Guild Wars 2

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

Whenever my friends and I pick up a new MMO, I’m usually the healer/support class so I understand what you mean. But I knew going in that GW2 didn’t have the traditional trinity, so I’m getting used to the DPS thing. If you’re not enjoying yourself now though, you should probably start looking for another MMO. One thing that was stressed about GW2 was that they wanted to break away from those roles.

And with all the random groups that happen, it’s kinda nice NOT being screamed at for not healing a squishy who strayed too far from the safety of the tank. Or having to sit and wait for a DD/Tank/Healer. Or ending up with a DD/Tank/Healer who didn’t know what he was doing.

With hope some of the new content being cooked up breaks the mold and requires more than Zerker. Also would hope some new content requires staging in a fight. To get to a level of risk that you have to disengage and reengage would be far more immersible and fun.

I have a twink that’s a Boon Tank Healer and it’s fun to play. Too bad it’s not viable at level 80

DPS-PVE-Zerk da Dungeons

TANK-PVP-Camp the capture point

HEAL-WVW-The smaller zerg eats the bigger zerg

Knighthonor.4061:

Crossaber.8934:

Matryoshka.1607:

As great as this game is, I’ve just never enjoyed playing a DPS class. Even the classes that are more on the “support” side are still not really enough to quench that thirst to be the one helping your allies.

Is there any possibility at all that they will add healing or tank roles and make combat in the game reflect on that?

PS. Ritualist when?!

The game is great because they don’t have healer and tank.

I prefer they stay as is, though i don’t mind if healing become more appealing, but tank is definite “NO” to me.

Never enjoy any combats that require a tank.

I disagree. The game is great because it has no subs, and have dynamic events and gear tiers are not gating content.

the lack of trinity roles is not a great element of GW2.

The lack of trinity roles is not a great element for someone who cannot adjust their mindset to adapt the GW2 combat system. But indeed, it is the best element for someone who tired of the brain dead trinity combat mode.

I am all for active combat style like GW2, doesn’t matter what your gear is, as long as you got the skill to avoid dead, you are good to go.

Aetrion.8295:

Instead of working toward a system that moves us beyond forced party composition to a place where you can play whatever you want it’s always just a bunch of DPSers who never want to ask for a tank again trying to have a victory lap without realizing that they are becoming the thing that’s holding the game back at this point.

You can’t heal enemies to death.

You need to kill the enemies, and you need damage for it.
The more the better.
You don’t need healing. Why would anybody wants to sacrifice something needed for something not needed?

Yes, it is fixable. For example champions of norrath (~2004 hack’n slay) got no trinity. Selfheal (potion) is good enough. A cleric (healer) is a good melee class. Not a “fullhealer”. He is a classic frontliner, standing next to the warrior and smashing his mace into enemy skulls. But he got access to a instant aoe fullheal. Healing without sacrificing damage is good in GW2, too. Having to sacrifice damage for healing is bad and the reason why nobody wants a healer. But I don’t think Anet will remove healing power as a stat.

Aetrion.8295:

How exactly is anyone who enjoys going the full DPS route harmed by ideas that try to bring other play styles into the game in a way that doesn’t make anyone depend on tanks and healers?

I think many fear the classic trinity of a tank and some semi-afk-dps people. Such a gameplay sucks. I don’t think anybody is really asking for such a gameplay, but thats what some people are afraid of.
Thats imho the main problem. Its hard to understand each other, because everyone has a different experience. An only open world player does not know about the amount of teamwork and roles in a coordinated dungeon run. A dungeonplayer maybe does not care too much about too simple open world stuff which consists of a lot of 111 spam.
Some players know many other MMOs and can compare which elements are better in which game – others only know GW2.

From my point of view: GW2 has its fans. Bigger changes might cause some people to leave. GW2 is an old game. I don’t think we will see any changes. I think GW2 has very limited options and Anet can’t do anything. They will keep placing more, different shaped AOEs on the ground and thats it.

Healix.5819:

There will never be a dedicated tank or healing role in the game. That was one thing they simply wanted to avoid.

However, if they implement guild raids, the need for support oriented characters will likely be a requirement. You could bring full support characters or everyone could adjust their builds to be more supportive. I doubt there’ll ever be a need for a full defensive geared character however, since that only promotes poor play when there’s action combat. Taunt and kite, evades, blocks/etc will be how you “tank” in GW2.

That is straight up not true, Colin stated in POI that they WANT tank and healers in GW2. They never said they don’t want tank and healer.That’s quote.

I could definitely get behind a tank class.

Give them something like a trait that lowers their immediate power, but once combat begins, stacks a damage buff as their allies get injured and every X seconds in which they aren’t subject to a single target attack.

Or a class with a lot of strong channeled abilities, that will do a lot of damage if they’re not dealt with.

I’m in favour of the “Punish the enemy for ignoring you” tank over the “Do nothing, but have the enemies decide to focus you anyway” variety.

