Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA
The other funny thing about this thread is that it shows how the population of players is shifting to a younger age. When this game was launched EVERYONE loved JPs. They were just the coolest thing. I bet that’s because it was mostly older gamers (25 to 35) who had the disposable income to play on headstart. Older gamers grew up with platformers.
Now we have these young whippersnappers whose sad history of gaming includes EA sports titles and Call of Duty. You kids just don’t understand!
Thoshe peshky kidsh!
That the realty odd thing the kids are acting more like old men who are so set in there ways and there ideals are soo unchanging that they cant even deal with new things from a different point of view. There is something very wrong with the new gaming communally. The older a human gets the more likely they become closed minded but that not what happening when it comes to gaming. Has the next gen pop. for gaming become brainwashed by other games?
I honestly enjoy a lot of the platforming content in GW2 and it’s some of my favourite launch and post-launch content. I do think the camera could use some extra features and flexibility to support the growing amount of content of this nature, though.
The other funny thing about this thread is that it shows how the population of players is shifting to a younger age. When this game was launched EVERYONE loved JPs. They were just the coolest thing. I bet that’s because it was mostly older gamers (25 to 35) who had the disposable income to play on headstart. Older gamers grew up with platformers. It’s too much!
Now we have these young whippersnappers whose sad history of gaming includes EA sports titles and Call of Duty. You kids just don’t understand!
I’m not a kid. I grew up with platformers, i was obsessed with the spinning tower in halloween until I beat it. Over five times. But when i saw super Adventure Box, even if I appreciated the experiment, it just wasn’t a character-basted combat game I wanted to play. And now this “racing” taking an entire update.
I’ll keep saying until people stop conveniently ignoring it: I don’t mind new gameplay elements, I don’t mind platforming elements inserted into the main gameplay. As long as I’m exploring the open world, surfing Dynamic Events, WvWing or PvPing, i’m game.
Just don’t keep making mock-up platformers and racers and Hodor knows what else.
Don’t take my skills and equipment and build and class away. Otherwise, what’s the point in having them?
I know the OP wasn’t especially mature or constructive, but the guy, probably a kid, has a point.
I was only half serious. People! Lighten up!
The other funny thing about this thread is that it shows how the population of players is shifting to a younger age. When this game was launched EVERYONE loved JPs. They were just the coolest thing. I bet that’s because it was mostly older gamers (25 to 35) who had the disposable income to play on headstart. Older gamers grew up with platformers. It’s too much!
Now we have these young whippersnappers whose sad history of gaming includes EA sports titles and Call of Duty. You kids just don’t understand!
I’m not a kid. I grew up with platformers, i was obsessed with the spinning tower in halloween until I beat it. Over five times. But when i saw super Adventure Box, even if I appreciated the experiment, it just wasn’t a character-basted combat game I wanted to play. And now this “racing” taking an entire update.
I’ll keep saying until people stop conveniently ignoring it: I don’t mind new gameplay elements, I don’t mind platforming elements inserted into the main gameplay. As long as I’m exploring the open world, surfing Dynamic Events, WvWing or PvPing, i’m game.
Just don’t keep making mock-up platformers and racers and Hodor knows what else.
Don’t take my skills and equipment and build and class away. Otherwise, what’s the point in having them?I know the OP wasn’t especially mature or constructive, but the guy, probably a kid, has a point.
You’re part of the minority of players who think that way. There’s another big thread in this forum about the pros and cons of temporary content. Everyone seems to agree that the content we’re getting is great, the question is just should it be permanent or not.
GW2 is just not an RPG anymore and no one seems to have a problem with that.
Has the next gen pop. for gaming become brainwashed by other games?
Spoiled more like. Older gamers tend to see that something is actually better than what we used to have.
Well said, Harbard.
I also signed up to play an MMORPG.
There’s a lot more I could add, but there have been many on this thread that have expressed the same sentiment. Harbard, thank you for your voice here, you echo my feelings and my guild’s feeling very well in your posts.
I feel for you…because genres evolve. What used to be an RPG is nothing like any MMO really. MMOs are TERRIBLE RPGs. I’m an RPG guy from a long time ago and this is the first mmoRPG I can play for any length of time.
The genre is evolving. Rift had some jumping. SWToR had some jumping and I suspect future games will have a lot more of it. Genres evolve all the time. If you don’t like the way it’s evolving, it will simply evolve without you.
How far will the game evolve if a-net continue to evolve along a path ( going by this post) a large % don’t want? will gw2 be another rift? a game that started great but is now laughed at.
Say your playing rift and most respond …Rift lol
EDIT: What is interesting is thou both the games you mention are fail.
And you think they failed because they had jumping? I think they failed because they had nothing to offer but gear grind. I know someone personally who loved Rift, took a break and couldn’t catch up with his guild after the update. He just couldn’t spend the time and got tired of playing alone even though he wanted to play with his guild. It had nothing to do with jumping.
SWToR didn’t fail because of jumping either. Nice try though.
I didn’t say either did, Nice try thou:P.
