the tasks I dread the most for alts. It is mindnumbing, if you have to do it over and over again. The world is wonderful but only if you may stroll about without bookkeeping. Map completion the second time and further reminds me of a (gigantic) classic quest of old MMOs. And it is frankly too much tedious work for a trait.

• Defeat Rendak The Crazed (1 IV)
  Rating: 7
  It is quite difficult to get the quest chain right, even with the help of the wiki.

• Help Shining Blade Kimber defeat Kol Skullsmasher (1 VI)
  Rating: 6
  This is only a great offender because Kol Skullsmasher is a hit point sponge. Last time I did it with four others and the fight lasted nearly an eternity. Tone the hitpoints down and it would be only mildly annoying, not more than most tasks.

• Befriend the ogre/dredge camp in wvw
  Traits: 1 VII, 3 VII
  Rating: 9
  I play a lot of wvw, it is “my endgame”. But even then befriending the ogre or dredge camp is a matter of luck. It depends if the zerg (or a strong enough roaming group) happens to go there and if you are just in EB in that moment and not doing your duty in a borderland. It is a bit like the dreaded ram achievement in the first tournament: it seduces one to do selfish things which are against the spirit of wvw (collaboration). For a new player this requirement must be horrible.

• Complete dungeon story modes
  Traits: 1 VII, 2 II, 2 XI, 3 VIII, 5 I (not 4 XI and 5 XII, that is not that unreasonable for a grandmaster trait)
  Rating: 6
  Some dungeon story modes are easier than others, so the rating gives only the average annoyance. But at least for adept and master traits a complete dungeon is too much, especially because you have to form a group. And not every player is in a guild, or if so, in a “working” guild. Pugging, on the other hand, has its own difficulties. There is a big difference to “multiplayer” tasks in the open world, because there grouping is easy and possible without formal party building.

• Defeat the Dredge Commissar (4 IX)
  Rating: 6
  It is very difficult to get the quest chain right (see Defeat Rendak The Crazed). I tried it several days and it was never possible to get a group to do the quest chain properly.

• Defeat the Overgrown Grub (5 XI)
  Rating: 10
  That is an abomination. Even without being a trait unlock challenge: Disembowel that grub and bury its remains in a location far, far away (preferably in the citadel of a borderland of one of our enemy servers).

Proposal for a quick fix

• Let the old challenges stay as they are (but do away with the Overgrown Grub).

• Design 12 new additional challenges (plus the replacement for the Overgrown Grub).

• Sort all challenges, old and new, in 3 tiers (adept, master, grandmaster). Each tier gets 4 of the new challenges added to the old ones.

• Each challenge completed does not unlock a specific trait but gives an unlock token.

• You can exchange an unlock token for a trait of a corresponding tier. For example a master unlock token allows you free choice from all master traits which you haven’t unlocked yet.

This should be reasonably easy to implement. It has the big advantage that the player can choose which unlock challenges he likes best and which traits he unlocks first, which he does later and which he does not need.

It is not the ideal system, but a huge improvement.

Lazy Fix

Let all as it is now but make the unlocks account bound.

Note

Personally I hope that you design a system which allows us to gets traits earlier and easier. But I understood that you will do so, only later.

I made a long post about this two months ago (not in this thread) that probably nobody ever read. Since there seems to be a little bit of dev activity now, I’ll just post the most important part here:

• Make all Adept Traits (I – VI) instantly available as soon as you reach level 36
• Make all Master Traits (VII – X) easier to obtain
• Leave all Grandmaster Traits (XI-XIII) similar the way they are right now, or maybe even make them a little harder to obtain

And here’s why I think that this would solve a lot of problems:
The most important part of my idea is making the Adept Traits instantly available. Right now, if you are new to Guild Wars or just created a new character, you reach level 30, unlock the trait system – and you gain next to nothing from it, because when reaching level 36, where you can technically choose traits for your major trait slot for the first time, you’re lucky if you’ll have three or four traits that you can use at that time. And if you’re very lucky you’ll even have one that you want to use. The whole trait situation feels bad, especially to new players. Now if you get a big amount of unlocked skills instead, you’ll have something to work with, and you’re encouraged to think about how to build your character later on.

