Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Lifestealer.4910:

Aenesthesia.1697:

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He does not say he love raids (so those other games would possibly also not what I preferred) but he says this is even worse. Making that statement by saying he would rather do raids, something he also dislikes. That’s how I read it.

However, what he hits here is the exact issue and your comment is not really helpful. Suggesting he should leave.. If they all leave (and they might have) it’s a problem for the game don’t you think.

So instead of suggesting that you better find out what he dislikes. What he expected when Anet promised no grind. He is at no point saying the current grind should be replaced by raid rewarding everything because that’s the way to do it. Then I would sort of understand your comment.

I’ve questioned your logic from time to time but this logic is the worst yet.

First of all, if I opened a vegetarian restaurant, and someone didn’t like that, they probably shouldn’t be eating here.

This game, at this point, is relatively clearly defined. That is, ascended gear was introduced more than two years ago. The grind for it is what it was two years ago, except in some ways it’s less because so many of us have a boatload of ascended materials now. At least for weapons it’s not much of a grind anymore. I have everything.

The point is, Anet isn’t going to take this vegetarian restaurant and make it a steakhouse. Changing the game to make certain people like it, might be others hate it. I don’t see why people don’t understand that.

I took his post at face value. He likes stuff that’s in other games. He should go play them. This is a normal logical suggestion. I don’t like opera so I don’t watch opera. I don’t go into operas and try to get them to be rock concerts.

Well that logic already resulted in some predictions that turned out to be true.

Also the logic was not about him having to stay or not but you telling him to leave instead of wanting to use his feedback to maybe find out why other people leave.

“First of all, if I opened a vegetarian restaurant, and someone didn’t like that, they probably shouldn’t be eating here.”
Yeah but what if somebody gets there, asks for the meal of the day and get fish because fish is not meat and so vegetarian foot. In this case the restaurant isn’t even factually wrong but is it strange that the customer complains about that? Should the restaurant not wonder if that complain this customer gives them, but still keeps coming back for the other dishes, might be the reason the restaurant gets less and less customers. Should he not use that information to try to make their product better, retain and get back some customers?

My logic says: ‘yeah listen to it, and if it’s indeed so that this is the reason you are losing customers, do something with it’.

You logic says: ‘Tell him it’s vegetarian and if he complains about that he better go eat somewhere else. We have customers who are fine with it, this clearly is your restaurant’.

Funny, that makes me wonder about your logic and also means I’m not surprise you find my logic strange. They are not really compatible with it. But that’s not really new right, we have debated with each other before.

It’s not like anybody is asking the restaurant to become a steakhouse.
Really all that is happening is that somebody is pointing out that many customers who go to a vegetarian restaurant don’t expect fish, and might be put off by it.. Especially not as meal of the day.

Back to this game. They released a horizontal progression game all about cosmetics, you can decide how to play the game and there is no grind. People get here and like some elements of the game but also notice that this horizontal progression for cosmetics (what they liked to much) is very grindy, and that grindy way is basically the only option to go for it. Or other people who see ascended gear and don’t like that vertical progression. So they complain about it. Meanwhile Anet is losing players. Your answer is basically is ‘this game is not for you, leave’. Yeah with all my strange logic I disagree with your reaction.

“This game, at this point, is relatively clearly defined.” You missed a very important part. There is an expansion on the way (where again they promised no grind), that is also what triggered this thread. The perfect time to get back the customers who did leave and this time try to hold them.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Gamer title track, Lucky/Wisdom/Treasure Hunter title tracks, pursuit of a full Monument of Valor or Resilience, and for the oldschool – Obsidian Armor.

Lucky/unlucky titles can be obtained literally by afking in the lottery rings during special events. HoM is just a random add-on for GW2 purposes, and as such completely irrelevant to GW. Obsi armor can be obtained at a steady pace (talking months here, not years)through various means, and ecto drop rate wasn’t a 0.0000…1% chance, so a normal duo farm nets a few each time, while a full party clearing the zone likely got quite a few more in total. And to repeat myself, there was no time gating, so if you got a lucky drop from w/e and sold it for a nice buck, you could obtain it even faster. And once more, the drop rates aren’t nearly as abysmal as they are on GW2. Oh and did I mention there was no wasteful crafting to further bog you down?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If you want to claim no statistical advantage out of those, Lucky/Treasure Hunter affects a considerable amount when it comes to the lockpicking. And Wisdom was very useful for retaining items after salvaging out upgrades.

As long as I hit the next guy/mob as hard as the GWAMM guy next to me and have the same chance of loot as him, I don’t mind it at all. Also, your point on wisdom title is void now that players can use the perfect salvaging kit. Before it, you simply salvaged the inscription you wanted and hoped you’d retain the item, or simply replace upgrades with others, if item skin was what you were after…

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s in the same galaxy, at least.

It honestly is not.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

This usually resulted in people making those builds, then posting them, and others carbon-copying them. And it was mind-numbingly boring, running trapper-Ranger on the tengu for Feathers. Especially since it wasn’t all that difficult to stay alive, come to think of it.

You can always try places that are more difficult to stay alive, if doing the same thing over felt boring to you. I’m sure there are plenty of places more rewarding than tengu-inhabited zones.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Seven years and five Ectoplasm drops. And one Shard drop. I never saw any of the high-ticket skins except in Req 13 where nobody wanted them, and even then it was a Gothic Sword. Low on the list.

Hyperbole much? I had around 7 shard drops in duo FoW just a few weeks ago with a friend. After that run I had a 5 drop run+ gold items. I do hope you’re not passing your judgement off a single or a couple of runs where you got the short end of the loot stick.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Honestly, GW was where I learned to stop wanting to do things for that chance at sweet reward loot and more for the heck of it. Especially the four hour Urgoz run, which was the most ill-fated fun I had in a game since the failed Sleeper’s Tomb raid I sat in on.

Funny, my experience seems to be almost the polar opposite of yours, which is why I tend to hold other mmos to such high standards and frown upon gear threadmills, gear-critical pvp, rigid class roles and lack of concepts such as body blocking, preprotting, smiting, active interrupting, linebacking, etc.

You know, you’re right. You could AFK during those events to progress on the lucky/unlucky tracks. Of course, in order to make progress on those events you had to buy tickets which cost gold and then you had to farm the gold to have enough tickets to stand there. That’s the part you conveniently forget about.

Here’s the page from the Guild Wars 1 wiki with the amount of gold/time you’d need to do that:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lucky

So you’d only need about 2.5 million gold and oh about a bit over 2000 hours. Yeah that’s not grindy at all. /s

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

Then there are the double lucky/unlucky title point weeks, and the points you obtain from retaining lockpicks, retaining items when salvaging, from special festivity items, and many many others. Honestly, double weeks have sped up those title grinds a great deal.

Lastly, what’s the point in complaining over something as unimpactful as titles? You quote my entire post, yet only respond to the most irrelevant part of it. At least edit out the parts you aren’t addressing to add more clarity and readability to your posts.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

Then there are the double lucky/unlucky title point weeks, and the points you obtain from retaining lockpicks, retaining items when salvaging, from special festivity items, and many many others. Honestly, double weeks have sped up those title grinds a great deal.

Lastly, what’s the point in complaining over something as unimpactful as titles? You quote my entire post, yet only respond to the most irrelevant part of it. At least edit out the parts you aren’t addressing to add more clarity and readability to your posts.

It’s not just titles. The lucky track affects your chances of retaining lockpicks which costs money. As for that chart on the page, yes you need that much gold. That factors in the wins and losses. I know because that’s how I leveled my Lucky/Unlucky track and I farmed lots and lots of gold to buy tickets each and every time that the event came up.

And even then I only maxed unlucky and not lucky. I’m not sure if your memory is impaired, or you’re looking through rose colored glasses, but one of us linked an actual wiki page and one of us is saying I’m spreading misinformation.

I’m pretty sure the wiki page is more accurate than your memory. It matches my memory pretty well.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

Then there are the double lucky/unlucky title point weeks, and the points you obtain from retaining lockpicks, retaining items when salvaging, from special festivity items, and many many others. Honestly, double weeks have sped up those title grinds a great deal.

Lastly, what’s the point in complaining over something as unimpactful as titles? You quote my entire post, yet only respond to the most irrelevant part of it. At least edit out the parts you aren’t addressing to add more clarity and readability to your posts.

