Guild Wars 2

This post used to be a reference to another post. One more possible title of this thread was:

• ANet, Please Teach Your Players How to Play Your Game

This thread is not supposed to be inflammatory. It actually states the evident – a lot of players are too lazy to learn the basics of the game, including but not limited to:

• dodging
• consuming appropriate food
• consuming appropriate utilities
• possibilities of going outside the Queensdale train and world boss zergs

The recent whole-map events often require full-map participation, and the lack of skill of one part of players jeopardizes the experience of the other part of the players. Apart from design flaws, the lack of skill is regarded by players to be the most common reason of failure, and once these players dare to mention this fact, they’re claimed “selfish”, “elitists” et cetera et cetera.

This “lack of skill” is also evident to developers, and that’s why the 1500 citizens limit was lowered to 1200, and Knights got a 25% decrease in health. I counted the buffs once and was purely amazed at the fact that 50% of people who came to fight the knights didn’t eat a Scarlet potion, which always drops from bags and which is dirt cheap! More so, people do not get a coloured buff and do not dodge the pull even when you tell them several times it should/can be done.

So, my question is: what can ANet do to naturally teach players to dodge, to eat appropriate food, to set traits to their characters and so on?

My suggestions are:

• Introduce a required boss(es) that insta-kills you when you fail to dodge when NPC told you to.
• Introduce a required boss(es) that insta-kills you if you do not get a potion and nourishment from NPC which told you to, or a zone which kills you fast if you do not get a potion/nourishment “antidote”.

This can be done in first steps of personal story or at some point in LS and may be a way to teach people play the game in which their failure also means other players’ failure. Once that is done, maybe at least a part of players would understand that many players were annoyed with you not because they are elitists and require pink gear and inhuman skills, but because they are dead tired of failing because you didn’t even care to try your best at the game you’re playing with other people next to you despite their everyday attempts to tell you how to succeed and make everyone happy.

Update to the idea.

I would love to play a GW2 where people used consumables, and changed their weapons and utility skills to suit the content rather than loading up on signets and not even using them.

I’ve even tried to tell people to switch skills and weapons for the content they’re facing when they’re having trouble.

But all I get told is, “It isn’t that important,” or, “I’m not trying to be a pro.”

Oh. Okay…

Until ANet actually makes some punishing open-world content (generally excluding groups events, because group), I will just continue to be surrounded by half-achievers camping staff at max range, making Mark II Golem take 10 minutes, instead of the two minutes I could just solo it in.

This kind of boss already exist in the game. Its Kholer. He is clearly there to push people to learn how to dodge. But since it’s optional and have a really bad reward, nobody do it and nobody can learn from it.

What can anet do…. Well. I mean, it would be great if they could hold people’s hands. Say, go into twilight arbor and a little hint pops up “maybe a nightmare court potion would be good for this dungeon!” Get to the end boss, and say “reflections will keep the turrets from harming you!”.

Maybe there could be a learning mode like this, exactly the same as the explorable modes, except with little hello kitty hints like that.

Ps. I’m actually totally serious. I realize this might come off as sarcastic, but I know a lot of people could use a tutorial dungeon mode.

You can not easily make people better players and new players come to the game all the time essentially defeating the purpose.

I feel sorry for anyone that is truly bothered by other players lack of skill but you might as well learn to live with it as things are not going to ever change.

You can get through 99% of this game without realising you’re doing it. You can run any build, any class and succeed. PvE failure is impossible. Nobody has felt a need to grow or play better because of this. It’s why other games are becoming more and more appealing.

This game is so dumbed down…I mean streamlined and (some) people still can’t manage.

GW3 will be probably something like SAB, but more simplified so everyone can enjoy pressing 1 without having to press 1….so exciting!

Well, at least it hits the target group…

•Introduce a required boss(es) that insta-kills you if you do not get a potion and nourishment from NPC which told you to, or a zone which kills you fast if you do not get a potion/nourishment “antidote”.

As if the potions don’t already have enough effect on combat.
Making them mandatory by mechanical gimmicks wont teach anyone to use nourishment as anything but a means of overcoming said mechanics gimmick.

mmm I really see your point.

I am a casual player but the average player skill in this game boggles my mind.
People do not swap weapons, use consumables, use utilities properly- heck people don’t even use their weapon skills properly.

I have lost count on how many times I have seen Mesmers facehugging a boss twanging away on GS 1- or casting feedback on the one melee mob in a battle.

And make no mistake it is not new players- because in my experience at least genuinely new people ask questions and are eager to learn.

I hear Anet developed more comprehensive tutorials for the China release- I have good hope we will see those implemented.

