Guild Wars 2

Meglobob.8620:

Just like to make a point about loot.

In the recent feedback threads on the general discussion forum, WvW and PvP forums, about 80-90% of players listed LACK OF REWARDS, as a MAJOR problem with GW2.

Anets response? NERF rewards even more…

They ask for feedback and then ignore it all.

Its no wonder the forums get toxic…those feedback threads are just PR, looks like they have no intention of listening.

I still regularly across all toons get hit with the DR poison even when venturing into different zones and not killing the same monsters over and over. The only way I can make ANY money at all in this game is by gathering mats or doing the meta boss farm with my Guild. Most of the time though my ‘heroes’ are reduced to being lumberjack miners to get gold.

This is exactly why I have moved into sPvP and WvWvW.
I keep 5-10g on my account at all times (Farm the Champ/MetaBoss to maintain) then go into WvW.

IMHO, outside of WvW, GW2 is very broken.

And even the current WvWvW Season is broken BECAUSE anet did not account for last minute server transfers! So some of the servers are beat 3:1 based on population. Just another short comming that Anet created.

Qaelyn.7612:

Grinding is self-imposed. That’s true in all MMOs and especially true in this one, from what I’ve been able to tell so far. I was actually shocked at how small the difference is in stats between super-expensive and very affordable items.

If this was GW1 the difference would be zero instead of small.

juno.1840:

Qaelyn.7612:

Grinding is self-imposed. That’s true in all MMOs and especially true in this one, from what I’ve been able to tell so far. I was actually shocked at how small the difference is in stats between super-expensive and very affordable items.

If this was GW1 the difference would be zero instead of small.

If only they had somehow overhauled and upgraded GW1 and never made GW2….

Suggestion, there is a middle ground – implement diminishing returns on Champions.

Excessive and repeated killing of Champion-only mobs creates the reduced Champion loot. Killing “x” Champions in 30-minutes every 4-20 hours shouldn’t start DR.

This allows players to come across a Champion or three and find a rewarding experience for the time invested. Champion farming for the sake of reduced rarity rewards (as it it currently) could still happen as well to discourage the game economic issues.

Charak.9761:

EnemyCrusher.7324:

GW2 isn’t supposed to be about grinding or farming, so this change is a positive step to help move away from that.

You must be new, you find out why its Grind Wars 2 after a bit longer.

I have over 12,700 AP. Go ahead, enlighten me.

In response to you and the others saying pretty much the same thing, I said that it isn’t supposed to be about grinding. I’m not saying that there isn’t a ton of grinding in the game currently, but that this is a step away from that, which is the right direction.

Meglobob.8620:

Just like to make a point about loot.

In the recent feedback threads on the general discussion forum, WvW and PvP forums, about 80-90% of players listed LACK OF REWARDS, as a MAJOR problem with GW2.

Anets response? NERF rewards even more…

They ask for feedback and then ignore it all.

Its no wonder the forums get toxic…those feedback threads are just PR, looks like they have no intention of listening.

Those people are specifically talking about sPvP and WvW, which does not pertain at all to the “champ train”. Most of those people were actually saying that it isn’t fair that PvE farmers get such better rewards than WvW/sPvP players, so this change actually appeals to them.

Qaelyn.7612:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Malediktus.9250:

I think they should nerf champ loot again to not drop champ loot from bosses if you didnt do at least 10-20% damage to it (open world only, dungeon stay as is)

I think they should nerf dungeon loot ‘cuz I don’t do dungeons.

It’s not about you and what you do or don’t do. I know, it’s hard to believe.

Yes, that’s the entire point of my post.

Artaz.3819:

Suggestion, there is a middle ground – implement diminishing returns on Champions.

Excessive and repeated killing of Champion-only mobs creates the reduced Champion loot. Killing “x” Champions in 30-minutes every 4-20 hours shouldn’t start DR.

This allows players to come across a Champion or three and find a rewarding experience for the time invested. Champion farming for the sake of reduced rarity rewards (as it it currently) could still happen as well to discourage the game economic issues.

Why would you say that? DR is never ok It’s really one of the worst parts of GW2.

EnemyCrusher.7324:

Meglobob.8620:

Just like to make a point about loot.

In the recent feedback threads on the general discussion forum, WvW and PvP forums, about 80-90% of players listed LACK OF REWARDS, as a MAJOR problem with GW2.

Anets response? NERF rewards even more…

They ask for feedback and then ignore it all.

Its no wonder the forums get toxic…those feedback threads are just PR, looks like they have no intention of listening.

Those people are specifically talking about sPvP and WvW, which does not pertain at all to the “champ train”. Most of those people were actually saying that it isn’t fair that PvE farmers get such better rewards than WvW/sPvP players, so this change actually appeals to them.

They are not…there were 3 separate threads, the PvE one had 80%+ players saying rewards were rubbish.

I think its not just about quantity of loot, but variety.

Also, how often do you equip a drop on your character? I have all 8 classes at level 80 and all there equipment was bought on the TP or bought via dungeon tokens or WvW badges.