More to the point: What is the point? Why are we comparing GW1’s grind to 2’s?

Smith.1826:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

Then there are the double lucky/unlucky title point weeks, and the points you obtain from retaining lockpicks, retaining items when salvaging, from special festivity items, and many many others. Honestly, double weeks have sped up those title grinds a great deal.

Lastly, what’s the point in complaining over something as unimpactful as titles? You quote my entire post, yet only respond to the most irrelevant part of it. At least edit out the parts you aren’t addressing to add more clarity and readability to your posts.

More to the point: What is the point? Why are we comparing GW1’s grind to 2’s?

The reason I am is because so many Guild Wars 1 players talk about how this game is more grindy than that game, when in fact it’s differently grindy.

I based a lot of my expectations of this game on the game I played. And a lot of those expectations have come to pass.

A lot of people who are attacking this game as being grindy are also trying to say Guild Wars 1 wasn’t and the company has changed.

It’s just not as true as some would have you believe.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Lucky/unlucky titles can be obtained literally by afking in the lottery rings during special events.

True, you can earn points doing that. Do you know how long I’d have to AFK and how much I’d need to spend to keep it running while I AFK’d? I ran the numbers once – it was pretty sad.

HoM is just a random add-on for GW2 purposes, and as such completely irrelevant to GW.

Yet it was still there, so it counts.

Obsi armor can be obtained at a steady pace (talking months here, not years)through various means, and ecto drop rate wasn’t a 0.0000…1% chance, so a normal duo farm nets a few each time, while a full party clearing the zone likely got quite a few more in total. And to repeat myself, there was no time gating, so if you got a lucky drop from w/e and sold it for a nice buck, you could obtain it even faster. And once more, the drop rates aren’t nearly as abysmal as they are on GW2. Oh and did I mention there was no wasteful crafting to further bog you down?

You’re going to need to explain how 75k per prestige armor set wasn’t something which bogged you down. Or the need for Jadite/Amber.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s in the same galaxy, at least.

It honestly is not.

No, no it is. You’re just not admitting it.

You can always try places that are more difficult to stay alive, if doing the same thing over felt boring to you. I’m sure there are plenty of places more rewarding than tengu-inhabited zones.

Not when Feathers were so incredibly lucrative to flip due to how Consets were so popular (Essence of Celerity, especially). And why would I risk places where it was more likely I’d die when I could make money just as well . . . if not better . . . doing this rather than trying for the lucky drop?

Hyperbole much? I had around 7 shard drops in duo FoW just a few weeks ago with a friend. After that run I had a 5 drop run+ gold items. I do hope you’re not passing your judgement off a single or a couple of runs where you got the short end of the loot stick.

Hyperbole? No. I literally had an UW run where every drop was a blue or purple Cane. We all had a good laugh about it. No trophies at all, just Canes. Any time I opened an end chest on an EOTN dungeon, I usually called “Diamond or Onyx” before opening and . . . yup.

Not hyperbole. I lived it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Honestly, GW was where I learned to stop wanting to do things for that chance at sweet reward loot and more for the heck of it. Especially the four hour Urgoz run, which was the most ill-fated fun I had in a game since the failed Sleeper’s Tomb raid I sat in on.

Funny, my experience seems to be almost the polar opposite of yours, which is why I tend to hold other mmos to such high standards and frown upon gear threadmills, gear-critical pvp, rigid class roles and lack of concepts such as body blocking, preprotting, smiting, active interrupting, linebacking, etc.

I don’t care about PvP, and every time I try another MMO they wind up boring me to tears with the grind about halfway through. Plus, they generally require more out of my PC specs than I’m willing to spend upgrading to . . .

I miss the days of Meridian 59 and Ultima Online sometimes. Then I recall the non-consensual PvP . . .

KarlaGrey.5903:

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

I had to refill tickets roughly every hour and a half, 500 a pop and sticking to the center. 100 wouldn’t last me half an hour sometimes.

That was some serious plat.

The real problem here is that somehow many forum users have been convinced that the word grind means something other than it actually does. Somehow a large portion of the forum (and maybe gaming/MMO) community have come to believe that having to play the game for any amount of time is a grind. I have no idea how this mentality spread but its just plain silly.

If you want to understand the real meaning of grind go play just about any free to play korean MMO. After about 12-15 hours of playing your quests will no longer get you to the next level and you will be forced to kill mobs (likely there is only 1 type of mob of your level) to get enough experience to make it to the next level. After about 60 hours of play time you will get to the point that you must kill hundreds of the same mob just to level which likely will only change a few of your stat points so that you can now farm the next higher level mobs.

We really need to find a way to change the perception of the word grind. Just because you have to play the game to unlock something doesn’t make it a grind. Even if there is a clear path of least resistance that most people follow (such as dungeon/event gold farming in GW2) doesn’t mean the game has a grind. Choosing to grind the path of least resistance to get something does not make the game a grind.

gaspara.4079:

The real problem here is that somehow many forum users have been convinced that the word grind means something other than it actually does. Somehow a large portion of the forum (and maybe gaming/MMO) community have come to believe that having to play the game for any amount of time is a grind. I have no idea how this mentality spread but its just plain silly.

If you want to understand the real meaning of grind go play just about any free to play korean MMO. After about 12-15 hours of playing your quests will no longer get you to the next level and you will be forced to kill mobs (likely there is only 1 type of mob of your level) to get enough experience to make it to the next level. After about 60 hours of play time you will get to the point that you must kill hundreds of the same mob just to level which likely will only change a few of your stat points so that you can now farm the next higher level mobs.

We really need to find a way to change the perception of the word grind. Just because you have to play the game to unlock something doesn’t make it a grind. Even if there is a clear path of least resistance that most people follow (such as dungeon/event gold farming in GW2) doesn’t mean the game has a grind. Choosing to grind the path of least resistance to get something does not make the game a grind.

This is how I think of/remember grinding. Farming was always something different to me.

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

Then there are the double lucky/unlucky title point weeks, and the points you obtain from retaining lockpicks, retaining items when salvaging, from special festivity items, and many many others. Honestly, double weeks have sped up those title grinds a great deal.

Lastly, what’s the point in complaining over something as unimpactful as titles? You quote my entire post, yet only respond to the most irrelevant part of it. At least edit out the parts you aren’t addressing to add more clarity and readability to your posts.

More to the point: What is the point? Why are we comparing GW1’s grind to 2’s?

The reason I am is because so many Guild Wars 1 players talk about how this game is more grindy than that game, when in fact it’s differently grindy.

GW1 was certainly grindy – perhaps moreso – but it had a very different reason for it to exist than how it does in GW2, and for me that’s the more pressing concern.

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Smith.1826:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Now you’re just spreading false information. All you had to do was buy a starting amount of, let’s say 100 tickets, which are extremely cheap to come by btw, and let the automated process do its thing.
It was extremely unlikely that the amount of tickets would hit 0 because the wins normally offset losses, depending on what ring you chose to sit in. if you’re after the unlucky title, you’d likely have to spend more, but granted you started with the lucky title first (for which, sitting in middle ring was usually the best) you’d have plenty of tickets to tackle the unlucky title. And again, much like its counterpart, the points can be obtained through many different activities and items.

Then there are the double lucky/unlucky title point weeks, and the points you obtain from retaining lockpicks, retaining items when salvaging, from special festivity items, and many many others. Honestly, double weeks have sped up those title grinds a great deal.

Lastly, what’s the point in complaining over something as unimpactful as titles? You quote my entire post, yet only respond to the most irrelevant part of it. At least edit out the parts you aren’t addressing to add more clarity and readability to your posts.

More to the point: What is the point? Why are we comparing GW1’s grind to 2’s?

The reason I am is because so many Guild Wars 1 players talk about how this game is more grindy than that game, when in fact it’s differently grindy.

GW1 was certainly grindy – perhaps moreso – but it had a very different reason for it to exist than how it does in GW2, and for me that’s the more pressing concern.

Well, I’m hoping the grind in HOT is more like the GW 1 grinding than the GW 2 grinding so far.

And I’m very glad Anet said the level cap won’t be raised and that we won’t get another tier of gear.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Well as I said before, Ascended is only 5% better than exotic so it’s not mandatory. You can easily ignore it. Besides you can get partial ascended gear without grinding. Exotic armor/weapons and ascended trinkets is what most of my characters have. Ascended trinkets are kitten easy to get.

