Guild Wars 2

BlueOcean.5380:

Vayne.8563:

In fact, I’m not really sorry. It’s obvious you don’t have a clue how public companies work. Do you have any idea what happens to public companies that try to hide losses to investors?

Ok, you are right, dear. I had no idea! I never heard of what you just said!

Snarky, I like it. At any rate, we don’t really know that the NPE has anything to do with weak sales in China. Western games, traditionally, don’t do well in China. And Asian games tend not to do well in the west too. This has been going on for a very long time.

Is anyone else at the point of “I’m not mad, I’m actually impressed” that the last 5-6 pages have become a kitten of Vayne vs. Everyone who says anything?

Seriously, gentlemen – you could do us all a service, go through and delete all your non-topic posts, take the arguing over minutae to PM and maybe, just maybe, we’ll have a long thread about a contentious topic that doesn’t get closed because of personal arguments that are completely off topic.

My feedback:

- My biggest gripe is that t took away the charm of the starter zones by removing content. RIP golem chess :,(
- Introduced two friends to the game after the 75% sale. Explaining various game mechanics was insanely annoying when they were so limited. They could not even see half the things I saw on the map.
- Leveling new alts without tomes has become a grind. I need to be lvl60 to unlock master traits and 80 to unlock grandmasters? Man, that is some bull.
- And of course, story inconsistencies.

stale.9785:

Is anyone else at the point of “I’m not mad, I’m actually impressed” that the last 5-6 pages have become a kitten of Vayne vs. Everyone who says anything?

Seriously, gentlemen – you could do us all a service, go through and delete all your non-topic posts, take the arguing over minutae to PM and maybe, just maybe, we’ll have a long thread about a contentious topic that doesn’t get closed because of personal arguments that are completely off topic.

Thanks for another off topic post. However, I think pointing out that China sales might have nothing to do with the NPE is valid for the thread.

In fact, here’s a recap of what’s happened so far.

1. Anet came out with the NPE. It was pretty buggy when it came out.
2. Players complained about the NPE, quite vocally, in large numbers. Much of the information that was presented by those people was incorrect and several people commenting had never tried the NPE themselves.
3. Anet fixed bugs and made changes that weren’t bugs to the NPE. These fixes included being able to get skill points on level 2 characters after you level your first character with the NPE and other changes like that. Those changes included unlocking weapon skills at different levels than they were when the NPE originally came out. Originally the NPE had you unlocking your elite skill at 40. Anet moved it to 31.
4. The amount of complaints about the NPE after that update slowed considerably. There are people who were appeased by those changes. Not all people obviously but some, perhaps many.

As far as I can tell, this is all fact, and on topic and part of what I’ve been arguing. The trait system, which many add into the NPE as part of the NPE is being reworked for sure. The story quests are being reverted and improved. This we know.

The story change was one groups biggest complaint about the NPE.

It’s not quite the same as it was when the NPE came out.

stale.9785:

Is anyone else at the point of “I’m not mad, I’m actually impressed” that the last 5-6 pages have become a kitten of Vayne vs. Everyone who says anything?

Seriously, gentlemen – you could do us all a service, go through and delete all your non-topic posts, take the arguing over minutae to PM and maybe, just maybe, we’ll have a long thread about a contentious topic that doesn’t get closed because of personal arguments that are completely off topic.

Well to be honest, it takes two people or parties to have a discussion.

We’ve all said our pieces multiple times already. If Anet’s just going to create this thread several months ago and then just pretend that it doesn’t exist (save for poking in once half-heartedly saying “Hey, we didn’t forget about you! Honest!”) then there’s only so much you can discuss.

And of course it doesn’t help when one party just says “Neener! I’m right! You’re wrong! Nyahh!” ad nauseum (you know who I’m talking about).

Really, NPE is such a destructive move to GW2 that sometimes I have a fleeting fantasy it’s a mole working on bringing GW2 down; then I shake my head and say to myself, “No, can’t be.”

At the same time, I do feel time is of essence. If ANet doesn’t do anything about NPE and some other things, another dev team will come along— Ideas such as dynamic event will be done; beautiful zones can be done; a better economy system can be done; and NPE won’t be there to kill immersion. It can end up too late for GW2 to claim a throne in being the “Iphone” of mmorpgs.

Exp sharing among players who hit a mob is already copied by LOTRO.

EQ came out in 1999. WoW 5 years later, in 2004. Once a model is known, it’s a lot easier to do another version of it. GW2 has been out since 2012. Even though its ideas were at the forefront, it won’t be hard for another game to copy the good parts and create new territory. If that should happen, I will still think fondly of Anet, who pioneered the future.

I guess I was sort of in love with ANet for the manifesto. Unfortunately that seems to be gone, lost somewhere between NPE and grinding.

Somehow I’m not too hopeful NPE will be erased. So, take care everyone. We can always keep on dreaming. :p (ok, for the people who disagree, change that to I can always keep on dreaming. :p)

Well, since we don’t know the numbers, it’s always possible that in spite of the veteran’s complaints about how it’s affecting them that it’s doing what it was intended to do, retain new players longer. That’s one possible reason why ANet hasn’t changed the NPE in spite of numerous posts by non new players.

Astral Projections.7320:

Well, since we don’t know the numbers, it’s always possible that in spite of the veteran’s complaints about how it’s affecting them that it’s doing what it was intended to do, retain new players longer. That’s one possible reason why ANet hasn’t changed the NPE in spite of numerous posts by non new players.

Really this is what it’s all about. Are more new players staying than old players leaving over the NPE.

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

I don’t think most older players love it. I think most older players don’t really give it much thought one way or another (again my opinion).

But the real question has always been how the NPE affects the players that say came in on the $10 sale, again as compared to how many people will actually leave because of it.

