Not full Holy Trinity, but vary proffs?

Not full Holy Trinity, but vary proffs?

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Posted by: krooton.8035

krooton.8035

So I have seen plenty of “Warr/Guard OP” “Only ever need 1 Ele” “Ranger/Engi are trash” types of posts.

It got me thinking about profession balance, and the perceived lack thereof. What if you could take some aspects of the Holy Trinity, but still create variation between the professions?

I split aspects of the game in to 3 sub sections.

Dealing damage – DPS or Condition
Mitigating damage – Tankiness or Control
Healing damage – Heal or Sustain

To explain the differences between Heal and Sustain, Heals are larger, have cooldowns, and can affect your allies, whereas sustain tends to be smaller, more constant heals just for yourself.

I then re-jigged the stats of each profession to fall in to the above.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/842/ywpbg.jpg

What this now does is give each profession a primary and secondary aspect that they excel at.

Warriors can deal large amount of flat damage, take a good amount of damage, are capable at sustaining and controlling the flow of battle, but little in terms of condition, and are terrible at healing.

Guardians are bottom of the pack DPS-wise, but can tank and heal for England. Conditions give them a bit of extra damage, and their control and sustain are weak.

Engi becomes the medium-armor tank option, but by way of kits/shields/exoskeletons, but is very balanced in all areas, adapting to the situation as needed (kinda like how Druid worked in WoW).

Ranger becomes about heavy control of the battle-field, along with impressive heals.

Thief is like the warrior, but sacrificing tankiness for condition damage.

Ele is the main damage dealer for the light armor crew, can heal well, but takes hits like a wet tissue.

Mes still deals significant damage, but is mainly about control.

Necros condition their way to glory, whilst having the highest sustain out of anyone.

This gives each armor class almost their own mini trinity.

Heavy is great at tanking (makes sense), can dish out damage and heal. Doesn’t offer much in the way of strategy though.

Medium armor gets the most balanced choice, with a tanky option, a damage option, or a support/control/heal option.

Lights are mainly damage focused, but can still offer decent healing and control.

Obviously, for this to work, things would need to be tweaked, like making condition damage more viable in PvE, and working control a bit differently (professions that excel at applying control, should also excel at removing them) making the control aspect desirable for both offensive and defensive purposes.

So rather than your normal trinity set up that pigeon-holes proffs/classes in to roles, this is a middle-ground between it and the current jack of all trades with a single unique mechanic set-up.

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Posted by: wouw.5837

wouw.5837

Warriors are bad at healing, but good at support, Guardians can have huge DPS.

The ‘trinity’ is Damage, Control, Support

Every class can do dmg (just power or condi dmg), can control (cc’s) and can support (Healing, stealth, banners, buffs, etc)

Elona is Love, Elona is life.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

I personally think it’s a terrible idea since, despite your intentions, it still pigeon-holes players into playing certain professions for certain gameplay choices. Want to play a condition Warrior, or a burst Guardian? Sure, but you’re gimping yourself in terms of effectiveness.

Not only that, but then you have to design content that requires roles x, y and z. Players figure the best way to do it, and you’ll get 3 professions excluded – same as we have now. Unless they bring in dungeons that adapt the mechanics based on group composition, it improves nothing.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with the system we have now; you can have variations within each profession as to what they do. A Warrior with a Greatsword is different to a Warrior with a Hammer, for example – the former being about more damage and the latter being about more control.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: Rangersix.1754

Rangersix.1754

Obviously, for this to work, things would need to be tweaked.

To do what you want doesn’t simply need “tweaking”, it requires the game to be rebuild from the ground up.

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Posted by: FrostSpectre.4198

FrostSpectre.4198

Problem is mainly because PvE mobs lack variety at the moment, which makes other classes with less capability of burst damage less desirable…

But hopefully there’s gonna be more variety, like heavy armor-low health without Unshakable and attrition tactic mobs with hard to avoid damage fields, that would require more Control and Support to live through the engagement.

More the any character can be one of the GW2-trinity, so that more styles are used in PvE.

I’m a casual PvE adventurer, I enjoy combat, adventure and helping, but not farming.
I rarely do PvP or Hard PvE, unless it’s organized.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

The problem mainly is the lack of real defined roles. While getting rid of the holy trinity (and not really replacing it with anything else) was the cause it’s not so that you need the holy trinity. Have a look at Wolfenstein ET. That is so much fun because of all the roles and btw still allows for pug groups.
They had a ‘ammo’ role while also being DPS (Field Ops). In an MMO that would mean boosting yourself and others I guess, it had a healer (medic), it had a spy-like class that could take the identity of the enemy (and so also get into enemy bases), an engineer who had special task he could complete in a mission (blowing something up or fixing something) and the soldier who was all about special weapons (in an MMO this could be multiple classes).

So here you have a system with multiple classes / roles that really mater and help to improve the game-play. While it’s no trinity it does not even have a tank.

Another good example would be Pokemon where you have multiple classes like fire, water, rock, ice, plants, flight and so on. All with it’s own strength and weaknesses. But also no trinity this one does have tank classes but no heal classes.

It just comes to prove that in fact you can make useful roles in many different ways and it does not have to be the holy trinity, also not in an MMO. However with GW2 they removed the holy trinity (for the sake of being different) but then did not replace it very well with other useful required roles. So it became a sort of DPS only. Sure there are some flavours but when it comes to it there are not really special roles that all have there own useful tasks that you need to, together complete your mission.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

The problem mainly is the lack of real defined roles.

I don’t even think this is much of an issue.

I think the main problem is that content doesn’t require people to do anything other than damage.

Look at a game with defined class roles a la the Trinity. If the content in that game didn’t require someone to constantly be healing, or for someone to draw aggro and soak damage, then it could have all the class roles in the world, people wouldn’t bother playing the roles that aren’t needed.

What content needs to do is replace the class roles by adding roles unique to that encounter. With an open system like GW2, the content needs to get people to think “What can I bring to this fight that will get us past it?”. Content designed as such adds much more depth than having defined, required roles.

Imagine the Lover’s basic mechanic of needing to keep them away from each other (forget the actual implementation).

One group might decide to take one heavy control + sustain to keep the one busy, another with control and damage to join 3 other DPS to burst the other down as quick as possible. Another group might split into 2 equal groups and tackle both of them at the same time, while another is dedicated to taking down adds.

Even a fight as basic as the Effigy in CoF can have roles, even if everyone is DPS. One person’s role is to wipe the crystals out, while the others attack the Effigy. Tweak the crystals slightly that add a stacking debuff (say, a DoT that can’t be cleansed. Increases in intensity), and then you have a fight where a small amount of co-ordination is needed (swapping from the role of damaging the boss to crystal-clearing duty).

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

The problem mainly is the lack of real defined roles.

I don’t even think this is much of an issue.

I think the main problem is that content doesn’t require people to do anything other than damage.

Look at a game with defined class roles a la the Trinity. If the content in that game didn’t require someone to constantly be healing, or for someone to draw aggro and soak damage, then it could have all the class roles in the world, people wouldn’t bother playing the roles that aren’t needed.

What content needs to do is replace the class roles by adding roles unique to that encounter. With an open system like GW2, the content needs to get people to think “What can I bring to this fight that will get us past it?”. Content designed as such adds much more depth than having defined, required roles.

Imagine the Lover’s basic mechanic of needing to keep them away from each other (forget the actual implementation).

One group might decide to take one heavy control + sustain to keep the one busy, another with control and damage to join 3 other DPS to burst the other down as quick as possible. Another group might split into 2 equal groups and tackle both of them at the same time, while another is dedicated to taking down adds.

Even a fight as basic as the Effigy in CoF can have roles, even if everyone is DPS. One person’s role is to wipe the crystals out, while the others attack the Effigy. Tweak the crystals slightly that add a stacking debuff (say, a DoT that can’t be cleansed. Increases in intensity), and then you have a fight where a small amount of co-ordination is needed (swapping from the role of damaging the boss to crystal-clearing duty).

