"No-grind philosophy"
Guys does it really matter though? Grind is grind.
Grind isn’t an end, grind is a means to an end. it doesn’t matter what that end is. Whether you try to level up, get new gear or get a new rare skin, if you have to do the same repetitive stuff over and over and over again to get what you want (level-up, gear, skin) it is per definition a grind.
When talking about any form of grind within the game in general, no.
How about you read the manifesto blog and watch the video.
How about you read Colin’s quote.
Where do they talk about grind in regards to gear. That’s what we’re talking about. Is it that difficult to understand?
Apparently as difficult as it is for you to understand Colin’s quote which very clearly says otherwise.
I have absolutely no other idea on how to rephrase it so you’ll understand.
Funny, I’m thinking the very same thing with you.
Go back 2 months before his post that updated/clarified what they meant in the manifesto. Where did they mention gear in the blog or or video? That’s what we’re talking about. People have been complaining since launch that Anet lied with the Manifesto in regards to grind when all they did was pull a single phrase out of context. I’m talking about what is explicitly stated within the blog and video. I’m not talking about anything posted in his post 2.5 years later.
Guys does it really matter though? Grind is grind.
Grind isn’t an end, grind is a means to an end. it doesn’t matter what that end is. Whether you try to level up, get new gear or get a new rare skin, if you have to do the same repetitive stuff over and over and over again to get what you want (level-up, gear, skin) it is per definition a grind.
When talking about any form of grind within the game in general, no.
So why then are some people arguing whether the “no-grind philosophy” applies to gear or not? No grind means no grind, that includes no grind for gear, a promise Anet broke.
Then again, Anet broke so many promises. The manifesto video is just too painful too watch. So many promises and statements that Anet pulled a complete 180 on. The most painful part is when Ree Soesbee says: “As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you’re doing, the boss you just killed just respawns 10 minutes later, it doesn’t care that I’m there. We do not want to build that same MMO everyone else is building. In GW2 it’s your world, it’s your story. You will affect things around you in a very permanent way.”
Ouch, just, ouch…
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
Guys does it really matter though? Grind is grind.
Grind isn’t an end, grind is a means to an end. it doesn’t matter what that end is. Whether you try to level up, get new gear or get a new rare skin, if you have to do the same repetitive stuff over and over and over again to get what you want (level-up, gear, skin) it is per definition a grind.
When talking about any form of grind within the game in general, no.
So why then are some people arguing whether the “no-grind philosophy” applies to gear or not? No grind means no grind, that includes no grind for gear, a promise Anet broke.
Then again, Anet broke so many promises. The manifesto video is just too painful too watch. So many promises and statements that Anet pulled a complete 180 on. The most painful part is when Ree Soesbee says: “As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you’re doing, the boss you just killed just respawns 10 minutes later, it doesn’t care that I’m there. We do not want to build that same MMO everyone else is building. In GW2 it’s your world, it’s your story. You will affect things around you in a very permanent way.”
Ouch, just, ouch…
It’s about what was explicitly stated in their manifesto blog/video leading up to the post a month or so ago. They’re were not talking about gear.
In regards to the second part of your post, do you really want content like the Ancient Karka? They have to allow bosses to respawn and be played again at a frequency so that all players can experience them again or for the first time. Many of the bosses do help evolve a map before the event chain resets which was part of their dynamic world concept.
I’d also venture to say that a lot of what we did in the Living Story has affected Tyria in a permanent way.
Go back 2 months before his post that updated/clarified what they meant in the manifesto. Where did they mention gear in the blog or or video? That’s what we’re talking about.
It’s also what Colin’s post is talking about.
What don’t you get? Colin has said they were talking about gear grind. Therefore they were talking about gear grind. End of story. If you find that inconsistencies crop up because of that, take it up with Colin.
It’s about what was explicitly stated in their manifesto blog/video leading up to the post a month or so ago. They’re were not talking about gear.
Yes, they were talking about gear grind. They where talking about grind in general, which includes gear grind. Colin himself said that their no-grind philosophy also extends to gear grind.
In regards to the second part of your post, do you really want content like the Ancient Karka? They have to allow bosses to respawn and be played again at a frequency so that all players can experience them again or for the first time. Many of the bosses do help evolve a map before the event chain resets which was part of their dynamic world concept.
What I want doesn’t matter. What matters is that Anet makes big claims, big statements and big promises and then doesn’t deliver. If you can’t deliver, then don’t promise it. It’s that simple.
And yes I actually would like to see more stuff like the Ancient Karka.
I’d also venture to say that a lot of what we did in the Living Story has affected Tyria in a permanent way.
But not by me. I didn’t affect those things. It happened regardless of whether I was there or not.
Don’t get me wrong, I honestly don’t mind that. I actually think the permanent changes to Tyria are cool (though it’s nothing new, WoW already did this). But again, it’s not about what I think, it’s about Anet promising our actions would have permanent effects on the world which just isn’t true. In fact Archeage did a better job at keeping this promise than Guild Wars 2 did, despite Archeage being a lackluster MMO in my opinion.
Sigh….this thread again….
Hold on, I got something that should sum it up for anyone new….
Attachments:
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.
This post-the second one-was all that was needed to end the thread.
In this game you set your own “grind”. There’s actually zero grind for me, for example, and whenever I take a break, I am never really “behind” anyone, nor do I care if someone has more AP than I do (etc.) I “grinded” (a very tiny bit, actually, compared to other games) for an “useless” but pretty Light of Dwayna for my Guardian because it fit her character concept, but I didn’t need it AT ALL, nor did the stat “benefits” were of any real practical consequence for my purposes.