Master Traits should be easier to obtain. Right now there’s too many not-well-thought-out requirements like ‘earn 100% completion in Lornar’s Pass’. Out of all the maps out there, why would anyone want to explore Lornar’s Pass 100% on each and every one of his/her characters? Unlocking methods like these are way too fixed. My suggestion is, you could for example make all the VII-traits mapbound. That means: Upon completing any map (except for the cities) you get to choose which of the five VII-traits you want to unlock. As soon as you complete any other map, you can choose any of the four remaining ones. This way people have more than one fixed way to unlock one fixed skill. They can explore any map they desire, and can unlock one of a variety of traits. You can also transfer this principle on other things like dungeons (Story Mode), Personal Story, etc. . Example:

• VII-traits: mapbound (one trait for each map you complete)
• VIII-traits: dungeonbound (one trait for each Story Mode you complete in a dungeon)
• IX-traits: personal-story-bound (one trait for each major step in Personal Story level 36 onward (joining the Vigil/Order/Priory, assisting the Quaggan/Hylek/…, retaking Claw Island, facing your fear after you tell the Pale Tree about it, cleansing Orr))
• X-traits: world-boss-bound (one trait for defeating one of the ‘lesser’ world bosses each: Shadow Behemoth, The Shatterer, Modniir Ulgoth, Fire Elemental, Megadestroyer, … (‘lesser’ means not Tequatl, Wurm or Temples))
  [These are just some examples, there’s a lot of other possibilities, too, like jumping-puzzle-bound and so on.]

Many people like the ‘easy to learn, hard to master’-principle in games. I’d transfer this to the traits in a form of ‘easy to get into, hard to complete’. You have all the Adept Traits, you unlock a big amount of Master Traits along the way or get the ones you’re looking for with not too much work, thus you’ll have about 80% of all traits easily accessible and get a real feeling for the progress you make. With all these traits you can really personalize and specialize your build, you can create a solid and well-working build on your character. And to bring it to perfection – you’ll aim to unlock the Grandmaster Traits with your high-level-character. Unlike Master Traits, it’s totally okay for Grandmaster Traits to be hard to earn and specific, so you have to meet certain requirements to unlock a certain trait (not a choice of five like i suggested for Master Traits), so basically they can stay the way they are now. You may even make them harder to earn – conquer/defend a certain temple (we already have that), defeat Tequatl/Wurm, finish a certain explo mode path in a certain dungeon, … . You’ll have to work towards these, and even if earning them will depend a lot on other player’s effort, I’m sure earning them will still feel very rewarding.

The option to buy skills should stay, and should not be made any cheaper. I think of this as a ‘quality of life’-option. It is for experienced players that have gold and Scrolls of Knowledge left and are too lazy to put the required amount of effort into their alts. The buying option doesn’t appeal to new players anyway – usually they don’t have much gold left and are still saving their skill points for their elite slot skills. They really shouldn’t be forced to waste so much gold and so many skill points on buying traits.

Additionally I must say that I’m not a fan of the Trait System starting at level 30, and getting one Trait Point every 6 levels instead of 5 feels very… odd. I really fail to grasp how these changes are supposed to make things easier for new players. I think it’d be just fine if you get your first point at level 15, and afterwards you get 1 point every 5 levels. Unlocking the tiers at level 11 / 40 / 60 also felt way better than unlocking them at 30 / 60 / 80. I really don’t see what the advantage of all these changes are, but well, these are minor issues compared to the ones I mentioned above (I also prefered the 70 point system over the 14 point system, and I don’t think that it was in any way hard to get into for new players, but again, minor issue).

Thanks for reading.

I don’t know about anyone else, but when I start playing a new MMO, the worst thing is when you cannot experiment when everything is locked away until later, when you cannot play the class / profession you want to TRY OUT… lower the Trait unlock level back to 15 or something, make them easire to unlock or even give them away for leveling and let the Master / GM ones huntable .

Do away with the stupid lvl 50 area for a lvl 30 trait quests and for everyones sake, make them ACCOUNT WIDE UNLOCKS :-) Please

Chiming in with chant on account wide trait unlocks.

As Shinjin said, if this is meant to “ease new players blah blah” then we should not be forced to do this more than ONCE.

Oh yes, and I have to add the fact that the new trait system is what scares new players away from the game way faster than tutorials and downed states will. They look at the available traits and go: “I don’t have any idea where I need to go for these traits.”

short sighted system for “new players”

however this is something that can be said for all the “new (china) changes”, they devised by their focus test groups ( ehem, down state ).

It is only something that is for the first character you will ever play, but these are the basics of the game.