99.99% of all drops are salvaged/sold.

SHM.7628:

Artaz.3819:

Suggestion, there is a middle ground – implement diminishing returns on Champions.

Excessive and repeated killing of Champion-only mobs creates the reduced Champion loot. Killing “x” Champions in 30-minutes every 4-20 hours shouldn’t start DR.

This allows players to come across a Champion or three and find a rewarding experience for the time invested. Champion farming for the sake of reduced rarity rewards (as it it currently) could still happen as well to discourage the game economic issues.

Why would you say that? DR is never ok It’s really one of the worst parts of GW2.

DR is a valid mechanic to thwart unintended extremes in the player base. The game as a whole is fairly complex and with over a million players, someone will find the “lowest effort path” to get ahead. Chances are that path will be something the Developers didn’t foresee.

The DR is a simple measure to plug those unforeseen holes.

EDIT: Honestly do you think the Developers want players to run in a big loop through Frostgorge killing all the available champs, over and over and over, for many hours a day?

juno.1840:

EDIT: Honestly do you think the Developers want players to run in a big loop through Frostgorge killing all the available champs, over and over and over, for many hours a day?

I think they don’t mind too much. This was an obvious consequence of giving champions reasonable loot and it’s good for the economy because gold and crafting mats aren’t in nearly as short supply as they were a year ago. The only way to stop it is to revert champ loot to where it was before, or close to it anyhow, which will drive prices of high level mats through the roof and implode the economy. If they wanted it stopped, they would have ripped off the band aid already and done it.

Also some of us actually DO have fun running the champ train, as weird as it may sound.

juno.1840:

SHM.7628:

Artaz.3819:

Suggestion, there is a middle ground – implement diminishing returns on Champions.

Excessive and repeated killing of Champion-only mobs creates the reduced Champion loot. Killing “x” Champions in 30-minutes every 4-20 hours shouldn’t start DR.

This allows players to come across a Champion or three and find a rewarding experience for the time invested. Champion farming for the sake of reduced rarity rewards (as it it currently) could still happen as well to discourage the game economic issues.

Why would you say that? DR is never ok It’s really one of the worst parts of GW2.

DR is a valid mechanic to thwart unintended extremes in the player base. The game as a whole is fairly complex and with over a million players, someone will find the “lowest effort path” to get ahead. Chances are that path will be something the Developers didn’t foresee.

The DR is a simple measure to plug those unforeseen holes.

EDIT: Honestly do you think the Developers want players to run in a big loop through Frostgorge killing all the available champs, over and over and over, for many hours a day?

There is a constant struggle in MMO’s between developers — who want to keep players playing — and players — who want to reach their goals as fast as possible (after which they complain about nothing to do). DR is just a weapon developers use to hinder players from quickly reaching their goals. Whether it’s a valid mechanic or not depends on whether you’re using that weapon, or are its target.

IndigoSundown.5419:

juno.1840:

SHM.7628:

Artaz.3819:

Suggestion, there is a middle ground – implement diminishing returns on Champions.

Excessive and repeated killing of Champion-only mobs creates the reduced Champion loot. Killing “x” Champions in 30-minutes every 4-20 hours shouldn’t start DR.

This allows players to come across a Champion or three and find a rewarding experience for the time invested. Champion farming for the sake of reduced rarity rewards (as it it currently) could still happen as well to discourage the game economic issues.

Why would you say that? DR is never ok It’s really one of the worst parts of GW2.

DR is a valid mechanic to thwart unintended extremes in the player base. The game as a whole is fairly complex and with over a million players, someone will find the “lowest effort path” to get ahead. Chances are that path will be something the Developers didn’t foresee.

The DR is a simple measure to plug those unforeseen holes.

EDIT: Honestly do you think the Developers want players to run in a big loop through Frostgorge killing all the available champs, over and over and over, for many hours a day?

There is a constant struggle in MMO’s between developers — who want to keep players playing — and players — who want to reach their goals as fast as possible (after which they complain about nothing to do). DR is just a weapon developers use to hinder players from quickly reaching their goals. Whether it’s a valid mechanic or not depends on whether you’re using that weapon, or are its target.

I think it’s more that Developers have a vision on how they want Players to “play their game”. Ultimately some Players break that vision. Since it’s very difficult to predict the outcomes of every game design decision, safeguards need to be in place. Some examples are time gating and diminishing returns.

A company can error on the “heavy” or “light” side of how the safeguards are implemented. (Example of “heavy”: time gating on charged crystals, example of “light”: ? any ideas here?).

I can’t speak for the Developers, but I’m confident the “champ trains” were not part of their vision on how they want Players to play their game.

juno.1840:

I can’t speak for the Developers, but I’m confident the “champ trains” were not part of their vision on how they want Players to play their game.

If not then they need better vision. They know champs repop in a certain amount of time after being killed, they know they just gave people an actual reason to kill champs and if they didn’t put 2 and 2 together well…honestly I think they did because I like to believe the people running the game aren’t stupid.

