Guild Wars 2

TheDaiBish.9735:

People aren’t taking into consideration everything they’re working on alongside this

A lot of the arguments are “well, x boss in y dungeon does z, which makes it harder.”

However, remember the devs will be balancing fights around the fact that you can’t waypoint zerg anymore.

I know they’ve said that but based on what Colin said waypoint zerging wasn’t intended in the first place therefore the encounters as they are were not balanced with that in mind.

TheDaiBish.9735:

A lot of the arguments are “well, x boss in y dungeon does z, which makes it harder.”

However, remember the devs will be balancing fights around the fact that you can’t waypoint zerg anymore. Given their statement that they’ll be nerfing, and then reviewing, increasing difficulty as necessary (phase 2), makes it sound like they’ll be slightly under-tuning fights at first and gradually building up.

This means reviewing 1HKO, and ridiculous AoE spam, surely?

One of the most recent 1HKO mechanics introduced in a dungeon? Jade Maw, from the Fractals.

They clearly don’t think 1HKOs are as big of a problem as their players do.

And the devs specifically stated that waypoint zerging was never an intended function of dungeons….meaning that they balanced encounters without taking the zerg effect into account. So they thought the game’s encounters were fine before this. That doesn’t fill me with much confidence.

No-one dies straight away. The only way someone will get Defeated straight away is if they get Downed 5 times in one minute. After a minute, one point goes away.

So, for example, you get Downed 3 times (50% health), but don’t get Downed for another minute, the Downed health then goes up to 75%.

Coinciding with point one, because the fight mechanics are going to be balanced around not way-point zerging, this could potentially mean reviving allies will become easier.

After the fight then, you just wait for the DP to wear off.

These mechanics don’t come into play with a waypoint zerg, anyways. You’d be resurrected with max Death Penalty, and would need to last at least one minute before a single notch vanishes. If they’re surviving that long, it’s not that much of a “waypoint zerg”, it’s more of a party reorganization.

Both of these points are a case of ‘wait and see’.

If it was just a case of ‘well, you can’t res at way-point anymore’, I’d be agreeing with the lot of you.

But the system has the potential to be a lot more lenient than a lot of people realise (depending on how they balance encounter mechanics).

It also has the potential to be far, far worse than it is right now.

Given how the best of intentions from the devs thus far have not always led to sufficiently positive results, I think it’s natural that this idea is going to get people VERY jumpy when they’ve said nothing about how they intend to revamp dungeons.

Nothing wrong with pointing out that there’s clearly a better model out there than just saying “no waypoint zergs at all”, and if older games can come up with ways to escape this problem, then there’s no reason this game can’t.

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

People aren’t taking into consideration everything they’re working on alongside this

A lot of the arguments are “well, x boss in y dungeon does z, which makes it harder.”

However, remember the devs will be balancing fights around the fact that you can’t waypoint zerg anymore.

I know they’ve said that but based on what Colin said waypoint zerging wasn’t intended in the first place therefore the encounters as they are were not balanced with that in mind.

I have an extremely hard time believing that Subject Alpha wasn’t balanced with respawning in mind.

GoZero.9708:

I have an extremely hard time believing that Subject Alpha wasn’t balanced with respawning in mind.

I can tell you that when the only dungeon we had seen was a preview of AC, waypoint zerging was an issue that came up and was inquired about as well, with a dev(I think it even was Colin) answering that while it wasn’t a tactic they expected, they would monitor how much it would affect the difficulty of boss encounters and taking action if needed. I specifically remember a dev quote about them keeping an eye on this, which strongly implies that they had not anticipated players resorting to this kind of play to complete the content.

“LFG Arah for all paths, fully Ascended Elites only! NO NUBS”

^ what i am afraid of because i need my ARAH tokens for my legendary soon. ascended as a requirement is coming, and it will be ugly.