Astral Projections.7320:

Well, since we don’t know the numbers, it’s always possible that in spite of the veteran’s complaints about how it’s affecting them that it’s doing what it was intended to do, retain new players longer. That’s one possible reason why ANet hasn’t changed the NPE in spite of numerous posts by non new players.

Ok, fair enough.

But what I and other people have been advocating is the OPTION to chose which way you want to level up.

It would be better than throwing people away. As you said, the people that go may justify the people that it retains. I’m not a manager, but if I could effing easily retain both groups, would it not be the right approach to take?

Edit:

Vayne.8563:

Really this is what it’s all about. Are more new players staying than old players leaving over the NPE.

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

I don’t think most older players love it. I think most older players don’t really give it much thought one way or another (again my opinion).

But the real question has always been how the NPE affects the players that say came in on the $10 sale, again as compared to how many people will actually leave because of it.

You’re absolutely right, it may be a matter of perspective. They refuse to even let us see the numbers, over proving either faction right or wrong. Proving either faction right would either force them to take action and correct/add option, or demonstrate they don’t give a hoot about what old player-base may think or want.

First time posting in this thread, my thoughts:
I have a gamer friend who has very similar tastes in games as I do. I spent months and months convincing him to get into GW2, because I was so sure he’d love it, esp since he’s been itching for a good MMO but has been let down by things like WoW and SWtor for the same reasons I was.

He got GW2 right after NPE. He didn’t like the game at all. I was honestly so surprised because we usually like ALL the same games! He wouldn’t explain why, probably felt bad for letting me down. But then I read up on how much NPR dumbed down the game and limited the new player experience, and I can’t help but wonder if theres a connection. This friend of mine is smart and an experienced gamer. Not an buffoon who never touched a 3D game before. I’m kind of embarrassed to try and recommend GW2 to my other gamer friends now.

IMO all anet needed to do to improve npe tutorial windows, cause there was much too few to begin with, and some QoL stuff. They wasted too much time and effort on realigning the entire game.

Vayne.8563:

Astral Projections.7320:

Well, since we don’t know the numbers, it’s always possible that in spite of the veteran’s complaints about how it’s affecting them that it’s doing what it was intended to do, retain new players longer. That’s one possible reason why ANet hasn’t changed the NPE in spite of numerous posts by non new players.

Really this is what it’s all about. Are more new players staying than old players leaving over the NPE.

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

I don’t think most older players love it. I think most older players don’t really give it much thought one way or another (again my opinion).

But the real question has always been how the NPE affects the players that say came in on the $10 sale, again as compared to how many people will actually leave because of it.

Considering how old this thread is now, 5 months, if ANet’s numbers were showing a drop in new player retention then it would have shown up by now. I expect it would have shown up in the first month if it were enough to be significant. I can’t see a company holding on to a build that is doing the opposite of what it was supposed to do, not for months and hurting their bottom line. (Compared to the trait system where they have changed it already in response to feedback and plan to change it even more)

I’ve only leveled new chars to level 20 but truthfully I didn’t see what the fuss is about. The part about dancing for the cows is no worse and not significantly different than the heart in the Diessa Plateau where you threaten, sit, or bow to cows. It occurred to me if the game at launch had people dancing to the Queensdale cows and it was changed to carrying food to them there would have been even more posts about that change and how dancing added flavor to the area and how feeding cows ruined that heart and was boring.

For hand health reasons, I could do without all the pop up rewards when leveling that I have to click on, but getting rewarded frequently is a proven method to keep people interested. It was mildly annoying to have to backtrack to a skill point, but I’ve leveled 4 to level 20 to see the new system at low level and leveling was so fast it was at most 3 skill points I had to back track to, not a large number, and in the amount of time that you play a character, a tiny percent of the play time.

The Power Of Choice

Ashendale.2165:

But what I and other people have been advocating is the OPTION to chose which way you want to level up.

It would be better than throwing people away. As you said, the people that go may justify the people that it retains. I’m not a manager, but if I could effing easily retain both groups, would it not be the right approach to take?

That would indeed be a sensible approach, it’s all I’m really asking for, and if it had been considered and provided for when the changes were made, threads like this one and the (multiple) Trait Changes threads would be much, much shorter and a hell of a lot less acrimonious.

But that’s not what happened, so here we are.

For me, “here” is taking a break from GW2 (still my favorite game of all time, I should point out) except for the occasional log-in to grab a quick daily bag, maybe taking one of my level 80s out for a quick spin and checking for any news of substance about when we can expect changes to the character development experience.

So far, same old same old, and that’s not surprising, because these things do take time.

The Power Of One

In the meantime, I recommend that my fellow players not get caught up in an endless cycle of finger-pointing and recriminations. As easy as it is to fall into, it is ultimately less satisfying than doing other things, and frankly less productive than doing nothing at all.

ArenaNet has given us threads like these to offer our feedback. When we do, we speak only for ourselves, not millions of other players. Other players speak for themselves, mostly by voting with their feet rather than posting in forums, and how they spend their leisure time is entirely up to them, not us.

The developers of this fine game can see what all players are actually doing when they log in (or don’t log in) and don’t need the forums at all to know what players like and don’t like. The numbers speak clearly enough for themselves.

My hope is that they will lead ArenaNet to make better decisions about the Guild Wars 2 player experience in 2015 than they made in 2014.*

But that’s just me.

Your Mileage May Vary.

…

* In fairness, ArenaNet did make some excellent decisions in 2014; I just don’t think the trait changes and NPE were among them.

Vayne.8563:

I think that people who hate it really hate it...but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

Here we go again... *sighs*

Astral Projections.7320:

Vayne.8563:

Astral Projections.7320:

Well, since we don’t know the numbers, it’s always possible that in spite of the veteran’s complaints about how it’s affecting them that it’s doing what it was intended to do, retain new players longer. That’s one possible reason why ANet hasn’t changed the NPE in spite of numerous posts by non new players.

Really this is what it’s all about. Are more new players staying than old players leaving over the NPE.

