Guild Wars 2

lordkrall.7241:

Skady.5916:

I dont even know… Maybe to allow people to have fun playing the game the way they want to… Guild raffles are unsupported activities too but they help building the community, as well as many other “unsupported” things in this game. If something is unsupported that doesn’t necessarily mean you have to ruin it.

What if people are having fun by hacking? Should they start allowing that as well then?
Or maybe they are having fun by stalking or abusing people? Should that also be allowed then?

No one is talking about ruining anything, but you seems to think that they should actively take UNSUPPORTED things into account when they are making changes to the game, which is silly.

Hacking is against the ToS while dungeon selling and any other service selling isnt.

People can sell all kinds of services as long as they find buyers. Dungeon selling just happen to cover larger audience. You can sell your skillpoints, karma, even powerleveling services. In GW1 people used to sell tours because mapping was painful for new characters. GW2 is a very casual game that’s why most of it is not needed. What I am saying is that gold transfer change ruins any kind of service selling and guild coordinated activities and 500g per week is in fact nothing.

If the goal was to limit potential income “per week” why not hurt TP barons and flippers? Trust me those guys have much more influence on game economy than any others. You can even safely state that they “hurt” game economy but no actions has been taken to limit their activities (how about limiting amount of TP transactions to 100 per week). TP flippers can literally acquire any in game items including legendaries without leaving Lions Arch and actually playing the game – and that is perfectly fine. However ANet decided to punish those who actually go out and play their game. Seems very odd to me.

So you seriously suggest that they should base their actions against gold sellers around unsupported things people do in the game?

Something being allowed is not the same as something being supported.

It is fully allowed (and possible) to trade via mail, but if you get scammed ArenaNet will not help you, seeing as you are using an unsupported feature.

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Dungeon selling is not unsupported.

It is.
They tolerate it, but they do in no way or form actively support it.

You are mistaken.

They spent money to build a tool and defined dungeon selling as being one of that tool’s uses. Spending dev resources to allow something is active support.

lordkrall.7241:

So you seriously suggest that they should base their actions against gold sellers around unsupported things people do in the game?

Something being allowed is not the same as something being supported.

It is fully allowed (and possible) to trade via mail, but if you get scammed ArenaNet will not help you, seeing as you are using an unsupported feature.

This change does not really hurts gold sellers and on top of that ANet has another tools to identify and deal with RMT. But it does really hurt different groups of players involved in all kinds of activities in this game (which includes but not limited to WvW guilds, RP guilds, service selling, transferring funds between alt accounts, playing together with F&F etc)

I don’t see the point to continue this convo since you just keep twisting my words over and over again.

Have a nice day.

Ashen.2907:

You are mistaken.

They spent money to build a tool and defined dungeon selling as being one of that tool’s uses. Spending dev resources to allow something is active support.

Eh not really. If someone doesn’t give you the gold for the path, you cant contact support to receive compensation. If a troll joins your group and kicks you all, you cant get compensated either. Now of course you can report them, but who knows if anything will ever happen to them. sure it allowed you to sell the paths, but any support beyond that, does not exist. At least i think thats what lordkrall means.

^ Indeed.

Skady.5916:

This change does not really hurts gold sellers and on top of that ANet has another tools to identify and deal with RMT. But it does really hurt different groups of players involved in all kinds of activities in this game (which includes but not limited to WvW guilds, RP guilds, service selling, transferring funds between alt accounts, playing together with F&F etc)

I don’t see the point to continue this convo since you just keep twisting my words over and over again.

Have a nice day.

It does. It makes it much more of a fuss to get the gold you have bought, which might make people not bothering with it, seeing as the main reason (I assume) people do it in the first place is to get a large amount of gold at once.

The fact still remains that none of the effected activities are supported by ArenaNet and thus they shouldn’t take them into consideration when making changes. Simple as that.

Ashen.2907:

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Dungeon selling is not unsupported.

It is.
They tolerate it, but they do in no way or form actively support it.

You are mistaken.

They spent money to build a tool and defined dungeon selling as being one of that tool’s uses. Spending dev resources to allow something is active support.

