Guild Wars 2

This started in another thread, where someone said to me that Guild Wars 2 has a gear treadmill, specifically stating that they’d never seen a definition of gear treadmill that said gear progression has to be ongoing.

Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.

Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.

What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.

In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

If legendary armor gets released, it better look freaking amazing

I’m not rolling a best in slot to look like a burlap sack

Especially medium armor

Legendary armour can only exist as racial armour and look good, this is a fact.
They better get off their lazy one for all attitude with this or it’s going to be a legendary disappointment.

I’m just afraid of the extremely dangerous slippery slope. What will happen once every locust has full ascended on the first of January 2014? It is very easy to see them clamoring for a tier2 ascended. And that’s the kicker … at no point has a.net said that the locust will be shafted.

Then, after tier 500 has become the norm for locust, and the 99% are still trying to get tier2, the game will be reset by introducing an arbitrary lvl 81.

I’m not saying this is going to happen, but we’re currently at an extremely uncomfortable point, where no one knows for sure what the future looks like gearwise.

The only statement thus far has been “no new ascended tier in 2013”. And that’s an extremely uncomfortable thing to know at this date (September 2013).

Merely a statement that no new tier will be added until 70% of the active playerbase has full ascended, coupled with a formal promise that level cap will never be raised is all we want.

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.

However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

Algreg.3629:

Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

I didn’t buy other games. I bought Guild Wars 2. (Ok, I have bought other games, but stopped playing them when they became more like jobs.) I bought GW2 because “You shouldn’t have to grind to get to the fun reward.” New gear tiers screw up WvW, especially when acquisition of said gear is so heavily slanted toward PvE. May I remind everyone that EQ Next isn’t even going to have levels, I think GW2 could survive just fine with its initially stated grind free gear system.

Namu.5712:

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.

However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

The implementation still makes it a treadmill. Just like every other game, every 3ish months, there’s new BiS gear to acquire. It doesn’t matter that it’s not a whole set each time, the fact is, the power plateau has been rising in GW2 at the same rate it does for every WoW clone on the market. Each jump in power is small compared to most games, but it still happens just as often, and what’s worse, there’s no harder content to go with said gear. The difference is only in the details.

Klawlyt.6507:

Algreg.3629:

Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

I didn’t buy other games. I bought Guild Wars 2. (Ok, I have bought other games, but stopped playing them when they became more like jobs.) I bought GW2 because “You shouldn’t have to grind to get to the fun reward.” New gear tiers screw up WvW, especially when acquisition of said gear is so heavily slanted toward PvE. May I remind everyone that EQ Next isn’t even going to have levels, I think GW2 could survive just fine with its initially stated grind free gear system.

beats me how you can possibly construe a “other games do it, so it is fine for GW2 to do it”-justification out of that line of mine. But you are welcome.

Algreg.3629:

beats me how you can possibly construe a “other games do it, so it is fine for GW2 to do it”-justification out of that line of mine. But you are welcome.

Sorry man. Actually, your post seemed pretty neutral, just thought I’d toss my 2 cents in there. If my 2 cents seemed very angry, it was at ANet and ascended gear, not you.

Klawlyt.6507:

Algreg.3629:

beats me how you can possibly construe a “other games do it, so it is fine for GW2 to do it”-justification out of that line of mine. But you are welcome.

Sorry man. Actually, your post seemed pretty neutral, just thought I’d toss my 2 cents in there. If my 2 cents seemed very angry, it was at ANet and ascended gear, not you.

no offense taken, was just a bit confusing :P

Namu.5712:

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (exotics) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond exotic.

However if once the full exotics is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

Here, fixed it for you.

Algreg.3629:

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Vayne.8563:

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

You’ve got a lot of faith. Prelaunch, it sounded like exotics were going to be the final gear plateau, at least until the level cap was raised (which ANet did tell us about before launch). 3 months into the game we get another tier of gear, and ANet basically explained it away with “well we never said there wouldn’t be a new tier of gear” and that they were “planning it long before launch”.

