Guild Wars 2

Galen Grey.4709:

That doesnt mean its just dungeons and raid but means that the majority of it is dungeons and raids. There are other things of course like dailies / repeatable quests etc.. The point is gw2 gives you the entire game to repeat, other mmos give you a small subset of their content to repeat.

It’s worth mentioning that those “other MMOs” can put a lot of effort into that small “subset” of content. The most fun I had with WoW was running Karazhan alot. Sure, I repeated it often, but it was a huge place with fun and challenging fights.

When does that new content become old content though?

After I play it, of course. It’s that first playthrough of it that sways my decision: If I’m going to choose between grinding something new or something old, the “new” path would feel “fresh” the most. Even when it’s just that first playthrough. I havent exhausted the theoretical “new” content, and I have exhausted the old content.

And maybe the new content does something interesting that makes me want to spend a lot of time in it.

If I get to play a dynamic event I only played once 1 year ago and it branches in a different way or scales in a different way can that be considered new content cause honestly to me it would feel newer content then the new dungeon I already did 5 times this week.

Yeah I tried that awhile ago, but the lack of depth and lack of difficulty with the old content made replaying it hard to do, essentially making the content feel homogenized and indifferent. It just wasn’t interesting enough to go back to.

Well then you’re in the correct game because you’re free to ignore ascended gear you cannot do that in a lot of other MMOs…

True, but I do want them. But the only way to get them is through grind. That’s my issue. The only way to get them is not fun.

I’m sure there’ll be a point where the interest in hunting for them will drop and they’ll make them kitten easy to get, but until then I’m bummed that the only way to grab one is not fun for me.

And who cares what other MMOs do? I care about what this one does.

gw2 might not be perfect but it and gw1 are still the closest games I know that come to what you want.

GW1 was (keyword: was) far closer to what I wanted in a game than what GW2 has become. But that’s for another thread.

Smith.1826:

It’s worth mentioning that those “other MMOs” can put a lot of effort into that small “subset” of content. The most fun I had with WoW was running Karazhan alot. Sure, I repeated it often, but it was a huge place with fun and challenging fights.

Challenging is indeed a problem in Gw2, the game is just too easy but then again now this suggests your problem is not with repeating old content, your problem is you dont enjoy content that isnt challenging dont you think?

Smith.1826:

True, but I do want them. But the only way to get them is through grind. That’s my issue. The only way to get them is not fun.

thats only true if you enjoy nothing about the game because you can complete the daily playing anything in the game really.

As for ascended weapons, the way they implemented is precisely to cater for people like you who wanted to feel they got an ascended weapon doing meaningful content. Temples / world bosses / dungeons are the “hardest” content the game has to offer. If your choice of content is challenging content arent you playing those things anyway?

Smith.1826:

And who cares what other MMOs do? I care about what this one does.

Because nothing is perfect and everything is relative.

For example saying cars are a bad form of transport because I want teleportation isnt exactly fair. Sure teleportation would be ideal but it doesnt exist comparing cars to the alternative shows that cars are a very good method of transport.

Likewise having unique content to play all the time is ideal, Gw2 isnt there yet and most likely never will be but compared to other MMOs it is the closest one I know of.

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Relentliss.2170:

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

You can plug in any MMO you choose, i dont mean to pick on WoW only mentioned WoW specifically cause you mentioned it first.

I brought it up when you said “most MMOs only allow you to do dungeons and raids”, which I disagreed with, insinuating that you may want to look into exactly what content exists with most other MMOs, and pointing at WoW as the easiest example. The burden of proof lies with you.

Like I said WoW is not one of the games I play So I have no idea first hand what the end game consists. According to WoW players though it still fits the bill:
http://www.wowwiki.com/End-game

Is there anything that the above link neglects to mention?

Smith.1826:

It certainly isn’t, but repeating that year old content today a second time doesn’t hold much interest, either – hence my introduction into this thread in reply to BlueZone’s post. You may want to read up on that again.

All those dungeon paths I’ve completed – numerous times – nearly a year ago, so I have no interest in replaying them. I earned map completion on one character and 70% on another, so I have no interest in going back to the world: I’ve already played all of it. So these new rewards are grindy as hell.

It might help to know that if given the choice to having to grind new content for a month or grind any of the old content for a month, I’d choose neither. If I HAD to choose, I’d rather a “new reward” come attached with new content, not a “new reward” attached to old content. In that case, I’d make some progress towards that reward.

I am sorry but if you find playing content a 2nd time grindy MMOs might not be the genre for you cause once you hit max level I know of no MMO that gives a stream of fresh content to play. The closest is once again Gw2 that pumps out new content every 2 weeks.

At the end of the day its a question of tastes. You prefer to repeat something new 25 times in a row, I prefer to have a thousand things and I can choose 25 items of them to repeat a 2nd time.

I, and many others, don’t consider what they pump out every 2 weeks content.

I, and many others do consider what they pump out every 2 weeks content. The new dungeon path, for example, is as good as any dungeon path in the game…to me and many like me.

Evidence…? I believe your “many others” number less than the “many others” that dislike Living story.

I don’t actually need evidence of many others. There are many others even in these forums who have said they enjoy the living story. It’s probably not 50/50 but it’s also probably not far from it.

Why should I offer evidence to something that is self-evident for anyone who has paid attention to the conversations about it on these forums.

Some people do and some people don’t. I didn’t say most, I said many. The statement stands. Feel free to offer contrary evidence if you have any.

Galen Grey.4709:

Challenging is indeed a problem in Gw2, the game is just too easy but then again now this suggests your problem is not with repeating old content, your problem is you dont enjoy content that isnt challenging dont you think?

Nope. I can deal without difficulty as long as the gameplay is varied and deep. I might even be okay without the depth if the gameplay was varied.

thats only true if you enjoy nothing about the game because you can complete the daily playing anything in the game really.

Or if you’ve already played and exhausted numerous aspects of said game in the year it’s been out.

All those temples, dungeons, and other champs/bosses,I played the crap out of them months ago, much of it by January. I had a lot of fun.

But, I don’t think any of that (nearly a year old) content scales or changes enough in a meaningful way to justify such time-heavy rewards.

Smith.1826:

Because nothing is perfect and everything is relative.

I dont think that’s an “accurate” analogy, because I don’t need to know anything about other MMOs to come to the conclusion of disagreeing with how this one’s being handled. Just because something in GW2 is better than what other MMOs do does not automatically make that thing “good”.

Likewise having unique content to play all the time is ideal, Gw2 isnt there yet and most likely never will be but compared to other MMOs it is the closest one I know of.

Well, one “unique” feature it had going for it was the scaling, something FFXIV pretty much ripped off and something I could imagine WoW easily ripping off should they need to.

Otherwise, the thing that will always be GW2’s biggest draw is that it doesn’t have a subscription fee, and this is for better or worse. The good is that you dont have to pay for any of it, the bad is that you get what you pay for.

Smith.1826:

Nope. I can deal without difficulty as long as the gameplay is varied and deep. I might even be okay without the depth if the gameplay was varied.

what do you mean by variety and depth exactly? I am asking cause generally thats generally something thats directly associated with difficulty. For example Gw2 has a very complex combat system with classes having skills that can be used in so many different ways to achieve a tactical advantage but because the game is too easy a lot of people perceive gw2 combat to be very 1 dimensional.

Smith.1826:

Or if you’ve already played and exhausted numerous aspects of said game in the year it’s been out.

All those temples, dungeons, and other champs/bosses,I played the crap out of them months ago, much of it by January. I had a lot of fun.

But, I don’t think any of that (nearly a year old) content scales or changes enough in a meaningful way to justify such time-heavy rewards.

Hmm I see, you already burned yourself out on that content before. Thats indeed a problem I hadnt considered. They are revamping a bit old content hopefully that might bring in new live for players who like you focused exclusively on that content for along time.

Smith.1826:

I dont think that’s an “accurate” analogy, because I don’t need to know anything about other MMOs to come to the conclusion of disagreeing with how this one’s being handled. I had falsely assumed my previous statement was sufficiently self-evident with that.

That would be a mistake however, if you simply dismiss an implementation because you find it not to you liking while ignoring what the alternative is you risk asking for something you hate more then what you had. Thats what happened with ascended weapons in my opinion. People were complaining about the daily system cause they felt it slowed them down and they tried to get arena-net to switch to a non time gated system believing it would be faster. That ended up backfiring on them because they refused to consider that time required was a design decision and that the daily system made the process painless. The alternative was worst even though they tried to keep it as open as possible.

Smith.1826:

Well, one “unique” feature it had going for it was the scaling, something FFXIV pretty much ripped off and something I could imagine WoW easily ripping off should they need to.

Otherwise, the thing that will always be GW2’s biggest draw is that it doesn’t have a subscription fee, and this is for better or worse. The good is that you dont have to pay for any of it, the bad is that you get what you pay for.

bad for some, great for others it depends what you’re looking for. In my case for example, I value variety of content, immersion and diversity. Gw2 is the best option I came across so far and I played a lot of different MMOs subscription or not.