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

I don’t think most older players love it. I think most older players don’t really give it much thought one way or another (again my opinion).

But the real question has always been how the NPE affects the players that say came in on the $10 sale, again as compared to how many people will actually leave because of it.

Considering how old this thread is now, 5 months, if ANet’s numbers were showing a drop in new player retention then it would have shown up by now. I expect it would have shown up in the first month if it were enough to be significant. I can’t see a company holding on to a build that is doing the opposite of what it was supposed to do, not for months and hurting their bottom line. (Compared to the trait system where they have changed it already in response to feedback and plan to change it even more)

I’ve only leveled new chars to level 20 but truthfully I didn’t see what the fuss is about. The part about dancing for the cows is no worse and not significantly different than the heart in the Diessa Plateau where you threaten, sit, or bow to cows. It occurred to me if the game at launch had people dancing to the Queensdale cows and it was changed to carrying food to them there would have been even more posts about that change and how dancing added flavor to the area and how feeding cows ruined that heart and was boring.

For hand health reasons, I could do without all the pop up rewards when leveling that I have to click on, but getting rewarded frequently is a proven method to keep people interested. It was mildly annoying to have to backtrack to a skill point, but I’ve leveled 4 to level 20 to see the new system at low level and leveling was so fast it was at most 3 skill points I had to back track to, not a large number, and in the amount of time that you play a character, a tiny percent of the play time.

they have had traits for 10 months and the said they believe it isnt the right solution. You cant change things overnight, and it costs money and time that may be used somewhere else.

It is highly likely they will not backtrack because its not worth it.
Truth is, its highly likely they are no longer focused on new player retention at this juncture, and more focused on renewing interest among older players. Hence, an expansion that is focused on level 80+ content, and is theoretically supposed to be more challenging and require you to use the combat system better than previous content.

low level npe is annoying, but its not a game breaker, especially if they make it last for a shorter period by increasing exp, or giving out leveling scrolls.

Astral Projections.7320:

The part about dancing for the cows is no worse and not significantly different than the heart in the Diessa Plateau where you threaten, sit, or bow to cows. It occurred to me if the game at launch had people dancing to the Queensdale cows and it was changed to carrying food to them there would have been even more posts about that change and how dancing added flavor to the area and how feeding cows ruined that heart and was boring.

Don’t forget the cow suit combat training. You know, I have never understood why we weren’t able to train up an entire Bovine Battalion to help in the fight against the Elder Dragons. We could even have a crack special forces type unit, the Cattlepult Corps, that get ‘air dropped’ (ahem) behind enemy lines. No Elder Dragon would expect that and would therefore be unlikely to have any sort of cattle guard strategy prepared.

Ponder: perhaps, thanks to the NPE, we already have this in game. Perhaps the cows in Queensdale are not the bucolic bovines of better days, but G.I. Bessies, highly trained combat cows preparing to ship out to the front lines. They surely deserve a little R&R before they go. Excuse me, I think I’ll log in. There are some brave cows in need of entertainment.

Vayne.8563:

But there are people with low IQs. You’re probably a smart guy and smart people don’t realize that most people are average.

Well, this is a >real< game. People that stare 12h/day on their smart phone “games” and enjoy playing Farmville might not be able to understand this. That’s exactly what some EA creative director said recently: “Two hours to learn a game are way too much”. Seems like EA doesn’t remember they were behind Dragon Age.

A book with more than 100 pages might be too complicated as well. Also, authors should always add at least 25 direct speeches per page so that even humans who don’t like reading can still read the book if they at least pay for it. Continuous text with extensive descriptions? Who needs that anyway?

See what I did there? I wonder how so many of us are still able to understand a Song of Ice and Fire.

Vayne.8563:

There’s this thread right now on reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2vqowu/new_player_with_some_questions/
This guy is level 15 and doesn’t know what to do. He just doesn’t. Now I’m not saying he’s not intelligent. I’m saying he could be quite smart, but he’s from other games that give you very clear breadcrumb trails. This game doesn’t.
So any help you can give players that aren’t as quick as you are isn’t a bad thing. Frustrated people do leave games.

His post is from 12 days ago. Seems like the allmighty NPE couldn’t help him with his confusion, right? Maybe just maybe, instead, it was because of the NPE that he got confused in the first place. You know they greatly decreased the EXP you get from your personal story quests, also, they disabled portal for new players. Even if he wants to level up in another starting area, he can’t. And I also don’t think the player on reddit is dumb or anything. I see him as a (exaggerated) victim to the NPE system. When I started the game right after its relese, I never heard someone complained about the “beginning is too complicated” or “I don’t know what to do”. Our screens weren’t half this overstuffed than today. I really wonder what the problem might be if it isn’t the NPE.

Vayne.8563:

These changes weren’t meant for you and an experienced player can travel through them very quickly.

Nope, they removed many starting area quests. Even an experienced player is now forced to do certain tasks to complete a heart, since 2/4 options do not work anymore.

Vayne.8563:

We cater to people for the game to exist and continue. That’s why the average/lowest common denominator has always been catered to. Games that are aimed at only the highest percentage of the population tend to be ignored by the rest of the population..but MMOs today are too competitive to not try to get everyone they can get. You end up with a niche game, which is fine, but then it gets updated less, because it’s a niche game. It becomes a vicious circle.

Ah yes, I remember some players who thought the recent living story updates were too hard. I hope they know these aren’t solo-musts. They can always open a group with “z” and find someone who can help them. Or look for guilds that are especially friendly to beginners. This is GUILD Wars 2, you know…

What I can’t explain here again, is your theory about “if it’s too hard you will end up with a niche game”. On what evidence do you write this? During Living Story Season 1, which was really not that easy compared to todays content, most of my friends played and enjoyed the game, now only two of them are still active players. Same goes for Tequatl, the strategy behind the battle makes lots of people curious and even if they fail, they are hyped to try it again. If we assume you are right, that would mean that for the first year of Guild Wars 2, ArenaNet was constantly working against their present target audience. Why making Tequatl stronger, or create the 3 worms or even think about enemies like Liadri or Kezurak? That is, according to ArenaNet, NOT what gives them CASH.

