Guild Wars 2

Kain Francois.4328:

Am I the only one who wishes to see this play out before complaining? How many people even did a new guild mission yet?

I’m guessing the ones that can actually afford them.

From what I understand, anet wants this to be a longterm goal. There is nothing stopping guilds from pooling together gold or simply saving up influence.

Each guild member gets 20+ Influence for being in the same party and doing the same event. While that sounds small, consider the fact even small guilds can have a decent amount of people, and just the sheer fact virtually everything you do in the game rewards influence. For example are dungeon completions. If you have 3 guildies in a group, you each get 100 influence.

Each member can also donate a small sum of money to convert into influence. 60g= 30,000 influence. While that certainly seems like a lot of money, we should reflect back to Guild Wars 1 when a skill trainer in a guild hall cost 100k as well. They are long-term goals and not necessary.

Kain Francois.4328:

Am I the only one who wishes to see this play out before complaining? How many people even did a new guild mission yet?

Errrm I think thats the point, many of us wont be able to… unless we gatecrash an event being run by another guild and then get a few copper for or efforts…..

Kain Francois.4328:

From what I understand, anet wants this to be a longterm goal. There is nothing stopping guilds from pooling together gold or simply saving up influence.

Each guild member gets 20+ Influence for being in the same party and doing the same event. While that sounds small, consider the fact even small guilds can have a decent amount of people, and jus the sheet fact virtually everything you do in the game rewards influence. For example are dungeon completions. If you have 3 guildies in a group, you each get 100 influence.

Each member can also donate a small sum of money to convert into influence. 60g= 30,000 influence. While that certainly seems like a lot of money, we should reflect back to Guild Wars 1 when a skill trainer in a guild hall cost 100k as well. They are long-term goals and not necessary.

What is the point of designing new content and systems if all you have to do is buy it from a vendor… kinda poor game design if you ask me.. and then what you unlock it and find you need to try and beg 3,5,7,10 others to come help for very little retunr.. cant see that being too popular when they might as well be running it themselves for their own guilds…

People are not complaining about ‘challenge.’ That seems pretty obvious at this point – I don’t really think it needs more explanation.

Heijincks.9267:

Kain Francois.4328:

Am I the only one who wishes to see this play out before complaining? How many people even did a new guild mission yet?

I bet within two weeks most of these complaints will become irrelevant. Forums are mostly filled with doomsayers anyway.

I am not a doomsayer-the game will be fine as long as people are not griefed enough to leave (which I assume some may do.) But you gotta question how this will help GW2 in any shape or form, and it does risk more people leaving than otherwise, to be honest with you.

For the good of the game, they should redo this stuff. Indeed, I suggest to developers to take the opportunity granted by this Guild Missions bug to re-assess how you are currently going about them-it’s better to admit to making a mistake and rectifying it, than claiming no mistake was ever done and alienating lots of players faithful to their smaller Guilds of friends.

Will I keep playing? Yes, but with the following proviso-I won’t even spend one bit of my Guild’s influence until I see a fairer implementation to the way the Guild Mission system currently works (much like I refused to acquire any Ascended gear until the stats I needed were made available.) I like the game of course, but was excited at the prospect of exploring new ways of enjoying the game TODAY, rather than months/years from now (yep, I know that I can “enjoy” the content already whenever somebody else activates it, but wouldn’t you just do any other Karma event instead? I was hoping for fun new ventures with my Guild, not just another dynamic event.)

(In all fairness, the system is evidently incomplete… which leads me to think that spending your own coin to enjoy the new content is not wise-at least not right now.)

missions aside, i think the bad idea is the ascended items. i mean what happened to accessibility? theres no alternative way to get those ascended earrings unlike the rings. by doing this everyone is just gonna flock to the biggest, most capable guilds, while smaller guilds will be struggling.

TL;DR
make an alternate way to get the ascended earrings.

(1) Small guilds should have been able to get access just as easily as larger guilds.
(2) Larger guilds are able to go through upgrades quicker than smaller guilds.
(3) Larger guilds have an easier time completing guild mission content.
(4) Larger guilds are technically the only ones able to access the high tiered guild missions.
Having Guild Missions as their own Guild Upgrade tab would have allowed the above to happen within a more sensible frame.

What is there to do for large PvE guilds? Not much that doesn’t get boring pretty fast. The problem stems from large PvE guilds in other MMOs where you have raid content for large raid groups. This mindset transfers with people from MMO to MMO.
Large group raiding, in my opinion, always been a problem with MMOs. To get anything cool you had to be a part of a large guild that most of the time required you to take part in raids – and the only way to get the cool stuff was to take part in raids. And then you had to roll for loot. This to me is the most boring part of an MMO (although loot rolling can be fun with friends). This is why I have enjoyed GW2 and this update is creating disparity. It is geared towards large PvE guilds and I fear that ANet is going to be catering to that type of playstyle in the future.

(Guild Wars is also missing a large part of what makes it name – Guild vs Guild.)

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just adding my few thoughts, love the game and will keep playing it, disappointed that I’ll never get to do some things like guild missions but that’s life. The game is not subscription based so no real reason to ragequit over stuff, will enjoy the parts I can and when I can’t there are other games.

I will add that herding people into very large guilds tend to backfire, the drama involved is the most common reason casual players stop playing MMO’s in my experience.

HELP! I wanna do guild missions, but it appears(maybe I’m mistaken) that my small 9 man guild(been playing since the game was released) is incapable of unlocking these features of the game for a very long time(or may not be able to).

