Guild Wars 2

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

ipan, how is it you have three times as many posts as anyone else in this thread and have half as much to say? Without actually listening to the points from the more reasonable people who I know hate the grindy bits . . .

I’ll try to break it down from what I understand. This may run long.

First, your point. Farming is a fundamental flaw in MMO design. I agree, this is indeed something which exists as a flaw, which begins when we attach “monsters drop loot which can then be transformed into something more useful, such as liquid cash” to “monsters are infinitely respawning”. What we get is “monsters are an infinite source of loot which can be sold”.

This moves into another issue which is usually tangential but it impacts the “farming” issue right here: inflation.

When money is, in effect, only bounded by the time which is spent on getting it, then there is a real danger of those who have more time to produce more money or more goods to turn into money on a player market.

What this means is people, like me, who have been playing since the first day a character could be created and not wiped . . . could conceivably have more money than anyone else on the server if they did nothing but farm infinitely repeating monsters all the time. And you’re not going to stop that because it is the laziest effective way to make money. (Effective, not efficient. Most efficient would be flipping specific goods on the player market.)

This is something not restricted just to MMOs, mind you. It’s just mostly called “grinding” on single player games. And it’s existed in the RPG/Adventure genre for a long time now. So far back we can point to Roguelikes which had farms in them. Here have proof that I’m not joking.

My point, to break it down: There is always going to be a ‘farm’ so long as infinitely respawning enemies drop an infinitely possible loot table, except if Diminishing Returns or “anti-farm-code” exists. We all hate DR, especially because it bites at the worst times and takes forever to stop. But that’s supposed to be there to prevent farming from being infinitely lucrative by introducing a boundary near which the loot chance approaches (but never reaches) 0.

So, you want the developers to stop farming from existing? Fantastic. Let’s hear how we’re supposed to do that without messing up the systems which make an MMO actually function. Such as respawning enemies, and loot drops. Or you can find the magic bullet somewhere in the deep forgotten recesses of time which has always been present since the dawn of RPGs which makes farming obsolete enough to be unsatisfactory.

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

I’m still waiting on Nethack to be fun any time I play. Or Gnomoria.

On the other hand . . . UFO: Enemy Unknown by Microprose? Still fun every time.

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

For everyone? Yes, I’d say that’s impossible. For example I have fun in the open world every time I play in it. Every single time.

But you probably don’t.

whats farming to one if different for another. i remember gw1 where a friend got level 80 gear and got it early and thats all he ever wanted or needed. i farmed all the sets of armor for fun because i liked having different sets with dyes id farmed to have a new look every other day. now he would have called that farming i called it getting what i wanted. i didnt need those set none had better stats but it was looks foe me which was important. i think the reason he played so much was the enjoyment of getting on teamspeak and doing stuff with me and others. so if you dont like farming id say get on to do stuff with other can be entertaining you might try it instead

rabidsmiles.5926:

I tend to agree with most of it…but legendaries shouldn’t drop and they most certainly shouldn’t be able to be sold on the TP. That part still boggles my mind.

Some People prefer other skins to legends doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to sell there hard earn farming over the tp for gold instead plus a net takes 15%

ipan.4356:

Well, again, here is where we disagree on what developers can or cannot do.

I think they can do better (and more).

You don’t seem to recognize that the game as it is developed is successful already. What they can or can’t do is irrelevant. Arguing the need for dynamic content, etc … is simply academic when what they have done by following their current plans already achieves their goals. When the premise of that argument is wrong (too much farming), then it moves from an academic to a stupid discussion.

ipan.4356:

The point is that the threat of losing customers would light a fire under their kitten

If the game was a failure, maybe you would have a point but in this case, your fearmongering is pointless. The risk of losing customers when the game has run successfully for the last 2 years AND claiming that your suggestions would prevent that is just pure nonsense.

ipan.4356:

In over a year of playing, I’ve never seen an exotic drop once.

Then you’re doing it wrong. Look at this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2ecb9z/i_opened_10k_champion_chests_for_science/

Not only did that guy get tons of exotics, he actually got a precursor.

Ashen.2907:

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

See, I have to disagree with that. Even after 4 years, 3v3 games in Dawn of War on the Argus Desert Gate map have yet to lose their luster for me.