Having some later to unlock is fine, since it is rewarding and uncovering them can be great if well implemented (notice the “if”)
Gating them so much behind a railroad level system is boring and just gives you the little extra “ting” the first time you play, but later you are just saying that it is too late. ill wait till 80…

JonPeters.5630:

felessan.9587:

JonPeters.5630:

Lazuli.2098:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks. I’ll pass this on.

So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.

From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.

I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.

To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.

Thank you, that is nice to hear.

Please be more honest and straight-forward like this in the future.

To be fair, we love being this honest and straight forward normally though it just ends up sounding like a bunch of talk and not a lot of walk and that is because it takes time to be this active on the boards. After today I’ll be a bit less “forum active” again but that means I am working on making the game better.

This is not a fix, you can easily revert the system back. Still the traits are too much to be acquired one by one. You call your game as a casual game, no gear treadmill, no other bad sides of games but you want to give our precious time to get useless traits and slow down the alt progress? This is a contradiction.
Also, the last sentence, when you have not seen here you haven’t done anything good, you didn’t do anything to fix the system but changing mobs to hunt or explore places, this is not a fix mate.
The system made me quit the game, me and so many people here say this system gotta be changed or we won’t level any alt again. Don’t come us with that kind of gimmicky solutions, at least try to make a different system WHICH DOES NOT FOCUS ON THE WALLET OF THE PLAYER.

JonPeters.5630:

Hey all,

Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.

TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

While I appreciate that (finally) this thread is getting attention, this approach seems incredibly disheartening. The trait system was fine, and then horrible, and now the temporary solution being suggested is to fix the “most” offensive parts?

The system doesn’t work. It is boring, doesn’t allow for build experimentation, makes a core part of levelling and character building extremely hard to access if not impossible until well past level 80, and harms experienced players for the sake of (maybe) not scaring off a couple of people who were more confused by the old system (have a trait point every level, buy something you want every five) than the new (have one or two trait points at random levels that might unlock something you might want if you’re really lucky).

Moving some of the unlocks isn’t a fix, even a temporary one. Possible temporary fixes:

1) Revert the system completely, until an actually engaging and rewarding system is thought up (many have been suggested, usually involving skills or grandmaster traits).

2) Make the unlocks account-bound. This single change would take away a lot of the hatred for this system, and maybe even make people enjoy it, knowing they only have to do it once.

3) Unlock all adept and master traits.

4) Make it free to buy the trait unlocks at a vendor. If people want to go hunt for them, then they can.

It has been five months. This system is hated, and isn’t just putting off players, but is preventing people from recommending the game to others.

Hello Mr.Peters!

First off,thank you for being so interactive with the player base.

Secondly; I started a thread on the GW2 Subreddit this morning moments after your request for feedback. It now has over 150 replies.

Give it a read

Some serious tone deafness with developer direction on this whole topic. I’d have no issue with NEWLY INTRODUCED Traits being tied to certain achievements, etc.

BUT the core TRAITS should have remained as they were because player progression was never a problem…in fact it was one of the nice things about leveling up GW2.

Where is this stupid idea of new players being overwhelmed coming from? Stop dumbing down the game by stingily doling out the very things that make it worth playing for players who like to be engaged.

That gamers “new to GW2” were being “overwhelmed” and quitting sounds like a a faulty conclusion based on shaky metrics.

In the end, I can only speak for myself as a gamer for over two decades: the trait changes broke GW2 for me; I don’t find the changes enticing or compelling…they are off putting and restrictive.

ANet took a rewarding and pleasant leveling system and stripped it down to a bareboned joyless ride.

First of all, thanks for requesting feedback and laying out the rationale. It’s awesome and takes energy, so just know that it is highly appreciated. I hope our cupcakes last week helps convey that :)

JonPeters.5630:

Trait Tier level increase. …most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost.

This is the gist of it all, isn’t it :) I agree with your premise but disagree with your conclusion. Dissociating traits from gameplay by removing them from the newbie consciousness is a big delay of grasping a core mechanic, not to mention gratification. As is bundling them in chunks of five, imo — once you understand the system, allocating the stray point or two is not complicated (especially now that we can retrait on the fly — a huge improvement btw).

The issue to me is that traits are not the only area in which newbies are confused. You’ve treated a symptom but not the disease: There need to be better in-game, immersive newbie tutorials in general.

JonPeters.5630:

Unlocking traits. We talked about this a bunch in the horizontal progression CDI and it came to our attention that many players were not learning about traits, how they worked, or understanding the options.