I am confused, I logged in excited to look at the new guild mission feature and I see that all of them are only doable on upgrade tiers 5 or 6 of the upgrade categories which takes a ridiculous amount of guild influence to unlock. The closest one that we have is Art of War lvl 4 & that wasn’t too hard to achieve, but lvl 5 takes 20k influence which is probably close to the amount spent in total upgrades so far in the guild. Now this is only 1 type of guild missions that will unlock. It appears that unlocking them all is beyond any small guilds capability.

I then went back and looked at the feature preview because I remembered reading something about small guilds…. maybe someone can explain how this quote works….

“But what if my guild is super small?” you may say? Not to worry—all these missions take place in the persistent world, which gives you the ability to rally people from the surrounding countryside and maybe make some new friends in the process!"

SO HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS:

How does 1 small guild achieve the influence in the first place so they can do the missions?

Can you somehow do guild missions without being in a guild & get the commendations rewards?

Is the Guild Bounty Mission a WvW based mission? If not why is it in the Art of War category.

Poppyspy.5917:

SO HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS:

How does 1 small guild achieve the influence in the first place so they can do the missions?

Can you somehow do guild missions without being in a guild & get the commendations rewards?

Is the Guild Bounty Mission a WvW based mission? If not why is it in the Art of War category.

By Grinding aparantly

No you will NOT get the commendations unless it is your guilds mission!

No it is not WvW and why the first one is in AoW is one of the most puzzling parts of the universe!

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just because you call it a grind dose not mean it is a grind. Your calling things that do not fit the idea of a grind at all your simply using it as a buzz word.

Jski.6180:

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just because you call it a grind dose not mean it is a grind. Your calling things that do not fit the idea of a grind at all your simply using it as a buzz word.

Then explain to us your definition of grinding since this does not fit

Lisanna.9048:

Jski.6180:

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just because you call it a grind dose not mean it is a grind. Your calling things that do not fit the idea of a grind at all your simply using it as a buzz word.

Then explain to us your definition of grinding since this does not fit

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

Martin, Izzy, et al:

Firstoff, thank you for being willing to come out and have a serious discussion with your playerbase. That’s one of the major positives that has set ANet in another class compared to many of the games and developer experiences my guild and I have had over the past decade plus.

However, I’d just like to calmly and quietly drop a friendly reminder about incentive structures and their impact on the game environment, the social dynamics of the game world, and destructive consequences that can come from poorly designed incentive structures.

This is a long, analytical post. My goal in making it is to shed some light on structural problems and more importantly the perceptions of stakeholders that have been overlooked. My intent is to take both ANET and the players of this gaming community seriously not because I like hearing myself talk, but because I believe there’s something here that’s worth fighting for, and that we’re facing a problem that can’t be fixed without some in-depth analysis and thought.

I have been the GM of the same small guild of four IRL friends who have known each other for now over twenty years, including at least seven different MMOs over the past decade.

I also do real-life work on large scale incentive structure and policy design (hey, who says gamers can’t be smart, right?) and just wanted to quietly drop a couple of friendly warnings about some things I’m now observing ANet coming out and doing in this latest patch.

When you’re designing incentive structures for large groups of people in competitive environments, which all MMOs are, one of the things that it’s crucial to do is make sure several people on the design team are able to put on their “economist” hats and think about how the people interacting with that incentive structure are going to behave in order to narrowly maximize rewards for the absolutely lowest amount of effort possible. This is what folks will do; it’s common sense and basic policy design. At the same time, it’s also crucial to have people in the same room wearing their “equity and human dignity” hats and thinking about whether this min/maxing behavior is going to break anything: legal systems, social systems, etc. Finally, you also must have someone in the room with their eye on the bigger picture of what you’re trying to accomplish not just in terms of the narrow intervention, but its impact on the broader picture.

For the first time observing this game evolve, I’m concerned that all three of those sets of people were not present at the table.

In concrete terms, here is what I’m observing:

Problem One: This Mechanic Has Created Unfair-Feeling “Classes” of Guilds

The new “Guild Missions” system has been rolled out and advertised primarily, on ANet’s end, as a way to (a) allow guilds to be play-relevant, (b) allow large numbers of people to play together in organized, coherent ways, © provide a dump for large amounts of existing guild influence in large/wealthy guilds, and (d) provide a series of long-term goals for guilds generically to work for.

As a general design strategy, this looks clean and efficient, because it provides content for a missing chunk, creates long term goals, and allows people to play together.

Here’s the problem with this analysis: nobody put their “economist” cap on and considered what actual behaviors would result from this given reward-maximizing and absolute-effort-minimizing behavior. To summarize, here is what players will actually do as a result of this system, including the reasoning behind it:

(1) Players will attempt to access this new content as rapidly as possible. People play games to access content.

(2) Rapidly accessing the content will require large amounts of influence quickly.

(3) Because there is no per capita/per player check or mechanic baked into the system, there is an instant inequity created between large guilds (who have the influence bankroll to immediately begin researching and working on this content) compared to medium and particularly small guilds, including mine which consists of four players, which will not see that kind of influence for a very long time.

(4) This creates a blatant situation where some people are able to access content and some are not.

(5) This creates feelings of (i) anger over the unfairness, (ii) a sense that players need to choose between their friends and accessing content, (iii) a sense that small guilds are not acceptable, (iv) a sense that small guilds are not viable, leadin to (v) small guilds rapidly being emptied or broken up, (vi) and many players abandoning their guilds to join larger ones.