I disagree with this change and I think it would create more discrimination for those who are new and those builds that aren’t “ideal” enough to enter the dungeons.

The waypoint was a great thing to give more leniency to those who are tackling the dungeons for the first time as well for teams who may not have the right “mixture” of builds to complete the dungeon smoothly.

Think about it, if this change happens, some classes would dream of being invited in a group and you can no longer use the dungeon as way try new builds since everyone will be expecting to play a particular instead.

I don’t understand the meaning of this change, if you have people that play bad and die- they already get a penalty of health reduced and damaged armor.
If they play REALLY BADLY just kick them off the team.
Every now and then you are always going to have one player that may play badly or lag!, but whatever they do will also contribute to completing the dungeon (especially the time put in), its a team effort.

I’m just wondering how Anet will handle the drama if they implement new dungeons and tweak after this change. If we have dungeons that end up too hard, how long would we have to wait for patches to balance these out since they sooooooo busy with the upcoming features they already working to implement.

If they are going to do this, they should at least make all classes are balanced so we all have equal standing in completing it (cough ENGINEER*cough*).
I will also be expecting a really good dungeon revamp.
At the end of the day, as a casual gamer, if I wanna play my engineer, I should be able to do so at ease without the profession politics and “experienced only” bulls**t.

ASB.4295:

GoZero.9708:

I have an extremely hard time believing that Subject Alpha wasn’t balanced with respawning in mind.

I can tell you that when the only dungeon we had seen was a preview of AC, waypoint zerging was an issue that came up and was inquired about as well, with a dev(I think it even was Colin) answering that while it wasn’t a tactic they expected, they would monitor how much it would affect the difficulty of boss encounters and taking action if needed. I specifically remember a dev quote about them keeping an eye on this, which strongly implies that they had not anticipated players resorting to this kind of play to complete the content.

Any boss that can kill you in three to four giant as hell AoE hits that are spammed over an increasingly small map with an absurd health pool was a. designed with respawning at waypoints in mind (most of the Subject Alpha fights take place directly after a waypoint) or b. designed by somebody who did not understand that not every class has perma-swiftness and vigor, teleports or flashes, and huge range. I do not believe for a second that respawning was “unintended gameplay” just because of how irrational it is when taking Subject Alpha into account.

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

First week in Cof p2 when this comes will be hilarious.

ye cause cof 2 is soooo hard ( rolls eyes)
it never was a waypoint zerg befor so why would it be now?
its just a dps race

infrequentia.3465:

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

First week in Cof p2 when this comes will be hilarious.

ye cause cof 2 is soooo hard ( rolls eyes)
it never was a waypoint zerg befor so why would it be now?
its just a dps race

Cause im not warrior, the end.

GoZero.9708:

ASB.4295:

GoZero.9708:

I have an extremely hard time believing that Subject Alpha wasn’t balanced with respawning in mind.

I can tell you that when the only dungeon we had seen was a preview of AC, waypoint zerging was an issue that came up and was inquired about as well, with a dev(I think it even was Colin) answering that while it wasn’t a tactic they expected, they would monitor how much it would affect the difficulty of boss encounters and taking action if needed. I specifically remember a dev quote about them keeping an eye on this, which strongly implies that they had not anticipated players resorting to this kind of play to complete the content.

Any boss that can kill you in three to four giant as hell AoE hits that are spammed over an increasingly small map with an absurd health pool was a. designed with respawning at waypoints in mind (most of the Subject Alpha fights take place directly after a waypoint) or b. designed by somebody who did not understand that not every class has perma-swiftness and vigor, teleports or flashes, and huge range. I do not believe for a second that respawning was “unintended gameplay” just because of how irrational it is when taking Subject Alpha into account.

see that wp as a check point,
and subject alpha aint that hard just dodge his fire and walk( yes walk) out of the red dots. his aoe aren’t huge.
and on the top of my head i can’t even recall a wp zergfest boss. so this update changes nothing on the dungeons atm