I loved unlocking elite skills in GW1 and I love the idea of unlocking traits in GW2. Examples of how my above conclusion (better in-game tutorials that are immserisve) might play out with regards to traits:

Let’s say you unlock traits starting at level 5, and then you unlock tiers which subdivides into unlocking numbers (across all trait lines at once — so an ele would unlock Adept and after would unlock the Trait 1s of Fire, Water etc all at once). At level 5 you get a notification button that opens the traits screen to show you the UI and how to get there from pressing “h”/using the top UI. Once on the trait page, it points out the tier you’ve unlocked (give them the adept tier as a freebie; they’ll still have to unlock individual trait numbers) and tells you that a tool tip on mouseover of locked skills will guide you in unlocking each Trait number/tier.

In this newbie case, the mouseover of all six adept traits initially tells you to visit your profession trainer in a certain racial city and yes I know you took them out. I loved having unique NPCs as trainers and unique questlines for professions in GW Prophecies’ pre-searing. They were (say it with me) immersive. Substitute “trait unlocker npc” there if you must. A “commander book npc” could work when unlocking Grandmaster. ANYWAYS. So you go to this NPC. They tell you “congrats, you are becoming more adept(/gaining such mastery/becoming a true grandmaster). I can help you unlock your full potential.” And then, boom, the newbie is notified that there are updated tool tips on their trait UI screen for each trait number. The trait NPC is then like “I have six lessons for you to be a true Adept. Which sounds most appealing?” And you choose one and he gives more information. You can go back and have him tell you about each one/repeat whatever info he gives. If it’s location-based, he shows you where the task you have to do is on the map (the way a scout or quest mail would), while a banner across the map screen tells you what your task is there. To unlock the “I” Traits, perhaps you have to make so many kills/hits/swaps/whatevever — make it a class specific goal — using your F1/2/3/4 skill(s). For “II”, maybe you have to do so many dodges or so many heals or equip and use so many utility skills — you get the idea. This is when you should really be teaching them their class and core game concepts. I also like the idea of USE unlocking things. If the skill is scepter related, maybe they need to use the scepter so many times (this is why I liked learning weapon skills with use: PLEASE put this back), or make fire traits unlock by using fire. This NPC can show you what you need to do/where you need to go to unlock the next tier, too, though of course your mouseover on the trait screen will do the written equivalent.

Part 2

Make it so that the unlocks for the Trait numbers help build up to the goal for the next tier unlock: do so many hearts or successfully complete dynamic events or complete so many skill point challenges or kill a boss relevant to the trait like you stole it off of ala GW1. For the Master tier unlock, make players complete a lowish level map or two. Direct them to that heart in Queensdale that teaches blocking and holding down numbers and such — and refine that. This heart is a treasure. I’m still devastated that this is the only heart that really is all about learning core game mechanics. I can not emphasize enough how lacking an immersive learning tutorial is in the game. This heart does its best to remedy that for blocks and wind-up skills. tbh, I would rather see more hearts like this teaching core mechanics in the newbie zones than a thousand trait mechanic changes.

Keep giving a skill point per level as under the old system. By not waiting to throw points into a minor trait, you can draw attention to and teach the value of a trait line’s passive bonuses. Once they reach 5 points (lvl 10), have them pop open the trait screen again (or visit the chosen trait NPC) with a notification button that won’t go away and show them the difference between minor and major traits. Show them the multiple ways of doing things (pressing the + or – buttons to dole out points or clicking on the trait itself to do so in larger lump sums). At 10 points, remind them again to distribute for their first major trait (potentially – they could double minor if they really wanted) and then leave them be until Grandmaster when this notification system should explain the special individual trait line requirements of the XIII traits.

If you went down a path that resembled this example, you’ve just taught a lot about a wide variety of game mechanics in a way that furthers fleshes out the story and world (integrating NPCs and giving them relationships and stories to eachother, the player, the land and the threat of the dragons) AND staggered out the learning experience so you don’t overwhelm them but conversely they can not ignore it. You’ll also have reduced the tedium of having to jump through a unique hoop for every single trait.

I just love the idea of making it more of a story than “do this task”, “do this task”, “do this task” which bores the daylights out of me. I’m still baffled why hearts in the newbie zones don’t teach and force you to use dodge, F1 skills, aoe fields etc. They, or some sort of instanced practice arena like them, seem like the perfect delivery and reward system for this information, especially if that map’s completion is required for unlocking a higher trait tier. It would also make for good training grounds for older players trying out new weapons/traits/keybindings etc. If you staggered the mechanic hearts around the various newbie zones you would also have a good segue way into explaining portal travel, the Lion’s-Arch-is-a-hub concept, and waypoint fees.