Galen Grey.4709:

For example Gw2 has a very complex combat system with classes having skills that can be used in so many different ways to achieve a tactical advantage but because the game is too easy a lot of people perceive gw2 combat to be very 1 dimensional.

It’s still one of the more shallow games I’ve played, especially in regards to GW1: Half of my skillbar is locked, I don’t have as many options, and the class design ended up being “everyone does DPS, but differently”.

GW1, while easy, made up for this with the sheer amount of choice I had when it came to customization just one class, and the classes were more specialized. The difference between playing a warrior and playing a monk was pretty big, and there’s nothing that ‘big’ in GW2.

Hmm I see, you already burned yourself out on that content before. Thats indeed a problem I hadnt considered.

You’re just now getting that? Because it’s essentially the very first thing I said when I came into this thread. What gives?

That would be a mistake however, if you simply dismiss an implementation because you find it not to you liking while ignoring what the alternative is you risk asking for something you hate more then what you had.

I’m merely saying that I’m not going to cut my favorite restaurant any slack if my entree comes with a kittenroach. If it’s the only restaurant I’ve been to in town, I still have a right to be upset. Even though it may be the best chinese restaurant in town, it’ll mean that I might not want to eat chinese anymore.

Whatever flaws it may have, I’m still playing GW2 with friends. I think I can say that I’ve found it to be the most enjoyable MMO I have played. I may not have liked the last couple of update very much but I did enjoy the holiday content last year so I expect to have fun with King Thorn again.

TooBz.3065:

You can’t find all of the “no endgame” or “gear grind” threads. Even with the search function.

The “Search function” on these forums could not find its way out of a paper sack with a compass and a map. If you want to find a post on these forums use Google. Unfortunately it’s been that way since launch.

Smith.1826:

…especially in regards to GW1: Half of my skillbar is locked, I don’t have as many options…

As today’s update reminds me, the locked skill bar is a major sticking point. I’m a PvE player, and every time one of my weapon skills is nerfed (or worse, rendered useless) for the sake of PvP I die a little inside.

Galen Grey.4709:

As for ascended weapons, the way they implemented is precisely to cater for people like you who wanted to feel they got an ascended weapon doing meaningful content. Temples / world bosses / dungeons are the “hardest” content the game has to offer. If your choice of content is challenging content aren’t you playing those things anyway?

The only hard content the game offers is either in dungeons or possibly Teq, where the challenge is in getting the right players to do the right things to complete the event. Temples are tedious and annoying. The “challenge,” if you can call it that, comes from cheese (champions who hit like trucks in an environment where seeing the tells is problematic due to particle effects, or summoned mobs appearing every few seconds). Some of the temples can be overwhelmed with numbers, maybe all of them. The only way to generate a fun experience is to keep the numbers small — which players have little control over.

Ascended weapons and armours were the perfect opportunity for ArenaNet to redeem themselves. It could have been that you can’t craft these without specific components from certain dungeons or meta events, like needing a dragon’s tooth for an ascended weapon with zerker stats and having to do Shatterer, Jormag, or Teq to get a chance of it dropping. Other weapons could have needed a lost artifact you could only reclaim from Ascalon Catacombs or Sorrow’s Embrace or Arah (all set in historic sites; the tombs of kings, first dwarven foundry, and the ancient capital of Orr respectively), perhaps initiating the creation of new paths to bring new life to the dungeons (paths, perhaps, that are only open to people who have completed all the other paths of the dungeon). Even other weapons could have required learning the recipe from a tome that only comes from farmable chests in certain areas associated with Inquest or Flame Legion.

Just adding it in that people can suddenly get access to this new tier of weapons and armour doesn’t even make sense from a lore perspective, let alone from the perspective of disregarding the possibilities for new content to keep people going. These new paths could have been very profitable, even if you didn’t get what you really wanted, and affected by the same form of diminishing returns as every other major event is.

No, instead we continue to get filler under the trappings of “living story”. You know what? I don’t care about Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum’s misadventures through Tyria, because you’re offering it to us like a side-show. Rox was entirely superfluous in the hunt for Teq, Braham’s relationship to Eir kind of got brought up and then completely dropped, and to this day I have no idea why a Norn and a Charr were even in Divinity’s Reach for the Jubilee…

I feel entirely disconnected from the direction this game is going. I was disappointed with the story, which paled in comparison to the original guild wars games where your character achieved something monumental. i.e. Ascension. What do we do in GW2? We become SECOND in command for an alliance to bring down the dragons, let all of our ideas be stolen by the FIRST in command, live in the shadow of Destiny’s Edge, and ultimately stand by and watch as Zhaitan gets shot with a mega-laser. There’s been a whole lot of back-seat nonsense I’ve already had to tolerate, so why is the Living Story not about me? Why can’t I make choices about the way it plays out?

Frankly, I’m getting tired of the title hunting and ugly backpacks. If ANet wants to keep this game being “fun”, they had better pay attention to what people want nowadays.
1) Player choice
2) Enjoyable challenge (not place-face-on-grindstone-and-proceed)
3) Story (to which you/your character are more than incidental)

And I haven’t even addressed PvP. Seriously… what’s the point? PvP and PvE rewards are not interchangeable, it’s just an auxiliary feature of the game where the grind for rewards has been even further refined (glory -> chests -> desired armour or materials to make desired armour). I suppose as an E-Sport it’s no different than League of Legends where you pit a team of people against each other with the goal of winning by a set of arbitrary rules… but, seriously, why not different game modes? Capture the flag? King of the hill? Oh, that’s right, because ANet seems to have this silly notion that some classes should have further emphasis on “support” roles or “skirmish” roles, and all the mishaps at balancing stem from their failure to recognize that all classes should be equally capable of every role with the proper strategy and build. Yes, a mesmer should be able to bunker to hold a point with various buffs and tactics, subject to a weakness that a counter-build can exploit, such as a stun-lock warrior, who in turn will be weak to a condition necromancer, who in turn will be weak to a cleansing dps guardian… all of whom have the ability to hold the objective and not have to hang around team mates to “support” unless they actually want to.

And, while we’re on the subject of fun, it is NOT fun to do the majority of the work on a team in PvP and then be randomly selected to be changed teams during auto-balancing. Any time this has happened to me (not as frequent as may be implied, but still “too often”, in my opinion) I have just simply left the game out of spite.

There are so many glaring issues with how this game plays that ANet seems content to ignore, and its costing you player interest. I started playing this game with three other people, and I am the only one who still plays regularly. Will I maintain this interest if nothing substantial is forthcoming from ANet? Probably not.

It’s up to you.

Provost.6210:

Ascended weapons and armours were the perfect opportunity for ArenaNet to redeem themselves. It could have been that you can’t craft these without specific components from certain dungeons or meta events, like needing a dragon’s tooth for an ascended weapon with zerker stats and having to do Shatterer, Jormag, or Teq to get a chance of it dropping. Other weapons could have needed a lost artifact you could only reclaim from Ascalon Catacombs or Sorrow’s Embrace or Arah (all set in historic sites; the tombs of kings, first dwarven foundry, and the ancient capital of Orr respectively), perhaps initiating the creation of new paths to bring new life to the dungeons (paths, perhaps, that are only open to people who have completed all the other paths of the dungeon). Even other weapons could have required learning the recipe from a tome that only comes from farmable chests in certain areas associated with Inquest or Flame Legion.

While I would have personally liked this better, I’m not sure that WvW players who hate PvE in the first place would necessarily like it better. I’m not sure people who hate doing dungeons and would be forced to do specific dungeons would like it better.

I, on the other hand, would like it better. I don’t know that I’d be in the majority though.

Smith.1826:

It’s still one of the more shallow games I’ve played, especially in regards to GW1: Half of my skillbar is locked, I don’t have as many options, and the class design ended up being “everyone does DPS, but differently”.

GW1, while easy, made up for this with the sheer amount of choice I had when it came to customization just one class, and the classes were more specialized. The difference between playing a warrior and playing a monk was pretty big, and there’s nothing that ‘big’ in GW2.

Thing is it really isnt. There are still a ton of choices its just they’re not as obvious as they were in gw1.

Sure the weapon skills are fixed but each weapon skill does a number of things and those actions are complemented with your choice of utility skills and all of that in turn is effected by your trait choice.

for example if I want my necro to be mainly support instead of mainly a condition giver I have to change around traits and utility skills and even change the way I approach combat because while I will still have the same weapon skills the way you use those skills changes based on your role to a degree.

Smith.1826:

You’re just now getting that? Because it’s essentially the very first thing I said when I came into this thread. What gives?

What you said in your first reply to this thread is
“Well, how long would all of that content last until you have to start repeating it? When it comes down to having to repeat it, in what way does it vary, if at all?
I feel like that was more in-line with what BlueZone was highlighting, and it doesn’t just apply to dailies. Having to repeat content can be synonymous with having to “grind” it.”

how does any of that mean you’re just repeating a small subset of the content cause thats all you enjoy and thus burned yourself out on it?

