Not full Holy Trinity, but vary proffs?

Not full Holy Trinity, but vary proffs?

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

@Dual
Ahh, that makes more sense now. Can you show me a proper example of your idea? Another game is fine too and youtube link is appreciated.

@Devata
If you aren’t “zerging and DPSing” what do you do personally? Stand still? I’m pretty sure you deal damage thus DPSing. But lets step aside from that.
If you aren’t “zerging” you already wear a more tanky gear set and based on your comments you don’t play a meta build either so, where is the tactic? Ranging? Hahh, no. Melee in immortal tanky builds? What? What do you do exactly? Use this editor, i’m seriously curious.

I don’t do anything as there is nothing to do. Thats the whole point. Isn’t is. So strange question.

My main is a ranger so how can I make use of my (as ranger) specialties to help the group in tactical play. What is my specialty that the team likes to make use of?

Ranged is any required ‘tactic’ in this game. It could be depending on how you design bosses and content but it isn’t.

Going back to the Wolfenstein ET example. Yeah obviously everybody does damage but you also have your own specialties the group needs. The engineer helps to clear the route to the target by blowing up walls or other blockades. Sometimes even blowing up the target. The Field Ops makes sure everybody has enough ammo and also gives support fire (letting a plane drop some bombs). The medic helps people up and get the to 100% HP again. The soldier is there to support in your heavy fire also useful to attack enemy vehicles or clearing an area (flame thrower). Lastly there is Covert Ops who is for your more precise attacks. Using a sniper or steal an enemy identity letting you inside enemy building without having to blow up the entrance.

Of course there are many more examples of other games. Another good example is commandos (1 – 3) there also every class has it’s obvious specialties / role. Now that makes teamwork interesting. So again there is not problem in doing something else as the holy trinity as that reduces the whole combat to 3 roles… Oow and also then there are many classes (what some people now here try to sell as roles but really isn’t) but basically there are 3 roles. Healer, Tank and DPS.

So you bashing the game without playing it? Great. You can leave my internetz now.

ps: Comparing a multiplayer option of an FPS to a instanced PvE content of a MMO is genius Sir. Play the game and you will see the roles and what is the job of every class and build. I’m sure a purehearted lovely person would invite you to a more organized party to show how the game works outside of the pug meta.

pps: Ranger is a great class and have great tools to help at the encounters, but you obviously aren’t familiar with them. Reflects, various buffs and utlities with pets if needed, a blast finisher, aoe swiftness, pure DPS boosts with Spotter and Frost spirit, beastly burst potantial thanks to Signet of Wild, 12 second of invulnerability if needed, nice mobility, a fairly long firefield for prestacking, etc.

(edited by Dalanor.5387)

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

But talking high end PvE how rewarding is it? 90% of any drop feels next to worthless. Part of the problem is were are the rewards for this level of player? The other half is that all other items other then what fits zerker are undesired.

The game’s current reward system is sub-par because they don’t really want players – not even the very good ones making a lot of money out of dungeon/fractal runs.

When this reward system changes and improves players might be more inclined to accept increased difficulty for increased rewards. As of right now the opposition to increased difficulty derives mostly from the fact that every time difficulty was increased rewards were not.

Eg. People don’t want AC to be harder because at the end of the day you’ll still get the same 1.5 gold you got from it when it was easy.

You also say forced to take but speed clears are about efficiency. When you talk about efficiency aren’t defensive, supportive, and control focused play styles included. Or is only offensive focus styles to be the only efficient high end play allowed. Can’t encounters be create that include these as well and efficient players wants then.

Encounters like these can be created but as far as support and control go – I don’t see much more support than what we have now being introduced. And control will never be a thing in this game as long as we have defiant.

Yes control is useful and usable by a team of 5 that coordinates on TS/Vent/etc. But for 90% of players control is not going to work with the current implementation of Defiant.

Also why is it offensive stats can improve active offensive play but defensive stats can’t improve active defence play.

As you say skilled players can mitigate every threat the game poses.

But this is only because active defence is independent and does not require any defensive stats. A truly offensive player has the exact same active defence as a defensive focused player.

Because defensive stats are used to compensate for lack of player skill. Ideally a player will mitigate all threats in the game through active defense.

If the game changes to where one encounter cannot be navigated by the top 5% of players through active defense alone then you can pretty sure bet that encounter will be hell for the rest 95% of players.

Also more needs to be done for high end players, a speed run mode and/or vanquishing mode for dungeons. You just enjoy boss fights, maybe a queen’s gauntlet style arena were you can solo or do group play. It could also have progression were you go around the world killing champions & legendary boss & creatures to collect them for you arena with a similar option like traits too buy. Timed jumping puzzles. All of these with in game leader boards, but this is getting side tracked.

This I agree with – we need hard mode, we need more things to work towards. They had an amazing idea with the Hall of Monuments. Why not have something similar in GW2 to show off our achievements, what we’ve collected as far as items go, and other things.

However you can see they’re not really working towards this. The evidence is clear:

1)FOTM – the only high-end area of PVE has only received recycled content in the past year and the rewards remain as poor as ever. There was even a period in which they were nerfed even more than they were before that patch.

2)Factal Leaderboards was an idea that was thrown around to get people excited and then dropped.

3)Most content that’s been added to the game is a massive spam #1 attack fest that doesn’t require any form of skill or ability.

All I’m really wondering is why these other focused role can’t be included, as there is no problem in the other 2 game modes (sPvP & WvW) at high end play.

Regarding the roles.

Support is in the game – a support guardian does the things in sPVP and PVE. He applies boons, stacks might, provides reflects.

Control is not in PVE – and as long as defiant exists it won’t be a part of PVE.
It’s a thing in WvW and sPVP because players don’t have the Defiant buff.

Conditions are not a part of PVE as much as they could be because of the cap. If the condi cap was fixed somehow I doubt we wouldn’t see a lot of condi specs in PVE.

Defense is a role in PVE – you find defense oriented players in high-level FOTM, in encounters such as Wurm and Teq ( where zerker is useless). They have their roles.
You also see a lot of defensive gear on players who aren’t up to snuff to go full offense.

I would argue there are more players not playing zerker than players playing zerker in GW2 at any given time.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around.

that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible.