Yeah obviously it’s a combination of both. With my Wolfenstein ET example the engineer would be completely useless in maps that did not have anything for his class (there where a few of those levels). You need a combination. But I don’t feel that in GW2 the roles are already fine it’s just the content that is lacking. It’s both indeed the content is a bigger problem.

I mean put in a boss that damages all enemies in the room and he does huge damage but the damage does get spread over all enemies. Then a class with minions becomes required. There is also no content that requires portals or invisibility. Adding such mechanics and AI tactics would already help a lot.

If you give rangers more control over pets (stay) then you can have a 5 man dungeon with 6 levers you need to stand on requiring a ranger that puts his pet on the 6th lever.

While this is a cheap example. Putting in AI tactics and attacks that requires roles is more interesting. (like the damage spread out over enemies). Or an enemy that teleports everybody to one place and then traps everybody there and then drop a hammer on them killing everybody instantly. How to get out of that situation? Memsmer drops a portal before the attacks comes and when being teleportet by the boss people can teleport to safety. So there are for sure many content improvements that could help a lot. But then still I do find roles are not defined specific enough.

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

A very Wise man once said……


-

PvE has roles in organized groups.
Banner/Offensive Support – Warrior exclusively due to access to banners.
Might/Fury Stacker – Usually Ele with Persisting Flames and Strength Runes
Pure DPS – Usually an Ele without Persisting Flames (or with it like a Staff ele but who doesn’t focus on Might stacking as a main feature)
Reflection/Defensive Support – Reflects projectiles. Cleanses conditions. Grants stability. Guardian or Mesmer usually.
Content Specific Roleplayer – changes dependent on content. Can be another Pure DPSer. Can be another defensive support reflector. Can be a Thief for DPS+Stealth if you’re doing content that benefits more from Stealth than a 3rd FGSer or 2nd Reflector.
Why isn’t this super obvious to the community? Because in GW2 these aren’t hard roles. Everyone is expected to contribute Might and Vulnerability to the team. Even the Pure DPSers have some utility skills that can absorb projectiles or blind foes. So the lines between roles are often blurred, and in unorganized groups, the lines are completely blurred and people just hope things get handled.
But if you look at the current speed run records as well as the types of party comps the elite pve guilds use in organized casual runs, they generally fit this paradigm.
Waxing poetic, this is a pretty good thing, because it means you rarely have a single point of failure and with good teamwork you can overcome your reflection class being defeated by shifting that role on demand. The downside is that unless you deeply understand the intricacies of the game, a casual observer of a dungeon speed run won’t see all the utility skills being used, they will just see big dps and think that is everything. So instead of my above team comp they just envision teams to be, “DPS x5” which is quite unfortunate.
______________________________________

something to think about.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”. No. Absolutely not. You can blame Anet for not implementing for not making a “proper tutorial” OR blame yourself you get used to mechanics spoonfed to you.

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Posted by: VOLTCIEAGE.3029

VOLTCIEAGE.3029

we just need mobs in pve like enemies in fractal ascalon . op range dmg which stays on RANGE (mags), heavy rushers (warriors), healers(monks) etc. in this way you can take of course 5 zerkers but you will wipe many many times and more efficient will be taking healing guard or condii necro to weak enemies not only zerker warriors

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

I mean put in a boss that damages all enemies in the room and he does huge damage but the damage does get spread over all enemies. Then a class with minions becomes required. There is also no content that requires portals or invisibility. Adding such mechanics and AI tactics would already help a lot.

If you give rangers more control over pets (stay) then you can have a 5 man dungeon with 6 levers you need to stand on requiring a ranger that puts his pet on the 6th lever.

While this is a cheap example. Putting in AI tactics and attacks that requires roles is more interesting. (like the damage spread out over enemies). Or an enemy that teleports everybody to one place and then traps everybody there and then drop a hammer on them killing everybody instantly. How to get out of that situation? Memsmer drops a portal before the attacks comes and when being teleportet by the boss people can teleport to safety. So there are for sure many content improvements that could help a lot. But then still I do find roles are not defined specific enough.

Sorry, but that’s a terrible idea. While you might feel it’s interesting, I’d find it quite boring if I only had one way of doing content with no room for experimentation. The only way this could possibly be a good idea is if the dungeon had adaptable mechanics based on group composition.

Having mechanics that require you to bring a specific profession and a specific skill? That just removes all depth. Why? Because the player can’t choose how to approach and tackle the content. It removes all player agency. You want to run the piece of content with 5 friends and no-one has a Mesmer or Ranger? Well, can’t run the content then.

However, what you’re saying – having enemies that require roles – is exactly what I’m saying. I’m just saying the role isn’t dependant on class, but on build, since the role is provided by the encounter, and not a pre-defined [class] is a [role].

Taking your levers example. As well as a Ranger pet being able to trigger it, Blast Finishers can also trigger it. Or maybe you passed some rocks that you could place on it.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

So I have seen plenty of “Warr/Guard OP” “Only ever need 1 Ele” “Ranger/Engi are trash” types of posts.

It got me thinking about profession balance, and the perceived lack thereof. What if you could take some aspects of the Holy Trinity, but still create variation between the professions?

Warr/Guard are OP
Only ever need 1 Ele
Ranger/Engi are trash

That’s three post from ppl that don’t know how the game work. You don’t base modification of your game on ppl that don’t know how it work. Variation between the professions?

Robechef already gave a excellent answer to that.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Dusty Moon.4382

Dusty Moon.4382

Just like other games, the players have defined that you need zerker everywhere. The Developers already stated that other build are just as viable. If you go do some of the harder world bosses, one can see the zerker people going down easily because their builds are all dependent on DPS and not on self-sufficiency and/or mitigating damage from mobs.

Warriors and Guardians are not OP. Just learn how to play against them. Once they use all their skills in one burst they go down like a sinking rock.

As other posters have stated, people are stuck playing GW2 like other games with the trinity, which to me is trash BTW, and they need to start thinking outside the box.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”. No. Absolutely not. You can blame Anet for not implementing for not making a “proper tutorial” OR blame yourself you get used to mechanics spoonfed to you.

Most people focus on DPS and it works just fine for them. But of course it’s not the fault of the game / Anet.. No it’s the players fault for.. yeah for what really?

For using mechanics they get spoonfed on?. Those mechanics (you talk abour.. dps dps dps) do not work if you really have multiple required! classes.

(edited by Devata.6589)

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Posted by: hendo.1940

hendo.1940

Ele isn’t bad at healing, stop spreading lies, nerds.

Real proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKivyalGKjU

Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

I mean put in a boss that damages all enemies in the room and he does huge damage but the damage does get spread over all enemies. Then a class with minions becomes required. There is also no content that requires portals or invisibility. Adding such mechanics and AI tactics would already help a lot.

If you give rangers more control over pets (stay) then you can have a 5 man dungeon with 6 levers you need to stand on requiring a ranger that puts his pet on the 6th lever.

While this is a cheap example. Putting in AI tactics and attacks that requires roles is more interesting. (like the damage spread out over enemies). Or an enemy that teleports everybody to one place and then traps everybody there and then drop a hammer on them killing everybody instantly. How to get out of that situation? Memsmer drops a portal before the attacks comes and when being teleportet by the boss people can teleport to safety. So there are for sure many content improvements that could help a lot. But then still I do find roles are not defined specific enough.

Sorry, but that’s a terrible idea. While you might feel it’s interesting, I’d find it quite boring if I only had one way of doing content with no room for experimentation. The only way this could possibly be a good idea is if the dungeon had adaptable mechanics based on group composition.

Having mechanics that require you to bring a specific profession and a specific skill? That just removes all depth. Why? Because the player can’t choose how to approach and tackle the content. It removes all player agency. You want to run the piece of content with 5 friends and no-one has a Mesmer or Ranger? Well, can’t run the content then.