A lot of people on this thread have the wrong definition of grind. They think if some is not handed to them and they have to work for it than it’s grindy. Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
“Grind refers to leveling " Looks like your definition is the one that is different from the general sense.
It’s an ‘internet term’ so there probably is not one 100% right definition for it but there is a more general definition.
Grind simply refers to repeating a task pretty much for the sole reason of getting something, not because you like the task itself.
Personally I also think ‘currency’ is what difference grind from farming, look for example at wiki’s explanation of grind (where leveling is one example of grind!). “Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.” And also look at ‘farming’ in the same page “Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field)”
So you can grind for additional items but you can also farm for them, what is then the difference? That is where I see the currency. Just as with leveling you grind for XP that rewards you a level or you grind for gold to buy an item vs farm a dungeon or a mob in order to directly obtain an item.
On the other hand, what you also hear a lot is if a ‘farm’ takes too long because of extremely bad RNG or because it’s time-gated people consider it a grind. Of course when you farm something with the intent to sell the item you farm, it also becomes grinding.
Anyway, like I said before the term ‘grind’ is not written in stone but I think it’s clear it for sure does not only refer to leveling. So if anybody is having a wrong definition here it’s you.
(edited by Devata.6589)
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.This post-the second one-was all that was needed to end the thread.
In this game you set your own “grind”. There’s actually zero grind for me, for example, and whenever I take a break, I am never really “behind” anyone, nor do I care if someone has more AP than I do (etc.) I “grinded” (a very tiny bit, actually, compared to other games) for an “useless” but pretty Light of Dwayna for my Guardian because it fit her character concept, but I didn’t need it AT ALL, nor did the stat “benefits” were of any real practical consequence for my purposes.
Unless you start doing fractals, then all of the sudden that grind is no longer optional, since you need at the very least ascended trinkets and then you need to get enough AR infused into them, which is all rather grindy to get.
And don’t say “but you don’t HAVE to do fractals” because that would be a BS argument. No grind means no grind, it shouldn’t mean “no grind in most cases except for some parts of the game”.
And you effectively clarified this argument by describing a two hour grind. That’s not so convincing.
Tobias’s routine wouldn’t count as a grind by the definition Anet has given in this thread.
It would count as one for you, and for me, and seemingly for many others. Which is why Anet’s definition is so troubling; it’s quite self-servingly limited.
I don’t count it as a grind, mostly because I could be doing anything else if I decided not to earn Gold that day. I often do, because I’ll drop into WvW for two or three hours. I’m not doing it now because . . . well, SBI. Nuff said. Silverwastes pretty closely scratches that itch for WvW, though I only sit through maybe one and a half cycles.
I barely care if you consider it a grind or not, really. It was asked how I do it and I answered. It’s a routine I use because it’s what I find interesting enough to do instead of going “meh, log in – log out, call it a night”.
Except that the question was asked in response to this statement that you made:
Is gold a grind? I find it hard to say yes when two hours a day will net me roughly 5g without sticking my head into dungeons. If I did dungeons or spent longer, probably could up that to 20g. And I’ll lay out exactly how I do the 5g to anyone who asks – it’s not a secret, it’s not hard, it’s just working with what you have to do.
So I thought I was implied that I was asking how you made 5g every night without grinding. Your response was that you grind for two hours a night. You went on to clarify that you didn’t consider it a grind because if you didn’t want to earn gold you could do other stuff without grinding. I don’t understand your contribution to this discussion. We were complaining that the sheer amount of gold required to craft end game gear requires serious grinding, and you’re trying to dismiss these complaints on the grounds that you don’t need to grind unless you want gold. It’s like we’re talking in circles here.
Hey, it’s a necroreply. I haven’t had one of those in a while.
And yes, we are talking in circles, because you don’t need to do absurd amounts of grind to craft Exotics. I literally had all I needed for my weapon-making skills to drop Exotics of my choice by the time I hit 80 and 100% World Completion. That was, for the record, three months after release and I made myself a Pearl Stinger. (And immediately transmuted the Ilthas Longbow skin on top of it.)
We’re talking in circles because I listed what I did, and you said “oh, so you grind”. I could be doing any of the other stuff and still be making positive money ever since repair costs got dropped. You’re just wanting to be pedantic about what “grind” means.
You know how much gold you actually need to outfit in serviceable Exotics? I’m betting it’s less than you think. Because you don’t need to bleed out your wallet for Berserker’s gear (Soldier’s does fine), nor Precursors, nor dolyak loads of components for Ascended.
(And don’t tell me Ascended is necessary, I ran around for 6 months after it was introduced with none and still did fantastic. Yes, even in WvW, though that was marred by plenty of dirt naps . . . which was the norm before Ascended anyway. I even had mostly green accessories on.)
Anyway. If people want to continue talking about the grind as if it’s a problem, that’s fine. Every time I want to really experience a grind I’ll watch my brother playing Destiny running Crota for no reasons at all other than “still need to try to get that last raid item”. Or sitting there frowning at my Bravely Default save and auto-running combat trying to get strong enough to not get DeRosa smacking me around.
Or just booting up Pokemon and going “nope” before returning to something more fun.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy.