Thinking on what makes a good game and looking back at the best there has been, wow comes to mind, at it’s best it had over 20 million players, peeps who paid to play,
i know nothing will ever come close to the mighty Warcraft, but this i do know, filling gw2 with bad platform jumping sure wont.
A-net is a business like any other and im sure they wouldn’t say no to some more customers, but i believe gw2 is on a decline even now with wow being as bad as it is ( and it is bad) ill wager a-net would love to have even half the player base wow has,
now a-net are not stupid they are after all devs who worked for blizzard,
they must know a thing or two from the time spent there, they left as were unhappy with the direction blizzard was going, only for blizzard with wow to become the huge success it was, i think 800million made in a year, blizzard now passed this with mw2 in 16 days making over 1 billion.
Perhaps the devs should return to blizzard as i said before and recap, learn again as taking what was a fab game gw1 and marketing the sequel with dynamic events and a good living story then change the game almost to a platformer, i guess thinking this will draw in more custom? keep the current player base happy ? tbh i really have no idea what they are thinking.
(edited by mesme.5028)
So wait why cant an mmorpg have platforming? Should we fault mmorpgs that lets you go into first person because its an mmorpg and not a fps and or melee game? Can we fault an mmorpg for having puzzle because it seem your guys view an mmorpg can only be an mmorpg and nothing else and NO ONE knows what an mmorpg is other then small to larges turn base combat that has very rigid rules of how one can move during and out side of combat.
There is a very bad idea of things must be one way and no other way can such a thing be that is what destroying mmorpg and video games over all. If this keep up for both your views on life and in the gaming industry you will end up alone and only saying to your self how good it use to be and forever being in a mind set of regret.
Don’t get me wrong when i say I want an MMORPG. It’s not like i want raids, gear gating, +stat, timesinks, static world… heck I’m even recently aware of people who miss “the old days of corpse recovery” <cringe>
It’s just that it’s getting too crazy, too unfocused. If it keeps going this way, the game doesn’t even makes sense within itself: Choose class, skill up, level up, gear up and do now it doesn’t matter that much because half of the content are jumping puzzles and minigames. They’re currently such a big thing in the game they’re stealing its character, not to mention production resources, and they’re totally disconnected from the game’s core!
It’s already a game about PvE, WvW and sPvP, all centered on classes and combat skills, it can’t afford to be ALSO a game about JPs and big minigames, races, 8-bit platforming etc. Especially when they take such a significant portion of the game and the updates and when they have no relation whatsoever to combat skills.
This is supposed to be a really small fraction of the game if it’s supposed to work.
A game about everything is a game about nothing.
(edited by Harbard.5738)
I think there’s a place in GW2 for content requiring a lot of manual dexterity. I just don’t think that the meat of every update should require this type of play, however. By meat, I mean something other than the fluff, such as kill x Aetherblades, dance before x effigies, etc.
Finished the achievement for the Quartz node last night, and did so by going after the kites in the jumping puzzles. Jumping puzzles I had no idea existed. At all. To be honest, I was blown away. What an absolute blast it was! You don’t even need to finish some of them to get to the kite, but I have to admit I’m tempted now to take some time in the future and try to visit all the known jumping puzzles.
You see what they’re doing? They’re getting people into the world to places they’ve never visited before. It was like playing new zones again for the first time. Definitely fun.
No, they’re getting folks like us, who knew about and have already completed this content, to re-run existing content. They’re getting folks like me, a dedicated PvE RPGer, to force themselves into WvW and PvP content for achievements required to complete a non-PvP event. They’re introducing encapsulated hamster wheels to keep us occupied while they try to fix some of the larger game issues.
Haven’t you noticed that each event brings with it an event-specific currency, which can’t really be used for anything outside the event and which typically doesn’t do much but purchase cosmetic or inconsequential items? Or that your benefit for completing the event has little or no actual impact on the world or your game? Or that many folks can simply buy what they want from the event by using RMTs, because the regularly-released events have with them a revenue bump?
I don’t know your opinion, but it seems that GW2 turns into a platform game with the lately content. That wouldn’t be a problem, but I am sorry to say, GW2 platform jumping is one of the crappiest if not the ultimate crap regarding jumping platformers on the game market today or in recent gaming history.
I really REALLY didn’t want to agree with you but I must if I’m going to be honest. The combat in GW2 is very solid but the movement is just like a kittened baby with a loaded diaper. On top of that: It’s usually encumbering. Like when you jump right next to a wall or other surface you don’t make a full height you get interupted. It’s stupendously annoying and for some reason I’ve been putting up with since headstart.
So wait why cant an mmorpg have platforming? Should we fault mmorpgs that lets you go into first person because its an mmorpg and not a fps and or melee game? Can we fault an mmorpg for having puzzle because it seem your guys view an mmorpg can only be an mmorpg and nothing else and NO ONE knows what an mmorpg is other then small to larges turn base combat that has very rigid rules of how one can move during and out side of combat.