However, what you’re saying – having enemies that require roles – is exactly what I’m saying. I’m just saying the role isn’t dependant on class, but on build, since the role is provided by the encounter, and not a pre-defined [class] is a [role].

Taking your levers example. As well as a Ranger pet being able to trigger it, Blast Finishers can also trigger it. Or maybe you passed some rocks that you could place on it.

“if I only had one way of doing content with no room for experimentation.” Where did I say you only have room for 1 way of doing anything? I just gave examples how you can make attacks or dungeons that give value to a specific property of a role and that is what you need. That does not mean there are multiple ways to solve a problem.

If you can’t find more ways that has more to do with lack of your imagination.

For example the spreading our of damage over enemies. Roles that have many minions have an obvious advantage there. A ranger has only 1 pet so less likely however if you have multiple ranger it might still work. Or you use the Silvary ability Take Root that puts down multiple turrets that also count as an enemy. So there are still multiple options. But you do make roles more specific and build the content in a way that every role can make more use of it’s own advantages.

“You want to run the piece of content with 5 friends and no-one has a Mesmer or Ranger? Well, can’t run the content then. ” That however can indeed happen and no that’s no problem. That also means those roles have there real use in stead of how it is now. Just all do as much DPS as possible and so the class that is best in that is the best overall class or how it worked out in this game, the armor that provides that the best is the best overall armor.
Trying to make everything work for everybody is what was the cause for the way roles and content is designed and is what is the core of the problem being talked about here.

“I’m just saying the role isn’t dependant on class, but on build, since the role is provided by the encounter, and not a pre-defined [class] is a [role]. ”
I say it’s both. The encounter decides what roles you need and the classes (and / or build) makes the role for the player. You then need to match the two (what the encounter requires and what roles are available) for the best outcome of the fight. That does not mean that 1 class can not have multiple roles. However I do feel classes have more to do with the roles then builds. Builds is playing a little with stats while the classes are about the skills and abilities and that’s what makes the role of a player. So as an example. There is a encounter that really requires a healer then you brind somebody with a healer class to fill his role in the encounter.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”. No. Absolutely not. You can blame Anet for not implementing for not making a “proper tutorial” OR blame yourself you get used to mechanics spoonfed to you.

Most people focus on DPS and it works just fine for them. But of course it’s not the fault of the Anet.. No it’s the players fault for.. yeah for what really?

For using mechanics they get spoonfed on?. Those mechanics (you talk abour.. dps dps dps) do not work if you really have multiple required! classes.

Based on my personal experience, no. Players come in tanky gear and expect to clear content as a full offensive, optimized group. And please, why on earth it bothers you that dealing damage makes you able to go trough a dungeon? You want to tank mobs to death? Or heal them until they overwhelmed from love and die?

You need a bigger b8 m8. I didn’t speak about dps dps dps, exactly the opposite. Players, like you, live in a delusional state and spread misinformation how the game only need just dps, stand in one spot and just spam 1, meanwhile it couldn’t be far from the truth.
My point was mechanics like combo fields, blinds, build synergy, CC and so on, aren’t explained by the game itself in a foolproof way as a lot of players want it. Simple logic would solve this thing (combo finisher + combo field → use them → do stuff → yay), but sadly the new gamer generation expect to get every info in their faces and do little to no research about the game or it’s mechanics.

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Posted by: calyx.9086

calyx.9086

snip

Sorry, your suggestions suck. I like my high dps guard just fine the way it is. Why do you want to break professions? If your class isn’t desired in a dungeon, roll another one that is part of the meta.

I’m all for improving the utility of professions in dungeons and group PVE, but this is an asinine route to doing that.

we just need mobs in pve like enemies in fractal ascalon . op range dmg which stays on RANGE (mags), heavy rushers (warriors), healers(monks) etc. in this way you can take of course 5 zerkers but you will wipe many many times and more efficient will be taking healing guard or condii necro to weak enemies not only zerker warriors

Wtf are you talking about. We always take 5 zerkers to fractals and do quite fine with no wipes in the ascalon fractal. Maybe the problem here is that you are running with a subpar group.

(edited by calyx.9086)

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Posted by: Morbridae.8607

Morbridae.8607

The problem mainly is the lack of real defined roles.

I think the main problem is that content doesn’t require people to do anything other than damage.

(…)

What content needs to do is replace the class roles by adding roles unique to that encounter. With an open system like GW2, the content needs to get people to think “What can I bring to this fight that will get us past it?”. Content designed as such adds much more depth than having defined, required roles.

Imagine the Lover’s basic mechanic of needing to keep them away from each other (forget the actual implementation).

+1000. You just nailed it.

You can need to just keep alive a npc against invulnerable enemies, thus needing control and healing. You can need to go unnoticed into an enemy base, thus needing stealth-based classes. You can need to take down some mobs only with conditions. You can need to… anything that doesn’t means just flat dps.

Morbridae (Norn Necromancer)
@ Sorrow’s Furnace (VE)

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

So I have seen plenty of “Warr/Guard OP” “Only ever need 1 Ele” “Ranger/Engi are trash” types of posts.

It got me thinking about profession balance, and the perceived lack thereof. What if you could take some aspects of the Holy Trinity, but still create variation between the professions?

Warr/Guard are OP
Only ever need 1 Ele
Ranger/Engi are trash

That’s three post from ppl that don’t know how the game work. You don’t base modification of your game on ppl that don’t know how it work. Variation between the professions?

Robechef already gave a excellent answer to that.

Ropechef did not give a good answer to that. It was basically somebody telling he was great and other people suck. You don’t need or have really roles in this game. You can imagine a lot of roles but if your plumbing is broken you also don’t call the hairdresser to come and fix it (because you know she might be able to fix it). These predefined roles sure can be used in multiple ways but it is also what makes everybody ‘special’ or useful in the group and what makes team-play more interesting. You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with no problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).

Also “Stealth if you’re doing content that benefits more from Stealth than a 3rd FGSer or 2nd Reflector. ”. Nice if but content is hardly designed that way.

(edited by Devata.6589)

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Posted by: VOLTCIEAGE.3029

VOLTCIEAGE.3029

snip

Sorry, your suggestions suck. I like my high dps guard just fine the way it is. Why do you want to break professions? If your class isn’t desired in a dungeon, roll another one that is part of the meta.

I’m all for improving the utility of professions in dungeons and group PVE, but this is an asinine route to doing that.

we just need mobs in pve like enemies in fractal ascalon . op range dmg which stays on RANGE (mags), heavy rushers (warriors), healers(monks) etc. in this way you can take of course 5 zerkers but you will wipe many many times and more efficient will be taking healing guard or condii necro to weak enemies not only zerker warriors

Wtf are you talking about. We always take 5 zerkers to fractals and do quite fine with no wipes in the ascalon fractal. Maybe the problem here is that you are running with a subpar group.

I forget to add like on level 50+ of fractal, i know it is still possible but it requires much more skill then standing in one spot and facerolling keyboard with warrior . Maybe we also need higher value of thoughnes against pve mobs to let ppl tank .

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

It’s not imposing restrictions, it’s giving additional abilities to excel in.

Also I did not see anybody here ask for the holy trinity.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”. No. Absolutely not. You can blame Anet for not implementing for not making a “proper tutorial” OR blame yourself you get used to mechanics spoonfed to you.

Most people focus on DPS and it works just fine for them. But of course it’s not the fault of the Anet.. No it’s the players fault for.. yeah for what really?

For using mechanics they get spoonfed on?. Those mechanics (you talk abour.. dps dps dps) do not work if you really have multiple required! classes.

Based on my personal experience, no. Players come in tanky gear and expect to clear content as a full offensive, optimized group. And please, why on earth it bothers you that dealing damage makes you able to go trough a dungeon? You want to tank mobs to death? Or heal them until they overwhelmed from love and die?