Smith.1826:

I’m merely saying that I’m not going to cut my favorite restaurant any slack if my entree comes with a kittenroach. If it’s the only restaurant I’ve been to in town, I still have a right to be upset. Even though it may be the best chinese restaurant in town, it’ll mean that I might not want to eat chinese anymore.

How is that a good analogy? what would be the roach in Gw2? (something that is down right harmful ?) a better analogy would be cutting your restuarant some slack because now its serving some dishes you dont like.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

As for ascended weapons, the way they implemented is precisely to cater for people like you who wanted to feel they got an ascended weapon doing meaningful content. Temples / world bosses / dungeons are the “hardest” content the game has to offer. If your choice of content is challenging content aren’t you playing those things anyway?

The only hard content the game offers is either in dungeons or possibly Teq, where the challenge is in getting the right players to do the right things to complete the event. Temples are tedious and annoying. The “challenge,” if you can call it that, comes from cheese (champions who hit like trucks in an environment where seeing the tells is problematic due to particle effects, or summoned mobs appearing every few seconds). Some of the temples can be overwhelmed with numbers, maybe all of them. The only way to generate a fun experience is to keep the numbers small — which players have little control over.

Like you said the problem isnt that temples arent challenging its that they’re overwhelmed, if you have more players then the event scales to its obviously going to be really easy, or really hard when you’re one shot with was never meant to be a one shot attack. But player do have some control over that, its not like there is just one temple, if they spread out a bit it would be all more enjoyable but alas they insist on zerging everything.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is it really isnt.

I vehemently disagree. I’ve had nowhere near the same amount of fun in build making as I have in GW1, and certainly not the same amount of interesting and meaningful options. There’s also no longer the emphasis on class differentiation: There’s no longer a “jump” in playstyle between classes that was as interesting as warriors to monks.

As such, GW2 is one of the most straightforward and basic games I’ve played.

how does any of that mean you’re just repeating a small subset of the content cause thats all you enjoy and thus burned yourself out on it?

Because you’re ignoring the rest of what I’ve been saying: That the rest of the gameworld I feel “burnt out” with after the first playthrough because I don’t think it has any and/or completely inconsequential replayability.

How is that a good analogy? what would be the roach in Gw2? (something that is down right harmful ?)

Because I certainly think gear grinds and temporary content – and other things – are absolutely harmful. Of course, I also know that some people enjoy kittenroaches…

Smith.1826:

I vehemently disagree. I’ve had nowhere near the same amount of fun in build making as I have in GW1, and certainly not the same amount of interesting and meaningful options. There’s also no longer the emphasis on class differentiation: There’s no longer a “jump” in playstyle between classes that was as interesting as warriors to monks.

As such, GW2 is one of the most straightforward and basic games I’ve played.

Is that a bad thing? because to me thats what made Gw1 great as well the fact a class didnt mean a cage. Why did gw1 have dual classing which you could change at will anytime if it was meant to have “emphasis on class differentiation”

Also its exactly the opposite, when you have open classes that include almost all elements of the other classes you dont get straightforward you get complex. In MMOs that have strict class roles game play is way more straightforward. for example in a game where a healer can essentially only heal whats the game play like? select the tank, do your healing rotation. keep in a eye out on the rest of the group if tank can take it heal those who are hurt. If you’re soloing do DPS rotation when you’re hurt do healing rotation drink potion when mana is low. essentially thats all you’ll be doing

contrast that with Gw2 The variety is mind blowing. I can support my allies in various ways… boost their damage / clear them of conditions / have them regenerate / Reduce the damage they take, I can DPS my enemies, direct damage / applying conditions, I can CC, Interrupt / Fear / Blind, I can tank use Minions as meatshields / Regen / Death shroud, I can debuff enemies strip away their boons, I can expose stealthed enemies by using marks as a landmine kinda thing, I can be disruptive to enemies.. slow them down/make them take damage if they move, immobilize them

and I can mix and match all of these. All of these above require their own tactical considerations and require different skills to be used some times multiple on them but I can do all of that using just 1 main build. I fail to see how thats more straightforward then other more strict mmos role wise. In some of those other mmos you even get macros which means literally all you have to do most of the time is keep pressing the same key with a few different keys based on different situations.

Gw2 is easy and as such you dont need to bother with the complexity above to be effective but if you want combat complexity its most definitely there.

Smith.1826:

Because I certainly think gear grinds and temporary content – and other things – are absolutely harmful. Of course, I also know that some people enjoy kittenroaches…

how are they harmful? if you can even call what we have a gear grind when most of the stuff you can get by playing an hour whatever you choose (thus finishing the daily) and for the weapons you get a big variety of content you can play to get the stuff you need?

As for frequent temporary content with some permanent stuff sprinkled in every 2 weeks how exactly is that harmful?

Galen Grey.4709:

Is that a bad thing? because to me thats what made Gw1 great as well the fact a class didnt mean a cage. Why did gw1 have dual classing which you could change at will anytime if it was meant to have “emphasis on class differentiation”

Because among things like energy management and armor ratings, the key thing that balanced it all out was the primary attribute.

Also its exactly the opposite, when you have open classes that include almost all elements of the other classes you dont get straightforward you get complex….

…contrast that with Gw2 The variety is mind blowing.

What was the point of all that, though? Most of that I can do as a warrior from WoW, nearly all of it can be done across all the classes. This is splitting hairs.

And that’s the thing: I don’t get a whole lot out of comparing GW2 to other MMOs. What I do is compare it to GW1, and what I get out of that is a less dynamic, simplier, and ultimately less satisfying experience. All roads in PvE lead to DPS glass-cannon builds.

how are they harmful? if you can even call what we have a gear grind when most of the stuff you can get by playing an hour whatever you choose (thus finishing the daily) and for the weapons you get a big variety of content you can play to get the stuff you need?

As for frequent temporary content with some permanent stuff sprinkled in every 2 weeks how exactly is that harmful?

In regards to how the “gear grind” is harmful, it’s how that relates to what I’ve been saying in this thread: When reaching certain rewards requires repeating content you have no interest in repeating – or content that doesn’t do anything interesting in repeating it. That relates heavily to the point I’ve been trying to make.

In regards to how “temporary content” is harmful, it’s how it can cause the urge to play as is common in many other MMOs. If you’re nearly 100% active in another “gear centric” MMO, you wont be “behind” when they release new content. If you’re 100% active in GW2, you won’t miss any content. If I choose to take a break in either scenario, I’m punished for it.

Smith.1826:

Because among things like energy management and armor ratings, the key thing that balanced it all out was the primary attribute.

how did any of that mean your warrior couldnt heal like a monk or you monk couldnt summon spirits like a ritualist etc..?

Smith.1826:

What was the point of all that, though? Most of that I can do as a warrior from WoW, nearly all of it can be done across all the classes. This is splitting hairs.

And that’s the thing: I don’t get a whole lot out of comparing GW2 to other MMOs. What I do is compare it to GW1, and what I get out of that is a less dynamic, simplier, and ultimately less satisfying experience. All roads in PvE lead to DPS glass-cannon builds.

The point is other MMOs put artificial restrictions on classes for deferensation while in Gw2 the difference is more on how you do certain action rather then the actions themselves. That makes a lot of sense in my opinion. Why is a mage restricted to just dps? what magic cannot control or heal? why is a preset limited to healing? divine retribution cannot damage / control? its an artificial limitation not much unlike gender locking. and I’d say its actually way more limiting than having open classes. I mean seriously how can anyone claim you have no choice in Gw2 because every class can do more or less everything? you have no choice in trinity mmos if I want to heal I have to go priest no other class will do… thats what no choice really means!

Smith.1826:

In regards to how the “gear grind” is harmful, it’s how that relates to what I’ve been saying in this thread: When reaching certain rewards requires repeating content you have no interest in repeating – or content that doesn’t do anything interesting in repeating it. That relates heavily to the point I’ve been trying to make.

Well thats not exactly what I asked but even so you’re playing an MMO, ascended gear or not you’ll be repeating content anyway! What ever choice of content is you can play that to get a weapon drop if you find it too tedious to play a variety of content in order to go the crafting route. But ascended gear or not repetition is inevitable.

Smith.1826:

In regards to how “temporary content” is harmful, it’s how it can cause the urge to play as is common in many other MMOs. If you’re nearly 100% active in another “gear centric” MMO, you wont be “behind” when they release new content. If you’re 100% active in GW2, you won’t miss any content. If I choose to take a break in either scenario, I’m punished for it.

No you’re not, you’re not punished at all. If you miss say Flame and Frost how would that have been a punishment? Does missing f&f mean you cannot do the new content? or that you dont understand whats going on with the story? or that you’ll never catch up with other players? or that you’ll have nothing new to do ?

Do you feel punished by every game you dont play because you’re missing the content they’re offering as well?

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Because among things like energy management and armor ratings, the key thing that balanced it all out was the primary attribute.

how did any of that mean your warrior couldnt heal like a monk

Divine Favour. Lower energy pool and energy regen.

Galen Grey.4709:

or you monk couldnt summon spirits like a ritualist etc..?