Show me where ANet said that an approved purpose for the LFG tool is selling paths?

Dante.1763:

Ashen.2907:

You are mistaken.

They spent money to build a tool and defined dungeon selling as being one of that tool’s uses. Spending dev resources to allow something is active support.

Eh not really. If someone doesn’t give you the gold for the path, you cant contact support to receive compensation. If a troll joins your group and kicks you all, you cant get compensated either. Now of course you can report them, but who knows if anything will ever happen to them. sure it allowed you to sell the paths, but any support beyond that, does not exist. At least i think thats what lordkrall means.

Those arent the only forms of support. Spending money to develop the tool is support for the tool’s uses. Then going to the forums and stating that a given use of the tool is permitted (while demonstrating that not all uses are by specifying some as disallowed) is supporting the given use.

If I build a shovel and hand it to someone on my property, and then announce to as many people as I can reach that it is allowed to use the shovel to dig holes on that property, and then post signs to that effect, I have supported digging holes on my property with that shovel.

Behellagh.1468:

Ashen.2907:

lordkrall.7241:

Ashen.2907:

Dungeon selling is not unsupported.

It is.
They tolerate it, but they do in no way or form actively support it.

You are mistaken.

They spent money to build a tool and defined dungeon selling as being one of that tool’s uses. Spending dev resources to allow something is active support.

Show me where ANet said that an approved purpose for the LFG tool is selling paths?

Both the sticky and pre-sticky posts.

As “fun” as it is debating the legitimacy of dungeon path selling, we are derailing from the issue of 500 gold a week being enough for the vast majority of players or not.

Behellagh.1468:

As “fun” as it is debating the legitimacy of dungeon path selling, we are derailing from the issue of 500 gold a week being enough for the vast majority of players or not.

There is no such debate as the matter has been defined by the owners of this private property.

That said, the negative impact on a relatively small minority of the playerbase seems more than offset, in my opinion, by the positive impact of targeting RMT.

Skady.5916:

lordkrall.7241:

Skady.5916:

I dont even know… Maybe to allow people to have fun playing the game the way they want to… Guild raffles are unsupported activities too but they help building the community, as well as many other “unsupported” things in this game. If something is unsupported that doesn’t necessarily mean you have to ruin it.

What if people are having fun by hacking? Should they start allowing that as well then?
Or maybe they are having fun by stalking or abusing people? Should that also be allowed then?

No one is talking about ruining anything, but you seems to think that they should actively take UNSUPPORTED things into account when they are making changes to the game, which is silly.

Hacking is against the ToS while dungeon selling and any other service selling isnt.

People can sell all kinds of services as long as they find buyers. Dungeon selling just happen to cover larger audience. You can sell your skillpoints, karma, even powerleveling services. In GW1 people used to sell tours because mapping was painful for new characters. GW2 is a very casual game that’s why most of it is not needed. What I am saying is that gold transfer change ruins any kind of service selling and guild coordinated activities and 500g per week is in fact nothing.

If the goal was to limit potential income “per week” why not hurt TP barons and flippers? Trust me those guys have much more influence on game economy than any others. You can even safely state that they “hurt” game economy but no actions has been taken to limit their activities (how about limiting amount of TP transactions to 100 per week). TP flippers can literally acquire any in game items including legendaries without leaving Lions Arch and actually playing the game – and that is perfectly fine. However ANet decided to punish those who actually go out and play their game. Seems very odd to me.

Good post. The amount of players who sell on a daily basis – and players who buy, are evidence of how dungeon selling has become a core part of the game. GW1 was just the same, selling books, story tours, running to locations, powerleveling, something for everyone.

Then, perhaps Dungeon Sellers could ask for an item(s) equal to the amount of Gold they would charge. Just as in GW1 where certain items became currency. No limit there. =)

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Then, perhaps Dungeon Sellers could ask for an item(s) equal to the amount of Gold they would charge. Just as in GW1 where certain items became currency. No limit there. =)

And loose 15% when selling? Bad idea. Stop defending Anets decisions even if they only inconvenience 1% of the players.

Malediktus.3740:

And loose 15% when selling? Bad idea. Stop defending Anets decisions even if they only inconvenience 1% of the players.