You can run Healer in this game already, if you wanted. There are builds for “healineer” etc. They are useful for helping new players through trickier fights — I have a friend who can keep everyone alive even through some amount of Agony. It’s not efficient in the least; she just has a lot of fun keeping everyone’s health pools at ~100%.

You can sort of tank in this game, if you wanted. That’s a lot less useful, since the current foe AI is so unintelligent, you can get them to do whatever you like usually.

Aside from that, the game is designed so that you don’t need the traditional trinity of healer/tank/DPS, since it’s faster (and imo more fun) if everyone is responsible for their own active defense, with proper support from each other.

If the OP is keen on playing a traditional healer, this game might not be a good choice for the long term.

I monked a lot in GW1, but I just don’t see how a dedicated healer would work in GW2. It’s not like you can click on a health bar and cast a heal spell.

Apolo.5942:

Healer may be, but with no tank to absorb the 1 hit kills the boss and mobs throw, its kind of pointless.

That comment doesnt make a whole lot of sense you know. I dont know any scenario where a full tank build get insta-killed by any boss, unless its an actual mechanic of the fight (which are often well announced and avoidable)

The problem isnt the damage, its the funky aggro. You can take it from mobs some times, but other times you cant. With no way to make mobs focus you its hard to truly tank. Add the fact that most attacks are AoE ans it can be a mess. Especially when your zerker backline rush a buffed keep lord and make 10 people go down in 1 second, compared to the tanky melee frontline that lost 30% and can heal it up passivly in 3 seconds.

i said this 3 years ago, and i will saying again.

GW2 combat is much closer to modern soldier concept.
You won’t find a soldier geared in full armor and stand upfront absorb damage. Their tactics is suppress and flank. Convert into GW2, suppressive fire is our CC, blind etc. Flanking is our dps.

You thought everyone in GW2 is dps? So as modern soldiers, every gun they used is the same lethal, that means the role of flank and suppressive is interchangable depends on the situation.

You said we need healer like modern soldier medic. I said yes but medic weapon supposed to be as lethal as everyone right? You won’t bring a doctor into the heat of a fire fight. So yes, GW2 does have healer but they are more like medic (well trained soldier but also have medic skill) rather than a hospital doctor the not even able to protect himself.

Thaddeus.4891:

It already exist : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLItHwWS_nY

Best exemple you can find. They are 3, one of them is a healing guardian and they still do fractal faster than most pugs. Not saying that it’s the best way to do it, but it’s an easier way to do it and the speed is still more than decent.

I am playing healing guardian in that video and I can concur that it might be not the fastest theoretical way of doing FOTM trios (for records and showing off purposes) but it definitely pays off on a long run because you minimize the risk of wiping and resetting encounter.

That team comp was theory-crafted as a farm comp, not as a record run comp. In my opinion it is important to distinguish these terms. Are you looking for consistent fast runs or you are OK with wiping for hours trying to achieve the best time possible?

On my channel I have a few videos showing full FOTM 50 runs with healing guardian and they all take about 30 min or less depending on roll (Cliffside and Mai Trin being the longest fractals). All those videos were taken back to back and just show consistent result that you may achieve using that strategy. I stopped making videos because we pretty much showed off all the tactics we use and there is nothing else to that.

On a side note: I do not think healing guardian is a good option for regular 5man dungeons just because with current damage multipliers bosses do not last long enough and dungeons basically come down to “how fast you can run or portal from point A to point B”.

Any type of healing really shines when
- fights actually last longer than 15sec
- there is unavoidable or hardly avoidable damage that you have to sustain
- there is a boss that you dont wanna kite around losing all your AoE damage
- there are some additional mechanics to the fight other than “kill it” (running hammer to hit the seal, invulnerability phases, dredge cage etc)

Crossaber.8934:

So yes, GW2 does have healer but they are more like medic (well trained soldier but also have medic skill) rather than a hospital doctor the not even able to protect himself.

Something like a “GW2 healer” – for example a fullzerk meta-ele blasting his waterfield – would in other games be described as a full-dps char. Other games also got blinds and other cc on dps roles. That doesn’t turn a dps role into a supporter.

Jockum.1385:

Crossaber.8934:

So yes, GW2 does have healer but they are more like medic (well trained soldier but also have medic skill) rather than a hospital doctor the not even able to protect himself.

Something like a “GW2 healer” – for example a fullzerk meta-ele blasting his waterfield – would in other games be described as a full-dps char. Other games also got blinds and other cc on dps roles. That doesn’t turn a dps role into a supporter.

That is why people need to step out of the trinity mind….

Doing damage is a base element for every player, because every player is a soldier, they are supposed to contribute by killing enemies. Besides killing, they are supposed more or less to bring some team support to the table.

Just like modern elite soldiers, special forces, they can flank, suppressive fire, first aid, decoy, infiltrate, snipe, breach depends on the situation.