You need a bigger b8 m8. I didn’t speak about dps dps dps, exactly the opposite. Players, like you, live in a delusional state and spread misinformation how the game only need just dps, stand in one spot and just spam 1, meanwhile it couldn’t be far from the truth.
My point was mechanics like combo fields, blinds, build synergy, CC and so on, aren’t explained by the game itself in a foolproof way as a lot of players want it. Simple logic would solve this thing (combo finisher + combo field -> use them -> do stuff -> yay), but sadly the new gamer generation expect to get every info in their faces and do little to no research about the game or it’s mechanics.

Based on my personal experience I see how people complete most content just fine and even complain about stuff not being challenging. And they mainly do that using mainly DPS.

It’s not about tanking a mob to dead. It’s about using your brain, think of tactics and.. there it is.. Use your special abilities in the best possible way for the fight you have. However it usually boils down to.. Do as much DPS as possible and we get the job done in the most optimal way.

Also it does not seem that ‘the new gamer generation’ thinks you should not have to use tactics (at least not the PC-gamers) because else we would not see so many topics like this.

But it’s always a nice excuse.. Everything is fine and everybody who says it’s not just sucks at the game.

Oow and about you not talking about DPS..
“Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”
I don’t post as b8. The way you think people post something just as b8 says more about your reason for posting then mine I guess.

(edited by Devata.6589)

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

It’s not imposing restrictions, it’s giving additional abilities to excel in.

Also I did not see anybody here ask for the holy trinity.

Of course it’s imposing restrictions. “guardians can tank but warriors suck at conditions” is restrictions. We don’t need that.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

So I have seen plenty of “Warr/Guard OP” “Only ever need 1 Ele” “Ranger/Engi are trash” types of posts.

It got me thinking about profession balance, and the perceived lack thereof. What if you could take some aspects of the Holy Trinity, but still create variation between the professions?

Warr/Guard are OP
Only ever need 1 Ele
Ranger/Engi are trash

That’s three post from ppl that don’t know how the game work. You don’t base modification of your game on ppl that don’t know how it work. Variation between the professions?

Robechef already gave a excellent answer to that.

Ropechef did not give a good answer to that. It was basically somebody telling he was great and other people suck. You don’t need or have really roles in this game. You can imagine a lot of roles but if your plumbing is broken you also don’t call the hairdresser to come and fix it (because you know she might be able to fix it). These predefined roles sure can be used in multiple ways but it is also what makes everybody ‘special’ or useful in the group and what makes team-play more interesting. You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with not problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).

Also “Stealth if you’re doing content that benefits more from Stealth than a 3rd FGSer or 2nd Reflector. ”. Nice if but content is hardly designed that way.

That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas. You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.

Content is actually very friendly to Stealth. THe out of combat time in dungeons is just as much as the in combat time or at least pretty close, more in some dungeons less in others. Having a Thief in most dungeons is quite nice making skips much easier, meaning a faster dungeon… same benefit as higher dps.

My group generally goes with War, Thief, Guard, Mesmer, Ele as our ideal group because it covers everything. Skips are easy thanks to the thief/mesmer. DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear and have ele conjures and war banners + quickness from guard/mesmer. All the utility is covered as far as reflects and pulls/pushes for position by the Guard/mesmer. Then stability and condition removal covered by guard/mesmer as well. Then CC is mostly handled by the mesmer/thief/war, using the thief/mesmer to strip defiance stacks if needed.

Everyone has their job to do. Everyone has their areas of expertise. And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly. But at the same time we’re not dependent on a single person for anything. If DPS were really all that mattered we’d just be running war + 4 ele, or something like that but doing that we’d lose so much it’s just not as good in most situations.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

It’s not imposing restrictions, it’s giving additional abilities to excel in.

Also I did not see anybody here ask for the holy trinity.

Of course it’s imposing restrictions. “guardians can tank but warriors suck at conditions” is restrictions. We don’t need that.

Well if that is a restriction then you should give every class exactly the same or really you would not have different classes any-more only different races.. of course without skills based on the race. That might be what you like but most people like some more tactics and teamwork to be involved.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Ropechef did not give a good answer to that. It was basically somebody telling he was great and other people suck. You don’t need or have really roles in this game. You can imagine a lot of roles but if your plumbing is broken you also don’t call the hairdresser to come and fix it (because you know she might be able to fix it). These predefined roles sure can be used in multiple ways but it is also what makes everybody ‘special’ or useful in the group and what makes team-play more interesting. You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with not problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).

Also “Stealth if you’re doing content that benefits more from Stealth than a 3rd FGSer or 2nd Reflector. ”. Nice if but content is hardly designed that way.

What are you taking about. He listed what each profession can do the best. What each profession can bring to a party. What do you want more? I just don’t get your point. I don’t call a warrior if i need some damage mitigation i’ll call a guardian, If i need stealth i won’t ask for a necro i’ll ask a thief, if i need more dmg booster i’ll ask a warrior or ranger, etc. Each profession can bring something different to the party, but they are all optional so you can bring whatever party composition you want.

‘’You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with not problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).’’

Ok. English is not my first language and I hope that’s the case for you too, because I can hardly understand your point here.

- I can scream that everybody just don’t get it and they are all noobs, but these noobs can complete content without problem while focusing on DPS? I get it right? Still don’t understand. Yup, noobs can complete dungeon with DPS build. What’s your point?

- That prove that there is no role and that make combat less interesting? I think i get that. DPS is not the only things that exist in GW2 btw. Warrior will focus on Offensive support, Mesmer on utilities, Guardian on defensive support, etc. Ya we talked a lot about full DPS build. That’s not totally true. DPS is always the major focus of a good build. But a lot of good build also sacrifice some of their personal DPS in order to get more party support. For me, that make the combat super interesting. We can both have our opinions. For me Anet should improve the current system that is already good. For you the system is broken and not that interesting. Maybe the game is not right for you?

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: EgonVenkman.1907

EgonVenkman.1907

The problem with PvE, is at the end of the day, it is nothing more than a DPS race. The AI is weak enough that almost all damage can be mitigated by properly timed dodging.

Creating more defined roles will remove some and make others even more desired in the great race.

PvE content is generally easy enough that you can have just about any class/build combination and make it work. That leads to the zerker problem, as if the content is easy enough for anyone, it is even easier/faster with super DPS levels. And the faster you can do content, the more content you can do/repeat. The fundamental problem is going to be mob AI. Since the AI isn’t advanced enough to counteract skills/“act human”, the devs turn the mobs into hp sponges. Which makes the zerker/dps only problem worse.

Colin Johanson: "Everyone, including casual gamers,
by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-27-guild-wars-2-preview?page=3

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

So I have seen plenty of “Warr/Guard OP” “Only ever need 1 Ele” “Ranger/Engi are trash” types of posts.

It got me thinking about profession balance, and the perceived lack thereof. What if you could take some aspects of the Holy Trinity, but still create variation between the professions?

Warr/Guard are OP
Only ever need 1 Ele
Ranger/Engi are trash

That’s three post from ppl that don’t know how the game work. You don’t base modification of your game on ppl that don’t know how it work. Variation between the professions?

Robechef already gave a excellent answer to that.

Ropechef did not give a good answer to that. It was basically somebody telling he was great and other people suck. You don’t need or have really roles in this game. You can imagine a lot of roles but if your plumbing is broken you also don’t call the hairdresser to come and fix it (because you know she might be able to fix it). These predefined roles sure can be used in multiple ways but it is also what makes everybody ‘special’ or useful in the group and what makes team-play more interesting. You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with not problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).

Also “Stealth if you’re doing content that benefits more from Stealth than a 3rd FGSer or 2nd Reflector. ”. Nice if but content is hardly designed that way.

That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas. You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.

Content is actually very friendly to Stealth. THe out of combat time in dungeons is just as much as the in combat time or at least pretty close, more in some dungeons less in others. Having a Thief in most dungeons is quite nice making skips much easier, meaning a faster dungeon… same benefit as higher dps.