So the 1% should dictate and control how the game is developed? Really?

Not a bad idea. The dungeon sellers can ask for whatever item they like…it can be worth more than the gold they ask now. For pete’s sake, there isn’t any hard-and-fast rule about what a dungeon seller wants for a run.

Regardless, I am not ‘defending’ anyone. Just trying to offer a suggestion. A suggestion, in fact, that was used in GW1 often.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Then, perhaps Dungeon Sellers could ask for an item(s) equal to the amount of Gold they would charge. Just as in GW1 where certain items became currency. No limit there. =)

Solid point.

The restrictions exist for a reason. There is a work around for those (relatively few) legitimate players who are negatively impacted. If the TP tax is a problem, pass the cost onto your customers. Businesses have been doing so for as long as there have been taxes. No reason why dungeon sellers and their customers in a computer game should be an exception

Malediktus.3740:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Then, perhaps Dungeon Sellers could ask for an item(s) equal to the amount of Gold they would charge. Just as in GW1 where certain items became currency. No limit there. =)

And loose 15% when selling? Bad idea. Stop defending Anets decisions even if they only inconvenience 1% of the players.

Ask anyone who is blind or confined to a wheelchair how well the world is designed to accommodate them. Or just watch one of the many “little people in a big people world” TV shows.

When dealing with hundreds of thousands, millions or even billions of individuals, it’s just not possible to anticipate every person’s needs or desires and design around them. We have to settle for doing the best we can for the most people we can, and if that leaves less than 1% slightly inconvenienced, that’s really the best we can hope for.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Then, perhaps Dungeon Sellers could ask for an item(s) equal to the amount of Gold they would charge. Just as in GW1 where certain items became currency. No limit there. =)

That seemed like a good idea and we actually tried to operate in globs of ectoplasm the week they capped mail gold limit. But unfortunately that didn’t work for a few reasons:
1. It was too confusing for new buyers
2. Buyers have to go to TP and buy ecto first before they can buy dungeons off of us
So this scheme adds too much hassle for buyers thats why they stop buying.

The reason why ecto as a currency worked in GW1 was that everyone was literally forced to use something as a currency since your wallet had ridiculously low gold limit by design. In GW2 ANet got rid of ridiculously low wallet gold limit that’s why I dont see anyone seriously switching to ecto or something else any time soon.

Skady.5916:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Then, perhaps Dungeon Sellers could ask for an item(s) equal to the amount of Gold they would charge. Just as in GW1 where certain items became currency. No limit there. =)

That seemed like a good idea and we actually tried to operate in globs of ectoplasm the week they capped mail gold limit. But unfortunately that didn’t work for a few reasons:
1. It was too confusing for new buyers
2. Buyers have to go to TP and buy ecto first before they can buy dungeons off of us
So this scheme adds too much hassle for buyers thats why they stop buying.

The reason why ecto as a currency worked in GW1 was that everyone was literally forced to use something as a currency since your wallet had ridiculously low gold limit by design. In GW2 ANet got rid of ridiculously low wallet gold limit that’s why I dont see anyone seriously switching to ecto or something else any time soon.

Sorry. No ones changing the gold restrictions so you can have less complications clogging up lfg with bs dungeon path selling.

Drakonath.7096:

Sorry. No ones changing the gold restrictions so you can have less complications clogging up lfg with bs dungeon path selling.

I was going to ignore this post but in fact its better if I comment on it.

I can see why you mad that people making some gold the way that is inaccessible for you and I can also see why you are happy and excited cause they face some issues with gold mail limit.

Today you are all happy and excited but tomorrow this sword can hit you with another edge.

You will want to buy some fractal to bump your level or get some easy daily rewards – and we won’t sell you cause we are all gold capped. Your best friend will ask you to lend him some gold to finish his legendary and you won’t be able to help him. Your girlfriend will ask you to help her with server transfer and you won’t be able to do that and play with her in WvW. You decide to organize big WvW guild and you won’t be able to accept any gold donations to upgrade siege. You wanna lead large PvX guild – and you won’t be able to organize any guild raffles. List may continue

Have a nice time playing solo in a MMORPG

Drakonath.7096:

clogging up lfg with bs dungeon path selling.