What’s next? Removing jumping puzzles or adding auto-portals? Making NPCs stronger in dungeons, so that a 5man group must only hit “1” to get through? Or will they flash up every skill you have on 1-5 for when it’s the best time to use it?

Everyone can now dodge if they can distinguish a red circle from a normal floor. But why does almost nobody today help their teammates when they are lying on the ground? This NPE system doesn’t help players at all. Learning by doing and idle curiosity are the natural enemies of it.

“If it doesn’t blink like crazy it must be impossible!”

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

/shrug. In that case all games have power creep, as you are now defining it. All chars start off with minimal skills and unlock more skills as they progress. Guild Wars 1 had this all along and Guild Wars 2 also had this since the beginning as you had to unlock weapon skills by getting new weapons and restarting the learning of them from autoattack. Utility, elite skills and traits didn’t unlock till later levels also.

However, that’s not the way that term is defined (google it) which is why I asked.

By the way, you might want to read up on the definition of vertical progression also.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Ashendale.2165:

Ashendale.2165:

Astral Projections.7320:

Well, since we don’t know the numbers, it’s always possible that in spite of the veteran’s complaints about how it’s affecting them that it’s doing what it was intended to do, retain new players longer. That’s one possible reason why ANet hasn’t changed the NPE in spite of numerous posts by non new players.

Ok, fair enough.

But what I and other people have been advocating is the OPTION to chose which way you want to level up.

It would be better than throwing people away. As you said, the people that go may justify the people that it retains. I’m not a manager, but if I could effing easily retain both groups, would it not be the right approach to take?

Edit:

Vayne.8563:

Really this is what it’s all about. Are more new players staying than old players leaving over the NPE.

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

I don’t think most older players love it. I think most older players don’t really give it much thought one way or another (again my opinion).

But the real question has always been how the NPE affects the players that say came in on the $10 sale, again as compared to how many people will actually leave because of it.

You’re absolutely right, it may be a matter of perspective. They refuse to even let us see the numbers, over proving either faction right or wrong. Proving either faction right would either force them to take action and correct/add option, or demonstrate they don’t give a hoot about what old player-base may think or want.

I don’t know what company publishes retention numbers anyway. I don’t know how much the expansion announcement would have made those metrics useless because hype brings people to the game anyway.

You’re saying that we want this argument solved, so Anet should start telling us business information. All they really need to do is say yes it’s working.

But I don’t think that the changes are as fundamental as most people are claiming, particularly on the second character you level through. Yes, I can see where it might be a bit inconvenient, but from the start, this whole thing has worked itself up into a feeding frenzy. It’s also been fused with frustration about the trait system. If that issue didn’t exist, I’m absolutely convinced we wouldn’t have that same amount of people who are discontent. And that system is changing. And the story thing is changing. That’s a decent percentage of people complaining.

Sure, though. I’d love to hear from Anet, particularly since Colin did say he’d tell us.

ShelBlackblood.7826:

Vayne.8563:

But there are people with low IQs. You’re probably a smart guy and smart people don’t realize that most people are average.

snip

Vayne.8563:

There’s this thread right now on reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2vqowu/new_player_with_some_questions/
This guy is level 15 and doesn’t know what to do. He just doesn’t. Now I’m not saying he’s not intelligent. I’m saying he could be quite smart, but he’s from other games that give you very clear breadcrumb trails. This game doesn’t.
So any help you can give players that aren’t as quick as you are isn’t a bad thing. Frustrated people do leave games.

His post is from 12 days ago. Seems like the allmighty NPE couldn’t help him with his confusion, right? Maybe just maybe, instead, it was because of the NPE that he got confused in the first place. You know they greatly decreased the EXP you get from your personal story quests, also, they disabled portal for new players. Even if he wants to level up in another starting area, he can’t. And I also don’t think the player on reddit is dumb or anything. I see him as a (exaggerated) victim to the NPE system. When I started the game right after its relese, I never heard someone complained about the “beginning is too complicated” or “I don’t know what to do”. Our screens weren’t half this overstuffed than today. I really wonder what the problem might be if it isn’t the NPE.

Vayne.8563:

These changes weren’t meant for you and an experienced player can travel through them very quickly.

Nope, they removed many starting area quests. Even an experienced player is now forced to do certain tasks to complete a heart, since 2/4 options do not work anymore.

Vayne.8563:

We cater to people for the game to exist and continue. That’s why the average/lowest common denominator has always been catered to. Games that are aimed at only the highest percentage of the population tend to be ignored by the rest of the population..but MMOs today are too competitive to not try to get everyone they can get. You end up with a niche game, which is fine, but then it gets updated less, because it’s a niche game. It becomes a vicious circle.

Ah yes, I remember some players who thought the recent living story updates were too hard. I hope they know these aren’t solo-musts. They can always open a group with “z” and find someone who can help them. Or look for guilds that are especially friendly to beginners. This is GUILD Wars 2, you know…

What I can’t explain here again, is your theory about “if it’s too hard you will end up with a niche game”. On what evidence do you write this? During Living Story Season 1, which was really not that easy compared to todays content, most of my friends played and enjoyed the game, now only two of them are still active players. Same goes for Tequatl, the strategy behind the battle makes lots of people curious and even if they fail, they are hyped to try it again. If we assume you are right, that would mean that for the first year of Guild Wars 2, ArenaNet was constantly working against their present target audience. Why making Tequatl stronger, or create the 3 worms or even think about enemies like Liadri or Kezurak? That is, according to ArenaNet, NOT what gives them CASH.