So where in the manifesto did you get the idea it spoke about gear. What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
What in the manifesto did you get the idea that it spoke specifically about combat and about combat only? What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
And what part of “Word of God” do you not understand? Colin said that the manifesto was about gear grind, so we can all just assume that’s what it is. There is really no point to debating over how to interpret the manifesto, Colin already explained how to interpret the manifesto.
The part of the manifesto that made me think it was about combat were the words “we want to change the way people think about combat.”
What do you think that sentence means and how can you possibly reconcile it to mean that it’s about gear?
And don’t say “but you don’t HAVE to do fractals” because that would be a BS argument. No grind means no grind, it shouldn’t mean “no grind in most cases except for some parts of the game”.
. . . yeah, chief, there’s not going to be a game which has “no grind” by that staple. Though by that interesting argument you made up, Morrowind wouldn’t be grindy since you can beat it in . . . less than 15 minutes I think someone got it to.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.This post-the second one-was all that was needed to end the thread.
In this game you set your own “grind”. There’s actually zero grind for me, for example, and whenever I take a break, I am never really “behind” anyone, nor do I care if someone has more AP than I do (etc.) I “grinded” (a very tiny bit, actually, compared to other games) for an “useless” but pretty Light of Dwayna for my Guardian because it fit her character concept, but I didn’t need it AT ALL, nor did the stat “benefits” were of any real practical consequence for my purposes.
Unless you start doing fractals, then all of the sudden that grind is no longer optional, since you need at the very least ascended trinkets and then you need to get enough AR infused into them, which is all rather grindy to get.
And don’t say “but you don’t HAVE to do fractals” because that would be a BS argument. No grind means no grind, it shouldn’t mean “no grind in most cases except for some parts of the game”.
Yes, you’re right. Fractals was introduced specifically for people who like that play style. BY DESIGN. So they could play how they want to play. That said…
You can still see EVERY fractal without grinding. Every single one. You can’t do a level 50 fractal but you can do a level 29 fractal and its’ pretty much the same.
What do you think that sentence means and how can you possibly reconcile it to mean that it’s about gear?
Because, blindly, Colin posted into this thread addressing the Ascended Gear situation as grindy.
So it stopped becoming about anything in the Manifesto since now the goalposts got moved away from there, into Colin’s post here.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Edit: In fact their EXACT line was “We don’t want people to grind” ,which is quite different than saying people can’t find a way to grind.
They may very well not want people to grind. Do you know better?
Yep.
Which can easily be proved by seeing how not only the game rewards grind, but it also has areas which are basically huge grinds (see the Silverwastes).
The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.
Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
Sorry buddy, but when ArenaNet is talking about what they claim to be grind in the game they made, it matters far more than what you say. And as mentioned in this topic, your definition of grind is wrong – since it’s divergent from ArenaNet’s own definition.
What matters most is that you’re considering a manifesto a promise, not a statement of intent. No matter what the statement of intent was 2 years before launch, even if it did change, it wouldn’t have been a lie while stated.
You’re so attached to maligning the company that you refuse to acknowledge even the most basic truth.
Fact. The manifesto came out 2 years before launch.
Fact. A manifesto is a statement of intent.
Fact. There is no evidence when that was said that it wasn’t the intention.Those are the facts.
It’s not only the manifesto people refer to. In fact, OP talked about the statement Colin made when introducing HoT, I just referred to a statement of Angry Joe to show how players experience grind but also to how Colin did try to dismiss that grind.
Also the no-grind-philosophy has been mentioned many times. But in the end it’s not important if anybody is lying. Anet likely did wanted to make a fun game with no grind. But the problem is that they did end up with a game that by many people is considered as grindy. Or there are grind elements Anet did not have in there ‘no-grind-philosophy’ that is also considered or experienced as grind.
Cosmetics being one of that, what is of course kind of bad if you talk about a no-grind-philosophy, make a game that has a focus on cosmetics and then make that part so grindy. Probably that’s the whole idea from the monetize department, make a game that caters towards people who like cosmetics and then put that behind a grind / in the cash-shop and then give the option to buy the items or gold to buy the items. Financially I can understand why they do it (while I would still think the ‘create a good game, and earn the money by selling it because it’s so good) but it’s not god for the game simply looking at it from a game perspective. And it’s why people feel the grind.
Then it really does not matter if somebody promised or intended to do something or that somebody did or did not lie.
People here (including you) want the best for the game so why derail to useless discussion about if somebodies lied or not. What is important is how it works and how people experience it and also if it scares people away. I mentioned before people experience grind including people who left. I now linked the interview with Angry Joe also to show it is how also other people experience it.
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy.
So where in the manifesto did you get the idea it spoke about gear. What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
What in the manifesto did you get the idea that it spoke specifically about combat and about combat only? What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
And what part of “Word of God” do you not understand? Colin said that the manifesto was about gear grind, so we can all just assume that’s what it is. There is really no point to debating over how to interpret the manifesto, Colin already explained how to interpret the manifesto.
The part of the manifesto that made me think it was about combat were the words “we want to change the way people think about combat.”
What do you think that sentence means and how can you possibly reconcile it to mean that it’s about gear?
Because gear and leveling up is just as much a part of combat as anything else, at least in other MMOs.
I don’t know if you ever played other MMOs but in most of them you have to kill countless of monsters to level-up (grind) and then when you reach max level you have to do the same specific content over and over again to get raid gear (grind) otherwise you won’t be able to do those specific raids.
I have 3 questions for you:
1) What do you think “grind” means and how does it translate to combat according to you?
