Guild Wars 2

What grind is there for ascendeds… in normal play you earn everything needed being bloodstone dust , emperyal faragments and dragonite ore, with skillpoints you get every 250k XP and some materials you can get from the TP and your dailies you have everything, not instant that’s true but you’ll get it with no real effort. only thing you’ll need to find is obsidian shards…

The few ppl who think they’ll need ascendeds because they’re there and cannot possibly live without ascendeds, which are downscaled to exotics anyways in all sub level 80 content anyways…, are farming like lunatics and will find there is a black hole after they finished their -self-imposed- “grind”.

below level 45 anything above rare is already downscaled…. below level 30 everything above masterwork is downscaled…. below 10 everything above fine is downscaled…

Just to notify: You are farming your heads of for 5 regions (cursed shore, southsun cove, dry top and silverwastes) and a 2 small parts (malchor’s leap, and frostgorge, (NOT even including the Claw of Jormag area)) and 3 dungeons (Arah, HotW, CoE)… in all other areas exotic will do the same dmg and be a few stat points weaker… making it not even 1% WORSE.

So just buy a damask if you have 12 gold to spare and see when some obsidian shards drop in SW and take as much time as you want.

1 remark: HoT is going to be full 80. When it’s out it will matter 5% over there, but mechanics may or may not dictate other gear then zerk… your choice. I doubt you’ll be able to reselect stats

The problem in GW2 right now (IMO) isn’t the grind, but the grind / challenge ratio.

I don’t mind grinds, I really don’t. What has been a problem for me, and the reason I’ve only spent about five to six dedicated months in this game since the 48-hour head-start before official release, is the fact there are hardly any interesting dungeon / quest rewards as compared to more traditional style MMORPGs. Most of the coolest skins demands use of the store, or requires more grinding than I’ve ever had to deal with in a game.

The only challenging things gw2 has to offer that also promise decent reward is Triple Trouble and fractals. TT is an exciting event when you have a fully coordinated group, and the rewards at the end are usually excellent. Fractals are decent too, although I would argue that even with a competent group, you are likely to get screwed over every once in a while from things completely out of your control.

Point being, we just need more challenging / less grind content in this game that actually offers something decent.

I tend to go against your remark…

A lot of very beautiful skins have been released (dwayna, grenth, mawdrey, balthazar, zephyrite backs, several weapon skins (bonetti’s rapier, scarlet’s kiss) and even though BL weapon skins cost a lot they are available for everybody….

Stat selection has been widened allowing for sinister, zealot and nomads, which is frowned upon by many not able to look beyond zerk. in fact people completely stopped farming certain areas… why would you look beyond zerk anyways…

but real grinds.. no there have been none…

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

What grind is there for ascendeds… in normal play you earn everything needed being bloodstone dust , emperyal faragments and dragonite ore, with skillpoints you get every 250k XP and some materials you can get from the TP and your dailies you have everything, not instant that’s true but you’ll get it with no real effort. only thing you’ll need to find is obsidian shards…

The few ppl who think they’ll need ascendeds because they’re there and cannot possibly live without ascendeds, which are downscaled to exotics anyways in all sub level 80 content anyways…, are farming like lunatics and will find there is a black hole after they finished their -self-imposed- “grind”.

below level 45 anything above rare is already downscaled…. below level 30 everything above masterwork is downscaled…. below 10 everything above fine is downscaled…

Just to notify: You are farming your heads of for 5 regions (cursed shore, southsun cove, dry top and silverwastes) and a 2 small parts (malchor’s leap, and frostgorge, (NOT even including the Claw of Jormag area)) and 3 dungeons (Arah, HotW, CoE)… in all other areas exotic will do the same dmg and be a few stat points weaker… making it not even 1% WORSE.

So just buy a damask if you have 12 gold to spare and see when some obsidian shards drop in SW and take as much time as you want.

1 remark: HoT is going to be full 80. When it’s out it will matter 5% over there, but mechanics may or may not dictate other gear then zerk… your choice. I doubt you’ll be able to reselect stats

Nice post, true in many ways…. but you just forgot what ascended was implemented for : Fractals. Those could almost be considered as a separate game mode… where you can earn ascended quality gear

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

What grind is there for ascendeds… in normal play you earn everything needed being bloodstone dust , emperyal faragments and dragonite ore, with skillpoints you get every 250k XP and some materials you can get from the TP and your dailies you have everything, not instant that’s true but you’ll get it with no real effort. only thing you’ll need to find is obsidian shards…

And all those mats you just mentioned just sit in my bank because I cannot gather silk fast enough to use up all those “rare” items you just mentioned. Even obsidian shards are easy. You just do the Balthazar event one time and spend your karma on them. It’s the silk that’s grindy. Those who say otherwise crafted their gear in the old days when the silk cost was 2/3 what it is now and silk could be bought on the TP for several copper rather than the 2+ silver that it costs now.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

So just buy a damask if you have 12 gold to spare and see when some obsidian shards drop in SW and take as much time as you want.

An ascended piece costs about 4 damask, not one. That’s 48 gold to spare, and that happens to be my entire bank account. I know you’re probably swimming in gold, but that’s because you don’t have to hoard all of your silk scraps. The 100 silk that you’re collecting every week is siphoning 2 gold a week from some new player who didn’t get to craft their ascended gear before it became grindy.