What’s next? Removing jumping puzzles or adding auto-portals? Making NPCs stronger in dungeons, so that a 5man group must only hit “1” to get through? Or will they flash up every skill you have on 1-5 for when it’s the best time to use it?

Everyone can now dodge if they can distinguish a red circle from a normal floor. But why does almost nobody today help their teammates when they are lying on the ground? This NPE system doesn’t help players at all. Learning by doing and idle curiosity are the natural enemies of it.

“If it doesn’t blink like crazy it must be impossible!”

In this case my use of the word “too hard” means too hard to understand or too hard to get into, because we’re talking about the NPE. That type of too hard you’re referring to is a different type of too hard and that too can ruin a game for other people.

But if you lower the bar to entry level and give people more time to learn, it’s entirely possible that more people will stay with the game. Some of those people may never do a dungeon, or PvP. They may just bang around in the open world doing events. But they still might spend money in the cash shop and support the game, even if they’re just buying outfits and bank space. And supporting the game means the game continues.

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

/shrug. In that case all games have power creep, as you are now defining it. All chars start off with minimal skills and unlock more skills as they progress. Guild Wars 1 had this all along and Guild Wars 2 also had this since the beginning as you had to unlock weapon skills by getting new weapons and restarting the learning of them from autoattack. Utility, elite skills and traits didn’t unlock till later levels also.

However, that’s not the way that term is defined (google it) which is why I asked.

By the way, you might want to read up on the definition of vertical progression also.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Yes, all games have a power creep, even GW2 prior to the NPE. Which is why I stated it introduced even more of a power creep.

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

/shrug. In that case all games have power creep, as you are now defining it. All chars start off with minimal skills and unlock more skills as they progress. Guild Wars 1 had this all along and Guild Wars 2 also had this since the beginning as you had to unlock weapon skills by getting new weapons and restarting the learning of them from autoattack. Utility, elite skills and traits didn’t unlock till later levels also.

However, that’s not the way that term is defined (google it) which is why I asked.

By the way, you might want to read up on the definition of vertical progression also.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Yes, all games have a power creep, even GW2 prior to the NPE. Which is why I stated it introduced even more of a power creep.

Okay I have a question then.

There have been for a long time, people on these forums asking for progression. Is there a way to give people progression without power creep?

I mean in Guild Wars 1 we were all far far more powerful after the Eye of the North skills came in with technobabble and pain inverter. When Nightfall came out before that, necros were far more powerful with necrosis. But without that advancement, how do you appease the people who play to see progression?

Vayne.8563:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

/shrug. In that case all games have power creep, as you are now defining it. All chars start off with minimal skills and unlock more skills as they progress. Guild Wars 1 had this all along and Guild Wars 2 also had this since the beginning as you had to unlock weapon skills by getting new weapons and restarting the learning of them from autoattack. Utility, elite skills and traits didn’t unlock till later levels also.

However, that’s not the way that term is defined (google it) which is why I asked.

By the way, you might want to read up on the definition of vertical progression also.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Yes, all games have a power creep, even GW2 prior to the NPE. Which is why I stated it introduced even more of a power creep.

Okay I have a question then.

There have been for a long time, people on these forums asking for progression. Is there a way to give people progression without power creep?

I mean in Guild Wars 1 we were all far far more powerful after the Eye of the North skills came in with technobabble and pain inverter. When Nightfall came out before that, necros were far more powerful with necrosis. But without that advancement, how do you appease the people who play to see progression?

67 pages… Go.

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

/shrug. In that case all games have power creep, as you are now defining it. All chars start off with minimal skills and unlock more skills as they progress. Guild Wars 1 had this all along and Guild Wars 2 also had this since the beginning as you had to unlock weapon skills by getting new weapons and restarting the learning of them from autoattack. Utility, elite skills and traits didn’t unlock till later levels also.

However, that’s not the way that term is defined (google it) which is why I asked.

By the way, you might want to read up on the definition of vertical progression also.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Yes, all games have a power creep, even GW2 prior to the NPE. Which is why I stated it introduced even more of a power creep.

Yet at the end of leveling, a level 80 from before the NPE has the same power as a level 80 from after the NPE, assuming same gear and same traits. If you end up at the same spot at the end, it’s not a power creep.

Or is it, while leveling, chars get powerful in chunks and not dribbles, then maybe it causes problems while leveling? Is that what you are saying? That’s still not power creep where over the years, max level characters reach higher levels and get stronger, (like WoW where the current max is level 100) since maxed level chars with the same gear and traits are equal to max level chars from before the NPE.

(Actually I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing as I’m using the accepted definition and it seems you using your own definition where it’s not about max level characters, who with each new content release get ever stronger gear and in most cases relevel to a new max level (like WoW and how it has people relevel and regear with each expansion).

Please revert the trait changes and return the old tier tomes that unlock all traits in that tier in bulk.

If necessary, just bump up the coin costs if you REALLY want that gold sink there. But as it is now, the current method of buying traits individually is beyond ridiculous. It’s not good for the “New Player Experience”, it’s not good for the Veteran Player Experience, it’s not good for anybody in the middle.

Why you felt the need to fix something that was never broken is beyond me, especially after the much welcome change of free respecs out of combat.

Alternatively, if you’re going to stick with having to buy every trait individually, at least make them account bound unlocks to justify the steep coin and skill point costs.

My first post on these forums
I’m a long time player and supporter of guild wars, been playing since release of guild wars 1. I played gw2 since release and recently tried to get back into it with a new guardian since my friends bought it for $10 during the weekend sale. I’m glad to see I’m not the only one disappointed with recent changes. My biggest issue is the level gating of story missions. there is simply too much downtime between story arcs. I enjoy exploring and such but not for 10 whole levels! the previous system flowed much more naturally, play story roam around for a bit, play story again. I also enjoyed playing missions underleveled as they were most challenging and fun that way. Now wayy too easy.
It’s basicalky too boring now, will have to abandon new character until they fix this somehow. I’m not only speaking as a veteran, my friends are bored and lost as to what to do as well. The game does nothing to grab your attention right at the start. You have to gain 10 levels before something interesting happens (I.e first story arc).
Please fix! I want to love the game lol
Cheers!