I still don’t think that it is really an Anet problem though- the game is easy to pick up- you don’t have to master it to play most content – the skrit hits the fan when those same people show up at a fight that at least requires you to read map chat- never mind actually pay attention

The only character that I ever use food on is my condi sylvari. She’s not my main, but she’s the only one high up the fractals.
Besides fractals and perhaps arah there’s no content where you would absolutely need a damage buff. I bet that the only reason we even need a damage buff for the knights is because people have not figured out the perfect counter for them (and probably will not, because it’s temporary). What am I talking about? Look at Tequatl. I remember when Tequatl came out everybody demanded buff food and undead potions. Hell you could make quite a profit running Arah once, using the tickets to buy potions and selling them. They ended up being like 4 silver each. And those days we would barely make it even with buffs. And team speak. And perfect organization. Now? Drop into a server that’s used to it and you’ll see plenty of unbuffed people with pretty much nobody on teamspeak, hacking it away and killing it with 6 minutes or so to spare.
In fact I would claim that a lot of times both food and potions are completely useless. They are not required anywhere so you mights as well not bother getting them.

Lishtenbird.2814:

My suggestions are:

• Introduce a required boss(es) that insta-kills you when you fail to dodge when NPC told you to.
• Introduce a required boss(es) that insta-kills you if you do not get a potion and nourishment from NPC which told you to, or a zone which kills you fast if you do not get a potion/nourishment “antidote”.

Those are terrible suggestions! Requiring players to use a consumable to beat content is bad and annoying. Insta kills are also bad and annoying.

What the game needs, is a tutorial, and slowly increasing difficulty. The game needs to teach players the required skills naturally as they play through PVE. Players aren’t lazy, but the game designers made a design mistake by not coming up with a decent way to teach players essential combat strategy.

Currently almost all of open world PVE makes zero requirement regarding skill, but doesn’t teach anything either. Then there’s dungeons, which are a very steep increase in difficulty and mechanics, without teaching those mechanics first. Fractals is a bit more gradual, but I think a lot of players falsely assume that since Fractals aren’t accessibly until halfway into the game, that they are there for at a higher difficulty tier than dungeons.

Dafomen.7892:

GW3 will be probably something like SAB, but more simplified so everyone can enjoy pressing 1 without having to press 1….so exciting!

If there’s at least a Tribulation mode I’m all up for it.

I agree with Mirta on the consumable. I rarely used them except when I speed clear, WvW raid or do high level fractals.

The player skill and knowledge of the encounter is far far far far far more important.

Some common examples of noobs being noobs:
-I’m halfway through rezzing a downed ele and they mistform away
-There are several downed players nearby, along with numerous mobs nearby that die in seconds, and they don’t utilize the rally mechanics and instead hold ‘4’ for 30 seconds
-People who are dead and beg for a rez when there is a WP no more than 15 seconds away
-Guardians who farm with sceptre/shield
-Players who choose to go mine a node a few feet away while ignoring the half dozen of mobs who spawn in a farm event
-Players who knockback/push mobs after they get all clumped up together
-Players who build siege on outerwalls of a keep as soon as the gate comes down

I’m sure there are more examples that happen, just can’t think of any now.

And they all infuriate me.

This is because most of GW2’s open-world experience is too easy.

This game should have a better difficulty scaling, where each new map or each optional zone should slowly but steadily introduce more complex mechanics and dangerous encounters, but it barely does that. For this reason, it has educated its playerbase the wrong way, and now it’ll be a bit harder to invert that route, when LS chapters are temporary, while the easy stuff (which is most of the open world experience) is permament.

And yes, things can change. A more challenging game attracts better players, for instance, but regardless of that, the current playerbase is at the skill level it is, because they themselves adapted into what the game offers – aka, they put themselves into a confort zone that the game allows them to do – and rewards them for doing it.

The idea that some people have that “players will never get better” is completely wrong. Yes, not all players are meant to be, nor want to be, competitive hardcore players. But any human being has the ability to adapt into a new situation or improve upon, when they are educated to it and gain enough experience/ practice from it. Something that GW2 only started to attempt to recently.

For example, I’ll be the first to admit that I have never used a scarlet’s potion. In fact, I didn’t even remember that I had them in my inventory. In fact, I sometimes even forget that item consumables exist in this game, because I spent 99% of my gameplay experience without a single item consumable in my inventory. The game never convinced me that I should care about them, and most means to obtain them are highly unnappealing. Only WvW seems to be better teacher here, but I don’t play it much.