Bernie.8674:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

What grind is there for ascendeds… in normal play you earn everything needed being bloodstone dust , emperyal faragments and dragonite ore, with skillpoints you get every 250k XP and some materials you can get from the TP and your dailies you have everything, not instant that’s true but you’ll get it with no real effort. only thing you’ll need to find is obsidian shards…

And all those mats you just mentioned just sit in my bank because I cannot gather silk fast enough to use up all those “rare” items you just mentioned. Even obsidian shards are easy. You just do the Balthazar event one time and spend your karma on them. It’s the silk that’s grindy. Those who say otherwise crafted their gear in the old days when the silk cost was 2/3 what it is now and silk could be bought on the TP for several copper rather than the 2+ silver that it costs now.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

So just buy a damask if you have 12 gold to spare and see when some obsidian shards drop in SW and take as much time as you want.

An ascended piece costs about 4 damask, not one. That’s 48 gold to spare, and that happens to be my entire bank account. I know you’re probably swimming in gold, but that’s because you don’t have to hoard all of your silk scraps. The 100 silk that you’re collecting every week is siphoning 2 gold a week from some new player who didn’t get to craft their ascended gear before it became grindy.

As an aside, I crafted my first ascended armor set well after the change, where the price was nearly what it is now. I am working on my second set with the current prices. I’ve never been particularly rich, but occassionally I’ll clear out my bank selling everything I don’t need for a bit of extra cash to buy what I do need. Which is yet another way to get the materials needed.

pdavis.8031:

As an aside, I crafted my first ascended armor set well after the change, where the price was nearly what it is now. I am working on my second set with the current prices. I’ve never been particularly rich, but occassionally I’ll clear out my bank selling everything I don’t need for a bit of extra cash to buy what I do need. Which is yet another way to get the materials needed.

And you gathered the requisite silk well after the change as well? Without any grinding?

Bernie.8674:

pdavis.8031:

As an aside, I crafted my first ascended armor set well after the change, where the price was nearly what it is now. I am working on my second set with the current prices. I’ve never been particularly rich, but occassionally I’ll clear out my bank selling everything I don’t need for a bit of extra cash to buy what I do need. Which is yet another way to get the materials needed.

And you gathered the requisite silk well after the change as well? Without any grinding?

Most of it yeah. Bought what I could when I could, but gathered a very large portion of it just playing and doing what I wanted to.

For my second set though, I choose to do Silverwastes. Not only because it’s an awesome for silk gathering, but I really do enjoy the event. I love organizing the map, taxiing people in, and collecting massive amounts of loot and monies. Lots of rares available which I toss in the forge. I’ve gotten quite a few exotics, and an ascended chest from this. It’s awesome! For me the extra silk is a nice side effect for doing what I enjoy. If I felt that I needed to do Silverwastes in order to get any silk at all, then it would become a grind. As it is, if I am having fun, and collecting along the way, it’s a win.

Yeah, if a player loves repeating content in the Silverwastes over and over again, then getting their silk for ascended will be fun. It’ll prolly still take a while, though, because I’m very skeptical of people claiming they can get all the silk they need in just a day or two of this.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Yeah, if a player loves repeating content in the Silverwastes over and over again, then getting their silk for ascended will be fun. It’ll prolly still take a while, though, because I’m very skeptical of people claiming they can get all the silk they need in just a day or two of this.

Yeah, thats just not really possible. Unless thats all they do all day every day.

But again, what makes a grind a grind is what the particular player enjoys doing. If I like SW, than doing it a couple of times a day isnt’a grind. IF you don’t like SW then doing it at all will feel like a grind.

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

Celtic Lady.3729:

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

And thats what I am trying to change. It’s a matter of perception. Although there are those who are claiming that you are forced to do specific things within the game in order to get BiS gear, I am contending that that isn’t true. And thus isn’t a grind, and thus Anet didn’t “lie” when they said they don’t want player to grind.

pdavis.8031:

Celtic Lady.3729:

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

And thats what I am trying to change. It’s a matter of perception. Although there are those who are claiming that you are forced to do specific things within the game in order to get BiS gear, I am contending that that isn’t true. And thus isn’t a grind, and thus Anet didn’t “lie” when they said they don’t want player to grind.

For whatever reason you’re missing the entire point here. As Colin clarified in this very post BiS gear was meant to be easily accessible to everyone. That changed with ascended which is a monster grind. You yourself said you’ve worked 2 months on 1 piece of ascended, so at your pace, that’s a year for a set.

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Celtic Lady.3729:

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

And thats what I am trying to change. It’s a matter of perception. Although there are those who are claiming that you are forced to do specific things within the game in order to get BiS gear, I am contending that that isn’t true. And thus isn’t a grind, and thus Anet didn’t “lie” when they said they don’t want player to grind.

For whatever reason you’re missing the entire point here. As Colin clarified in this very post BiS gear was meant to be easily accessible to everyone. That changed with ascended which is a monster grind. You yourself said you’ve worked 2 months on 1 piece of ascended, so at your pace, that’s a year for a set.