I couldn’t tell you what the secret is, but I’d imagine it has to do with balance being extremely good between factions and it being all PvP oriented (constantly changing strategies).

NewTrain.7549:

Ashen.2907:

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

See, I have to disagree with that. Even after 4 years, 3v3 games in Dawn of War on the Argus Desert Gate map have yet to lose their luster for me.

I couldn’t tell you what the secret is, but I’d imagine it has to do with balance being extremely good between factions and it being all PvP oriented (constantly changing strategies).

Difference between sandbox and themepark.

Themepark MMOs are what we have to compare to, since this is a themepark MMO. Sandbox MMOs have user created content and conflict. The company has to do a lot less to keep that going.

Here all the content has to be created and presented. It’s not going to change much so you always need more content.

The problem is, and has always been, theme park MMOs are far more successful, so far anyway, than sand box MMOs.

i wished this forum had a downvote option,
keeping whining spam like this out of my view

NewTrain.7549:

Ashen.2907:

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

See, I have to disagree with that. Even after 4 years, 3v3 games in Dawn of War on the Argus Desert Gate map have yet to lose their luster for me.

I couldn’t tell you what the secret is, but I’d imagine it has to do with balance being extremely good between factions and it being all PvP oriented (constantly changing strategies).

Well I did say, “generally.” I was not trying to say that that this was an absolute. Even so, four years is not that long (IMO), wait and see how often you ay that game in another five or ten years.

Galowin.6089:

i wished this forum had a downvote option,
keeping whining spam like this out of my view

You have to choose to view it. Choosing to look at something and then complaining about having looked at it seems a bit weird IMO.

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Ashen.2907:

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

See, I have to disagree with that. Even after 4 years, 3v3 games in Dawn of War on the Argus Desert Gate map have yet to lose their luster for me.

I couldn’t tell you what the secret is, but I’d imagine it has to do with balance being extremely good between factions and it being all PvP oriented (constantly changing strategies).

Difference between sandbox and themepark.

Themepark MMOs are what we have to compare to, since this is a themepark MMO. Sandbox MMOs have user created content and conflict. The company has to do a lot less to keep that going.

Here all the content has to be created and presented. It’s not going to change much so you always need more content.

The problem is, and has always been, theme park MMOs are far more successful, so far anyway, than sand box MMOs.

Are you trying to say that it’s not possible for themepark MMOs to be fun over long periods? If so, perhaps it would be in a company’s best interest to introduce significant sandbox elements for high level players, eh?

Ashen.2907:

Well I did say, “generally.” I was not trying to say that that this was an absolute. Even so, four years is not that long (IMO), wait and see how often you ay that game in another five or ten years.

Good point. But in terms of video games 4 years is pretty significant nowadays. My overall point is that if a company makes repeatable content fun and engaging, you won’t get nearly as many complaints about farming and grinding. With that in mind, I would say that a significant group of players does not find GW2’s current repeatable content to be fun or engaging.

NewTrain.7549:

Vayne.8563:

NewTrain.7549:

Ashen.2907:

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

See, I have to disagree with that. Even after 4 years, 3v3 games in Dawn of War on the Argus Desert Gate map have yet to lose their luster for me.

I couldn’t tell you what the secret is, but I’d imagine it has to do with balance being extremely good between factions and it being all PvP oriented (constantly changing strategies).

Difference between sandbox and themepark.

Themepark MMOs are what we have to compare to, since this is a themepark MMO. Sandbox MMOs have user created content and conflict. The company has to do a lot less to keep that going.

Here all the content has to be created and presented. It’s not going to change much so you always need more content.

The problem is, and has always been, theme park MMOs are far more successful, so far anyway, than sand box MMOs.

Are you trying to say that it’s not possible for themepark MMOs to be fun over long periods? If so, perhaps it would be in a company’s best interest to introduce significant sandbox elements for high level players, eh?

Ashen.2907:

Well I did say, “generally.” I was not trying to say that that this was an absolute. Even so, four years is not that long (IMO), wait and see how often you ay that game in another five or ten years.

Good point. But in terms of video games 4 years is pretty significant nowadays. My overall point is that if a company makes repeatable content fun and engaging, you won’t get nearly as many complaints about farming and grinding. With that in mind, I would say that a significant group of players does not find GW2’s current repeatable content to be fun or engaging.