GoldenTruth.2853

……
Dungeon rewards need fixing, but that should be done by changing the end reward to match a proper risk reward. Many people still tend to skip any mobs they can even if there is a champ tossed in anyway.
……..

Agreed. This drives me CRAZY. Raaaaaawwwrrr! If a dungeon lists an objective, DO IT!! This is a dungeon, not a express check-out line. What especially makes me crazy is when a thief is insistent upon shadow refuging the party past a group of mobs that repeatedly aggros to the party when shadow refuge expires and the mobs pile on the slowest member of the party (I’m not whining, cuz it’s not me) because they are the closest. This causes said thief to scrutinize everyone else for what they could be doing wrong.

In the time it has taken for this to fail so many times, we could have just killed the mobs. If that isn’t the case, go make a better build. —Exit Soapbox Stage Right--

Elusive.9481:

GoldenTruth.2853

……
Dungeon rewards need fixing, but that should be done by changing the end reward to match a proper risk reward. Many people still tend to skip any mobs they can even if there is a champ tossed in anyway.
……..

Agreed. This drives me CRAZY. Raaaaaawwwrrr! If a dungeon lists an objective, DO IT!! This is a dungeon, not a express check-out line. What especially makes me crazy is when a thief is insistent upon shadow refuging the party past a group of mobs that repeatedly aggros to the party when shadow refuge expires and the mobs pile on the slowest member of the party (I’m not whining, cuz it’s not me) because they are the closest. This causes said thief to scrutinize everyone else for what they could be doing wrong.

In the time it has taken for this to fail so many times, we could have just killed the mobs. If that isn’t the case, go make a better build. —Exit Soapbox Stage Right--

Really though, the end reward should be based on the objectives that were completed. It’s not like the game doesn’t know you didn’t do them. Some have chests, yes, but many, many do not.

Like, in AC, why do so many insist on skipping past the graveling burrow at the very beginning of Explorable Mode? The WP is BEFORE the burrow, meaning anyone who has to WP back has to run past said graveling burrow alone and have it beat up on them. Why don’t we just destroy it now as a complete party and have it done. It doesn’t respawn, and the objective is listed in the upper right unless you destroy it. Is this really saving any time? No. No it is not.

Elusive.9481:

Really though, the end reward should be based on the objectives that were completed. It’s not like the game doesn’t know you didn’t do them. Some have chests, yes, but many, many do not.

Like, in AC, why do so many insist on skipping past the graveling burrow at the very beginning of Explorable Mode? The WP is BEFORE the burrow, meaning anyone who has to WP back has to run past said graveling burrow alone and have it beat up on them. Why don’t we just destroy it now as a complete party and have it done. It doesn’t respawn, and the objective is listed in the upper right unless you destroy it. Is this really saving any time? No. No it is not.

Except, these are called ‘bonus’ objectives. Meaning you have the choice. Same with Cave Troll and Kholer. There are very few dungeon paths in the game where you can finish the path without doing all the required objectives, and those paths require flat out exploiting to do so.

Skipping bonus events because they give no reward and save no time is a pretty obvious choice to be honest. You can run past the burrow without being hit once, it’s called the dodge key.

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

No they’re not exploits, but they are boring and unfun.

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

If that is true, there’s no need to stack in the corner, you could be fighting the boss simple in the room from melee range.
But the fact that you have to stack in the corner is the obvious proof of non-intended fight mechanic, therefore a bug (using which to your/party advantage is called an exploit). Please don’t try to enlighten me about gaming bugs/glitches/exploits, have seen really a lot of them in my life, therefore it’s not needed nor required.

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

If that’s the case, then kiting a boss at range to avoid it’s hard hitting melee attacks is also exploiting.

So, from now on, you should never range Lupicus again, because you’re obviously exploiting.

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

If that’s the case, then kiting a boss at range to avoid it’s hard hitting melee attacks is also exploiting.

So, from now on, you should never range Lupicus again, because you’re obviously exploiting.

So you really don’t see a difference between kiting a boss (therefore using something which can be considered a “skillful” behaviour) and a stacking in a corner like a bunch of sitting ducks and profiting anyway?

Well, congratulations on achieving the next level of MMO thinking, I rather not talk about how its called….

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

If that’s the case, then kiting a boss at range to avoid it’s hard hitting melee attacks is also exploiting.

So, from now on, you should never range Lupicus again, because you’re obviously exploiting.

So you really don’t see a difference between kiting a boss (therefore using something which can be considered a “skillful” behaviour) and a stacking in a corner like a bunch of sitting ducks and profiting anyway?

Well, congratulations on achieving the next level of MMO thinking, I rather not talk about how its called….

It’s funny how defensive you got when I used your own argument against you.

It is exactly the same thing. Some bosses don’t use certain melee attacks when you’re at range, just like some bosses don’t use certain range attacks when you’re at melee.