Adetsu.9843:

My first post on these forums

Welcome to the jungle!

Adetsu.9843:

My biggest issue is the level gating of story missions. there is simply too much downtime between story arcs.

Yes. I wish they’d filled in the gaps instead of making the gaps wider. There’s so much more that could have been added, to ENRICH the experience of the game’s players, new or old. Adventures with krewes, warbands, friends and family; lore to discover, people and places to see. These hypothetical adventures wouldn’t even have to share the same ‘people drifting against a watercolor background while chatting’ format as the existing story missions — text works for me! — just fill in the dang gaps! With something fun and adventurous and personal to make the world seem more (ahem) LIVING than the static hearts and clockwork events. Alas! We got metricized instead.

Opportunities…

Adetsu.9843:

Cheers!

Qapla’!

Vayne.8563:

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

It’s your only hope.

Astral Projections.7320:

Or is it, while leveling, chars get powerful in chunks and not dribbles, then maybe it causes problems while leveling? Is that what you are saying?

Yes.

I’ve been leveling several characters through the new progression and I can confirm that it feels very counter intuitive. Before, the story would slowly pull me through zones but since I get it in chunks now, I don’t have any direction to go through till every milestone.

On my main characters, I can clearly see the progression of those characters across the world based on their map completion as I typically don’t try to clear an entire zone when I visit new areas and it’s a very interesting feeling to see their journeys across Tyria through the hearts and points of interest they’ve seen and completed.

What makes this worse is when you hit x5 where you have no particular direction to go and it’s a strange leveling stop with nothing particular happening. Also, the fact your stats don’t really change till you hit this stat burst makes it a pain to try and tackle areas that are even slightly higher than your level to get those last bits of experience is much more difficult than it should be.

HandOfKane.5409:

Vayne.8563:

I think that people who hate it really hate it…but I think their feelings about it make them believe they’re greater in number than they are (just my opinion here). In other words they dislike it so much that they can’t conceive of that not being the most common reaction.

It’s your only hope.

Astral Projections.7320:

Or is it, while leveling, chars get powerful in chunks and not dribbles, then maybe it causes problems while leveling? Is that what you are saying?

Yes.

Yeah, that is a problem. I haven’t leveled a char enough to encounter it so I only know what I’ve read on the forum. Why ANet did it this way instead of a more steady stat increase is anyone’s guess. I would think the steady increase would be more rewarding then the current system.

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

Astral Projections.7320:

Guhracie.3419:

I’d like to, once again, air my major issues with the NPE, and share how it continues to impact my gaming.

It introduced another power creep. In both progression CDI threads, one thing that was stated over and over again was that a power creep was unwanted. There were tons of suggestions for other systems of progression, but it was nearly unanimous that adding power imbalances to the game wasn’t a really fun option.

Snip

Power creep? I must be missing something. How does the New Player Experience cause level 80s to be stronger?

By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.

EDIT: I’m using Nike’s infamous “Moa test” from the CDI threads. If at level 80, you can kill a moa faster than you could at level 1, that’s a power creep.

Hmmm. Power creep is a term in MMOs that mean successive expansions/content of a game have increased levels and more powerful gear, such as WoW’s player’s need to get better gear with each new expansion, causing old content and maps to become outdated and too easy to play in. For example, dungeons that originally required a full team become so easy with the player’s increase in power that they become soloable. The traditional meaning has nothing to do with how skills are handed out while leveling.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/06/the-soapbox-the-problem-with-power-creep-and-progression/

Power creep refers to vertical progression. Having access to more of your abilities does make you more powerful. This post (particularly the last paragraph) is what I was talking about, and I just spent an hour dredging through Nike’s post history to find it- it was a plainswurm and not a moa. Having access to 1 weapon skill is much weaker than having access to all 5. Thus, it introduced a power creep that previously didn’t exist.

/shrug. In that case all games have power creep, as you are now defining it. All chars start off with minimal skills and unlock more skills as they progress. Guild Wars 1 had this all along and Guild Wars 2 also had this since the beginning as you had to unlock weapon skills by getting new weapons and restarting the learning of them from autoattack. Utility, elite skills and traits didn’t unlock till later levels also.

However, that’s not the way that term is defined (google it) which is why I asked.

By the way, you might want to read up on the definition of vertical progression also.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/strangesands/122012/24271_What-is-Horizontal-Progression-Really

Yes, all games have a power creep, even GW2 prior to the NPE. Which is why I stated it introduced even more of a power creep.

Yet at the end of leveling, a level 80 from before the NPE has the same power as a level 80 from after the NPE, assuming same gear and same traits. If you end up at the same spot at the end, it’s not a power creep.

Or is it, while leveling, chars get powerful in chunks and not dribbles, then maybe it causes problems while leveling? Is that what you are saying? That’s still not power creep where over the years, max level characters reach higher levels and get stronger, (like WoW where the current max is level 100) since maxed level chars with the same gear and traits are equal to max level chars from before the NPE.

(Actually I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing as I’m using the accepted definition and it seems you using your own definition where it’s not about max level characters, who with each new content release get ever stronger gear and in most cases relevel to a new max level (like WoW and how it has people relevel and regear with each expansion).

Astral, I’m using a definition that was used extensively on this very forum in two developer-led discussions about progression. It does not seem to fit with what wikipedia says it means, and yet it was good enough to go unchallenged during both progression CDI threads. I’m sorry for the confusion, but it’s how those terms were used then.