2) Could it be that the “no-grind philosophy” was meant to be applied to grind in general, which includes grinding for gear?
3) If the answer to question 2 is “yes” then why are we even arguing about this?
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy.
So where in the manifesto did you get the idea it spoke about gear. What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
What in the manifesto did you get the idea that it spoke specifically about combat and about combat only? What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
And what part of “Word of God” do you not understand? Colin said that the manifesto was about gear grind, so we can all just assume that’s what it is. There is really no point to debating over how to interpret the manifesto, Colin already explained how to interpret the manifesto.
The part of the manifesto that made me think it was about combat were the words “we want to change the way people think about combat.”
What do you think that sentence means and how can you possibly reconcile it to mean that it’s about gear?
Because gear and leveling up is just as much a part of combat as anything else, at least in other MMOs.
I don’t know if you ever played other MMOs but in most of them you have to kill countless of monsters to level-up (grind) and then when you reach max level you have to do the same specific content over and over again to get raid gear (grind) otherwise you won’t be able to do those specific raids.
I have 3 questions for you:
1) What do you think “grind” means and how does it translate to combat according to you?
2) Could it be that the “no-grind philosophy” was meant to be applied to grind in general, which includes grinding for gear?
3) If the answer to question 2 is “yes” then why are we even arguing about this?
Gear grind has nothing to do with actual combat. And again, in the months following the manifesto at that time Anet went into what they meant not once, not twice, but several times. Specifically.
Maybe you weren’t there or maybe you don’t remember. Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.
They gave examples of exactly what they meant. They referred to it directly at that time. What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?
I’m glad this thread was necro’ed … it’s much more entertainment than the Silk QQ one.
If people have to type their password to login, they are going to cryhard about grind.
I don’t understand the ‘necro’ complains. Might be me but it used to be the good thing to do when you talked about a subject where there was already a thread about.
I have 3 threads that I created over a year ago and have updated with some additional information while the thread have been ‘lost’ for a long time now. However if for some reason I would want to talk about those things then I would not create a new thread but ‘necro’ that thread as it already has information in it.
You rather have I created a new topic about this subject (after seeing Joe’s interview) talking about exactly the same subject while knowing this topic existed as well.
Well I rather have people ‘necroing’ a thread then creating a new one about the same subject.
Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.
Once again, Vayne claims to know Colin better than Colin himself.
What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?
Better question: Who is more likely to be accurate. The ANet developer, who is a lead dev, or Vayne?
Again. Read the manifesto blog and listen to what he says in the video.
So Colin is lying in his quote. Okay.
I’m sure you and Vayne know better than Colin what they meant.
I’m sure Colin didn’t write the manifesto. He performed it. What he said was very likely what someone wrote. It’s clear from the words at least what isn’t being talked about.
More to the point, I’m sure Colin after five years of not thinking about it knows exactly what he meant five years ago. Hell most people don’t know what they meant a year later never mind five.
Imagine that someone asked you what you meant when you said something five years ago. Like you’d even remember. To a fan who listened to the manifesto this was a major thing and it’s ingrained in their psyche. To Colin it was one day out of many days making a game. What makes you think this is something so important to him he even remembers it.
Good to know that you can read Colin’s mind and know exactly what he thinks, what he feels and what he might or might not have forgotten.
Since you can read Colin’s mind you can probably also see the release date of HoT. Can you tell us? Will it be before or after August?
I don’t need to read someone’s mind to know the liklihood of ANYONE remembering exactly what they meant exactly five years later is unlikely. Unless it’s a hot button issue for them, why would they? It’s not normal to remember exactly what you meant five years ago.
All you need is the most basic knowledge of the human brain to understand this. Saying otherwise, shows a lack of understanding of how memory works.
It’s also not normal to forget about core design principles that shape the rest of your game. Stuff like this is not something you easily forget, ESPECIALLY not as a director or a designer.
Not to mention that Colin has come back on the issue and cleared up that the no-grind philosophy was about GEAR grind, not combat grind. Golin is the director of GW2 so when it comes to this his word is God’s and we can assume he knows best what is or isn’t meant with the no-grind philosophy.
So where in the manifesto did you get the idea it spoke about gear. What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
What in the manifesto did you get the idea that it spoke specifically about combat and about combat only? What word in it besides grind lead you to believe that? Just curious.
And what part of “Word of God” do you not understand? Colin said that the manifesto was about gear grind, so we can all just assume that’s what it is. There is really no point to debating over how to interpret the manifesto, Colin already explained how to interpret the manifesto.
The part of the manifesto that made me think it was about combat were the words “we want to change the way people think about combat.”
What do you think that sentence means and how can you possibly reconcile it to mean that it’s about gear?
Because gear and leveling up is just as much a part of combat as anything else, at least in other MMOs.
I don’t know if you ever played other MMOs but in most of them you have to kill countless of monsters to level-up (grind) and then when you reach max level you have to do the same specific content over and over again to get raid gear (grind) otherwise you won’t be able to do those specific raids.
I have 3 questions for you:
1) What do you think “grind” means and how does it translate to combat according to you?
2) Could it be that the “no-grind philosophy” was meant to be applied to grind in general, which includes grinding for gear?
3) If the answer to question 2 is “yes” then why are we even arguing about this?
Gear grind has nothing to do with actual combat. And again, in the months following the manifesto at that time Anet went into what they meant not once, not twice, but several times. Specifically.
Maybe you weren’t there or maybe you don’t remember. Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.