Also, the irony of calling range kiting skillful while stacking melee is supposedly not.

The spider queen still uses some of her (pretty hard hitting) melee attacks when she’s in the corner. You either need a decent Guardian to provide the needed Aegis and condition cleanse, or kill her fast enough before she wipes you. Ironically enough, many PUGs do neither of those 2 things and usually wipe because of it.

But if you really consider stacking in melee an exploit to avoid ranged attacks, but don’t consider spreading out in range to avoid melee attacks one, at least argue why you believe so. Because to me, it is exactly the same thing.

Bright.9160:

But if you really consider stacking in melee an exploit to avoid ranged attacks, but don’t consider spreading out in range to avoid melee attacks one, at least argue why you believe so. Because to me, it is exactly the same thing.

I already did before your first post about this case. Just scroll up a bit.

Also, you mentioned a decent guardian. Well, a decent Guardian don’t need 4 other ppl to kill her at all, she’s really not so hard-hitting in melee after all, I guess

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

If that is true, there’s no need to stack in the corner, you could be fighting the boss simple in the room from melee range.

Well, you can. it’s still easier than going range. And while hiding in the corner is an exploit, it is not an exploit for melee, but for line of sight mechanics. that spider boss can use her abilities just fine, it’s just that due to LoS shenanigans you can avoid attacks from the spawns.

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

If that is true, there’s no need to stack in the corner, you could be fighting the boss simple in the room from melee range.

Well, you can. it’s still easier than going range. And while hiding in the corner is an exploit, it is not an exploit for melee, but for line of sight mechanics. Boss can use most of the abilities just fine, it’s just that due to LoS shenanigans you can avoid attacks from the spawns.

Yeah, it’s a LoS exploit, I see I forgot to mention that. Thanks for stating that, I hope it will make more sense to others in the discussion as well, now.

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

If that is true, there’s no need to stack in the corner, you could be fighting the boss simple in the room from melee range.

Well, you can. it’s still easier than going range. And while hiding in the corner is an exploit, it is not an exploit for melee, but for line of sight mechanics. Boss can use most of the abilities just fine, it’s just that due to LoS shenanigans you can avoid attacks from the spawns.

Yeah, it’s a LoS exploit, I see I forgot to mention that. Thanks for stating that, I hope it will make more sense to others in the discussion as well, now.

Now it’s an LoS exploit? No it’s not. LoS’ing is a mechanic that’s in game, it’s not exploiting. It’s using a game mechanic to your advantage.

For the love of everything that is sane in this world, what do you guys not consider to be an exploit, if even using in game mechanics to make fights easier is already considered exploiting to you?

As for your ‘reasoning’ that you posted up higher and referred me to, that’s not really an argument that you made, you basically just said “I don’t understand why you don’t see it’s an exploit”.

As for the “not using mechanics when you’re in melee” argument, I’d like to refer you to the fact that that argument would make kiting at range to avoid melee attacks would be an exploit as well.

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

If that is true, there’s no need to stack in the corner, you could be fighting the boss simple in the room from melee range.

Well, you can. it’s still easier than going range. And while hiding in the corner is an exploit, it is not an exploit for melee, but for line of sight mechanics. Boss can use most of the abilities just fine, it’s just that due to LoS shenanigans you can avoid attacks from the spawns.

Yeah, it’s a LoS exploit, I see I forgot to mention that. Thanks for stating that, I hope it will make more sense to others in the discussion as well, now.

Now it’s an LoS exploit? No it’s not. LoS’ing is a mechanic that’s in game, it’s not exploiting. It’s using a game mechanic to your advantage.

For the love of everything that is sane in this world, what do you guys not consider to be an exploit, if even using in game mechanics to make fights easier is already considered exploiting to you?

As for your ‘reasoning’ that you posted up higher and referred me to, that’s not really an argument that you made, you basically just said “I don’t understand why you don’t see it’s an exploit”.

As for the “not using mechanics when you’re in melee” argument, I’d like to refer you to the fact that that argument would make kiting at range to avoid melee attacks would be an exploit as well.

Call it as you want, but there’s a big difference between using a game design (ranged kiting to avoid melee) and a design flaw (LoSing a monster in a corner where the whole group is stacked and faceroll the boss monster in there).

If you don’t see the difference, I’m afraid I can’t help you in any way…. Maybe if you were playing some of the good-old MMORPGs, you would know where’s the borderline between those (after being jailed a few times for exploiting….)

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Astralporing.1957:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

People always complain about ‘exploiting’ in dungeons, but every time you ask them to elaborate on the ‘exploits’ they’re witnessing, they usually say things like: stacking in melee and skipping mobs. Those are not exploits. They’re tactics.

Except that “tactics” when stacking in melee causes enemy to not use some of its abilities is an obvious exploit…. (like Spider Queen in AC for example)

Nope. if an enemy has some abilities that are designed to not work in melee range, then using that to your advantage is also part of that mob’s battle design.

If that is true, there’s no need to stack in the corner, you could be fighting the boss simple in the room from melee range.