The issue here isn’t bad players – it’s bad design. If they started designing content which was more than zerg fests and DPS races this issue would resolve itself. I’d love a return to Guild Wars with companions, hardmode zones and all that good kitten but that isn’t very likely to happen anymore now is it?

And why would you support blatant gold sinks like foods and vendor buffs? If anything you should be calling for them to removed so ANet won’t balance the game around them anymore. Maybe then we’d see a bit more balance in WvWvW. The casuals aren’t going to pay up anyway so why even bother? There is no skill involved in passive buffs.

Vol.7601:

Some common examples of noobs being noobs:
-I’m halfway through rezzing a downed ele and they mistform away
-There are several downed players nearby, along with numerous mobs nearby that die in seconds, and they don’t utilize the rally mechanics and instead hold ‘4’ for 30 seconds
-People who are dead and beg for a rez when there is a WP no more than 15 seconds away
-Guardians who farm with sceptre/shield
-Players who choose to go mine a node a few feet away while ignoring the half dozen of mobs who spawn in a farm event
-Players who knockback/push mobs after they get all clumped up together
-Players who build siege on outerwalls of a keep as soon as the gate comes down

I’m sure there are more examples that happen, just can’t think of any now.

And they all infuriate me.

Don’t forget the thief that doesn’t know their class: thief 1 blasts smoke field for group stealth, at the end thief 2 puts down SR, negating the stealth and possibly revealing allies who don’t expect it.

Vol.7601:

Some common examples of noobs being noobs:
-There are several downed players nearby, along with numerous mobs nearby that die in seconds, and they don’t utilize the rally mechanics and instead hold ‘4’ for 30 seconds

I always found funny when I kill a mobs next to a downed pug and he’s mad because i didn’t rez him. USE THE FREAKING RALLY SYSTEM, it should be your first reflex when you down. It not funny at all, now that i think about it. sigh.

Thaddeus.4891:

Vol.7601:

Some common examples of noobs being noobs:
-There are several downed players nearby, along with numerous mobs nearby that die in seconds, and they don’t utilize the rally mechanics and instead hold ‘4’ for 30 seconds

I always found funny when I kill a mobs next to a downed pug and he’s mad because i didn’t rez him. USE THE FREAKING RALLY SYSTEM, it should be your first reflex when you down. It not funny at all, now that i think about it. sigh.

Much sad very wow.

Btw how about the mesmers that port away (sometimes into aoe or other mobs due to the awfulness of that skill) while you’re res’ing them. That makes me sad.

@Thaddeus: Funny why people should be angry when killing a mob near a downed player causes said player to insta-rally.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

@Thaddeus: Funny why people should be angry when killing a mob near a downed player causes said player to insta-rally.

If they didn’t hit the mob even once they wouldn’t rally.

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

Every MMO has that “bubble.” Every MMO has their glut of players that don’t know how to play beyond the rudimentary basics and really don’t care or want to learn. Everquest had them, WoW has them, SWToR has them, hell even GW1 had those players.

I also suspect said bubble represents the bulk of MMO players; they want mindless “fun.” Anything that requires learning or practice is “work”, and if they wanted “work” they’d be pulling extra time at their job… not in a video game that’s supposed to be “fun.”

Where GW2 differs is that there has been increasingly more open-world and living story content that asks (and requires) those players to rise to the challenge… and they, as a rule, have objectively REFUSED.

You see it in feedback from frustrated players. Players who refuse to release from a waypoint after being entirely defeated. Zerging into this massive ball and having no impact on the Dynamic Knights. Failing all that, they’ll do the bare minimum, hide in a corner, then go AFK.

“I’ll play how I want! kitten off!” Is their battle cry, and they tend to be the first in line to whine incessantly when something is “too hard” and “not fun.” And they will continue to groan and bellyache until the content they want to do is nerfed to the ground rather than take the time to be a better player.

How do you make them better? You don’t. They are completely immobile on this score. You have one of two options; dumb down everything so they can participate happily, or gate difficult content into its own instance where they won’t be offended by its presence.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Better if said warnings appear as large flashing text in front of their screens consisting of no more than two words and an exclamation “Drink Potion!”, “Dodge Now!”, “No Conditions!”

Because players are becoming too impatient (and possibly lazy) to read a long string of text on their right.

Would it really be bad if a message popped up that clearly said “Condition reflected” every single time you used a condition on one of the Knights?

I can’t really think of a good reason why not.

Fungalfoot.7213:

The issue here isn’t bad players – it’s bad design. If they started designing content which was more than zerg fests and DPS races this issue would resolve itself. I’d love a return to Guild Wars with companions, hardmode zones and all that good kitten but that isn’t very likely to happen anymore now is it?