I’ve never seen a themepark game that has infinite replayability, because its limited by it’s nature. That’s why you have to keep adding to it. That’s why they come out with regular expansions. That’s why players are demanding that Guild Wars 2 comes out with an expansion.

Regular expansions are good.

A procedurally generated, randomized dungeon (what ‘fractals’ should be) would probably keep a lot of players (including me) entertained in between expansions.

You don’t want to farm? Simple. Don’t.

Oxidia.8103:

You don’t want to farm? Simple. Don’t.

Translation: Move on to a new game, don’t spend any money here.

NewTrain.7549:

Ashen.2907:

NewTrain.7549:

Apparently it’s impossible to create repeatable content that’s actually fun each time you play.

Even the most fun/enjoyable content will generally lose its lustre over time.

See, I have to disagree with that. Even after 4 years, 3v3 games in Dawn of War on the Argus Desert Gate map have yet to lose their luster for me.

I couldn’t tell you what the secret is, but I’d imagine it has to do with balance being extremely good between factions and it being all PvP oriented (constantly changing strategies).

Sorry, just noticed the last sentence. Yeah, I tend to agree that PvP often has more longevity because of tactical/strategic evolution/variation.

ipan.4356:

Oxidia.8103:

You don’t want to farm? Simple. Don’t.

Translation: Move on to a new game, don’t spend any money here.

Oh come on, really? So many people have already said farming is a choice and you continue to insist that it’s not. I choose not to farm. I don’t farm. I’m still playing this game.

Therefore your translation is in error.

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Oxidia.8103:

You don’t want to farm? Simple. Don’t.

Translation: Move on to a new game, don’t spend any money here.

Oh come on, really? So many people have already said farming is a choice and you continue to insist that it’s not. I choose not to farm. I don’t farm. I’m still playing this game.

Therefore your translation is in error.

If you’re playing, you’re farming, because there isn’t anything else to do in the game, except farm.

ipan.4356:

Vayne.8563:

ipan.4356:

Oxidia.8103:

You don’t want to farm? Simple. Don’t.

Translation: Move on to a new game, don’t spend any money here.

Oh come on, really? So many people have already said farming is a choice and you continue to insist that it’s not. I choose not to farm. I don’t farm. I’m still playing this game.

Therefore your translation is in error.

If you’re playing, you’re farming, because there isn’t anything else to do in the game, except farm.

You are mistaken.

And any case, my translation is fine – that poster essentially said if you don’t like it, don’t play it.

I agreed, adding the thought that I also won’t be spending any more money.

Which is what it really comes down to.

Anet wants to make some money on their game, then they ought to make a game that people want to spend money on, right?

I mean, that’s pretty simple market logic right there.

So, what do people want? What will make them spend even more money?

More content.

I stopped spending money in the cash shop when I realized that Anet was not adding any significant content anymore.

When (or if) they do, then I may reevaluate whether I want to spend any more time (or money) in the game.

My guess, however, is that they are going to shoot themselves in the foot – like just about every MMO does – and not actually add any content that will bring people back in.

It sounds to me like people are leaving the game in droves – and this is largely due to the lack of content updates.

Now, if they just worked on adding some more content, then we’d all be happy, and I’d spend some money on cosmetic items to support the continue development of the game (so that they can add even MORE content).

But, all appearances say they are not going to do this, and this displeases me.

No new zones (Dry Top is like, 1/2 a zone). No new dungeons. No new classes. No new weapons, no new skills (aside from a couple heals). No new enemies. No new mechanics.

All we get is Living Story, which is totally half baked in my mind – and therefore not worth spending additional funds on.

Since the game has no sub, it is risk free – and I can complain and petition for the things I want (more zones, more dungeons, more classes, more races, more weapons, more skills) until they do add it, or another game becomes so much more interesting to me that I stop logging in to GW2 completely.

Sooner or later, something’s gotta give.

ipan.4356:

If you’re playing, you’re farming, because there isn’t anything else to do in the game, except farm.

So, is this the point where this topic no longer has any constructive or useful discussion since everything comes back to this “complete and unassailable truth”?

What would be more content that is not farming as per your definition?