There you go.
I assumed, because …
1. Nothing stop you from using a toughness based build and satisfy your obsession with higher armor numbers.
2a. Therefore you are bothered of the fact that “your playstyle” isn’t accepted OR
2b. You want the same killing speed as full offensive builds.

As i said, you still can’t see it. There are roles which can be filled with various tools (read: skills by weapons, utilites or traits). And tell me an MMO where the fights aren’t based around damage thus killing your opponent thus boiling down to go full DPS after every buff, utility and defense is covered.

You are quoting my complains about how it currently works in the game and then say thats what I want. Why would I want that if it’s what I say is wrong with the game?

That makes no sense at all.

The whole game is about DPS DPS and some extra toughness is also welcome (thats why guardian and warrior (Heavy armor) are so much liked).

There I said it again.. How I do NOT like that it only revolves about this.

“As i said, you still can’t see it. There are roles which can be filled with various tools (read: skills by weapons, utilites or traits).”
Still those little difference in the game don’t make real roles, in the end it’s just all about DPS. You know like how Holy Trinity games also have many more classes with also all there own skills and utilities but it boils down to 3 roles (Tank, Healer and DPS).

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

If running organized zerker tactics is so easy, why do people always complain about zerkers being dead? I don’t get it, people always claim 2 things: 1. zerker takes no skill and there is no risk/reward 2. zerkers are always dead. It can be one, or the other, but it can’t be both. Unless it actually does have risk/reward and bad players can’t pull it off.

Also, running in organized groups isn’t mindless zerging. It’s spamming blinds, timing Aegis, stacking might, keeping vuln up, keeping the proper buffs on your group, etc.

Just because it doesn’t happen in PUG groups doesn’t mean that everybody plays as unorganized as you do.

I always play very organized and tactical in games, it’s what I like. However this game simply does not ask for that making it dull combat and thats what the many complains are about. Try to ignore it as you want. Try to tell yourself that people who say that are just stupid pugs noobs who don’t know how to play the game. (you are superior, the others or bad) But it does not do much for the facts.

Yes when doing the brainless zerging there is also buffing and so on going on. Thats what the whole stacking is based on. But you really want to consider that tactical game-play? And then that same ‘tactic’ pretty much for the whole game. Really who are you trying to fool here?

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

@Bezagron

You keep saying that there should be dedicated support that needs to look at support before DPS. But that’s simply not how it works. People will always take the bare minimum they need for support and spec full offense after they covered all their bases. This has always been done in any MMO with a META ever.Even in GW1, in DoA, we had 2 backline support roles, and one of them took certain extra skills to speed up some encounters, depending on which team build you ran. In fact, the META right now is having that person take 1 skill that’s useful in exactly 4 spots in the entire area. Yet, they take it, because it speeds up those 4 encounters enough to make it worth taking that skill, and an extra support skill would be redundant anyway.

People take defensive support in high-level Fractals. A hammer Guardian for perma prot, blind spam on multiple characters usually. Other than that, I don’t really see what more support you need. Forcing people to take support is not good design. Right now, anyone can run anything. You have complete freedom. I really don’t understand why people want to deviate from full freedom in order to get their niche satisfied.

The bolded, I have to say the first line is incorrect based on the following lines. As you say you cover the bases… that IS treating support first, but simply stopping that as soon as you are covered.

A guardian/mesmer is there for support first, and DPS second. Just so happen that with the game as it is, we can run full glass cannon builds with only a few concessions to our DPS in order to have that support we need.

Mesmer can run 66002 or 64004 for DPS, but when they want more reflects they’ll bounce to 64040 or something like that. And the whole time they’re choosing their weapons/traits based on primarily the support they bring with mantras going in the default spots if nothing is needed.

Same for guard. I run hammer so I will go 55040 for max DPS, but I rarely have the opportunity to run that as I usually want Consecrations which means 35042 at a minimum. But I also usually want to cover condition removal in my group personally. So I drop to 33044. The DPS additions are dropped instantly when the utility and support is needed. I only bring the max DPS when I know I’m safe to do so.

Support first, DPS in every spot that you don’t need to choose the support option.

You just validated exactly what I said. Take the bare minimum you need, maybe add some extra leeway in case you don’t trust yourself enough, and spec for full offense after that. You gave several examples to prove exactly that point. Hammer 5/5/0/4/0 is full DPS, but sometimes you need MoC, so you spec 3/5/0/4/2, but besides that 2 in Virtues, you still go full DPS, which is pretty much exactly what I said.

It works the same in every MMO there is, even trinity MMO’s. You take the minimum defense you need, in the form of tanks and backline, and once you got the defense you need, you fill your party with DPSers.

The only difference now is that everyone is a hybrid support/DPS role. How is this bad?

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

@Bezagron

You keep saying that there should be dedicated support that needs to look at support before DPS. But that’s simply not how it works. People will always take the bare minimum they need for support and spec full offense after they covered all their bases. This has always been done in any MMO with a META ever.Even in GW1, in DoA, we had 2 backline support roles, and one of them took certain extra skills to speed up some encounters, depending on which team build you ran. In fact, the META right now is having that person take 1 skill that’s useful in exactly 4 spots in the entire area. Yet, they take it, because it speeds up those 4 encounters enough to make it worth taking that skill, and an extra support skill would be redundant anyway.

People take defensive support in high-level Fractals. A hammer Guardian for perma prot, blind spam on multiple characters usually. Other than that, I don’t really see what more support you need. Forcing people to take support is not good design. Right now, anyone can run anything. You have complete freedom. I really don’t understand why people want to deviate from full freedom in order to get their niche satisfied.

The bolded, I have to say the first line is incorrect based on the following lines. As you say you cover the bases… that IS treating support first, but simply stopping that as soon as you are covered.

A guardian/mesmer is there for support first, and DPS second. Just so happen that with the game as it is, we can run full glass cannon builds with only a few concessions to our DPS in order to have that support we need.

Mesmer can run 66002 or 64004 for DPS, but when they want more reflects they’ll bounce to 64040 or something like that. And the whole time they’re choosing their weapons/traits based on primarily the support they bring with mantras going in the default spots if nothing is needed.