They gave examples of exactly what they meant. They referred to it directly at that time. What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?
Nice dodge. Please just answer my questions.
And trust me, I remember everything. But why does it matter what they said at the time? Colin said right here in this thread that their philosophy also extends to gear grind. That matters more because it’s from the man himself and it’s more recent.
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.This post-the second one-was all that was needed to end the thread.
In this game you set your own “grind”. There’s actually zero grind for me, for example, and whenever I take a break, I am never really “behind” anyone, nor do I care if someone has more AP than I do (etc.) I “grinded” (a very tiny bit, actually, compared to other games) for an “useless” but pretty Light of Dwayna for my Guardian because it fit her character concept, but I didn’t need it AT ALL, nor did the stat “benefits” were of any real practical consequence for my purposes.
Unless you start doing fractals, then all of the sudden that grind is no longer optional, since you need at the very least ascended trinkets and then you need to get enough AR infused into them, which is all rather grindy to get.
And don’t say “but you don’t HAVE to do fractals” because that would be a BS argument. No grind means no grind, it shouldn’t mean “no grind in most cases except for some parts of the game”.
How is it a “BS argument”, since you can still do every fractal without agony resistance? You know this is true. High level Fractals would be another self-imposed grind, and was the reason ascended stuff exists in the first place (to give complainers something “to play for”, back during the first few months of the game.)
And don’t resort to insults to make your points-not agreeing with someone doesn’t mean what they say must be BS.
Still a lot of talk about who said what. The problem is that people experience grind, a lot of grind and people might find the game boring because of it. When people return for HoT you would not want to scare them away again so Anet should try to prevent this in HoT but as it stands it looks like they don’t see the problem what could be the biggest mistake to date as it might mean returning people will leave again after HoT and won’t come back this time.
That is what should be talked about here imho. Not who said what. At least if you care about the game. If you just want to proof you are right you could go on talking about who said what but it does not help the discussion and so does not help the problem. (the problem of people experiencing grind and likely also leaving because of it).
With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.This post-the second one-was all that was needed to end the thread.
In this game you set your own “grind”. There’s actually zero grind for me, for example, and whenever I take a break, I am never really “behind” anyone, nor do I care if someone has more AP than I do (etc.) I “grinded” (a very tiny bit, actually, compared to other games) for an “useless” but pretty Light of Dwayna for my Guardian because it fit her character concept, but I didn’t need it AT ALL, nor did the stat “benefits” were of any real practical consequence for my purposes.
Unless you start doing fractals, then all of the sudden that grind is no longer optional, since you need at the very least ascended trinkets and then you need to get enough AR infused into them, which is all rather grindy to get.
And don’t say “but you don’t HAVE to do fractals” because that would be a BS argument. No grind means no grind, it shouldn’t mean “no grind in most cases except for some parts of the game”.
Yes, you’re right. Fractals was introduced specifically for people who like that play style. BY DESIGN. So they could play how they want to play. That said…
You can still see EVERY fractal without grinding. Every single one. You can’t do a level 50 fractal but you can do a level 29 fractal and its’ pretty much the same.
You had beaten me to it-this is what I also meant above (my apologies for not reading all posts before posting my own.)
All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.
[TAO] Founder/Owner and Administrator for the NSP Server Website
All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.
Luminiscent armor says otherwise. It’s basically farmville.
Maybe Colin doesn’t remember what was said at those panels but I do remember.
Once again, Vayne claims to know Colin better than Colin himself.
What’s more likely to be accurate, something said at the time, or something said five years later?
Better question: Who is more likely to be accurate. The ANet developer, who is a lead dev, or Vayne?
I said, I DO remember something and I’m NOT SURE whether Colin remembers it. What’s more likely to be accurate, something a dev said about something that was said long ago at the time, or something a dev said about the same thing five years later.
This is simple logic. If you think it’s flawed, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s simply logic. While I can’t say what Colin does or doesn’t remember, I can be certain what I definitely remember.
What’s more likely to be accurate, something a dev said about something that was said long ago at the time, or something a dev said about the same thing five years later.
How about you answer me this. There have been a number of times, where, when the manifesto is brought up, you have stated that it’s intent and wording should not be weighed as heavily because it is a document that is 3+ years old.
Well, we have something like that happening yet again. The clarification has been clarified. Colin has stated what was meant by their anti-grind philosophy, all the way back to the manifesto.
Why exactly does the same not apply this time? Why is it suddenly okay to not weigh the newest statement more heavily? Colin has stated, rather definitively, what they meant by anti-grind philosophy.
One wonders why you’re so desperate to hang onto their past statements this time, when you tend to like to argue for ignoring past statements in favor of whatever is most recent.
Cause I gotta say, if it’s suddenly okay to hold them to past comments again? I’d just like to once again throw into the ring the quote about how every player, even casual ones, should have BiS gear by level 80.
While I can’t say what Colin does or doesn’t remember, I can be certain what I definitely remember.
And Colin apparently disagrees with what you remember. So once again, I ask you, who is more accurate?
The ANet dev? Or you?
What’s more likely to be accurate, something a dev said about something that was said long ago at the time, or something a dev said about the same thing five years later.
How about you answer me this. There have been a number of times, where, when the manifesto is brought up, you have stated that it’s intent and wording should not be weighed as heavily because it is a document that is 3+ years old.
Well, we have something like that happening yet again. The clarification has been clarified. Colin has stated what was meant by their anti-grind philosophy, all the way back to the manifesto.