So either they were misleading in their perlaunch messaging (which is the one I believe), or they outright lied when ascended gear was introduced. Regardless, I can’t take “ascended will be the final tier” at face value. Maybe 3-6 months after ascended is all rolled out, it will be time to up the level cap. Then it’ll be a whole new grind of a different color.

Algreg.3629:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.

Vayne.8563:

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.

I´d say you are grossly exaggerating gear progression in other mmorpg. And still I do not understand your reasons for trusting Ascended will be the final tier. Can you name me one single good reason why this tier had to be introduced into the game past exotics beside the usual reasons mmorpg introduce new gear tiers? And please do not cite AR. That could have been a simple addition to other armors and jewelery just like the seer mechanic in GW1. Again, I am not bashing the game for having gear progression now, but I do not see any reason why not call a thing what it is.

Algreg.3629:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Have you play GW1? Do you realize that 7 years later and that game still cap at lv20 and no treadmill. I’m not saying it will never happen, I’m saying the chance of it ever happening are very slim.

Ascended gears will NOT be the final tier, since they said many times before that the legendarys will always have the same stat as the top tier ingame, another words when something “better” comes along legendarys will get buffed, again. And you can bet anything that those things will come.

Vayne.8563:

This started in another thread, where someone said to me that Guild Wars 2 has a gear treadmill, specifically stating that they’d never seen a definition of gear treadmill that said gear progression has to be ongoing.

Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.

Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.

What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.

In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

You forget the tiny fact that in order to get a legendary weapon you have to:

Either luck a precursor out from the Mystic Toilet or loot (and i think everyone and their dogs knows how “easy” it is) or grind a truckload of gold and buy that from a TP Fighter.

And then, you have to grind your butt off if you want to get the legendary before you get too old to hold a mouse.

Now that’s for ONE weapon… Think about it for SIX pieces of armor + other six trinkets…

Like this isn’t already Grind Wars 2…

Zplus.4217:

Ascended gears will NOT be the final tier, since they said many times before that the legendarys will always have the same stat as the top tier ingame, another words when something “better” comes along legendarys will get buffed, again. And you can bet anything that those things will come.

Probably new level cap will be first, and that will obsolete all gear you have….so you can do it all over….again

Armor may or may not come as a legendary armor box. Makes much more sense than crafting each part separately which requires you too many gifts of exploration.

Dikeido.8436:

Have you play GW1? Do you realize that 7 years later and that game still cap at lv20 and no treadmill. I’m not saying it will never happen, I’m saying the chance of it ever happening are very slim.

Don’t use GW1 as a comparison, they have almost nothing in common anymore.

Algreg.3629:

Vayne.8563:

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.

I´d say you are grossly exaggerating gear progression in other mmorpg. And still I do not understand your reasons for trusting Ascended will be the final tier. Can you name me one single good reason why this tier had to be introduced into the game past exotics beside the usual reasons mmorpg introduce new gear tiers? And please do not cite AR. That could have been a simple addition to other armors and jewelery just like the seer mechanic in GW1. Again, I am not bashing the game for having gear progression now, but I do not see any reason why not call a thing what it is.

Two things. First, Anet said this was always intended, but they ran out of time before launch to get it into the game. You could say they were lying if you want, but I’m not so sure.

There usually is a tier of gear that takes a bit longer to get in most games. There was too big a game between legendaries and exotics for me to believe another tier wasn’t intended at that point.

Secondly, Anet has mentioned in their blog post about the future of moving to horizontal progression with more skills and different weapons for each profession.

I think everyone agrees that people need to feel like they’re making progression. In Guild Wars 1 it was done through skills instead of gear, but you still felt like you were making progress…and each time a new expansion game out, it came with new skills. And some of those skills raised the power level quite substantially (I’m looking at you pain inverter).

There wasn’t enough in Guild Wars 2 to work with. Anet needed a “quick fix” and they did this. But I don’t believe they ever really meant to continue it. It’s there to keep people playing. They now have other ways to keep people playing.