Same for guard. I run hammer so I will go 55040 for max DPS, but I rarely have the opportunity to run that as I usually want Consecrations which means 35042 at a minimum. But I also usually want to cover condition removal in my group personally. So I drop to 33044. The DPS additions are dropped instantly when the utility and support is needed. I only bring the max DPS when I know I’m safe to do so.

Support first, DPS in every spot that you don’t need to choose the support option.

You just validated exactly what I said. Take the bare minimum you need, maybe add some extra leeway in case you don’t trust yourself enough, and spec for full offense after that. You gave several examples to prove exactly that point. Hammer 5/5/0/4/0 is full DPS, but sometimes you need MoC, so you spec 3/5/0/4/2, but besides that 2 in Virtues, you still go full DPS, which is pretty much exactly what I said.

It works the same in every MMO there is, even trinity MMO’s. You take the minimum defense you need, in the form of tanks and backline, and once you got the defense you need, you fill your party with DPSers.

The only difference now is that everyone is a hybrid support/DPS role. How is this bad?

Aye I just thought the first sentences of what I quoted you were a little off. In effect its’ the same thing, but I’ve always viewed it as support first, as that’s the stuff I need to cover, with the DPS filling in around the support I require. You stated it as DPS first, making sacrifices for the support you need. Again either way essentially the same thing

And i’d even go further in other MMOs, I often wore and set up for DPS on my tanks in prevous trinity MMOs… same with healer too. You only need so much defense, and once it’s covered it’s full offense time.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

@Dual
Ahh, that makes more sense now. Can you show me a proper example of your idea? Another game is fine too and youtube link is appreciated.

@Devata
If you aren’t “zerging and DPSing” what do you do personally? Stand still? I’m pretty sure you deal damage thus DPSing. But lets step aside from that.
If you aren’t “zerging” you already wear a more tanky gear set and based on your comments you don’t play a meta build either so, where is the tactic? Ranging? Hahh, no. Melee in immortal tanky builds? What? What do you do exactly? Use this editor, i’m seriously curious.

I don’t do anything as there is nothing to do. Thats the whole point. Isn’t is. So strange question.

My main is a ranger so how can I make use of my (as ranger) specialties to help the group in tactical play. What is my specialty that the team likes to make use of?

Ranged is any required ‘tactic’ in this game. It could be depending on how you design bosses and content but it isn’t.

Going back to the Wolfenstein ET example. Yeah obviously everybody does damage but you also have your own specialties the group needs. The engineer helps to clear the route to the target by blowing up walls or other blockades. Sometimes even blowing up the target. The Field Ops makes sure everybody has enough ammo and also gives support fire (letting a plane drop some bombs). The medic helps people up and get the to 100% HP again. The soldier is there to support in your heavy fire also useful to attack enemy vehicles or clearing an area (flame thrower). Lastly there is Covert Ops who is for your more precise attacks. Using a sniper or steal an enemy identity letting you inside enemy building without having to blow up the entrance.

Of course there are many more examples of other games. Another good example is commandos (1 – 3) there also every class has it’s obvious specialties / role. Now that makes teamwork interesting. So again there is not problem in doing something else as the holy trinity as that reduces the whole combat to 3 roles… Oow and also then there are many classes (what some people now here try to sell as roles but really isn’t) but basically there are 3 roles. Healer, Tank and DPS.

So you bashing the game without playing it? Great. You can leave my internetz now.

ps: Comparing a multiplayer option of an FPS to a instanced PvE content of a MMO is genius Sir. Play the game and you will see the roles and what is the job of every class and build. I’m sure a purehearted lovely person would invite you to a more organized party to show how the game works outside of the pug meta.

pps: Ranger is a great class and have great tools to help at the encounters, but you obviously aren’t familiar with them. Reflects, various buffs and utlities with pets if needed, a blast finisher, aoe swiftness, pure DPS boosts with Spotter and Frost spirit, beastly burst potantial thanks to Signet of Wild, 12 second of invulnerability if needed, nice mobility, a fairly long firefield for prestacking, etc.

“So you bashing the game without playing it? Great. You can leave my internetz now.” So you ask me what tactic I use. I say I do nothing as there is nothing to do. obviously talking about the tactics as thats what you ask me. And then you turn that into I do not play the game.

I play the game but there is no real tactics going on. I just do what everybody does. Have a zerker set (and s knigth’s set mainly for WvW). And when playing with a group it is mainly stack and DPS. I don’t consider that tactic but not doing that will result in a lot of negative reactions. What is sort of understandable as thats how it works in this game. But no I do not consider that tactics so if it comes to tactics I do the same as everybody.. nothing really because there is no requirement for tactics it’s just stack and DPS.

And if it comes to roles the Wolfenstein ET example works just fine. I added that (and commando’s) to add some flavor as the most obvious other example is the holy trinity and I want to make clear that it’s not like I just want to go back to that. In addition I also gave the Pokemon example what is a RPG and would work fine as an MMO.

And yes a Ranger is a great class and I am very familiar with it. It’s also great for solo play. However again when you get into team-play it still burns down to DPS. Nobody is going to ask me for my range or pet ability (the two most obvious things that make a ranger, a ranger.).

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around.

that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible

Grammar. It suggested wishful thinking, correcting yourself after the 4th time is a bit too late, but whatever. At least now i understand what you meant. It’s pug perception, they want heavy classes mostly, because they are dumb and want to ensure a good run, since those two classes have more room for error.

With this and your above mentioned questions about your own class it’s truly obvious you never had a proper good run as a ranger and most likely you get kicked thanks to your class anyway. No offense. Am i right? I can count on my one hand how many proper SSS ranger i’ve met in pugs.

Strawman at it’s finest. I could say the same about your Wolfenstein example. Medic can heal, yeah, but who cares, you just shoot the enemy anyway and the whole game is about pew pew. See? I can dumb it down too if i wanted to.

To your latest post.
Tactics solved months ago =/= non-existent tactics. Think about it. If you run the content for a gazillion of times, it becomes so trivial, your muscle memory will solve it.
The only thing we would both agree i guess, is the nerf of FGS. It’s such a powerful tool in the hands of the most dumbest player too, it ain’t fun anymore.