It is crucial for MMO developers to understand that their games live or die by access to content and the long-standing social interactions formed.

(post 1/4)

Unfortunately, a simple mechanic added to the game to foster feelings of guild cohesiveness, because it was not run past people with their “economist” hats on who could recognize that people can, will, and always have maximized rewards for absolute minimum effort and thought through what this means for their incentive structure design.

It’s crucial to understand that this is not a cynical argument; it’s a practical common-sense amoral point. Translated into the context of having fun in an MMO, it runs like this: "If another player can get access to the same content or accomplishment for less effort than me, or faster than me, or if it seems impossible that I will ever see it whereas others can by virtue of some random different variable like guild size will have access to it tomorrow, I feel like I’m a second-class citizen, that this isn’t fair, and that I’m not having fun. " It’s important to recognize that this is not just an entirely reasonable and valid sentinment, but that the fact it’s appearing means something in the macro-level structure of the game environment and its driving incentive structures has gone horribly wrong.

Summary:
- This mechanic has created a spectrum of guilds where the larger, the easier it is to access the content, and the smaller, the less easy it is to access the content.
- This feels like a “haves”/“have nots” system. This is not fun and it is not fair. Many people play MMOs to get away from dealing with this system in real life. It has no place in a fun game world.
- Many MMOs have died because developers have refused to deal with the “haves/have nots” problem in useful ways. Until this patch, GW2 did not have this problem.

- Practically, this is because of differences in guild size (how much influence can your guild create per week) compared to content unlock requirements (which are static across all guild sizes.)
- Players in small guilds are encouraged to leave small guilds and join large ones.
- Putting this pressure of “Do I want to be effective but leave my friends, or stick with my friends but be ineffective” is a burden that unfairly falls ONLY on players in small guilds.
- Players in large guilds do not have to make this tradeoff or feel constrained.
- There is no solution given existing game mechanics of this patch that reconciles the issue for small guilds without leaving them feel like they have LOST something (either their friends, or the ability to access content competitively).

It is crucial that someone in a position of power or influence understands that these are the perverse incentive structures that have been created.

Problem 2: Can small guilds even meaningfully DO the content?

It is unclear at this point whether a small guild like mine, consisting of four to five players, should we at some point that we estimate to be 4-6 months of fairly constant play down the line, be able to spawn the guild events… can we even complete them?

Right now, the perception is that not only are small guilds, like mine, barred from playing with the new content, but that even if we somehow manage to push through and gain access to spawning them (something that will take us months, whereas large guilds will be able to do starting within days)… is this a type of content that we can even access?

This is not just a problem endemic to my guild. It is a problem endemic to EVERY small guild.

It is crucial that ANet understand their mechanic is DEEPLY divisive in the community and creates a structural environment that is fiercely pushing for the destruction of small guilds, and far more valuably all of those relationships, because the entire gameplay incentive structure rewards participating in large guilds and punishes participation in small guilds.

It is crucial that someone in a position of power and influence near the development team working on these mechanics understand that the impact this is having is doing damage to the community where the spoken intent of the mechanic is to do the exact opposite.

+ Problem-Solving Goals and Potential Solutions: +

Before getting into potential solutions, it is crucial to understand both the problems and the goals that are to be accomplished by any proposed solutions. This seems trivial, but is a very common place where this kind of thing goes horrifically awry.

(post 2/4)

Jski.6180:

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

I think it’s more equivalent to saying that you would get mad at one part of a story because you would have to read the first part, then take an exorbitantly pointless long time piecing every page together of the second part before being able to read it.

Core problems:
(1) This mechanic has created a disparity between large and small guilds.
(2) This disparity is that large guilds have better, faster, easier access to large content.
(3) The consequence of the disparity is that there is extreme pressure on small guild players to leave their small guilds and join larger guilds.
(4) The practical effect of this disparity is that it creates an unfair and unfun tension within small guild players: they must either sacrifice their friends, their guild, or their ability to enjoy content as first-class players. (Options: (1) Have the entire guild merge into a larger guild, the small guild dies and the special relationships they have are diluted in the big guild, assuming they are all folded into one and can find one that suits their taste, culture, habits, language, environment… this can be a destructive process. (2) Splinter and join large guilds separately, losing the friendships. (3) Endure as a small guild with unequal access to content.)
(5) Players in large guilds, whose incentive maximizations are already satisfied, do not have this problem. They both do not have any incentive or structural reasons to understand why small guild players are “whining”, “qqing”, etc, and do not see any reason that the current system is wrong.
(6) It is uncertain that small guilds will even be able to complete their guild missions at all under any circumstances, or if so, that they will only be able to do so under reduced circumstances, effectively meaning small guilds are barred from guild content, or that small guilds are not legitimate/acceptable under ANet policy. If this is the case, it is EXTREMELY offensive to small guild players, like myself, who believe that our guilds while small are just as legitimate as large guilds.
(7) All of the above are destructive to many guilds and communities. In effect, this patch has done harm to the community that it sought to promote friendship and playing together within. It has had the opposite effect for many players.