And? Am I forced to do certain content, or kill certain enemies, or play any particular game mode? Not in the slightest. Ascended is easily accessible. I can get all the materials playing whatever I want, doing whatever I want, in-game. Period. However, easily accessible does not mean quick to get. And thats where the disconnect is. Easily accessible means anyone and everyone can get it. Does it take long getting the stuff “naturally”? Of course, but thats not the issue. It still can be done without having to do anything special.

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Celtic Lady.3729:

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

And thats what I am trying to change. It’s a matter of perception. Although there are those who are claiming that you are forced to do specific things within the game in order to get BiS gear, I am contending that that isn’t true. And thus isn’t a grind, and thus Anet didn’t “lie” when they said they don’t want player to grind.

For whatever reason you’re missing the entire point here. As Colin clarified in this very post BiS gear was meant to be easily accessible to everyone. That changed with ascended which is a monster grind. You yourself said you’ve worked 2 months on 1 piece of ascended, so at your pace, that’s a year for a set.

And? Am I forced to do certain content, or kill certain enemies, or play any particular game mode? Not in the slightest. Ascended is easily accessible. I can get all the materials playing whatever I want, doing whatever I want, in-game. Period. However, easily accessible does not mean quick to get. And thats where the disconnect is. Easily accessible means anyone and everyone can get it. Does it take long getting the stuff “naturally”? Of course, but thats not the issue. It still can be done without having to do anything special.

You’re coming around.

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Celtic Lady.3729:

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

And thats what I am trying to change. It’s a matter of perception. Although there are those who are claiming that you are forced to do specific things within the game in order to get BiS gear, I am contending that that isn’t true. And thus isn’t a grind, and thus Anet didn’t “lie” when they said they don’t want player to grind.

For whatever reason you’re missing the entire point here. As Colin clarified in this very post BiS gear was meant to be easily accessible to everyone. That changed with ascended which is a monster grind. You yourself said you’ve worked 2 months on 1 piece of ascended, so at your pace, that’s a year for a set.

And? Am I forced to do certain content, or kill certain enemies, or play any particular game mode? Not in the slightest. Ascended is easily accessible. I can get all the materials playing whatever I want, doing whatever I want, in-game. Period. However, easily accessible does not mean quick to get. And thats where the disconnect is. Easily accessible means anyone and everyone can get it. Does it take long getting the stuff “naturally”? Of course, but thats not the issue. It still can be done without having to do anything special.

You’re coming around.

Not really. Time involved does not equal grind. If I feel I need to get it to be competitive in WvW, or to run high level fractals, or to be that much more effective in PvE, then sure, I can grind it out in a shorter amount of time. But that isn’t the point.

The main point that keeps getting brought up is Anet lied when they said no grind. And ascended “quickly” equals grind, thus Anet lied. Anyone can get ascended. No one is required to to anything special to get ascended, other than play the game. No one ever said that it was supposed to be a fast process. Anet certainly didn’t, and never implied that it was. So if I can get ascended equipment just by playing the game, how has Anet lied?

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf.5964:

pdavis.8031:

Celtic Lady.3729:

That’s the thing with grind discussions. ArenaNet has a very narrow definition of grind that allows them to make their claims. But this gets lost in translation because the average MMO player doesn’t relegate the definition of grind to simply “leveling up” or “getting top gear.” Most people consider the game as a whole and when you do that, there is a lot of grindy stuff in GW2, so the game’s claim seems outrageously untrue to most people coming into the discussion.

And thats what I am trying to change. It’s a matter of perception. Although there are those who are claiming that you are forced to do specific things within the game in order to get BiS gear, I am contending that that isn’t true. And thus isn’t a grind, and thus Anet didn’t “lie” when they said they don’t want player to grind.

For whatever reason you’re missing the entire point here. As Colin clarified in this very post BiS gear was meant to be easily accessible to everyone. That changed with ascended which is a monster grind. You yourself said you’ve worked 2 months on 1 piece of ascended, so at your pace, that’s a year for a set.

And? Am I forced to do certain content, or kill certain enemies, or play any particular game mode? Not in the slightest. Ascended is easily accessible. I can get all the materials playing whatever I want, doing whatever I want, in-game. Period. However, easily accessible does not mean quick to get. And thats where the disconnect is. Easily accessible means anyone and everyone can get it. Does it take long getting the stuff “naturally”? Of course, but thats not the issue. It still can be done without having to do anything special.

You’re coming around.

Not really. Time involved does not equal grind. If I feel I need to get it to be competitive in WvW, or to run high level fractals, or to be that much more effective in PvE, then sure, I can grind it out in a shorter amount of time. But that isn’t the point.

The main point that keeps getting brought up is Anet lied when they said no grind. And ascended “quickly” equals grind, thus Anet lied. Anyone can get ascended. No one is required to to anything special to get ascended, other than play the game. No one ever said that it was supposed to be a fast process. Anet certainly didn’t, and never implied that it was. So if I can get ascended equipment just by playing the game, how has Anet lied?

Did Anet go against their manifesto by adding gear grind?
Obviously

I’m more concerned with changes to loot that have gone haywire and made ascended much more of a grind. The changes to level specific loot when down leveled, the 4 scraps for 1 bolt of silk, and 100 bolts of silk for Dams.