There is a very bad idea of things must be one way and no other way can such a thing be that is what destroying mmorpg and video games over all. If this keep up for both your views on life and in the gaming industry you will end up alone and only saying to your self how good it use to be and forever being in a mind set of regret.Don’t get me wrong when i say I want an MMORPG. It’s not like i want raids, gear gating, +stat, timesinks, static world… heck I’m even recently aware of people who miss “the old days of corpse recovery” <cringe>
It’s just that it’s getting too crazy, too unfocused. If it keeps going this way, the game doesn’t even makes sense within itself: Choose class, skill up, level up, gear up and do now it doesn’t matter that much because half of the content are jumping puzzles and minigames. They’re currently such a big thing in the game they’re stealing its character, not to mention production resources, and they’re totally disconnected from the game’s core!
It’s already a game about PvE, WvW and sPvP, all centered on classes and combat skills, it can’t afford to be ALSO a game about JPs and big minigames, races, 8-bit platforming etc. Especially when they take such a significant portion of the game and the updates and when they have no relation whatsoever to combat skills.
This is supposed to be a really small fraction of the game if it’s supposed to work.
A game about everything is a game about nothing.
You know (commenting on your last comment) a tv show about nothing was realty good and as long as it was about nothing ppl loved it so maybe that the idea. There are other games that are about nothing but ppl love them to death. The game has a story but you do not NEED to know it you can just have fun odd ideal in an mmorpg but GW2 is about thinking outside of a box that is in a box.
Those that say that JP are horrible, could I get a few names ? Because Skipping Stone cannot be compared to Vizier Tower.
The other funny thing about this thread is that it shows how the population of players is shifting to a younger age. When this game was launched EVERYONE loved JPs. They were just the coolest thing. I bet that’s because it was mostly older gamers (25 to 35) who had the disposable income to play on headstart. Older gamers grew up with platformers. It’s too much!
Now we have these young whippersnappers whose sad history of gaming includes EA sports titles and Call of Duty. You kids just don’t understand!
I’m not a kid. I grew up with platformers, i was obsessed with the spinning tower in halloween until I beat it. Over five times. But when i saw super Adventure Box, even if I appreciated the experiment, it just wasn’t a character-basted combat game I wanted to play. And now this “racing” taking an entire update.
I’ll keep saying until people stop conveniently ignoring it: I don’t mind new gameplay elements, I don’t mind platforming elements inserted into the main gameplay. As long as I’m exploring the open world, surfing Dynamic Events, WvWing or PvPing, i’m game.
Just don’t keep making mock-up platformers and racers and Hodor knows what else.
Don’t take my skills and equipment and build and class away. Otherwise, what’s the point in having them?I know the OP wasn’t especially mature or constructive, but the guy, probably a kid, has a point.
You’re part of the minority of players who think that way. There’s another big thread in this forum about the pros and cons of temporary content. Everyone seems to agree that the content we’re getting is great, the question is just should it be permanent or not.
GW2 is just not an RPG anymore and no one seems to have a problem with that.
I’m not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion. Many people think the story is shallow, the gameplay is derivative, and the content is rushed and generally buggy upon release.
Many people want the content patches to come at longer intervals so that the content can feel more fleshed out, the story can feel more connected to the rest of the world, and fewer bugs.
I feel for you…because genres evolve. What used to be an RPG is nothing like any MMO really. MMOs are TERRIBLE RPGs. I’m an RPG guy from a long time ago and this is the first mmoRPG I can play for any length of time.
The genre is evolving. Rift had some jumping. SWToR had some jumping and I suspect future games will have a lot more of it. Genres evolve all the time. If you don’t like the way it’s evolving, it will simply evolve without you.
I don’t usually like legitimizing personal attacks like this by responding.
However, there is an issue that is important for the future of the game, and that issue deserves a response.
I, too, am an old RPG player for close to a decade and a half. I’ve helped alpha and beta a fair amount of games, and sat in on a lot of internal discussions over the years, and would like to think as a retired software developer (Fortune 20 company), that I’ve contributed. I’m a big proponent of the genre evolving and have left countless posts and discussions (both publically and internally to devs) over the years advocating such, including on this board.
The problem here isn’t that the game is evolving more in the direction of an MMO or an RPG, but rather devolving in the direction of Nintendo-style play. The best examples of “old-school RPGs” that I can think of are the gold standards set by the Infinity Engine (BGII: SoA) and subsequent Forgotten Realms games like NWN. Tremendous quantities of these games focused on exploration and problem-solving. The Forsaken Halls open mini-dungeon is a great example of the classic “Dark-room” problem-solving style play that was the hallmark of these games. In BGII, there were plenty of puzzle rooms where you only even began fighting mobs if you did something horribly wrong. These games were deeply immersive with well-written characters, including those that the player interacted with in the environment. The choices that the player made, including in seemingly inconsequential dialogues impacted the game world at a time when MMOs were in their infancy.
This sort of creative problem-solving, whether it’s finding the right lever or finding the right NPC to talk to in a crowded city in order to uncover a secret plot, being kidnapped and disguised as a Drow and hauled through the underdark, etcetera, are the hallmark of old school RPG. They were immersive and required thinking.