There is no good reason why you shouldn’t be allowed to do damage by playing a character that raises everyone else’s damage instead of inflicting it themselves though.

Aetrion.8295:

There is no good reason why you shouldn’t be allowed to do damage by playing a character that raises everyone else’s damage instead of inflicting it themselves though.

Like a PS Warrior or a D/F Might stacking Ele?

None of those qualify as being support first, damage second. For that matter, when it comes to warriors maximum might share and maximum DPS are actually the exact same build.

That’s exactly why the system is such a joke to people who actually like playing support. All it is is a bunch of entitled DPSers insisting you’re not allowed to do anything better than them even if you went out of your way to spec for it.

Aetrion.8295:

None of those qualify as being support first, damage second. For that matter, when it comes to warriors maximum might share and maximum DPS are actually the exact same build.

No.

Crossaber.8934:

Doing damage is a base element for every player, because every player is a soldier, they are supposed to contribute by killing enemies.

Some small amount of support doesn’t turn your “soldier” into a medic.
If you enjoy playing a medic in BF you won’t enjoy CoD “but you got a smoke grenade”.

Other games got the same support elements GW2 offers. On their classic dps chars. Not on their supporters/healers. Trinity games got your “flank, suppressive fire, first aid, decoy, infiltrate, snipe”, too. On their dps chars.

Some people like being a supporter, others don’t. GW2 has nothing to offer for these people.
I pretty sure “no trinity” games are really old. Maybe not in MMOs, but in RPGs which got similar gameplay.
Trinity: dragon age, final fantasy, baldurs gate, breath of fire,… Non trinity: skyrim, zelda,…

btw: everyone is a “soldier” in GW2, yes. But healing power stat gives you the stats of a classic trinity fullhealer. Vita/toughnes of a classic trinity tank. Thats a huge design flaw. When everyone is a soldier, everyone should do similiar dps. Imho GW2 doesn’t need any stats on equip.

Aetrion.8295:

None of those qualify as being support first, damage second. For that matter, when it comes to warriors maximum might share and maximum DPS are actually the exact same build.

That’s exactly why the system is such a joke to people who actually like playing support. All it is is a bunch of entitled DPSers insisting you’re not allowed to do anything better than them even if you went out of your way to spec for it.

Actually if you know what Support means they both qualify as support first because they go out of the way to build for it instead of just doing damage. They are some of the better options for those who like playing support

Without the stats there wouldn’t be anything to keep people who like the idea of actually being able to distinguish themselves in a roleplaying game interested.

I mean let’s face it, this game has basically eliminated all actual character from your characters. Thousands of build options, yet nobody gets to be unique because it’s so easy to switch from one to the other that you’re always just expected to have whatever the meta is. The only thing you can’t switch on a whim is gear because it takes a significant amount of time to earn the various sets, and even here people don’t want to allow anyone to have a shred of uniqueness.

The whole point of busting up the trinity should be to allow people to play how they want. That’s not what you get with GW2 though. It’s more restrictive than ever. Pre-determined builds, everyone in the same gear, every character is just a blank slate for the meta. Flowing neatly into any mold isn’t freedom. Being allowed to have whatever shape you like is.

Jockum.1385:

Crossaber.8934:

Doing damage is a base element for every player, because every player is a soldier, they are supposed to contribute by killing enemies.

Some small amount of support doesn’t turn your “soldier” into a medic.
If you enjoy playing a medic in BF you won’t enjoy CoD “but you got a smoke grenade”.

Other games got the same support elements GW2 offers. On their classic dps chars. Not on their supporters/healers. Trinity games got your “flank, suppressive fire, first aid, decoy, infiltrate, snipe”, too. On their dps chars.

Some people like being a supporter, others don’t. GW2 has nothing to offer for these people.
I pretty sure “no trinity” games are really old. Maybe not in MMOs, but in RPGs which got similar gameplay.
Trinity: dragon age, final fantasy, baldurs gate, breath of fire,… Non trinity: skyrim, zelda,…

btw: everyone is a “soldier” in GW2, yes. But healing power stat gives you the stats of a classic trinity fullhealer. Vita/toughnes of a classic trinity tank. Thats a huge design flaw. When everyone is a soldier, everyone should do similiar dps. Imho GW2 doesn’t need any stats on equip.

Yet Healing Power is used extensively in numerous build in PVP and the same can be said about Vitality and Toughness. They are also being used in PVE too, to make runs smooth and easy mode (but slow), in PVE it’s a trade between easy and fast, in PVP it’s all about survival.

If the defensive stats are used so well in PVP then why do we need to change them and in doing so severely affect how PVP encounters work. Change the PVE mechanics instead to be more PVP-like and defensive stats will start to shine.

There is nothing wrong with the stats, as is very clear by how they are used in some parts of the game. It’s the PVE that have problems and according to the devs they are working on making PVE encounters better in HoT. We will see what they mean by that and if they are enough PVP-like to make defensive stats better.

maddoctor.2738:

They are also being used in PVE too, to make runs smooth and easy mode (but slow), in PVE it’s a trade between easy and fast, in PVP it’s all about survival.