You’re arguing against the word grind (which is subjective) but failing to acknowledge evidence presented to answer questions you pose. I will no longer respond to you

Aidenwolf:
Did Anet go against their manifesto by adding a new tier of gear that one can aquire the materials to craft just by playing the game?
Not in the slightest.

As far as evidence? I haven’t seen any yet. Everything said is that it takes a lot of materials/time. I am not denying that. Yes it takes a lot of materials, yes it takes a lot of time.

Let me use another example from EQ.
I wanted to get a specific item from my paladin trainer. In order to get that particular item I had to go to the 1 place in the entire game where the enemies that dropped the items needed to trade to get that item were. But those enemies ONLY spawn at night. And then only a few of them. They had a 5% chance to drop the collection item. So I had to go to a specific place, at a specific time and kill a specific enemy in order to get the items I needed.

Is there anything remotely like that in GW2? NOT. AT. ALL.

Anet defined what they meant by grind. Going by their definition, crafting ascended does not fit their definition.

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf:
Did Anet go against their manifesto by adding a new tier of gear that one can aquire the materials to craft just by playing the game?
Not in the slightest.

As far as evidence? I haven’t seen any yet. Everything said is that it takes a lot of materials/time. I am not denying that. Yes it takes a lot of materials, yes it takes a lot of time.

Let me use another example from EQ.
I wanted to get a specific item from my paladin trainer. In order to get that particular item I had to go to the 1 place in the entire game where the enemies that dropped the items needed to trade to get that item were. But those enemies ONLY spawn at night. And then only a few of them. They had a 5% chance to drop the collection item. So I had to go to a specific place, at a specific time and kill a specific enemy in order to get the items I needed.

Is there anything remotely like that in GW2? NOT. AT. ALL.

Anet defined what they meant by grind. Going by their definition, crafting ascended does not fit their definition.

Simple put, their definition of grind does not line up with general players definition of grind.

That’s why they see the game as non grindy whereas many players do.

This is not really an issue of perception though, because people aren’t mad about the semantic definition of grind.

They are saying call it what you want but this game feels grindy. Anet should be more concerned that a lot of people would call the game super grindy, than the defintion of grind.

phys.7689:

pdavis.8031:

Aidenwolf:
Did Anet go against their manifesto by adding a new tier of gear that one can aquire the materials to craft just by playing the game?
Not in the slightest.

As far as evidence? I haven’t seen any yet. Everything said is that it takes a lot of materials/time. I am not denying that. Yes it takes a lot of materials, yes it takes a lot of time.

Let me use another example from EQ.
I wanted to get a specific item from my paladin trainer. In order to get that particular item I had to go to the 1 place in the entire game where the enemies that dropped the items needed to trade to get that item were. But those enemies ONLY spawn at night. And then only a few of them. They had a 5% chance to drop the collection item. So I had to go to a specific place, at a specific time and kill a specific enemy in order to get the items I needed.

Is there anything remotely like that in GW2? NOT. AT. ALL.

Anet defined what they meant by grind. Going by their definition, crafting ascended does not fit their definition.

Simple put, their definition of grind does not line up with general players definition of grind.

That’s why they see the game as non grindy whereas many players do.

This is not really an issue of perception though, because people aren’t mad about the semantic definition of grind.

They are saying call it what you want but this game feels grindy. Anet should be more concerned that a lot of people would call the game super grindy, than the defintion of grind.

Thats probably the most reasonable argument in this thread in recent memory.

It’s the same reason that Apple can claim that their devices are “virus free” and “cannot get viruses”. They have a VERY specific and narrow definition of what a virus is. Anything else (i.e. malware, trojans, spyware, adware, rootkits, etc.) doesn’t meet their definition, thus it’s not a virus.

However, even if most people feel that it is a grind to get ascended, I hope to at least shed some light on the fact that one can obtain ascended gear without being forced to do certain content.

Coffee.7058:

What I love — the people, beauty, and making gold.

Just out of curiosity, how do you make your gold?

Celtic Lady.3729:

Coffee.7058:

What I love — the people, beauty, and making gold.

Just out of curiosity, how do you make your gold?

I deleted post because after rereading it, it seemed really mean lol.

You grind trains for gold or buy low sell high. The first option is easiest.

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

eotm train, and silverwastes is the big ones nowadays, i hear orr still has people doing events for cash too

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

eotm train, and silverwastes is the big ones nowadays, i hear orr still has people doing events for cash too

“eotm "?

pdavis.8031:

Bernie.8674:

And you gathered the requisite silk well after the change as well? Without any grinding?

Most of it yeah. Bought what I could when I could, but gathered a very large portion of it just playing and doing what I wanted to.

So you bought what you could using whatever money you gathered exclusively on your new character before you were expected to dump 80 gold on traits and 300 gold on a commander tag, right?

pdavis.8031:

For my second set though, I choose to do Silverwastes. Not only because it’s an awesome for silk gathering, but I really do enjoy the event. I love organizing the map, taxiing people in, and collecting massive amounts of loot and monies. Lots of rares available which I toss in the forge. I’ve gotten quite a few exotics, and an ascended chest from this. It’s awesome! For me the extra silk is a nice side effect for doing what I enjoy. If I felt that I needed to do Silverwastes in order to get any silk at all, then it would become a grind. As it is, if I am having fun, and collecting along the way, it’s a win.