What many members of the GW2 community are concerned about is not the relative return to old school RPG encounters and immersion compared to recent MMOs. What we are deeply concerned about is that much of the new jump-puzzle related content has nothing to do with either MMOs or RPGs. MMOs are vast, persistent worlds populated by players and NPCs alike where a community of players blends with the game world to create an experience that goes beyond what’s possible in a campaign-driven single player game. RPGs are role-playing games where you the player can slide into an immersive world and feel like you are making a difference in that world.
Jump puzzles are a return to old Nintendo-style, single-player hopping from one rock to another to get the chest at the end
Most old-school RPGs did not even have a mechanic that allowed characters to jump. The old Infinity Engine games certainly didn’t. Short-range screen blackouts and cutscene-style teleports were required to even move characters across a chasm. Instead, the player was asked to think: strategically, tactically, creatively, to problem-solve their way through situations that sometimes had heavy combat, and sometimes just presented a challenge for an explorer to get through. But the point was that they didn’t take twitchy reflexes, and they were never in isolation from the game world.
Evolutionarily speaking, many players, myself included, have expressed their concern that jump puzzles are not evolving the MMORPG genre but are grafting in a kind of gameplay that harms both the MMO and RPG aspects of the game. That’s not evolving role-playing or community-building content, it’s replacing both of them with single-player twitch-reflex movement games that don’t appeal to me or many other players. I don’t personally have a problem with people who love jump puzzles. What I and many other players are frustrated by is that this niche style of content is not only potentially crowding out content that is both MMO and RPG, it is increasingly being forced on everyone (having it linked to rewards/achievements.) This does not even address the issue of whether technically the engine can properly support this style gameplay for all players, latencies, and machines.
Evolutionarily speaking, many players, myself included, have expressed their concern that jump puzzles are not evolving the MMORPG genre but are grafting in a kind of gameplay that harms both the MMO and RPG aspects of the game. That’s not evolving role-playing or community-building content, it’s replacing both of them with single-player twitch-reflex movement games that don’t appeal to me or many other players. I don’t personally have a problem with people who love jump puzzles. What I and many other players are frustrated by is that this niche style of content is not only potentially crowding out content that is both MMO and RPG, it is increasingly being forced on everyone (having it linked to rewards/achievements.) This does not even address the issue of whether technically the engine can properly support this style gameplay for all players, latencies, and machines.
This is good explanation. No one would care if the jumping puzzles would be an auxiliary content with fluffy rewards. They could add hundreds of JPs in the game, this would be good to enrich the environment, but don’t force them on players adding achievement rewards to them, especially now when the achievement points matter.
I understand they can’t do something very related to the end of the personal story, but they could link it to the order you have joined and every month add something permanent which will be addressed to all characters not only those who finished the whole storyline. Many people play the story up till the point they join an order.
Expand those stories with the order in mind and bring them once a month.
I’m not too fond of jump wars myself, especially the ones that kill you for screwing up. What is this? 1987?
Good memories…
I, too, am an old RPG player for close to a decade and a half. I’ve helped alpha and beta a fair amount of games, and sat in on a lot of internal discussions over the years, and would like to think as a retired software developer (Fortune 20 company), that I’ve contributed. I’m a big proponent of the genre evolving and have left countless posts and discussions (both publically and internally to devs) over the years advocating such, including on this board.
The problem here isn’t that the game is evolving more in the direction of an MMO or an RPG, but rather devolving in the direction of Nintendo-style play. The best examples of “old-school RPGs” that I can think of are the gold standards set by the Infinity Engine (BGII: SoA) and subsequent Forgotten Realms games like NWN. Tremendous quantities of these games focused on exploration and problem-solving. The Forsaken Halls open mini-dungeon is a great example of the classic “Dark-room” problem-solving style play that was the hallmark of these games. In BGII, there were plenty of puzzle rooms where you only even began fighting mobs if you did something horribly wrong. These games were deeply immersive with well-written characters, including those that the player interacted with in the environment. The choices that the player made, including in seemingly inconsequential dialogues impacted the game world at a time when MMOs were in their infancy.
This sort of creative problem-solving, whether it’s finding the right lever or finding the right NPC to talk to in a crowded city in order to uncover a secret plot, being kidnapped and disguised as a Drow and hauled through the underdark, etcetera, are the hallmark of old school RPG. They were immersive and required thinking.
What many members of the GW2 community are concerned about is not the relative return to old school RPG encounters and immersion compared to recent MMOs. What we are deeply concerned about is that much of the new jump-puzzle related content has nothing to do with either MMOs or RPGs. MMOs are vast, persistent worlds populated by players and NPCs alike where a community of players blends with the game world to create an experience that goes beyond what’s possible in a campaign-driven single player game. RPGs are role-playing games where you the player can slide into an immersive world and feel like you are making a difference in that world.
Jump puzzles are a return to old Nintendo-style, single-player hopping from one rock to another to get the chest at the end
Most old-school RPGs did not even have a mechanic that allowed characters to jump. The old Infinity Engine games certainly didn’t. Short-range screen blackouts and cutscene-style teleports were required to even move characters across a chasm. Instead, the player was asked to think: strategically, tactically, creatively, to problem-solve their way through situations that sometimes had heavy combat, and sometimes just presented a challenge for an explorer to get through. But the point was that they didn’t take twitchy reflexes, and they were never in isolation from the game world.