Guhracie.3419

Astral, I’m using a definition that was used extensively on this very forum in two developer-led discussions about progression. It does not seem to fit with what wikipedia says it means, and yet it was good enough to go unchallenged during both progression CDI threads. I’m sorry for the confusion, but it’s how those terms were used then.

Ok. I see. Well, just a comment then. If you are using a non dictionary definition but a definition drawn from 2 threads among the group of people posting on those threads on just this forum, you might want to define it or refer to it with a link when you use it later somewhere else (and not just say “By doling out skills in small chunks, and later in the experience. I thought that would be fairly obvious.”) as not everyone will have read those 2 threads and know what you are referring to.

In preparation for Heart of Thorns, I’ve been leveling alts. Today I was running around Queensdale and every few minutes had to explain to a low level player why they couldn’t see Vistas and/or Skill Points on their map. They seemed to think it was a bug instead of by design and got frustrated when they were unable to obtain a Skill Point until a later level.

Personally, when I log into a new game for the first time, I want to see a bunch of things that I will have the opportunity to learn about. I spend the first 10 minutes or so of a new game looking through the menus at skill trees and looking at the map to see what sorts of things there are to do. Being unable to use my skills and unable to see things on the map would be an overall frustrating experience that I would have to wade through to get to more interesting content.

Another thing to note is that when I was first leveling up I was amazed at how helpful people were. If there was anything that confused me I asked about it and got a great answer. I’m worried that new players will be asking questions about why they can’t do certain content instead of how to use their abilities effectively and won’t realize how great of a community we have.

The Problem: Too much of the game’s content is locked out to new players.

Since the changes in the September 2014 Feature Pack there has been content locked out to new players that shouldn’t be locked out. This confuses players who want to jump into the content right away and makes there appear to be less content than there actually is. Much of what is unlocked in the first 15 levels or so feels arbitrary and unnecessary.

The Solution: Have much of the content currently unlocked in the first 15 levels be available from the beginning.

• Specifically, I think that everything necessary for map completion should be unlocked right away. This means Vistas, Skill Points, and Points of Interest.
• I also feel that traits should be accessible earlier so that players can get that feeling of progression earlier. Level 20 might be a better place to unlock traits.
• Overall, all content that gets locked out with the leveling system should be reconsidered. Every level does not need to bring some mechanical change to the game. Getting purely item rewards and stat gains succeeds in making players feel rewarded for leveling up.

If anyone has any other ideas for how the leveling system can be improved, I would be very interested. I just feel that it would be better to have skill points unlocked from the beginning and to get a cool new hat when I reach level 13. Then I would be giving new players advice on how to play the game well instead of why things aren’t showing up on their map.

Thanks for reading and stay amazing.

As far as I know, HoM will at least change the way traits will be handled / unlocked.
Many other things should get an update, too… at least the skillpoint/vista thingies.

The funny this is that at release we didn’t have those problems. These were introduced starting in last April with the Traits changes and then last September with the NPE.

Fluffy.1932:

The Problem: Too much of the game’s content is locked out to new players.

Since the changes in the September 2014 Feature Pack there has been content locked out to new players that shouldn’t be locked out. This confuses players who want to jump into the content right away and makes there appear to be less content than there actually is. Much of what is unlocked in the first 15 levels or so feels arbitrary and unnecessary.

In other words: the game was good as it was. Good point.

Fluffy.1932:

The Solution: Have much of the content currently unlocked in the first 15 levels be available from the beginning.

• Specifically, I think that everything necessary for map completion should be unlocked right away. This means Vistas, Skill Points, and Points of Interest.
• I also feel that traits should be accessible earlier so that players can get that feeling of progression earlier. Level 20 might be a better place to unlock traits.
• Overall, all content that gets locked out with the leveling system should be reconsidered. Every level does not need to bring some mechanical change to the game. Getting purely item rewards and stat gains succeeds in making players feel rewarded for leveling up.

1st point: again, game was good as it was.
2nd point: they say they are reviewing the dumb trait changes, so I’ll hold my tongue, but your suggestion seems to make more sense that the current system.
3rd point: agree. Not only that, but the actual stat leveling only happens on certain levels. Meaning you see your level go up, but for all practical combat purposes, you are as you were. The item bonuses are just shinny stuff we’re thrown to ignore how bad the changes were. Also, we can’t salvage the items, so they’re pretty useless, considering we get a lot of stuff either from mob killing, or Renowned Hearts.

Bottom line: trait changes and NPE were a waste of time, money and resources. To make it worst, they are wasting more time, money and resources to try and save face rather than just reverting the whole changes. In less than a month the trait changes will be around for a year. A year of a broken, dumb system. We can expect at least as much time for the leveling to be fixed…

I just want my natural weapon skill unlocking again. That change alone was heartbreaking.

Oh and traits, but we have a different thread for that.

So I got a 2nd account because I wanted to try WvW on NA servers, been playing on EU for 2 years now, but didn’t want to switch until I check how the ping is going to affect me. I happily made 1st character, wanted to do the daily, which was Kryta mining , but didn’t see any ore nodes in Queensdale. Nor trees.

When I asked in mapchat what happened to the nodes, someone told me that Anet level-gated map information until level 7. What? Surely that person is trolling me, because why would the game hide map info from it’s players? That is plain nonsense. So I checked. And yes, it is level-gated. Seriously?

“It was confusing for new players” is not a good explanation – it is an insult to the players if you think we’re that stupid to be confused by gathering nodes. Have more faith in humanity, Anet. I didn’t see a problem with map info the 1st time I started the game. On the contrary, there is a problem with this NPE, especially when I see the Daily (!) but can’t see the nodes. Now that is confusing.

Ok, mini-rant over. Query:
1) Is there a way to toggle off these changes and go back to the normal leveling? You know, for human-level intelligence, not amoeba-level intelligence.
2) Is there a way to link the accounts? To show to the game that I’m not a newbie, that I’ve played this for 2 years and that I don’t need hand-holding?