All they’re doing now is finishing the tier they started. Beyond a feeling from what’s been said I have no evidence…but neither does anyone else.

And most games take a whole lot less than a year to introduce an entire tier of gear.

Vayne.8563:

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.
[/quote]

It may only be a single tier of gear, but they’ve released it incrementally. Therefore, the game has a new power plateau roughly every 3 months, just like WoW et al. Granted, each new plateau is close to the last, relative to most other MMO’s, but it’s still been changing as often as a traditional MMO. You still need to hop back on the treadmill every 3ish months. And unlike most MMO’s there’s no quick way to grab the older bits. Usually when new dungeons/raids come out, the old ones get softened up a bit, and the number of runs required to gear up is lowered. When weapons are added tomorrow, rings will likely still require a month’s worth of laurals each. It might be a horse of a different color, but it’s still a horse.

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

Oh, you mean like how they used the term ‘grind’ in the Manifesto to mean something besides ‘grind’, eh? Heh.

Here’s the thing, though: why do we need Ascended Gear and the higher stats it offers in the game, given the game’s current level of difficulty, unless the devs intend to increase that level of difficulty? Which seems to be (which does not mean ‘definitely is’) happening, maybe (which does not mean ‘for sure’), based on what I’ve been reading about Tequatl. So if the difficulty is getting a bump (even if not necessarily everywhere) and Ascended Gear is meant to help us meet that new level of difficulty, won’t it put us right where we were before the ‘escalator’ took us up that step? Wouldn’t that step up have been rendered (and revealed, to the discerning eye, as) superfluous?

And then what? Won’t the same ‘dedicated players’ for whom the devs claim they made Ascended Gear be in the first place be in precisely the same position they were before they got Ascended Gear, and therefore in need of further ‘reward’ for their dedication, lest they (gasp!) depart?

On the other hand, if the level of difficulty in the game isn’t going up, why the heck to we need Ascended Gear and the higher stats it offers at all? What purpose is it meant to serve?

I’ll tell you what purpose I think it serves, and what I think they’re actually doing here with Ascended Gear (and Living Story), by way of metaphor: they know this house is in need of work, they know it needs new rooms and maybe a nice screened-in back porch and central air and indoor plumbing, but instead of doing anything to truly fix it up, they’re just painting over the warped and rotting exterior wood. There! Good as new! And a happy new color sure to please everyone in the neighborhood! Aren’t we the best? Heck, yeah!

Standard disclaimer: the opinions presented in this post are the opinions of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone but the poster of these opinions.

I don’t really care if it a treadmill an escalator or a black hole- it is pointless, unfun and a pain in the behind.
I also don’t care if they claim they wanted it in by launch- the point is, it was not.
It was also never even mentioned or hinted at until they sprung it on us.

I look at this game that I love and some days I get really really worried.

We have Living Story (that i quite like actually) turning into a farm fest where people fail events on purpose.
We have another gear tier that is ruinously expensive as well as time gated.
We have people ignoring content to clump up and farm champs, while people who want to play the game has to struggle to do the content.

I have to wonder what are they thinking they are doing to the game.
They stated a big reveal at PAX- it came and went and nothing.

I would like to see the mini-games that was supposed to be in the game at launch, new skills and traits (yes I know they are coming) Story Development that actually impacts your character, new zones, new races, more DE’s in zones we have already, improvements to the core game, do something about Engi hobo sacks already, Guild management tolls, Player Housing, etc etc.

Those are things that matter to me- I got a gear whatever

Klawlyt.6507:

Vayne.8563:

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.