Spawning Power

Astralporing.1957:

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Because among things like energy management and armor ratings, the key thing that balanced it all out was the primary attribute.

how did any of that mean your warrior couldnt heal like a monk

Divine Favour. Lower energy pool and energy regen.

Galen Grey.4709:

or you monk couldnt summon spirits like a ritualist etc..?

Spawning Power

None of that means a warrior cannot heal allies or a monk couldnt summon spirits. it only means s/he wouldnt be as effective but then again the same thing is true in gw2, a necro cannot dps as well as a warrior and a thief cannot support as well as an elementalist thought hey all can be the same roles!

Medieval.1679:

MrIllusion.5304:

Gear threadmill… that’s a good one.

Some people mistake a walk over a bump for a threadmill.

Real threadmills have you getting gear to do content to get the next tier of gear, to do content that gives yet another tier of gear.

That’s not how it is in GW2 right now.

You have a point, in GW2 it’s just crap loot drops from here to eternity.

Do the hardest content – get crap loot.
Do the easiest content – get crap loot.
Do a grind – get crap loot.
Do LS storylines – get crap loot.
Do dungeons – get crap loot.

Do all of the above hundreds of times over and over again and get nothing but crap loot.

A gear grind GW2 is definitely not because that would mean that sometimes something decent will drop for you.

And after a couple of thousand hours playing, I can assure you that this is not the case.

Don’t get me wrong, I play the game because it is fun – for the moment – but it’s starting to wear thin. Personally I am about out of content that is worth doing (or that I feel like doing) and the fun is starting to drain away from it – and yes, endless crap loot is putting me off logging in.

The old “I’d like to be rewarded for the effort” just doesn’t apply to this game anymore and over and above everything, this is what is making me look forward to my next MMO.

Well said. You’d think that after playing thousands of hours and trying different kinds of content while also becoming pretty decent with it you would have accumulated enough for one legendary and ascended set for AT LEAST ONE of your 8 characters but that is not the case with this game.

You’re forced to do daily grind and perhaps spend some real money to get gems → gold to purchase precursor and materials for ascended gear. It’s so ridiculous it makes my head explode if I think about it too much. And how Anet originally described this game was no grind and max stat gear for about everyone. Well that’s not how it works it seems. No wonder people are disappointed.

jalmari.3906:

And how Anet originally described this game was no grind and max stat gear for about everyone. Well that’s not how it works it seems. No wonder people are disappointed.

I never expected “no grind.” I expected massive grind for cosmetic improvements. I did expect no grind for better stats. Things changed, imo for the worst.

Absolutely, they lied about that shamelessly. Best Statement regarding this

“We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.” -Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

What you see these days is people grinding World Bosses, Chests and Temples for the Ascendend materials. As a wvw player it´s even worse. The materials just drop of the Lords, Supervizors and the only thing that counts is damage to get loot. If you help in any other way to capture the object is irrelevant. Also killing other players is irrelevant because WvW is a kitten siege game. So if you want that materials in a reasonable timeframe you are forced to do endless temple events etc. This is grind in it´s best form and it is definetely not fun.

Galen Grey.4709:

how did any of that mean your warrior couldnt heal like a monk or you monk couldnt summon spirits like a ritualist etc..?

It didn’t, it was just far from optimal. You could be a monk with all warrior skills, but a warrior would do it way better. Likewise, you’d support your teammates way more than a warrior with monk skills. The choice was there, but in many cases it was not optimal. In a team game, this is important.

I mean seriously how can anyone claim you have no choice in Gw2 because every class can do more or less everything? you have no choice in trinity mmos if I want to heal I have to go priest no other class will do… thats what no choice really means!

Lack of options is the result of PvE demanding little sans DPS. Having everyone become self-dependent erases a lot of the codepency and interesting team play. Lack of balance (conditions) and balancing mechanics (resource management) is icing on the cake for what I consider a less interesting, less team-based game.

Well thats not exactly what I asked but even so you’re playing an MMO, ascended gear or not you’ll be repeating content anyway! What ever choice of content is you can play that to get a weapon drop if you find it too tedious to play a variety of content in order to go the crafting route. But ascended gear or not repetition is inevitable.

So…you admit that it’s a gear grind? That fact that you consider that ‘inevitable’ speaks volumes for where MMOs have ended up.

No you’re not, you’re not punished at all.

I would think that missing out on gameplay is punishment enough in and of itself. There’s been very little of it lately that you can experience at your own pace. I can play an hour of Morrowind (or any other game, pretty much), put it on the shelf for a year, and come back to where I started.

I think what they’re doing creates less of a ‘living world’, and more a method to help ensure you get people playing your game as possible.

Smith.1826:

It didn’t, it was just far from optimal. You could be a monk with all warrior skills, but a warrior would do it way better. Likewise, you’d support your teammates way more than a warrior with monk skills. The choice was there, but in many cases it was not optimal. In a team game, this is important.

Thing is optimal means different things. Sure a monk is a better monk then a warrior with a monk secondary no doubt but whats optimal being in a party with no monk thus no healing or having someone heal even if sub optimally? Likewise in Gw2 if you want DPS warrior is the optimal class for that but that’s sacrificing a lot of flexiblity other classes have. DPS on a necro is way smaller then that of a warrior but to me at least that an necro is a better choice. Considering how generally my encounters in WvW go against warrior I dont think its a bad choice at all.

Smith.1826:

Lack of options is the result of PvE demanding little sans DPS. Having everyone become self-dependent erases a lot of the codepency and interesting team play. Lack of balance (conditions) and balancing mechanics (resource management) is icing on the cake for what I consider a less interesting, less team-based game.

Thats not really the case. PvE is easy and as such any combination including full DPS is viable but I am not so sure full DPS is actually the best option. Support has its place too, in fact support can boost DPS a lot. in a party of 5 if you get a support mesmer and elementalist with 3 warriors the elementalist and mesmer can stack 25 stacks of might. Thats like 900 extra power (thats like the equivalent of going up 9 whole tiers of gear!) on all 3 warriors. That alone makes the damage of 3 warriors equal to 4 warrior with no might buff. then you got the mesmer who can time warp. that means the damage equivalent of 4 warriors has now increased to become equal to that of 6 warriors (for the 10s of the timewarp of course). Mesmer and Ele can also stack vulnerability on target potentially increasing damage by 25%. the damage of those 3 warriors has now been boosted to equal that of 7 warriors. So is it really better to have 5 maximum dps party members or is it actually beneficial to put in a little support and crowd control? we havent even touched about how an ele and a mesmer can help keep those 3 warriors alive and do some damage themselves as well!

Smith.1826:

So…you admit that it’s a gear grind? That fact that you consider that ‘inevitable’ speaks volumes for where MMOs have ended up.

No I dont, just cause you have to repeat content it doesnt automatically mean its a grind. It is inevitable to repeat content in any mmo no one is denying that not even me but when you dont have to repeat the same thing again for months that to me is not grind. grind would be when you have to repeat the same thing every day which is what most other mmos force you to do and exactly what gw2 was specifically designed to avoid.

Smith.1826:

I would think that missing out on gameplay is punishment enough in and of itself. There’s been very little of it lately that you can experience at your own pace. I can play an hour of Morrowind (or any other game, pretty much), put it on the shelf for a year, and come back to where I started.

I think what they’re doing creates less of a ‘living world’, and more a method to help ensure you get people playing your game as possible.

This I dont understand, you’re not playing cause you dont feel like playing.. its not the game forcing you to stop, it is you choosing to stop so how exactly are you being punished when its you deciding to miss out so to speak? This might be something new in an MMO but its not something new in life. If I dont go watch movie x at the cinema in y time period I am going to miss my opportunity to see that movie at the cinema, is the cinema punishing me if I choose not to go? Same thing with concerts, plays, circus acts, and most life experiences. Keep in mind when you return its not like you’ll not have something new to play, what you missed is what you decided to miss cause you didnt feel like it.

Simply speaking you’re saying you didnt get to play what you felt like you didnt want to play.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is optimal means different things. Sure a monk is a better monk then a warrior with a monk secondary no doubt but whats optimal being in a party with no monk thus no healing or having someone heal even if sub optimally?

I’d rather have someone who can heal and protect effectively. I admit, having some protection is likely better than no protection, but finding a monk wasn’t that hard (hello henchmen, and later heroes).

…So is it really better to have 5 maximum dps party members or is it actually beneficial to put in a little support and crowd control? we havent even touched about how an ele and a mesmer can help keep those 3 warriors alive and do some damage themselves as well!

I don’t know, it seems like you could make up for all that with banners, For Great Justice, and if the vulnerability from greatswords isn’t enough, “On My Mark”. Going that far out of the way just to boost the damage for three warriors seems unnecessary. Healing isn’t necessary due to dodge and self-heal mechanics and PvE’s infatuation with big, damaging attacks. CC’s also iffy due to defiant in it’s current state.

No I dont, just cause you have to repeat content it doesnt automatically mean its a grind.

Can I get an ascended weapon without laboring through content that’s nearly a year old and that I’ve already played? If not, then getting one is not fun. And that’s the question: “Is it fun?” If it isn’t, they need to address it.