OK, so, as others have stated over and over, the first change that HAS to come is that if you’ve unlocked the traits, then they should be unlocked account wide. I don’t make alts to travel throughout all of tyria again unless I have a specific need to, like get more items for legendaries (which I have no interest in obtaining).

Now, for specifics -

All traits that require dungeons should be changed. Getting PUGs together for those before was a nightmare and that was if you just happened to not have a desired build. Now low level players will DEFINITELY not have a “proper” build and just won’t be able to get them without paying for them.

All tooltips need to be clear about what you have to do to get the trait. Period.

Those are the only “quick” updates i think can be made in a respectable time frame while more meaningful changes are implemented. Also overall cost of buying the traits needs to be lowered. The cost is just too high right now for new players and many veterans that don’t get much time to play.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Lheimroo.2947:

Ya, the most concise single short-term suggestion is to make the unlocks account bound.

Keeps the pacing for newbies and lets vets play with build variety a bit more.

That’s all well and good, but they also need to look at level of difficulty and fix what is obviously broken, like, now. And the cost. There is no way it should have gone from a few gold to 42g and 300SPs for these traits. Just… no. That kind of cost can only help ANet with gem sales, in which case spouting any semblence of trying to help new or vet players with progression is just a load of hooey.

To be fair, I just said it was the one most effective change they could make. Removing the skill point cost would be the second best thing they could do.

They are looking for quick and easy patch-me-ups to do in the interim before a larger change. So that’s what I offered.

JonPeters.5630:

Lazuli.2098:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks. I’ll pass this on.

So, this is how it works? Cherry pick ONE PERSON’s “list of things I don’t like”, while ignoring 40 pages of really good feedback and ideas? OK. I’m done with this thread.

From this response from JonPeters and his initial post it is obvious that Anet is not going to fix their new leveling process or trait system except the individual tasks themselves.

I’m discouraged since I used to like leveling new alts but can live with just playing my level 80s instead.

To be clear we are looking at the system as a whole but recognize that changing that will take longer than is satisfying and are looking for ways to improve the current system until a time at which we can make a better overall system from the ground up. Specific suggestions on what traits are poorly placed are helpful for #1, specific suggestions on #2 are also welcome but are going to be read but not responded too right now.

It’s all horrible from a design standpoint. We get that you want us to experience game content. But some of us want to experience the fun of the game that is class building. Speaking from the position of playing at launch i had far more fun when i had a multitude of build paths instantly available to me upon buying a trait book than i have ever had playing this new system.

The new system needs to go in part. Give players back the trait books and upon expanding the world add new traits to be unlocked via doing content or buying it.

Some classes (most notably ele, mesmer, thief and engi) are nearly unplayable until you’ve gotten at least a couple of trait points. They certainly aren’t fun early on. I’d wager you risk losing more people because of that than people being overwhelmed.

And honestly, I never once heard anyone with questions or complaints about traits under the old system. I’ve had a number of friends and guild members ask me questions about the new system, however, and half the time I can’t answer them without referring to the wiki (and I’m a veteran player!).

In my opinion, a much more sensible trait progression system would start dispensing trait points at a rate of 1 every 5 levels, beginning at level 15. Adept traits would unlock at level 20, Master at level 40, and GrandMaster at level 60.

I believe it’s important that GrandMaster traits in particular be unlocked BEFORE level 80. They’re potent, and some almost completely change how a class plays. I don’t think it’s fair that a fresh level 80 player has no opportunity to experiment with some of these before hitting cap, and the expectation from other level 80 players is that they know what they’re doing.

In at attempt to make systems more accessible, you’ve actually done quite the opposite in the case of traits. Traits aren’t scary or confusing. Or at least they weren’t…

JonPeters.5630:

Hey all,

I see a lot of people talking but with a thread this long the details are often muddied by a large number of similar but differing opinions. I want to address some of the more straightforward stuff.

Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm bold new players bold that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for *bold*new players bold to develop into longtime players. Without more longtime players it becomes hard for you and your current guilds to meet and find people to replace those who inevitably will be pulled away by real life from time to time.