Evolutionarily speaking, many players, myself included, have expressed their concern that jump puzzles are not evolving the MMORPG genre but are grafting in a kind of gameplay that harms both the MMO and RPG aspects of the game. That’s not evolving role-playing or community-building content, it’s replacing both of them with single-player twitch-reflex movement games that don’t appeal to me or many other players. I don’t personally have a problem with people who love jump puzzles. What I and many other players are frustrated by is that this niche style of content is not only potentially crowding out content that is both MMO and RPG, it is increasingly being forced on everyone (having it linked to rewards/achievements.) This does not even address the issue of whether technically the engine can properly support this style gameplay for all players, latencies, and machines.
Great post, totally agree on all points. I especially agree with how, in the games of old, narratives were often delivered through critical thinking challenges.
The proper narrative design seems to take a backseat in most games these days and it’s obviously escaped the content designers of the living story. Given the tight release schedule of the LS and the fragmentation of ANet’s content design teams, I don’t see them making any strides in releasing meaningful and deep narratives. Story writing is hard and often bottlenecks development if its given priority. That’s what I hear, anyway. However, if JPs and the occasional dungeon are things that are within their capabilities ANet should at the very least try fix the engine and camera. >.< “Do it right or don’t do it at all.”
Well said, Harbard.
I also signed up to play an MMORPG.
There’s a lot more I could add, but there have been many on this thread that have expressed the same sentiment. Harbard, thank you for your voice here, you echo my feelings and my guild’s feeling very well in your posts.
I feel for you…because genres evolve. What used to be an RPG is nothing like any MMO really. MMOs are TERRIBLE RPGs. I’m an RPG guy from a long time ago and this is the first mmoRPG I can play for any length of time.
The genre is evolving. Rift had some jumping. SWToR had some jumping and I suspect future games will have a lot more of it. Genres evolve all the time. If you don’t like the way it’s evolving, it will simply evolve without you.
How far will the game evolve if a-net continue to evolve along a path ( going by this post) a large % don’t want? will gw2 be another rift? a game that started great but is now laughed at.
Say your playing rift and most respond …Rift lol
EDIT: What is interesting is thou both the games you mention are fail.
And you think they failed because they had jumping? I think they failed because they had nothing to offer but gear grind. I know someone personally who loved Rift, took a break and couldn’t catch up with his guild after the update. He just couldn’t spend the time and got tired of playing alone even though he wanted to play with his guild. It had nothing to do with jumping.
SWToR didn’t fail because of jumping either. Nice try though.
Most games that fail, don’t fail because of “one” thing. They usually fail because players leave. And why they leave will vary depending on the type of player.
Although players leave games for reasons of their own, it is often it is an accumulation of things that build up and then the “last straw” happens. One thing to keep in mind though is that even minor irritants can contribute to this. It could be that there are a lot of little irritants that bug you but aren’t enough to drive you away. Then the “big” irritant rears its ugly head and adds to the cumulative total of irritants.
We all know players are motivated by different goals and annoyed by different things. We all know you can put us into categories by what motivates us to play, what we enjoy, and what we mildly dislike, and what absolutely irritates us to the max.
Whether a game keeps enough players to remain a healthy population or not depends on the enjoyment/irritant ratio for the different types of players.
Unfortunately, for most games when populations are very high and cash shops are raking in the money, there is a tendency to ignore the irritants and to a certain extent the motivations. Then if populations decline, suddenly there is an attitude change and more attention to the irritants that were previously trivialized. Usually it is at the “too little, too late” point.
I know that for a game to be fun, it needs a enough players for the world to be populated and all areas of the game (pve open world, dungeons, sPvP, WvW, etc) to be bustling with players. For that reason, I want the enjoyment/irritation to weight heavy on the enjoyment side as much as feasibly possible for all the different types of players.
This can be difficult because what makes it on my list as an enjoyment might make it to your list as an irritant.
This is completely true. I just pointed out the three of the newest MMOs have jumping type platforming of some type in them and I suspect all new ones from this point will have some of that. It’s the evolution of the genre.
And people who are attached to what was are bound to be disappointed.
There are people walking around saying how UO and EQ 1 were the greatest games of all time and those people, playing today’s MMOs are going to say these games fall flat. And for those people I’m sure they do.
But to say the MMOs I’m bringing up are considered failures (and I wouldn’t consider Rift a failure anyway since it’s still making money), implies that jumping puzzles had something to do with that.
It’s a red herring I wasn’t going to let sit there without pointing out how misleading it is.