This I dont understand, you’re not playing cause you dont feel like playing.. its not the game forcing you to stop, it is you choosing to stop so how exactly are you being punished when its you deciding to miss out so to speak?

Chapters don’t disappear from my book when I’m not reading it. Most games don’t delete levels from their game when I’m not playing it. Netflix is getting huge because it gives you the power to watch what you want, whenever you want.

Games are well within their power to do the same thing: Let you experience something fully and completely at your own pace. This is an idea that needs to be embraced entirely.

And what if the reason isn’t because you don’t want to play, but can’t? It can heavily dictate how one plays and experiences the game.

Zacchary.6183:

darkace.8925:

stuff

This is how they measure success….

I just saw it.
I lolled xD

Smith.1826:

I’d rather have someone who can heal and protect effectively. I admit, having some protection is likely better than no protection, but finding a monk wasn’t that hard (hello henchmen, and later heroes).

if you were doing solo content that used henchmen and heroes then you could use any build you want cause there wasnt anything that hard to forced you to min max like that. We’re talking group content when you’re joining other players where none of them are primary monks.

Smith.1826:

I don’t know, it seems like you could make up for all that with banners, For Great Justice, and if the vulnerability from greatswords isn’t enough, “On My Mark”. Going that far out of the way just to boost the damage for three warriors seems unnecessary. Healing isn’t necessary due to dodge and self-heal mechanics and PvE’s infatuation with big, damaging attacks. CC’s also iffy due to defiant in it’s current state.

Lets calculate it shall we… 5 warriors all using on my mark and for great justice banners. again never mind these are two slots that could be used for better utility skills. anyhow so for great justice will stack up 15 might which means 525 extra might which will boost the over all damage of the 5 warriors to 6. (20% on each warrior x5)
on my mark will increase the damage received by another 25% so you’ve boosted your party damage to 6.25 warriors. The other combination where we had an ele and a mesmer to boon boosted the warriors alone to the point when those 3 warriors did the same damage as 7 warriors and still left the ele and the mesmer to do a little damage themselves. 5 warriors alone can boost their damage (based on the skills you chose) to that of 6.25 warriors. I think you’re underestimating the role support has in the game. Sure neither the mesmer nor the ele is going to match the raw damage output of a warrior but that doesnt mean they’re useless!

Smith.1826:

Can I get an ascended weapon without laboring through content that’s nearly a year old and that I’ve already played? If not, then getting one is not fun. And that’s the question: “Is it fun?” If it isn’t, they need to address it.

Actually yes, all the content that drops ascended materials has a chance of dropping weapons to. So you can get an ascended weapon doing taqualt, you can get an ascended weapon doing the clock tower jumping puzzle. You can get one from the new TA path etc..

Its not that simple, is it fun isnt the same for everyone one. The way they implemented crafting is fun for me but it isnt for you. The way you want it implemented which is fun for you will not be fun for me (i’d hate it if i had to repeat the same new dungeon a bunch of times)

Smith.1826:

Chapters don’t disappear from my book when I’m not reading it. Most games don’t delete levels from their game when I’m not playing it. Netflix is getting huge because it gives you the power to watch what you want, whenever you want.

Games are well within their power to do the same thing: Let you experience something fully and completely at your own pace. This is an idea that needs to be embraced entirely.

And what if the reason isn’t because you don’t want to play, but can’t? It can heavily dictate how one plays and experiences the game.

No chapters dont disappear from your book but neither do they from Gw2, you can still read and see what happened in the past releases. You can also join the story at your own pace. Thing is other MMOs dont have an evolving time line in their world. Their world is entirely static (for the most part) all they do is add new stuff to a world thats fixed in time. Gw2 isnt like that, in tyria there is the passage of time. That doesnt mean you cannot play at your own pace it means that the world evolves independent from each of its players. You can watch tv at your own pace but that doesnt mean you can watch everything. You can go to a cinema at your own pace but again that doesnt mean you’re never going to miss a movie. Same here, you can play the game when ever you feel like because not playing will not mean you fall behind or have trouble picking up the game again but that doenst mean you get to experience everything.

Passage of time in an mmo in my opinion is a great thing. It makes for much greater immersion. We cannot have great things like the forest in Kessex hills being chopped down and the wood taken by the krait. We cannot have things like villages being raized and then slowely rebuilt. we cannot have things like refuges moving from place to play causing change in their wake without passage of time. And I’d rather in 10 years time have a world that change a lot since day 1 then be exactly the same to the last stone just more stuff added on top of it.

The addition of new things to Tyria via the LS is not an indication of the passage of time. It is functionally not significantly different than another game adding new content, with the temporary aspect as an exception.

Its pretty easy to test the lack of passage of time in terms of world evolution/story development in game, go to AC, CM, etc.

Personally I do not consider the lack of passage of time in game to be a problem.

Galen Grey.4709:

if you were doing solo content that used henchmen and heroes then you could use any build you want cause there wasnt anything that hard to forced you to min max like that. We’re talking group content when you’re joining other players where none of them are primary monks.

Then I’d highlight how silly it is to not have any monks and I’d bring my own monk. Because, unless you’re an ele, the protection and healing you’re going to try to bring without a monk is crap, and there is some slightly demanding content thrown into GW1’s PvE.

Smith.1826:

…I think you’re underestimating the role support has in the game.

I admit I’m no longer as keen with the way PvE works as I used to be (although I know as much to save a spot for a guardian, as they provide some of the “best support”). But mind what I said earlier:

What I said earlier was “all roads lead to DPS”, and you’ve spent a couple posts reinforcing that. CC isn’t encouraged, ‘tanking’ isn’t encouraged, protecting isn’t encouraged, healing isn’t encouraged. All out damage. This applies to the diversity of gear, as well: While there are opportunities where an anchor guardian would benefit the group, most of the time the group just needs to worry about maximizing damage.

As such, that’s one of the reasons I find replaying GW2 as another class really shallow. No matter what class I am, my goal is to kill things, and with the lack of energy and other interesting mechanics (there’s nothing like hexes in GW2) and roles, killing things can just get boring.

The only plus side to all this is I don’t have to look for certain classes on my team. The downside is I don’t have to care what classes are on my team, because there’s not as much emphasis on teamwork this time around. This person explains it amazingly well, better than I ever could.

Actually yes, all the content that drops ascended materials has a chance of dropping weapons to. So you can get an ascended weapon doing taqualt, you can get an ascended weapon doing the clock tower jumping puzzle. You can get one from the new TA path etc..

Its not that simple, is it fun isnt the same for everyone one. The way they implemented crafting is fun for me but it isnt for you. The way you want it implemented which is fun for you will not be fun for me (i’d hate it if i had to repeat the same new dungeon a bunch of times)

I’ve said, repeatedly, that this is not what I want. You’ve asked, repeatedly, which one I’d pick if I HAD to choose: Grinding new content or grinding old content. Neither of those are things I want. What do you think it is that I want? Because I’ve been saying it a lot. Are you lost in translation?

Also, RNG is not an alternative to grind.

No chapters dont disappear from your book but neither do they from Gw2, you can still read and see what happened in the past releases.

In no way, shape, or form is this comparable to experiencing it first hand. Not in the least, and never in a million years. You cannot hope to achieve the same amount of emotional investment if you’re just “reading about it” what happened – or rather, what you missed out on.

You can watch tv at your own pace but that doesnt mean you can watch everything. You can go to a cinema at your own pace but again that doesnt mean you’re never going to miss a movie…

Which is why I brought up Netflix.

And I’d rather in 10 years time have a world that change a lot since day 1 then be exactly the same to the last stone just more stuff added on top of it.

That’s a horrible way to belittle permanent content. You’ve essentially just minimized every expansion – to every single game ever – as merely “stuff added on top of it”. And I’d argue that that’s what we’re currently left with: “GW2 is exactly the same just with some stuff that changes a bit at the top”. But this is beside the point, and best left for another thread…

Ashen.2907:

The addition of new things to Tyria via the LS is not an indication of the passage of time. It is functionally not significantly different than another game adding new content, with the temporary aspect as an exception.

Its pretty easy to test the lack of passage of time in terms of world evolution/story development in game, go to AC, CM, etc.

Personally I do not consider the lack of passage of time in game to be a problem.

Old content that wasnt delivered through LS is yes frozen in time but I am talking about the LS, that content was definitely not frozen in time.

We had the molten alliance invasion which created refuges as they ravaged towns (here we could see cragstead in flames) the invasion themselves stopped once we destroyed their molten facilities (passage of time, we had an invasion and we actually stopped it) the refugees went to southsun cove and helped with building up the infrastructure (new structures, refugees in southsun, refugees no longer in LA, Black citadel and haelbrak… passage of time) we helped release the refugees from their contract and so they left the consortium oppression but still needed somewhere to go. They opted to move to cragstead and help rebuild the place (now cragstead is no longer a pile of burning rubble its being rebuilt and you can find those refugees there again more passage of time)

A lack of passage of time isnt a problem no but it makes for a less exiting less immerssive game world.

Smith.1826:

Then I’d highlight how silly it is to not have any monks snip..