And why would you support blatant gold sinks like foods and vendor buffs? If anything you should be calling for them to removed so ANet won’t balance the game around them anymore. Maybe then we’d see a bit more balance in WvWvW. The casuals aren’t going to pay up anyway so why even bother? There is no skill involved in passive buffs.

Actually quite a large part of the issue is down to bad players. The game may be faceroll easy but they still don’t do even the most obvious things.

@OP, all ANET can really do is to start/keep introducing content which requires dps, blasting fields, buffs, dodging and group coordination etc. People will either start to learn to do this kind of stuff, or they wont complete the content.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Also, spoon-feed players by having NPCs shout out instructions on how to defeat bosses:

[Assault Knights appear]
Rox: “Looks like Scarlet’s getting annoyed. Don’t forget to use your Scarlet’s Army Slaying Potion if you have any.”

[Assault Knight takes a flying leap]
Majory: “The Assault Knight is going to pull you in, dodge, now!”

[Assault Knights throw up their defensive shields]
Heal-o-Tron: Enemy-unit-has-engaged-shields. Suggest-cessation-of-condition-based-skills.

Better if said warnings appear as large flashing text in front of their screens consisting of no more than two words and an exclamation “Drink Potion!”, “Dodge Now!”, “No Conditions!”

Because players are becoming too impatient (and possibly lazy) to read a long string of text on their right.

It has been shown that the human IQ has slowly been lowering since the Victorian age. Not boding well for the longevity of the human race, honestly.

Also, your ‘flashing words’… only if some of us have the option to shut the things off. Some people suffer from migraines and other issues that can be affected by a lot of things flashing on the screen.

TooBz.3065:

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

Your missing the point. Nothing is neccessary. Theres a video of a level 35 engineer, solo’ing Spider Queen from AC. There are videos of no armor dungeon runs. There are surely tons of videos of people beating hard content with no consumables.

Does it mean you should do that because its not needed to faceroll or beat the content?
No it doesnt.

We do it for efficieny, if everyone was like you, things would take 2x as long and even if your not playing for Min/Maxing and a casual player, spending 50 copper on a potion, and 1 silver on food, isnt really a big deal.

You can do anything, you can run 5 Longbow rangers and beat any dungeon. Again, should you?

Just because its not “Do this or fail” Doesnt mean its the correct way, especially when playing with others.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Better if said warnings appear as large flashing text in front of their screens consisting of no more than two words and an exclamation “Drink Potion!”, “Dodge Now!”, “No Conditions!”

Because players are becoming too impatient (and possibly lazy) to read a long string of text on their right.

Would it really be bad if a message popped up that clearly said “Condition reflected” every single time you used a condition on one of the Knights?

I can’t really think of a good reason why not.

You would be spammed by onscreen text thanks to passive conditions like vuln and bleed on crit. So no thanks.

Anet needs to remove the 1Hit KO system, replacing it with a slower more tactical PVE.

That would require programming a decent AI and balance system resources on it…..something that will never happen….

So elitist will Always complain about people dying to mobs/bosses because they didn t look on youtube how their 1hitKO works….

What you are complaining of is this system of trial and error where you can t succeed the first time due to the total lack of hints on the game mechanics.

Yet many forgives this when from the 2nd or third time, the extremely superficial PVE becomes extremely easy (once youknow the tactic there is no challenge) so they don t tolerate errors by people that yet has to try it.

Fenrir.3609:

Actually quite a large part of the issue is down to bad players. The game may be faceroll easy but they still don’t do even the most obvious things.

@OP, all ANET can really do is to start/keep introducing content which requires dps, blasting fields, buffs, dodging and group coordination etc. People will either start to learn to do this kind of stuff, or they wont complete the content.

No, no, no. The game itself is responsible for the breed of players it fosters. If the game does not lead players to learn the mechanics, they’ll never will. That is not their fault.

The game designers have some responsibility here.

LordByron.8369:

Anet needs to remove the 1Hit KO system, replacing it with a slower more tactical PVE.
That would require programming a decent AI and balance system resources on it…..something that will never happen….
So elitist will Always complain about people dying to mobs/bosses because they didn t look on youtube how their 1hitKO works….
What you are complaining of is this system of trial and error where you can t succeed the first time due to the total lack of hints on the game mechanics.
Yet many forgives this when from the 2nd or third time, the extremely superficial PVE becomes extremely easy (once youknow the tactic there is no challenge) so they don t tolerate errors by people that yet has to try it.

Exactly, spot on LordByron. The combat is fundamentally flawed right now. It encourages a brainless spamfest, and anything that borders on challenging revolves around one-hit kills and poorly explained mechanics.