Atm there are many dps checks in PVE. For example in grawl fractal grawls will spawn too fast for a low dps group.
Skills like aegis or blind support offensive equip way more than slower defensive equip – regeneration is better for defensive equip.
Skills like WoR stay up for 10-12 seconds, not for “50k damage dealt to an enemy”.
Enemy attacks are triggered by passed time, not by lost health.
Long recast skills which can be used only once in a fight profit from a short fight.
Icebow 5 can prevent 100% damage of a boss in a good group – in a low dps group its not able to keep the boss frozen for the whole fight.

We will see if Anet makes fights more challenging and defensive equip more helpful. I don’t think so, but we’ll see.

Well, you can play tank, but only with combination with DPS, Support or Control
Utilize defensive skills to mitigate damage and either DPS, Support or Control to fill in the hits that will hit through your defense. Although Support will benefit more from allies that assist you in DPS, and extra Support and Control.

And yes, PvE at this moment, is quite underwhelming, all vanilla maps, have foes that cannot exactly kill you in 1vs1 combat (I’m talking about dealing damage and not allowing you to stand and spam your skill set, which would be full berserker DPS with passive DPS boosts and not a single defense).
Support and Control have more uses in SsCove, Dry Top and Silverwastes, where foes are more capable and full DPS cannot keep themselves up indefinetely (meaning they’re more prone to getting downed and defeated)

ColinJ did post that they will be updating maps to contain properly designed mobs that offer proper combat scenarios, player base is assuming that it means vanilla maps and dungeons, except not the Starter maps.
Question is when are they doing it…

Hopefully when HoT is released, or later, but I dunno.

Aetrion.8295:

The whole point of busting up the trinity should be to allow people to play how they want. That’s not what you get with GW2 though. It’s more restrictive than ever. Pre-determined builds, everyone in the same gear, every character is just a blank slate for the meta. Flowing neatly into any mold isn’t freedom. Being allowed to have whatever shape you like is.

Tell me, what prevents you from completing ANY content, with whatever build and gear setup in this game ?

Jockum.1385:

Crossaber.8934:

Doing damage is a base element for every player, because every player is a soldier, they are supposed to contribute by killing enemies.

Some small amount of support doesn’t turn your “soldier” into a medic.
If you enjoy playing a medic in BF you won’t enjoy CoD “but you got a smoke grenade”.

Other games got the same support elements GW2 offers. On their classic dps chars. Not on their supporters/healers. Trinity games got your “flank, suppressive fire, first aid, decoy, infiltrate, snipe”, too. On their dps chars.

Some people like being a supporter, others don’t. GW2 has nothing to offer for these people.
I pretty sure “no trinity” games are really old. Maybe not in MMOs, but in RPGs which got similar gameplay.
Trinity: dragon age, final fantasy, baldurs gate, breath of fire,… Non trinity: skyrim, zelda,…

btw: everyone is a “soldier” in GW2, yes. But healing power stat gives you the stats of a classic trinity fullhealer. Vita/toughnes of a classic trinity tank. Thats a huge design flaw. When everyone is a soldier, everyone should do similiar dps. Imho GW2 doesn’t need any stats on equip.

Non sense, Playing BF game, as a full time medic myself, i enjoy rezzing teammate as much as i love to kill my enemies, being the best K/D ratio player on my team don’t automatic make me not a medic. The fact is, a medic got the same assault rifle as any as other assault player. Just like GW2, a supportive player can bring tool to aid allies while still able to deal decent damage.

Tell me how many players play full medic or engineer in BF with a pistol 24/7?

Aetrion.8295:

This whole “If you don’t want to spec for pure DPS above all else you’re in the wrong game” attitude is honestly what’s stopping this game from actually getting past the trinity.

Instead of working toward a system that moves us beyond forced party composition to a place where you can play whatever you want it’s always just a bunch of DPSers who never want to ask for a tank again trying to have a victory lap without realizing that they are becoming the thing that’s holding the game back at this point.

If ArenaNet doesn’t see that, yea, they are going to be the wrong game for a lot of people the second someone comes along who understands that you can’t just kill off half the RPG archetypes people enjoy because you don’t want to make an effort to make them compatible with a game that doesn’t force party compositions. Half way there just doesn’t cut when someone finally takes it all the way.

It’s sad that so many people don’t believe that this is the game that can actually make everyone happy.

How exactly is anyone who enjoys going the full DPS route harmed by ideas that try to bring other play styles into the game in a way that doesn’t make anyone depend on tanks and healers?

you repeat that over and over, but it does not get any truer. The roles of tanks and healers depend on a trinity setting. a tank is not someone who can take a lot of damage – a tank is someone who takes a lot of damage for OTHER people. A healer is not someone who can heal, he is someone who can heal OTHER people. You can create those now. But noone wants them in parties because both of them are suboptimal additions to your team. If you want those roles in your game, you have to change game mechanics into NEEDING them. And that is not something in the “uhm, you guys just don´t wanna me playing how I want to” department. That will tremendously and dramatically change the game experience for every player. This is really not hard to understand, sorry.