The whole point is no one had a primary monk.. I mean what is it that you’re saying here exactly, that the secondary profession was pointless in gw1? that choices where pointless they should just have provided the skills of the optimal meta build and nothing else cause it doesnt make sense to playing anything other then most optimal build?

I admit I’m no longer as keen with the way PvE works …
What I said earlier was “all roads lead to DPS”, snip…

I focused on DPS only because you mentioned DPS. I pointed out even though warriors are the undisputed king of DPS a party of 5 warriors isnt as effective at DPS as a party of 3 warriors and 2 classes focused primarily at support. if you focus on DPS you’re going to die fast, how does that not encourage protection? If you dont heal you’re going to die fast. Isnt that encouragement enough to heal? DPS is great, every combat encounter is obviously designed to kill stuff and you’re going to do that through DPS but then again you also need to DPS long enough and that means you have to survive which means either supporting your allies currently engaged with the enemy since as long as they’re alive you’re safe. How do you do that? depending on your class by keeping regen on them (healing), clearing their conditions (support), mitigating their damage (CC+Support)

As such, that’s one of the reasons I find replaying GW2 as another class really shallow. No matter what class I am, my goal is to kill things,snip…

Which game have you ever played that the goal of combat was not killing the mob. how you go about it is as varied as any other game. The difference is in other games you choose a role. if you chose dps and you’re bored of killing things well too bad thats all you can do. Here you have the option of choosing the role you want to fit on the fly. You’re bored of killing things, fine support the people doing the killing you can have them be better at tanking their encounter or boost them to kill faster. its entirely up to you.

The only plus side to all this is I don’t have to look for certain classes on my team. snip…

That applies to Gw2 as well. If we’re 2 necros on the team, I cast blind and the other player casts blind at the same time then one of those blinds is wasted.
If I dont co-ordinate with my team before casting epidemic I might use it before my team cast all their condition thus reducing its effectiveness by a lot. If I cast well of corruption right after the guardian uses his mighty blow skill by the time that skill comes out of cooldown the well of corruption would have dissipate and we wasted the option of giving blindness to all nearby mobs. Gw2 with its lack of trinity didnt remove group play, if player choose not to co-ordinate its not because the game doesnt allow it but because that is what they choose.

Smith.1826:

I’ve said, repeatedly, that this is not what I want. Yo…

I am not sure what you want cause you keep contradicting yourself. you don’t want to repeat content but you want content to remain permanently so you can play it when you want. But even so no reward can be tied to that content repetition?

Smith.1826:

In no way, shape, or form is this comparable to experiencing it first hand. Not in the least, and never in a million years. snip..

Then why did you skip it in the first place if it has such a big emotional investment for you?

Smith.1826:

Which is why I brought up Netflix.

which also occasionally removes stuff

Smith.1826:

That’s a horrible way to belittle permanent content. …

Its not belittling anything but I do feel LS is a superior way of story telling. In your typical MMO the stuff I helped with 10 years ago, killing dangerous wild life, retrieve materials to fix infrastructure, kill the bandits / the orcs about to invade etc.. are all still there today 10 years later. While the molten alliance invasion I fought 6 months ago? ohh we actually stopped that, they no longer attack villages anywhere thanks to players.

I mean dont take my word for it, see how many people complain because they feel dynamic events dont change anything since they repeat every 30 minutes now consider most MMOs dont even do anything close to that every stays exactly the same. Why is it a big deal that I am unable to fight the invasions we actually stopped when today I can fight the mad king and his evil son and tomorrow I will be trying to stop god knows what? and Talking about you why is it important so much for you to have content permanently in if you find playing it twice bad, shouldnt you be asking for more temporary content to enjoy rather then more permanent content you want to ignore?

Galen Grey.4709:

The whole point is no one had a primary monk.. I mean what is it that you’re saying here exactly, that the secondary profession was pointless in gw1? that choices where pointless they should just have provided the skills of the optimal meta build and nothing else cause it doesnt make sense to playing anything other then most optimal build?

To answer your original question about it – "Why did gw1 have dual classing which you could change at will anytime if it was meant to have “emphasis on class differentiation”" – and it was to simply increase variety and utility in gameplay. The balance that came from energy pools/regeneration and primary attributes allowed for a means to allow it all to be balanced.

How do you do that? depending on your class by keeping regen on them (healing), clearing their conditions (support), mitigating their damage (CC+Support)

By dodging and maintaining adequete use of your self heal. Guardian/warrior cleanse shouts optional, although reflects may be mandatory. There’s no point to “healing” if the other party members can take care of themselves. It’s probably why they implemented such strong self heals and the dodging. It just also kind of guts teamplay, in addition to many other things, which has always been the bigger draw for me in multiplayer games.

And sure, the “goal of combat” in general has been to defeat the enemy. It’s the multiple and significant amount of ways that you can go about accomplishing that. There isn’t anything like that plays anything like the Monk did in GW1, and the only game that comes anywhere near to it is in mobas of all things.

Maybe it’s less an issue with the game being “clkitten”, moreso with it being shallow and thus boring. I’ve had far more interesting dynamics with teamplay in many different games, even many different RPGs. As such, I haven’t found replayability for it in GW2.

Smith.1826:

I am not sure what you want cause you keep contradicting yourself. you don’t want to repeat content but you want content to remain permanently so you can play it when you want. But even so no reward can be tied to that content repetition?

This paragraph doesn’t make a lot of sense, especially that last bit, but I’ll try to make-do:

I came into this thread when BlueZone highlighted that for some people, getting ascended gear would require them to repeat content they have no interest in repeating. Even though they have choice in what they repeat/grind, they’re still having to repeat/grind content. This is why to them the items are “grind” to acquire. Whether or not the reward is worth it isn’t relevant, and if it wasn’t “necessary” then it wouldn’t be here.

Smith.1826:

Then why did you skip it in the first place if it has such a big emotional investment for you?

Maybe I couldn’t because my computer died. Maybe I didn’t own the game yet. Maybe I felt “burnt out” from trying to keep up with it all, while keeping up with real life. No matter what the reason is, please don’t put words in my mouth.

which also occasionally removes stuff

Which no one likes. Splitting hairs, and ignoring the point.

When it comes to things that can increase the immersive value and believability in the world, then yes I agree with alot of things they’ve done.

At the same time, they can develop and create content that not only fuels a “living story” but persists as well, for those who choose it.

Obviously, to you, having content be “off limits” after a few weeks for the sake of story and continuity is important. I’m merely hoping you would be willing to compromise some of that if it would allow players a chance to experience content that you’ve experienced but they couldn’t.

And I feel that the developers could satisfy both those needs: a good, immersive story with a huge helping of permanent content.

Also, you’re not seriously thinking that I’d want literally all of their temporary content to suddenly be permanent, are you?

This has probably already been linked here within 7 pages… but if not, go have a look at this.

It’s a good explanation of why limiting yourself to just fun in games isn’t a good thing. There are SO many more things you can do in games.

Smith.1826:

To answer your original question about it – "Why did gw1 have dual classing which you could change at will anytime if it was meant to have “emphasis on class differentiation”" …

Havent you been arguing that there is no point in using a build that isnt optimal ? so how does it offer differentiation if there is no point is using skills from a secondary class?

Smith.1826:

By dodging and maintaining adequete use of your self heal. Guardian/warrior cleanse shouts optional, although reflects may be mandatory. ….

Gw2 is easy no doubt there but I assure you plenty of people are still downed and get killed so no self heal and dodging isnt enough by far which in turn means supporting them is not pointless.

Smith.1826:

And sure, the “goal of combat” in general has been to defeat the enemy. It’s the multiple and significant amount of ways that you can go about accomplishing that. There isn’t anything like that plays anything like the Monk did in GW1, and the only game that comes anywhere near to it is in mobas of all things.

Maybe it’s less an issue with the game being “clkitten”, moreso with it being shallow and thus boring. I’ve had far more interesting dynamics with teamplay in many different games, even many different RPGs. As such, I haven’t found replayability for it in GW2.

perhaps the problem here is you’re limiting yourself because you decided anything apart from dps is not worthed because like i explained there is plenty of play choices you can make just cause you’re not forced into them it doesnt mean you can ignore them. Take dungeons for example, why did arenanet feel they had to prevent graveyard rushes? because players were never dieing or because players didnt care about playing decently and felt that constantly dieing and rushing back to continue the fight was a good way of playing?

Smith.1826:

This paragraph doesn’t make a lot of sense, especially that last bit, but I’ll try to make-do:
Whether or not the reward is worth it isn’t relevant, and if it wasn’t “necessary” then it wouldn’t be here.

That would be true if all players liked exactly the same thing. They dont. Ascended gear is for players who want better gear because cosmetics for them is not a valid reward. It is relevant for them. For players like me who couldnt care less about better gear it isnt necessary. Does that mean because it isnt necessary for me it can be removed? no it plays a purpose for other players. Its kinda like consumables. They’re there for people who want to get a small edge but that doesnt mean that people who ignore them cant enjoy the game cause they’re at a sever disadvantage right?

