Guild Wars 2

Devata.6589:

Tokens are nice thing to have to the side. Like Dungeon x reward something with 100% change (complete it, and get it) then some RNG but at the same time some token system at least allows you to get some other things that should not be the mean goal but more like a nice to have. (much like the dungeon sets).

Make tokens the main way and it’s just as bad as what we already have. Tokens are just a currency and all the currencies in the game help to create this grind.

I also said that, in that thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/11#post4521223.
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907

From a developer viewpoint tokens / currencies are easy way to have control over the economy but from a game perspective it is sort of boring.

“If this was a new game it would be easier to set up” Well, it would be a option for HoT.

Currencies are the only way to get rid of grind not what is creating grind.

The problem thats creating grind is at its core Anet not wanting to add a new gear tier every 6 months (and thank god for that ) . Some people just dont find cosmetics something worth playing for. They want their chars to become more powerful. Even people who go for cosmetics , releasing a new cosmetic set to work towards every 6 months will not work because some might not like it, others might find it a bad fit for their chars etc.. That forces Anet to make sure their rewards last a really long time which means it has to take a long time to earn that reward which is where the grind is coming from.

The least grindy way to achieve that is when they first introduced ascended gear. 30 laurels and you get a nice piece of ascended gear. All it takes to take 30 laurels is on average (strictly speaking you can do it in 20 days but..) is finish 30 dailies which back then was really play 30 minutes of whatever you feel like. That was really 0 grind thanks to 2 elements, a currency (IE you’re not forced into specific content types you might find boring) and time gating (IE they could just require 30 mins of game time from us just to reward us with a day worth of effort). Problem is people hated that. they felt they were wasting their time since only 30 mins of a potentially 8 hour game session was put towards their goal and they just didnt want to wait 30 days for their reward.

What made it grindy was dropping those 2 elements. without time gating the effort required could no longer be 30 mins per day, it had to be average play hours per day. Whats more for the most part it allowed people to pursuit their goal 24/7 IE while before people were free to play what they wanted all the time they can forced themselves to just work for the rewards and not have any actual fun make the grind feel much worst.

Currency was just never the problem. It was the solution but unfortunately one which went against human nature. Tragedy is while people complain about the grind its really what they want subconsciously. I know its a bold statement. But ask yourselves this.. would you rather have what we have now or we you rather go back to the old daily system (assume zeroed laurels)

maddoctor.2738:

tl;dr make all currencies work like guild merits (give them an upper cap), then the game won’t need any new currencies at all

You are so right you really need to get a star.

This is most definitely a big problem.

Its also probably a reason why some of us are really weary of changes. As great as a non-farmer play style is, it just puts people at a huge disadvantage when it comes to currencies. Anet are essentially forced to price things based on the player with the most currencies which would mean disaster for the non-farmer.

Its not like Anet can zero everyones currencies so its a problem with no easy solution either.

But yes, you hit the nail right center on its head here. I hope everyone considers what you said.

Galen Grey.4709:

maddoctor.2738:

tl;dr make all currencies work like guild merits (give them an upper cap), then the game won’t need any new currencies at all

You are so right you really need to get a star.

This is most definitely a big problem.

Its also probably a reason why some of us are really weary of changes. As great as a non-farmer play style is, it just puts people at a huge disadvantage when it comes to currencies. Anet are essentially forced to price things based on the player with the most currencies which would mean disaster for the non-farmer.

Its not like Anet can zero everyones currencies so its a problem with no easy solution either.

But yes, you hit the nail right center on its head here. I hope everyone considers what you said.

The “easy” solution would be to not allow players to earn any more of that currency, until they are below the cap

phys.7689:

artificial time gates are stupid.
Its a bad mechanic. Especially ones like 100 day things. Keep people logging in by making a good game, not by limiting progress.

It doesnt really matter if someone does something that takes 24 hours, in 24 hours, a week or a month.
the same time was invested.

the type of mechanical, simulation inspired changes you are talking about, are part of why the game feels grindy.
the average person/group taking a week to master a fight is not the same as making someone wait a week to do something.

time gating isnt about making people logging in or some way around a bad game.

Think about it, why would you log in every day to get rewards in a game you dont enjoy playing? no time gate is going to force you to play a game you have no intention of playing.

A time gate is a great mechanic when it comes to remove grind.

An MMO is made up from a ton of fluff to hide cold boring mechanics.

A reward’s cost always boils down to time. If something requires 250 ectos to craft its not because it needs said raw material but because its a reward for playing x amount of time where x is the average time needed to gather 250 ectos. This however creates a ton of problems.

Player A might play 1hr per day and what they usually play gives them .5 ectos per day.
Player B might play 8hrs per day and what they do gives them 10 ectos per day.

You want your reward to “cost” 100 days but for Player A that means 50 ectos while for player B that means 1000 ecto so what do you do? You may find if you take all players in consideration that means 250 ecto but obviously thats not perfect. Far from it. You’re forcing player A to work 250 days for his reward.
You’re over rewarding Player B by giving him his reward in 25 days instead of 100. The majority of the players need to spend 100 days going after ecto.

Enter time gating. With time gating you dont need players to spend a whole day doing a specific thing so you can keep your target time cost for the reward. With laurels Anet had us spend 30 mins in game and that was enough. Hence Player A and Player B could do what they want and still both get their reward after a 100 days. Perfect timing for all.

More importantly no need to spend a whole day potentially doing something you dont enjoy only cause it gets you your reward faster.

Like you said though that also means you cannot rush your reward… is that really a bad thing though? its exactly whats causing people to feel the game super grindy. You’re compressing 100 days of work down to 25 days. Thats like working 4 jobs at once, of course its going to feel grindy!

That time gating is forcing to log in is also a fallacy really.

Yes if you dont log in, it will take you 101 days instead of 100 but then again without time gating, you could slave and get your reward in 25 days instead of 100 sure.. then again if you dont log in one day that 25 will become 26… how is it any different?

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

maddoctor.2738:

tl;dr make all currencies work like guild merits (give them an upper cap), then the game won’t need any new currencies at all

You are so right you really need to get a star.

This is most definitely a big problem.

Its also probably a reason why some of us are really weary of changes. As great as a non-farmer play style is, it just puts people at a huge disadvantage when it comes to currencies. Anet are essentially forced to price things based on the player with the most currencies which would mean disaster for the non-farmer.

Its not like Anet can zero everyones currencies so its a problem with no easy solution either.

But yes, you hit the nail right center on its head here. I hope everyone considers what you said.

The “easy” solution would be to not allow players to earn any more of that currency, until they are below the cap

That doesnt take care of the existing stashes though. until those are depleted pricing will remain an issue

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

artificial time gates are stupid.
Its a bad mechanic. Especially ones like 100 day things. Keep people logging in by making a good game, not by limiting progress.