I still can’t see why your examples are better, especially Pokemon with it’s rock-paper-scissor mechanics.

You should solve the situation by yourself as a ranger. Your party lacks fury? Get a red moa. The party lacks might? Get a jungle stalker. Need condi removal? Almighty brown bear becomes handy. Get it?
Ranger =/= archer.
He is a ranger too.
The sad thing even Anet made a bad marketing with the class and suggested at the character creation that they are bow oriented, meanwhile the whole game punishes ranged damage (less risk -> less damage), especially rangers longbow and mesmer GS.

@Jerus & Errant

In other games gear threadmill was always an issue, but going with the same analogy the majority of dungeons here are like in other MMO’s when you run it on a outgeared hybrid class. After you reach a certain gear treshold in other games (and routine with the encounters of course) it becomes trivial. I had planty of pug HC dungeon runs in WoW when DPS characters tanked the whole instance, because they had so OP gear it doesn’t mattered anymore.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

@Jerus & Errant

In other games gear threadmill was always an issue, but going with the same analogy the majority of dungeons here are like in other MMO’s when you run it on a outgeared hybrid class. After you reach a certain gear treshold in other games (and routine with the encounters of course) it becomes trivial. I had planty of pug HC dungeon runs in WoW when DPS characters tanked the whole instance, because they had so OP gear it doesn’t mattered anymore.

I’d say it’s more than just the gear, but also the design intent. Most developers don’t seem to tune things to the highest most skilled players. So, there is plenty of leeway designed into the games. If you utilize this leeway to slip in more damage you get faster runs before you’re even overgeared But you’re right, overgearing opens it up even more.

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

I play the game but there is no real tactics going on. I just do what everybody does. Have a zerker set (and s knigth’s set mainly for WvW). And when playing with a group it is mainly stack and DPS. I don’t consider that tactic but not doing that will result in a lot of negative reactions. What is sort of understandable as thats how it works in this game. But no I do not consider that tactics so if it comes to tactics I do the same as everybody.. nothing really because there is no requirement for tactics it’s just stack and DPS.

So, what you’re really saying is that you have no idea how tactics work and why they work, because you “just do what everybody does”.

Because, when I play the game, I know what I’m doing (or at least, I usually do), and why I’m executing the tactics. It’s not just “stack and DPS”, it’s pulling, might stacking, blind spamming, timed Aegis and condi cleanse, proper use of CC, proper DPS rotations…

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

I’d like to add, do people know what stacking is?

Stacking is using LoS to get the mob to go where you want it to go and staying close together to utilize the short range boon sharing.

dictionary

tac·tics [tak-tiks] Show IPA
noun
1.
( usually used with a singular verb ) the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle.
2.
( used with a plural verb ) the maneuvers themselves.
3.
( used with a singular verb ) any mode of procedure for gaining advantage or success.

So we’re using LoS to get mobs to move to where we want, using a procedure to gain an advantage, maneuvering ourselves to force the maneuvering of our enemies.

It may not be what some people want, but stacking IS a tactic.

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

Harper At this stage I have to strongly agree we want the same things for high end PvE players.

There needs to be that challenge and rewards that can only be received for completing that challenge.

It’s not like arenanet can’t create these high end challenges Liadri is one of the best example’s already in game. Even with players figuring out optimal builds you as a player still need a higher level of skill.

The more I think about support at truly high end play the more I find it. Control & defensive play not so much but that’s an encounter design and game mechanic problem. What I think I was thinking about is the stack & burn game play. This type of play is fire and forget with support with little to no engagement in the fight. Just BURN!

What I’m looking for, even in speed clears. Are that players still need to engage and fight the bosses & fight through the path to the bosses. None of this burning and total skipping. You still need to be on your toes throughout the whole dungeon (this is not saying some don’t exist).

Skipping, again this is a personal opinion but when I think about dungeons I think about a battle the whole way through. Not that parts can’t be skipped but not the Oo look just run pass and the mob will stop following me. Run to the sub boss and every mob aggroed on the way has to be fought as well. Safe spots could be designed for breathers but your unable to engage mobs from there (rest spot only).

This is also one reason I would like a speed clear mode for dungeons.This mode is designed with speed clears in mind. You as the player want to skip and fight the final boss to get the fastest time & reward. The designer wants to place obstacle in the way of the players that they then need to complete which slows them down.

  • Standard speed mode – you know the path and encounters.
  • High end speed mode – you have an idea but get to find out as your playing it. This can randomise the travel path, encounters, bosses, change mobs & boss’s skill set slightly keeping style & theme but not total random but swaps between different skill set so you can learn but until engaged your not sure which one. But you select the overall style & theme of the path. This allows some control and knowledge to create builds.

Now leader boards and appropriate rewards need to be included other why do it more then once to say you can.

This is were we differ as I believe encounters can be designed at high end that would want defensive & control focused players. Could a group of all offensive focused players be able to complete this content. I say maybe and no.

If they can then your the elite of the elite but you need an absolutely perfect run, anything less then perfect and it’s a wipe. And no as there’s content already for the offensive focus group, I’m not saying don’t add more content that offensive focus groups are the best choice but that there should be content were they’re not. But if you efficiency focus I see no problem with requiring different focused play styles to achieve absolute efficiency, as your already going to exclude the non efficient play styles as should be the case.

Edits to grammar & sentences.

(edited by Bezagron.7352)

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

“If i need stealth i….” The point is that the main thing you always need is DPS. Would be really great if you could mix it with some toughness.

It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around.

that is however what seems to be the main requirement in the game, DPS and some toughness if possible

Grammar. It suggested wishful thinking, correcting yourself after the 4th time is a bit too late, but whatever. At least now i understand what you meant. It’s pug perception, they want heavy classes mostly, because they are dumb and want to ensure a good run, since those two classes have more room for error.

With this and your above mentioned questions about your own class it’s truly obvious you never had a proper good run as a ranger and most likely you get kicked thanks to your class anyway. No offense. Am i right? I can count on my one hand how many proper SSS ranger i’ve met in pugs.

Strawman at it’s finest. I could say the same about your Wolfenstein example. Medic can heal, yeah, but who cares, you just shoot the enemy anyway and the whole game is about pew pew. See? I can dumb it down too if i wanted to.