My group generally goes with War, Thief, Guard, Mesmer, Ele as our ideal group because it covers everything. Skips are easy thanks to the thief/mesmer. DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear and have ele conjures and war banners + quickness from guard/mesmer. All the utility is covered as far as reflects and pulls/pushes for position by the Guard/mesmer. Then stability and condition removal covered by guard/mesmer as well. Then CC is mostly handled by the mesmer/thief/war, using the thief/mesmer to strip defiance stacks if needed.

Everyone has their job to do. Everyone has their areas of expertise. And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly. But at the same time we’re not dependent on a single person for anything. If DPS were really all that mattered we’d just be running war + 4 ele, or something like that but doing that we’d lose so much it’s just not as good in most situations.

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Based on my personal experience I see how people complete most content just fine and even complain about stuff not being challenging. And they mainly do that using mainly DPS.

Than you have good pugs or friends, who can beat the content without support or control. Good for you.

It’s not about tanking a mob to dead. It’s about using your brain, think of tactics and.. there it is.. Use your special abilities in the best possible way for the fight you have.

Tactics developed months ago, so it’s very natural, easy and dumb for most of us. It happens in every game. Define special abilites. In my opinion every non-auto attack is a special ability, so i guess there are some difference in the use of these terms.
Again, if you have such a pro pug or friends, that can beat the content without zero support (boons, reflects, cleanse, etc) and control (be it soft or hard CC), good for you, but the majority don’t play that way.

However it usually boils down to.. Do as much DPS as possible and we get the job done in the most optimal way.

Which happens in every other MMO. Your tanks and healers are well geared and can handle the encounters? Dump 1-2 and get another dps dude.

Also it does not seem that ‘the new gamer generation’ thinks you should not have to use tactics (at least not the PC-gamers) because else we would not see so many topics like this.

OP just want a (bad) solution to a non-existent problem, because he lacks game knowledge.

But it’s always a nice excuse.. Everything is fine and everybody who says it’s not just sucks at the game.

Nope, the game has issues i admit it, but the average player, which mades up the vast majority of the playerbase, is extremely dumb to my other experiences in MMO games.

Oow and about you not talking about DPS..
“Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”
I don’t post as b8. The way you think people post something just as b8 says more about your reason for posting then mine I guess.

Read it again before go full troll mode.

(edited by Dalanor.5387)

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

Stop foir a second and think. If I need projectile walls, I can call a mesmer who does it best, a guardian who does it next best, then a thief or ele can do it in a pinch as well. But warrior, no go.

There is that specialization that you seem to want, just it’s more subtle than you want it to be as there are more options than you seem to want.

You’re simply demonstrating your lack of understanding for the full mechanics of the game. Yes, I go as much dps as I can, but I do that in every game. You only need so much defense, and once that’s covered you go all offense. Just so happens that I can cover the full defense needed while still wearing full dps gear. That’s thanks to this being a skill based game where active defense is king.

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Posted by: calyx.9086

calyx.9086

snip

Sorry, your suggestions suck. I like my high dps guard just fine the way it is. Why do you want to break professions? If your class isn’t desired in a dungeon, roll another one that is part of the meta.

I’m all for improving the utility of professions in dungeons and group PVE, but this is an asinine route to doing that.

we just need mobs in pve like enemies in fractal ascalon . op range dmg which stays on RANGE (mags), heavy rushers (warriors), healers(monks) etc. in this way you can take of course 5 zerkers but you will wipe many many times and more efficient will be taking healing guard or condii necro to weak enemies not only zerker warriors

Wtf are you talking about. We always take 5 zerkers to fractals and do quite fine with no wipes in the ascalon fractal. Maybe the problem here is that you are running with a subpar group.

I forget to add like on level 50+ of fractal, i know it is still possible but it requires much more skill then standing in one spot and facerolling keyboard with warrior . Maybe we also need higher value of thoughnes against pve mobs to let ppl tank .

Yes, you’re correct, you can’t always just stand in one spot.

We don’t need people being able to tank, that’s not what GW2 is about. Tanking is obsolete, that’s why you have active defenses such as dodge, aegis, and reflects, etc.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Ropechef did not give a good answer to that. It was basically somebody telling he was great and other people suck. You don’t need or have really roles in this game. You can imagine a lot of roles but if your plumbing is broken you also don’t call the hairdresser to come and fix it (because you know she might be able to fix it). These predefined roles sure can be used in multiple ways but it is also what makes everybody ‘special’ or useful in the group and what makes team-play more interesting. You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with not problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).

Also “Stealth if you’re doing content that benefits more from Stealth than a 3rd FGSer or 2nd Reflector. ”. Nice if but content is hardly designed that way.

What are you taking about. He listed what each profession can do the best. What each profession can bring to a party. What do you want more? I just don’t get your point. I don’t call a warrior if i need some damage mitigation i’ll call a guardian, If i need stealth i won’t ask for a necro i’ll ask a thief, if i need more dmg booster i’ll ask a warrior or ranger, etc. Each profession can bring something different to the party, but they are all optional so you can bring whatever party composition you want.

‘’You can start screaming that everybody just don’t get it and it are all noobs but all those noobs just complete the content with not problem focusing on dps. That proofs here are no real roles and that makes combat less interesting (when using teams).’’

Ok. English is not my first language and I hope that’s the case for you too, because I can hardly understand your point here.

- I can scream that everybody just don’t get it and they are all noobs, but these noobs can complete content without problem while focusing on DPS? I get it right? Still don’t understand. Yup, noobs can complete dungeon with DPS build. What’s your point?

- That prove that there is no role and that make combat less interesting? I think i get that. DPS is not the only things that exist in GW2 btw. Warrior will focus on Offensive support, Mesmer on utilities, Guardian on defensive support, etc. Ya we talked a lot about full DPS build. That’s not totally true. DPS is always the major focus of a good build. But a lot of good build also sacrifice some of their personal DPS in order to get more party support. For me, that make the combat super interesting. We can both have our opinions. For me Anet should improve the current system that is already good. For you the system is broken and not that interesting. Maybe the game is not right for you?

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

“Yup, noobs can complete dungeon with DPS build. What’s your point? ”
It proofs that roles are not important.
Also it shows the claim that somebody just is a noob or just don’t get it (when they say you don’t rally have roles) is invalid. Because those same people complete the content without any problem. So there is no need for teamwork where everybody uses his speciality. Proving their point.

Maybe it’s not the game for anybody who says combat is to easy, that there are no challenges and there are no roles. But then Anet would have a problem.

Anyway I think you summarized it perfectly here: “That’s not totally true. DPS is always the major focus of a good build. But a lot of good build also sacrifice some of their personal DPS in order to get more party support. ”

So it’s mainly DPS.. I am not saying every class is exactly the same. Everybody has it’s own skills. The problem is that that all is just more of a side note “sacrifice some” while it mainly boils down to one thing “*DPS* is always the major focus”.

It would be better the other way around.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

Stop foir a second and think. If I need projectile walls, I can call a mesmer who does it best, a guardian who does it next best, then a thief or ele can do it in a pinch as well. But warrior, no go.

There is that specialization that you seem to want, just it’s more subtle than you want it to be as there are more options than you seem to want.

You’re simply demonstrating your lack of understanding for the full mechanics of the game. Yes, I go as much dps as I can, but I do that in every game. You only need so much defense, and once that’s covered you go all offense. Just so happens that I can cover the full defense needed while still wearing full dps gear. That’s thanks to this being a skill based game where active defense is king.

When I need that wall. But then again, people can also all DPS the hell out of the enemy. I understand the game perfectly, I just wish those specialties would be some more valuable then they are now.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

Stop foir a second and think. If I need projectile walls, I can call a mesmer who does it best, a guardian who does it next best, then a thief or ele can do it in a pinch as well. But warrior, no go.