It may only be a single tier of gear, but they’ve released it incrementally. Therefore, the game has a new power plateau roughly every 3 months, just like WoW et al. Granted, each new plateau is close to the last, relative to most other MMO’s, but it’s still been changing as often as a traditional MMO. You still need to hop back on the treadmill every 3ish months. And unlike most MMO’s there’s no quick way to grab the older bits. Usually when new dungeons/raids come out, the old ones get softened up a bit, and the number of runs required to gear up is lowered. When weapons are added tomorrow, rings will likely still require a month’s worth of laurals each. It might be a horse of a different color, but it’s still a horse.[/quote]

There’s no quick easy way to grab older bits? Are we even playing the same game?

Ascended amulets for example require 30 laurels and originally laurels were only given with dailies and monthlies. But you can get an ascended amulet for 20 laurels and 250 badges of honor. If you had any achievement points worth speaking about, you should have badges of honor out the wazzu. Most people don’t even know what to do with them.

Doing guild missions takes a couple of weeks to get an ascended earring, but you can get them with laurels too (though it’s more expensive).

And money is easier to get/farm now than it ever has been. Anet is pretty much throwing money at anyone who wants to run some events.

I think most of these things are easier to get.

Basically Anet is giving people plenty of time to have gotten the previous stuff if they were at all interested.

And if you do fractals, even if you don’t do them that often, you certainly will have enough ascended rings for all your characters by now.

20 laurals is still not cheap. That’s still 20 days of dailies. And all of your are easily attainable… for the PvE crowd. Playing the way I want to play is playing WvW, and nat having to worry about who has BiS gear.

The only thing that really bothers me is that it will supposedly take ~2 weeks per weapon to make (so I heard), which is an absolutely ridiculous time gate. I can understand some sort of time gating, but 2 weeks per weapon is idiotic. I regularly play 4 characters. Adding up all the weapons I use on those, I get 15 weapons. Just gearing out the basics for my characters would then take me 30 weeks at minimum. That’s over 6 months, just to get a couple of weapons.

I know you don’t need ascended weapons, but for the love of Baphomet, there is a limit… The Ascended Amulets were already bad in the sense that you could ONLY get them through dailies, but if it turns out to be a minimum of 2 weeks per weapon, I’m gonna be kind of kitten ed…

I have no personal issue with ascended being added, but I can very much understand why people are annoyed about it. This is, depending on your interpretation, a reversal of a core principle in the game. The game already has too many tiers already – I think the lines between rare/exotic were already too blurred and ascended just complicates things for many. And the time gating (if true) just seems a bit of a kick to those with alts.

However, I’m quite happy with it and the fact it is being drip fed over the course of months. And of course there is the point ascended isn’t “needed” outside of FOTM anyway. Having completed most of the content I’m interested in, this gives me an extra goal to proceed with.

The killer for me would be if they added
a) a new tier
b) levels above 80.
The latter would be destructive as it would undo all the work taken to achieve the gear you already had and the circle would just continue. There is of course no indication either would happen, so for now I remain content (personally speaking).

@Vayne
“Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so."

Im imagining getting a legendary for all my characters that i play regularly (5 of them to be exact soon to be six) just to stay at the top tier and i cant see how its not a treadmill or at least a massive grind….

champ.7021:

@Vayne
“Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so."

Im imagining getting a legendary for all my characters that i play regularly (5 of them to be exact soon to be six) just to stay at the top tier and i cant see how its not a treadmill or at least a massive grind….

If you have a fat bank account its as easy as opening TP tab and mark “Legendary”

No grind or treadmill whatsoever

Theres a reason why those are tradable

MikaHR.1978:

If you have a fat bank account its as easy as opening TP tab and mark “Legendary”

No grind or treadmill whatsoever

Theres a reason why those are tradable

Help me fatten my bank account and ill agree with you on that

@Vayne – We can agree to disagree about the ascended gear being ‘planned’ all along but left behind at launch. However the legendary armor has been in the database since launch and you could look it up at any time.
I was always curious whether it would be a part of the game or whether it was an idea scrapped at launch. Recently another player asked this question and Colin came in and answered “not anytime soon”
Source:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Is-legendary-armor-coming-out/first

I really doubt the ascended being planned. There would have been at the very least, a trace of it in the db. And even forgoing this possibility, the fact it is has been a disjointed addition cast more doubt for me. If it was planned then they really have issues with implementation. Think of how exotics work and all the ways to get them via drops, crafting, karma, dungeon tokens, etc.