Please, stop spreading facts proved as false. Using a mix between celestial, cleric and zerker gear in ascended quality instead of using the same gear in exotic quality provides a power increase ~12%, a critical chance increase ~28%, a ~4.5% critical damage increase, a ~28% of healing power increase and provides a bit better HP and armor. Just do the maths:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQJARSlsApaolDxbI8DNR8QVVAgdS8fV61/QQkDA-TliFABfs/AUKHkUdlBVJoKlgGpkDgnAgl6CcUFiEuEABAQAu5Nzm3MwQH6QH6QHa38m38m/8mlCIilRA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQJARSlsApaolDxbI8DNR8QVVAgdS8fV61/QQkDA-TViFABmpuCNKZ8R5wH7PAgSQjUC9iKEmoSQl6CIFQELjA-w

This is just an example, differences can be enhanced in pure zerk or pure condi damage builds. That doesn’t mind that exotic can’t do the work (they can), but in some areas (WvW roaming) the differences are BIG.

Also, the easiest ascended pieces to get (and I mean getting the ones you want, not the random unsalvageable junk from fractals) are trinkets, which require at least ~160 laurels (which means that you need more than three months to get just five pieces). The other pieces (armor, weapons, back piece) requiere several hundreds of gold coins in material cost, which is also steadly on rising since their introduction.

Being less grindy than other games doesn’t magically make GW2 a “non-grindy game”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hyperbole? No. I literally had an UW run where every drop was a blue or purple Cane. We all had a good laugh about it. No trophies at all, just Canes. Any time I opened an end chest on an EOTN dungeon, I usually called “Diamond or Onyx” before opening and . . . yup.

Not hyperbole. I lived it.

Your not alone, I’ve clocked about 8600 hours playing Guild Wars (1) and got pretty much the above, I gave up trying after awhile and just farmed trash because at least I could depend on that!

Getting 1 ecto was such a momentous occasion I hit the screenshot button 3 times! I’d post it but my X in a volatile rage deleted all my screenshots, along with my heart as an extra added bonus trash drop. (3 years ago, still suffering)

aerial.7021:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hyperbole? No. I literally had an UW run where every drop was a blue or purple Cane. We all had a good laugh about it. No trophies at all, just Canes. Any time I opened an end chest on an EOTN dungeon, I usually called “Diamond or Onyx” before opening and . . . yup.

Not hyperbole. I lived it.

Your not alone, I’ve clocked about 8600 hours playing Guild Wars (1) and got pretty much the above, I gave up trying after awhile and just farmed trash because at least I could depend on that!

Getting 1 ecto was such a momentous occasion I hit the screenshot button 3 times! I’d post it but my X in a volatile rage deleted all my screenshots, along with my heart as an extra added bonus trash drop. (3 years ago, still suffering)

It’s true. It got to the point where even getting yellows and greens meant nothing. If you weren’t going for wisdom title track you’d sell your IDed yellows, but really, it didn’t have the epic feel.

I mean it was cool when you got a black or white dye or a lock pick. That happens a lot more down than it did back then.

Serophous.9085:

Bernie.8674:

Serophous.9085:

GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.

But there were also many title tracks that were not so grindy. Legendary Vanquisher, for example. Also, I got full sets of BiS end game gear by simply playing through story lines. We didn’t hit level 20 only to discover that we were going to be collecting silk for the next year or so before being able to craft our BiS gear. Plus, there were tricks to reducing your grind in GW1. Soloing high end mobs was feasible with certain builds, and three-manning eight-man content was often effective as well.

Because some elements of not so grindy doesn’t mean there isn’t grind. Its still grind. There are tricks to reducing the grind in gw2 as well. But its still grind.

there is a difference between optional grind and progression grind, GW1 has pretty much no progression grind but plenty of optional grind, GW2 is the exact opposite.

serenke.4806:

Also, following the same “no grind” policy, you can get ascended gear from any part of the game PvP, WvW and PvE without ever crafting anything.

Hahahahahahaha … (pause for breath)

Yeah, how’s that working out for people? Since weapons/armor have been added, I’ve gotten 1 weapon drop, 0 armor drops. I’ve also gotten 1 ring drop (yeah, not a fan of FotM). Oddly enough, the ring dropped in WvW on the same day I got the Teq’s Horde.

The stats? Condition damage and 2 others, on both. Not likely to use either.

Recently, someone posted a thread. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-just-opened-13985-bags/page/3#post4758499

11,800 Champion’s Bags. 1 Ascended drop. Drop rate (with a substantial sample size, larger than the polls use to predict votes) of 0.00008475.

Not grind? I guess not, because you can get champ bags all over the place. A realistic alternative to crafting. Not that either.

I’d recommend dropping that argument. Drawing attention to it only shames you and the developer.

KarlaGrey.5903:

If something is not needed, if might as well not be there to start with. Ascended doesn’t add anything to the game, and it would be a win-win situation if exotics would be bumped up to ascended level in terms of stats.
If anyone wants to complain about this, remember, the gear wasn’t needed to start with – outside fractals, that is (the agony resistance should stay intact).

You’ve brought this up a few times, but I don’t understand the thinking behind it.

They aren’t needed to complete content (other than the same fractals at higher levels), but they are needed to give stat oriented players who aren’t interested in cosmetics something relatively meaningless to sink large amounts of time into obtaining.

As I understand it, if you bumped exotics up to ascended stats it wouldn’t really do much to improve the experience of players in exotics, but it would deeply upset a lot of players who invested a lot of time and effort into obtaining a very small stat increase and then had even that very small benefit taken back.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

I have five legendaries now. But I did very little grinding, in my opinion. I waited till I got stuff and sold stuff I got and bought stuff off the trading post that I needed. I mean I did have to run 9 dungeons, you could call that grind, but I didn’t run them in a row. It took me months because I waited till someone in the guild wanted to run it.

That’s what I mean by a state of mind.

2 problems here. There are a lot of cosmetics and it will only become more. Just waiting till you earn it is not really an option.. not only if you want them all but also if you want multiple.

Secondly “I got stuff and sold stuff I got and bought stuff off the trading post that I needed.” Yeah you see, that is what some people consider boring. Where is the hunt for it? It’s get ‘stuff’ sell it and then buy the things you want / need.

This way can still be a way but the hunt way should also be available and it’s not. Where is the ‘play the way you want’ if you want to hunt these items down in the world? It’s not in any viable way there.. so if you want to actively chase those items, grinding (gold) is the only real option. But the that option is one many people dislike. What results in so many people saying this game is a grind.

It seems you are not a GW1 player , so i can be less gentle :P

When you say ’’many’’ and you have made 153 posts in here (from the total of 963 comments) , then by many you mean ‘’ 153 Devatas’’ .

You should avoid general the word ’’many’’ , because you are using it wrong , over and over again but try to make up silly arguments to defend yourself when a player ask you about that

Serophous.9085:

Serophous.9085:

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

Woow like everything you said here made no sense. Are you even still believing what you are saying yourself? Sorry but this comment was just sad.

1: I said “that many if not most people” you make of that ‘most’, even putting the word most in caps. Funny because by saying it the way I do I explicit say it do not have to be most.
This start already destroys your compelete statement.

2: Out of nowhere you just act as if it’s a matter of fact that everybody who plays the game and finds something grindy comes to the forum to post about it.

This nonsense idea would have also send your whole argument down the drain wasen’t it already destroyd before.

And that in a comment of two lines.

btw, didn’t many people stopped playing GW2? Would is be possible that the grind could be one of the reasons? And if so would it be wise to try to hold them when they come back for HoT?

When Vayne got rewards with items , she sold them + in the same time get rewarded with gold = x2 money she got , so she didnt grind gold , but she got rewarded for playing .

When you say : ‘’Where is the ‘play the way you want’ if you want to hunt these items down in the world? It’s not in any viable way there’’ , your argument is invalid
, becuase you can actually hunt them down , BECAUSE THEY DROP FROM THE WORLD , but Vayne choosed the most easy solution (buy them the Black Market) .
You told us that that staying in a area , and w8 for an item to drop over and over again for you into not grind , but a friendly farm .