And for your second set you chose to grind. If map hopping through Silverwastes via megaserver were an immersive experience for me I probably wouldn’t mind doing it either. Unfortunately after my first three hours in there, it became an absolute borefest.

No one is disputing that you can get ascended gear after the change. The dispute is over whether you have to grind for it or not. “Most” of it wasn’t grinded. None of mine is grinded either. After my next piece I’ll be able to claim that “most” of my set isn’t grinded. Grinding the rest of the set is still going to be grinding. I’m doing mine without grind, and I’m only half way through after 10 months. Why? Because I enjoy variety. I don’t want to treat a game like a stint on the assembly line.

pdavis.8031:

As far as evidence? I haven’t seen any yet. Everything said is that it takes a lot of materials/time. I am not denying that. Yes it takes a lot of materials, yes it takes a lot of time.

And time was also mentioned in the manifesto:

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Then again, technically you’re right. It doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun; instead you get to spend months or years.

Coffee.7058:

phys.7689:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

eotm train, and silverwastes is the big ones nowadays, i hear orr still has people doing events for cash too

“eotm "?

Edge of the mists, its the wvw lite map, but the way it is actually played, is to go around taking all the castles with a skirmish breaking out every 30 min or so. Lots of champs, vets and events.

Bernie.8674:

Vayne.8563:

Silk isn’t an ascended mat. And you certainly don’t have to run dungeons for silk.

It’s effectively an ascended mat because you need 300 scraps of it for one bolt of damask. Damask is required for all ascended pieces. I have ascended mats coming out my ears. The limiting factor in my obtaining a full ascended set right now is the silk. Honestly, when most of us say that we’re required to grind for ascended gear, silk acquisition is at the heart of that grind.

Right but here’s the deal with silk. You make gold doing everything in this game. You can farm Orr or Silk, or the Silverwastes, or Frostgorge, or run dungeons. You can get silk from salvaging any 80th level cloth armor drop which you can get anywhere in the game, even from doing jumping puzzles.

The concept of grind was meant that you had to do one thing. I don’t have to do one thing to get silk. I can play the TP (if I were any good at it) and make enough gold to buy all the silk I need from the TP and some people do. I can run the Silverwastes and get a ton of silk which is why silk prices went so far down until recently. I was buying silk at 4 gold a stack at one point.

I can get 4 gold quite easily playing the game. If your focus is on the silk itself, and that’s all your doing, grinding silk, that’s a mental thing.

But if I’m playing the game and eventually I get what I need to buy the silk I didn’t incidentally pick up, I wouldn’t qualify it as grind.

But your definition anything you have to do repeatedly is grind, even if you would get it anyway just by playing.

If you stayed in Queensdale long enough because that’s what you’d like, as a level 80 character you’d be getting silk along the way.

Bernie.8674:

pdavis.8031:

As far as evidence? I haven’t seen any yet. Everything said is that it takes a lot of materials/time. I am not denying that. Yes it takes a lot of materials, yes it takes a lot of time.

And time was also mentioned in the manifesto:

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Then again, technically you’re right. It doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun; instead you get to spend months or years.

Only if you’re forcing yourself to do stuff you don’t want to do. Since I got ALL my silk doing exactly what I wanted (something you generally can’t do in most MMOs), it didn’t suck a single minute of my time. Everything I do gives me gold, which is the game. Eventually I got the money to buy the silk that didn’t drop. But I was having fun doing ALL of it. That’s why I play games…to have fun.

In most games if you want a piece of armor with this stat, you have to raid. And since I dont’ enjoy raiding and since there’s no guarantee of drops in raids and I"d have to raid over and over again, that would be grinding to me. Because I have no other options.

Here you have options.

Vayne.8563:

Bernie.8674:

Vayne.8563:

Silk isn’t an ascended mat. And you certainly don’t have to run dungeons for silk.

It’s effectively an ascended mat because you need 300 scraps of it for one bolt of damask. Damask is required for all ascended pieces. I have ascended mats coming out my ears. The limiting factor in my obtaining a full ascended set right now is the silk. Honestly, when most of us say that we’re required to grind for ascended gear, silk acquisition is at the heart of that grind.

Right but here’s the deal with silk. You make gold doing everything in this game. You can farm Orr or Silk, or the Silverwastes, or Frostgorge, or run dungeons. You can get silk from salvaging any 80th level cloth armor drop which you can get anywhere in the game, even from doing jumping puzzles.

The concept of grind was meant that you had to do one thing. I don’t have to do one thing to get silk. I can play the TP (if I were any good at it) and make enough gold to buy all the silk I need from the TP and some people do. I can run the Silverwastes and get a ton of silk which is why silk prices went so far down until recently. I was buying silk at 4 gold a stack at one point.

I can get 4 gold quite easily playing the game. If your focus is on the silk itself, and that’s all your doing, grinding silk, that’s a mental thing.