Implementing ascended items didn’t have to be a dump into the system but it certainly could have gone a lot smoother than it is. To me it feels like they are trying to squeeze it into a tight system and it isn’t fitting properly, it is causing economic havoc, it is causing undue stress on some players, and plain complicating processes and confusing players.

I have played since headstart. I have been critical on the forums but generally supportive. I don’t see the game flowing with its updates and stories being culminated. It reminds me of a book, being written by several authors and none are truly sharing their ideas. So the story and characters just become complicated and convoluted. Just my opinion. Hopefully I’ll be around to see it all come together both lore and community.

Vayne.8563:

Since the game has launched, in a single year, we’ve had exactly the addition of one tier of gear, which isn’t even finished rolling out yet. This is all a single tier.

In a traditional MMO, you’d have had three tiers by now. We’re only just getting weapons in a few days. All we’ve had is trinkets so far.

A single tier of gear does not a treadmill make.

You can’t go and say oh we have a necklace rings and a back piece and then count a weapon from the same tier as a new tier.

I don’t really think Anet wants to go down the gear grind route, and there is circumstantial evidence to back this up. They’re continuing ascended gear because they started ascended gear, but they’re also looking at horizontal progression through skills.

I’m not thinking Anet wants to keep coming out with new tiers of gear after ascended.

But at the same time we’ve had no assurance the gear threadmill isn’t going to continue after ascended.

I’m perfectly fine with the way ascended plays out right now but there hasn’t been a word on what’s happening after ascended. As a GW1 player, that concerns me greatly.

Will we ever see level 81?
Will we get a stat increase after ascended?

Those are questions that really matter. Without a very clear yes/no answer, the unrest will remain and no amount of double think is changing that. I simply can’t be as relaxed as you in the face of January 2014.

Just addressing your question in the post, yes there is a gear treadmill. Why?, gear treadmill in a game is anything where a new tier of armor is introduced into the game periodically. It has been made clear by Anet that they intend to do two things, introduce higher stat armor as the game goes and to introduce higher level caps (already your clear indication of their intention for a gear treadmill). Now what confuses people or what some people find is acceptable is that this gear treadmill is not as fast as some of your more famous mmos. Instead of taking weeks and months to become obselete it may take half a year to a year.

To be honest, I have nothing wrong with gear progression, in fact, i’m going to be playing a game with plenty of that very soon, but my real problem is how anet tries to accomodate for both genres of players (horizontal vs vertical) and this just kittens a lot of people off. The gear progressioners are getting statistically significant increase with their new tier but not big enough that there is a huge advantage. The problem with non gear progressioners now is that the gear isn’t weak enough that it’s impossible to kill someone with full ascended gear but every time you vs one, you’ll be at a disadvantage. Think of it as a handicap of 88 %

Also, this ascended gear is the info is right at the moment, will cost on average of 100+ g to craft. That is quite a bit of money for most people and in my opinion, is better spent towards your legendary goal rather than your ascended gear.

Here is the quote for their stance on gear and level progression:

“More generally, I hope we’ve been clear that GW2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like GW1 was. That’s why GW2 shipped with a higher level cap, and with a hard separation between PvE and PvP. In GW1 we never advanced the level cap through four campaigns/expansions. The game design didn’t allow for it. But GW2 was designed without those restrictions, and we’ve always expected that we will someday raise the level cap in GW2.”

Klawlyt.6507:

20 laurals is still not cheap. That’s still 20 days of dailies. And all of your are easily attainable… for the PvE crowd. Playing the way I want to play is playing WvW, and nat having to worry about who has BiS gear.

It’s 20 days of dailies, not counting the dailies you get from achievement chests, which don’t hurt either. I have over 160 laurels right now and I have amulets on at least four characters.