Problem-Solving Goals:
(1) Erase disparity between large and small guilds.
(2) Find a way to lessen the disparity between how quickly large and small guilds can access content. (Use per capita math tools that track membership.)
(3) Reduce the pressure on small guild players to leave their guilds for larger guilds.
(4) Remove the tension that is placed solely on small guild players to choose between their friends and maintaining equitable access to content.
(5) The system is working fine for large guild players. Do NOT attack or drag down the large guild play experience. This is EXCELLENT! Instead, focus on AIDING small guild players by equalizing using per capita mechanics to bring them up to the level that large guilds have. Do not take action that will force a political backlash by satisfied large guild players.
(6) Ensure that small guilds are able to actually physically complete missions. Incorporate scaling to allow missions to be completed with few players when guilds are small. Small guilds include groups of 3, 4, and 5 players. Small guilds must be taken seriously, as they are a nontrivial portion of MMO guilds and are worthy of the same dignity and respect as any other guild in the game.
(7) Stop doing damage to the community by creating classes, wedges, and incentives that force some players to choose between content and friendships.

Specific Solutions:
(1) Implement a mathematical scaling system similar to level downranking to allow smaller guilds (measured per account) to have smaller influence requirements to gain access to new content. Obviously, this would need to be designed in a way to prevent exploiting by “everybody quit the guild, we’ll complete it fast, then have everyone pile back in again.” This would be even worse and would negatively impact large guilds. Have better returns to scale with large guilds so that there is an incentive for guilds to grow. Force the rate of benefit to be more favorable than the rate of scaling down, such that there will always be an economic incentive to be in a large guild, but not a prohibitively massive one. It needs to be a gentle push, like taking an 80 out into a level 20 zone, not like the current hard wall. This should also allow upward scaling so that large guilds have the ability to work towards large goals the same way that small guilds do as well. If the content lasts a week in some guilds and six months in others, neither section of players has benefitted. Unfortunately, now that many players in large guilds however expect access in time measured in days to weeks at most, converting this upward now for this content is dangerous. This scaling system should have been thought out in advance, and needs to be implemented in future content.

(post 3/4)

(2) Ensure that the ACTUAL guild missions are capable of down-scaling to small guilds (3, 4, 5 players) so that small guilds are actually physically able to complete the objectives. It’s okay to scale down rewards slightly so that there is an incentive for epic snowballing with dozens upon dozens of players, but do not create a “haves”/“have-nots” situation. Right now, the perception is that small guilds have NO ability to either access or complete the content.

(3) Immediately open strong, transparent dialogue that actually engages the real concerns of the community. It is crucial to accept that the way consumers will use the product will vary from how developers intended it. Ultimately, developer expectations that stay in Washington are irrelevant to the experience and dignity of players around the world who are having tremendously different experiences.

(4) Engage the community in a constructive, serious manner to seek input and solutions. Do not discount the community’s ideas because they are different from notions during development of “how things should pan out.” These are irrelevant. The customer experience is.

I sincerely hope that one or more persons in positions of influence or power within ANet will take the time to read through this analysis and consider its points seriously. I have made the decision to take the developers seriously. I hope that they will extend the same courtesy to their player base.

Best regards,

Matipzieu SilverSmash
GM of KyA since 2002
DAoC, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, RIFT, GW2

(post 4/4)

Jski.6180:

Lisanna.9048:

Jski.6180:

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just because you call it a grind dose not mean it is a grind. Your calling things that do not fit the idea of a grind at all your simply using it as a buzz word.

Then explain to us your definition of grinding since this does not fit

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.

So yes i did use it correctly

AlietteFaye.7316:

Jski.6180:

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

I think it’s more equivalent to saying that you would get mad at one part of a story because you would have to read the first part, then take an exorbitantly pointless long time piecing every page together of the second part before being able to read it.

No that would be calling every thing in the game up to the point of guild events “pointless long time piecing every page together.” See to get to the AoW level you must PLAY the game a odd idea right to think you got to play a game to play a game!

@Kane Fire Blade.7482
Sadly you did not use it that way your calling the fact of playing the game is a type of grind. Its this way because to get to the point of AoW is by means of playing the game to get the points. If you call playing the game or getting influence then every thing in this game AND other games are a type of grind heck even breathing to stay alive become defined as a grind.

Wow, that was a very comprehensive reply Matipzeiu. I hope it gets read.
I think my own small guild would just be happy with one guild mission handed out to us as a “Guild Weekly” and leave it at that. They know we are not going to get the higher stuff, ever, so why log back on?

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

Poppyspy.5917:

SO HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS:

How does 1 small guild achieve the influence in the first place so they can do the missions?

Can you somehow do guild missions without being in a guild & get the commendations rewards?

Is the Guild Bounty Mission a WvW based mission? If not why is it in the Art of War category.

By Grinding aparantly

No you will NOT get the commendations unless it is your guilds mission!

No it is not WvW and why the first one is in AoW is one of the most puzzling parts of the universe!

Disappointing… I myself would like to join an influence heavy established guild then. Can someone please recommend one to me. I am primarily interested in WvW end game, however I myself love to run anything to keep my end game Mesmer up to date in equipment. I am primarily interested in acquiring the ascended accessories slots for that character.

Any good guilds want a Mesmer that has:
4 sets of armor
condition tank
condition healing
power precision healing
glass cannon
400 Cooking/Artificer
140 some odd skill points and a bunch of Superior Siege already crafted that I love to use to bust up doors and walls really fast!

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

Jski.6180:

Lisanna.9048:

Jski.6180:

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just because you call it a grind dose not mean it is a grind. Your calling things that do not fit the idea of a grind at all your simply using it as a buzz word.

Then explain to us your definition of grinding since this does not fit

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.