It doesnt really matter if someone does something that takes 24 hours, in 24 hours, a week or a month.
the same time was invested.

the type of mechanical, simulation inspired changes you are talking about, are part of why the game feels grindy.
the average person/group taking a week to master a fight is not the same as making someone wait a week to do something.

time gating isnt about making people logging in or some way around a bad game.

Think about it, why would you log in every day to get rewards in a game you dont enjoy playing? no time gate is going to force you to play a game you have no intention of playing.

A time gate is a great mechanic when it comes to remove grind.

An MMO is made up from a ton of fluff to hide cold boring mechanics.

A reward’s cost always boils down to time. If something requires 250 ectos to craft its not because it needs said raw material but because its a reward for playing x amount of time where x is the average time needed to gather 250 ectos. This however creates a ton of problems.

Player A might play 1hr per day and what they usually play gives them .5 ectos per day.
Player B might play 8hrs per day and what they do gives them 10 ectos per day.

You want your reward to “cost” 100 days but for Player A that means 50 ectos while for player B that means 1000 ecto so what do you do? You may find if you take all players in consideration that means 250 ecto but obviously thats not perfect. Far from it. You’re forcing player A to work 250 days for his reward.
You’re over rewarding Player B by giving him his reward in 25 days instead of 100. The majority of the players need to spend 100 days going after ecto.

Enter time gating. With time gating you dont need players to spend a whole day doing a specific thing so you can keep your target time cost for the reward. With laurels Anet had us spend 30 mins in game and that was enough. Hence Player A and Player B could do what they want and still both get their reward after a 100 days. Perfect timing for all.

More importantly no need to spend a whole day potentially doing something you dont enjoy only cause it gets you your reward faster.

Like you said though that also means you cannot rush your reward… is that really a bad thing though? its exactly whats causing people to feel the game super grindy. You’re compressing 100 days of work down to 25 days. Thats like working 4 jobs at once, of course its going to feel grindy!

That time gating is forcing to log in is also a fallacy really.

Yes if you dont log in, it will take you 101 days instead of 100 but then again without time gating, you could slave and get your reward in 25 days instead of 100 sure.. then again if you dont log in one day that 25 will become 26… how is it any different?

you should never want your reward to require X days, thats the flaw.

you may want your reward to require X skill, or X effort, but deciding you want it to last 100 days basically screws up the design.

but people will get bored! see its fine for people to get bored, if they enjoyed something, they will come back.

many people get bored when they have something limiting their progress.

Now there can be some things where time may be a useful tool, or by combining it with other mechanics, create something different.
but simple hard lockouts on time, is more frustrating than it is useful imo.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~

“. wouldnt it feel a ton more grindy if you’re trying to get something that will drop once in an average of 100 days then it is trying to get something that drops an average of 3 per day? technically its exactly the same but the fact you’re doing a little progress each and every day tricks us into thinking its less grindy.”
This is probably personal what explains why some people prefer to grind some currency to get there item and others prefer to work toward items directly. That is also why in my solution I do allow people to grind, I just simply not make it the only real option.
But to give my answer.. no it does not. It feels way less grindy or more fun. When you work with a currency you know it will take you 100 days, so slowly you see this number going up, no surprises, one you did your first run you know there are 99 left.
With direct drops there is always the rush of ‘will it drop’. You might be lucky and have it the first run, or unlucky and then it will take you to run 150. Every run a rush, or every run some number going up (or counting down how many runs left). Well I consider the number boring, and the rush a rush.

“1. 100 runs instead of 600 is definitely a lot better but 100 runs of doing something you dont enjoy is still much worst then doing something else you enjoy and will still feel more grindy (being you dont enjoy it)” You mean the earn gold with something else and buy it. However, this option is still available, at least for all the items that are not account-bound. Also if you make an item not account-bound what I would do and suggest is to put similar items behind different type of content. But sure, in those cases if you want that specific item and it’s account-bound you do have this problem. On the other hand that also adds more value for the item imho.

“2. time gating. based on past experience people hate being forced to limit their effort to just 30 minutes a day out of their game session working towards the goal they want.”
This is a little strange to come up with.. You time gated it. I just simply kept within your time-gated scope. You said it had to take 100 days. That means you time-gate it to 100 days. And in fact in my solution it’s only a average time-gate, you could still get it the first day. I agree with you people dislike time-gating but that’s the scope you give, not my choice.

“3. for an average of 100 runs you will get nothing of value towards your goal, there will be no small gratification to offset that grindy feel which i do believe will make the feeling worst”
Who said there could be no other rewards? Or do you mean if you simply look at the eco’s / currency vs none. Sure when we only look at that your right, but then again, how interesting is the currency if it’s useless to you until you buy the item? That currency is not so much a reward as it’s a mean to get the reward. But again this might be different for different people.

Point 4 is similar in nature to point 1 and also the same answer applies there.

“
1. Incentives people to run more dungeons
2. force people to not burn out (if you dont enjoy it at least you only have to do it for 30 mins a day max)
3. potentially help pugs find more teams to play with due to larger dungeon demand
4. make the reward feel more meaningful since you had to do specific work rather then just “goof” around for 100 days.”

I partly disagree with advantage 1. This would only be true for the rng part inside a dungeon. What is only a part of my suggestion. But sure, for that part it’s true.

2 and 3 are more side things, again also more focus on this specific example, not so much on my complete suggestion that does not only involve dungeons or rng.

Number 4 I agree with completely and I would add, makes the game (feel) less grindy.

The disadvantages. 1 depends on your playstyle and exact implementation. (not true for items that are not account-bound but that would lower positive point 4) and there are ways to lower this disadvantage but sure that is a possibility.

2 Is completely true but is a limit being created for this example. So true when you would want to turn the current system into what I suggested. Not true for my suggestion in general.

3. If we only look at the currency (not at other rewards you get at the same time) true or false depending on the person.

To get rid of grind/farming, you need to do actual content. The thing is, doing content is not an easy task. You either have a game without anything to do while waiting for another content bath that you’ll burn through many times quicker than it took to make and proceed to whine that there is no content, or you get something to grind for alongside content patches and proceed to whine that there is grind existing.

You cannot eat the cake and have it too. People ripped through the base game and got legendaries in a month or two, and it took half a decade to craft that game for aNet. There is nothing that they can do to satisfy hardcore and semi-hardcore playerbase in terms of content without turning to grind.

You need to understand that people are the problem. They have too much time on their hands, and they want to do everything at once, they put 40 hours a week into the game and then are surprised that there is not enough content. I’m not saying that this is invalid way to play the game, but you have to understand that if you want to play the game in such a manner, you have to be ready for consequences, and the consequences will be that you need to either stop playing or resort to grind. There is no possibility of producing content fast enough to satiate playerbase, there will be always demand for more. So just put the game down or do some grind for some skin, since there is no way aNet will put the content fast enough.