Try to take the chill pill and let us here the other ppl opinions too (even Vayne agrees with the Grind) . So chilll a bit …. for the good , of us both ….

Vayne.8563:

I have five legendaries now.

Okay, this is the whole source of the problem right here.

Vayne is one of those people who play an ungodly amount of time and who call themselves casual. He’s probably one of those infuriating people who come onto comment sections and say things like “I’m pretty casual, I play bout three hours a night.”

I hate to say it, honestly, but I have to regard his whole perspective as a little bit warped right now. And not worth responding.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

It seems you are not a GW1 player , so i can be less gentle :P

When you say ’’many’’ and you have made 153 posts in here (from the total of 963 comments) , then by many you mean ‘’ 153 Devatas’’ .

You should avoid general the word ’’many’’ , because you are using it wrong , over and over again but try to make up silly arguments to defend yourself when a player ask you about that

Serophous.9085:

Serophous.9085:

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

~

When Vayne got rewards with items , she sold them + in the same time get rewarded with gold = x2 money she got , so she didnt grind gold , but she got rewarded for playing .

When you say : ‘’Where is the ‘play the way you want’ if you want to hunt these items down in the world? It’s not in any viable way there’’ , your argument is invalid
, becuase you can actually hunt them down , BECAUSE THEY DROP FROM THE WORLD , but Vayne choosed the most easy solution (buy them the Black Market) .
You told us that that staying in a area , and w8 for an item to drop over and over again for you into not grind , but a friendly farm .

Try to take the chill pill and let us here the other ppl opinions too (even Vayne agrees with the Grind) . So chilll a bit …. for the good , of us both ….

Yeah because I was clearly the only person in this thread mentioning it. And of course a game about cosmetics clearly does not attract people who not care about hunting down cosmetics. But there is some truth in here, it’s likely that many (there is that word again) of those people have left because there preferred end-game was not here so at this moment there are less of them here (in the game). But what if they come back for HoT. You want to scare them away again.

The size of this group gets extremely underestimated I think. Maybe that is the success of WoW? It’s known for the raid and tear-grind but what was the reward they put in for the 10th anniversary? A mount, a ground mount. So purely cosmetic… oow and a mini, again purely cosmetic. But I guess they did that just to please Devata. They where like, Devata will come have a look again if we do this. That’s probably it.

And then of course Anet, they are monetizing something clearly nobody wants. And those all those people grinding gold to get them clearly would not prefer a less boring more interesting way to get it.

Really, start using some common sense.

I think the word many is very well in place here. It’s not an exact number as I do not know that, I even don’t know the hyperbole ‘all’ no just many. Then it’s up to you to decide what ‘many’ is.

“BECAUSE THEY DROP FROM THE WORLD” Luckily I pick my words very carefully because I know there are people like you. Factually you are right (about some items). You can hunt them down because they drop in the world. Just start killing anything and maybe 1 million kill later it dropped.. You see you can work towards it. Realistically it is of-course complete nonsense.
It’s like telling somebody that he can get rich simply by buying lottery tickets. Sure he can but it’s not the most realistic way to get rich is it?
I can not do some specific content that I know of will be rewarding that reward in a realistic way. That is why I use the words ’in any viable way ’.

Secondly, almost all cash-shop items do not drop in the world! So even your factual but realistically non-existing option of working directly towards them does not exist for those items. And that happen to be the most interesting from a pure cosmetic perspective.

“You told us that that staying in a area , and w8 for an item to drop over and over again for you into not grind , but a friendly farm .” The boring farm? I think I said I could be oke with a few of those when the rest was interesting. Not that that what the way I would want to see it.

“Try to take the chill pill and let us here the other ppl opinions too (even Vayne agrees with the Grind) . So chilll a bit …. for the good , of us both …. ”
I was already planning on not being to active here as I pretty much said what had to been said. But if somebody gives a comment to me (like you do now) I comment back.

Besides, it’s a subject I find interesting so I post here a lot. Having a conversation. Better then post and run imo.

Vayne.8563:

aerial.7021:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Hyperbole? No. I literally had an UW run where every drop was a blue or purple Cane. We all had a good laugh about it. No trophies at all, just Canes. Any time I opened an end chest on an EOTN dungeon, I usually called “Diamond or Onyx” before opening and . . . yup.

Not hyperbole. I lived it.

Your not alone, I’ve clocked about 8600 hours playing Guild Wars (1) and got pretty much the above, I gave up trying after awhile and just farmed trash because at least I could depend on that!

Getting 1 ecto was such a momentous occasion I hit the screenshot button 3 times! I’d post it but my X in a volatile rage deleted all my screenshots, along with my heart as an extra added bonus trash drop. (3 years ago, still suffering)

It’s true. It got to the point where even getting yellows and greens meant nothing. If you weren’t going for wisdom title track you’d sell your IDed yellows, but really, it didn’t have the epic feel.

I mean it was cool when you got a black or white dye or a lock pick. That happens a lot more down than it did back then.

Just to say, there is a big difference in component drops versus final gear drops. Ectos flow pretty well in GW2, much in the same way that greens flowed in the original.

I’m not sure what you guys played but i know i had 1000’s of ectos at a few points in the original. Although i enjoyed solo/duo/full group clears in UW.

Since crafting wasn’t in the original, it’s pretty hard to compare the 2 anyway. Least when talking BiS.

Lheimroo.2947:

Vayne.8563:

I have five legendaries now.

Okay, this is the whole source of the problem right here.

Vayne is one of those people who play an ungodly amount of time and who call themselves casual. He’s probably one of those infuriating people who come onto comment sections and say things like “I’m pretty casual, I play bout three hours a night.”

I hate to say it, honestly, but I have to regard his whole perspective as a little bit warped right now. And not worth responding.

In two and a half years’ time, getting five legendaries at a fairly casual pace isn’t actually hard to believe. Not for someone that’s somewhat organized and capable of setting attainable goals for their play sessions anyway, it wouldn’t be.

I think your out-of-hand dismissal of Vayne is your business, though if that’s your reasoning…well, maybe you’re the one that ought to be dismissed. That’s pretty rotten and pitiful reasoning right there.

And he’s also claimed to have kitted out several characters in full ascended. Which was not introduced entirely 2 years ago, you remember, so he hasn’t had 2 years to do that.

I’m not drawing this conclusion from one datum. Vayne plays a lot.

I reserve the right to filter anything he says about the lack of grind in this game and the accessibility of ascended through that conclusion.

Vayne.8563:

Alvagon.8710:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t get some of you at all. I play this game with no ascended gear and, I don’t know about you, but I do dungeons, WvW, run around Orr. There’s NOTHING gated in this game that makes you grind if you don’t want to. Don’t have a ring or a backpack? So? This is all in your mind. You don’t need this stuff to play the game. … Grind is a state of mind. … You CAN grind, if you want. Or you can just play the game.
…
I just don’t get it. You know, I’ve played games with grind. And what made those games grind was the gating of content. If you wanted to do dungeons in Rift, you HAD TO have a minimum stat. You couldn’t even queue for the dungeon if you didn’t exceed that stat. So to get into the dungeon and experience that content, you had to grind. You had to get the required gear. That situation simply doesn’t exist in Guild Wars 2.

This game isn’t going in the wrong direction. People simply have forgotten what actual grind is.

Its smth that i found in your oldest posts and lol i must admit “Grind is a state of mind.” i can agree too that just plz plz plz tell us what you’re taking maybe a prescription ? So many more ppl can enjoy Gw2 the way you doo…

And remember “This is all in your mind.”

That’s the funny bit. Lots of people, including people in this very thread, DO enjoy Guild Wars 2 the way I do. Isn’t that odd?

I’m patient. I don’t need everything today. Maybe because I’m not a kid anymore. I don’t need to farm for a legendary. I play the game and eventually, I’ll get something I need for it and squirrel it away. Why do I need a legendary today? How does that change the game for me?

I have five legendaries now. But I did very little grinding, in my opinion. I waited till I got stuff and sold stuff I got and bought stuff off the trading post that I needed. I mean I did have to run 9 dungeons, you could call that grind, but I didn’t run them in a row. It took me months because I waited till someone in the guild wanted to run it.

That’s what I mean by a state of mind.