Jockum.1385:

Healing is only optinional, not required. Healing will never be good when you have to sacrifice damage for it. So: no, healing will never be good in GW2. Maybe unskilled healing on a fullzerk ele blasting his waterfields.

There are dozens of games with those boring roles. GW2 is better cause it is different.

There are also dozen of games without a trinity. Those games are called hack’n slays.
Basically a trinity game is the development of a game without roles. GW2 is a step back to the roots. Trinity supports/forces players more into teamplay. GW2 has very little teamplay, except in coordinated dungeonruns (in which also roles exist).

In GW1 you could easily bring npc healers. And monk, ele, ritu, necro and even derwish could take the role of being a healer. Without the need to buy expensive equip. No need to spend hours waiting, except maybe for some more organised stuff – but in GW2 we wait for guards etc. too.
GW2 has its own trinity. Not healing and tanking, but reflection, stealth, might stacking. No “glf healer” but “glf PS War”. I see no difference.

GLF PS war means they want a PS war- it doesn’t mean they can’t complete content without one.
Healers in the traditional sense are REQUIRED to complete content – that’s where the difference is.

Aetrion.8295:

Look, what I am trying to tell you is that some people really enjoy playing a support specialist character that sacrifices their ability to deal lots of damage for the ability to provide substantial bonuses to a group.

You are absolutely correct in saying that at this point there is no need to sacrifice damage to provide maximum support. However, that is exactly the issue people have. They want to be a support specialist. They want the option to sacrifice DPS to provide more powerful benefits to their group, not a game where if you sacrifice 80% of your DPS your support ability stays exactly the same.

And guild wars 2 is not the game for these people.
From day 1 GW2 was advertised as a game where everybody fights – you can’t opt out of you damage role because the game was designed from the get-go with the idea that we must all fight.

Opting out of damage is ridiculous when the game was built from the get-go with the idea that everyone will do damage and everyone will manage aggro and everyone will manage healing ( we all get a mandatory healing slot).

Aetrion.8295:

This whole “If you don’t want to spec for pure DPS above all else you’re in the wrong game” attitude is honestly what’s stopping this game from actually getting past the trinity.

Instead of working toward a system that moves us beyond forced party composition to a place where you can play whatever you want it’s always just a bunch of DPSers who never want to ask for a tank again trying to have a victory lap without realizing that they are becoming the thing that’s holding the game back at this point.

If ArenaNet doesn’t see that, yea, they are going to be the wrong game for a lot of people the second someone comes along who understands that you can’t just kill off half the RPG archetypes people enjoy because you don’t want to make an effort to make them compatible with a game that doesn’t force party compositions. Half way there just doesn’t cut when someone finally takes it all the way.

It’s sad that so many people don’t believe that this is the game that can actually make everyone happy.

How exactly is anyone who enjoys going the full DPS route harmed by ideas that try to bring other play styles into the game in a way that doesn’t make anyone depend on tanks and healers?

The way the game is set-up you CAN bring in tank-oriented and heal-oriented characters into the game and be viable. Not optimal.
The problem you’re facing is nobody cares about your roleplay dreams and simply wants to burn through the content as fast as possible – ergo full dps how you call it.

So in order to bring these roles in you must make them required – because you’re not going to convince hardcore farming players to “slow down” and give up on their rewards to satisfy people’s desires to tank through dungeons.

And nobody wants required roles.

If you want to tank – go full tank – find 4 people that enjoy that sort of thing and run together. Same goes for healer. You can role play all you want with people that want to play with you.
Don’t try to change the game for everyone else just because people don’t want to play with you.

Can people stop asking for the trinity already? This game is better than other game because it doesn’t have the trinity.

Apolo.5942:

Healer may be, but with no tank to absorb the 1 hit kills the boss and mobs throw, its kind of pointless.

It’s another item that pushes the game to a ‘pure damage meta’. When the game’s irritating OHKOs are so prevalent, there’s little point in stocking up on defensive stats. Players should be punished for mistakes, but OHKOs are terrible for game design if you want a player to iterate and learn.

Rauderi.8706:

Apolo.5942:

Healer may be, but with no tank to absorb the 1 hit kills the boss and mobs throw, its kind of pointless.

It’s another item that pushes the game to a ‘pure damage meta’. When the game’s irritating OHKOs are so prevalent, there’s little point in stocking up on defensive stats. Players should be punished for mistakes, but OHKOs are terrible for game design if you want a player to iterate and learn.