The problem here isn’t that the game is evolving more in the direction of an MMO or an RPG, but rather devolving in the direction of Nintendo-style play. The best examples of “old-school RPGs” that I can think of are the gold standards set by the Infinity Engine (BGII: SoA) and subsequent Forgotten Realms games like NWN. Tremendous quantities of these games focused on exploration and problem-solving. The Forsaken Halls open mini-dungeon is a great example of the classic “Dark-room” problem-solving style play that was the hallmark of these games. In BGII, there were plenty of puzzle rooms where you only even began fighting mobs if you did something horribly wrong. These games were deeply immersive with well-written characters, including those that the player interacted with in the environment. The choices that the player made, including in seemingly inconsequential dialogues impacted the game world at a time when MMOs were in their infancy.
The issue I feel is that we can’t ever go back to those days. With the advent of the internet it’s far too easy to bypass them with guides. It’s really noticable in GW2. There is a fair amount of story there, and there are some puzzles. But I get the feeling that any content that is based on this now will last no time at all, due to the fact people will log onto Dulfy, and just follow the step by step guide.
I don’t think we will see a return to it until AI gets high enough that quality content (not just sprawling Diablo style random dungeons) can be generated on the fly to the extent that making Guides is nigh on impossible.
I’m actually enjoying what GW2 is turning into, it feels like Final Fantasy VII a bit, where you had the leveling up aspect and the fights, but then you had a whole lot of things tagged on to mess around with. As a avid Dungeon runner, I definitely want more of that type of content or reworks of certain dungeons, F&F and AR added to fractals, higher level fractals opened up. But I don’t mind having other wierd things to do every couple of weeks.
I really enjoyed the racing, and the Dragon Ball. Though I wish they would keep them in the game on a rotation with things like Keg Brawl. And link this with dailies to keep the population up.
EG.
Mon – Keg Brawl + KB based Daily Achievement
Tues – Dragon Ball + DB based Daily Achievement
Wed – Zephir Sprint + ZS based Daily Achievement
Thur – Crab Toss + TC based Daily Achievement
etc
This would focus players on different games each day so the servers aren’t dead, while adding variety so people don’t get bored. Mix it around a bit so they don’t always fall on the same day and bobs your uncle.
I also feel that the changes to AP are good, it gives you something to work towards in a game that lacks vertical progression, it needed something, as other than go for Legendary there was very little to work towards if you didn’t like this months skins.
(edited by Ratty.5176)
The problem here isn’t that the game is evolving more in the direction of an MMO or an RPG, but rather devolving in the direction of Nintendo-style play. The best examples of “old-school RPGs” that I can think of are the gold standards set by the Infinity Engine (BGII: SoA) and subsequent Forgotten Realms games like NWN. Tremendous quantities of these games focused on exploration and problem-solving. The Forsaken Halls open mini-dungeon is a great example of the classic “Dark-room” problem-solving style play that was the hallmark of these games. In BGII, there were plenty of puzzle rooms where you only even began fighting mobs if you did something horribly wrong. These games were deeply immersive with well-written characters, including those that the player interacted with in the environment. The choices that the player made, including in seemingly inconsequential dialogues impacted the game world at a time when MMOs were in their infancy.
The issue I feel is that we can’t ever go back to those days. With the advent of the internet it’s far too easy to bypass them with guides. It’s really noticable in GW2. There is a fair amount of story there, and there are some puzzles. But I get the feeling that any content that is based on this now will last no time at all, due to the fact people will log onto Dulfy, and just follow the step by step guide.
TSW has many challenges in it that require thinking through and even provided an in-game browser so players could do research on the internet. What is ironic is that when using the browser to find answers, the first thing that pops up in just about every case is a walk-through on a fansite.
The issue I feel is that we can’t ever go back to those days. With the advent of the internet it’s far too easy to bypass them with guides. It’s really noticable in GW2. There is a fair amount of story there, and there are some puzzles. But I get the feeling that any content that is based on this now will last no time at all, due to the fact people will log onto Dulfy, and just follow the step by step guide.
I don’t think we will see a return to it until AI gets high enough that quality content (not just sprawling Diablo style random dungeons) can be generated on the fly to the extent that making Guides is nigh on impossible.
Very good points on people using spoilers to blow through content, and that ultimately the fix to that is AI which does not allow rote or practiced responses.
But there’s another point which is important to me as a customer (player):
I buy an MMO to adventure, sometimes solo and sometimes with friends, in an immersive world. I commit time to learning not just a particular world, but to learning and advancing my character, my presence in that world.
In the next room over, I have both a Playstation 3 and a Nintendo Wii. Their power cords are not connected to the wall. After trying both, I prefer an immersive MMO world, thank you.
The MMO has both a server somewhere across the internet and a client, which are exchanging protocol to stay reasonably in sync on where I am and what I am doing. The representations of the world in client and server are mostly congruent, but they do deviate and there are artifacts in game play which result. Roughly speaking, it’s good enough for the client and server to update each other every second or so. And if my screen shows me 5 feet away from where the server thinks I am at any instant, it doesn’t make a lot of difference.
The Playstation or Nintendo has a single piece of software, only one view of the world, and can be precise to within a pixel and is quite capable of updating my position at frame rate (sub millisecond response and tens or hundreds of updates per second). Position is as precise as the ground coordinate system.