Also, if you want to remove grind from your game entirely, play pvp for the fun of playing pvp instead of trying to get max rank. If you don’t like pvp, well, tough luck.

Here are my thoughts. When people are literally expecting a “no grind” experience, I think that’s asking a little too much as there have been very few RPGs especially MMOs that pull it off without making the game feel boring. To me, it’s not about removing the problem of grinding but rather making grinding less obvious to most MMO players. Granted, a lot of people will catch on to this eventually, but compared to most MMOs, this is one such game where the grinding is not something you do out of a “need” as opposed to a “want”.

Ratzing.5084:

To get rid of grind/farming, you need to do actual content. The thing is, doing content is not an easy task. You either have a game without anything to do while waiting for another content bath that you’ll burn through many times quicker than it took to make and proceed to whine that there is no content, or you get something to grind for alongside content patches and proceed to whine that there is grind existing.

You cannot eat the cake and have it too. People ripped through the base game and got legendaries in a month or two, and it took half a decade to craft that game for aNet. There is nothing that they can do to satisfy hardcore and semi-hardcore playerbase in terms of content without turning to grind.

You need to understand that people are the problem. They have too much time on their hands, and they want to do everything at once, they put 40 hours a week into the game and then are surprised that there is not enough content. I’m not saying that this is invalid way to play the game, but you have to understand that if you want to play the game in such a manner, you have to be ready for consequences, and the consequences will be that you need to either stop playing or resort to grind. There is no possibility of producing content fast enough to satiate playerbase, there will be always demand for more. So just put the game down or do some grind for some skin, since there is no way aNet will put the content fast enough.

Also, if you want to remove grind from your game entirely, play pvp for the fun of playing pvp instead of trying to get max rank. If you don’t like pvp, well, tough luck.

no, people arent the problem, the problem is that they want to force everyone to experience the game at the same pace.
Imagine if books limited you to a page a day, because they wanted you not have to wait for the next book.
many people would rather read the book at their own pace, and then buy the next book if they enjoyed it.

You dont have to force people to play your game slowly in order to have them enjoy it, thats just not true

Ratzing.5084:

You need to understand that people are the problem.

Yes, yes indeed they are. I’ve been saying this for years (not just in regards to gaming).

phys.7689:

no, people arent the problem, the problem is that they want to force everyone to experience the game at the same pace.
Imagine if books limited you to a page a day, because they wanted you not have to wait for the next book.
many people would rather read the book at their own pace, and then buy the next book if they enjoyed it.

You dont have to force people to play your game slowly in order to have them enjoy it, thats just not true

Anet gives lots of optios for play style in the game. We aren’t forced to really do anything any specific way.

The game isn’t limiting you to ‘a page a day’ using your analogy. You can burn through the available content as fast as you please. However, like a book, once you hit the end, you have to wait for the next “book” to come out. Which means you either entertain yourself with what you have, or you go do something else. You don’t kitten and moan “gimme gimme gimme, me me me, mine mine mine” in the mean time.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

phys.7689:

no, people arent the problem, the problem is that they want to force everyone to experience the game at the same pace.
Imagine if books limited you to a page a day, because they wanted you not have to wait for the next book.
many people would rather read the book at their own pace, and then buy the next book if they enjoyed it.

You dont have to force people to play your game slowly in order to have them enjoy it, thats just not true

Anet gives lots of optios for play style in the game. We aren’t forced to really do anything any specific way.

The game isn’t limiting you to ‘a page a day’ using your analogy. You can burn through the available content as fast as you please. However, like a book, once you hit the end, you have to wait for the next “book” to come out. Which means you either entertain yourself with what you have, or you go do something else. You don’t kitten and moan “gimme gimme gimme, me me me, mine mine mine” in the mean time.

well my post was more in the context of time locks/deciding you want people to do X for Y amount of days before completing it
as that is what we were discussing recently.

Devata.6589:

cranos.5913:

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

The suggestion I made does not hurt the people who like the current grind, they can still do that.

It hurts everyone that plays the game a lot. Put all the rewards in game for no grind and ppl will have everything extremely soon because it’s just too easy to get. The only other options I see are extreme skill gates (but GW2 is a casual game) and time gates, which are terrible tbh.

phys.7689:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

phys.7689:

no, people arent the problem, the problem is that they want to force everyone to experience the game at the same pace.
Imagine if books limited you to a page a day, because they wanted you not have to wait for the next book.
many people would rather read the book at their own pace, and then buy the next book if they enjoyed it.

You dont have to force people to play your game slowly in order to have them enjoy it, thats just not true

Anet gives lots of optios for play style in the game. We aren’t forced to really do anything any specific way.

The game isn’t limiting you to ‘a page a day’ using your analogy. You can burn through the available content as fast as you please. However, like a book, once you hit the end, you have to wait for the next “book” to come out. Which means you either entertain yourself with what you have, or you go do something else. You don’t kitten and moan “gimme gimme gimme, me me me, mine mine mine” in the mean time.

well my post was more in the context of time locks/deciding you want people to do X for Y amount of days before completing it
as that is what we were discussing recently.

That falls under ‘entertaining yourself’ after you blow through the content. Games use time locking and / or grind to draw it out so you spend more time entertaining yourself in the interim between “books.” Its not all that different than opting to reread a book (or the series) as you wait for the next installment. Technically, the only thing that really applies to, though, is ascended and only if you choose to craft the daily materials yourself. Generally speaking, there are ways around a lot (if not all) of the time locks that GW2 has.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

When I am a collector, some other game sends me all over the world, rewarding a specific item for a specific content. Giving more meaning to the item and making the hunt for items more fun.

When you are a collector in GW2 you can’t hunt down most of the items directly. It’s all about gold (or some other currency) and maybe there are then 6 or so methods to get that gold. (dungeons, farm train (of what we have 3? types) and farming world-bosses)

So while you have some choice in how to grind the gold, it still is, want item x? grind gold, next item, grind gold, next item grind gold and so on.

Of course at the same time new items are being added all the time, and let not fool each other. In the current system it’s supposed to be a grind in the hope people will buy there way out of it by buying gems to buy gold or buy the item. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac&t=2m26s

So there is a very big difference from being a collector in GW2 or in such other game.

Only in the short term, every single collection item is an item that drops and every single one of them drops from multiple places so yeah you’d burn out if you try going farming every item in the exotic collection. But if you’re playing the game you’ll be killing champions and earning champion bags and what not. In turn that will give you one of the collection items now and again. Granted personally I had 4 drop on me. Thats like 4 in a year.. out of 34 so baring duplicates it will take 8 years to finish it all which is crazy long no doubt. 1 is already in… had this been something added at launch I’d already be nearly 1/2 way in without even having to put any effort into it.