Some of this also comes from your perspective, and a lot of that comes from your prior experiences (or lack thereof) you use as mental references. My introduction to MMOs was the original Everquest. Much of the basic low level gameplay would be considered shockingly harsh today. You didn’t regenerate health or mana out of combat, so you’d have to sit and eat/drink to regen health/magic between mobs. Can you imagine anyone making this forum post today?:

“Mana regeneration should not be an issue with out of combat regen. You just need to “meditate”, aka sit down. So when you get low on mana, get out of combat and then sit. You should regen pretty darn quickly.

I have an 85 wizard. When he runs out of mana, I usually use the bathroom and grab a drink or something. When I come back a couple minutes later, he is 100% again. You just can’t run around killing non-stop without sitting to meditate back up. Standing regeneration is basically nothing."

Low on health after a fight? No problem, just sit still for a few minutes and you’re good to go! Man we put up with a lot back then!!!

When you died you could resurrect…. but you would lose 10% of a level of XP and your stuff would stay on your dead body. So you’d have to fight your way back to where you died and loot your corpse if you wanted to get your stuff back. They eventually changed this to be less harsh, so then you only lost 5% of a level and they allowed another player to drag your corpse to a safer location for you or your guild could help you summon your corpse back to your guild hall.

If you were in danger of dying in a fight you could run away… to the next zone. Mobs would follow you until they were killed or you left the zone and then they would run back to the location where they started chasing you. If they came across any random unsuspecting players along the way back they would aggro to them and try to kill them.

I started playing EQ knowing I would almost certainly never even make it to max level, and despite playing hundreds of hours I never did with even one character. I played WoW to the point of having several 80s, but I could never raid regularly enough to get past the first tiers in any expansion. I may or may not ever get full ascended gear or a legendary here , but I can actually see and play first hand all the content in an MMO for the first time ever.

So I play and enjoy the fun where I find it, try to avoid getting too fixated on virtual carrots that I allow myself to get drug into making the game not fun, and try to remember that even if we are a long way from the ideal theoretical MMO, we’ve come a long way from where we were and and will probably continue to have a long string of improvements in the genre to look forward to in the future.

Lheimroo.2947:

And he’s also claimed to have kitted out several characters in full ascended. Which was not introduced entirely 2 years ago, you remember, so he hasn’t had 2 years to do that.

I’m not drawing this conclusion from one datum. Vayne plays a lot.

I reserve the right to filter anything he says about the lack of grind in this game and the accessibility of ascended through that conclusion.

I haven’t a clue how much he actually plays, myself. You might be right. Irrespective to that derailing aside though, there’s an awful lot of hair-splitting I’ve seen going on about what’s ‘grind’ and what’s ‘farming’ and what’s ‘optional’ and what isn’t and…honestly…I think this game’s grindy as kittens if someone wants lots of good things and not to look like a scrub.

I don’t personally disagree with Vayne’s assessments on various things, though neither do I give a personal hoot that Anet’s definition of ‘grind’ is dang near a No True Scotsman fallacy in my opinion.

There are carrots and there are means to chase them. The ‘need’ for vanity gear here will never be relevant to whether one can complete the next dungeon, but its not so easy to quantify effective needs in a formative culture either.

What are the social ‘needs’ to be a healthy, respectable member of the GW2 community?

Anet’s invested too much in economists and not nearly enough in social engineers to likely be able to meaningfully contemplate a question like that and kitten the perceived needs their systems create with anything resembling my idea of accuracy.

They’re too fond of quantitative metrics, and seem to labor under the (very common) delusion that you can enumerate anything and if you can’kittens less important than what you can.

Their definition of ‘grind’ is a basket of nothing. Sure, it might indicate their benchmark against which their designs are measured, but in functional reality?

There are lots of carrots and most of them are very laborious to acquire. Is the labor optional? Yes…if you want to look mundane in comparison to others and not be able to get much use out of numerous existing systems.

From an economist’s point of view, I’m sure they’re very proud of how their ‘no grind philosophy’ is so grandly grand.

I sure that many of the rest of us aren’t so impressed, because more work has to be done for a good many things here than the ‘grind’ in various other games required to get things there. Call it grind, call it farming, call it whatever one likes – labor is labor.

That’s my take.

Devata.6589:

But there is some truth in here, it’s likely that many (there is that word again) of those people have left because there preferred end-game was not here so at this moment there are less of them here (in the game). But what if they come back for HoT. You want to scare them away again.

I think the word many is very well in place here. It’s not an exact number as I do not know that, I even don’t know the hyperbole ‘all’ no just many. Then it’s up to you to decide what ‘many’ is.

Besides, it’s a subject I find interesting so I post here a lot. Having a conversation. Better then post and run imo.

Look back the last pages (1474 page) and try to read all the threads from 2 years ago …. You can see page after page for ppl that have maxxed out and dont know what to do next and the want raids and more gear progression like other MMOs.

We have the data why ’ ppl didnt like the the game .
You claim that ppl left that they didnt have minis or things to hunt down in the game ?
Why then you say in Vayne :

2 problems here. There are a lot of cosmetics and it will only become more. Just waiting till you earn it is not really an option.. not only if you want them all but also if you want multiple.

?
So we have too many thing ingame and more are coming constantly or this in not true ? Ddidnt you aegue that the Gem store vs ingame items it wrong and they should implant more in the game ?

And again you dont know how MANY IS MANY , when you try to messure the meaning of the word from your friendlist data (‘’i know ppl that left the game , cause is grindy ’’)…

I can stop the post and run , if you wish . But i try to hold back till i know if you are a girl or not , or a gw1 player (i cant touch them) :P

Devata.6589:

Yeah because I was clearly the only person in this thread mentioning it. And of course a game about cosmetics clearly does not attract people who not care about hunting down cosmetics. But there is some truth in here, it’s likely that many (there is that word again) of those people have left because there preferred end-game was not here so at this moment there are less of them here (in the game). But what if they come back for HoT. You want to scare them away again.
…
And then of course Anet, they are monetizing something clearly nobody wants. And those all those people grinding gold to get them clearly would not prefer a less boring more interesting way to get it.

Really, start using some common sense.
…

Secondly, almost all cash-shop items do not drop in the world! So even your factual but realistically non-existing option of working directly towards them does not exist for those items. And that happen to be the most interesting from a pure cosmetic perspective.
…
“You told us that that staying in a area , and w8 for an item to drop over and over again for you into not grind , but a friendly farm .” The boring farm? I think I said I could be oke with a few of those when the rest was interesting. Not that that what the way I would want to see it.

“Try to take the chill pill and let us here the other ppl opinions too (even Vayne agrees with the Grind) . So chilll a bit …. for the good , of us both …. ”
I was already planning on not being to active here as I pretty much said what had to been said. But if somebody gives a comment to me (like you do now) I comment back.

Besides, it’s a subject I find interesting so I post here a lot. Having a conversation. Better then post and run imo.

I won’t try to speak for others, but for me the problems is that I see all points of view represented in the player base.

Using the cash shop minis as an example, it bothers you that they can’t be obtained in game. But there is also a vocal player base that doesn’t care how many minis are added to the cash shop as long as they aren’t obtainable in game. That group doesn’t care as long as there isn’t any confusion between an earned mini and a purchased mini.

For you, it is discouraging that rare world drops can’t be directly pursued and can only be obtained by random luck. For some others, knowing an item is a low rate drop from a specific subset of mobs makes them feel pressured to farm for it and making it worldwide frees them from that pressure and allows them to not get stuck farming. For others, a long grind/farm of very specific mobs for a very rare drop makes it the only worthwhile pursuit in the game since it is all about the rarity of no one else having it that makes it worthwhile.

Ascended gear, real money gold purchases, everything being on the TP, open world bosses, challenging content… all of it is good for some people and bad for others. This is where I personally find it difficult to talk about most or many players, especially when it comes to potential players that might be attracted by a change.

Tradeoffs is the language I find more interesting on these topics. How do we give a little to this group and still throw a bone to that group. How do we make give as many player types as possible the most of what they find rewarding while avoiding the most of what they find discouraging.

That is what I found most appealing about your idea of item versions. A basic with a high drop rate, a mild vanity rarer version, and a high vanity very rare version considers a lot of player types. Low skill/time/dedication players have an obtainable, functional, but low vanity version to pursue. More dedicated players can time sink more to chase for some vanity/cosmetics. And the elite players have a major grind / time sink / elite version to keep them busy or give them that unique peakitten feel they find rewarding.