I’m not trying to undersell how long it takes to get laurels…but laurels aren’t hard to get at all. And I definitely think some people are trying to oversell how hard they are to get.

And if you happen to get a monthly (which some people get during the first week), you get an additional 10 laurels.

Again, it’s not nothing but it’s not a major undertaking either is my point. Dailies, monthlies and achievement point chests should make getting some ascended gear doable. Guild missions should cover your earrings at least.

Considering most of this stuff was introduced in November and it’s now September…people have had plenty of time to get the stuff if they wanted to the stuff.

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other thread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

Namu.5712:

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.

However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

Getting an Ascended weapon is about as grindy as getting a similar weapon in Linage 2… food for thought.

I had no issue with a Legendary being grindy as it was purely cosmetic and a lot of blokes did it just to look awesome, or because they wanted something to do, but now that both will carry better stats, its a treadmill in the traditional sense.

I skimmed through the thread so I don’t know if it’s been stated: the next “treadmill” will likely be infusions. Right now we have basic and fine, eventually they’ll probably release masterwork/rare and they’ll be hard to make(fine infusions are already expensive). It’s easy for Anet to do this and doesn’t upset the game as a level increase or new tier would.

JK Arrow.7102:

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.

My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.

But the situation at Anet has changed since ascended gear was released. Back then the game had very little stickiness. People played it and people walked away without a second thought. This clearly wasn’t Anet’s intention.

Now Anet sees people logging in more (based on something Colin said) due to the living story. So Anet has that stickiness…which means they don’t need infinite tiers of gear.

My guess is if they move forward with horizontal progression and the living story and those continue to draw people back to the game, Anet has no need for additional tiers of gear.

That’s not to say if these things stop working Anet won’t go back there.

I don’t need it. But when it came out, I’m pretty sure the game did.

Relentliss.2170:

Namu.5712:

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.

However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

Getting an Ascended weapon is about as grindy as getting a similar weapon in Linage 2… food for thought.

I had no issue with a Legendary being grindy as it was purely cosmetic and a lot of blokes did it just to look awesome, or because they wanted something to do, but now that both will carry better stats, its a treadmill in the traditional sense.

I think that the word treadmill was never designed to talk about how grindy getting something is or isn’t. That’s not what the treadmill referred to. A treadmill is something you get on but you don’t get off.

If Anet keeps introducing tiers of gear..if there’s no ceiling, this is indeed a treadmill. Something that’s grindy and takes a long time to get, no matter if it has higher stats or not doesn’t make it a treadmill.

It just makes it a grind.

There are always loopholes they can find to introduce more treadmill elements.

Even if they stick to the statement that legendary is always going to be the highest tier, they can still either introduce elements that bypass that: more slots that need to be filled, more infusions for example. My personal bet though is that they’ll simply raise the level cap and keep our old gear at 80.

I know it sounds like insinuating malicious intent, but at this point I can’t help but think they’ll leap at every chance to further “streamline” (i.e. dumb down), commercialize and destroy every trace of whats left of GW1.

Vayne.8563:

JK Arrow.7102:

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.

My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

My answer to that is … good riddance. I don’t mean any offence but such people make the game worse for people like me who play for fun. People like your son simply can’t be pleased on the long term, without killing fun for people like me. That makes the “good riddance” a practical thing. People who don’t like RTS games shouldn’t be playing StarCraft either.

There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.

In fact, it’s so easy that it’s become the lazy cop out in the industry. I personally believe the route with achievement break points and account stats is the superior one.

Vayne.8563:

Relentliss.2170:

Namu.5712:

Adding one tier of gear does not constitute a treadmill. It is merely a flight of stairs once you get to the top (ascended) your done. There is no infinite stair case chasing new tiers of gear beyond ascended.

However if once the full ascended is out and they come out with a new tier you can officially call it a treadmill.

Getting an Ascended weapon is about as grindy as getting a similar weapon in Linage 2… food for thought.