Tken.1986:

infrequentia.3465:

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

First week in Cof p2 when this comes will be hilarious.

ye cause cof 2 is soooo hard ( rolls eyes)
it never was a waypoint zerg befor so why would it be now?
its just a dps race

Cause im not warrior, the end.

neither am i

soon, in LA or at dungeon entrance you will see map calls for group like these:

“lfxm CoF P2 level 80 /w high-end exotics, top 100 on leaderboard”

“lfxm AC P2, tanking/dps warriors only, top 50 on leaderboard”

Sounds like alot of you are whining about dungeons being more difficult.

And all of you crying about “classit” groups, start your own group then ,if that is an issue.
Also blame the “elite status” on ppl who (for better or worse suck) and have given bad impressions on these “elite” players.

Just last night I was running cof path 1 and for the first time ever running that path, it took my group forever to kill that boss, so you can not blame ppl for wanting to take advantage of a type of gear check, to complete dungeons easier.

Zephyr Lee.2491:

Sounds like alot of you are whining about dungeons being more difficult.

And all of you crying about “classit” groups, start your own group then ,if that is an issue.
Also blame the “elite status” on ppl who (for better or worse suck) and have given bad impressions on these “elite” players.

Just last night I was running cof path 1 and for the first time ever running that path, it took my group forever to kill that boss, so you can not blame ppl for wanting to take advantage of a type of gear check, to complete dungeons easier.

where is the like button when you need it.

I think it’s a bad idea but Anet shouldn’t add it until they can look at the dungeons and says yes this is good enough. Otherwise we have months of dungeons being too hard for the majority of players.

Is this going to apply to story mode as well? New player here, I probably would have been in AC story forever under the new system, can’t comment on the rest because I haven’t did it yet.

Humposaurus.5764:

So just don’t use pugs anymore and we’ll be fine….

Better off not using dungeons pointless to progress now, insanely stupid move..all people will do is quit out of parties..

Zephyr Lee.2491:

Sounds like alot of you are whining about dungeons being more difficult.

And all of you crying about “classit” groups, start your own group then ,if that is an issue.
Also blame the “elite status” on ppl who (for better or worse suck) and have given bad impressions on these “elite” players.

Just last night I was running cof path 1 and for the first time ever running that path, it took my group forever to kill that boss, so you can not blame ppl for wanting to take advantage of a type of gear check, to complete dungeons easier.

For one thing I hate elite players (who received this title): I know you are good, but I’m not sure if you’re nice. If I’m not good, 90% of you curse on me. So, should I respect you(s)?
I do enjoy people who have the experience and can be nice to anyone who doesn’t/not that good.

This is kind of unrelated to the topic here, but I can’t stand this attitude sorry.

Remember guys, they also said that they were going to redesign boss encounters both in and outside of dungeons.

Calsifer.6079:

Remember guys, they also said that they were going to redesign boss encounters both in and outside of dungeons.

Yes, which 99.9% of us are going to have a HUGE expectation on dungeon revamp.
Most of us on the disagree side are stating the worst possible nightmares.

We played dungeons this way in GW1 for years and years and it worked just fine. Granted we didn’t have 1-shot bosses most of the time, but hopefully that’s something they are fixing. If this single change is going to end your gaming experience, then you need to go back to GW1 and get a little training on how skilled dungeon running should go, plain and simple.

Tken.1986:

Calsifer.6079:

Remember guys, they also said that they were going to redesign boss encounters both in and outside of dungeons.

Yes, which 99.9% of us are going to have a HUGE expectation on dungeon revamp.
Most of us on the disagree side are stating the worst possible nightmares.