There is that specialization that you seem to want, just it’s more subtle than you want it to be as there are more options than you seem to want.

You’re simply demonstrating your lack of understanding for the full mechanics of the game. Yes, I go as much dps as I can, but I do that in every game. You only need so much defense, and once that’s covered you go all offense. Just so happens that I can cover the full defense needed while still wearing full dps gear. That’s thanks to this being a skill based game where active defense is king.

When I need that wall. But then again, people can also all DPS the hell out of the enemy. I understand the game perfectly, I just wish those specialties would be some more valuable then they are now.

Care to elaborate and give some examples of what you’re thinking? I see those utilities as extremely important so…

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Based on my personal experience I see how people complete most content just fine and even complain about stuff not being challenging. And they mainly do that using mainly DPS.

Than you have good pugs or friends, who can beat the content without support or control. Good for you.

It’s not about tanking a mob to dead. It’s about using your brain, think of tactics and.. there it is.. Use your special abilities in the best possible way for the fight you have.

Tactics developed months ago, so it’s very natural, easy and dumb for most of us. It happens in every game. Define special abilites. In my opinion every non-auto attack is a special ability, so i guess there are some difference in the use of these terms.
Again, if you have such a pro pug or friends, that can beat the content without zero support (boons, reflects, cleanse, etc) and control (be it soft or hard CC), good for you, but the majority don’t play that way.

However it usually boils down to.. Do as much DPS as possible and we get the job done in the most optimal way.

Which happens in every other MMO. Your tanks and healers are well geared and can handle the encounters? Dump 1-2 and get another dps dude.

Also it does not seem that ‘the new gamer generation’ thinks you should not have to use tactics (at least not the PC-gamers) because else we would not see so many topics like this.

OP just want a (bad) solution to a non-existent problem, because he lacks game knowledge.

But it’s always a nice excuse.. Everything is fine and everybody who says it’s not just sucks at the game.

Nope, the game has issues i admit it, but the average player, which mades up the vast majority of the playerbase, is extremely dumb to my other experiences in MMO games.

Oow and about you not talking about DPS..
“Thats a great post Ropechef and exactly thats why people should get ignored who starts their complain with “but dungz ned only deepz!”
I don’t post as b8. The way you think people post something just as b8 says more about your reason for posting then mine I guess.

Read it again before go full troll mode.

“Good for you. ”
It’s not about if it’s good for me or not. It’s about that roles are not so special / needed in this game and that can make content (team content) more dull.

“Tactics developed months ago, so it’s very natural, easy and dumb for most of us. It happens in every game.” Did you see me talking about Wolfenstein ET before. That game is 11 years old but I can still have fun.. Now that’s of course also because the enemy is a person, not AI but good roles for sure help a lot.

I read it again.

(edited by Devata.6589)

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

Stop foir a second and think. If I need projectile walls, I can call a mesmer who does it best, a guardian who does it next best, then a thief or ele can do it in a pinch as well. But warrior, no go.

There is that specialization that you seem to want, just it’s more subtle than you want it to be as there are more options than you seem to want.

You’re simply demonstrating your lack of understanding for the full mechanics of the game. Yes, I go as much dps as I can, but I do that in every game. You only need so much defense, and once that’s covered you go all offense. Just so happens that I can cover the full defense needed while still wearing full dps gear. That’s thanks to this being a skill based game where active defense is king.

When I need that wall. But then again, people can also all DPS the hell out of the enemy. I understand the game perfectly, I just wish those specialties would be some more valuable then they are now.

Care to elaborate and give some examples of what you’re thinking? I see those utilities as extremely important so…

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Not-full-Holy-Trinity-but-vary-proffs/first#post4131839

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Posted by: Rauderi.8706

Rauderi.8706

I think the main problem is that content doesn’t require people to do anything other than damage.

Look at a game with defined class roles a la the Trinity. If the content in that game didn’t require someone to constantly be healing, or for someone to draw aggro and soak damage, then it could have all the class roles in the world, people wouldn’t bother playing the roles that aren’t needed.

What content needs to do is replace the class roles by adding roles unique to that encounter. With an open system like GW2, the content needs to get people to think “What can I bring to this fight that will get us past it?”. Content designed as such adds much more depth than having defined, required roles.

Imagine the Lover’s basic mechanic of needing to keep them away from each other (forget the actual implementation).

One group might decide to take one heavy control + sustain to keep the one busy, another with control and damage to join 3 other DPS to burst the other down as quick as possible. Another group might split into 2 equal groups and tackle both of them at the same time, while another is dedicated to taking down adds.

Even a fight as basic as the Effigy in CoF can have roles, even if everyone is DPS. One person’s role is to wipe the crystals out, while the others attack the Effigy. Tweak the crystals slightly that add a stacking debuff (say, a DoT that can’t be cleansed. Increases in intensity), and then you have a fight where a small amount of co-ordination is needed (swapping from the role of damaging the boss to crystal-clearing duty).

Can ANet hire you?

I’ve said in other threads roughly the same thing. If GW2 is going to blossom as a non-Trinity game, it needs to design encounters around the many facets of its active gameplay. Its reliance on monolithic bosses actually hurts their encounter design.

Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

Stop foir a second and think. If I need projectile walls, I can call a mesmer who does it best, a guardian who does it next best, then a thief or ele can do it in a pinch as well. But warrior, no go.

There is that specialization that you seem to want, just it’s more subtle than you want it to be as there are more options than you seem to want.

You’re simply demonstrating your lack of understanding for the full mechanics of the game. Yes, I go as much dps as I can, but I do that in every game. You only need so much defense, and once that’s covered you go all offense. Just so happens that I can cover the full defense needed while still wearing full dps gear. That’s thanks to this being a skill based game where active defense is king.

When I need that wall. But then again, people can also all DPS the hell out of the enemy. I understand the game perfectly, I just wish those specialties would be some more valuable then they are now.

Care to elaborate and give some examples of what you’re thinking? I see those utilities as extremely important so…

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Not-full-Holy-Trinity-but-vary-proffs/first#post4131839

That’s not really specific examples as it pertains to GW2 though.

And with that you’re taking a game that sounds like a trinity in wolfenstein. And a game that has a Rock paper scissors system that is Pokemon. Quite different situations.

GW2 I do take a thief for stealth as it makes the skips much quicker and safer.

I do take a mesmer/guard so I can faceroll bloomhunger without worrying about projectiles.

I do take a warrior for their DPS support, not their DPS (if they didn’t provide dps support we wouldn’t use them).

I choose the professions for their utility, but I spec all my characters gear to be DPS zerk/assassin gear, with strength/scholar/ranger runes and perception/bloodlust/force/night/undead/accuracy/energy sigils. Then my Weapon/trait/skill choices determine the utility I bring.

But again, if you have some good ideas, lets hear them as they apply to gw2. Saying “make it more like gameX” doesn’t really say much.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

Toughness already have a role for learning or easy ride when you lack the skills to survive without it. Can you find something that toughness could bring other than aggro or personnal surviability? (AKA Tank). No thank i don’t want that. Good for me, apparently Anet have the same opinions as myself on that.

“Yup, noobs can complete dungeon with DPS build. What’s your point? ”
It proofs that roles are not important.
Also it shows the claim that somebody just is a noob or just don’t get it (when they say you don’t rally have roles) is invalid. Because those same people complete the content without any problem. So there is no need for teamwork where everybody uses his speciality. Proving their point.

I said complete right? You saw that right? Anybody can complete anything with any build. It will take them 8 hours, but they will complete it eventually. It can be ppl in super tanky stuff that press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 or it can be noobs in full dps gear that don’t get how the game work and will be dead and wp every 5 sec the result is the same. They will eventually finish it if they want too. Its will just take a really long time.

Good player will survive in a meta full zerker build wihtout much problem, that’s why we said that the game lack some challenge sometimes. But a lot of ppl are casuals or a bit bad and can’t use that kind of build. They need some passive defense because they lack the knowledge of the encounter or how to best use the strength of your profession so survive even if you have zero defense stats.