So yes i did use it correctly

jski seems to be contradicting himself. In order to gain enough influence to be able to afford the upgrades what will players in small guilds have to do? thats right rinse and repeat the content that gives the most influence if they would like to have access to the new content before christmas

Lisanna.9048:

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

Jski.6180:

Lisanna.9048:

Jski.6180:

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

My Final Statement here since this is just going no were!

Why Was the First Guild mission type put in AoW it is seen as PvP guild content witch I agreed with PvP guilds got what they needed PvE guilds got what they needed. You now placed PvE content at the end of AoW it seems super stupid!

Small PvE Guilds are now being forced to GRIND to get this new content cause most would never have touched AoW upgrades before that being the case they need 75000 Influence to get the first Guild Mission type. My guild has a total of 100+ members 40+ active pulling an average of 900+ influence a day, We are a PvE Guild so never bothered wasting influence on AoW, Meaning that we wont unlock it for 90 days so 3 months. This is then pushing of all the upgrades that are any use for a guild.

Getting in new members to small guilds! This has now become harder as players are leaving small guilds to join large guilds that already have the influence to unlock most of the new content! So small guilds are getting smaller, Getting new members again even harder as now having to go out and find members that will join a guild that can’t already start doing guild missions, Would you join a guild now that could not?

So in nearly all cases for small guilds to move forward now so they can grow to become great guilds they need to grind, Oh wait didn’t Anet say they want Guild Wars 2 to have no grinding? That is right! In there manifesto for the game they said they wanted to get rid of grinding so why add it in now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY

This is there Manifesto go to 1:20 and you can see all about having content NOW and NO grind!

So why has it come this way grinding and the killing of small guilds?

Just because you call it a grind dose not mean it is a grind. Your calling things that do not fit the idea of a grind at all your simply using it as a buzz word.

Then explain to us your definition of grinding since this does not fit

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.

So yes i did use it correctly

jski seems to be contradicting himself. In order to gain enough influence to be able to afford the upgrades what will players in small guilds have to do? thats right rinse and repeat the content that gives the most influence if they would like to have access to the new content before christmas

yup its why i have given up hes only think large guilds not small guilds and this is were the problem lies! People are thinking in big guilds not small guilds!

Thanks, Matipzieu, for sharing your own perspective with the developers. I honestly hope they read your words with an open-mind. GW2 is a great game, and deserves better than a divided community (not to mention all the people that could stop playing altogether out of principle due to the current implementation of Guild Missions.) I feel bad for the Guild Mission team, but it’s important that they read your words and try to understand what you are trying to communicate above, in such a reasonable tone.

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Like I said, I must be either a moron or in need of different meds, because I don’t see an insurmountable problem.

I see, so it isn’t insurmountable. But… it IS a problem… and who wants to play a game that gives them more problems? If it is dull, grindy, and just not fun then our question is not “How difficult is it to overcome?” but “Why subject ourselves to this?”

I didn’t say it was a problem in that post.

Saying that you don’t see an “insurmountable problem” is conceding that it is a problem because otherwise you would just say you don’t see a “problem”.

And mincing words unnecessarily doesn’t make you right. You already got me to admit there was a problem later, so why why why why why why why do you keep beating on this?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I say it’s one now, but the question you pose is valid. “Why subject yourselves to this?” I ask myself that every time I click on my bookmark for the forum, you know . . . I know I will see mostly negativity and things that make me crack molars trying not to rage-post.

So why do I bother? In the hopes there’s this one interesting thing that gets my attention, that makes me smile. Something to make my day go a little bit better.

That’s why people play games even if they have to wade through some sewage to get to what they want to enjoy. It’s something to make their day go a little better.

Yup, that is what everyone wants in their game. Sewage. And we all want a White Knight in the forums to wade in, taste it, and tell us it is gravy. Or at least that it is possible to swim across without drowning — because you actually described it for what it is – sewage (although apparently sewage is not actually a problem after all). Thank you.

No, I swear . . .

. . . this is the sort of thing, right here, that makes me want to just plain quit altogether. I can’t make an analogy without it being flawed or the words being taken out of context and used directly.

I don’t care anymore about this whole matter. I really don’t. I wasn’t “white knighting” as I saw it by standing there going “it’s not out yet” or “there are ways around this”. It doesn’t stop people from lumping me in with people going “there’s no problem, there’s nothing wrong, everything is fine”.

Everything is not fine, everything is not awesome. Everything is also not terrible and horrible and an affront to decent people everywhere. I’ve thought I did a decent enough job of not jumping to hyperbole and being the blind defender people seem to want to paint me as.

I don’t like it, but I can get over it. I didn’t really like Ascended gear either, but I got over it after thinking about it for five minutes and going: “is this going to screw up the way I play?” and coming back with “no, not really”. Same here, and the guild I’m in is okay with getting to this stuff later than everyone else.

Nobody seems to think we have a right to exist right here in the middle of “it’s okay, we’ll deal with it” rather than “it’s awesome” and “it’s the ugliest crap ever”. And that’s really all there is to say from me:

“I like the update concept. It could have used some tweaks to cost perhaps, but it’s okay. We’ll deal with it as we find out more. Looking forward to giving it a run in a week.”

Kane Fire Blade.7482:

Jski.6180:

AlietteFaye.7316:

Jski.6180:

Grinding is running the same events over and over purely for leveling up and progression. This is not a true grind in that its something that leads up to progression now if your talking about running guild events over and over this is more true to the idea of a grind. Its like getting mad at part one of a story because you got to read it before you can get to part 2.