Any change or proposal will alienate some, but like you I think the ideas are worth discussing as long as we don’t end up arguing one group against another or attacking/defending one group of players.

DavidH.7380:

Some of this also comes from your perspective, and a lot of that comes from your prior experiences (or lack thereof) you use as mental references. My introduction to MMOs was the original Everquest. Much of the basic low level gameplay would be considered shockingly harsh today. You didn’t regenerate health or mana out of combat, so you’d have to sit and eat/drink to regen health/magic between mobs. Can you imagine anyone making this forum post today?:

There’s a reason no MMO does all that stuff that you mentioned anymore: it’s simply not fun for most people. Just like grinding isn’t fun for most people. I know that some players love it and dismiss anyone who says otherwise as “lazy” or “entitled” (not saying that you’re one of those players, but the assertion is frequently made). In my opinion those players have lost perspective of a MMO’s intent. A MMO is not a source of accomplishment; it’s a source of entertainment. Accomplishments happen in the real world, not in an online one. After I’ve spent my day accomplishing things I like to come home and escape to an online world for a couple of hours. I don’t want to spend those hours engaging in simulated commutes or artificial drudgery. I’ve gotten plenty of that already in real life. Demanding that entertainment be entertaining isn’t “lazy” or “entitled.”

naiasonod.9265:

Lheimroo.2947:

And he’s also claimed to have kitted out several characters in full ascended. Which was not introduced entirely 2 years ago, you remember, so he hasn’t had 2 years to do that.

I’m not drawing this conclusion from one datum. Vayne plays a lot.

I reserve the right to filter anything he says about the lack of grind in this game and the accessibility of ascended through that conclusion.

I haven’t a clue how much he actually plays, myself. You might be right. Irrespective to that derailing aside though, there’s an awful lot of hair-splitting I’ve seen going on about what’s ‘grind’ and what’s ‘farming’ and what’s ‘optional’ and what isn’t and…honestly…I think this game’s grindy as kittens if someone wants lots of good things and not to look like a scrub.

I don’t personally disagree with Vayne’s assessments on various things, though neither do I give a personal hoot that Anet’s definition of ‘grind’ is dang near a No True Scotsman fallacy in my opinion.

There are carrots and there are means to chase them. The ‘need’ for vanity gear here will never be relevant to whether one can complete the next dungeon, but its not so easy to quantify effective needs in a formative culture either.

The biggest unquantifiable, IMHO, is the why behind the motivation and feeling of reward.

Why do people play, what do they get from the experience, what do they find fun, what do they find rewarding, and is it a mistake or not to tend to equate fun with rewarding? Do people really want a highly likely success or a challenge with a real possibility of failure I don’t know the answers to those kinds of questions, and I suspect it will be a lot of trial and error before the gaming industry discovers reliable guidelines.

Bernie.8674:

DavidH.7380:

Some of this also comes from your perspective, and a lot of that comes from your prior experiences (or lack thereof) you use as mental references. My introduction to MMOs was the original Everquest. Much of the basic low level gameplay would be considered shockingly harsh today. You didn’t regenerate health or mana out of combat, so you’d have to sit and eat/drink to regen health/magic between mobs. Can you imagine anyone making this forum post today?:

There’s a reason no MMO does all that stuff that you mentioned anymore: it’s simply not fun for most people. Just like grinding isn’t fun for most people. I know that some players love it and dismiss anyone who says otherwise as “lazy” or “entitled” (not saying that you’re one of those players, but the assertion is frequently made). In my opinion those players have lost perspective of a MMO’s intent. A MMO is not a source of accomplishment; it’s a source of entertainment. Accomplishments happen in the real world, not in an online one. After I’ve spent my day accomplishing things I like to come home and escape to an online world for a couple of hours. I don’t want to spend those hours engaging in simulated commutes or artificial drudgery. I’ve gotten plenty of that already in real life. Demanding that entertainment be entertaining isn’t “lazy” or “entitled.”

Agreed, and that is why I am as appreciative as I am of the things GW2 does well, and as forgiving as I am of what isn’t so good. From my perspective, it is better, even though it isn’t perfect, and I suspect some of us geezers who seem overly apologetic for the shortcomings are largely coming from “the glass is half full” and “you can’t expect the company to stake AAA MMO amounts of money on idealized revolutionary change instead of the steady evolutionary changes we have been seeing over time.”

munkiman.3068:

Just to say, there is a big difference in component drops versus final gear drops. Ectos flow pretty well in GW2, much in the same way that greens flowed in the original.

I’m not sure what you guys played but i know i had 1000’s of ectos at a few points in the original. Although i enjoyed solo/duo/full group clears in UW.

Since crafting wasn’t in the original, it’s pretty hard to compare the 2 anyway. Least when talking BiS.

Pretty much this. At one point I had dozens of stacks of ecto in GW1. Never actually needed them for character progression. In the end I gave them away.

I do not deny that one could grind in GW1. There was, however, no grind for best in slot gear. Two and a half years into GW2 and I have less BiS gear now than I had within the first few weeks after launch.

Lheimroo.2947:

And he’s also claimed to have kitted out several characters in full ascended. Which was not introduced entirely 2 years ago, you remember, so he hasn’t had 2 years to do that.

I’m not drawing this conclusion from one datum. Vayne plays a lot.

I reserve the right to filter anything he says about the lack of grind in this game and the accessibility of ascended through that conclusion.

Yes, there’s been a couple of old posts (can’t find it through his swarm of posts) where he stated his hours played which averaged around 13 hours per day. Of course, he’d then claim something like he’s doesn’t play all those time, but that should still put things in perspective of his “casual” play.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

But there is some truth in here, it’s likely that many (there is that word again) of those people have left because there preferred end-game was not here so at this moment there are less of them here (in the game). But what if they come back for HoT. You want to scare them away again.

I think the word many is very well in place here. It’s not an exact number as I do not know that, I even don’t know the hyperbole ‘all’ no just many. Then it’s up to you to decide what ‘many’ is.

Besides, it’s a subject I find interesting so I post here a lot. Having a conversation. Better then post and run imo.

Look back the last pages (1474 page) and try to read all the threads from 2 years ago …. You can see page after page for ppl that have maxxed out and dont know what to do next and the want raids and more gear progression like other MMOs.

We have the data why ’ ppl didnt like the the game .
You claim that ppl left that they didnt have minis or things to hunt down in the game ?
Why then you say in Vayne :

2 problems here. There are a lot of cosmetics and it will only become more. Just waiting till you earn it is not really an option.. not only if you want them all but also if you want multiple.

?
So we have too many thing ingame and more are coming constantly or this in not true ? Ddidnt you aegue that the Gem store vs ingame items it wrong and they should implant more in the game ?

And again you dont know how MANY IS MANY , when you try to messure the meaning of the word from your friendlist data (‘’i know ppl that left the game , cause is grindy ’’)…

I can stop the post and run , if you wish . But i try to hold back till i know if you are a girl or not , or a gw1 player (i cant touch them) :P

Haven’t seen that many post asking for vertical progression to be honest. And I am not so sure you do have that data if you think that was the main reason. Why then did people keep leaving also after the introduction of ascended stuff?

“You claim that ppl left that they didnt have minis or things to hunt down in the game ? ”
Now I see the problem why your comment did not seem to make any sense to me. You are likely not really into that stuff yourself and so don’t understand the difference between it being available and the ability to hunt it down.

The problem I talk about is that for most of the items the only viable way to get them is by grinding gold. You could consider that ‘hunting down items’ but then thats the grind way, not the direct way like really hunting it down. Vayne set ‘but you don’t have to grind and still buy the items from the gold you earn along the way.’ Well he then forgets that the hunt itself is part of the fun / end-game. And the fact that only more items are getting added means that earning stuff along the way just does not do it. That was my point. Hope you understand it now.

“So we have too many thing ingame and more are coming constantly or this in not true ?” No not to many, let them coming. But it does mean the ‘earn the money while you play and then buy’ just isn’t a option. You never earn enough money along the way.

“Ddidnt you aegue that the Gem store vs ingame items it wrong and they should implant more in the game ? ” Yes.