Behellagh.1468:

Show me where ANet said that an approved purpose for the LFG tool is selling paths?

Gaile’s offical LFG policy

Gaile Gray.6029:

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

“Businesses have been doing so for as long as there have been taxes. No reason why dungeon sellers and their customers in a computer game should be an exception”

Yeah, there is no comparison with real life businesses to dungeon sellers.
As someone else stated, the trading of items was a norm in GW1 due to the forced wallet size.

Here’s another point; Would Anet even want us FORCING players to pay by ecto? Artificial prices, something I’m sure they want to avoid given the reliance on an RNG system. On the other hand, maybe it’ll add real flow to the trading post.

Skady.5916:

Drakonath.7096:

Sorry. No ones changing the gold restrictions so you can have less complications clogging up lfg with bs dungeon path selling.

I was going to ignore this post but in fact its better if I comment on it.

I can see why you mad that people making some gold the way that is inaccessible for you and I can also see why you are happy and excited cause they face some issues with gold mail limit.

Today you are all happy and excited but tomorrow this sword can hit you with another edge.

You will want to buy some fractal to bump your level or get some easy daily rewards – and we won’t sell you cause we are all gold capped. Your best friend will ask you to lend him some gold to finish his legendary and you won’t be able to help him. Your girlfriend will ask you to help her with server transfer and you won’t be able to do that and play with her in WvW. You decide to organize big WvW guild and you won’t be able to accept any gold donations to upgrade siege. You wanna lead large PvX guild – and you won’t be able to organize any guild raffles. List may continue

Have a nice time playing solo in a MMORPG

I was going to ignore this post but it’s better if I comment on it.

I can see why putting a cap on gold per week to combat illegal gold sellers is annoying for you because its probably the only way you can get it and I can also see why you refuse to understand why it’s needed to regulate the games economy.

If I couldn’t complete a fractal on my own I would join a fractal guild and get better at it. If my best friend needs help with a legendary I can buy the materials he needs and send it to him. If my girlfriend asks for a server transfer I will give her $20 lol? Or she can buy it herself because she has a job like most people do. If I am organizing a large Guild WvW siege I can plan in advance and get other players to actual do some work as well since that’s what a guild is about, working together for a common goal and helping each other. If you’re in a guild where all responsibility is solely on the guild leader I feel bad for you. If I want to organize raffles I can easily organize raffles by asking people to deposit into the guild bank instead of mailing it to me. Wow that was tough.

“Today you are all happy and excited but tomorrow this sword can hit you with another edge”

If you can only think of one way to do something maybe you should attend a problem solving or critical thinking class instead of playing video games.

Animism.9803:

“Businesses have been doing so for as long as there have been taxes. No reason why dungeon sellers and their customers in a computer game should be an exception”

Yeah, there is no comparison with real life businesses to dungeon sellers.
As someone else stated, the trading of items was a norm in GW1 due to the forced wallet size.

Here’s another point; Would Anet even want us FORCING players to pay by ecto? Artificial prices, something I’m sure they want to avoid given the reliance on an RNG system. On the other hand, maybe it’ll add real flow to the trading post.

And once again (since you seem to completely disregard it) dungeons selling is not supported, therefore they couldn’t care less about how it is effected by their attempts to combat gold selling.

lordkrall.7241:

Animism.9803:

“Businesses have been doing so for as long as there have been taxes. No reason why dungeon sellers and their customers in a computer game should be an exception”

Yeah, there is no comparison with real life businesses to dungeon sellers.
As someone else stated, the trading of items was a norm in GW1 due to the forced wallet size.

Here’s another point; Would Anet even want us FORCING players to pay by ecto? Artificial prices, something I’m sure they want to avoid given the reliance on an RNG system. On the other hand, maybe it’ll add real flow to the trading post.

And once again (since you seem to completely disregard it) dungeons selling is not supported, therefore they couldn’t care less about how it is effected by their attempts to combat gold selling.

And this.