It would help if ANet didn’t once again trip up at going more than one or two sentences in detail on a topic. Even if this is just a basic rundown of changes coming in early 2013, it’s still a pretty big failure on their part–not the first mind you–for not going into details on things that will make their players more trustful of upcoming updates. It’s the nature of the MMO player to be fearful and skeptical of change. Here ANet has basically said “Oh we’re changing a massive part of dungeon running and we’re probably going to change a few things with the already controversial dungeons to make them less ganky at certain parts because of this and don’t worry we’re gonna do it right because we’ve never failed you before.” It’s a recipe for disaster and we’re seeing it with these 100+ post in a handful of hours.

are you freaking kidding me. Do you know how many dungeon run I do where there are people completely new? Every single one of them. Besides cof, every other dungeon run I do there are first timer who have no clue what to do.

So I’m basically have to post something like “lfg xxx, no first timer now”?

laokoko.7403:

are you freaking kidding me. Do you know how many dungeon run I do where there are people completely new? Every single one of them. Besides cof, every other dungeon run I do there are first timer who have no clue what to do.

So I’m basically have to post something like “lfg xxx, no first timer now”?

or how about you know RESSING?
only WP’s are DISABLED not RESSING.
not that hard to understand. how do you do fractals? wipe if 1 person dies?

Excellent change. As long as the devs do a good job at updating the bosses, this should lead to funnier and more strategical playing. Graveyard zerging was terrible, not only because it’s cheap by itself, but because random and out-of-nowhere OHKO attacks demanded grave zergs for the majority of players.

With more party coordenation and (hopefully) less annoying bosses, I’m hoping dungeons will get funnier.

This is certainly something that GW1 did really well, and it has been interesting to observe how the devs went too far at trying to make the sequel “too different”. It’s cool that GW2 tries to be a distinct product, but how can you make a superior/ more polished product while ignoring things learned in the past? This will only lead to a remake of the mistakes, IMO.

infrequentia.3465:

laokoko.7403:

are you freaking kidding me. Do you know how many dungeon run I do where there are people completely new? Every single one of them. Besides cof, every other dungeon run I do there are first timer who have no clue what to do.

So I’m basically have to post something like “lfg xxx, no first timer now”?

or how about you know RESSING?
only WP’s are DISABLED not RESSING.
not that hard to understand. how do you do fractals? wipe if 1 person dies?

Do you know why fractal 10 is much easier than fractal 1? Because there is no newbie.

There is certain dungeon I run because I have a jewel craft recipe which people don’t usually run. There are always newbie which are totally cluless. It get to the point where rezing them is a waste of time and is too dangerous I hope they just run back themself.

lol, not even six hours after this has been said. The rage is starting . Wait till it actually comes.

GoZero.9708:

Tken.1986:

Calsifer.6079:

Remember guys, they also said that they were going to redesign boss encounters both in and outside of dungeons.

Yes, which 99.9% of us are going to have a HUGE expectation on dungeon revamp.
Most of us on the disagree side are stating the worst possible nightmares.

It would help if ANet didn’t once again trip up at going more than one or two sentences in detail on a topic. Even if this is just a basic rundown of changes coming in early 2013, it’s still a pretty big failure on their part–not the first mind you–for not going into details on things that will make their players more trustful of upcoming updates. It’s the nature of the MMO player to be fearful and skeptical of change. Here ANet has basically said “Oh we’re changing a massive part of dungeon running and we’re probably going to change a few things with the already skeptical dungeons to make them less ganky at certain parts because of this and don’t worry we’re gonna do it right because we’ve never failed you before.” It’s a recipe for disaster and we’re seeing it with these 100+ post in a handful of hours.

I totally agree with GoZero on this one, I felt that that live stream wasn’t worth watching half the time because they didn’t flesh out any of the things that already exists and the changes. All I heard was theories with hardly any solid plan. They said they don’t want to mention anything since MMO is massive and will announce when it is solid…so they shouldn’t mention anything at all.

When they test dungeon revamp, I like to see them try with a handful of rangers and engineers.