OHKOs exist because of the very slow mob attack speed. If their damage wasn’t so high then nobody would ever be challenged in PVE. Increasing mob attack has been suggested nearly since release as a method to make the game more challenging, reduce damage, increase attack speed, reduce hit points, add self-healing skills, make mobs more player-like and PVE can really be more challenging and demanding.

maddoctor.2738:

OHKOs exist because of the very slow mob attack speed. If their damage wasn’t so high then nobody would ever be challenged in PVE. Increasing mob attack has been suggested nearly since release as a method to make the game more challenging, reduce damage, increase attack speed, reduce hit points, add self-healing skills, make mobs more player-like and PVE can really be more challenging and demanding.

Totes on board for that, really. Mob attack speed is probably the number one thing we could have as a game-end push for more build diversity.
Having more mob variation would be a good one as well. Most one them have one or two specialties and autoattack, fairly lackluster with the occasional annoying-ability spam.

Aetrion.8295:

Without the stats there wouldn’t be anything to keep people who like the idea of actually being able to distinguish themselves in a roleplaying game interested.

I mean let’s face it, this game has basically eliminated all actual character from your characters. Thousands of build options, yet nobody gets to be unique because it’s so easy to switch from one to the other that you’re always just expected to have whatever the meta is. The only thing you can’t switch on a whim is gear because it takes a significant amount of time to earn the various sets, and even here people don’t want to allow anyone to have a shred of uniqueness.

The whole point of busting up the trinity should be to allow people to play how they want. That’s not what you get with GW2 though. It’s more restrictive than ever. Pre-determined builds, everyone in the same gear, every character is just a blank slate for the meta. Flowing neatly into any mold isn’t freedom. Being allowed to have whatever shape you like is.

The “Meta” can be a lot things though. GW2’s big problem is that PvE is just a game of simple math. Mob AI behavior is dumber then mud, and the encounter design is built to counter Tanks (high alpha damage with overwhelming DPS over time). Since the game is designed to have players lose by default, due to unsustainable defenses, its not surprising that “neutralizing enemies quickly” became the best strategy.

This problem doesn’t exist the same way in PvP, because killing the enemy isn’t the main objective. This allows high durability to be a viable tactic, making Bunker builds valuable to how the game mode works.

But this is reversed again in WvW, where overwhelming numbers can beat defenses through sheer attrition. This situation is enabled mainly through most skills being Cleave or AOE in nature, with our strongest damage skills all being wide area AOE. The pirate ship meta in WvW exemplifies this perfectly, as you just collectively wear down the opposition through AOE damage, with CCs being used to counter defensive actions.

The Meta isn’t the problem. Its simply the result of our attempts to work around the problems embedded in the game’s combat flow. To be perfectly honest, the combat style and build system are excellent….. but nothing else in the game tries to capitalize on it.

Haven’t you ever noticed how most of the skill balance happens around PvP, yet the biggest changes to PvE have all been related to map traversal? And in the one instance where they attempted to change encounter design through the Mordrem, it relied heavily on cheese CC spamming tactics rather then smarter encounter design? Individually the Mordrem concepts were actually good at making fighting them more dynamic…. but when stacked, they just turn into a mess of overwhelming AOE damage and stun locks.

And here is where we see the real root of the problem…. the game design works extremely well in a PvP setting. But there is only a small faction of the game designed to operate on those core principles. In order for any of this to change in PvE, the encounters have to be about less opposition, but at a higher difficulty curb. CCs are strong, and that has to be accounted for in the encounter designs. If you look at Orr, half of that philosophy is in play; but the other half copped out (due to time) and flooded the area with large number of trash mobs possessing strong CCs as a way to hinder movement. But because their AI as dumb as mud, we worked around this by learning and exploiting weak spots in the Aggro behavior.

Now think about how encounters and combat worked in GW1. AOEs were rare and difficult to use; so it was much more common to have a tank hold aggro, and focus fire groups down one by one. But as the skill library expanded, by the end of Nightfall we had a ton of AOE and Cleave skills at our disposal. We also had strong force multipliers from the Dervish, Rituralist, and Paragon professions, that enabled one player running support to effectively double the power of the entire team. But the intricacies don’t end there. Mesmers were always considered the odd ball class for farming, but the ultimate single target destroyer….. All because of how their skills were designed with single target focus. Yet they later evolved into an AOE hex spammer, stacking their generally weak AOEs into a compounding force of respectable damage. The only thing holding it back was the unreliable Mob behavior…. however, in PVP land those were effective at forcing players to shut down to avoid killing themselves.

Crossaber.8934:

Non sense, Playing BF game, as a full time medic myself, i enjoy rezzing teammate as much as i love to kill my enemies, being the best K/D ratio player on my team don’t automatic make me not a medic.

If you like rezzing and healing other players in BF, is having a smoke grenade in CoD enough support?
Rushing in with a shotgun throwing a smoke grenade is a bit different than playing a medic who usually tries not to be the first to die.
The amount of support GW2 offers is not enough for players who enjoy playing a supporter —>buy another game.
My GW1 warrior can bring more support than a GW2 guardian can. This warrior would be labeled “dps”.