Why exactly does the same not apply this time? Why is it suddenly okay to not weigh the newest statement more heavily? Colin has stated, rather definitively, what they meant by anti-grind philosophy.
One wonders why you’re so desperate to hang onto their past statements this time, when you tend to like to argue for ignoring past statements in favor of whatever is most recent.
Cause I gotta say, if it’s suddenly okay to hold them to past comments again? I’d just like to once again throw into the ring the quote about how every player, even casual ones, should have BiS gear by level 80.
While I can’t say what Colin does or doesn’t remember, I can be certain what I definitely remember.
And Colin apparently disagrees with what you remember. So once again, I ask you, who is more accurate?
The ANet dev? Or you?
As far as I know, Colin hasn’t disagreed with my memory of what was said. Evidence? Thanks.
All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.
They’ve learned that they need players logging in every day and that poor players buy gems with cash. They’ve learned that releasing skins in game is less profitable than putting them in the gem store, and that they can promise no grind to sell the game and then add it later. The can say “system x” will arrive soon and never actually deliver it.
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What’s more likely to be accurate, something a dev said about something that was said long ago at the time, or something a dev said about the same thing five years later.
How about you answer me this. There have been a number of times, where, when the manifesto is brought up, you have stated that it’s intent and wording should not be weighed as heavily because it is a document that is 3+ years old.
Well, we have something like that happening yet again. The clarification has been clarified. Colin has stated what was meant by their anti-grind philosophy, all the way back to the manifesto.
Why exactly does the same not apply this time? Why is it suddenly okay to not weigh the newest statement more heavily? Colin has stated, rather definitively, what they meant by anti-grind philosophy.
One wonders why you’re so desperate to hang onto their past statements this time, when you tend to like to argue for ignoring past statements in favor of whatever is most recent.
Cause I gotta say, if it’s suddenly okay to hold them to past comments again? I’d just like to once again throw into the ring the quote about how every player, even casual ones, should have BiS gear by level 80.
While I can’t say what Colin does or doesn’t remember, I can be certain what I definitely remember.
And Colin apparently disagrees with what you remember. So once again, I ask you, who is more accurate?
The ANet dev? Or you?
As far as I know, Colin hasn’t disagreed with my memory of what was said. Evidence? Thanks.
Colin on The manifesto said things change. Can’t white knight out of that one.
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Evidence?
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
Thanks.
You’re welcome.
Evidence?
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
Thanks.
You’re welcome.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation. I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.
Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.
The Shadow Behemoth is the type of encounter you might find late in other games, but in Guild Wars 2 they’re giving you those type of experiences right away.
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.
Here is how I see it: Anet intended the game to not be grindy. This did not turn out how they, or the player base, expected. They reiterated on what they meant and have been trying to improve things since. The game continues to improve in regards to it being none grindy.
They are providing more and more ways to acquire what we want, be it via gold, karma, badges, tokens, gems or whatever. They are making improvements to allow us to do what we want to get the things we want.
For example, ascended trinkets were originally only acquired in fractals when they first came out. Now you can get them from champ drops and laurels as well.
As to their philosophy, compared to the manifesto, I am not sure what good it is doing to discuss the differences. We either agree or disagree that it was different or the same. But at the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether they are different or not. What matters is whether we still feel things are grindy now and what needs to be done to improve it in the future.
I know this thread is discussing their no grind philosophy, but I feel it would be more beneficial to us all if the focus was on what their philosophy means now and how this can be seen in the game today, rather than how it may or may not be different to what it was yesterday.
Whether the current philosophy is different to the manifesto is irrelevant. If you do not like the current philosophy then say so, but comparing is them pointless in my opinion, and doesn’t achieve anything.
Evidence?
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
Thanks.
You’re welcome.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation. I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.
Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.
The Shadow Behemoth is the type of encounter you might find late in other games, but in Guild Wars 2 they’re giving you those type of experiences right away.
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.
SB has nothing whatsoever to do with grind. Try harder, this is too easy.
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Evidence?
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
Thanks.
You’re welcome.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation. I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.
Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.
The Shadow Behemoth is the type of encounter you might find late in other games, but in Guild Wars 2 they’re giving you those type of experiences right away.
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=built+like+a+brick+kittenhouse
SB has nothing whatsoever to do with grind. Try harder, this is too easy.
It’s easy, because you’re not actually looking at the words of the manifesto. It’s a good thing some of us are. What’s said is “in most games there’s this annoying grind to get to the fun stuff”
This was identified as leveling your character in order to get to raids, something else the devs said back then. They said that you go through this whole process to level as fast as you can to get to the good stuff at the end. This is the dev’s explanation from back then, not mine.
They used SB as a direct example of what they meant back then. If you don’t believe me, that’s fine. It’s true. You can argue with reality all you want.
Evidence?
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
Thanks.
You’re welcome.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation. I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.
Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.
The Shadow Behemoth is the type of encounter you might find late in other games, but in Guild Wars 2 they’re giving you those type of experiences right away.
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=built+like+a+brick+kittenhouse
SB has nothing whatsoever to do with grind. Try harder, this is too easy.
It’s easy, because you’re not actually looking at the words of the manifesto. It’s a good thing some of us are. What’s said is “in most games there’s this annoying grind to get to the fun stuff”
This was identified as leveling your character in order to get to raids, something else the devs said back then. They said that you go through this whole process to level as fast as you can to get to the good stuff at the end. This is the dev’s explanation from back then, not mine.