Well, you can. it’s still easier than going range. And while hiding in the corner is an exploit, it is not an exploit for melee, but for line of sight mechanics. Boss can use most of the abilities just fine, it’s just that due to LoS shenanigans you can avoid attacks from the spawns.

Yeah, it’s a LoS exploit, I see I forgot to mention that. Thanks for stating that, I hope it will make more sense to others in the discussion as well, now.

Now it’s an LoS exploit? No it’s not. LoS’ing is a mechanic that’s in game, it’s not exploiting. It’s using a game mechanic to your advantage.

For the love of everything that is sane in this world, what do you guys not consider to be an exploit, if even using in game mechanics to make fights easier is already considered exploiting to you?

As for your ‘reasoning’ that you posted up higher and referred me to, that’s not really an argument that you made, you basically just said “I don’t understand why you don’t see it’s an exploit”.

As for the “not using mechanics when you’re in melee” argument, I’d like to refer you to the fact that that argument would make kiting at range to avoid melee attacks would be an exploit as well.

Call it as you want, but there’s a big difference between using a game design (ranged kiting to avoid melee) and a design flaw (LoSing a monster in a corner where the whole group is stacked and faceroll the boss monster in there).

If you don’t see the difference, I’m afraid I can’t help you in any way…. Maybe if you were playing some of the good-old MMORPGs, you would know where’s the borderline between those (after being jailed a few times for exploiting….)

As always when someone is complaining about LoS’ing being broken, I like to refer to this video. It’s a video from GW1, where there was no LoS’ing. When ranged foes couldn’t hit you, they would just keep hitting the wall. This guy effectively balled up over 70 foes that each hit extremely hard, by using wall tricks. This tactic was used in order to speed up the DoA run he was in by a good fair deal.

Now imagine LoS’ing not existing in GW2. People would just go stand behind some pillar or in a corner in order to lure in the melee foes, spike them down and then proceed to kill the ranged foes. Either that or use someone to quickly ball up the enemies using pulls like the ones I showed you and then going in and spiking the mobs anyway.

And no, unless you can objectively give me a reasoning why stacking in melee to avoid ranged attacks is and exploit whereas stacking in range to avoid melee attacks is not, I don’t see why it is. And saying “I don’t get why you don’t see it”, doesn’t make it any more clear to me.

As for the LoS spot, the reason people use it is not for the spider queen. She can just as easily be killed in the room by stacking in melee. In fact, it would be safer to do so in the room, because that way you can surround her in a circle, and only 1 or 2 people will get hit by her melee attacks, thus reducing party damage. The reason people use the corner next to the stairs is to lure in the tiny little spiders, because although they die fast, they can still hurt. If you stack in the corner, they all run in and you can cleave them down fast while using reflects, thus being safer and faster.

Bright.9160:

As always when someone is complaining about LoS’ing being broken, I like to refer to this video. It’s a video from GW1, where there was no LoS’ing. When ranged foes couldn’t hit you, they would just keep hitting the wall. This guy effectively balled up over 70 foes that each hit extremely hard, by using wall tricks. This tactic was used in order to speed up the DoA run he was in by a good fair deal.

Now imagine LoS’ing not existing in GW2. People would just go stand behind some pillar or in a corner in order to lure in the melee foes, spike them down and then proceed to kill the ranged foes. Either that or use someone to quickly ball up the enemies using pulls like the ones I showed you and then going in and spiking the mobs anyway.

And no, unless you can objectively give me a reasoning why stacking in melee to avoid ranged attacks is and exploit whereas stacking in range to avoid melee attacks is not, I don’t see why it is. And saying “I don’t get why you don’t see it”, doesn’t make it any more clear to me.

As for the LoS spot, the reason people use it is not for the spider queen. She can just as easily be killed in the room by stacking in melee. In fact, it would be safer to do so in the room, because that way you can surround her in a circle, and only 1 or 2 people will get hit by her melee attacks, thus reducing party damage. The reason people use the corner next to the stairs is to lure in the tiny little spiders, because although they die fast, they can still hurt. If you stack in the corner, they all run in and you can cleave them down fast while using reflects, thus being safer and faster.

Well, I haven’t seen anyone telling that LoSing should be removed. But if it has to be in-game, it should be working correctly, that’s all…. LoSing mobs to gain an advantage and to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic, it’s just another glitched feature, which players consider a “tactic”. But that doesn’t make it one. The fact Anet doesn’t care is just another story….
Origin did, and it was better gaming experience for everyone, trust me

STRanger.5120:

Well, I haven’t seen anyone telling that LoSing should be removed. But if it has to be in-game, it should be working correctly, that’s all…. LoSing mobs to gain an advantage and to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic, it’s just another glitched feature, which players consider a “tactic”. But that doesn’t make it one. The fact Anet doesn’t care is just another story….
Origin did, and it was better gaming experience for everyone, trust me

So… If I understand you correctly, you’re effectively telling me that using game mechanics to make fights easier is a glitched feature and thus exploiting? So, that means, anything you do to make fights easier is exploiting. Which would mean that using protection, reflects, condition removal, ranging to avoid melee attacks, melee’ing to avoid ranged attacks, blinds, cripple, CC… are all exploits, because they make fights easier?