I think it’s more equivalent to saying that you would get mad at one part of a story because you would have to read the first part, then take an exorbitantly pointless long time piecing every page together of the second part before being able to read it.

No that would be calling every thing in the game up to the point of guild events “pointless long time piecing every page together.” See to get to the AoW level you must PLAY the game a odd idea right to think you got to play a game to play a game!

Yes while making it a grind for small PvE guilds as lvling up a tree that has no use all the way up till the end were you can open guild missions costing 75000 for one thing that really dose not fit the tree anyway so yes it a grind!

Ok lets go this point by point what YOUR problem is time you want to do these events and you want to do them now so by your view point you must buy or some how produce the income to get to AoW. And you can but YOU chose this type of grind because you can simply sit back and build up points by guess what PLAYING THE GAME.

@ Lisanna.9048
I find this point is true for you too its just issue of time that makes you “grind” this.

Now Anet could just simply removed the ability to “buy” the points for this then there would be no grind at all but i have a feeling you would be worst off because of it.

Matipzieu KyA.9613:

>A very long and informative post about what’s gone wrong<

Best regards,

Matipzieu SilverSmash
GM of KyA since 2002
DAoC, EQ2, WoW, LOTRO, RIFT, GW2

(post 4/4)

Discussion may be as well closed now. You killed it with one precise analysis of current situation, which answers absolutely everything. Well done, you handsome monster.

The Guild Missiosn just made this game way grindier than it needs to be… now you have to be in a large Guild to just hope to get these unlocked.. that’s a load of bull crap.
They should be unlocked for any and all Guilds end of story! Why are you making this game into such a HUGE freaking grind.

I’m not sure if this has been brought up in the last 14 pages of this, but it’s something that really stands out to me about this Guild Mission system versus the “old” game philosophy.
It was in the Manifesto video, and I believe detailed more in pre-release blogs/interviws. The discussion what is essentially the “having fun” part of the game compared to the “preparing to have fun” part of (other) games. This was largely about the open nature of Dynamic Events giving big, fun tasks all the time, but the 5-player party size for dungeons is another aspect of the same thing. Making it easier to just jump right into the fun part without hours of preparing to have fun.

Other MMOs have raids, which are notorious for taking hours to prepare, are planned days/weeks ahead of time, and people are expected to adhere to a schedule. Getting 5 people together is a fairly simple task, getting 30 (or more) is not, it’s the dull task of preparing to have fun.

Guild Missions violate this core principle at both ends.

The process of unlocking these missions, especially the influence, is a massive “preparation to have fun”. Sure, we get influence for a lot of the things we are already doing, but why make us wait to have fun with Guild Missions? We are stuck doing the same things we’ve already been doing for 6 months to unlock the new thing we want to do.

The preparation and planning of a Guild Mission, especially the higher tier ones, is going beyond what a 30-man raid would require. You need more players, and have to deal with splitting those players up into teams for different zones. It’s an absolute planning disaster. Getting the players organized/available all at once, and at a time when it can be inclusive to as much of your friends/guild as possible, is a chore.

Why go to do much trouble designing great dungeons that are made for 5 players, make a big deal about them not being raids that take hours to set up, and then do a 180 six months later and add in the exact thing you were avoiding?

War Siren.2346:

The Guild Missiosn just made this game way grindier than it needs to be… now you have to be in a large Guild to just hope to get these unlocked.. that’s a load of bull crap.
They should be unlocked for any and all Guilds end of story! Why are you making this game into such a HUGE freaking grind.

You know, I don’t agree with notion to unlock it for everyone. BUT

But neither I can understand why bounties couldn’t be unlocked for everyone, and all other types had their cost only in merits, without influence sink. It would make sense – you have a small guild and bounties, your small guild does bounties as best as they can = your guild unlocking new mission types without an inf grind, by participating in guild activity together.

This design of influence sink is so… bizzare. I can’t believe no one thought about an inevitable payoff during design process.

I was very excited to read about guild missions, but was at first nervous that the content would be out of reach of my super small guild. Then I saw Leah Rivera’s post on the Wiki on Feb. 21, 2013. This is what it says….

““But what if my guild is super small?” you may say? Not to worry—all these missions take place in the persistent world, which gives you the ability to rally people from the surrounding countryside and maybe make some new friends in the process!”

WOW…..She said SUPER SMALL!!!! WE ARE SUPER SMALL!!!! Me, my wife, brother, close friend and his brother….how much more super small can you get? Is there anyone in a guild of 4, 3, or 2? Are we the record holding small guild???? Wait, I digress….

Right…expectation setting…that is what this is all about. Leah, our friendly representative of the Guild Content team just set an EXPECTATION with me, that SUPER SMALL guilds can take part in this system…..that SUPER SMALL guilds can enjoy this content….

WOOOOHOOOOO We will have something new to do other than dungeons, which we can’t really do anyway cause we are so small and between work and kids and LIFE the times we are all on AT THE SAME TIME is RARE….WOOOHOOOOO

Oh…wait, what’s that you say? Research X to tier what? That’s more than 20,000 rep! I guess that expectation was all fluff. Leah, this feels like a betrayal.

Proper expectation setting would have been more like this:

“But what if my guild is super small?” you may say? Well sorry, but if you are expecting to take part in the new Guild Mission content in a super small guild, think again. You will need a minimum of tier 5 or 6 in various guild research queues, so maybe you can take part in a year or two when the system is obsolete anyway."

Matipzieu KyA.9613:

Post deserving of it’s own thread

I really think that should have it’s own thread instead of being buried here, which would be a shame.