Dear Jon, I understand the need to teach new players the mechanic of the game but that mechanic doesn’t need to be taught 64 times (to quote the amount of maximum character slot allowed per account).

I as a veteran player do not need to be taught how to use the down skills. I as a veteran player do not need to be taught how to use each trait 64 times to a total of 4160 times.

If this is a money sink or time time please say so, but please do not use a pretext or excuse of teaching new player to force any player to repeatedly hunt for all the traits again and again and again.

And to quote Colin, I and the majority of the players here do not want to “swing a sword again, and again” to get to the fun stuff. I do not want to kill that boss over and over and over and over again to get to the fun stuffs.

Similarly I and most players do not need to have to level up my newly made characters to level 5 to get to the down state. Sure a newbie the first time but the 5th? the 6th character? REALLY?

I and ALL veterans players and ALL newbies (after the first time) do not need to be introduced to a fluff mechanic restriction to have a FAKE impression of progression.

So Jon, please make it account unlocked already. If an account ready unlocked the downstate, make it unlocked.

If an account has a mesmers already unlocked trait X, please have that account unlocked trait X for all future mesmers.

Otherwise you could just simply come out and say it outright “Hey people it’s time sink and a money sink, DEAL WITH IT” but please don’t use the pretext of “teaching new players” to force these mechanic down our throat.

Some more ideas for the “quickfix” while they rework the whole thing (hopefully):

Adept:
- visiting certain POIs and Vistas (1-35 areas only)
- maybe 5 city mapcompletion (1 for each trait line)

Master
- doing World Bosses (simpler ones)
- finishing minidungeons
- completing Jumping Puzzles

Grandmaster
- doing World Bosses (more difficult ones)
- finishing dungeon story modes
- reaching 100 skillpoints / 150 vistas / 150 heart quests / 250 waypoints / 300 POIs
(conveniently there is one category for each trait line)

Definitely avoid full map completions, story progression and generaly abandoned champions.

Lheimroo.2947:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Lheimroo.2947:

Ya, the most concise single short-term suggestion is to make the unlocks account bound.

Keeps the pacing for newbies and lets vets play with build variety a bit more.

That’s all well and good, but they also need to look at level of difficulty and fix what is obviously broken, like, now. And the cost. There is no way it should have gone from a few gold to 42g and 300SPs for these traits. Just… no. That kind of cost can only help ANet with gem sales, in which case spouting any semblence of trying to help new or vet players with progression is just a load of hooey.

To be fair, I just said it was the one most effective change they could make. Removing the skill point cost would be the second best thing they could do.

They are looking for quick and easy patch-me-ups to do in the interim before a larger change. So that’s what I offered.

I wasn’t trying to put down your comment at all. I was just interjecting that, I believe, the things I added, are also core, fundamental changes that have to be part of any attempt at putting a bandaid on this mortal wound called “the new trait system”.

Yeah, given the posts from JP recently, it seems they’re aware it’s flawed and are thinking on how to replace it while also making it more comfortable for the shorter term.

Reverting it (mostly) and keeping the new Traits requiring unlocks is probably one of the better options, I think.

I will address my concerns with each point as i think a good means to solving it in two separate posts (because I apparently ramble)

JonPeters.5630:

Trait Tier level increase. We made this change because despite what the more hardcore players like myself want, most players need to be introduced to systems more slowly so that they don’t get lost. Every time we overwhelm new players that is an opportunity for them to stop playing the game. Every time that happens it becomes harder and harder for new players to develop into longtime players. Without more longtime players it becomes hard for you and your current guilds to meet and find people to replace those who inevitably will be pulled away by real life from time to time.

How does moving the acquisition of trait points from level 10 to level 30 help people not get lost? How does it keep them from getting overwhelmed? Previously they were introduced to traits along side utility skills, and i can kinda see why this would be confusing, but now they are introduced to traits alongside elite skills which while fundamentally similar to utilities are still a new level of skills that the player needs to learn how they work, why they have such longer cooldowns, and why they are SO much more powerful than regular utility skills.

My solution to this problem would be to move trait point acquisition to level 20 (much like others have already suggested) and change the Trait points to unlock ever 5 levels (this does mean that your last level will grant 2 trait points but by that time you should fully understand it and it would make more sense why 80 gives you 2 since you will also unlock grandmaster at that point). What this does is introduces a new system 10 whole levels before introducing the final tier of skills (elites) and would easily help new players understand making builds more diverse right after giving them the final utility slot