Are you starting to see how flawed your argument is?

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Well, I haven’t seen anyone telling that LoSing should be removed. But if it has to be in-game, it should be working correctly, that’s all…. LoSing mobs to gain an advantage and to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic, it’s just another glitched feature, which players consider a “tactic”. But that doesn’t make it one. The fact Anet doesn’t care is just another story….
Origin did, and it was better gaming experience for everyone, trust me

So… If I understand you correctly, you’re effectively telling me that using game mechanics to make fights easier is a glitched feature and thus exploiting? So, that means, anything you do to make fights easier is exploiting. Which would mean that using protection, reflects, condition removal, ranging to avoid melee attacks, melee’ing to avoid ranged attacks, blinds, cripple, CC… are all exploits, because they make fights easier?

Are you starting to see how flawed your argument is?

No, I’m stating that using flawed design of a in-game feature to simplify fights beyond anywhere near the intended difficulty is exploiting. Is that so hard to understand for you?

And NO, I’m not talking about using skills in the way those are meant to be used (aka CC, KDs etc….)
I’m talking about game features, engine mechanics etc….

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Well, I haven’t seen anyone telling that LoSing should be removed. But if it has to be in-game, it should be working correctly, that’s all…. LoSing mobs to gain an advantage and to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic, it’s just another glitched feature, which players consider a “tactic”. But that doesn’t make it one. The fact Anet doesn’t care is just another story….
Origin did, and it was better gaming experience for everyone, trust me

So… If I understand you correctly, you’re effectively telling me that using game mechanics to make fights easier is a glitched feature and thus exploiting? So, that means, anything you do to make fights easier is exploiting. Which would mean that using protection, reflects, condition removal, ranging to avoid melee attacks, melee’ing to avoid ranged attacks, blinds, cripple, CC… are all exploits, because they make fights easier?

Are you starting to see how flawed your argument is?

No, I’m stating that using flawed design of a in-game feature to simplify fights beyond anywhere near the intended difficulty is exploiting. Is that so hard to understand for you?

And NO, I’m not talking about using skills in the way those are meant to be used (aka CC, KDs etc….)
I’m talking about game features, engine mechanics etc….

You clearly stated that using LoS to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic and implied it is an exploit.

My reasoning then is that it is the fact that LoS’ing decreases the difficulty of an encounter that makes it an exploit. Hence, anything that decreases the difficulty of an encounter should be considered an exploit, or nothing does (except of course things like afk spots where bosses can’t hit you back).

And here we are again with the use of the word ‘intended’. What was the intended difficulty may I ask? How do you know what was intended? It’s always a risky move to use that word when you have no authority to decide what was intended and what wasn’t.

As for LoS’ing, it is clearly intended, and it still brings a big risk when using it. It’s a risk vs reward tradeoff. The risk is that your party is stacked on top of eachother and one well placed AoE or cleave attack can pretty much down your entire party. The reward is that your entire party is able to use optimal DPS to spike down a foe before it becomes a threat.

You still haven’t showed me how melee’ing to avoid range attacks is an exploit, whereas ranging to avoid melee attacks is not. All you did was move the goal posts and changed the argument to say that LoS’ing is now an exploit.

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Well, I haven’t seen anyone telling that LoSing should be removed. But if it has to be in-game, it should be working correctly, that’s all…. LoSing mobs to gain an advantage and to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic, it’s just another glitched feature, which players consider a “tactic”. But that doesn’t make it one. The fact Anet doesn’t care is just another story….
Origin did, and it was better gaming experience for everyone, trust me

So… If I understand you correctly, you’re effectively telling me that using game mechanics to make fights easier is a glitched feature and thus exploiting? So, that means, anything you do to make fights easier is exploiting. Which would mean that using protection, reflects, condition removal, ranging to avoid melee attacks, melee’ing to avoid ranged attacks, blinds, cripple, CC… are all exploits, because they make fights easier?

Are you starting to see how flawed your argument is?

No, I’m stating that using flawed design of a in-game feature to simplify fights beyond anywhere near the intended difficulty is exploiting. Is that so hard to understand for you?

And NO, I’m not talking about using skills in the way those are meant to be used (aka CC, KDs etc….)
I’m talking about game features, engine mechanics etc….

You clearly stated that using LoS to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic and implied it is an exploit.

My reasoning then is that it is the fact that LoS’ing decreases the difficulty of an encounter that makes it an exploit. Hence, anything that decreases the difficulty of an encounter should be considered an exploit, or nothing does (except of course things like afk spots where bosses can’t hit you back).

And here we are again with the use of the word ‘intended’. What was the intended difficulty may I ask? How do you know what was intended? It’s always a risky move to use that word when you have no authority to decide what was intended and what wasn’t.