They used SB as a direct example of what they meant back then. If you don’t believe me, that’s fine. It’s true. You can argue with reality all you want.
I’ll argue only because you’re wrong, and I suspect you know it. The manifesto stated that all characters would have easy access to The best gear in the game right at 80.
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Lol. What are guys grinding for?
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It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow Colin’s quote.
I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.
And all those things are irrelevant, as per Colin’s most recent clarification.
According to Colin, what was actually meant was gear grind.
Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.
It’s also a fact that Colin has stated that anything involving their anti-grind philosophy was about gear grind.
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
And clearly they didn’t actually mean it since Colin has corrected us otherwise in this thread, telling us that, and I will repeat again, they meant gear grind.
Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.
Colin’s quote isn’t “something else” when it says things like “way back before Gw2 shipped”, thus implying the manifesto, and “when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then”, implying all the other times, in regards to Anet having a policy of no grind.
It is a quote that overrides earlier quotes. So it doesn’t matter that SB was brought up. According to Colin, they meant gear grind. They always meant gear grind.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow the conversation.
It would be lovely if you could actually follow Colin’s quote.
I’m referring to what was said at the time by Anet employees at numerous conventions after the manifesto.
And all those things are irrelevant, as per Colin’s most recent clarification.
According to Colin, what was actually meant was gear grind.
Specifically about the line about not having to grind to have fun, a line from the manifesto itself. And in those instances, the Shadow Behemonth WAS used an example. Not a theory. Not a guess. It’s a fact.
It’s also a fact that Colin has stated that anything involving their anti-grind philosophy was about gear grind.
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
And clearly they didn’t actually mean it since Colin has corrected us otherwise in this thread, telling us that, and I will repeat again, they meant gear grind.
Whether you want to bring up something else is completely irrelevant to that point.
Colin’s quote isn’t “something else” when it says things like “way back before Gw2 shipped”, thus implying the manifesto, and “when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then”, implying all the other times, in regards to Anet having a policy of no grind.
It is a quote that overrides earlier quotes. So it doesn’t matter that SB was brought up. According to Colin, they meant gear grind. They always meant gear grind.
This your opinion and in my opinion it’s a misguided one.
Anet made a statement today about something they meant five years ago. It doesn’t change them explaining what they meant five years ago.
In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people. if they said something repeatedly, and they did say it repeatedly, five years ago at around the time they produced the manifesto, it’s probably an accurate embellishment of the manifesto.
Five years later, they have to depend on imperfect memories and respond to specific comments that frankly have gotten a life of their own. I don’t really blame Anet for being in damage control mode on this topic.
But what they said back then is very likely what they meant, because they were after all explaining the manifesto at that time.
Hey folks,
I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.
When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply:“We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.
So what exactly does that mean:
- The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)
- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t *need to grind* to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.
There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.
Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.
Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.
The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.
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The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.
Here is how I think Anet looks at this:
You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.
This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.
Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.
This your opinion and in my opinion it’s a misguided one.
I really don’t care what your opinion of anything I say is.
Anet made a statement today about something they meant five years ago. It doesn’t change them explaining what they meant five years ago.
But it does still change what they meant five years ago. If that burns you so bad, then take it up with Colin. But I’ll note he has yet to come back in here and clarify his clarification. So, until he clarifies yet again for a clarification upon a clarification, what we have is that what they meant was gear grind and you are just going to have to deal with it, Vayne.
In my mind, and I think in the mind of most reasonable people.
Ah yes, because anyone that disagrees with you is unreasonable. Especially those people who take Colin’s current quote at face value. How dare they!
Then again, I forget. You’re Vayne, and your opinion is king above all others.
if they said something repeatedly, and they did say it repeatedly, five years ago at around the time they produced the manifesto, it’s probably an accurate embellishment of the manifesto.
And should that be the case, Colin needs to come in here and clarify his clarification. Yet again.
Five years later, they have to depend on imperfect memories
They have, according to you, documented quotes. For all the world to see.
Imperfect memories is a shoddy excuse.
I don’t really blame Anet for being in damage control mode on this topic.
All I’ll say on this is that they wouldn’t need damage control if they hadn’t introduced the grind that is Ascended.
But what they said back then is very likely what they meant, because they were after all explaining the manifesto at that time.
And yet, Colin says otherwise.
Take the inconsistency up with him.
Regardless, it doesn’t change the fact that what Colin says > what you say when it comes to ANet, the game, and their intentions.
The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.
Here is how I think Anet looks at this:
You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.
This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.
Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.
It costs roughly 500g to craft ascended heavy armor, significantly more for light armor. You suggest that I farm gold not mats so that it won’t be a grind. I say farming 500g to craft armor… Is also grinding.
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Unlucky since launch, RNG isn’t random
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Unlucky since launch, RNG isn’t random
PugLife SoloQ
All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.
Luminiscent armor says otherwise. It’s basically farmville.
I’m ok with skins being grindy. Although i’m currently not ok with killing Ogres to unlock the achievement (Ogre tooth drop). I’ve slaughtered at least 1000 at this point, still nada. That’s the stuff that irks me.
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With no grind, they mean no mandatory grind. There is no gear threadmill.
You don’t have to grind in order to keep up. All the grind in this game is just for cosmetics. Sure there is ascended, but that’s only like 5% better than exotic so you don’t really need it.This post-the second one-was all that was needed to end the thread.