Other solution: Please let us buy lvl20 scrolls (like those from the birthday gift), so that we can skip most of the ridiculous lvl-gating that is the most off-putting thing about this game. If leveling without scrolls looks like this now, than I will absolutely not recommend this game to anyone.
Anet, you should be happy if people buy a 2nd account, this kind of leveling is not what your supporters deserve.

tl;dr Got a 2nd acc. NPE is beyond horrible. Is there a way to toggle off NPE and go back to the normal leveling? Or to link accounts? If not, please fix it.

No, you can’t turn it off. You can however bypass some of it. For example, you might not be able to see the icons on the map, however the stuff is still there and you can access PvP through the portals in Lion’s Arch. The NPE also greatly reduced the time it takes to level up to ~13. It takes around an hour by just following the hearts.

Get out of the first few areas of Queensdale and you’ll run into the nodes. I’ve been playing a second account as well and it looks like they’ve been taken out of the level 1 -5 areas. If you have tools then keep going further and you’ll find something to dig/hack/slash.

Queries: no, and no.

Also, there are no nodes in the lower level portions of the starter zones anyway. By the time you’re of a high enough level to do areas where there are nodes, you’ll be able to see them.

If you’re a veteran, you should be able to level up past the worst of the restrictions in no time. Just get on and do stuff.

You cant turn it off, deal with it.

7 of my characters are pre NPE, while one is post.

Its utter hell to level that ranger. I literally have no traits at level 50 because I used a 20 scroll, some tomes, spent all my skillponts on skills and… realize that traits cost a buttload of skillpoints as well. The achievement demands for them are ridiculus.

The NPE in current GW2 is sPvP all day long, then use the tomes and skillpoint to get PvE skills.

On the upside, sPvP has tons of people compared to before, lol.

Ok, thanks for the answers guys.

I guess it’s gonna be PvP + EotM grind (cough manifesto cough) before getting to the enjoyable part of GW2 (using all weapons skills for a start).
I have 2 post NPE chars on the other account, but I used lvl20 scrolls and bought the traits. Didn’t realise how utterly fun-less that initial part of the leveling is after the change.

Anet: I will still not recommend the game, and actively discourage my friends from buying it until NPE has a toggle on/off mode.

The initial part of leveling takes far less time to get through then previously. You don’t really know what you’re talking about. Find your own fun though since that’s really what its all about.

zenleto.6179:

The initial part of leveling takes far less time to get through then previously. You don’t really know what you’re talking about. Find your own fun though since that’s really what its all about.

I do, in fact, know what I’m talking about. “My own fun” is higher level content and leveling pre-NPE. I do not consider this bacterial-lvl-intelligence hand-holding to be fun. Pressing 1, without anything else available, gets boring veeery fast. No matter that overall leveling may be quicker.
I stand by what I said, this change is ridiculous. The sooner Anet reverts it, the better. Until then, I’m no longer their supporter.

And I stand by what I said. Including the find your own fun bit.

he does know what he is talking about. NPE experience is absolutely horrible. The only reason new people stand it, is because they never played the game without it. Even the downed state has to be unlocked. They locked behind the most simple and vital parts of the leveling experience that really they shouldn’t have locked.

My take on NPE:

“Play the way you want to play” as long as it’s in concordance with all the unnatural barriers and hand-holding we(Anet) impose on you

Not levelling any new players until post-HoT when they’ve said trait unlocks at least will be gone again.

It’s hilarious how the NPE is supposed to ease new players into the game, but at the same time confuses the hell out of them. And anyone who knows what they are doing but can’t turn it off goes into rage mode regularly. Myself included, and I’m rather patient when it comes to stuff that, ultimately, is just a game after all.

I do so hope it gets changed back into something that requires more than the skills and intelligence of an amoeba to level up. At least I think the traits “system”/trainwreck is getting a rework at the moment. It’s the single biggest reason my brand new elementalist has spent most of her time in PvP, and I don’t even like PvP that much. But then I still have to unlock T3 traits I need for PvP builds in PvE (in level 80 areas no less, which this character can’t access because I want to level her up with tomes first to avoid the awful new “leveling experience”) or dump a hundred skillpoints to get them, which I don’t have because my character isn’t even level 30 yet. Gah >.<

I feel you, OP. At least an option to turn it off if one so wishes would be greatly appreciated. I know some things aren’t locked once you have gotten one character to a certain level, but there is still so much that’s locked and makes absolutely no sense to me.

Fluffy.1932:

Today I was running around Queensdale and every few minutes had to explain to a low level player why they couldn’t see Vistas and/or Skill Points on their map. They seemed to think it was a bug instead of by design and got frustrated when they were unable to obtain a Skill Point until a later level.
[sip]
The Problem: Too much of the game’s content is locked out to new players.
[sip]
Much of what is unlocked in the first 15 levels or so feels arbitrary and unnecessary.

I have been saying that for months now. About map completion and stuff, it can be easily noticed by the amount of threads in this forum about that:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/When-I-press-M-cant-see-thta-board-on-left
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Wvw-Scoreboard-B-is-not-opening
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/map-completion-panel-missing
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Can-t-dicover-trident-recipes
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Can-t-see-Vistas-on-map
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Cannot-commune
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/SOLVED-All-I-wanna-do-is-play
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Skill-challenges-unable-to-activate
(I could go on and on…)

Fluffy.1932:

Personally, when I log into a new game for the first time, I want to see a bunch of things that I will have the opportunity to learn about. I spend the first 10 minutes or so of a new game looking through the menus at skill trees and looking at the map to see what sorts of things there are to do. Being unable to use my skills and unable to see things on the map would be an overall frustrating experience that I would have to wade through to get to more interesting content.

Cannot agree more and I’m used to do the same.

Snow.2048:

I just want my natural weapon skill unlocking again. That change alone was heartbreaking.

Highlight is mine, isn’t it more clear about how it was before?