Well, any pugs that had a chance of getting into my future dungeon groups just lost a group unless I get really impatient (or don’t have enough guildies online) and even then it’ll be selective. I’ve had enough pugs that have been idiots and I’ve tolerated them because we’ve been able to support them, but no more now….if I have people that aren’t pulling their weight, it’ll be kick and find a new player. Oh, and there will definitely be dungeons that won’t be run because the time spent vs reward received is definitely not going to be worth it.

I’m not going to hold my breath for good re-vamping of the dungeons. For the most part, I’m just sitting back for the next few months and waiting for all these waves to stop shaking the foundation of GW2 gameplay before really getting back into it. It took longer than I would have expected for GW2 to enter its growing pains stage, but it’s finally here.

Shoyoko.7309:

When they test dungeon revamp, I like to see them try with a handful of rangers and engineers.

I’d very much like to see the ANet testers do a dungeon eight times with five copies of each different class. I think it would really shed light on how balanced the classes are right now.

GoZero.9708:

Shoyoko.7309:

When they test dungeon revamp, I like to see them try with a handful of rangers and engineers.

I’d very much like to see the ANet testers do a dungeon eight times with five copies of each different class. I think it would really shed light on how balanced the classes are right now.

XDXD Ditto on that!

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

The only reason I assume this though is because he specifically mentioned waypoint zerging to be an issue,

An issue for whom? This is PvE how can it be an issue except for more uncompromising players.

“only way to beat some of the difficult encounters at the moment is to have dead players run back from nearby waypoints while players that are alive kite the mobs)”

That’s the issue.

Really so what, if a group wants to do that who does it hurt?

It’s just plain poor game design, getting rewarded for playing poorly. It just brings the game down.

You’re not catering to ‘casuals’ then, you’re catering to ‘entitled’ gamers who think that they have the right to complete the dungeon, regardless of how poorly they play.

the problem with that is that, me and my guild can run this stuff no problem smash it out no one die’s its awesome

I join a PUG and BAM im the one with the most servivabuilty and there going down like flys

no more puging for me it seems

ColinJohanson.2394:

Just to clarify, you’ll no longer be able to use waypoints when a party member is in combat inside a dungeon. This is prevent people from using waypoints to rush and kill bosses or clear areas, which is not intended game play.

All other forms of res remain unchanged.

FINALLY.

Dungeons wont be joke anymore. Finally they will be taken seriously !

I love this kitten change .) well done

You may not like this change, but after all it will make dungeons require skill. No they are joke that doesnt require any skill and when you fail doing your work, you just ress at waypoint and kill boss like nothing happend.

Usually I am used to that if group (one player or more players) fail doing their jobs at the encounter, group wipes. So the goal of the dungeon is to coordinate and concentrate as much as you can.

Dungeons at Guild Wars 2 are nothing but easy mode, It doesnt matter if one, two, or five players fail on encounter, they just run one by one to boss and beat it down. This is what you like? Noobmode? No thank you

Fully supporting this change

I better get my last two TA runs in, those vines are a real pack of kittens…

kind of cool, people might have to take their builds more seriously. Lot of classes have the ability to instant res from range, guardian signet, warrior elite banner etc. Perhaps these will be equipped more (we really only used them on lupi because the waypoint is so far away on some paths)

Only downside is might cause people to question taking that one friend that dies constantly

UnderdogSMO.9428:

the problem with that is that, me and my guild can run this stuff no problem smash it out no one die’s its awesome

I join a PUG and BAM im the one with the most servivabuilty and there going down like flys

no more puging for me it seems

And people complain that guilds are useless. They won’t be so useless if you have to join one to successfully complete dungeons.

Okay. I run AC path 2 almost every day in PUG’s and have no idea why you are ranking it up there with any of the Arah paths. My MF warrior goes melee versus the Ghost Eater no problem at all. My level 60 ranger went melee with him tonight no problem at all.

Conversely, Lupi and Alpha would turn either of those toons into so much goo…

The logic man is here to save the day yet again!