We need deeper combat. We need more strategy and more diverse builds. We need better ai, and more dynamic combat.

JJBigs.8456:

TooBz.3065:

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

Your missing the point. Nothing is neccessary. Theres a video of a level 35 engineer, solo’ing Spider Queen from AC. There are videos of no armor dungeon runs. There are surely tons of videos of people beating hard content with no consumables.

Does it mean you should do that because its not needed to faceroll or beat the content?
No it doesnt.

We do it for efficieny, if everyone was like you, things would take 2x as long and even if your not playing for Min/Maxing and a casual player, spending 50 copper on a potion, and 1 silver on food, isnt really a big deal.

You can do anything, you can run 5 Longbow rangers and beat any dungeon. Again, should you?

Just because its not “Do this or fail” Doesnt mean its the correct way, especially when playing with others.

I don’t think I misunderstood. The topic is about a “noob bubble”. I don’t think there are many noobs or that not using consumables make a difference. Most players are fine. Not optimal, but much better than “noobs.”

If, one the other hand, people think that because I won’t use a bowl of sweet and spicy butternut squash soup for AC path 3, I’m a noob… sigh. Ok.

Darkobra.6439:

You can get through 99% of this game without realising you’re doing it. You can run any build, any class and succeed. PvE failure is impossible. Nobody has felt a need to grow or play better because of this. It’s why other games are becoming more and more appealing.

In my opinion, a 12 minute cof1 or a 1 hour arah path is a fail. It’s all relative.

TooBz.3065:

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

The skill gap from one player to another in this game can be immense. However, you only notice as you become more skilled and start playing will very skilled people. The lions share of this community thinks they’re skilled, but aren’t.

Thaddeus.4891:

Vol.7601:

Some common examples of noobs being noobs:
-There are several downed players nearby, along with numerous mobs nearby that die in seconds, and they don’t utilize the rally mechanics and instead hold ‘4’ for 30 seconds

I always found funny when I kill a mobs next to a downed pug and he’s mad because i didn’t rez him. USE THE FREAKING RALLY SYSTEM, it should be your first reflex when you down. It not funny at all, now that i think about it. sigh.

I agree, it’s the most infuriating thing in game for me.

A clear perfect example is Temple of Grenth.

Here’s what noobs do:
-Rush toward Grenth and DPS him
-Get immediately downed either from:
a.) Wraith aoes
b.) Grenth Shadow Storm (drop aoe)
c.) Ice Storm
-Heal aimlessly while another wave of icicles finishes him off
-And often, stand next to Jones which spawns icicles, eventually killing him

Here’s what pros do:
-kill the wraiths first
-Grab the debuff
-Rush toward Grenth and DPS him, also making sure to tag all mobs in vicinity in case of needing to rally
-Kite/LOS him near the altar and far in the back to prevent luring even more Shadows
-Dodge all Shadow Strikes and Ice Storms
-If downed (which you eventually will once you reach 25 stacks), tag the Ice Elementals since they are easy to kill and kill themselves when they reach the target player

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Fenrir.3609:

Actually quite a large part of the issue is down to bad players. The game may be faceroll easy but they still don’t do even the most obvious things.

@OP, all ANET can really do is to start/keep introducing content which requires dps, blasting fields, buffs, dodging and group coordination etc. People will either start to learn to do this kind of stuff, or they wont complete the content.

No, no, no. The game itself is responsible for the breed of players it fosters. If the game does not lead players to learn the mechanics, they’ll never will. That is not their fault.

The game designers have some responsibility here.

I said a large part of it is down to the player, not all of it. So yes the designers have some responsibility here, but so does the player.

If you are suggesting it is all on the mechanics and not on the players at all. Well then you are quite clearly wrong.

laharl.8435:

TooBz.3065:

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

The skill gap from one player to another in this game can be immense. However, you only notice as you become more skilled and start playing will very skilled people. The lions share of this community thinks they’re skilled, but aren’t.

Yep, that would be me.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It has been shown that the human IQ has slowly been lowering since the Victorian age.

No. Just no. Bad statement. Insults a whole bunch of physicists, engineers, researchers, etc. Also glorifies the poor class in Victorian Era that weren’t even allowed education.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Would it really be bad if a message popped up that clearly said “Condition reflected” every single time you used a condition on one of the Knights?

I can’t really think of a good reason why not.

You can’t change the stupid. You tell people that conditions are reflected, they tell you “well sorry, some of my skills have conditions!” and continue using them. No matter how obnoxious you’ll make the warning those people that don’t get it right now, will not get it then either.