As for LoS’ing, it is clearly intended, and it still brings a big risk when using it. It’s a risk vs reward tradeoff. The risk is that your party is stacked on top of eachother and one well placed AoE or cleave attack can pretty much down your entire party. The reward is that your entire party is able to use optimal DPS to spike down a foe before it becomes a threat.

You still haven’t showed me how melee’ing to avoid range attacks is an exploit, whereas ranging to avoid melee attacks is not. All you did was move the goal posts and changed the argument to say that LoS’ing is now an exploit.

I can do the same you did, look:

So according to what you’re saying, this is totally valid tactic too, right?

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

STRanger.5120:

Well, I haven’t seen anyone telling that LoSing should be removed. But if it has to be in-game, it should be working correctly, that’s all…. LoSing mobs to gain an advantage and to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic, it’s just another glitched feature, which players consider a “tactic”. But that doesn’t make it one. The fact Anet doesn’t care is just another story….
Origin did, and it was better gaming experience for everyone, trust me

So… If I understand you correctly, you’re effectively telling me that using game mechanics to make fights easier is a glitched feature and thus exploiting? So, that means, anything you do to make fights easier is exploiting. Which would mean that using protection, reflects, condition removal, ranging to avoid melee attacks, melee’ing to avoid ranged attacks, blinds, cripple, CC… are all exploits, because they make fights easier?

Are you starting to see how flawed your argument is?

No, I’m stating that using flawed design of a in-game feature to simplify fights beyond anywhere near the intended difficulty is exploiting. Is that so hard to understand for you?

And NO, I’m not talking about using skills in the way those are meant to be used (aka CC, KDs etc….)
I’m talking about game features, engine mechanics etc….

You clearly stated that using LoS to decrease the difficulty of an encounter is not a valid tactic and implied it is an exploit.

My reasoning then is that it is the fact that LoS’ing decreases the difficulty of an encounter that makes it an exploit. Hence, anything that decreases the difficulty of an encounter should be considered an exploit, or nothing does (except of course things like afk spots where bosses can’t hit you back).

And here we are again with the use of the word ‘intended’. What was the intended difficulty may I ask? How do you know what was intended? It’s always a risky move to use that word when you have no authority to decide what was intended and what wasn’t.

As for LoS’ing, it is clearly intended, and it still brings a big risk when using it. It’s a risk vs reward tradeoff. The risk is that your party is stacked on top of eachother and one well placed AoE or cleave attack can pretty much down your entire party. The reward is that your entire party is able to use optimal DPS to spike down a foe before it becomes a threat.

You still haven’t showed me how melee’ing to avoid range attacks is an exploit, whereas ranging to avoid melee attacks is not. All you did was move the goal posts and changed the argument to say that LoS’ing is now an exploit.

I can do the same you did, look:

So according to what you’re saying, this is totally valid tactic too, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Mtf7V-N_I

Actually, no, if you read my post, you’d see I said that I do consider afk spots where the boss can’t hit you an exploit.

But I think they’re silly exploits, because a lot of the times, killing the boss legit would be faster and easier. Melee’ing that boss down takes like 10-15 seconds. In fact, we usually kill it so fast the adds didn’t even get the chance to reach us yet.

Bright.9160:

As for LoS’ing, it is clearly intended, and it still brings a big risk when using it. It’s a risk vs reward tradeoff. The risk is that your party is stacked on top of eachother and one well placed AoE or cleave attack can pretty much down your entire party. The reward is that your entire party is able to use optimal DPS to spike down a foe before it becomes a threat.

Where’s the risk in that Spider Queen encounter exactly? To me, it’s just the way to oversimplify the whole fight, nothing more. Not far from that video I posted (sorry, but Spider Queens melee attacks are barely a threat for decent group).

So it makes this encounter more like Faceroll —→ reward fight, and that’s the reason why I consider that an exploit. Got it?

I read the whole debate and Bright is making a whole lot more logical sense than STRanger.

Still waiting for the answer to this:

“You still haven’t showed me how melee’ing to avoid range attacks is an exploit, whereas ranging to avoid melee attacks is not.”

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

STRanger.5120:

Bright.9160:

As for LoS’ing, it is clearly intended, and it still brings a big risk when using it. It’s a risk vs reward tradeoff. The risk is that your party is stacked on top of eachother and one well placed AoE or cleave attack can pretty much down your entire party. The reward is that your entire party is able to use optimal DPS to spike down a foe before it becomes a threat.

Where’s the risk in that Spider Queen encounter exactly? To me, it’s just the way to oversimplify the whole fight, nothing more. Not far from that video I posted (sorry, but Spider Queens melee attacks are barely a threat for decent group).

So it makes this encounter more like Faceroll —-> reward fight, and that’s the reason why I consider that an exploit. Got it?