I had no issue with a Legendary being grindy as it was purely cosmetic and a lot of blokes did it just to look awesome, or because they wanted something to do, but now that both will carry better stats, its a treadmill in the traditional sense.

I think that the word treadmill was never designed to talk about how grindy getting something is or isn’t. That’s not what the treadmill referred to. A treadmill is something you get on but you don’t get off.

If Anet keeps introducing tiers of gear..if there’s no ceiling, this is indeed a treadmill. Something that’s grindy and takes a long time to get, no matter if it has higher stats or not doesn’t make it a treadmill.

It just makes it a grind.

Anet has to keep adding to its gear treadmill because its model for horizontal progression was pathetic at best. So it has creeped in an Ascended treadmill one piece at a time.

Now it might not meet your definition, but it sure met the definition of many of my guildies who were not happy about it. Most of which were long term GW1 players but will be shifting onto other games in the spring. So GJ Anet at losing loyal customers.

Wait is the whole point of this thread trying to prove that gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill but a gear grind. That doesnt make it any better….

Vayne.8563:

JK Arrow.7102:

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.

My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.

But the situation at Anet has changed since ascended gear was released. Back then the game had very little stickiness. People played it and people walked away without a second thought. This clearly wasn’t Anet’s intention.

Now Anet sees people logging in more (based on something Colin said) due to the living story. So Anet has that stickiness…which means they don’t need infinite tiers of gear.

My guess is if they move forward with horizontal progression and the living story and those continue to draw people back to the game, Anet has no need for additional tiers of gear.

That’s not to say if these things stop working Anet won’t go back there.

I don’t need it. But when it came out, I’m pretty sure the game did.

Thanks, I asked 2 questions because I had a hunch there might be different answers.

I also would have preferred there to be increased horizontal progression. This was one of the selling features of the game and one of the molds GW2 was trying to break.

That being said, I’m not certain why the decision was made to release a new tier of gear when that horizontal progression could have accomplished the same thing. Weapons like Mjolnir, Infinite Light, Foefire’s Essence, or Volcanus are prestige skins that people have to work towards. Yet they were no more powerful than other exotics. If all ascended does is create a long term goal for a certain group of players, that same outcome could have been achieved with much less public player outcry by releasing some great looking skins at the Exotic level.

Now that that legendary bow is better than it was before, does it make your son want to play more? I could be wrong but my guess is no.

marnick.4305:

Vayne.8563:

JK Arrow.7102:

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.

My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

My answer to that is … good riddance. I don’t mean any offence but such people make the game worse for people like me who play for fun. People like your son simply can’t be pleased on the long term, without killing fun for people like me. That makes the “good riddance” a practical thing. People who don’t like RTS games shouldn’t be playing StarCraft either.

There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.

In fact, it’s so easy that it’s become the lazy cop out in the industry. I personally believe the route with achievement break points and account stats is the superior one.

What if such people were the majority of the people? What if there weren’t enough players left for Anet to expand the game.

I’ve played a whole lot of MMOs that don’t resonate with me at all. And I don’t know a whole lot of businesses that say, you know let everyone walk out, the business we have is enough. That’s not the way big business works…and MMOs have become big business.

It’s very easy when the money being invested into the game isn’t ours. We know what we want in a game. But unlike Guild Wars 1 which had a staff of 50, Guild Wars 2 has a staff of 300, bigger headquarters and far more server expense.

I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.

champ.7021:

Wait is the whole point of this thread trying to prove that gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill but a gear grind. That doesnt make it any better….

It doesn’t make it better to you. It makes it a whole lot better to me.

See, the gear itself, to me, needs to be optional. I don’t need it. Case in point, I run characters with rares and exotics mixed, no ascended and I can do everything I want in the game. This hasn’t been true in any other MMO I’ve ever played. That’s the real difference.

In other MMOs not having BIS gear means not seeing content at all. In Guild Wars 2….not so much.