Vol.7601:

I agree, it’s the most infuriating thing in game for me.

A clear perfect example is Temple of Grenth.

Here’s what noobs do:
-Rush toward Grenth and DPS him
-Get immediately downed either from:
a.) Wraith aoes
b.) Grenth Shadow Storm (drop aoe)
c.) Ice Storm
-Heal aimlessly while another wave of icicles finishes him off
-And often, stand next to Jones which spawns icicles, eventually killing him

Here’s what pros do:
-kill the wraiths first
-Grab the debuff
-Rush toward Grenth and DPS him, also making sure to tag all mobs in vicinity in case of needing to rally
-Kite/LOS him near the altar and far in the back to prevent luring even more Shadows
-Dodge all Shadow Strikes and Ice Storms
-If downed (which you eventually will once you reach 25 stacks), tag the Ice Elementals since they are easy to kill and kill themselves when they reach the target player

At one point I was this noob too. Quite late into my playing experience as well, because I just never felt like doing Grenth. And to be honest unless someone is explaining on the map chat (which likely they’re not going to) the only way to learn is to try it yourself. 5 minutes of fail and you know the mechanics. Nothing wrong with that.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Second of all, you misunderstood what the thread you are replying to said. People are sick of being discriminated against because they arn’t running a specific build or having a certain amount of achievement points. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are bad.

“Challenge” is not equal to “annoyance from inexperienced player”. Nobody should be claimed an “elitist” because he “refused” to help low-levels, because nobody is obliged to do it. Elitist do exist, but the OP exaggerates and generalises it too much. Thus the thread title.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Also, spoon-feed players by having NPCs shout out instructions on how to defeat bosses:

[Assault Knights appear]
Rox: “Looks like Scarlet’s getting annoyed. Don’t forget to use your Scarlet’s Army Slaying Potion if you have any.”

[Assault Knight takes a flying leap]
Majory: “The Assault Knight is going to pull you in, dodge, now!”

[Assault Knights throw up their defensive shields]
Heal-o-Tron: Enemy-unit-has-engaged-shields. Suggest-cessation-of-condition-based-skills.

Yes, please! I loved the Jormag event because NPCs actually hinted me to wash the ledges and protect the golems. It might be less of a discovery, but since mechanics are discovered pretty soon anyway, we can skip the discovery phase altogether.

JJBigs.8456:

TooBz.3065:

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

Your missing the point. Nothing is neccessary. Theres a video of a level 35 engineer, solo’ing Spider Queen from AC. There are videos of no armor dungeon runs. There are surely tons of videos of people beating hard content with no consumables.

Does it mean you should do that because its not needed to faceroll or beat the content?
No it doesnt.

We do it for efficieny, if everyone was like you, things would take 2x as long and even if your not playing for Min/Maxing and a casual player, spending 50 copper on a potion, and 1 silver on food, isnt really a big deal.

You can do anything, you can run 5 Longbow rangers and beat any dungeon. Again, should you?

Just because its not “Do this or fail” Doesnt mean its the correct way, especially when playing with others.

Pretty much this. Thumbed up.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Those are terrible suggestions! Requiring players to use a consumable to beat content is bad and annoying. Insta kills are also bad and annoying.

What the game needs, is a tutorial, and slowly increasing difficulty. The game needs to teach players the required skills naturally as they play through PVE. Players aren’t lazy, but the game designers made a design mistake by not coming up with a decent way to teach players essential combat strategy.

If these suggestions are part of a tutorial, there’s nothing terrible in them. If there’s no repair fee and buffs are 0 copper from NPC, doubly so, even if it is a part of LS. Use it once – get used to it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Btw how about the mesmers that port away (sometimes into aoe or other mobs due to the awfulness of that skill) while you’re res’ing them. That makes me sad.

To mesmer’s defense, I can say that this skill is so slow and buggy that I often get it cast at the moment when I don’t want it anymore because somebody is there to help, but alas.

@bird, I know, terrible skill, but it still infuriates me, nonetheless. Hehe

Mirta.5029:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

It has been shown that the human IQ has slowly been lowering since the Victorian age.

No. Just no. Bad statement. Insults a whole bunch of physicists, engineers, researchers, etc. Also glorifies the poor class in Victorian Era that weren’t even allowed education.

The statement was simply that, a statement. There have been several studies into the matter. Does it mean that there aren’t still smart people? Not at all. However, Einstein and his ilk were rarities, not the rule. Today, really smart people are still rarities, and seem to becoming more so due to the general nature of society (general loss or lack of common sense, loss of basic virtues, etc). It was not intended as an insult to those that are smart, nor was it ‘glorifying’ anything. It was simply a statement regarding the general population.