As for other games, which games are you talking about? cause the ones that do collections that I am aware of (rift, eq2, neverwinter, WoW) arent really that much different. Both in rift and Eq2 what is called shines are heavily dependent on rng. they’re not much different then what gw2 does. you either spend a really long time hunting them down or much easier you buy them. Most people do a bit of both.

Neverwinter is even worst. some collections require massive grinds while others require buying directly for real money.

Wow has a mix, but it too has some collections that can only be completed by spending real money (and thats with a sub no less) while others require massive grinds or you buy what you need off the AH which we know what most people do when faced with this choice

Gw2 seem pretty in line with what others too, make no mistake, not saying gw2 is better, its not. while strictly speaking its entirely possible to complete every collection without spending a single cent its not really realistic. I am not sure anyone can really make enough gold to finish all those black lion weapon sets in an entire life time. but likewise I dont think its possible to complete every collection in the other mmos either not even if you have access to unlimited amount of in game money. Dont think collections are things you’re meant to ever fully complete.

You are mixing up ‘collections’ with collectors. What I reacted on was somebody talking about collectors. So people who like to collect items, like going out for an item they like, and then another one and so on.

Let’s say I want to collect mini’s in WoW there are many ways to do that, but most I can directly work towards. They are in a dungeon, behind a quest, dropped by a mob, rewarded for an achievement, created with an craft or cached in the world and some are being sold by vendors (usually those are pretty cheap) and then maybe a few would only be obtainable by grind. Can’t remind coming by any of those by I trust your word for it.

Now compare that to GW2. A few you can get in these ways but by far most are not realistically or factually not available in another way then buying them with gold.

So GW2 is far from online with the others on this part.

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

You are the one talk ?
When in the other Thread you first words where ‘’I hope Blizzard release ’’Titan’’ faster’’
Without knowing what kind of game will be (mmo-fps) and what kind of of paying model they wold choose , you begged for that game to realease faster , because you hate the gring of GW2 .

I have an idea …. leave the forums and go to the ‘’Titan…’’’

You even make curculars comments without understanding a clue about what to say of the concequensies . The 5 years old kids i know , are a lot of smarter

You came here and you said that i ‘’envisioned ’’ other games of dying and i hate to happen in GW2 too .
And when i asked about to link me to the post you said ‘’why you dont trustme’’ ?
And when did link it , it was saying : ’’Make a games for the FREAKS and ppl will come . Create a game for the casuals and the game Might die ’

You kept linking in the other threads , money gained from GTA5 and the Destiny in order to back up your plan that will work .
You didnt understand some simply maths such as cost to maintain the GW1 vs GW2 and how much money they need + how much population they had + how many developers they had in the 1st game , and you claimed that ‘’everything will be fine’’

And you come here with PLANS THAT ALREADY WORKED , EVEN THE BIKINI CASMEER THAT WAS SOLND IN THE GEM AND DROPPED INSIDE .

When you where little , did you hurt your head ?
Because you dont understand simple things and simple maths , but you try to be a smart@@
You are the TROLL that pollute the servers , and you should try to get in other games …
In 2 huge megathreads , you are wasting our time , without a clue how things works OR EVEN IF THEY ARE INGAME …….

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

hold your horses now… what do you mean no real arguments?

Something like “Lets talk about who cares? And get over it.” and there are a few other comments of this same level.

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

hold your horses now… what do you mean no real arguments?

Something like “Lets talk about who cares? And get over it.” and there are a few other comments of this same level.

Because you arguments are sane ?
If you dont have a solllution that is NOT ALLREADY INGAME , YOU SHOULD MAKE CIRCULAR POSTS AFTER POSTS …

Edit: Common , lets do an other circular conversation where i explained to you the economic difference of GW1 vs GW2
and all of our conversation is a more ‘’manly way ’’

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest thread for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

What about trying to push people who just make that circular grind argument away to try to discuss what the heck to do about the grind?

Oh, wait, because I enjoy the game mostly as-is, I must be one of the threats. Nevermind.

No you aren’t. While we may disagree on points you give arguments explain what you think and why. that is perfectly fine.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/2#post4729972
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/2#post4730145
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/3#post4730757
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/3#post4731500
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/9#post4743313

There you go. I’ve already made my case in the prior thread before it went into the double digits.

If you want to simulate a 30+ page merry-go-round of circular argument, you can reread it every new page that this one gets to your hearts content.

If you say anything that isn’t more or less a repeat of what you already had to say back then, I’ll consider a more meaningful reply. Maybe.

I’ll dip my little toe into the argument now and then, and that’s my choice to make. But when it comes to forum grinding, I’m a filthy casual. Just too grindy for my blood.

Sorry.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).

Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.

Sure, so because you made your point before that gives you the right to now just troll the forum with comments like

“… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.
Yes. Grind is grind.”

Or conclude from a sentence where I say “And no, not everything is a grind” that according to me everything (whatever everything might be) is a grind.

No matter if you made your point before, comments like those don’t add anything to the discussion and can only be seen as trolling.

About a lot of repeating going on. Yes that is true. That is also because a lot of different people ask the same questions or people want to talk about something in more detail, that means half of the comment is already a repeat, only the detailed part is new. Same for examples.

Devata.6589:

No matter if you made your point before, comments like those don’t add anything to the discussion and can only be seen as trolling.

When you keep reapeating the same copy-paste ‘’ general plans of your’’ (BUT MY PLAN IS TO PUT THE SKINS INSDE THE GAME ) over and over again in various ppl to answer their DIFFERENT QUESTIONS is Trolling …
BECAUSE THE THREAD YOU CREATED TANKS ABOUT GRIND AND NOT DEVATAS GRIND !
And in the other thread you mounted up …. ppl hated the Achentand Gear , but an other person called Devata ‘’boss around that thread with (half the cooments on that threads was from HIM)’’ with the same attitude and circular comment he is doing here ….

You couldnt even w8 1 days , before making silly comments such as :
‘’They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later’’

Lets have 10 days of fun then ….
You choosed it …
I tried to give you some space , to see how your ideas will evolve …
But because you are not very smart and wanted to start a war , i am obligated to join you … (fine by me , because in my ’’burnout’’ state i have some anger issuses and want to ‘’steam out’’ :P)

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Tokens are nice thing to have to the side. Like Dungeon x reward something with 100% change (complete it, and get it) then some RNG but at the same time some token system at least allows you to get some other things that should not be the mean goal but more like a nice to have. (much like the dungeon sets).

Make tokens the main way and it’s just as bad as what we already have. Tokens are just a currency and all the currencies in the game help to create this grind.

I also said that, in that thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/11#post4521223.
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907

From a developer viewpoint tokens / currencies are easy way to have control over the economy but from a game perspective it is sort of boring.

“If this was a new game it would be easier to set up” Well, it would be a option for HoT.

Currencies are the only way to get rid of grind not what is creating grind.