This is admittedly an edited copy of a post I put on another topic in the Guild section…but it pretty much sums up my personal opinions on it…along with a possible solution that I bounced around a few people.

As a small guild owner and dedicated player trying his best to keep his members interested in the game…I really dislike the structure of this guild mission system…

My guild is made up of mostly friends and friends of friends, who’s only desire is to play with people they know in a small/tight group. Sadly we have noticed that we are slowly the very surely running out of content to do, and a lot of them are going inactive. When I heard about the ideas of guild missions, I pretty much spammed all of them the good news, to which they were very excited to participate in and overall come back to the game. We were all ready tonight to play the hell out of this new feature, only to learn that it is currently (and will be for some time) a complete impossibility….

I’m very disappointed, my guild is very discouraged with the game in general, and most of all I feel like we were misinformed…

The current state of the guild mission system provides too steep a slope for smaller guilds to participate in this. I understand that a player must work in order to participate in premium content, which is a totally understandable concept, but it would take months of constant influence grinding (a very inconsistent system to begin with) to ever have a chance to unlock these missions with my smaller guild.

As a possible solution, why not lower certain tiers or types of missions to a lower upgrade ranking…have these missions reward the guild with merits AND influence? This new, constant source of influence, will allow smaller guilds like mine to be able to unlock the higher ranked missions over a shorter amount of time by constantly participating in the lower forms of these missions.

More NEW entertainment while we WORK to a higher ranking…best of both worlds.

Matipzieu KyA.9613 posts an erudite social science and game mechanic analysis.

Well done.

Wow, if the dev’s haven’t read Matipzieu KyA.9613’s lengthy posts they ought to!

Also semi-on topic – random guild missions info for people looking for it:
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/guides/basics/complete-guide-guild-missions

Vorch.2985:

bluewanders.5297:

Nobody is arguing that large guilds should not be given content for large guilds. I fully endorse that.

I also fully endorse large guilds having cool things they can guy.

What I do oppose is not being on equal footing on launch day…

Also… I oppose the idea that some rewards might ONLY be available when content made for 500 people is completed. Rewards should be based on expenditure, not the exact content completed. Meaning that a small guild could save up for that big reward if it wanted to. And I do realize we don’t even know much about what forms the rewards are going to take, this is purely in response to your previous question asking if larger guilds complete content for larger guilds they should earn rewards of better quality than a small guild can in no way complete on it’s own. Cost isn’t the issue… people are willing to save up… equality is the issue.

My 20 man guild should be on equal footing with EVERY guild in the game when the new content is released. If we don’t have enough influence to research that upgrade, so be it… but gating it in a tree we have no use for is kitten poor treatment. Making the upgrade cost tens of thousands of influence to research isn’t the issue either… if you want it to cost the same as getting all 5 tiers of AoW… I’m fine with that… as long as on patch day I have the same opportunity as every other guild in the game to research that upgrade.

We don’t appreciate being told we aren’t equal… that our only choice is to pay the tax, wait a few weeks, and bleed players….. or dissolve a guild we have pride in to join the collective and tattoo a number on our neck.

Correct me if I’m wrong. I do want to understand the problem.

One issue is NOT that it requires tier 5…it’s that it requires tier 5 Art of War, a tier you have not invested in.

You would be OK if it required tier 5 in the other trees because you already have invested influence in those.

I’m assuming you would also be ok if they made it require a completely separate and new tree, since everyone would start at the exact same point.

What you are NOT ok with is the fact that other guilds will be able to experience the content at a maximum of 16 days before you, assuming that you are starting at 0 AoW. This is because you would not be on equal footing on day 1 of the patch.

There should not have been a prerequisite based on existing Guild Trees. Arenanet have already said that most large guilds not only had full unlocks, but were sitting on a stockpile of influence. Well, guess what, many smaller guilds not only have no stockpile, but have had to be very careful where they put their points because it can take a month or more just to earn the points for a full tech tree branch.

The pre-req means zero to large guilds, but it’s a pretty big barrier to entry for small guilds, especially if they weren’t WvW oriented Guilds and thus wouldn’t, (and still don’t), have any need at all for Art of War.

It’s not just build time, for many small guilds it’s also earning the influence to unlock a tree that is USELESS to them. That’s the other issue, forcing guilds to unlock a tree that is only useful to WvW guilds. All the other trees are useful to all guilds, even WvW guilds. Either T5 in ANY tree should have fulfilled the pre-req, or there should have been no pre-req. Tying it to AoW just guaranteed it would be a burden to the majority of small guilds that actually have to be careful of where they spend their influence.

So, yes, all guilds should have started on equal footing, given that the new Guild Mission system has it’s own tiers of unlocks and influence sinks. If not, than any pre-req should have been minimized. The absolute worst thing to do is to make the tree that most small guilds save for last, if at all, as the prerequisite.

Thank you, Matipzieu! That was pretty amazing & stunningly in-depth.

Talk about guild merging, or folding a little guild into a large one for the sake of guild missions seems just silly to me. I’ve tried that in other mmos – we don’t lose our small guild, because our small guild is real life friends & family – but we do end up in an environment that isn’t suited to our needs, nor our initial reasons for playing together.

Some of us live far apart – we communicate in game often, & sometimes, with personal issues. It’s social – not chat room social, but sisters talking, far flung relatives checking in.