“And again you dont know how MANY IS MANY , when you try to messure the meaning of the word from your friendlist data (‘’i know ppl that left the game , cause is grindy ’’) ” Yeah, this is always an easy argument. You don’t know the numbers. True, so I don’t give an exact number, but talk about many but then you complain about that. What should I then say? I do think it are many. We both don’t have the real numbers.

“I can stop the post and run , if you wish . ” I don’t care. Did I ask you to run?

The ppl (the vocal minority) that came in the forums didnt know what else to do in the game and demanded those aspects i typed you .
That vocal minority at that period of time , really stired away the game in the wrong direction and OTHER PPL HAVE LEFT BECAUSE OF IT .

The same happening in the last 9 days when the majority of the popualtion hate the idea that they have grind the Achentant gear , while some other VOCAL MINORITY wants something entirly different from the rest of the community , even something that can disturb the 2-week updates …

The vocal minority should be quiet for a bit to hear the MAJORITY of the complaint and dont mount up the thread , like they own it

And again dont tell me it hurt the ‘’fun of endgame’’ , When you can go in specific areas of the game and have your ‘’friendly farm’’ and have gold in the same time .
Doing the same istance over and over for a item to drop , for the majority of the ppl is CALLED GRIND

The mount in WoW was offered if you login in the first day of the launch , while haveing access to the rescaled MC + getting the korgi was offered in the 10th universery (i thought you didnt play WoW for a long time)

.(why the kitties in gw2 are so fat ?)

cya tommorow

DavidH.7380:

~

That is what I found most appealing about your idea of item versions. A basic with a high drop rate, a mild vanity rarer version, and a high vanity very rare version considers a lot of player types. Low skill/time/dedication players have an obtainable, functional, but low vanity version to pursue. More dedicated players can time sink more to chase for some vanity/cosmetics. And the elite players have a major grind / time sink / elite version to keep them busy or give them that unique peakitten feel they find rewarding.

Any change or proposal will alienate some, but like you I think the ideas are worth discussing as long as we don’t end up arguing one group against another or attacking/defending one group of players.

Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my vision and my idea of how things are. Where I have real numbers I use them, else I will base my idea’s on what I see, feel, think and makes logical sense. (looks like this disclaimer is necessary)

I do try to think about all groups with my suggestions. That what you noticed (you talk about the example I gave with the hammer for easy, harder, and epic content / dungeon right?) is just one example where I try to appeal to those who like easy and / or median and / or hard content. But with that I could already see the threads ‘I completed on epic mode but now I get punished for it by giving my hammer this ugly glow’ so I already suggest to allow to turn those visual upgrades on and off. To not angry those people, that group.

In my reward system you would still be able to grind gold for many items.. Maybe less as now because it would likely result in more account-bound items but overall it would still allow you to grind gold for most of them. Grinding gold is then (when done right) not the optimal way but it’s a possibility. So not to alienate the people who prefer that.

Then I suggested to also have a few extremely rare ones (extreme low drop-rate from one boss or something like that) this to address those who prefer the extremely rare items. You also mentioned that group. But only a few to not scare away collectors.

Lastly there might be people who are afraid some item they might want to get will be account-bound and behind content like a dungeon they do not like (with my system) so the only way to do that is by grinding gold. (something that also now can be the case (Liadri) but would be a little more likely in ‘my’ reward system).

However then I place this group against the people who’s ‘content’ they might not like is a boring gold grind and in the current model have an item they might like behind that content / grind. Basically people with the same problem, something is locked behind ‘content’ they do not like. And as now most items are locked behind the gold-grind it’s easy to see how that group is much much bigger.

Making my model fit more with the ‘play the way you want’ statement as more people will be able to play the way they want and it becomes lesser that somebody has to do something he dislikes to earn some reward.

Some people here say ‘oow it’s cosmetics so that might be grindy’ but then they only think about them-self, being more into stats. I am not suggesting P2W and having cosmetics being in the game (this being a game about cosmetics) because I know it hurts them.

So who am I then still leaving out.. Those who don’t want to buy expansions and understand no cash-shop focus means more expansions. But then again, they did buy a B2P game and payed the game in the first place. Is it then to hard to ask to buy an expansion once a year?, and they are not even required to buy it. Not to mention that multiple of them likely do spend money on the cash-shop (like people who can’t pay a phone of 600 dollar so buy the same for 36 with a subscription for 2 years) so I do not feel it’s to much to ask from them. But more important, it’s not a game-play reason. It has more to do with there personal financial situation and I am firstly looking at if from a game perspective. What is best for the game itself.

The other group is the group who just want to show of with the best goods and just want to buy everything being cool but not really wanna play. For the lack of a better word a lazy gamer. Problem there is that buying everything gets old pretty fast so I don’t think there are many left of them by now anyway.

So I do try to look at as many people as possible, not just myself.

Not sure why anybody would think so especially when there are also people saying things like ‘just put cosmetics behind grind because that it optional’. Now thats the group who is only thinking about myself. For a cosmetics person stats are just as optional as skins are for the stats guy and cosmetics are just as important as stats are for the other guy.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

The ppl (the vocal minority) that came in the forums didnt know what else to do in the game and demanded those aspects i typed you .
That vocal minority at that period of time , really stired away the game in the wrong direction and OTHER PPL HAVE LEFT BECAUSE OF IT .

The same happening in the last 9 days when the majority of the popualtion hate the idea that they have grind the Achentant gear , while some other VOCAL MINORITY wants something entirly different from the rest of the community , even something that can disturb the 2-week updates …

The vocal minority should be quiet for a bit to hear the MAJORITY of the complaint and dont mount up the thread , like they own it

And again dont tell me it hurt the ‘’fun of endgame’’ , When you can go in specific areas of the game and have your ‘’friendly farm’’ and have gold in the same time .
Doing the same istance over and over for a item to drop , for the majority of the ppl is CALLED GRIND

The mount in WoW was offered if you login in the first day of the launch , while haveing access to the rescaled MC + getting the korgi was offered in the 10th universery (i thought you didnt play WoW for a long time)

.(why the kitties in gw2 are so fat ?)

cya tommorow

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

‘The vocal minority’ statement is just as empty as the ‘you don’t know the real numbers so you can’t say anything about this’ or the ‘this is nor your game, go play another game’ arguments.

The majority of players who even came to GW2 seemed to have already left. How about that? Maybe that ‘vocal minority’ is all that is left of them and there suggestions might be the solution to bring that majority back.

sorudo.9054:

Serophous.9085:

Bernie.8674:

Serophous.9085:

GW1 had plenty of grind with its faction grind and grinding for ectos. Then grinding the same mob over and over again for its rare drop.

But there were also many title tracks that were not so grindy. Legendary Vanquisher, for example. Also, I got full sets of BiS end game gear by simply playing through story lines. We didn’t hit level 20 only to discover that we were going to be collecting silk for the next year or so before being able to craft our BiS gear. Plus, there were tricks to reducing your grind in GW1. Soloing high end mobs was feasible with certain builds, and three-manning eight-man content was often effective as well.

Because some elements of not so grindy doesn’t mean there isn’t grind. Its still grind. There are tricks to reducing the grind in gw2 as well. But its still grind.

there is a difference between optional grind and progression grind, GW1 has pretty much no progression grind but plenty of optional grind, GW2 is the exact opposite.

Well that’s not true. Guild Wars 2’s progressive grind is gear progressive grind. Guild Wars 1’s progressive grind was rep grind for skills as well as grind for better chances to salvage and retain lockpicks on chests. All of that is progressive, even if it’s a different kind of progression.

I feel like I have to have ascended armor less than I felt I had to level save yourselves to max level on my imbagon paragon. What you’re stating is an opinion, not a fact.

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

Lheimroo.2947:

And he’s also claimed to have kitted out several characters in full ascended. Which was not introduced entirely 2 years ago, you remember, so he hasn’t had 2 years to do that.

I’m not drawing this conclusion from one datum. Vayne plays a lot.

I reserve the right to filter anything he says about the lack of grind in this game and the accessibility of ascended through that conclusion.

I only have 3 characters decked out in all ascended. I could have a lot more but I don’t because I don’t feel I need it. I wouldn’t likely have three characters decked out in ascended armor if there hadn’t been a collection for it. It was one of the collections I could get without buying stuff on the marketplace. That’s why I have three characters in ascended armor.