Primarily, I’d prefer new maps opened up and new dungeons (possibly old dungeons revised and expanded, as well).

Let me give you some concrete examples:

Open up the ENTIRE Magus Falls, Verdant Forest, Far Shiverpeaks, OR NE corner (past Blazeridge, Flame Legion origins). Any 1 of these REGIONS would be acceptable as entirely new content (I’d expect for every 2 years that goes by, at least one of these regions to be fully opened up).

New dungeons, that are about this size:

http://paratime.ca/images/fantasy/dungeon-075bw.jpg

(Note: I’m just providing a frame of reference for size comparison – I want dungeons that take longer to explore, instead of linear quest objective dungeons that just lead you from one room to the next – also, while I’m on the topic, I think that every dungeon should have scaleable difficulty and a ‘solo mode’, with both down scaled enemies and down scaled rewards)

And also old dungeons revamped and expanded (particularly for size and possible pathways – I want a dozen different directions to go in for all dungeons, ideally).

New “mini” dungeons – little keeps, cave systems, castles, etc. that make exploring older areas new again.

All open world content properly scaled, so that’s it’s possible to do ANYTHING, even champs, even with 1 person (and of course the rewards properly scaled as well).

New DE’s to replace the old ones on some kind of rotational schedule (this should be done every month – every map should have, at minimum, one DE removed, and one added).

One new class (every two years, minimum).

Each class should have a new weapon, and at least 3 new utility skills (every two years, minimum – though eventually, stop adding new weapons – there is a limit to how many weapons can be added to classes under this system).

A new playable race (Tengu, Koda, Skritt – my vote goes to Koda).

That’s the gist of it….I’m sure I could add and tweak the list here and there, but I think you get the idea.

So you’d rather go from farming now to farming later?

So in others words, if it’s “new” then it’s not farming. Next week once it’s no longer “new” it will be farming?

Don’t get me wrong, I like new stuff as much if not more as the next guy … but you are simply bored, that doesn’t have anything to do with farming. You find farming boring which is why you associate being bored with it.

When they added the burglar skritt events and others most people didn’t even notice.

I like your DE rotation idea somewhat, worth exploring.

Edit: Nothing wrong with getting bored btw. I took a break, finally played Skyrim and ME.

What you really mean by “I Don’t Want to Farm Anymore” is “I want everything handed to me”.

Having an MMO without having to put any effort in at all is absolutely absurd. Also, jokes on you, you can barely farm anymore. They’ve nerfed all the profitable ones because of people like you that complain about the “grind”. Good job.

Arcade Fire.4895:

What you really mean by “I Don’t Want to Farm Anymore” is “I want everything handed to me”.

Having an MMO without having to put any effort in at all is absolutely absurd. Also, jokes on you, you can barely farm anymore. They’ve nerfed all the profitable ones because of people like you that complain about the “grind”. Good job.

Actually, I want the opposite.

I want the content to be MORE difficult, but less necessary to repeat it.

For example, I prefer guaranteed rewards from defeating bosses or events, but those bosses and events can be more challenging than they currently are.

The goal being to reduce the number of times you need to replay any particular piece of content, while increasing the total amount of content available.

That goal creates a more interesting problem, though. If people don’t need to replay it, then there’s no incentive to do so . . . and if there’s no incentive to do so, then you run into two problems:

- A rapid splash of activity close to release time and tapering off to “nobody does it anymore”.
- People who didn’t do it in that time can’t do it because nobody wants to.

Sounds like you would like to play Skyrim.

Your ideas are counter productive for MMOs. Anet actually tried it with the initial LS. Temporary content such like MF dungeon for example. Check out the complaint threads.

What good is an increased content that no one wants to do? Why do you think they stopped offering all activities at the same time? You are fragmenting the player base. There are enough maps already that are not popular “per se”.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

I’ve been playing since the prerelease so maybe things have changed that make it more difficult for new players, but I have never farmed. I never did the Cursed Shore trains back in the early days. I never farmed CoF or any other dungeons. I don’t even have the dungeon master title. I very rarely jump on a champ train, usually only if I happen to be in Frostgorge or CS doing the daily. I just do whatever I feel like doing. But I have about 11K AP and ten toons all in exotic armor and weapons. Most have ascended trinkets and I have at least one ascended weapon. I didn’t think more of those were worth crafting. Likewise for ascended armor. You do not have to farm to have exotics. Just play the content and you can easily get them. Do the dailies. Early in the game I didn’t even do the those. Kill some world bosses. Do some events. Do an occasional dungeon. You can get everything you need in this game by just playing casually. Or at least you could. I suspect it is still true since I leveled a toon to 80 after the trait change using only weapons and armor that I found or occasionally got from karma vendors. Grinding is definitely not required excep for vanity items like legendaries.