But if I’m playing the game and eventually I get what I need to buy the silk I didn’t incidentally pick up, I wouldn’t qualify it as grind.

But your definition anything you have to do repeatedly is grind, even if you would get it anyway just by playing.

If you stayed in Queensdale long enough because that’s what you’d like, as a level 80 character you’d be getting silk along the way.

that definition of grind is the problem. liadri mini isnt a grind, even though only have one source for the item.

Logging into the game … biggest grind ever. I do it everyday and it never changes.

EDIT: btw they reward for that too now

Coffee.7058:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.

Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.

The world boss train is still run too.

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.

Are you married?

I can see the scene, a few years after the marriage:

Vayne: “You know dear, I don’t think we’re married”

Partner: “What?!”

Vayne: “Our marriage was years ago, you can’t expect me to remember what I said that day”.

Partner: “We recorded it! You can watch right here!”

Vayne: “Still, I was just saying an intention, not necessarily what I was going to do.”

Partner: “You swore it!”

Vayne: “Maybe. But when I said ‘I do’, did I write that myself? Or did I read what someone else had written? You cannot hold me accountable for something I said that someone else had written. So, we’re not married. Bye.”

Nice hyperbole, but it doesn’t work like that in business. And anyone that has any experience would know it.

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department. They are written and checked over, but it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they delved into every little nuance of every little word before it was read by the people writing it.

Anet marketing comes up with a promo, people READ the promo. What are the odds that at that time Colin sat down and had a deep discussion about what was meant by each line. Fans pour over this stuff like it’s some sort of holy writ. Developers sit down and say, yeah that sounds good, we’ll go with that. It’s really silly to think that they have deep discussions about every word of every add.

Now five years later, Colin is required to make a statement. He makes a statement. Do you think he tracked down the people who wrote it and asked what they meant?

Your attempt at humor is not really helpful to the conversation. Even, in the unlikely circumstance that Colin did have that conversation, do you now how many conversations he’s had since then.

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

You’re either conveniently forgetting it, or never saw those videos in the first place. Either way, it doesn’t make you right.

So you’re basically saying that we are right and you are wrong, that what is written in the manifesto might not even be written by Colin himself and is therefor irrelevant when Colin himself (the director of GW2 and who has the final say on core design principles such as the no-grind philosophy) said that his no-grind philosophy is about gear grind.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.

Are you married?

I can see the scene, a few years after the marriage:

Vayne: “You know dear, I don’t think we’re married”

Partner: “What?!”

Vayne: “Our marriage was years ago, you can’t expect me to remember what I said that day”.

Partner: “We recorded it! You can watch right here!”

Vayne: “Still, I was just saying an intention, not necessarily what I was going to do.”

Partner: “You swore it!”

Vayne: “Maybe. But when I said ‘I do’, did I write that myself? Or did I read what someone else had written? You cannot hold me accountable for something I said that someone else had written. So, we’re not married. Bye.”

Nice hyperbole, but it doesn’t work like that in business. And anyone that has any experience would know it.

Promos are written by the writers or the advertising department. They are written and checked over, but it’s HIGHLY unlikely that they delved into every little nuance of every little word before it was read by the people writing it.

Anet marketing comes up with a promo, people READ the promo. What are the odds that at that time Colin sat down and had a deep discussion about what was meant by each line. Fans pour over this stuff like it’s some sort of holy writ. Developers sit down and say, yeah that sounds good, we’ll go with that. It’s really silly to think that they have deep discussions about every word of every add.

Now five years later, Colin is required to make a statement. He makes a statement. Do you think he tracked down the people who wrote it and asked what they meant?

Your attempt at humor is not really helpful to the conversation. Even, in the unlikely circumstance that Colin did have that conversation, do you now how many conversations he’s had since then.

No, I’d rather go with what Anet was saying at that time at conventions around the world. I remember what was said and I’m sure other people do.

You’re either conveniently forgetting it, or never saw those videos in the first place. Either way, it doesn’t make you right.

So you’re basically saying that we are right and you are wrong, that what is written in the manifesto might not even be written by Colin himself and is therefor irrelevant when Colin himself (the director of GW2 and who has the final say on core design principles such as the no-grind philosophy) said that his no-grind philosophy is about gear grind.

Nope, I’m saying I’m an editor by profession and I know how to read English and I can look at things with years of preconceptions because I was trained to. If you look at the words of the manifesto, they bear out what I’m saying and they don’t bear out what you’re saying.

But more to the point, at the time of the manifesto, there were numerous convention appearances by Anet, where Anet devs said EXACTLY what they meant.

So I’m saying my understanding of the manifesto comes from a combination of the actual words of the manifesto combined with what the devs said exhaustively at the time.

Surely if I misunderstood the manifesto, the stuff the devs were talking about at the time would have cleared up any misunderstanding.

I’m not sure what’s so hard to understand. After the manifesto appeared there were panels at PAX and at Gamescon and other places where we learned, very specifically, what was meant in the manifesto.

They referred to the manifesto back then when they had those panels and what they meant.

I’m taking them at their word then, because they certainly had a better idea of what they meant then. I’m sure they didn’t expect that document to be dissected five years later after so much time had passed. I’m sure they aren’t thinking about it every second of every day like some fans are.