Role in GW2 are optional. Meaning that you can complete encounter is different ways. Ya of course there is a general thread that is always the same, but I’ll play different way depending on my profession. You want role that are more different from one another and you want that these role to be important enough that they can’t be replace. I don’t mind the first, I would hate the second.

Maybe it’s not the game for anybody who says combat is to easy, that there are no challenges and there are no roles. But then Anet would have a problem..

I think this game is too easy and need more challenge. I would love for hardcore difficult dungeon. I still don’t agree that there is no roles. But I understand that we don’t have the same definition of role for GW2.

Anyway I think you summarized it perfectly here: “That’s not totally true. DPS is always the major focus of a good build. But a lot of good build also sacrifice some of their personal DPS in order to get more party support. ”

So it’s mainly DPS.. I am not saying every class is exactly the same. Everybody has it’s own skills. The problem is that that all is just more of a side note “sacrifice some” while it mainly boils down to one thing “*DPS* is always the major focus”.

It would be better the other way around.

Yup. The main focus is always DPS and active defense. And that’s what make that game so awesome for me. If you want more bigger, important, different and obligatory roles, there is plenty of those in other games.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Xhieron.2168

Xhieron.2168

In my admittedly limited experience it’s never been the principles so much as the implementation when it came to roles. Frankly I like the Control-Damage-Support trinity because it’s a broadening of the old trinity across all classes. Even in EQ, Enchanters and Warriors were basically doing the same job in different ways, and Clerics were necessary only because nobody else had access to healing.

Well, here, everybody (theoretically) has access to support, control, and damage, and that should absolutely remain. It should never be (or have been) the case that Guardians always do more support, but only that they do it in the Guardian way.

The problem is that the roles aren’t pronounced. Guardians, Warriors, and Elementalists stand out because other classes aren’t as good as they are at particular tasks. But we’re often not even talking about support, control, or damage in the abstract; instead we’re talking about the tasks that are perceived as necessary, and here is where the implementation hasn’t worked. Some versions of these roles are just more valuable: we don’t need a tank or a mezzer. We need might stacks, so we need Fire fields and Blast finishers. To further complicate things, the meta could abruptly change at any given time, meaning that profession value will change as tasks change, rather than roles.

Suppose in the next patch most bosses are given faster, weaker attacks as adroitly suggested by Blood Red Arachnid. Suddenly the entire meta shifts to address that change. When it finally settles, who knows which classes are going to be popular and which aren’t. Compare that to the entire lifespan of EQ, DAOC, WOW, COX, or literally any other game with hard-coded roles: there’s no patch in the history of WOW that made Warriors undesirable. You always need a tank. So if you’re not bringing a Warrior, it’s only because you’re bringing a Druid, Pally, or Death Knight instead. But in GW2 (and forgive me a little hyperbole), it’s entirely conceivable that the white summer could eventually end and Guardians would no longer always be in demand, because Guardians aren’t defined by a role but by the tasks they perform to fill it. It’s only in comparison to the other professions’ abilities to perform those tasks that are perceived to be valuable that the profession has value to a party.

You don’t fix the problem by making Thieves better tanks (or worse, suggesting that thieves should never be tanking). You fix it by making thief tanking something that players want, which might involve changes to thieves, changes to tankable content, or both.

To do this, the ponies all need a lot of tricks, because there’s no way to anticipate which tricks are the ones that your fickle player base will want. But everybody needs a Portal Entre/Exeunt to hang his hat on, and preferably multiples—that is, something that, like easy access to Fire Fields—he can offer up as a task which is a unique contribution to a particular type of content. Where we’re at right now, some professions just have nothing of value to offer. Damage doesn’t count; neither does “support” or “control”. Those are abstractions that are hard to define and articulate. And that’s fine: The last thing I want is a game in which people are getting turned away because “we already have two Eles as supports.”

But the current game really isn’t any better than that. The main hurdle that’s kept me from experiencing more dungeon content is the social barrier of entry; I just don’t want to be a burden. Giving my profession of choice pre-defined roles in which he excels isn’t going to change that. Giving me something I can put on the table, however—“I can make you guys hit harder” or “I can let us skip x”—that’s something I can use.

Peace and safety.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

GW2 needs new paths and/or new encounters with more varied mechanics. It does not need Trinity Lite or “snowflake” syndrome. Simple encounter mechanics are boring in every MMO.

So, by all means implement mechanics in GW2 that require interrupting certain boss abilities. Make sure that you keep Defiance or something similar so that it’s harder to do so. Design the encounters so that players need to use all the support buffs the game offers. Make it so that coordination is required to beat every single encounter in a dungeon. But be sure to realize which demographics are going to be negatively impacted when you do. Hint: it won’t be the players who drive the meta.

It’s fine to ask for change when you’re bored. However, boredom is a function of repetition, and the solution for repetition is doing something new. So, ask for new paths rather than breaking the game’s combat down and starting over from scratch while leaving the same paths and bosses in place.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

“if I only had one way of doing content with no room for experimentation.” Where did I say you only have room for 1 way of doing anything? I just gave examples how you can make attacks or dungeons that give value to a specific property of a role and that is what you need. That does not mean there are multiple ways to solve a problem.

If you can’t find more ways that has more to do with lack of your imagination.

For example the spreading our of damage over enemies. Roles that have many minions have an obvious advantage there. A ranger has only 1 pet so less likely however if you have multiple ranger it might still work. Or you use the Silvary ability Take Root that puts down multiple turrets that also count as an enemy. So there are still multiple options. But you do make roles more specific and build the content in a way that every role can make more use of it’s own advantages.

Your example with the Mesmer portal. That’s where I got that from. The only other professions with self-teleports are, as far as I know, Thief, Guardian, Elementalist and Necro (providing you’ve either put the worm out of the area or got enough time to). Unless you make the actual attack unavoidable / countered with Stability or escapable with Leaps, if you’re a Warrior, Engineer or Ranger in that situation, bad luck.

“You want to run the piece of content with 5 friends and no-one has a Mesmer or Ranger? Well, can’t run the content then. ” That however can indeed happen and no that’s no problem. That also means those roles have there real use in stead of how it is now. Just all do as much DPS as possible and so the class that is best in that is the best overall class or how it worked out in this game, the armor that provides that the best is the best overall armor.

Trying to make everything work for everybody is what was the cause for the way roles and content is designed and is what is the core of the problem being talked about here.

So it’s not a problem where you require specific classes otherwise you can’t do the content? Sorry, but I’ll have to disagree on that one. If you can be smart and build your character to be effective in a role, you should be able to. You shouldn’t be restricted by your class. The content should bring the player, not the class.

Also, since you keep mentioning roles, I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be roles outside of DPS. I’m saying that instead of tying the role to the profession, you tie the role to the content. The definition of ‘role’ is your purpose in the group. If you need to Immobilise an enemy at certain points, that shouldn’t be restricted to 2 or 3 classes.

“I’m just saying the role isn’t dependant on class, but on build, since the role is provided by the encounter, and not a pre-defined [class] is a [role]. ”

I say it’s both. The encounter decides what roles you need and the classes (and / or build) makes the role for the player. You then need to match the two (what the encounter requires and what roles are available) for the best outcome of the fight. That does not mean that 1 class can not have multiple roles. However I do feel classes have more to do with the roles then builds. Builds is playing a little with stats while the classes are about the skills and abilities and that’s what makes the role of a player. So as an example. There is a encounter that really requires a healer then you brind somebody with a healer class to fill his role in the encounter.