My main is a guardian so i never had any problem with the lack of reflect, aegis, stability, etc. But for the last couple month i play more on my Warrior and Ele for the speed clear.

It always frustrating to see people not using the the strength of the profession.

You don’t bind Malrona to the wall in TA before using your wall to reflect her AoE? Ok, if you are the only one with reflect it can be dangerous wihtout enough DPS.

But if you go melee the final Tree in the UP path and don’t bring neither wall of SoA, then you make me sad.

If you rush to stack for Golems or Bomber in SE, but don’t put a Wall of reflection. My little guardian heart broke a little more each time.

Vol.7601:

I agree, it’s the most infuriating thing in game for me.

A clear perfect example is Temple of Grenth.

Here’s what noobs do:
-Rush toward Grenth and DPS him
-Get immediately downed either from:
a.) Wraith aoes
b.) Grenth Shadow Storm (drop aoe)
c.) Ice Storm
-Heal aimlessly while another wave of icicles finishes him off
-And often, stand next to Jones which spawns icicles, eventually killing him

Here’s what pros do:
-kill the wraiths first
-Grab the debuff
-Rush toward Grenth and DPS him, also making sure to tag all mobs in vicinity in case of needing to rally
-Kite/LOS him near the altar and far in the back to prevent luring even more Shadows
-Dodge all Shadow Strikes and Ice Storms
-If downed (which you eventually will once you reach 25 stacks), tag the Ice Elementals since they are easy to kill and kill themselves when they reach the target player

Just to help me understand how the pro approaching is build in the game (because I like to look at how games are made/designed).

Is this pro behaviour something that a pro player can learn the very first time that reaches the event, without looking anywhere else?

Because, for me, that’s a good difficulty design. If the game/event/boss/combat engine(s) allow someone to reach such a skill than, the very first time an encounter is presented, it can be done -with skill, paying attention, observation…- without knowing anything else, and without relying on “got the exact proper build that was needed”.

I’m not sure because I never did Temple of Grenth, but I’d like (and that why I ask) if the chain of events/actions proposed here as pro is something that good players can learn themselves, or if it’s something that needs some repetition until they got the tricks.

I would love if they brought more ‘elite’ solo/dungeon content. For example something like the Mad Kings Clock tower with a boss like Liadri at the end and when you die you need to start all over again. (maybe not that extreme but still i’d love if it was that hard) Add some very good rewards at the end and this will force people to play more active instead of spamming 111111111.
Tequatl and The Wurm already do a pretty good job at this, although people still don’t care all that much about dying since the zerg will get them back up in a few seconds.
Make it small scale and players will learn to rely on their own more.

“This thread, despite the title, is not supposed to be inflammatory. It actually states the evident – a lot of players are too lazy to learn the basics of the game, including but not limited to:”

I think you’re wrong. I dont think “lazyness” is the answer to why so many dont play as you wish. It is about choices. I dont remember exactly all anet said when I buyed (bought?) this game, but I remember the “jump in and play” and “if you see someone fighting, go ahead and join, you are helping.”
And then it appears there is alot of mechanics, there is a lot of armor and weapons, even proffesions, that isnt good enough, and there is a lot of people who demand you to research guides, builds and tactics, go on youtube to be “prepared” for dungeons and most of all, understand all these fgj, gs, wp, hambows and whatnot.
Not to mention combo fields, what they do, how they work and wich one to use in different situations and with different players.
Not everybody, but a big lot looks at this and think “heck, this isnt supposed to be a second life or a job or something, this is about me playing a game for fun a couple of hours some afternoons. Dont need that, dont even want to need that”
Because a lot of people dont take this very serious, and why should they? It is a game after all. So they choose not to invest the time and/or effort to be good, and demanding anything else will just make them walk away.

Lishtenbird.2814:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Second of all, you misunderstood what the thread you are replying to said. People are sick of being discriminated against because they arn’t running a specific build or having a certain amount of achievement points. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are bad.

“Challenge” is not equal to “annoyance from inexperienced player”. Nobody should be claimed an “elitist” because he “refused” to help low-levels, because nobody is obliged to do it. Elitist do exist, but the OP exaggerates and generalises it too much. Thus the thread title.

Heraldusluminare.2946:

Also, spoon-feed players by having NPCs shout out instructions on how to defeat bosses:

[Assault Knights appear]
Rox: “Looks like Scarlet’s getting annoyed. Don’t forget to use your Scarlet’s Army Slaying Potion if you have any.”

[Assault Knight takes a flying leap]
Majory: “The Assault Knight is going to pull you in, dodge, now!”