To your latest post.
Tactics solved months ago =/= non-existent tactics. Think about it. If you run the content for a gazillion of times, it becomes so trivial, your muscle memory will solve it.
The only thing we would both agree i guess, is the nerf of FGS. It’s such a powerful tool in the hands of the most dumbest player too, it ain’t fun anymore.

I still can’t see why your examples are better, especially Pokemon with it’s rock-paper-scissor mechanics.
~

It just says what it is supposed to say. Did not ‘correct’ anything.

The game requires mainly DPS and it would be great to also have some extra toughness.

And was that not clear in the first sentence it should have been clear the second time. Especially because I said I did think you misunderstood me. The part you conveniently left out when quoting me.

I think you misunderstood my comment and the reaction is sort of funny. As what I talked about is how it is in GW2. And what I dislike about it. It’s all about DPS and it would be nice to also bring some toughness around. Thats basically how it works in GW2.

So if it was still not clear this second time it are really no my grammar skills but your reading skills that seem to be the problem. or you are just trolling. That is also possible.

“It suggested wishful thinking” That is correct. Players do not seem to demand the toughness thats more of an extra. Wishful thinking somebody could also bring that into the mix. Aka preferring for example a warrior over a ranger.

Anyway enough about this.

“you never had a proper good run as a ranger and most likely you get kicked thanks to your class anyway. No offense. Am i right?” I have had many successful runs and was never kicked. Of-course it helps if you never run with pugs but always with your guild.

However when trying multiple tactics it turns out that in the end it always just boils down to as much as DPS as possible. It’s also where the whole stack and DPS approach in this game has come from. It simply almost allays is the best working approach. That is nothing to do with pugs or noobs or whatever. In fact if you do not want to do that you are considered a noob. What sort of makes sense looking at if from a stand-point that a ‘noob’ had not yet discovered that that indeed is the best way. Stacking basically is for the buffs and the rest all just comes down to as much as DPS as possible.

“See? I can dumb it down too if i wanted to.” Yeah but it would not be accurate while for GW2 it is very accurate.

“I still can’t see why your examples are better, especially Pokemon with it’s rock-paper-scissor mechanics.” Well lets take that rock paper scissor tactic and converting it to GW2 it simply means that different bosses have different specialties and different classes have all different specialties that might be good to counter those abilities the boss has.

If you would play Pokemon and go into a arena with a mixed group of enemies and you only take fire Pokemon with you, you will not be very likely to be victorious. But a mixed group might be victorious using every Pokemon’s special ability. You seem to be looking at that from a 1 to 1 match but I am talking about team-play all the time.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

I play the game but there is no real tactics going on. I just do what everybody does. Have a zerker set (and s knigth’s set mainly for WvW). And when playing with a group it is mainly stack and DPS. I don’t consider that tactic but not doing that will result in a lot of negative reactions. What is sort of understandable as thats how it works in this game. But no I do not consider that tactics so if it comes to tactics I do the same as everybody.. nothing really because there is no requirement for tactics it’s just stack and DPS.

So, what you’re really saying is that you have no idea how tactics work and why they work, because you “just do what everybody does”.

Because, when I play the game, I know what I’m doing (or at least, I usually do), and why I’m executing the tactics. It’s not just “stack and DPS”, it’s pulling, might stacking, blind spamming, timed Aegis and condi cleanse, proper use of CC, proper DPS rotations…

Oow I understand just fine how and why that works. I also explained that multiple time in this thread I think. And one of main the reasons it works is because everything is so much based on DPS, the stacking is indeed for the buffing. And thats basically how you can defeat 90% of the content in this game. And thats what people are complaining about if they say it’s all about DPS. It does not make that any better if you understand why it works.

I do but does that make the combat more interesting because I do? Does it make teamwork more interesting because you understand why it works? Does it make the fight more intense because you know it works? Does it make the content more fun because you know why it works? No sorry it doesn’t.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

I’d like to add, do people know what stacking is?

Stacking is using LoS to get the mob to go where you want it to go and staying close together to utilize the short range boon sharing.

dictionary

tac·tics [tak-tiks] Show IPA
noun
1.
( usually used with a singular verb ) the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle.
2.
( used with a plural verb ) the maneuvers themselves.
3.
( used with a singular verb ) any mode of procedure for gaining advantage or success.

So we’re using LoS to get mobs to move to where we want, using a procedure to gain an advantage, maneuvering ourselves to force the maneuvering of our enemies.

It may not be what some people want, but stacking IS a tactic.

Well yeah and focusing on DPS is as well a tactic. But if thats all thats to it, it’s not a very interesting tactic. Also if that seems to be the only tactic or at least for 90% of the content it also does not make for very tactical game-play overall because ones you understand this one very boring ‘tactic’ thats about it.

You see thats where the complains are coming from.

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

I play the game but there is no real tactics going on. I just do what everybody does.

So, what you’re really saying is that you have no idea how tactics work and why they work, because you “just do what everybody does”.

Because, when I play the game, I know what I’m doing (or at least, I usually do), and why I’m executing the tactics. It’s not just “stack and DPS”, it’s pulling, might stacking, blind spamming, timed Aegis and condi cleanse, proper use of CC, proper DPS rotations…

Oow I understand just fine how and why that works. I also explained that multiple time in this thread I think. And one of main the reasons it works is because everything is so much based on DPS, the stacking is indeed for the buffing. And thats basically how you can defeat 90% of the content in this game. And thats what people are complaining about if they say it’s all about DPS. It does not make that any better if you understand why it works.

I do but does that make the combat more interesting because I do? Does it make teamwork more interesting because you understand why it works? Does it make the fight more intense because you know it works? Does it make the content more fun because you know why it works? No sorry it doesn’t.

But you said there is no tactics going on (I left the one bolded sentence). So, you’re saying that stacking buffs, using terrain to your advantage, proper use of utilities in order to mitigate damage, etc, are not tactics?

Or are they just not tactics because you don’t like them?

As for everything being based on DPS. This has been the same concept in every game ever. Every META team build in every game ever focused on bringing as much DPS as they possibly can in order to beat the content faster. The way it’s executed is just different.