When I’ve been a part of large guilds, there’s usually some core element, generally founders, of people who also know each other irl. Many of them expanded just to see content or raid. I’m never terribly interested in their personal chatter, any more than I’d expect them to want to listen to my sister & I talking about our dogs.

Small guilds are small for a reason. The option of ‘join a larger guild’ is no option at all.

Guild Missions sound fun – it gives us something more dynamic to do rather than leveling a new character, or running the same instance over & over. (I’m pretty much leveled out by now – I have the characters I want maxed, & I have most of the gear I want – dynamic missions were very exciting.)

This is a weird direction. Watching that old promo is actually very sad – being shoved into a ‘join a big guild or quit’ scenario is not what I envisioned back then.

For those guilds that are too small and thus unable to play Guild Missions, please read this post.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/guilds/guilds/Guilds-too-small-for-missions/first#post1522331

Such an amazing oversight, I’m still stunned from it.

Gate is too high with nothing for people to do right away.

People don’t like to be teased, in fact it really ticks them off (not me, i’m perty chill, more disappointed then anything else). This content is clearly for the top 10-25% of players.. leaving a massive group with still very little to do.

Arenanet: “Hey we have some cool stuff coming out… oh wait.. you can’t do it for 5, 10 to 20+ weeks from now… but we added it.”

People have very little to do now & have 4-5 chars at max while waiting for new content and then you all gated it too high! Now its just a Gold/Daily event grind until guilds can gather 60 gold+ or 30k/50k more influence. Thats no fun.

This could of been a home run if you put some things for all guilds to do at lower tiers levels as well as higher. Even minor things that helped guilds earn influence to reach higher levels.

Love your game, but not including a huge bulk of your player base was unwise & a huge let down. This was gonna be a call to my members to return to GW2, but now its a stall point again.

You all can still fix it though and I hope you all do, quickly.

• Lord Kismet*
  Kismet, Ring of Destiny
  http://gw2.kismetbp.com
  11 years of fun & teamwork together

Also another point:

What could have avoided all of this?
Full disclosure of the system BEFORE release…

Before today, the only official description of the guild mission system was the DevBlog post made by Leah Rivera, which made ZERO mention of the unlock requirements around the missions. Imagine if it did though? People would have lost their minds (in a much more contained way) before the release of the patch. ANET would understand that their idea was not the greatest…and would have avoided now 707 posts (at the time of me posting this) of negative feedback, and general discouragement across many players.

Hopefully ANET will understand that…yes, you should hype up your upcoming content with a small trickle of information…but their are certain ideas that you should probably run past us before you put them into effect. Could avoid a lot of grief.

We are your proof readers, we will tell you if your making a mistake!

I think everyone who has a guild should be able to enjoy the Guild Missions on the same level regardless the size of the guild. I’m in a guild of less than 5 members who I know very well in real life. I want to enjoy Guild Missions on my guild without forcing me to add members or join larger guilds. Your would-be question “Why shouldn’t you just join a larger guild or invite more?” is perhaps the same as me questioning “Why do I see a lot of players with 5k achievements and having 1500+ hours of play time do not have a guild yet?”. Probably, each player has their own playstyles.

Again, I think Guild Missions should be there for everyone to enjoy without forcing them things they might not want to do.

Right now, it’s fine for me if I won’t be able to enjoy this. Sure, I’m gonna miss its fun and reward but I don’t think this will encourage me to join large guild or invite more people in my guild as those things are really outside my comfort zone.

EDIT: I still have an option to enjoy Guild Missions. Right now, the guild earns 200 influence a day. Without spending any gold, it would take at least 8 months for us to start a mission.

I think this is going to encourage the “leecher” class of player, especially since there is no hard number on guilds one can be a part of.

If small guilds manage to unlock a guild mission either through spending their money or through grinding events and dungeons like crazy (both very fun ways to do so, /sarcasm), will they be able to actually complete those missions? Will all the trouble to unlock a mission in the far future even worth the effort? Or we’ll still find it almost impossible to do those missions due to lack of many members online at scheduled time?

Will there be no other way to obtain the ascended accessories in future patch?

We were just wondering that, too. Assuming we can get the gold & the unlocks, are the bounty missions even do-able for a little guild? Some of them sound fun – but not if I have to drum up the equivalent of a 40 man raid.

I’m still amazed at all the new people who flocked to this thread, not that I’m surprised to be honest, I think the regular posters here was expecting it. Alot of members like myself was expressively against this patch when this post first popped up, we’ve even battled against arena-net themselves – literally risking our accounts in the process, this is truely how bad this patch is, and I guess we’ll see the ramifications of this patch over the next few weeks but honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if I see someone resign – after all, Jay Wilson made less mistakes on Diablo III…

I posted a message several weeks ago expressing concerns when ‘Guild Missions’ was on the agenda for a future patch, I expressed many valid concerns and even back then – clearly stated that with the current state of the game – introducing missions could destroy many guilds depending on how it was implemented, and honestly – I’m still shocked at the implementation myself, because it’s been implemented in the worst possible way. I should dig up and necro that post just to prove a point -

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Guild-Quest-Update-concerns-me/first#post1522994

<—- Almost never posts, because gamer forums can be pretty unpleasant places, but yup, this was upsetting enough to draw me out.

And has any one ran the event? I think its still messed up (pach days tend to be the worst days for new things) so all of this is base off of fears of the unknown. No one knows what the rewards are going to be if you run it with a guild that started it but at the same time not part of it. You can yell till your blue in the faces but your going to get no where with out the right info. all of this could be for nothing as far as you know.