The problem thats creating grind is at its core Anet not wanting to add a new gear tier every 6 months (and thank god for that ) . Some people just dont find cosmetics something worth playing for. They want their chars to become more powerful. Even people who go for cosmetics , releasing a new cosmetic set to work towards every 6 months will not work because some might not like it, others might find it a bad fit for their chars etc.. That forces Anet to make sure their rewards last a really long time which means it has to take a long time to earn that reward which is where the grind is coming from.

The least grindy way to achieve that is when they first introduced ascended gear. 30 laurels and you get a nice piece of ascended gear. All it takes to take 30 laurels is on average (strictly speaking you can do it in 20 days but..) is finish 30 dailies which back then was really play 30 minutes of whatever you feel like. That was really 0 grind thanks to 2 elements, a currency (IE you’re not forced into specific content types you might find boring) and time gating (IE they could just require 30 mins of game time from us just to reward us with a day worth of effort). Problem is people hated that. they felt they were wasting their time since only 30 mins of a potentially 8 hour game session was put towards their goal and they just didnt want to wait 30 days for their reward.

What made it grindy was dropping those 2 elements. without time gating the effort required could no longer be 30 mins per day, it had to be average play hours per day. Whats more for the most part it allowed people to pursuit their goal 24/7 IE while before people were free to play what they wanted all the time they can forced themselves to just work for the rewards and not have any actual fun make the grind feel much worst.

Currency was just never the problem. It was the solution but unfortunately one which went against human nature. Tragedy is while people complain about the grind its really what they want subconsciously. I know its a bold statement. But ask yourselves this.. would you rather have what we have now or we you rather go back to the old daily system (assume zeroed laurels)

“Currencies are the only way to get rid of grind not what is creating grind.” Currencies by themselves don’t have to be the reason for grind, but they for sure are not the way to get rid of it.

“The problem thats creating grind is at its core Anet not wanting to add a new gear tier every 6 months ” I really don’t see how this would be the reason for grind.

“That forces Anet to make sure their rewards last a really long time which means it has to take a long time to earn that reward which is where the grind is coming from. ” The items you just say people might not want. Not to mention time time does not equal grind. No this really has nothing to do with the grind.

“. But ask yourselves this.. would you rather have what we have now or we you rather go back to the old daily system ”
Like I said, what you mentioned here has not much to do with grind. I did prefer the old system better because it was more optional while I like the fact that later there was a little more choice with the dailies but I stopped doing dailies a long long time ago. No this is (for me) completely unrelated to the grind I talk about.

Grind is subjective opinion, nothing more. It is the inability to control ones desire.

All I’m seeing in here is the same old, tired people who have been complaining about it for months.

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I think you and I differ on our definition of optional grind. To me, a grind is optional when it rewards players with cosmetic account bound items and/or the account bound materials to acquire those cosmetic account bound items. However, when a grind is the most efficient way to obtain the currency that enables players to do pretty much everything else in the game (like Silverwastes is), it is no longer optional; it’s the optimal way to play. I contend that that the optimal way is not optional for many players. The overemphasis on grind in this game drives TP prices out of reach for non-grinders. For that reason I don’t think it’s accurate to say that grind in this game is optional.

As an aside, pretty much every active member of my guild grinds exclusively. All the other content (dungeons, fractals, etc.) is pretty much dead to them.

Bernie.8674:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I think you and I differ on our definition of optional grind. To me, a grind is optional when it rewards players with cosmetic account bound items and/or the account bound materials to acquire those cosmetic account bound items. However, when a grind is the most efficient way to obtain the currency that enables players to do pretty much everything else in the game (like Silverwastes is), it is no longer optional; it’s the optimal way to play. I contend that that the optimal way is not optional for many players. The overemphasis on grind in this game drives TP prices out of reach for non-grinders. For that reason I don’t think it’s accurate to say that grind in this game is optional.

As an aside, pretty much every active member of my guild grinds exclusively. All the other content (dungeons, fractals, etc.) is pretty much dead to them.

no offense but that seems like a very boring guild to be in

no new members? no alts to gear up? no map completion ? guild missions ? if your not doing these things no wonder your bored with the game

LMFAO, If you think Guild War’s 2 is “Grindy.” go play ArcheAge now that is a “Grind.”

It seems to me like Devata wants certain in-game items, such as mini-pets, collection items, weapon/armor skins, etc. to be easier to acquire via in-game means. Some minis and skins aren’t even available in the game any longer, meaning people that play the game primarily to collect items will have a lot of holes in their collections and that isn’t fun for them.

Honestly, I don’t see what harm it would do if these items were easier to acquire overall. The sheer number of mini-pets and skins in the game, even if they were relatively easy to acquire, would take a very long time to get them all, thus negating peoples’ concerns that making items easier to get would leave people with nothing to do.

This is at the crux of her feeling there’s grind in the game, unless I’m misunderstanding her position completely.

Devata.6589:

“That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.”
Except if that type of content you like is hunting down items?

I would say that even if you don’t like hunting down items you aren’t getting the same rewards as everyone else. I defend a fort in Silverwastes for five minutes and come out with a 8 bags of masterwork gear, some imperal fragments, a few bandit crests, and a few silver. If I invest the same amount of time in any other area I’ll come out with 1500 XP, 1000 karma, and a couple of silver. I don’t think the rewards are anywhere near the same. Your options are to farm Silverwastes for anything in the game you want or to spend eight times longer in any other area. Spending an hour in a fractal will net you the same rewards that 15 minutes in Silverwastes would. How is grinding optional again?

The problem is the “optional” grind for cosmetic gear, or PvP rank, or WvW xp, whatever, is that’s all there is to do at level 80. If you choose to do no grind at level 80, then you have effectivly chosen to do nothing in at all.
You have a choice of dungeon grind for gold and tokens, grind silverwastes for mordrem parts, bandit crests etc. Grind drytop for amber, grind WvW for xp/abilities, grind SPvP for rank …. yeah, this “optional” grind APPARENTLY means giving us a choice between one kind of grinding, and another type of grinding…

Celtic Lady.3729:

It seems to me like Devata wants certain in-game items, such as mini-pets, collection items, weapon/armor skins, etc. to be easier to acquire via in-game means. Some minis and skins aren’t even available in the game any longer, meaning people that play the game primarily to collect items will have a lot of holes in their collections and that isn’t fun for them.

Honestly, I don’t see what harm it would do if these items were easier to acquire overall. The sheer number of mini-pets and skins in the game, even if they were relatively easy to acquire, would take a very long time to get them all, thus negating peoples’ concerns that making items easier to get would leave people with nothing to do.

This is at the crux of her feeling there’s grind in the game, unless I’m misunderstanding her position completely.