I’ll refer to GW1 as my example, and to the area I played the most and know the best: DoA.

The teambuild existed of 2 tanks, a rezbot monk, a bonder elementalist and 4 spikers. Now, the builds and tactics in DoA changed a lot over the years. I watched many of them change, so I know why they changed as well. As for the basics: most of DoA existed tanks doing pulls of large amounts of enemies and balling them up in various ways, and then spiking them down in a couple of seconds.

Back in the days, when there was still a lot of fine tuning going on and you didn’t have a large player base of experienced spikers, spikes would be bad. So people used to take a CC skill ‘Deep Freeze’, which was a horrible skill, but it CC’ed the enemies and slowed them down, so when spikes went bad, people still had some extra time to spike the enemies before they reached the team.

This got changed eventually, because the skill was a huge energy drain, a waste of a second profession, and you could easily swap it out for more DPS.

Same goes for the rezbot bar. It used to be full-on healing and support, but it wasn’t needed. Really, that bar needed to have 4 skills on it, all the other ones were open for more useful stuff. So, they changed the bar around to take skills that gave DPS, or could speed up certain parts with shadow steps, etc. Same goes for the spiker bars. They got updated all the time to switch for more DPS.

That’s simply how a game works. Once you’re familiar with the basics, you’re going to fine tune in order to increase your DPS, or take utility to speed up the run (in DoA this was mainly done through splits, hence also the 2 tanks).

People seem to cry doom and gloom because the games endgame is evolving to optimize DPS and push clear times down through various tactics. But that’s just the natural process of any game, the same happened in GW1, and the same will happen if Anet releases new content: it will take some time to get all the mechanics down, maybe there will be some struggles, but once we figure it all out, it will be back to optimizing for DPS and pushing clear times.

Good luck finding me a game where this didn’t happen.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

“But you said there is no tactics going on ”
No I don’t really consider that tactics. However by definition he is right it is a tactic thats true. Thats also what I said before, I do not consider that a tactic (there is a reason I choose my words like that and I don’t just say thats by definition not a tactic). Because it’s so basic and all the same.

“So, you’re saying that stacking buffs, using terrain to your advantage, proper use of utilities in order to mitigate damage, etc, are not tactics? ” Thats a very nice way of explaining stack and DPS. Very well done. Still it does not make it any more interesting when using it. Again, yes by definition that is a tactic but it’s a easy boring tactic and it’s the same one almost all over the game. So we got this one ‘tactic’ all over the place. You see thats why people complain about combat being sort of dull. PvE at least and WvW is very similar.

“As for everything being based on DPS. This has been the same concept in every game ever.” There is a difference between DPS being the focus everywhere or DPS always having a role in every game. And then no it’s not always a focus. If we take the holy trinity example it’s very much tank, heal and DPS. That are 3 different roles that are equally important to the game. The tactic depends on the content but always needs those 3 roles. There is no focus on DPS there. No good healer means you are not likely to complete, same for tank and DPS. You need them all and so tactics resolve around them all.

I am not familiar with your examples so I have no idea if those do all resolved about DPS as much as stuff does in GW2. However it’s untrue that thats the case in every game. Let me also give some good examples in GW2 if it comes to tactics. While not a great fan of how Tequatl is set up (because it’s in the open map and so hard to organize, but thats another topic) there are multiple roles. The stack and DPS is there but only for those hitting the toe of Tequatl. Turrets have a complete different role (yes part of there role also exist within the stack and DPS ’tactic) especially if you also take the defending of the turrets into consideration.

Also with Wintersday the PvP mini-game had different roles with there own abilities that did allow for different tactics. Some classes where better for defending, other better for attacks and other better for running the present to your base. People work together using there own abilities. I did even see some other examples in dungeons that where interesting however they where extremely simple (beginning of dredge fractal in FotM) or in the end the easiest way to beat it was again DPS.

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

So we got this one ‘tactic’ all over the place. You see thats why people complain about combat being sort of dull. PvE at least and WvW is very similar.

In GW1 and most other trinity games, we also had one tactic all over the place: ball and spike. Or, tank and spank, how ever you want to call it. For some reason, this was better?

“As for everything being based on DPS. This has been the same concept in every game ever.” There is a difference between DPS being the focus everywhere or DPS always having a role in every game. And then no it’s not always a focus. If we take the holy trinity example it’s very much tank, heal and DPS. That are 3 different roles that are equally important to the game. The tactic depends on the content but always needs those 3 roles. There is no focus on DPS there. No good healer means you are not likely to complete, same for tank and DPS. You need them all and so tactics resolve around them all.

And yet, you still fail to realize that the only reasons tankers and healers existed in trinity games was to maximize DPS. They existed to keep aggro from the DPSers and heal them up if need be, or heal the tanks, whatever, so the DPSers had an easier time to DPS things down. Those 3 different roles were all equally important to maximize DPS. The focus was still DPS, just in another disguise.

While not a great fan of how Tequatl is set up (because it’s in the open map and so hard to organize, but thats another topic) there are multiple roles. The stack and DPS is there but only for those hitting the toe of Tequatl. Turrets have a complete different role (yes part of there role also exist within the stack and DPS ’tactic) especially if you also take the defending of the turrets into consideration.

Guess what the turrents and defending of it ultimately results into? Increasing DPS. I was going to link you to the Hardened Scales page on wiki, because I mistakenly thought that for every stack he took less damage, but the idea still stands. If he gets 20 stacks, he becomes invulnerable. The turrents exist to 1. keep the boss vulnerable 2. keep the players alive by taking out poison fields. Both of these mechanics ensure an upkeep of DPS. It’s again in a little disguise, but it all boils down to the same idea.

I did even see some other examples in dungeons that where interesting however they where extremely simple (beginning of dredge fractal in FotM) or in the end the easiest way to beat it was again DPS.

The cage in Dredge is actually a really good example of a mechanic in game that isn’t based on DPS. DPS isn’t going to help you there much, since you’ll have to take out some dredge, but can’t kill them all, since they’ll respawn if you do. Same goes for the turret and bomb event, no DPS focus there either. But they’re more an exception than the rule.