Crossaber.8934:

The fact is, a medic got the same assault rifle as any as other assault player. Just like GW2, a supportive player can bring tool to aid allies while still able to deal decent damage.

Running cleric equip is more like giving the medic only a knive.

Harper.4173:

GLF PS war means they want a PS war- it doesn’t mean they can’t complete content without one.
Healers in the traditional sense are REQUIRED to complete content – that’s where the difference is.

In GW1 thats not true. Everyone could bring enough selfheal and no healer would be required. But this would cause a huge dps loss compared to 6 full dps chars and two healers (except for some special builds).

Jockum.1385:

Crossaber.8934:

Non sense, Playing BF game, as a full time medic myself, i enjoy rezzing teammate as much as i love to kill my enemies, being the best K/D ratio player on my team don’t automatic make me not a medic.

If you like rezzing and healing other players in BF, is having a smoke grenade in CoD enough support?
Rushing in with a shotgun throwing a smoke grenade is a bit different than playing a medic who usually tries not to be the first to die.
The amount of support GW2 offers is not enough for players who enjoy playing a supporter —>buy another game.
My GW1 warrior can bring more support than a GW2 guardian can. This warrior would be labeled “dps”.

Crossaber.8934:

The fact is, a medic got the same assault rifle as any as other assault player. Just like GW2, a supportive player can bring tool to aid allies while still able to deal decent damage.

Running cleric equip is more like giving the medic only a knive.

Harper.4173:

GLF PS war means they want a PS war- it doesn’t mean they can’t complete content without one.
Healers in the traditional sense are REQUIRED to complete content – that’s where the difference is.

In GW1 thats not true. Everyone could bring enough selfheal and no healer would be required. But this would cause a huge dps loss compared to 6 full dps chars and two healers (except for some special builds).

Self healing in GW1 requires heavy investment in healing traits, which means due to the limited amount you have that you can’t do anything else. If your Warrior has 12 points in Healing Prayers so his healing breeze and orison of healing can outheal mob damage you are NOT a DPS character anymore.

Yes, you would be a mix of a healer and dps. Which is usually not effective.
This is why I think a healer can be compared to roles like a PS-Warrior/mightstacking.
You don’t need mightstacking (or a healer in GW1), you’re not forced to bring a PS warrior or monk. But you want to bring some.
I was referring to harpers “you don’t have to bring a PS War. healers are required”. I didn’t want to say such a mix of heal and dps would be called dps char, you lose too much damage.

starlinvf.1358:

This problem doesn’t exist the same way in PvP, because killing the enemy isn’t the main objective. This allows high durability to be a viable tactic, making Bunker builds valuable to how the game mode works.

The arena based PvP is incredibly boring to me, because when it comes to arena based fights there are so many games that do it better because they do nothing else.

The WvW could be cool if it wasn’t so insanely broken. If you happen to be on a server where nobody does WvW then you just don’t get to unless you transfer to a server that does, and that means the servers that don’t have a lot of WvW going on never will.

Tanks and healers are in the game today and are a totally viable play style in every game mode.

Jockum.1385:

Crossaber.8934:

Non sense, Playing BF game, as a full time medic myself, i enjoy rezzing teammate as much as i love to kill my enemies, being the best K/D ratio player on my team don’t automatic make me not a medic.

If you like rezzing and healing other players in BF, is having a smoke grenade in CoD enough support?
Rushing in with a shotgun throwing a smoke grenade is a bit different than playing a medic who usually tries not to be the first to die.
The amount of support GW2 offers is not enough for players who enjoy playing a supporter —>buy another game.
My GW1 warrior can bring more support than a GW2 guardian can. This warrior would be labeled “dps”.

Crossaber.8934:

The fact is, a medic got the same assault rifle as any as other assault player. Just like GW2, a supportive player can bring tool to aid allies while still able to deal decent damage.

Running cleric equip is more like giving the medic only a knive.

Harper.4173:

GLF PS war means they want a PS war- it doesn’t mean they can’t complete content without one.
Healers in the traditional sense are REQUIRED to complete content – that’s where the difference is.

In GW1 thats not true. Everyone could bring enough selfheal and no healer would be required. But this would cause a huge dps loss compared to 6 full dps chars and two healers (except for some special builds).

Thats why i said i am a medic usually with highest K/D ratio, that means i kill, stay alive and rez my alllies A LOT.

I run my shout heal warrior with mostly berserker gear, mixed some celestial, i don’t think i want to use cleric with shout heal, really, well timed 1.3k heal is much better than random 2.5k heal, 30k 100B is MUCH better than 15k 100B.

Don’t you see people are asking for trinity? Trinity force healer to be the medic that bring a toothpick to battlefield, most stupid idea ever.

Nobody is asking for trinity, people just want other things than maximum damage to have a place in the game too.

Crossaber.8934:

Don’t you see people are asking for trinity? Trinity force healer to be the medic that bring a toothpick to battlefield, most stupid idea ever.