Devata wants :
a) Gem Store removed and those items to be handed inside for free , by attaching them into ingame rewards .

b) His newer idea , is those Gem Store Items to have a chance to be dropped inside .
(The company have already expiriment in the past with the Bikini Mini Kasmeer)

In both cases Gem Store works as a gold sink (that why they remove the repair costs ….) so TP prices dont explode a lot like WoW and other games .
Because then , he (and the rest of the planet) must ’’grind’’ Gold a hell lot more ….

And ’’fuels’’ so the rest of us have the 2-week updates and not 4+ months w8ing for something new

….. The community rather than leaving the circular mentality , some1 have thought and give the most simple acceptable proposal (its not Rocket kittening Science) :
Now they are selling x-packs
> they will have an aim
> if that aim is reached (for example get 120 million dollars with selling x-packs)
> then can should slow down with the gem store items , to once per month .
> If they dont meet the goal , they can get back to sell gem store item to reach the year goal
>and let the Legendary Scavanger be as costly as the Achentant Craft , in order to act as a Gold sink > so the TP prices dont spike (in the case they get the 120 million)

But its different think to try to CHANGE/ADD something INGAME (more Raids-Flying Mounts)
And different thing to change something that will effect the Economic State of the company (they should remove the subs ….well because of reasons …. which they must think and implant …)…

Its 2 different kittening things , and random noobs without proper Economic Studies (me inclueded) , should not be hurp hurd nonsense on the forums AND WILL EFFECT THE OTHER 1,5-2 MILLION PPL THAT ARE PLAYING GW2 ….

If some ppl cant understand the difference in those 2 things , i will simply offer a spectacualr show to the forums :P
And because i dont want this thread to be deleted … i will keep ’’discusing’’ to only ‘’few ppl ’’

LucosTheDutch.4819:

All MMOs have grind in some way or form, there is no way around it. The challenge for the developers is to try to hide the grind as much as possible and make it less apparent and less boring. In my opinion, WoW did a good job at this. In my opinion, GW2 did not.

Unless you dislike doing challenging raids or engaging questlines to unlock said raids, WoW’s grind was not that bad. When I played it I actually looked forward to gettng home, turning on my PC, getting on WoW and doing the planned raid(s) with my guild. It was challenging, fun and the rewards were good.

In GW2 I had that same feeling only a few times: The first time doing dungeons (when everyone thought they were hard), when Tequatl first got updated, when the Twisted Marionette was introduced, when Triple Trouble was introduced and the first few times of doing The Silverwastes.

I absolutely loved grinding those bosses each day, sometimes multiple attempts per day! Why? Because these fights where challenging, engaging and of the same quality as WoW raids. The fun was not in getting the rewards either, the fun was in knowing you could fail but if you didn’t you’d get rewarded decently for it.

Flash-forward to now and I don’t enjoy any of the above-mentioned content anymore. Why? Because it became too easy and got reduced to farm-status (a term used by MMO players to indicate it’s a sure and easy win and you’ll get your little reward with little effort).

And here is the real problem. Farming is the worst kind of grind. It is absolutely boring and mind-numbing. And pretty much all PvE content got reduced to farm-status. The only reason to do any of the above mentioned content now is for the rewards.

And here is another problem. The rewards for doing anything remotely fun in GW2 are lackluster and not worthwhile. I get no fun out of doing a farm-status boss for a hand full of silver and one or two rares, especially not when I know I can make thirty times as much by doing a real actual farm (ToT bag farm in Bloodtide Coast).

GW2’s biggest problem is that almost everything can be bought with gold and the most efficient way to get that gold is by doing incredibly boring farm (be it a dungeon speedrun train, a world-boss train, ToT bag farm or farming Silverwastes, they’re all farm-status now) and we just established that farming is the worst kind of grind.

It basically comes down to: You want something? You’ll have to farm for it.

This problem isn’t exclusive to GW2 but it’s most apparent in GW2 because of 2 reasons:

1) Everything can (and sometimes must) be bought with gold and the only effective way of getting that gold is doing some kind of farm.

2) Almost all rewarding PvE content in GW2 has been reduced to farm-status and Anet does not give us enough new content to challenge and engage us again.

The expansion pack we’re finally getting is long overdue and I truly hope that HoT will introduce some new challenging group content with decent rewards. That should surely make GW2 feel less grindy again.

But it will only be a matter of time before the HoT content will also be reduced to farm-status. Will Anet be ready with yet another expansion or some updates by the time that happens? Or will GW2 return to feeling super boring and grindy 6 months after the expansion?

If you really think about it, perhaps the bigger problem very few people acknowledge is our own intelligence as humans so as to make such said game content easier through clever strategizing to the point of ‘grind status’ where nothing feels rewarding anymore like when we first attempt or get a taste of something for reason being players have a tendency to hunger for things faster than game developers can push out fresh content.

Truth be told, we are living in a day and time where it is becoming apparent that the gaming industry, the movie industry and almost all other forms of other entertainment for audiences are running out of ideas, and the only thing keeping these industries afloat is the consumer’s ignorance (and the ignorance of developers) because hardly anyone wants to face that truth.

Denying these things only sharpens my points.

Therefore, if you don’t like something (in this case, grind or what seems like a grind), change it, and if you cannot change it, change the way you think about it, that which is really the only way to solve the above stated problem, that is to say, our gaming cleverness and our unrelenting desire to always want change or more of something regardless of what game developers do.

When it comes to game content, the slow pendulum can only go to the left or to the right for so long until it comes back again to repeat itself, and no amount of new game content developer add to any game is going to remedy that issue.

Why? Because all things come to an end. Fancy that…

Azhure.1857:

Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:

Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)

• +42 Power
• +42 Precision
• +42 Toughness
• +42 Vitality
• +42 Condition Damage
• +42 Ferocity
• +42 Healing Power
• +100% to Magic Find

This thread is such a grind.

How much silk do we have to grind to craft Consensus?

Galen Grey.4709:

In the other thread I did an anology that I think it fits great.

Person A starts his first job. Wants a car. Does the Math and finds he need to work for a year to save enough in order to buy that Car. Works his year, enjoys his job and finally gets the car. All is great.

Person B starts his first job. Wants a Car. Does the Math find out he needs to work for a year in order to buy the car. Person B thinks a Year is just way too long so he starts 2 more jobs and cuts down the time required to get a car from 1 year to 4 months. Works for 4 months, enjoys none of his jobs cause naturally he’s all burned out finally gets a car but he felt it wasnt worthed going through all of that.