It doesnt change what i said, doing XX time the same dungeon to have the set you want, waiting X weeks to have the necessary gold / mat to buy / craft your gear in this game its FARMING.

Because not everyone like to waste his game time doing their poor pve ( whatever you do during how many time a day ) JUST to be able to play different builds

I dont know how you play your character(s) but to play correctly differents builds on 1 class i need 4-5 differents stat set + copy of the same stats because differents rune / sigils.
Its not more difficult, it requier to do over and over and over again the same things just to play your class.

Its farming

And except if you were used to hardcore grindfest asian mmo, this game have is clearly a farmfest when the manifesto said it would not. ( a bit like GW1 where for the equivalence of 2-3gold you could get a full set of end game stat, BUT with a basic skin.. the farm was ONLY for skins, so you were NOT restraint for you gameplay )

ipan.4356:

Open up the ENTIRE Magus Falls, Verdant Forest, Far Shiverpeaks, OR NE corner (past Blazeridge, Flame Legion origins). Any 1 of these REGIONS would be acceptable as entirely new content (I’d expect for every 2 years that goes by, at least one of these regions to be fully opened up).

So every two years, huh? You do realize that players would have completely explored these within a month and then have nothing to do, right? They’d then have 23 months to wait for the next update. By that time the game would be dead.

ipan.4356:

New dungeons, that are about this size:

http://paratime.ca/images/fantasy/dungeon-075bw.jpg

(Note: I’m just providing a frame of reference for size comparison – I want dungeons that take longer to explore, instead of linear quest objective dungeons that just lead you from one room to the next – also, while I’m on the topic, I think that every dungeon should have scaleable difficulty and a ‘solo mode’, with both down scaled enemies and down scaled rewards)

Looks more of a grind to me. So players have to grind through nearly 250 rooms just to complete the dungeon? Yep. That sure goes against your anti-grind mentality.

ipan.4356:

And also old dungeons revamped and expanded (particularly for size and possible pathways – I want a dozen different directions to go in for all dungeons, ideally).

And what would prevent path 1 from being no different than say path 11? There are only so many different ways that you can do a dungeon before things get repetitive. And that’s just for one dungeon. Imagine if they did this for all of them.

ipan.4356:

New “mini” dungeons – little keeps, cave systems, castles, etc. that make exploring older areas new again.

I don’t see anything wrong with this one.

ipan.4356:

All open world content properly scaled, so that’s it’s possible to do ANYTHING, even champs, even with 1 person (and of course the rewards properly scaled as well).

The problem with this is that you’re making it into more of a singple player game than you know, an MMO. If you dislike group content then perhaps the MMO genre is not for you. In fact, based on all of your complaints, I’m 100% sure that MMO’s are not for you.

You’ll more than likely get a more enjoyable experience playing games such as Skyrim on the PC and then uploading player-created mods. I suggest you try that that ruin the MMO genre for everyone else.

ipan.4356:

New DE’s to replace the old ones on some kind of rotational schedule (this should be done every month – every map should have, at minimum, one DE removed, and one added).

Do you realize what goes into creating those DE’s and that eventually they would just repeat each other and thus be a grind under your definition? Anet also does not have the resources to do this nor the financial capability. They would have to add a monthly subscription to even come close to making this feasible (especially along with your other suggestions).

ipan.4356:

One new class (every two years, minimum).

Each class should have a new weapon, and at least 3 new utility skills (every two years, minimum – though eventually, stop adding new weapons – there is a limit to how many weapons can be added to classes under this system).

And what’s to prevent creating classes that overlap. Also, isn’kitten grind to have to level another class? Isn’kitten grind to experience the same content again with another class?

ipan.4356:

A new playable race (Tengu, Koda, Skritt – my vote goes to Koda).