Most players seem to ask for a trinity because they want to get a different game experience as on a fulldps char. If you’re not doing coordinated dungeonruns everything feels very similar.

From my point of view:
A trinity healer does no damage but is good at healing.
A non trinity healer is good at doing damage and good at healing. This what a “GW2 healer” should also look like.
Now look at clerics gear: classic trinity equip. You deal no damage but get good healing. That’s imho a design flaw. It’s like taking the gun from a battlefield medic.
Such a medic would be bad in BF. And such a healer is usually bad in GW2.
There are ways to implement roles, make them useful. See BF where medics are accepted and useful.
Anet has tried to bring classic trinity healers into a non trinity game – and failed.
Champions of Norrath healer does comparable dps. A medic in BF does comparable “dps”. A GW2 healer does no damage. Which is the reasons why no one wants them in their groups. Healing is good and helpful in GW2. But the lost dps is usually not worth it.
The amount of support a fullzerk meta guard/ele offers is not enough to feel different from playing a fulldps role. It feels very similiar. Especially when you’re running some more casual cele/soldiers stuff and not a specialised fullzerk build (which need more support and teamwork than fullsoldiers).

Aetrion.8295:

Nobody is asking for trinity, people just want other things than maximum damage to have a place in the game too.

elliptical thread is elliptical.
To Anet: Fix forum search.

Jockum.1385:

Now look at clerics gear: classic trinity equip. You deal no damage but get good healing.

This unfortunately assumes Healing Power means a drop in the ocean compared to the base healing effects. 1500 healing power might get you +15 to +20% increase, depending on the skill.

And to get that, one must give up multiplicative growth in comparison. The only hope is that one’s Toughness rises to match, but Healing Power still lags behind.

Jockum.1385:

The amount of support a fullzerk meta guard/ele offers is not enough to feel different from playing a fulldps role. It feels very similiar. Especially when you’re running some more casual cele/soldiers stuff and not a specialised fullzerk build (which need more support and teamwork than fullsoldiers).

A character in full zerker gear is also a GW2 Healer if he is using skills that provide healing for his team. A character in full zerker in GW2 is also a full support if he provides lots of useful reflects for his team, or stealth, or blinds or even might stacking.

How exactly is Healing power (or vitality, or toughness for that matter) change how a class “feels” in play? If the Cleric character has the exact same skills, same weapon sets, same utilities and same elite, why in the world does changing from zerker to cleric “feel” different?

A Wall of Reflection is a skill that reflects projectiles, and it feels the same no matter your gear stats. Blasting might, blinds, Shadow Refugee, Guardian Mace 2, Healing Rain they have the exact same “feel” no matter the stats.

So why is it that a “Cleric” Guard would feel different enough, but a "Zerker Guard using the same skills is not?

No and good riddance, GW2 is better for not having a trinity.

Jockum.1385:

Yes, you would be a mix of a healer and dps. Which is usually not effective.
This is why I think a healer can be compared to roles like a PS-Warrior/mightstacking.
You don’t need mightstacking (or a healer in GW1), you’re not forced to bring a PS warrior or monk. But you want to bring some.
I was referring to harpers “you don’t have to bring a PS War. healers are required”. I didn’t want to say such a mix of heal and dps would be called dps char, you lose too much damage.

Let me just point out that a healer in GW1 was INFINITELY more effective than a PS warrior is in GW2.
You had to have a healer to be able to do at least half decent in GW1.
In GW2 you can pre-stack might before a fight and even if you don’t the lack of a PS warrior doesn’t completely cripple your party.

I played GW1 – a lot – I loved that game. You didn’t start doing content without a healer. Period.

I play GW2 a lot – I’ve rarely if ever seen groups not engage in content and wait around saying “gee if only we’d get a PS warrior to start our run already” – it just doesn’t happen.

The difference between the two is day and night really.

Aetrion.8295:

starlinvf.1358:

This problem doesn’t exist the same way in PvP, because killing the enemy isn’t the main objective. This allows high durability to be a viable tactic, making Bunker builds valuable to how the game mode works.

The arena based PvP is incredibly boring to me, because when it comes to arena based fights there are so many games that do it better because they do nothing else.

The WvW could be cool if it wasn’t so insanely broken. If you happen to be on a server where nobody does WvW then you just don’t get to unless you transfer to a server that does, and that means the servers that don’t have a lot of WvW going on never will.

WvW will always be “broken” because of :

1. Numbers – larger numbers almost always win. Not 100% of the times but a good 80%.

2.Out of game coordination – TS and Vent allow dedicated groups to be much more effective than players coordinating in-game with in-game means.

You can’t really fix either of these so WvW is what it is – on top of all its other issues.

PvP is fine – or was fine – before it got stale and we had the same game mode and same maps forever.
If they wanted to make this an Esport the chance has gone really – there’s no way now as I see it to bring it back. They just ignored it for too long.