I don’t mind mechanics like dredge that don’t let you focus on DPS, given that they’re interesting and engaging (things the dredge events aren’t all that much in my eyes, even after the changes). But, in the end, you can’t design an entire dungeon without encounters that exist of “do damage to X until it dies”. There might be mechanics in place you need to use to enhance the damage done (Bjarl for example), but in the end, it’s all the same idea: “make sure X dies”.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

So we got this one ‘tactic’ all over the place. You see thats why people complain about combat being sort of dull. PvE at least and WvW is very similar.

In GW1 and most other trinity games, we also had one tactic all over the place: ball and spike. Or, tank and spank, how ever you want to call it. For some reason, this was better?

“As for everything being based on DPS. This has been the same concept in every game ever.” There is a difference between DPS being the focus everywhere or DPS always having a role in every game. And then no it’s not always a focus. If we take the holy trinity example it’s very much tank, heal and DPS. That are 3 different roles that are equally important to the game. The tactic depends on the content but always needs those 3 roles. There is no focus on DPS there. No good healer means you are not likely to complete, same for tank and DPS. You need them all and so tactics resolve around them all.

And yet, you still fail to realize that the only reasons tankers and healers existed in trinity games was to maximize DPS. They existed to keep aggro from the DPSers and heal them up if need be, or heal the tanks, whatever, so the DPSers had an easier time to DPS things down. Those 3 different roles were all equally important to maximize DPS. The focus was still DPS, just in another disguise.

While not a great fan of how Tequatl is set up (because it’s in the open map and so hard to organize, but thats another topic) there are multiple roles. The stack and DPS is there but only for those hitting the toe of Tequatl. Turrets have a complete different role (yes part of there role also exist within the stack and DPS ’tactic) especially if you also take the defending of the turrets into consideration.

Guess what the turrents and defending of it ultimately results into? Increasing DPS. I was going to link you to the Hardened Scales page on wiki, because I mistakenly thought that for every stack he took less damage, but the idea still stands. If he gets 20 stacks, he becomes invulnerable. The turrents exist to 1. keep the boss vulnerable 2. keep the players alive by taking out poison fields. Both of these mechanics ensure an upkeep of DPS. It’s again in a little disguise, but it all boils down to the same idea.

I did even see some other examples in dungeons that where interesting however they where extremely simple (beginning of dredge fractal in FotM) or in the end the easiest way to beat it was again DPS.

The cage in Dredge is actually a really good example of a mechanic in game that isn’t based on DPS. DPS isn’t going to help you there much, since you’ll have to take out some dredge, but can’t kill them all, since they’ll respawn if you do. Same goes for the turret and bomb event, no DPS focus there either. But they’re more an exception than the rule.

I don’t mind mechanics like dredge that don’t let you focus on DPS, given that they’re interesting and engaging (things the dredge events aren’t all that much in my eyes, even after the changes). But, in the end, you can’t design an entire dungeon without encounters that exist of “do damage to X until it dies”. There might be mechanics in place you need to use to enhance the damage done (Bjarl for example), but in the end, it’s all the same idea: “make sure X dies”.

All you are saying here is. “you need damage to kill the enemy” and act as if that means the focus is always on DPS. That is not true.

“The cage in Dredge is actually a really good example of a mechanic in game that isn’t based on DPS.” That is what I said. That was the good example (but really easy one). You see how it does not always have to resolve around DPS.

“But they’re more an exception than the rule.” Thats the point I am trying to make.

“(things the dredge events aren’t all that much in my eyes, even after the changes)” indeed, to easy but a good example of other forms of tactics.

""do damage to X until it dies". ~ “make sure X dies”" Yeah thats what I say. You act as if ‘you need damage to kill somebody’ is the same as focusing on DPS. Thats not the case.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

You seem to forget that dungeons and raids are a team effort. Although your tank and your healer aren’t focusing on DPS, in the end, it’s a means to an end to boost your team DPS. Same goes for current team builds. Many meta builds sacrifice personal DPS in order to boost team DPS for example.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

When you’re speed running though you are.

I did it in DCUO

I did it in EQ

I’m doing it now in GW2.

You only focus on tanking up until you have it covered, if you’re tanking things and you never really are stressed why wouldn’t you swap out a skill or some gear to get moer damage? You’re looking for speed right?

Same with healer, if the heals are more tahn covered why wouldn’t you bring DPS instead?

The speed run mentality is about efficiency, at this point everyone is kinda focused on just that since the content is so old and so well known.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

You seem to forget that dungeons and raids are a team effort. Although your tank and your healer aren’t focusing on DPS, in the end, it’s a means to an end to boost your team DPS. Same goes for current team builds. Many meta builds sacrifice personal DPS in order to boost team DPS for example.

No I did not forget that. In fact the whole discussion was about teamwork. No the team effort is to kill the enemy. Yes that means he needs damage (well thats not always true but usually). But thats still something else as that everybody is focusing on DPS. Damage per Second! In GW2 everybody is just focusing on DPS. In fact there is not much of real team effort going on. Not like it is in the HT example (or one of the many other examples)

(edited by Devata.6589)

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

You seem to forget that dungeons and raids are a team effort. Although your tank and your healer aren’t focusing on DPS, in the end, it’s a means to an end to boost your team DPS. Same goes for current team builds. Many meta builds sacrifice personal DPS in order to boost team DPS for example.

No I did not forget that. In fact the whole discussion was about teamwork. No the team effort is to kill the enemy. Yes that means he needs damage (well thats not always true but usually). But thats still something else as that everybody is focusing on DPS. Damage per Second! In GW2 everybody is just focusing on DPS. In fact there is not much of real team effort going on. Not like it is in the HT example (or one of the many other examples)

People might not have been focusing on DPS, but their purpose in the team was to raise DPS. I don’t see how this is any different from the current situation.

Not to mention, the way GW2 works is a lot more engaging than any trinity game was. Your team utility is spread out over the entire team, everyone has his little purpose: might stacking, fury, blinds, interrupts, aegis, banners, pulling… Those are all little things that go on in organized groups that people focus on besides doing DPS. They’re all things that are meant to boost team DPS, but they’re other things too.