Lordkrall, it kind of is a core element of the game, and in ways has been supported. Plus the post above does raise an eyebrow as to why they woulndn’t…

Brown.8560:

Gaile’s offical LFG policy

Gaile Gray.6029:

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

And no, it is not a core element of the game. Which is made rather clear by the statement made that around 1% of the legit playerbase would be effected by the change. If it was a core element of the game it is rather likely that that number would have been bigger.

No, it have not been supported. It is POSSIBLE to do it, but something being possible doesn’t mean it is supported.

It is possible do do plenty of things everywhere, that doesn’t mean it is supported to do such things however.

Skady.5916:

If the goal was to limit potential income “per week” why not hurt TP barons and flippers? Trust me those guys have much more influence on game economy than any others. You can even safely state that they “hurt” game economy but no actions has been taken to limit their activities (how about limiting amount of TP transactions to 100 per week). TP flippers can literally acquire any in game items including legendaries without leaving Lions Arch and actually playing the game – and that is perfectly fine. However ANet decided to punish those who actually go out and play their game. Seems very odd to me.

Good point. Here is the answer:

No, the goal was not to limit potential income per week. They even spelled out the goal of the change in their announcement (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Gold-Transfer-Changes/first):

- effort to combat account theft
- fraud
- RMT

Stop strawmaning and trying to create a connection between ingame gold barons and RMT. While both have their drawbacks, only one of both is against ToS.

Animism.9803:

Lordkrall, it kind of is a core element of the game, and in ways has been supported. Plus the post above does raise an eyebrow as to why they woulndn’t…

Brown.8560:

Gaile’s offical LFG policy

Gaile Gray.6029:

Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

Something being tolerated does not = core element of the game.

Thi is not GW1. Anet have made strong efforts in getting this point accross and are having a much tighter grip on this economy than they ever did in GW1. Dungeon selling is currently no violation against ToS, but I guaranteed you anet is not overjoyed about it going on.

ANet won’t change their policy unless someone can find a method that hurts RMT selling/buying as much as the current gold-transfer cap. You don’t have to agree with ANet. However, if you want them to implement a new mechanic, you will need to accept that they believe 500g/week has slowed down RMT and has only a minor impact on the community.

Thus, it’s completely moot if dungeon-path selling and guild lotteries are supported or not. ANet has decided that hurting RMT is more important.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

ANet won’t change their policy unless someone can find a method that hurts RMT selling/buying as much as the current gold-transfer cap. You don’t have to agree with ANet. However, if you want them to implement a new mechanic, you will need to accept that they believe 500g/week has slowed down RMT and has only a minor impact on the community.

Thus, it’s completely moot if dungeon-path selling and guild lotteries are supported or not. ANet has decided that hurting RMT is more important.

This.

lordkrall.7241:

And no, it is not a core element of the game. Which is made rather clear by the statement made that around 1% of the legit playerbase would be effected by the change. If it was a core element of the game it is rather likely that that number would have been bigger.

No, it have not been supported. It is POSSIBLE to do it, but something being possible doesn’t mean it is supported.

It is possible do do plenty of things everywhere, that doesn’t mean it is supported to do such things however.

That 1% number of those affected doesn’t cover the entirety of dungeon selling. The evidence of it being a core element is there every day, all day long…

"
Something being tolerated does not = core element of the game.

Thi is not GW1. Anet have made strong efforts in getting this point accross and are having a much tighter grip on this economy than they ever did in GW1. Dungeon selling is currently no violation against ToS, but I guaranteed you anet is not overjoyed about it going on. "

You just said it’s not the economy they are worried about. They are worried about RMT, because it’s unfair and they lose money. I don’t think Anet care about dungeon selling (and if they do – they probably shouldn’t), because let’s face it, the same circumstances arose in GW1, namely the way Shadow Form was used, even Spell Breaker. I bet they drove the devs mad, but it was a core element of the game. I.e, they couldn’t do anything about it, and in GW1, they attempted to nerf it constantly, literally kittening droves of people off.

I’m glad GW2 is not GW1… because I hope they learnt from their mistakes, and won’t forsake all their long time fans, even of the original style of lore.

just ban player trading..

The lifeforce is strong with you.