Smith.1826:

Maybe I couldn’t because my computer died. Maybe I didn’t own the game yet. Maybe I felt “burnt out” from trying to keep up with it all, while keeping up with real life. No matter what the reason is, please don’t put words in my mouth.

Its not that I want to put words in your mouth its that you’re arguing scenarios that only truly exist on paper. You computer died fine, tough luck it will happen once every few years at most dont think its a big deal. You dont own the game yet you dont know the storyline how can it be emotionally investmented in it? if you were burnout then the temporary nature of content is actually helping you. imagine if all the 2 weeks content remained permanently and you got burned out and you stopped for say a month. when you come back instead of 2 weeks of content to complete you got 6 weeks to catch up or else end up permanently behind which will likely meaning you’ll end up playing solo for the rest of the gw2 lifetime. Honestly I think here permanent content would be much worst not better.

Smith.1826:

And I feel that the developers could satisfy both those needs: a good, immersive story with a huge helping of permanent content.

Also, you’re not seriously thinking that I’d want literally all of their temporary content to suddenly be permanent, are you?

Isnt this already happening though? MF and AR have already promised to come back in some form in fractals. Mini games came back on a rotation which was a good idea. Design was shifted to allow content behind like the new path in TA for example or the invasions or Aetherblade retreat etc..

Dont get me wrong, I am not against players getting access to past content, they can put every LS as is in the mists, I am entirely fine with that, this is not about me got to play this and you didnt hahah kinda of thing, I just like the idea of an evolving world where things happen and change results from it nothing else.

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is it really isnt.

I vehemently disagree. I’ve had nowhere near the same amount of fun in build making as I have in GW1, and certainly not the same amount of interesting and meaningful options. There’s also no longer the emphasis on class differentiation: There’s no longer a “jump” in playstyle between classes that was as interesting as warriors to monks.

As such, GW2 is one of the most straightforward and basic games I’ve played.

I’ve played all 8 classes in GW2; they feel very different to me.. There are many things I’m unhappy with about GW2 (especially: I think the designers are falling into the trap of encouraging participation via extrinsic rewards — loot — rather than focusing on making the content actually fun to play).

I’m not entirely happy with the class system — I did have more fun playing with builds in GW1.

But the play style for heavy / medium / light classes feels very different. Guard and Warrior feel somewhat similar, but Guardian has utilities which are rather different from Warriors’ — and I like using those + magic weapons, so the way I play these two is not the same.

All the rest are so obviously different … ele with attunement swapping, mesmer with clones, ranger with spirits & pets, thief with stealth, engineer with kits, necro with death shroud and minions …

There are common threads in how fields and finishers work — you just get a different set of each for each class — but managing your class-specific skills plenty to differentiate.

Smith.1826:

Because I certainly think gear grinds and temporary content – and other things – are absolutely harmful. Of course, I also know that some people enjoy kittenroaches…

This I agree with.

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Too late.

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Except that’s what people have been asking for…. so apparently that is what they want. Maaaaybe not you or me specifically, but obviously we aren’t loud enough to offset those crying for those things.

Galen Grey.4709:

Which game have you ever played that the goal of combat was not killing the mob.

The difference is that all classes in GW2 are designed to be DPS, with a side of something else (and sometimes that side of something else is more DPS). In other games the game is designed to include characters for whom personally killing the mob is not a/the main (if at all) design element for group play.

A character who does no damage, without adversely affecting the group’s performance, while increasing the group’s effectiveness through other means is a common option in other games. Less so here. That is not a pet peeve of mine as I prefer DPS plus soft CC as a play style. But I know others for whom the emphasis on DPS is a bit of a bummer.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

The addition of new things to Tyria via the LS is not an indication of the passage of time. It is functionally not significantly different than another game adding new content, with the temporary aspect as an exception.

Its pretty easy to test the lack of passage of time in terms of world evolution/story development in game, go to AC, CM, etc.

Personally I do not consider the lack of passage of time in game to be a problem.

Old content that wasnt delivered through LS is yes frozen in time but I am talking about the LS, that content was definitely not frozen in time.

We had the molten alliance invasion which created refuges as they ravaged towns (here we could see cragstead in flames) the invasion themselves stopped once we destroyed their molten facilities (passage of time, we had an invasion and we actually stopped it) the refugees went to southsun cove and helped with building up the infrastructure (new structures, refugees in southsun, refugees no longer in LA, Black citadel and haelbrak… passage of time) we helped release the refugees from their contract and so they left the consortium oppression but still needed somewhere to go. They opted to move to cragstead and help rebuild the place (now cragstead is no longer a pile of burning rubble its being rebuilt and you can find those refugees there again more passage of time)

A lack of passage of time isnt a problem no but it makes for a less exiting less immerssive game world.

I don’t see what you describe about the LS as being significantly different than introducing evolution to the game world in larger chunks through an expansion. A game receiving zone(s) sized expansion, perhaps explorers just found it, perhaps denizens of the new zone invaded the game world and now heroes are tracking the invaders back to the source of their power, etc, is expanding upon/evolving the game’s storyline just as is the case with the LS. The difference is a matter of the size and rate of the delivery. In both cases, generally, the existing content remains static.

This difference is similar to a serial TV show vs a sequential series of movies. In both cases the setting’s story evolves as “content” is added, just in different sized chunks at different rates. I don’t consider either to be inherently superior.

Galen Grey.4709:

Havent you been arguing that there is no point in using a build that isnt optimal ?

Not at all. If you get confused by what I say, you should reread my earlier posts.

Smith.1826:

Gw2 is easy no doubt there but I assure you plenty of people are still downed and get killed so no self heal and dodging isnt enough by far which in turn means supporting them is not pointless.

Only if you’re inexperienced. I rarely ran into people this bad while pugging for my DM title. GW2 gives you plenty of tools to sustain yourself, and if everyone else is up to snuff then there is no point in healing, in cc, etc.

That would be true if all players liked exactly the same thing. They dont.

Agreed. As someone who wants that gear, it’s grind. And the grind rewards me with better stats. And theres no way to get it that isn’t grind.

It’s not whether or not it’s optional. Saying “you don’t need it” ignores the point, so please don’t try to steer away from it.

Its not that I want to put words in your mouth its that you’re arguing scenarios that only truly exist on paper.

No computer never dies, GW2 can still be purchased, and people can feel burnt-out from GW2 for playing it so much because they care about it and don’t want to miss any content. None of this may apply to you or me, but it can certainly apply to others.

Dont get me wrong, I am not against players getting access to past content, they can put every LS as isI just like the idea of an evolving world where things happen and change results from it nothing else.

You can achieve that while also putting a bigger emphasis on permanent content. If player population is a concern, this can be fixed with scaling, as seen in nearly every zone. You see a bunch of permanent content as something you’d have to “burn through”, others will be able to enjoy experiencing it on their own terms.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Except that’s what people have been asking for…. so apparently that is what they want. Maaaaybe not you or me specifically, but obviously we aren’t loud enough to offset those crying for those things.

I would think casual players are ok with that, because they don’t play the game for hours. But people who do and have acquired some skill in a certain area of the game, albeit combat or jumping puzzles, feel the need for using that skill, not being forced into mindless action.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Except that’s what people have been asking for…. so apparently that is what they want. Maaaaybe not you or me specifically, but obviously we aren’t loud enough to offset those crying for those things.

We actually got a game that applies to both our groups but you have to be willing to choose what you love playing rather then whats more profitable.

Galen Grey.4709:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Except that’s what people have been asking for…. so apparently that is what they want. Maaaaybe not you or me specifically, but obviously we aren’t loud enough to offset those crying for those things.

We actually got a game that applies to both our groups but you have to be willing to choose what you love playing rather then whats more profitable.

Quoted for truth. People who must play the most efficient way are gimping their own enjoyment. Play the most fun way, and don’t worry about rewards.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Which game have you ever played that the goal of combat was not killing the mob.

The difference is that all classes in GW2 are designed to be DPS, with a side of something else (and sometimes that side of something else is more DPS). In other games the game is designed to include characters for whom personally killing the mob is not a/the main (if at all) design element for group play.

A character who does no damage, without adversely affecting the group’s performance, while increasing the group’s effectiveness through other means is a common option in other games. Less so here. That is not a pet peeve of mine as I prefer DPS plus soft CC as a play style. But I know others for whom the emphasis on DPS is a bit of a bummer.

But they arent, they’re designed to be all 3 at once. If people decide to focus exclusively on DPS is because they decide to focus exclusively on DPS. Taking the necro as an example, If it was designed primarly for DPS like you say why would it have the staff weapon? Direct damage is pretty small 246 dmg every 4/3 of a second (compare that to say dagger 604 dmg every 1/4 of a second.) and has all other 4 skill do miniscule damage with only 1 of them providing an offensive damage condition. While at the same time you got regen, chill, fear, and transfer of conditions. To me thats not a weapon designed for DPS thats a weapon designed for support and Crowd control.