The odds are, I’ll never make a piece of ascended armor again. Because I don’t grind for stats and never liked doing so.

You have the right to filter anything I say anyway, because everyone does that, regardless in much the way I filter everything Karla or Devata says based on their posting history and their pet peeves.

But let me tell you this. I don’t grind because I don’t enjoy grinding and I’m quite happy NOT to get stuff or finish stuff if I don’t want to, no matter how much I play. Take Liadri. I could have beaten Liadri if I spent the time to do it. But as much as I play I don’t find that type of challenge fun, so I never tried. I mean I tried a couple of times to see what I’d need to do and said screw it. This isn’t fun. So I never got the liadri mini and I probably never will.

Do I want it. Sure. But not enough to repeat that content over and over.

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

But it’s not an option to ask them all so we have to use some common sense, open our ears and so on. Then we see ‘grind’ is a much complain you hear and so it might be wise if Anet did try to do something about it.

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

But it’s not an option to ask them all so we have to use some common sense, open our ears and so on. Then we see ‘grind’ is a much complain you hear and so it might be wise if Anet did try to do something about it.

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Suppose Anet listens to you though, and eliminates some of that grind and those people who left left because they didn’t have enough to work for that meant something to them and what they really wanted was more grind.

Maybe every time someone leaves, Anet should add more grind to the game,. because it might be what they wanted.

Bad thought process is bad.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

But it’s not an option to ask them all so we have to use some common sense, open our ears and so on. Then we see ‘grind’ is a much complain you hear and so it might be wise if Anet did try to do something about it.

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Suppose Anet listens to you though, and eliminates some of that grind and those people who left left because they didn’t have enough to work for that meant something to them and what they really wanted was more grind.

Maybe every time someone leaves, Anet should add more grind to the game,. because it might be what they wanted.

Bad thought process is bad.

I am not saying ‘listen to me’, I say, look at what people say on the forums and all I try to provide is some idea’s to think about. Showing at least how I do think about it.

The option to grind does not disappears in my suggestion, it just becomes exactly that.. an option.

And as I do not see a lot of people asking for more grind but I do see many complains about grind you are right.. Bad thought process is bad. and with all we know that would indeed be a bag thought process.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

But it’s not an option to ask them all so we have to use some common sense, open our ears and so on. Then we see ‘grind’ is a much complain you hear and so it might be wise if Anet did try to do something about it.

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Suppose Anet listens to you though, and eliminates some of that grind and those people who left left because they didn’t have enough to work for that meant something to them and what they really wanted was more grind.

Maybe every time someone leaves, Anet should add more grind to the game,. because it might be what they wanted.

Bad thought process is bad.

I am not saying ‘listen to me’, I say, look at what people say on the forums and all I try to provide is some idea’s to think about. Showing at least how I do think about it.

The option to grind does not disappears in my suggestion, it just becomes exactly that.. an option.

And as I do not see a lot of people asking for more grind but I do see many complains about grind you are right.. Bad thought process is bad. and with all we know that would indeed be a bag thought process.

At the time when ascended gear was added to the game, there were a whole lot of posts about people leaving because they had nothing to do. The only way Anet could have added something to do in a timely manner, was to add something time gated that helped people stay in game longer toward that goal. I didn’t like it but I got why they did it. The forums were a zoo. Every day there were posts about people who ran out of stuff to do. Anet made a decision based on forum posts. Yet you dislike their solution.

The solution of providing more and more content wasn’t an option because the content your’e talking about takes too much time to implement if they needed to head off what was quickly becoming a stampede.

But more to the point. we hardly see grind complaints, UNTIL Anet brings up the words no grind. And then we get threads like this.

Before this thread, I think you could count on one hand the number of times a month that anyone said they had a problem with the game being grindy.

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

Yes, yes it would.

I have utter and complete faith it would still exist in some form. We might not be complaining about the same things as far as grind . . .

Vayne.8563:

At the time when ascended gear was added to the game, there were a whole lot of posts about people leaving because they had nothing to do. The only way Anet could have added something to do in a timely manner, was to add something time gated that helped people stay in game longer toward that goal. I didn’t like it but I got why they did it. The forums were a zoo. Every day there were posts about people who ran out of stuff to do. Anet made a decision based on forum posts. Yet you dislike their solution.

The solution of providing more and more content wasn’t an option because the content your’e talking about takes too much time to implement if they needed to head off what was quickly becoming a stampede.

But more to the point. we hardly see grind complaints, UNTIL Anet brings up the words no grind. And then we get threads like this.

Before this thread, I think you could count on one hand the number of times a month that anyone said they had a problem with the game being grindy.

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

^This, this, THIS.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

Yes, yes it would.

I have utter and complete faith it would still exist in some form. We might not be complaining about the same things as far as grind . . .

This thread is specifically about the no grind philosophy which was brought up at the launch. If the word grind hadn’t been mentioned in the launch people would be talking more about HoT and less about this.

Also there are a lot of things that people post in grind threads that aren’t about the grind itself.

Time gating is not grind, if anything it’s anti grind. It’s an alternate way to slow down progress. If something is time gated, you can’t grind it.

RNG – RNG is not grind. It’s a way of slowing down how fast you get something. You can grind the whole world over and over for a precursor, but what’s being complained about there is the random element…not grind.

Not getting good enough drops – This is not grind either, it’s people complaining they somehow have unlucky accounts and they don’t get the stuff other people do.

There are some grind complaints on these forums but they’re generally few and far between or have been for the last year or so anyway.

Vayne.8563:

This thread is specifically about the no grind philosophy which was brought up at the launch. If the word grind hadn’t been mentioned in the launch people would be talking more about HoT and less about this.

You have way more faith in people than I do, friend. This exact conversation might not be happening, but I can put money it’d be close enough to count. The title of the thread wouldn’t be the same, probably another shot at Ascended since that seems to be where everyone wants to pin the grind. There’d be less “they promised” and yet still “they changed direction”.

Honestly, it reminds me I should go back to my old cartridge of Dragon Warrior to remind myself of what grind really feels like getting to level 30.

Devata.6589:

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Was attempting to create balance.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

Yes, yes it would.

I have utter and complete faith it would still exist in some form. We might not be complaining about the same things as far as grind . . .

This thread is specifically about the no grind philosophy which was brought up at the launch. If the word grind hadn’t been mentioned in the launch people would be talking more about HoT and less about this.

Also there are a lot of things that people post in grind threads that aren’t about the grind itself.

Time gating is not grind, if anything it’s anti grind. It’s an alternate way to slow down progress. If something is time gated, you can’t grind it.

RNG – RNG is not grind. It’s a way of slowing down how fast you get something. You can grind the whole world over and over for a precursor, but what’s being complained about there is the random element…not grind.

Not getting good enough drops – This is not grind either, it’s people complaining they somehow have unlucky accounts and they don’t get the stuff other people do.

There are some grind complaints on these forums but they’re generally few and far between or have been for the last year or so anyway.

Time gating can certainly be a grind. Grinding is any repetitive task you need to do a lot of times to achieve some goal. Just because it is time gated does not mean you aren’t doing a repetitive task. The grind is spread out over a much longer period of time. Did I want to log in and do the daily? Heck no! But I needed that laurel and a lot more in order to get an ascended item. So every day I logged on to grind out the daily to get a single laurel towards my goal.

RNG is certainly a part of grinding. If it makes things harder to get that means doing the repetitive task more, thus more grinding. If an item has a 1/10 chance of dropping it’s not going to take nearly as much grinding as a 1/2500.

Poor drops- this is the same as RNG. If you get poor drops then you’re going to be grinding more in order to get whatever it is that you want. Not to mention that GW2’s reward system is terrible since most of the time you get trash loot. This helps reinforce the feeling of grinding since you never get a feeling of accomplishment. This is diablo 3 at release, at least Blizzard learned from their mistake.

In the last year or so the forums have slowed to a crawl as people have left or simply don’t care anymore since the devs ignore us. Grind has always been a big topic in GW2. Do you not remember the dungeon grind at launch that people complained about? Pentinent grind? The fractal skin grind? The ascended mats grind? The precursor grind? Champ grinding? The T6 grind? The Lodestone grind? Silk grinding? Ecto grinding? I mean there is very few aspects of GW2 that haven’t been associated with grinding and then complained about.