And if the story ended there, we would all live happily ever after. But Person B is now used to working two jobs and decides to buy more cars because buying them is fun. The dealership realizes that there are lots of Bs out there looking to get multiple cars, so they jack up their rates to the point where Person B is now having to work the two jobs for a year to get his next car. Person B doesn’t mind so much because he already got his first car, and he plans to simply resell the next set of cars anyway. Besides, he’s so used to working two jobs now that he doesn’t even tire anymore. The fact that car prices go ever higher benefits him because he can buy more cars, squat on them, and then resell them later for megaprofits. Person A, in the meantime, goes back to the dealership a year later only to find that he’s now going to have to spend an additional three years working his job in order to get that car. You can argue that Person A isn’t required to work two jobs all you want, but the fact is that without working those two jobs he’s just going to keep coming up short at the dealership.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

no offense but that seems like a very boring guild to be in

no new members? no alts to gear up? no map completion ? guild missions ? if your not doing these things no wonder your bored with the game

I’ve been with some members of my guild since the GW1 beta. My guild, in its current form, has been together since about 2006. It’s a pretty good guild. We do guild missions, but those take 45 minutes (rush + puzzle + challenge + bounty) a week. Other than that, everyone does Silverwastes because that’s pretty much the only way to reliably buy a precursor. I’ve always been kind of an oddball because I could care less about skins. I’ve never been into farming, and that’s why I quit playing GW1 in 2008. I’ve reached a point in this game where I’m about ready to call it quits for another six years. 10 silk per day just doesn’t feel like progress when you have 3600 more to go.

Azhure.1857:

Blude.6812:

Azhure.1857:

Lo and behold, the forum goers have done it again…
Fighting for hours, days, even weeks on end.
Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:

Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)

• +42 Power
• +42 Precision
• +42 Toughness
• +42 Vitality
• +42 Condition Damage
• +42 Ferocity
• +42 Healing Power
• +100% to Magic Find

This thread is such a grind.

It’s optional—-you don’t have to read it—so therefore it is not a grind. LOL

You’re the best. * highfive *
Love it. Thank you.

You are more than welcome! fistbump

Blude.6812:

Azhure.1857:

Blude.6812:

Azhure.1857:

Lo and behold, the forum goers have done it again…
Fighting for hours, days, even weeks on end.
Running in circles trying to attain that magical and elusive grand prize:

Consensus--This amulet radiates power and hums a low tune. (Special effect: Randomly plays General Lee’s Dixie horn when a player jumps with this item equipped.)

• +42 Power
• +42 Precision
• +42 Toughness
• +42 Vitality
• +42 Condition Damage
• +42 Ferocity
• +42 Healing Power
• +100% to Magic Find

This thread is such a grind.

It’s optional—-you don’t have to read it—so therefore it is not a grind. LOL

You’re the best. * highfive *
Love it. Thank you.

You are more than welcome! fistbump

I read this post and it was so amusing I read it again. But it wasn’t quite as funny the second time. My reward for reading it was less. Then I read it a third time when proof reading my response. Man. What a grind.

Didn’t ANet promise no grinding in the forum? They lied to us! >.>

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.

Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.

It didn’t have the grind that this GW2 has and depending on what game.I know in PWI if you got the cash you can be leveled fast.

cranos.5913:

Devata.6589:

cranos.5913:

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

The suggestion I made does not hurt the people who like the current grind, they can still do that.

It hurts everyone that plays the game a lot. Put all the rewards in game for no grind and ppl will have everything extremely soon because it’s just too easy to get. The only other options I see are extreme skill gates (but GW2 is a casual game) and time gates, which are terrible tbh.

Put all the rewards in game for no grind != ppl will have everything extremely soon.

That is really something you make of it. You can put things behind content and it can still take people a long time to get it.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

~

Lol you are really funny.

“‘I hope Blizzard release ’’Titan’’ faster’”" Where did I say that, what thread are you talking about and in what context was it?
Please link it so we know what the heck you are talking about.

“You even make curculars comments without understanding a clue about what to say of the concequensies " Again no link or example, just some nonsense.

“’’Make a games for the FREAKS and ppl will come . Create a game for the casuals and the game Might die "
This one is even more funny as you read it so you know FREAKS was not a word I came up with but somebody else (I reacted on his comment) and he used it to refer to PC-gamers (not fans).
If you have to lie to try and make your point you know that usually means your wrong right?
Casuals was referring to console-games. (by leaving that out and placing it in this thread the context is completely lost, but then again, that’s the point right?) And the game this was about was Crysis where what I said has come true. (sales of Crysis 3 will be bad and we likely see no Crysis 4) Not bad considering I said that in 2011 based on what Crytec was doing then with Crysis 2.

“You didnt understand some simply maths such as cost to maintain the GW1 vs GW2 and how much money they need + how much population they had + how many developers they had in the 1st game , and you claimed that ‘’everything will be fine’’”
In fact the math was pretty easy, well maybe to hard for some. All the math did was compare percentage of income based on original sale and comparing that in GW1 to GW2. Then GW1 did it better. Also I did mention multiple times that that was working with all the information we did have. (As we do not have all the information)

“you are wasting our time ,” Luckily it’s completely optional for you to come in here and comment.

The funny thing about your comment is that I know you think you just placed a very strong comment but it’s really a little sad.

Celtic Lady.3729:

It seems to me like Devata wants certain in-game items, such as mini-pets, collection items, weapon/armor skins, etc. to be easier to acquire via in-game means. Some minis and skins aren’t even available in the game any longer, meaning people that play the game primarily to collect items will have a lot of holes in their collections and that isn’t fun for them.

Honestly, I don’t see what harm it would do if these items were easier to acquire overall. The sheer number of mini-pets and skins in the game, even if they were relatively easy to acquire, would take a very long time to get them all, thus negating peoples’ concerns that making items easier to get would leave people with nothing to do.

This is at the crux of her feeling there’s grind in the game, unless I’m misunderstanding her position completely.

Not so much easier, but being acquirable in-game directly from content. The rest if what you say is indeed in line with what I am saying.

Devata.6589:

Sure, so because you made your point before that gives you the right to now just troll the forum with comments like

“… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.
Yes. Grind is grind.”

I’m not trolling. Just telling it like it is.

Every goalpost moving schmuck and half-wit can keep this circular argument going on forever since most folks want to pretend there is no objective standard…

Even after the game director elaborated on and established the matter of fact.

One can ignore the facts and say the same things only so many times. The old post got closed for a reason.

At this rate, this one is certain to follow.

Devata.6589:

Or conclude from a sentence where I say “And no, not everything is a grind” that according to me everything (whatever everything might be) is a grind.

Devata.6589:

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).

Yeah. It’s a pretty safe conclusion. Because that is what you said.

Grind for non essencial items is the reason i play this game everyday. Remove the grind and i wont want to login anymore, i LIKE to grind.

If the rewards are behind quest chains, it won’t take more than a couple of days before all the information on how to do it is in wiki. With a cooperative game like this where each person gets the loot, parties of fully geared level 80s will blow right through the quests to get the reward. Unless the content is gated in some manner or is made so hard that most rage quit, they’ll run through the quests that the Devs spent weeks working on then turn around and say, “Is that all?”