This means the Playstation or Nintendo is fundamentally much more fit for twitch content, and for the kind of precise movement or positioning one sees in a jump puzzle, than an MMO engine is.
Just as an FPS, with a much smaller world that does much more frequent updates of the position, direction, and action of each player than an MMO does.
Likewise, an MMO (like GW2) uses the same engine to support open world adventuring, close combat around bosses and in WvW, twitch response like sPvP, jump puzzles, Nintendo-like content like SAB and other recent events, and the like. Because it’s massive and they’re paying by the megabyte for data movement, communication with the server has to be short and infrequent, hence we get culling and other effects.
So, I’ve chosen a game whose base content is what I came here to play, and whose engine is not just fit but tuned for what I came here to play.
And I play at a rate that has not exhausted the content of the game yet, and will use maps but use spoilers only infrequently.
So why is it that the existence of a set of people who blow through content and move on to another game — really an un-servable population in an MMO because you can never create enough content — even relevant? ArenaNet should accept that the revenue from such customers is sporadic and they are not a source of profitable and stable revenue over multiple years, and go focus somewhere else where it’s possible to make money.
Using GW2 to host content for which the engine is only marginally fit has short term novelty value, but shifting direction to deliver a hybrid MMO / Nintendo game seems like something which would neither satisfy the customer who wanted an MMO (me) nor the customer who wanted a Nintendo game, because it is doing neither well.
Doing neither well is a recipe for failure.
Hence the concern over the long term consequences to GW2 of its apparent direction.
Yea saying that it is a platformer game is a huge exaggeration. But this last patch has way to much of a jp emphasis for me to really like.
i think jumping ultimately should serve to have sense, i mean the problem in gw1 was that in order to exit from a fence you had to find a door and it didn’t make any sense because a little jump would do. jumping should be a way to break barriers in the world and feel it like it is more open with no barrier put there because they are needed.
look at skyrim, there was no barrier at all in the open world, the only barrier used made very much sense.
but when jumping become the core of the game, and even the profession you chose doesn’t matter anymore, what is the difference between my mesmer and super mario?
in dragon ball arena, super adventure box, mad king clock tower, wintersday jumping puzzle, wintersday mini pvp game, halloween mini pvp game and lastly the sanctum sprint i wasn’t my profession anymore, i was just somebody with same skills and stat like anybody else and my profession couldn’t do any difference, only the lag made the difference and the pc performance.
and that is a way to try to be fair but fail miserably. if i have to defeat other players in a race we should gather around a wii and have all the same performance, based on the same internet connection…
don’t get me wrong, i can still enjoy this new content but it’s not the reason i play on line. and to be honest i complete it only because i want reward and achievement, if it was optional (no reward and no achievement and no title) i would completely skip most of them, maybe i would give it just some try
To be honest, I think any jumping puzzle content is too much. Then again, I thought the lack of jumping in GW1 was fine.
Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t ask for any jumping content to be removed, I’m just not enthused about doing it.
I think jumping puzzles are a lot of fun. Especially Super Adventure Box was great, because it was accessible for both experienced players, and for players that are less good at platforming. And thus better balanced. I also greatly enjoyed the Mad King’s Clocktower, although I can understand how that one was a bit too hardcore for the average player. We all want to complete a lot of the achievements, and I can understand when some players feel obstructed by a part of the game they are not very good at. Part of that is lack of skill on the part of the player, but another part is simply bad mechanics.
Whenever I failed at Super Mario Brothers, I rarely got upset, because I knew it was my own fault. I messed up. With GW2, I very often feel that it is the game’s fault. Poor visibility is often a problem. And also unreliable controls. I think they should address those problems.
Arguably MMO is not RPG though…and jumping is a combat mechanic so, I don’t know. When they’re making beautiful vistas like this, let people jump/climb. What is so wrong with that?
This thread shows that there are a lot of people that enjoy the jumping content, even though there are a lot that don’t.
Clearly, the game is working as intended. Some people will like it, some won’t.
It certainly isn’t “turning” into anything unpleasant as the OP suggests. And screw his C rating.
Strange! I see instead that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
i think the problem is when there is a new update with a gem scavenger hunt all based on skills your profession normally doesn’t have and require no thinking only skilled jumping with no lag.
the halloween scavenger hunt for the mad memories didn’t require any jump at all and was wonderful to undertake!
Strange! I rather see that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
Granted, I’m in the ‘dislike jumping’ camp. I however have heard of people enjoying jumping content and quite a few who would enjoy it if camera issues were fixed. I wouldn’t say it’s an even split, but there are camps on either side.
Strange! I see instead that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
I dislike greatly (don’t hate) jumping puzzles that are found in the open world and have no intention of finishing all of them. I absolutely love they way you can jump with the elements. Don’t really know why.
Strange! I see instead that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
I actually counted.
About 30 people like it, about 39 don’t like it. It ’s pretty close to a 50/50.
where did you put me, because i started saying i enjoyed some of them and finished saying i do it only because i “must” for rewards and titles ^^
where did you put me, because i started saying i enjoyed some of them and finished saying i do it only because i “must” for rewards and titles ^^
In the second :P
correct i made up my mind and i definitely don’t like them anymore^^
Strange! I see instead that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
Strange! I only see what I want to see!