The only thing changing in dungeons is you will not be able to WP back until you all wipe.

This only means you can’t res and go back to the fight over and over to win.

You can res your team on teh ground mid battle as normal.

This promotes strategy rather than massing buttons to whittle a massive hP bar down.

“Pull the boss away from injured members and res them for once you unskilled imbeciles!” is what Anet is telling us. If you can’t do some thing as simple as that, then you have no business in a team environment. We have been doing it since GW 1 in Hard mode VQs.

Lucky.4263:

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

morrolan.9608:

TheDaiBish.9735:

The only reason I assume this though is because he specifically mentioned waypoint zerging to be an issue,

An issue for whom? This is PvE how can it be an issue except for more uncompromising players.

“only way to beat some of the difficult encounters at the moment is to have dead players run back from nearby waypoints while players that are alive kite the mobs)”

That’s the issue.

Really so what, if a group wants to do that who does it hurt?

It’s just plain poor game design, getting rewarded for playing poorly. It just brings the game down.

You’re not catering to ‘casuals’ then, you’re catering to ‘entitled’ gamers who think that they have the right to complete the dungeon, regardless of how poorly they play.

Ex A: AC P2 defending charr fixing mortars. Ghost spawn: ele, necro, ranger. Me: huddle in feedle positions and take kitten beating
Ex B: CoF defending asura Me: huddle in feedle position and take kitten beating, respawn rinse and repeat.

…. etc

so yes i feel i am “entitled” to a reward for getting my kitten handed to me on a silver platter… im not the best player but i understand my class and how to play it, in both of those encounters i listed none of that matters.

Amen! Why Anet would cater to elitist players, is beyond me. People die in dungeons, big kittening deal, happens all the time. Yes, I do deserve a reward like anyone else that goes through the hell of those dungeons, dying or not. With my unrelenting DR now on my second character, and now this bull kitten, I just don’t know how much more of Anet’s crap I can take. This was a great game before the mid November patch.

What happend to the " you play the game the way you want"….

if this goes through, i just hope they change the instances first and them make the waypoint change.

I wouldn’t complain if all the dungeon is balanced in length or difficulty. But it’s not.

I was forced to do hotw because I want to get rabid gear for my necromancer. You know the boss in that dungeon take 10 minutes. The whole cof path 1 don’t even take 10 minutes.

And I suppose if they nerf the other dungeon down to cof level. The elitist will start to complain about no challenge.

Hoo boy, looks like we got quite a big debate on our hands. On one hand, you have the inexperienced whiners who are arguing that preventing way point ressing while at least one person is in combat will cause most explorable paths to be impossible to win without “the dream team” (Warriors, Guardians, and 1-2 Mesmers). On the other hand, you have the experienced players who have run the dungeons a few too many times to the point of where they could run them one-handed and still breeze through it. Clearly this change in dungeon concept will raise the difficulty level, however, as I will show in the coming paragraphs, the change will raise the difficulty by a small amount and nowhere near as badly as most people are claiming. If you only read one post in this thread, make it this one (It probably will get ignored, though). Moving forward…

I’m going to start off by explaining in detail just what this change means to the dungeon process. Let’s set up the scenario for a fairly tricky boss, Subject Alpha, First Phase. Now, as it stands right now, Subject Alpha is actually harder than he should be due to a bug with rolling while auto-attack chaining (This NEEDS to be fixed, I cannot stress that enough, not just for this fight either), but, aside from that, it’s still fairly easy to dodge his circles of doom on a consistent basis. The main change occurs when someone makes a mistake and fails to dodge. Normally, the other four teammates will ignore that person due to the risk of being downed as well, but also because the penalty for allowing that person to die is almost non-existent. The person dies, respawns a few seconds later, and runs back to the fight. With this change, when that person goes down, you still have the same risk of also being downed while trying to res them, but now the death penalty for the party has increased significantly. What does this change to how you fight “tough” bosses? This change sets the priority of keeping all of your team alive or you further risk wiping and having to redo the boss, which will cause players to be more conscious of eachother. Now, when someone goes down, the rest of the party should be closer to eachother in order to pick them up as fast as possible. A team of four can revive a person for almost dead in 2.5 seconds and a dead person in 5 seconds while in combat. Subject Alpha First Phase alternates attacks every 4-6 seconds (Numbers may be off slightly). The result is increased difficulty for parties that “carry” someone who constantly dies and parties that refuse to prioritize keeping others alive, which is an easy enough task when people prioritize it.