Same response as my one about your new class suggestion.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That goal creates a more interesting problem, though. If people don’t need to replay it, then there’s no incentive to do so . . . and if there’s no incentive to do so, then you run into two problems:

- A rapid splash of activity close to release time and tapering off to “nobody does it anymore”.
- People who didn’t do it in that time can’t do it because nobody wants to.

Replayability should be based on whether it’s fun or not.

Well designed content is replayed for itself – not for the extrinsic rewards it offers.

For example, SAB. People loved to play SAB over and over again, because it was awesome wicked fun.

Even with no rewards whatsoever, people loved to play SAB.

Why was it removed? Because Anet saw it as a threat. SAB was intended to be a ‘cutesy’ diversion – a nod and wink to past platformers, and a sly way to include some meta humor into the game.

It worked too well.

A lot of people enjoy playing SAB more than the rest of the game – so they yanked it.

It threatened their view of how to sell gems.

ipan.4356:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

That goal creates a more interesting problem, though. If people don’t need to replay it, then there’s no incentive to do so . . . and if there’s no incentive to do so, then you run into two problems:

- A rapid splash of activity close to release time and tapering off to “nobody does it anymore”.
- People who didn’t do it in that time can’t do it because nobody wants to.

Replayability should be based on whether it’s fun or not.

Well designed content is replayed for itself – not for the extrinsic rewards it offers.

Sorry, but experience and evidence says otherwise. Interesting things do not get as much play as things which are rewarding within the framework of the game.

For example, SAB. People loved to play SAB over and over again, because it was awesome wicked fun.

Even with no rewards whatsoever, people loved to play SAB.

I did not.

Why was it removed? Because Anet saw it as a threat. SAB was intended to be a ‘cutesy’ diversion – a nod and wink to past platformers, and a sly way to include some meta humor into the game.

Oooh, oooh, are we passing out tinfoil hats now? Because I ‘know’ why it was removed much more accurately.

It was not intended to be a permanent fixture, only a development of some developer who thought it’d be fun.

I don’t think it’d be getting the same amount of play as the rest of the game if it was always “on”. And if it did, it’d be because of the stupid Trading Post prices attached to the tradable weapon skins.

ipan,

You are starting to contradict yourself. Even you have pointed out that fun content often stop being fun after youve repeated it.

You don’t want to farm, yet you want to look shiney. Impossible. You want to earn millions and sleep all day, not gonna happen.

Ashen.2907:

ipan,

You are starting to contradict yourself. Even you have pointed out that fun content often stop being fun after youve repeated it.

Yes, I could see how you might say that.

What I’m saying is that repeating content for something like a token, or some gold, or because the only reason you are doing it is because you need something that piece of content provides, is grindy and repetitive.

On the other hand, if you are doing it because you really like that particular piece of content, but you don’t necessarily need the (whatever) that it provides, then it’s not “grind”.

Unfortunately, most of the content in this game is designed as grind – it’s a hamster wheel, and it’s a well oiled, well understood principle that MMO’s have been utilizing to generate revenue for a long time.

GW2 isn’t even the worst offender, but since I like the underlying game engine in GW2 (it is awful pretty – and the combat, while not quite as “actiony” as I’d prefer – I’d actually do away with tab targeting completely, and replace it with a reticule – is still so much better than conventional MMO’s like WoW or Rift, for example) – anyway, I like much of the mechanics under the hood.

The problems in this game stem from that – the basic machinery is pretty fantastic, but the content design is sub-par.

The biggest issue being the amount of content that gets released.

It’s like playing Super Mario Bros. – you replayed levels in that game because they are awesomely fun to play, not because you needed some more coins or mushrooms to advance to the next world.

I could play just about any of the Super Mario Bros. games (except 2) repeatedly, they were fun to do over and over because the gameplay was fun.

But GW2 is not the same – much of the content you are required to repeat is not challenging or interesting – it’s just repetitive.

And yet, to me at least, those dungeons are fun. Even fun enough to repeat regardless of reward. Ive got dungeon tokens coming out the wazoo…despite not actually liking most dungeon armor/weapons.

From what you have said in multiple threads now it seems that its not a matter of poorly designed content, or grind, its that you have become bored with the repetition. Repeat just about anything often enough and it becomes tedious….even if it was amazingly fun at first.