In this game you set your own “grind”. There’s actually zero grind for me, for example, and whenever I take a break, I am never really “behind” anyone, nor do I care if someone has more AP than I do (etc.) I “grinded” (a very tiny bit, actually, compared to other games) for an “useless” but pretty Light of Dwayna for my Guardian because it fit her character concept, but I didn’t need it AT ALL, nor did the stat “benefits” were of any real practical consequence for my purposes.
Unless you start doing fractals, then all of the sudden that grind is no longer optional, since you need at the very least ascended trinkets and then you need to get enough AR infused into them, which is all rather grindy to get.
And don’t say “but you don’t HAVE to do fractals” because that would be a BS argument. No grind means no grind, it shouldn’t mean “no grind in most cases except for some parts of the game”.
How is it a “BS argument”, since you can still do every fractal without agony resistance? You know this is true. High level Fractals would be another self-imposed grind, and was the reason ascended stuff exists in the first place (to give complainers something “to play for”, back during the first few months of the game.)
And don’t resort to insults to make your points-not agreeing with someone doesn’t mean what they say must be BS.
It is a BS argument because if you start going down that lane I could say “playing GW2 in itself is optional”. They could make everything in GW2 a grind and I we could still say “it’s only optional” or “it’s self-imposed” because playing the game is in itself optional and self-imposed. It’s just total and utter BS.
If you want to do high-level fractals, you have to grind. If you want the best gear in the game, you have to grind. If you want a legendary weapon, you have to grind. If you want to get on the PvP leaderboards, you have to grind. Yes, all of those things are optional, but that is a BS argument and doesn’t matter. The fact of the matter is that GW2 has a lot of grind, way more than some fans or even Anet themselves want to admit.
EDIT: I want to clarify that I’m completely fine with grind as long as the grind itself is somewhat fun. I don’t mind doing challenging and engaging content over and over again. Raiding in WoW was incredibly grindy but I enjoyed that. So I don’t mind GW2 having grind, I just want them to make the grind less of a chore and more engaging. Fractals is a step in the right direction. But I just want to point out that regardless of our opinions on grind and whether it’s optional or not, GW2 does have grind, a lot of it, and some of the grind is so bad and braindead that I really hope Anet doesn’t add more of that type of grind to GW2.
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
They gave the example of what they meant at that time.
Sometimes people say A but mean B. Sometimes people say C while meaning C but also D.
Colin explained what they meant with their no-grind philosophy and he explained that gear grind is also part of that philosophy. End of discussion. This beaten horse really doesn’t need to be beaten even further just because you don’t want to admit that you’re wrong.
(edited by LucosTheDutch.4819)
Ok. I’ve been watching this thread for awhile. Now I feel it’s time to weigh in.
So the whole argument, that keeps going in circles is:
Anet said “no grind”. But ascended is grind. Thus Anet lied.
But ascended is optional and is there for a goal for people to work toward.
But ascended is BiS gear. Period. And if you want BiS you need to grind to get it.
[insert break down if ascended vs. exotic stats] But it’s not that much of a difference, thus still optional.
[instert break down of ascended vs exotic] but that much makes it almost a requirement in certain game modes, where it basically comes down to a numbers game.
But colin clarified it and said, that most of the grind in game is optional, and that acceptable.
But ascended isn’t optional if you want BiS. Thus it’s a grind, and Anet lied.
Ad Nauseum.
Basically it comes down to this.
So what if ascended, skins, legendaries, BiS, fractals, etc. is a grind? So Anet changed their minds and made ascended, which does require a grind. And? Does this mean the game is kittened now? Is there such a mass exodus that Anet is looking at closing their doors? Does it mean that BiS (i.e. ascended) takes more time? So what if it does?Does it stop you from being able to complete or participate in any game mode or game game activity?
So the manifesto doesn’t match up exactly to what the game is now. But what does it matter? Do you still login and play? If yes, then I’d say what the manifesto says really has no bearing on whether or not anyone plays or enjoys the game. If no, then why are you complaining about it? You don’t play so it doesn’t effect you.
Anet isn’t going to change the manifesto, the game, or ascended equipment just because people feel that it’s a grind. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Period. If you do like it. Great! More power to you. But in the end, this discussion really doesn’t solve anything and only serves to inflame passions, and circular arguments which basically boil down to “yes it is!” “No it isn’t” “Yes it is!” “No it isn’t!”
/end thread.
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It’s the chain I beat you with until you
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Here is how I see it: Anet intended the game to not be grindy. This did not turn out how they, or the player base, expected. They reiterated on what they meant and have been trying to improve things since. The game continues to improve in regards to it being none grindy.
While I agree that on many parts the game have been improving (while some changes where also for the worse) for the grind the opposite is true. The game has only become more grindy since launch.
With every thing added to the cash-shop (directly, or indirectly) with every new currency added and with every item put in the game that you can’t really get directly but mainly with gold the game becomes more and more grindy.. Well if purchasing those items is your thing.
Obviously then there is the option to not grind as in any game (I don’t) but then if you like cosmetics more and more of the items you would normally hunt down in the game become out of reach making the game less and less interesting / fun. While when added in the correct way (in the game attainable by specific fun content) with any of those items added the game could have become better.
“They are providing more and more ways to acquire what we want, be it via gold, karma, badges, tokens, gems or whatever.” Currency, currency, currency, currency and currency. How about rewarding for content as grinding the currency is what makes it all such a grind?
As it stands it only has become more grindy.
(edited by Devata.6589)