When we’re doing it, it’s not really a risk, because we usually burn it down before it can get more than 2 or 3 hits in, and those are usually negated by our Guardian’s Aegis. In PUG groups however, this fight is not as easy as it looks, because their DPS is usually a lot lower, and they have the risk of taking too many hits and get downed.

Now, let’s forget about this Spider Queen fight all together for a second. You still haven’t answered my question, although I’ve asked it 3 times now.

In general, no fight in particular, do you feel that if you stack in melee so that a boss does not use a hard-hitting ranged attack an exploit?

If the answer to that question is yes please elaborate why you feel that standing at range so that a boss does not use a hard hitting melee attack (example numero uno: Lupicus) is not an exploit by the same merits (using positioning to avoid getting hit by a certain attack).

If the answer to that question is no please explain to me why melee’ing the AC boss is an exploit then.

This is an action combat game. It was designed to use your positioning to your advantage, many traits are even based on it. This also means that using your positioning to make certain bosses not use certain ranged attacks is a valid combat strategy, just as ranging to avoid melee attacks is.

So far, you have not provided me with a logical argument to your point, but all you’ve done is move the goal posts and change the subject to LoS’ing. I gave you the consequences of not having LoS’ing in game (GW1) and I like to think that the game was designed with LoS’ing in mind (balling up foes to make cleave damage stronger) as a valid tactic. If you believe it was not, please give me some reasoning as well, other than “it makes this one fight in this one dungeon easier” (I know that was a straw man, but you always come back to the AC spider queen, whereas there are plenty of other spots where LoS’ing is used).

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Because I have more fun running with the zerg in FG than I do trying to memorize the unfun dungeons. Because the game is about fun, not making good money.

rizzo.1079:

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Because I have more fun running with the zerg in FG than I do trying to memorize the unfun dungeons. Because the game is about fun, not making good money.

They didn’t nerf the fun, they only nerfed the good money.

Alukah.2063:

rizzo.1079:

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Because I have more fun running with the zerg in FG than I do trying to memorize the unfun dungeons. Because the game is about fun, not making good money.

They didn’t nerf the fun, they only nerfed the good money.

Right and I haven’t complained about the nerf at all in this thread. I just hate it when people imply that somehow people who like to run dungeons are better than people who like to run with the zerg.

rizzo.1079:

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Because I have more fun running with the zerg in FG than I do trying to memorize the unfun dungeons. Because the game is about fun, not making good money.

You have an odd idea of fun.

Adam.4103:

rizzo.1079:

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Because I have more fun running with the zerg in FG than I do trying to memorize the unfun dungeons. Because the game is about fun, not making good money.

You have an odd idea of fun.

That’s what I think about people who have fun running dungeons.

Qaelyn.7612:

Grinding is self-imposed. That’s true in all MMOs and especially true in this one, from what I’ve been able to tell so far. I was actually shocked at how small the difference is in stats between super-expensive and very affordable items.

This, a thousand times.

Anyone can do totally fine wearing full exotics, and getting those is extremely easy and have multiple different ways.

Now, if you wanna have legendaries, multiple ascended weapons, exclusive skins, etc, you are making your game a grindy one, so either enjoy your self-imposed grinding and stop complaining or stop telling yourself that you NEED all that stuff, and have fun doing something else.

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Why is champ farming mindless but speed running dungeons not? Nothing takes EFFORT or THOUGHT when you’ve done it so many times you know everything to expect.

I don’t do dungeons for many reasons:
1) I can’t usually be on TS
2) I live in a RL world where interruptions happen a lot and I don’t want to have to ditch my party in the middle of a dungeon ‘cuz my mom called – nor do I want to not answer my mom’s call because I HAVE to finish the dungeon
3) I tried a few PUGs and had terrible experiences
4) I CAN LEAVE THE TRAIN ANY TIME I WANT.
5) See #4 above.

Not everyone likes dungeons. As I mentioned before, I like the FGS train because I can sit down with my laptop on a Saturday morning, have my coffee, make some gold and still talk to my husband or stop and take the dog for a walk. I do not find the same level of relaxation with dungeons. I should be able to play in a way that I enjoy and still make some decent coin. If you don’t like the way I play, I don’t care. Don’t try to dictate how the game SHOULD be played or how anyone should be rewarded just because YOU don’t play that way.

rizzo.1079:

Adam.4103:

Charak.9761:

So instead of buffing other methods of gold acquisition, they nerfed one of the viable options.

Great, back to TP flipping cause Anet doesn’t understand how proper rewards should be rewarded.

Why should mindless farming in a zerg reward people? If you want good money do dungeons.

Because I have more fun running with the zerg in FG than I do trying to memorize the unfun dungeons. Because the game is about fun, not making good money.

How is running with a zerg fun? Im really curious

Upham.6137:

Now, if you wanna have legendaries, multiple ascended weapons, exclusive skins, etc, you are making your game a grindy one, so either enjoy your self-imposed grinding and stop complaining or stop telling yourself that you NEED all that stuff, and have fun doing something else.

Quoted for truth, bolded for the stupid.