I disagree. Builds have a lot to do with what your character can bring to the fight, moreso than class. Class is more of how they can handle specific things. For example, Incoming Conditions in respect to helping team-mates, most of the ways are either removing, drawing or converting conditions:

Warrior – “Shake It Off!”, Warhorn remove conditions.
Guardian – Ray of Judgement, Cleansing Flame, Purging Flames, “Save Yourselves!”, Bow of Truth, Purifying Ribbon remove or draw conditions
Ranger – Healing Spring, Nature’s Renewal, Brown Bear remove conditions
Engineer – Healing Turret Cleansing Burst, Toss Elixir C + R, Fumigate, Drop Antidote removes of converts conditions
Thief – Signet of Agility removes conditions
Mesmer – Null Field, Mantra of Resolve, Phantasmal Disenchanter, Harmonius Mantrkittentered Conditions removes conditions.
Necromancer – Plague Signet, Well of Power, Grim Specter, Unholy Martyr removes or draws conditions.
Elementalist – Healing Rain, Cleansing wave (both skill and trait) removes conditions.

Any profession isn’t bound to a specialised role if they don’t wish to be, but can still provide utility in that event anyway. I personally love this freedom.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: Morsus.5106

Morsus.5106

What you’re talking about is rebalancing, it’s rebuilding the game from the ground up.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

“That’s the thing, there are no hairdressers or plumbers in this game, just a bunch of handymen who specialize in different areas.” So it’s all more of the same. Everybody can do anything making nobody excel in anything and then it turns out that the content is mainly tackled in one way.. with the handyman’s favourite tool, the hammer.

Making it sort of boring for many people. That’s the complain you do hear from many people.

“You know Frank is a great plumber, but he’s busy so you call Ralph who can get the job done as well though specializes more in electrical.” Or you can call another plumber or John who is a plumber and a electrical but just don’t excels in the two. Now if you have an electrical problem be sure to get Ralph.
But now it’s more like.. yeah just call any handyman. They can all do the job. Oow and make sure they bring there hammer.

“DPS is high because we all wear zerk gear” There is your ‘hammer’ and proof of what people are saying. It’s all DPS. Does not matter who you are as long as you DPS! So you have all these roles but the overall tactic is DPS.
“And if one person is missing then we’re not going to run as smoothly.” Many people don’t have the feeling of having there roles. It’s mainly DPS (just as in your group). Sure they all have there own skills they use but in the end it boils down more to DPS then to tactics and everybody using the things he excels in..

Stop foir a second and think. If I need projectile walls, I can call a mesmer who does it best, a guardian who does it next best, then a thief or ele can do it in a pinch as well. But warrior, no go.

There is that specialization that you seem to want, just it’s more subtle than you want it to be as there are more options than you seem to want.

You’re simply demonstrating your lack of understanding for the full mechanics of the game. Yes, I go as much dps as I can, but I do that in every game. You only need so much defense, and once that’s covered you go all offense. Just so happens that I can cover the full defense needed while still wearing full dps gear. That’s thanks to this being a skill based game where active defense is king.

When I need that wall. But then again, people can also all DPS the hell out of the enemy. I understand the game perfectly, I just wish those specialties would be some more valuable then they are now.

Care to elaborate and give some examples of what you’re thinking? I see those utilities as extremely important so…

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Not-full-Holy-Trinity-but-vary-proffs/first#post4131839

That’s not really specific examples as it pertains to GW2 though.

And with that you’re taking a game that sounds like a trinity in wolfenstein. And a game that has a Rock paper scissors system that is Pokemon. Quite different situations.

GW2 I do take a thief for stealth as it makes the skips much quicker and safer.

I do take a mesmer/guard so I can faceroll bloomhunger without worrying about projectiles.

I do take a warrior for their DPS support, not their DPS (if they didn’t provide dps support we wouldn’t use them).

I choose the professions for their utility, but I spec all my characters gear to be DPS zerk/assassin gear, with strength/scholar/ranger runes and perception/bloodlust/force/night/undead/accuracy/energy sigils. Then my Weapon/trait/skill choices determine the utility I bring.

But again, if you have some good ideas, lets hear them as they apply to gw2. Saying “make it more like gameX” doesn’t really say much.

Wolfenstein a trinity? Lol. Also the Rock paper scissors system is not completely accurate but. Also the pokemon system could work great. In fact I have always found it sort of stupid that you can fight a fire boss with fire just as easily as with water. Making that sot of things depended on each other would also help to define roles and have more interesting game-play / team-play.

I also don’t say make it more as game X, I just show some examples.

Again I don’t say there are no difference I just say that the main point is DPS. You always need DPS and the rest is more an extra. Thats the whole point and you are confirming that the whole time so I’m not even sure why we are in discussion about it.

Well I pointed to those things as examples and I also gave an example how to translate that to GW2. With the fire against fire. Make water against fire work better would be an interesting move. Make the invisibility of a thief (in a dungeon) more interesting then the DPS is. Let him build on invisibility and or speed and or steeling and or taking the identity of the enemy. That sort of things. Make that more of a focus then the DPS with some profession own skills to the side.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Ok, so fire works better against water. What bosses? And wouldn’t that just leave Ele working better in different attuenments? Who else uses water? How would you actually apply this idea to GW2?

Thieves are huge on stealth, but you don’t have to build your spec into it IF your team is coordinated. if you’re highly coordinated they can even do as little as using pistol5 and having the team blast it quickly and move on. And what’s the point of speed when you’re leaving your group behind? How would you apply your ideas to GW2? In what way would they be used?

You’re right though, it doesn’t make sense why we’re discussing the DPS aspect because it’s a constant throughout every MMO i’ve played. You get enough defense, and once that is covered you go all offense. It’s a very simple concept.

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Posted by: Fafnir.5124

Fafnir.5124

Warriors are bad at healing, but good at support, Guardians can have huge DPS.

The ‘trinity’ is Damage, Control, Support

Every class can do dmg (just power or condi dmg), can control (cc’s) and can support (Healing, stealth, banners, buffs, etc)

banners are best healing in game and if you actually trait healing as a warrior you will never die just from the signa giving 6-800hp per sec not counting the 2min stack of healing you put on yourself for an additional 3-400.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

1/2

Toughness already have a role for learning or easy ride when you lack the skills to survive without it. Can you find something that toughness could bring other than aggro or personnal surviability? (AKA Tank). No thank i don’t want that. Good for me, apparently Anet have the same opinions as myself on that.

I think you misunderstood my comment and the reaction is sort of funny. As what I talked about is how it is in GW2. And what I dislike about it. It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around. Thats basically how it works in GW2.

So I agree with you that is not so great. Sadly Anet did design it to be that way.

I said complete right? You saw that right? Anybody can complete anything with any build. It will take them 8 hours, but they will complete it eventually. It can be ppl in super tanky stuff that press 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 or it can be noobs in full dps gear that don’t get how the game work and will be dead and wp every 5 sec the result is the same. They will eventually finish it if they want too. Its will just take a really long time.

They so it really fast. The whole DPS gear seems to be the fastest of them all.
Anyway, as you can see how everybody can easily complete it this way. Then is it really so strange people complain that this way the combat is dull and does not require a lot of teamwork and roles (the two go hand in hand).

Good player will survive in a meta full zerker build wihtout much problem, that’s why we said that the game lack some challenge sometimes. But a lot of ppl are casuals or a bit bad and can’t use that kind of build. They need some passive defense because they lack the knowledge of the encounter or how to best use the strength of your profession so survive even if you have zero defense stats.

Wait, before there where here people arguing that the whole ‘no roles’ argument was just something bad players came up with because they did not know how to play different roles so all went DPS (and rushed true all content.. bud bad players none the less). Now you basically say DPS is only for good players.

Role in GW2 are optional. Meaning that you can complete encounter is different ways. Ya of course there is a general thread that is always the same, but I’ll play different way depending on my profession. You want role that are more different from one another and you want that these role to be important enough that they can’t be replace. I don’t mind the first, I would hate the second.

Well if all roles can replace all other roles (or close to that) that the roles would still be pretty much the same. So now I would not want that. However maybe some roles can indeed take in each other places.

(edited by Devata.6589)