Now that the concept has been explained, let’s take a look at another argument made, the value of those non-Warrior/Guardian/Mesmer people. Let’s be reasonable here, the amount of builds that can work on those three classes far outnumber the builds that the other five can use. The issue comes from people playing these classes with completely inappropriate equipment/skills/traits, such as a Thief in full berserker gear using a ranged weapon, often with three to four signets in tow. That one is my favorite because they use it for “insane dps”, but not only do they die in no time at all, and they know this, which is why they use a short bow or pistol main hand, but these weapons both have horrible dps, even with full berserker gear which completely invalidates the reason they are using the berserker gear in the first place! People would love thieves in dungeons if most of them went for a carrion/emerald hybrid poison sharing thief with maybe shadow refuge on standby. Or take the large amount of three-signet Rangers that I’ve been seeing lately. Almost every signet is a horrible choice for team play because there are so many good alternatives, and this goes for every class. One good exception in this case is the Signet of Stone. Ordinarily, it gives minor protection and when used, gives your pet six seconds of no damage from attacks. Combined with the grandmaster trait, you can also have six seconds of no damage. When paired with Quickening Zephyr, you can revive anyone in five seconds, even under moderately damaging enemy attacks, without fear of being downed yourself! It’s not a problem of singling out other classes, it’s the problem of so many people that don’t even care about improving their play style versus the classes that can’t use every play style imaginable to breeze through PvE.

((CONTINUED))

(Wow, that’s a big wall of text!)

In conclusion, I’d like to briefly touch on the result of this change, the “reward versus time spent and difficulty” equation. People don’t like running CM/SE/TA not only because the dungeons takes awhile, but also because the mob loot is scaled down to lower-leveled drops and the tokens can’t be converted to ecto-salvageable rares, which cuts off an average of 60 silver extra for run completion. Hopefully this is revisited as well.

POWER POINTS:
-The change makes saving people a priority again
-Saving people isn’t hard at all if the whole team pitches in
-People hate other people that don’t care about team-friendly builds and don’t like carrying dead weight
-Fix that kitten rolling/auto attack chain bug
-Better loot with focus on CM/SE/TA
-Don’t listen to people overreacting ANet!

Lord Yoshi.6738:

POWER POINTS:
-The change makes saving people a priority again
-Saving people isn’t hard at all if the whole team pitches in
-People hate other people that don’t care about team-friendly builds and don’t like carrying dead weight
-Fix that kitten rolling/auto attack chain bug
-Better loot with focus on CM/SE/TA
-Don’t listen to people overreacting ANet!

Well, lo and behold, someone actually gets that the changes aren’t catering to the elitists and such, but to people who work well together.

lekyii.9856:

What happend to the " you play the game the way you want"….

Tell me, for the pve players that love coordenated, challenging pve content, wherecan they find it? In dungeons. And for those that don’t like challenging, coordenated content?You have general PvE for that. That’s probably what they meant with “play the game you want”: you pick your favourite format, and ignore the formats that are not designed to your tastes.

Also, that statement should not be abused. There’s a large difference between players wanting to do a specific type of content, and of players wanting to mindless grind a specific type of content that was not meant to be mindlessly grinded.