(edited by Wolfheart.1938)
The main reason I hate, loathe and despise all JP in GW2 is the crappy camera.
What’s that? You want to look where you’re going before you jump? NO, sorry that rock overhead MUST be zoomed in 100%!
What’s that? You want to be a Norn male and do JP?…hahahahah try againThat is why I don’t do 1/5 of the content that is GW2…JP!!!!
I admit it sucks, but as a Norn Guardians who has done them all. It is possible.
Strange! I see instead that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
Strange! I only see what I want to see!
I agree that you only see what you want to see. Good call.
Oh for god’s sake you are killcannon.2576 don’t try to imply I’m not impartial plz
(edited by Wolfheart.1938)
i think the problem is when there is a new update with a gem scavenger hunt all based on skills your profession normally doesn’t have and require no thinking only skilled jumping with no lag.
the halloween scavenger hunt for the mad memories didn’t require any jump at all and was wonderful to undertake!
Except that you barely need any skilled jumping with no lag. All you need is to aim a little green circle correctly.
" Older gamers grew up with platformers." …
You kidding me? I hated them back in the days to…not to mention them now.
The 80% of the reson they existed in the first place, was the lack of technology to create something more detailed or complicated. The rest was : Video games are games so they should be made for younger ppl.
We dont live in the Amiga age now….and the amiga age players play Mario if they want to play with nostalgic platform games….not Gw2 -_-
So… Ronah… you and gravity have met I see.
Lmfao.
They really need to look up games like Price of Persia, Assassin Creed, Ratchet and Clank, Tomb Rider and learn from them. Only in the ’80s you were seeing your character jumping like a dummy in its feet, all the rest use some grabbing to avoid near the edge jumping fails
I know what you mean, but your mindset regarding this statement shows a lack of understanding in how games are built that I feel I must point out. They can’t simply change the way GW2 feels and plays to match one of those games. That’s like asking to hot swap the frame of a Lamborghini Diablo VT with a 747 airplane. Two completely different vehicles with two completely different everythings. The best you can hope for is for them to continue refining what they already have, but it’s unlikely it will ever be 100% perfect, and even less likely it will become exactly like a different game.
Strange! I rather see that there are a lot of people that DON’T enjoy the jumping content, not the other way around.
Granted, I’m in the ‘dislike jumping’ camp. I however have heard of people enjoying jumping content and quite a few who would enjoy it if camera issues were fixed. I wouldn’t say it’s an even split, but there are camps on either side.
I for one LOVE jumping puzzles. I agree they can be frustrating, but that is true of any type of challenging content. I think they are a brilliant diversion from the normal “run around killing things” gameplay. They give the world a sense of mystery and exploration, and a different kind of challenge to overcome.
I haven’t had many camera angle problems, but I don’t usually play a norn. If anything, I just move the camera slightly and find an acceptable angle.
They really need to look up games like Price of Persia, Assassin Creed, Ratchet and Clank, Tomb Rider and learn from them. Only in the ’80s you were seeing your character jumping like a dummy in its feet, all the rest use some grabbing to avoid near the edge jumping fails
Those aren’t mmos, but it would be nice to see grabbing and climbing implemented.
I really enjoy the jump puzzles in this game. They’re one of my favorite aspects of gw2. And to be perfectly honest, I don’t see why so many people are so upset about them. And the BotFW? Okay yeah, it has a lot of jumping stuff. But it’s ONE patch. I mean, Aetherblades ended with a jump puzzle (that’s permanent btw, no rush in completing it), but for the most part the Aetherblade story was not about jumping. It had its little storyline with missions, pve map content, a dungeon, whatever. Just because it ended with a jump puzzle it’s like that’s all anyone remembers from it. I get that this current living story may not be fun for people who hate jumping, but it’s a really creative and cool area. And it’s a nice treat for the people who do enjoy jumping.
If that many people didn’t like them, I must have hallucinated the number of people doing the Sky Pirates Puzzle in Gendarran Fields. There were a TON of them. Not like a dozen…but a ton. Even to make multiple overflows even.
I know some people don’t like jumping puzzles, but I think a lot of people do. And I’ve also met people who didn’t like them at first and then warmed to them.
The 2 things I don’t like about the jumping puzzle
a) overhead rock / tunnel blocking camera.
b) platform collision boxes do not represent actual shapes you see.
I hate b more than a. A lot of the platforms are modeled and spaced in a way that you can barely make that jump, but visually the platform are either much smaller / larger than what the collision boxes are, causing u to miscalculate and fail that jump. For example, in Malchor’s leap, north of Cathedral of Eternal Radiance there is a vista on a little peninsula. Occasionally an ori node spawn there and you have to jump to a certain platform to get it. The last jump is a pointy rock which is very difficult to get to. Visually the character shouldn’t be able to make that jump but somehow the character will just “snap into position” when you got it right, as if it was an exploit in some 80s 8bit video games.
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