There is no way for a game developer to get around the facts that:

1) repeating even fun content will eventually become boring for many (or most) people.

2) developers cannot produce content as fast as players consume it.

ipan.4356:

It’s like playing Super Mario Bros. – you replayed levels in that game because they are awesomely fun to play, not because you needed some more coins or mushrooms to advance to the next world.

I could play just about any of the Super Mario Bros. games (except 2) repeatedly, they were fun to do over and over because the gameplay was fun.

But GW2 is not the same – much of the content you are required to repeat is not challenging or interesting – it’s just repetitive.

And I found those games to be an annoying grind.

1) If there is enough “fun” content – then after a while, repeating it is fun again. It’s cyclical, in other words. If current dungeons were fun, you could play through them, one at a time, and by the time you started over, you wouldn’t be completely sick of them. Current dungeon design isn’t fun. I’ve mostly just run Citadel of Flame – about a dozen times – and I’ve got precisely 1 Medium Armor Gloves from it (and about 100 more tokens above that). A dozen times doing the same thing (P1) over and over, and all I have is a single skin for the gloves. That’s it. I’ve already done this dungeon 4x more than I want to.

Now, if the dungeons were 5-10 times the size, with many, many objectives (and plenty of non-objective based exploration and side quests), then this wouldn’t be as much of an issue.

But you realize that dungeons are just 5 or so rooms, each with a handful of enemies, and sometimes some non-consequential mechanic to open the door to the next room, right?

I mean, there isn’t any actual exploration going on – you literally just move from one room to the next, the cut scenes tell you what to do……..completely linear.

I thought Diablo 3 was pretty linear, but this is even worse.

The existing dungeons need to be completely redesigned, even randomized.

2) I disagree on what developers can or cannot do – obviously. I think they are capable of far more than you, and those who agree with your pov, think they are capable of.

Again, people completed Factions in a day. Took the team something on the order of a year to produce it.

Would take a payroll budget measured in the billions of dollars to keep up with them, and would lose money in the process.

Ashen.2907:

Again, people completed Factions in a day. Took the team something on the order of a year to produce it.

Would take a payroll budget measured in the billions of dollars to keep up with them, and would lose money in the process.

I disagree.

There are many tools available to the modern game developer to speed up production of content post-launch.

My guess is that they don’t have the same size team they did pre-launch (wasn’t it like 150+ people at one point?)

Not, I imagine they have a couple dozen, if that.

They invested into a strong team to get the game off the ground – then dropped it.

This is short selling.

It’s cut n’ run.

Make a profit, then ditch the game.

If they want more money from us – they have to put out more content.

It’s that simple.

It would take tens of thousands of developers to keep up with the rate at which players can (potentially) consume content. If it takes 50-100 people to produce x in a year, how many would it take to produce x in a day?

An entire team’s work for a year, completed in one day.

If it is doable , can you name a single MMO that has released an entire expansion every day for a year ? Even one example.

I’ll ask a serious question.

Why don’t they just add actually daily, instead of those same old daily we do everyday.

Obviously, the current daily we can play however we want. But playing the same old content for 2 years really kitten.

Ashen.2907:

It would take tens of thousands of developers to keep up with the rate at which players can (potentially) consume content. If it takes 50-100 people to produce x in a year, how many would it take to produce x in a day?

An entire team’s work for a year, completed in one day.

If it is doable , can you name a single MMO that has released an entire expansion every day for a year ? Even one example.

Just to give one example that entirely disproves what you are saying:

One fully randomized, procedurally generated dungeon would delay all content release related problems.

Not that that is the only thing they could do – but technically, a randomized, procedurally generated dungeon would create an ‘infinite’ amount of new content – for people to play while waiting for other things, like new dungeons, new zones, etc.

Ashen.2907:

It would take tens of thousands of developers to keep up with the rate at which players can (potentially) consume content. If it takes 50-100 people to produce x in a year, how many would it take to produce x in a day?

An entire team’s work for a year, completed in one day.

If it is doable , can you name a single MMO that has released an entire expansion every day for a year ? Even one example.

The reality is you have to put grind in mmorpg right?

But there is a difference between really boring grind, and some what more fun grind with depth.

I consider the grind in GW2 really boring grind.