Lord Yoshi.6738:

POWER POINTS:
-The change makes saving people a priority again
-Saving people isn’t hard at all if the whole team pitches in
-People hate other people that don’t care about team-friendly builds and don’t like carrying dead weight
-Fix that kitten rolling/auto attack chain bug
-Better loot with focus on CM/SE/TA
-Don’t listen to people overreacting ANet!

-The change makes saving people a priority again — it’s never been a priority not because of Waypoints but because it’s a very slow and risky process. Not only does reviving tend to be “sticky” (can’t immediately dodge out of the way if a risk presents itself) but it also takes much longer while in combat because being in combat apparently makes stopping in your tracks to heal somebody slower
-Saving people isn’t hard at all if the whole team pitches in — but it’s hard to stop and discuss the best strategy for dynamic situations like saving the dead without voice support. Please don’t mention third party programs because those are not viable solutions. It’s a death sentence to stop for a moment when fighting Subject Alpha or Lupi yet the only thing many players can do to communicate is exactly that so that they can type out their messages.
-People hate other people that don’t care about team-friendly builds and don’t like carrying dead weight — And this change improves that how? It just anchors the dead weight instead of letting it flow in and out as they fail.
-Fix that kitten rolling/auto attack chain bug — there a few auto attack bugs, which one are you talking about?
-Better loot with focus on CM/SE/TA — Well yes. Aside from the short length of CoF Path 1, dungeons aren’t rewarding enough to justify the time spent especially when bogged down by the RNG gods.
-Don’t listen to people overreacting ANet — Yes because MMO developers are infallible with their updates. See: NGE.

As a note, I object to this because I fear it will estrange people trying to get into dungeons. Every person I see here mocking people for not being pro enough to handle it are people who already know the dungeons in and out and have dedicated teams to kick dungeon butt with. For everybody else though it’ll just make dungeons more inaccessible to the casual player and make pugging even more troublesome. At the moment, this works in Fractals of the Mist due to the level-based climb that it involves people becoming more and more skilled as the difficulty rises. With explorable dungeons, the difficulty is upfront and hits you immediately without giving you space to learn how to do the dungeons.

GoZero.9708:

Stuff

You missed a whole mountain of text explanation in my post above that, but I’ll be brief in your counter-points.
-Four players can completely revive a dead person while in combat in around 5 seconds and a downed player with a sliver of hp left in around 2.5 seconds. Pretty sure those numbers are accurate but I haven’t precisely timed it.
-Everyone will know that saving people is the priority. You come up with a game plan before you even engage the boss so you know what to do for special situations.
-Before, dead weight costed the party time. With the change, they may cause more time.
-https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Dodge-roll-randomly-fails-video-included/
-NGE?

I have tried to write this post about 7 times now, Lets give it another try, gonna go KISS this time.

The solution and the problem don’t align.

Death Zerging isn’t the problem.
Respawning in the middle of a fight isn’t a problem.

A fight that is easier with naked people running in circles. That’s the problem.
Make the fight require something other than running in a circle naked. (Maybe this means making it easier).

A simple method though: those riflemen in CM seem pretty kitten good at making my party move only when necessary. (a little /too/ well when in big numbers though!)

But, can I now make a comment on what has been said above.
If you can legitimately complete any/all of these encounters without any waypoint respawns, you guys are going to be bored out of your BRAINS after they change them to make it a more realistic prospect for those that currently do need the occasional waypoint.

I run AC on my ele so many times its not even funny with a not great laptop to boot. I die only a few times per run (except with bad teams with Detha or the asuran guy and his burrows part) because I got caught by Kohler or was at a bad spot.

Most fights I’m now employing S/F instead of D/D or staff. As I have 3 block/ invulnerabilities with cantrips or arcane shield. Ele is full of anti CC protections and whatnot. With the right traits, I can get my cantrips to last longer or my Obsidian Flesh to last longer and get in and get others out or myself out.

So i should just stop leveling an engineer then?