So the information that was around at that time in quantity is what I base my interpretation of the manifesto on.

Not single line quotes five years later. Are you saying that a single line five years later is worth more than several convention panels worth of clarification?

Bernie.8674:

pdavis.8031:

Bernie.8674:

And you gathered the requisite silk well after the change as well? Without any grinding?

Most of it yeah. Bought what I could when I could, but gathered a very large portion of it just playing and doing what I wanted to.

So you bought what you could using whatever money you gathered exclusively on your new character before you were expected to dump 80 gold on traits and 300 gold on a commander tag, right?

pdavis.8031:

For my second set though, I choose to do Silverwastes. Not only because it’s an awesome for silk gathering, but I really do enjoy the event. I love organizing the map, taxiing people in, and collecting massive amounts of loot and monies. Lots of rares available which I toss in the forge. I’ve gotten quite a few exotics, and an ascended chest from this. It’s awesome! For me the extra silk is a nice side effect for doing what I enjoy. If I felt that I needed to do Silverwastes in order to get any silk at all, then it would become a grind. As it is, if I am having fun, and collecting along the way, it’s a win.

And for your second set you chose to grind. If map hopping through Silverwastes via megaserver were an immersive experience for me I probably wouldn’t mind doing it either. Unfortunately after my first three hours in there, it became an absolute borefest.

No one is disputing that you can get ascended gear after the change. The dispute is over whether you have to grind for it or not. “Most” of it wasn’t grinded. None of mine is grinded either. After my next piece I’ll be able to claim that “most” of my set isn’t grinded. Grinding the rest of the set is still going to be grinding. I’m doing mine without grind, and I’m only half way through after 10 months. Why? Because I enjoy variety. I don’t want to treat a game like a stint on the assembly line.

The character in question was grandfathered in through the changes to the trait system. I already had all the traits. Same with my current character I’m working on ascended for. Also never really card to have a tag, although i recently been considering it, but not it a hurry to do so.

As far as the time comment, do you need ascended gear to have fun? Or be able to access certain content? High level fractals yes, but that’s a very small portion of the game. So you can enkpy 99.999% of what gold wars 2 has to offer.

Calculate the cost for a full set of ascended armor. If you think that’s acceptable good for you. If you think it’s excessive I agree with you.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Calculate the cost for a full set of ascended armor. If you think that’s acceptable good for you. If you think it’s excessive I agree with you.

I agree…it’s excessive. The only saving grace is that I don’t feel like I need it…but yes, I never liked how ascended gear was implemented.

Vayne.8563:

Nope, I’m saying I’m an editor by profession and I know how to read English and I can look at things with years of preconceptions because I was trained to. If you look at the words of the manifesto, they bear out what I’m saying and they don’t bear out what you’re saying.

Cool story. You don’t have to be an English editor to understand the manifesto or Colin’s words though.

Colin’s words overrule the words written in the manifesto. His word is the word of god so to speak.

And the fact of the matter is that Colin’s words don’t even contradict the manifesto. The manifesto doesn’t exclude gear grind from the philosophy. So this entire discussion is completely irrelevant as Colin himself said that gear grind is also part of their no-grind philosophy.

Tell me Vayne, since you studied the manifesto and everything Anet did so perfectly and you remember it so vividly, did the manifesto or Anet ever say that gear grind specifically is NOT included in the no-grind philosophy? I didn’t think so.

The rest of your post is therefor quite frankly irrelevant (hence I edited it out).

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, I’m saying I’m an editor by profession and I know how to read English and I can look at things with years of preconceptions because I was trained to. If you look at the words of the manifesto, they bear out what I’m saying and they don’t bear out what you’re saying.

Cool story. You don’t have to be an English editor to understand the manifesto or Colin’s words though.

Colin’s words overrule the words written in the manifesto. His word is the word of god so to speak.

And the fact of the matter is that Colin’s words don’t even contradict the manifesto. The manifesto doesn’t exclude gear grind from the philosophy. So this entire discussion is completely irrelevant as Colin himself said that gear grind is also part of their no-grind philosophy.

Tell me Vayne, since you studied the manifesto and everything Anet did so perfectly and you remember it so vividly, did the manifesto or Anet ever say that gear grind specifically is NOT included in the no-grind philosophy? I didn’t think so.

The rest of your post is therefor quite frankly irrelevant (hence I edited it out).

So you discount every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time about the manifesto. k, then.

We can let each person reading decide if that makes sense or not.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Calculate the cost for a full set of ascended armor. If you think that’s acceptable good for you. If you think it’s excessive I agree with you.

I couldn’t agree more. I’m currently working on a light set(one piece done so far! lol) and it is so expensive. I really shouldn’t have started with light armor when my “mains” wear medium… haha. I don’t plan on crafting med/heavy after this unless future content requires ascended.

There are a couple different interviews back from 2012(before release) where Mike O’brien talks about not having grind to get the best gear. If people are to grind it is for only cosmetics.

Fernling.1729:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Calculate the cost for a full set of ascended armor. If you think that’s acceptable good for you. If you think it’s excessive I agree with you.