Ashen.2907:

I don’t see what you describe about the LS as being significantly different than introducing evolution to the game world in larger chunks through an expansion. A game receiving zone(s) sized expansion, perhaps explorers just found it, perhaps denizens of the new zone invaded the game world and now heroes are tracking the invaders back to the source of their power, etc, is expanding upon/evolving the game’s storyline just as is the case with the LS. The difference is a matter of the size and rate of the delivery. In both cases, generally, the existing content remains static.

This difference is similar to a serial TV show vs a sequential series of movies. In both cases the setting’s story evolves as “content” is added, just in different sized chunks at different rates. I don’t consider either to be inherently superior.

Its not just the rate of release its what you can do with it. We had LS so far created 5 changes. Flame and frost and its invasion. Consortium taking over the refugees of the previous chapter in order to build up southsun. Sky pirates and their infiltration of LA. Scarlet and her assault on the jubilee. Lionguard assault on TA in retaliation.

Each section here happened because of the events that happened before it. Refugees built up Southsun because they were driven off by the invasions. Scarlet attacked the jublee because the molten alliance and sky pirates failed. Lionguard attacked TA because of retribution for the sky pirates killing off the Councillor etc.. Using expansions you have to either stretch the storyline over 5 years or use the usual trick… IE all of these states would exist all at once and time progression would only happen through quest dialog. Ergo even though you get to the point when scarlet is attacking the jublee, the invasions are still happening thus they wouldnt have failed thus in essence scarlet had no reason to attack the jubilee. Of course npcs will claim the invasion were beaten back even though every time you go through the area you’d see them happening. Its less immersive by far!

Yes its like comparing a series to a movie. but there is big difference between a series and a movie. In a series you do have certain advantages you dont have in a movie. Like character development for example. In a series like say babylon 5 the characters are explained so well that you can feel what the characters feel because you know where they’re coming from and how they think and how events shaped them. In movies you’re limited to stereotypes because there just isnt enough time. Babylon 5 can afford to show every single event that shapes a character developement which amounts to many hours. A movie can afford no more then 30 minutes and thats already stretching it.

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Except that’s what people have been asking for…. so apparently that is what they want. Maaaaybe not you or me specifically, but obviously we aren’t loud enough to offset those crying for those things.

We actually got a game that applies to both our groups but you have to be willing to choose what you love playing rather then whats more profitable.

Quoted for truth. People who must play the most efficient way are gimping their own enjoyment. Play the most fun way, and don’t worry about rewards.

Playing the most fun way does sadly also mean you miss out on some content.

Mathias.9657:

I think ANet have a very skewed view of fun since they dropped GW1.

Mindless grinding for example does not = fun.

But it does equal $$$

It’s what happens when companies start selling out instead of sticking with their ideals.

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

Havent you been arguing that there is no point in using a build that isnt optimal ?

Not at all. If you get confused by what I say, you should reread my earlier posts.

You did here are some examples of things you said in previous threads

“Then I’d highlight how silly it is to not have any monks and I’d bring my own monk. Because, unless you’re an ele, the protection and healing you’re going to try to bring without a monk is crap

I’d rather have someone who can heal and protect effectively.

It didn’t, it was just far from optimal. You could be a monk with all warrior skills, but a warrior would do it way better.The choice was there, but in many cases it was not optimal. In a team game, this is important."

Smith.1826:

Only if you’re inexperienced. I rarely ran into people this bad while pugging for my DM title. GW2 gives you plenty of tools to sustain yourself, and if everyone else is up to snuff then there is no point in healing, in cc, etc.

Right you’re saying pugs rarely down in dungeons if no one supports? You’re saying graveyard rush wasnt a thing?

Smith.1826:

Agreed. As someone who wants that gear, it’s grind. And the grind rewards me with better stats. And theres no way to get it that isn’t grind.

Of course there is, Log in an play whatever you choose to play (thats not grindy for sure) that gets you the daily which in turn means it gets you all the ascended trinkets.

no for the weapon. Everything can be bought (that means you can play again whatever you want to play to get the materials) except for 3 the new materials. To get the new materials you can do a different jumping puzzle, different world boss, different temple, different guild missions, WvW and a more… so its entirely possible to start working towards your ascended weapon and play something different until you get the stuff you need. Even if you did all that content before repeating it once again does not fall under the definition of grind.

Smith.1826:

No computer never dies, GW2 can still be purchased, and people can feel burnt-out from GW2 for playing it so much because they care about it and don’t want to miss any content. None of this may apply to you or me, but it can certainly apply to others.

I didnt say computers never die, I said thats a rare exception that shouldnt impact anyone’s design plans as something that needs provisioning for.

If you want a break you want a break you’re not going to miss not playing what you want to avoid on purpose. Having it piled up waiting for you when you come back will just help get you burn out again.

Smith.1826:

You can achieve that while also putting a bigger emphasis on permanent content. If player population is a concern, this can be fixed with scaling, as seen in nearly every zone. You see a bunch of permanent content as something you’d have to “burn through”, others will be able to enjoy experiencing it on their own terms.

Its not that simple this is not your typical mmo where content has an expirey date. What I mean is games like WoW can afford to add 1 dungeon a month if they wanted to because of their exclusive vertical progression. it will not matter in 10 years time because even though there would have been 120 dungeons added only 1 of them would be where the majority of the players are playing as the other 119 have been out leveled. In Gw2 that isnt the case. If you add 120 dungeons thats 120 dungeons where your players, which are a finite resources can be spread. finding 5 players for a particular dungeon will get more difficult as more content is added to the game. So they have to be careful how much they add to the game. There is a lot of group content in gw2 as is, dungeons with paths, fractals, mini games, world bosses, wvw, spvp, guild missions, etc… Some of it like guild missions, world bosses and WvW takes massive amounts of players as is.

Sirendor.1394:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sirendor.1394:

Keep going. Keep going. We want a game that is fun, not “grind x”, “farm y”, “zerg z”

Except that’s what people have been asking for…. so apparently that is what they want. Maaaaybe not you or me specifically, but obviously we aren’t loud enough to offset those crying for those things.

We actually got a game that applies to both our groups but you have to be willing to choose what you love playing rather then whats more profitable.

Quoted for truth. People who must play the most efficient way are gimping their own enjoyment. Play the most fun way, and don’t worry about rewards.

Playing the most fun way does sadly also mean you miss out on some content.

Like what exactly? Cause I do think I play the fun way and I dont think I missed any content since launch!

Protoavis.9107:

Mathias.9657:

I think ANet have a very skewed view of fun since they dropped GW1.

Mindless grinding for example does not = fun.

But it does equal $$$

It’s what happens when companies start selling out instead of sticking with their ideals.

how does it equal $$$?

Cause actually its quite the opposite in my view. Take the champion farming when that was introduced it because an good source of ingame gold. In game gold can be used to buy gems thus generating less money for Arenanet at the same time People who lacked the gold to buy in game stuff now have an easy way to make money thus have less incentive to convert gems into in game gold.

I dont see how it in any way equals more $$$ honestly.

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

Havent you been arguing that there is no point in using a build that isnt optimal ?

Not at all. If you get confused by what I say, you should reread my earlier posts.

You did here are some examples of things you said in previous threads…

I think what I’m saying is I don’t think you’re “helping out” the team if you bring something that’s ineffective. I’m fine with sub-optimal.

I can understand if you’re in a team with no monks, but the bigger issue is you put yourself on a team with no monks. The biggest benefit, the main intention of dual-classing was to give you access over some skills, just a hint of utility not native to your primary. It wasn’t intended to let you play whatever build you want, because the game was balanced as such.

Right you’re saying pugs rarely down in dungeons if no one supports?

Right. Your milage may vary but this has been my experience, and I’ve fared very well.

And I think graveyard zerging was more of a “thing” because it permitted very little penalties for dying.

Of course there is, Log in an play whatever you choose to play (thats not grindy for sure) that gets you the daily which in turn means it gets you all the ascended trinkets.

Cool! But oh no, I’ve already played everything at least once and now the game expects me to repeat things to get these rewards AND I’m broke, which means I have to do the content I “love doing” again and again.

And that’s how “grind” happens, and why I view most if not all of these rewards as “grindy”.

If you want a break you want a break you’re not going to miss not playing what you want to avoid on purpose.

I didn’t want to play the game. But I didn’t want to miss out on any content, either. Just because I’m taking a break doesn’t mean I’m “done” with it, and when I did get back around to playing it I want to be able to pick up from where I left off.

See this thread. This quote from Minibaryguy is very relavent:

“Also, just because someone wasn’t able to play through the content when it was first released does not mean that someone didn’t care enough to do so. Many people have life commitments that do not afford them the luxury to prioritize a video game. That does not mean they should be punished by being forced to miss out on content. That is silly.”

Its not that simple this is not your typical mmo where content has an expirey date.

I’m well aware. But it also does something else that most MMOs aren’t able to do: scale content according to the number of players. Using dungeons is a bad example since it’s content strictly designed for five players. That’s why I used zones as an example.

Galen Grey.4709:

how does it equal $$$?

When there’s a lot of people turning gold into gems, the price for it keeps going up. A player may “cave in” and see all the farming he has to do and just say “screw it, I’m turning cash into gems”.