Haha. You guys are getting trolled so hard. Just look at the OP’s post history. I’ll break it down for you:

• Gem store = Evil
• Expansions every year or less.
• I know game monetization better than all the professionals that work for Anet.
• Expansions, expansions, expansions..
• Gem store = evil and if I want what is in the gem store and wish to buy it for gold it it is grind.
• If I want it and have to do anything I don’t like to do to get it, it is grind.

That’s basically it. You can keep arguing with him all you want. The results will never change.

I’ll admit I just scanned over this thread but I’m familiar with the OP’s MO. I think mostly he just likes the attention.

And no, Devata I won’t reply to what you have to say regarding my post so don’t bother. I’m not a fan of listening to broken records.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If the rewards are behind quest chains, it won’t take more than a couple of days before all the information on how to do it is in wiki. With a cooperative game like this where each person gets the loot, parties of fully geared level 80s will blow right through the quests to get the reward. Unless the content is gated in some manner or is made so hard that most rage quit, they’ll run through the quests that the Devs spent weeks working on then turn around and say, “Is that all?”

whats wrong with that?

If someone could do all the homework/tests/projects a teacher was going to assign for the whole year, then they have earned the right to sit on their butts for awhile.

I am not saying things should not require effort, im saying that you shouldnt artificially spread out that effort in illogical ways just to get people to keep playing. Make the effort required logical to the task, instead of logical to how long you want them to play.

cranos.5913:

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

Grind doesn’t equal content, time gates are no substitute for story, and people need to stop taking these things for granted. Poor workmanship should never replace the best content and we all know what that is even if some people can’t admit that this game is lacking which is the reason why a huge grind was implemented in the first place, it’s called “busy work”.

And no to answer someone above who called people names when they come here to discuss things, we do have arguments and we do have facts and we do have historic precedent what do you have? hmm? You don’t have anything save for calling members of your community names when we point out how wrong you are about a subject.

Now those of us who’ve had many many years of experience playing MMO’s know that you cannot give players busy work as a replacement for good quality compelling plot lines or other activities. We know what a good rewards system looks like, and we also know what it looks like when a game is designed with not busy work but content in which gear doesn’t matter and you can do everything without a single member of the community booting you because you aren’t using the meta at the time. Those things aren’t happening in this game and we’re waiting to see (a rather long time btw) if they’ll come to their senses and listen to those of us who’ve had the most experience in these forums.

It’s definitely not because we don’t like the game. I have so many better things to do with my time trust me.

phys.7689:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If the rewards are behind quest chains, it won’t take more than a couple of days before all the information on how to do it is in wiki. With a cooperative game like this where each person gets the loot, parties of fully geared level 80s will blow right through the quests to get the reward. Unless the content is gated in some manner or is made so hard that most rage quit, they’ll run through the quests that the Devs spent weeks working on then turn around and say, “Is that all?”

whats wrong with that?

If someone could do all the homework/tests/projects a teacher was going to assign for the whole year, then they have earned the right to sit on their butts for awhile.

I am not saying things should not require effort, im saying that you shouldnt artificially spread out that effort in illogical ways just to get people to keep playing. Make the effort required logical to the task, instead of logical to how long you want them to play.

Exactly. Absolutely nothing is wrong with getting gear quickly. People like these are the same as those 1%ers we keep seeing in these forums asking for raiding constantly so they can prance around the city and try to make everyone else feel envious.

Karma is plenty of effort, it’s a quick easy solid fix, they can do it in no time for Ascended and they know it but the gold buying is too good.

tigirius.9014:

Karma is plenty of effort, it’s a quick easy solid fix, they can do it in no time for Ascended and they know it but the gold buying is too good.

Well, there’s one issue – if the Karma purchase is too low, then why bother buying Exotics like the Temple Armor if you can just buy your way into Ascended by grinding Karma another day?

And yes, we are talking about replacing grinding Gold for grinding Karma.

Bahlol.6125:

Anet did NOT say “the game has NO grind at all” they know there is ( they made the game. lol) however, they said you don’t have to do it.

I did not read the whole thing but here are my thoughts on this topic in general:
the reason they took WvW map completion from the 100% world completion is because many servers are stuck vs way stronger servers, and never get a chance to do the WvW map completion, so that’s not something they are changing about the ‘Grind’ in the game rather its a fix for a problem.

take away the grind and make the game grind free!, everyone get dungeon master because they played the dungeon once and just for playing the game for 100 hours lets give you a legendary(that a grind for hours though) and lets not reward players who played the game days in and days out and invested many hours of game play and make em just like everyone who played the game for 3 days and quit, no more special skins for fractal grinders who played them for 100’s of hours to get that lame underwater skin that no one ever see and make it once you play an underwater fractal you automatically get the skin, and once you finish all fractals you get the fractal tonic that only a hand full of players have ATM, and once you kill a player in WvW you get the “ultimate dominator” title and kill a player in PvP and get dragon rank and finisher, I think you know where im going with this.
if you don’t want a ‘grind’ in a game maybe you should be playing a single player game not an MMORPG

You lost me at I did not read the OP but I am going to give me unfounded opinion on the topic title.

The overall issue is that Anet like many companies before them have embraced the Everquest methodology that WoW refined. That being “Stupidly hard, almost completely impossible, equates to more fun”.

People like to have a sense of achievement. They like to feel like they have accomplished something. Most people do not mind if that something takes a bit of time.

I like the example of world completion, the first time you do it you get a rush of joy at the accomplishment you did it, celebrate party time come on… however, after doing it 8 times on 8 different characters that sense of accomplishment is greatly diminished and the only reason you are doing it is for the minor rewards. Did you have to do it on all 8 characters? No. Did anyone force you to do it? No. Was it a grind and boring as hell? Yes. Was the minor rewards worth it? Maybe, clearly to you they were as you put yourself through that grind.

Now take into consideration Arah and Dungeon Completion. This dungeon is so miserably difficult that no one accept the uber elites even touch the thing. Which makes it a considerable chunk of content that is basically wasted on the majority of the player base because they don’t visit it. Even asking in guild chat if anyone would like to take a crack at Arah is a an immediate episode of chuckles and yeah rights and get out of here you fool. Personally I consider the entire dungeon of Arah a complete fail on the game designers part. However, with that I also specially mentioned this as a perfect example of being able to get the skins from Arah in a completely different way then dealing with a ridiculously stupidly hard dungeon, primarily the PVP reward tracks. Okay I like pvp I find it fun, and look I can now get the Arah skins without even setting foot in the place even better. I understand this doesn’t work for everyone but I think this is a good example of going in the right direction to make things seem to be less of a grind. I know I have to unlock the things on the reward track which is a grind but at least I am having fun while I am doing it.

That is what gaming is about right? Having fun? I think a lot of people are forgetting that. And every thing in the game that requires a grind optional or otherwise is a giant huge monotonous fun sucker. Tedious does not = fun.