I couldn’t agree more. I’m currently working on a light set(one piece done so far! lol) and it is so expensive. I really shouldn’t have started with light armor when my “mains” wear medium… haha. I don’t plan on crafting med/heavy after this unless future content requires ascended.

Perhaps an expansion in the future will require ascended gear as a means to increase challenge and busy work.

Vayne.8563:

So you discount every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time about the manifesto. k, then.

We can let each person reading decide if that makes sense or not.

It doesn’t make any sense.

And it’s exactly what you are doing.

You love to dodge this, so I’ll mention it again – you have no proof of what you are talking about. Your “every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time” supporting your claims has never been given a link. And do you know why? Because it doesn’t exist.

What does exist is the Manifesto. What does exist is the written Manifesto, where ArenaNet talks about grinding for rewards, and never about grinding to level up.

The “I’m an editor so I know what I’m talking about” claim is the kind of assumption you were so heavily maligning some posts ago. The evidence, meanwhile, proves you wrong.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

So you discount every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time about the manifesto. k, then.

We can let each person reading decide if that makes sense or not.

It doesn’t make any sense.

And it’s exactly what you are doing.

You love to dodge this, so I’ll mention it again – you have no proof of what you are talking about. Your “every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time” supporting your claims has never been given a link. And do you know why? Because it doesn’t exist.

What does exist is the Manifesto. What does exist is the written Manifesto, where ArenaNet talks about grinding for rewards, and never about grinding to level up.

The “I’m an editor so I know what I’m talking about” claim is the kind of assumption you were so heavily maligning some posts ago. The evidence, meanwhile, proves you wrong.

I’m sure other people can back me up that that was what was said. Me not providing a link because I don’t want to troll through countless videos made four years ago does not equate something not being said. In fact there are many many times in the past were I didn’t bother looking for a link the people denied were true and someone else provided the link.

And you know, it matters not even a jot whether you personally believe it or not, it happened.

But four year old videos are harder to dig up than five minute old quotes. I spent enough of my life having to research for professional purposes so that doing so in my free time doesn’t appeal to me.

People DO remember, and I’m not alone and if people really care they can look for the original games con and pax panels, I’m sure they’re up somewhere.

But me not wanting to troll through old videos doesn’t mean something didn’t happen. Whether you believe it or not is competely 100% irrelevant to it happening.

Vayne.8563:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Vayne.8563:

Nope, I’m saying I’m an editor by profession and I know how to read English and I can look at things with years of preconceptions because I was trained to. If you look at the words of the manifesto, they bear out what I’m saying and they don’t bear out what you’re saying.

Cool story. You don’t have to be an English editor to understand the manifesto or Colin’s words though.

Colin’s words overrule the words written in the manifesto. His word is the word of god so to speak.

And the fact of the matter is that Colin’s words don’t even contradict the manifesto. The manifesto doesn’t exclude gear grind from the philosophy. So this entire discussion is completely irrelevant as Colin himself said that gear grind is also part of their no-grind philosophy.

Tell me Vayne, since you studied the manifesto and everything Anet did so perfectly and you remember it so vividly, did the manifesto or Anet ever say that gear grind specifically is NOT included in the no-grind philosophy? I didn’t think so.

The rest of your post is therefor quite frankly irrelevant (hence I edited it out).

So you discount every single thing said at numerous conventions at the time about the manifesto. k, then.

We can let each person reading decide if that makes sense or not.

Did you even read my entire post? I’m not discounting anything. I don’t need to, because the manifesto and what Colin said don’t contradict each other.

You on the other hand are discounting Colin’s word for whatever reason. We’ll let each person reading our convo decide if that makes sense or not.

Vayne.8563:

I’m sure other people can back me up that that was what was said. Me not providing a link because I don’t want to troll through countless videos made four years ago does not equate something not being said.

You know, “every single thing said at numerous conventions” would arguably be easier to find than that. In the end, you have zero evidence. All you have are assumptions – “I’m sure other people can back me up”, “most reasonable people agree with me”, “I know what I’m talking about because I’m an editor”… All those are worth nothing. As a certain someone said:

Vayne.8563:

I gave you specifics you ignore them. You gave me assumptions and refuse to acknowledge they are assumptions.

So, sorry Vayne. You’re wrong. The Manifesto is a lie, as has been proved in this topic by specifics. Your assumptions are not refuting anything.

Guys honest question: why are we still replying to Vayne?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Guys honest question: why are we still replying to Vayne?

Because that’s half the fun of this topic! :D

Because without him the discussion would have died a long time ago – ironically, if you have a topic everyone agrees with, it tends to disappear faster than something with more controversies. And keeping this at the top of the forum helps to make people – both players and developers – remember how grindy GW2 is.

You’re right Test. But this horse has been beaten to death over and over and it doesn’t seem like Vayne wants to listen to reason.

I have another topic to discuss about regarding grind:

Would you guys be okay with grind if the content you’re grinding was more difficult, engaging or interesting? People seem to enjoy grinding the bejesus out of the Silverwastes map. Could it be because the Silverwastes is a more challenging map that also has a purpose and a bit of variety to it? I think so.

I personally don’t think GW2 is more grindy than other MMOs, but it feels like GW2 is more grindy because GW2’s content is limited, stale, predictable and too easy. What do you think?