[Assault Knights throw up their defensive shields]
Heal-o-Tron: Enemy-unit-has-engaged-shields. Suggest-cessation-of-condition-based-skills.

Yes, please! I loved the Jormag event because NPCs actually hinted me to wash the ledges and protect the golems. It might be less of a discovery, but since mechanics are discovered pretty soon anyway, we can skip the discovery phase altogether.

JJBigs.8456:

TooBz.3065:

I think the skill of the average player is fine. I’ve never run anything with people who are as bad as people here are pretending.

Most people dodge. Few people use consumables in PvE. But most use then in WvW. Frankly, they aren’t necessary to steamroll most of the content.

Your missing the point. Nothing is neccessary. Theres a video of a level 35 engineer, solo’ing Spider Queen from AC. There are videos of no armor dungeon runs. There are surely tons of videos of people beating hard content with no consumables.

Does it mean you should do that because its not needed to faceroll or beat the content?
No it doesnt.

We do it for efficieny, if everyone was like you, things would take 2x as long and even if your not playing for Min/Maxing and a casual player, spending 50 copper on a potion, and 1 silver on food, isnt really a big deal.

You can do anything, you can run 5 Longbow rangers and beat any dungeon. Again, should you?

Just because its not “Do this or fail” Doesnt mean its the correct way, especially when playing with others.

Pretty much this. Thumbed up.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Those are terrible suggestions! Requiring players to use a consumable to beat content is bad and annoying. Insta kills are also bad and annoying.

What the game needs, is a tutorial, and slowly increasing difficulty. The game needs to teach players the required skills naturally as they play through PVE. Players aren’t lazy, but the game designers made a design mistake by not coming up with a decent way to teach players essential combat strategy.

If these suggestions are part of a tutorial, there’s nothing terrible in them. If there’s no repair fee and buffs are 0 copper from NPC, doubly so, even if it is a part of LS. Use it once – get used to it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Btw how about the mesmers that port away (sometimes into aoe or other mobs due to the awfulness of that skill) while you’re res’ing them. That makes me sad.

To mesmer’s defense, I can say that this skill is so slow and buggy that I often get it cast at the moment when I don’t want it anymore because somebody is there to help, but alas.

lol you didn’t read anything the original OP or comments on the thread said did you? What doesnt make since is why you made a completely new thread and still refer to an OP? I guess this was so important to you that posting a simple comment wasn’t enough. You really wanted your skewed view of elitism and noobism to be heard.

Randall.7306:

Vol.7601:

-snip-

Just to help me understand how the pro approaching is build in the game (because I like to look at how games are made/designed).

Is this pro behaviour something that a pro player can learn the very first time that reaches the event, without looking anywhere else?

Because, for me, that’s a good difficulty design. If the game/event/boss/combat engine(s) allow someone to reach such a skill than, the very first time an encounter is presented, it can be done -with skill, paying attention, observation…- without knowing anything else, and without relying on “got the exact proper build that was needed”.

I’m not sure because I never did Temple of Grenth, but I’d like (and that why I ask) if the chain of events/actions proposed here as pro is something that good players can learn themselves, or if it’s something that needs some repetition until they got the tricks.

I admit, I was a bit unfair there. All the mechanics in there that you are unaware of until you do it a second time.

For example, most players think aoes are not harmful unless you stand in them forever.
Shadow Strike can instantly kill you if you drop from a height with low HP
Ice Storm can instantly down you if you do not avoid them, especially when the aoes are stacked (often the case with a zerg)
So you won’t know these mechanics on your first run.

However, at a minimum, you should understand the rally mechanic and it’s utmost importance in Temple of Grenth. It’s mandatory if you want to survive longer than 10 seconds whenever there is a zerg there.

What Grenth comes down to on average is
-knowledge of mechanics
-quick reaction time
-playing smart

@lishtenbird: Well, I was joking actually. Lol. I kinda like being part of a team where survival means I was alert to enemy tells. It makes me feel smart.

Of course, I don’t mind facerolling on occasion to get nice loot.

Its not a job. But that doesn’t mean that you should be lazy. Remember that Sloth is one of the 7 deadly sin (what did i just use religion, what is wrong with me lol).

But seriously. There is a difference between pushing yourself to be the best you can at something and just being lazy about it and just don’t care. If you want to be lazy and don’t give a crap why are you playing the game in the first place? If i play the guitar, even if i don’t want to be pro i want to be at least capable of playing some music not just some random notes.

And even if you want to be lazy and don’t improve at all in the game. Then play by yourselves. Don’t go into a speed run and then complain in the forums about how you got kicked.