In a trinity game you’d have your healer which was not doing direct damage, but focusing on keeping the tank/team alive in order to keep DPS up. This wasn’t a more interesting design if you ask me. I could play a UA monk in FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA while completely kittenfaced drunk. As long as I was able to keep my eyes open, and had the motor functions available to click some skills every now and then, I’d be fine. I could tank drunk as well, but not as drunk as I could still UA. The role was boring as hell. In GW2, you don’t have a boring heal bot. You can play one, but one isn’t mandated by the game.

Same goes for tanking. Although it was by far the most fun role in DoA (since I could do some really funky YOLO stuff, and just goof around in general), if I wasn’t being an idiot while doing so, it was a pretty boring role that existed of pulling and balling mobs. I just made it fun. In GW2, everyone is constantly engaged in combat, which, imo, makes for a far more interesting combat system than a trinity MMO with “designated roles”.

As for not much of a team effort going on, that just proves that you are completely oblivious as to how organized groups work.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

You seem to forget that dungeons and raids are a team effort. Although your tank and your healer aren’t focusing on DPS, in the end, it’s a means to an end to boost your team DPS. Same goes for current team builds. Many meta builds sacrifice personal DPS in order to boost team DPS for example.

No I did not forget that. In fact the whole discussion was about teamwork. No the team effort is to kill the enemy. Yes that means he needs damage (well thats not always true but usually). But thats still something else as that everybody is focusing on DPS. Damage per Second! In GW2 everybody is just focusing on DPS. In fact there is not much of real team effort going on. Not like it is in the HT example (or one of the many other examples)

People might not have been focusing on DPS, but their purpose in the team was to raise DPS. I don’t see how this is any different from the current situation.

Not to mention, the way GW2 works is a lot more engaging than any trinity game was. Your team utility is spread out over the entire team, everyone has his little purpose: might stacking, fury, blinds, interrupts, aegis, banners, pulling… Those are all little things that go on in organized groups that people focus on besides doing DPS. They’re all things that are meant to boost team DPS, but they’re other things too.

In a trinity game you’d have your healer which was not doing direct damage, but focusing on keeping the tank/team alive in order to keep DPS up. This wasn’t a more interesting design if you ask me. I could play a UA monk in FoW/Deep/Urgoz/DoA while completely kittenfaced drunk. As long as I was able to keep my eyes open, and had the motor functions available to click some skills every now and then, I’d be fine. I could tank drunk as well, but not as drunk as I could still UA. The role was boring as hell. In GW2, you don’t have a boring heal bot. You can play one, but one isn’t mandated by the game.

Same goes for tanking. Although it was by far the most fun role in DoA (since I could do some really funky YOLO stuff, and just goof around in general), if I wasn’t being an idiot while doing so, it was a pretty boring role that existed of pulling and balling mobs. I just made it fun. In GW2, everyone is constantly engaged in combat, which, imo, makes for a far more interesting combat system than a trinity MMO with “designated roles”.

As for not much of a team effort going on, that just proves that you are completely oblivious as to how organized groups work.

No the purpose was to kill the enemy what was NOT only achieved by all focusing on DPS.

“Not to mention, the way GW2 works is a lot more engaging than any trinity game was.” I guess everybody complaining about dull combat and lack of roles and that it’s all DPS, DPS DPS and talking about 1, 1,1,1 is disagreeing with you on that I guess. But it’s nice you like it.

Anyway it’s not so much about trinity. We all know GW2 would not have a trinity in the game. It’s the lack of roles that make team-play combat dull for many people.

“everyone has his little purpose” At least is honest of you to call it ‘little’. As the problem is that everybody’s real purpose is DPS (aka lack of roles).

“In a trinity game you’d have your healer which was not doing direct damage, but focusing on keeping the tank/team alive in order to keep DPS up. This wasn’t a more interesting design if you ask me.” Now thats not honest. As every class in a trinity in addition to it’s role the player belongs to (tank, healer or DPS) also has it’s other little things he can help with. Thats the same as in GW2.

“As for not much of a team effort going on, that just proves that you are completely oblivious as to how organized groups work.” Yeah ‘All stack!! BUFF!!!, DPS!!’ No offense but thats your general ‘organized groups work’. You might consider that heavy team effort. Other people prefer some more then that. But the problem is that in most cases this in fact is the best tactic.

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

“Not to mention, the way GW2 works is a lot more engaging than any trinity game was.” I guess everybody complaining about dull combat and lack of roles and that it’s all DPS, DPS DPS and talking about 1, 1,1,1 is disagreeing with you on that I guess. But it’s nice you like it.

I personally think that’s mainly because most of those people complaining about lack of roles and just 1,1,1,1 are oblivious and terrible players who have no idea how to properly play the game. It might also explain why there’s so many of them, since the skill and knowledge of the average player in the game is quite abysmal.

“everyone has his little purpose” At least is honest of you to call it ‘little’. As the problem is that everybody’s real purpose is DPS (aka lack of roles).

You call it lack of roles, I call it hybridization. Everyone is a hybrid DPS/support/controller. Just because a lot of people fail to play that hybrid design properly doesn’t mean it isn’t there. It means a lot of people are bad at this game.

As for trinity games giving you more of a purpose, I highly disagree, but since I’m not going to repeat my opinion in the matter at nauseam, I guess we can agree to disagree.

“As for not much of a team effort going on, that just proves that you are completely oblivious as to how organized groups work.” Yeah ‘All stack!! BUFF!!!, DPS!!’ No offense but thats your general ‘organized groups work’. You might consider that heavy team effort. Other people prefer some more then that. But the problem is that in most cases this in fact is the best tactic.

The difference with a trinity game was that your DPS team got carried by your tanks. I don’t see how it was such a bigger team effort. If you had bad tanks in DoA, you were SOL, and you’d fail. The DPSers were just there to kill things, it was hardly engaging (don’t get me wrong, I loved DoA, but calling it engaging as anything other than tank would be delusional, unless you were doing some funky tactics).

A team effort where everyone contributes equally and is expected to do their fair share of support, buffing and DPS is quite a bit more engaging, and team oriented than waiting for your tank to ball up or pull the enemies and DPSing them down.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Well those terrible players who have no idea how to properly play are doing just fine completing everything very easily and fast.

Anyway it’s the current system is obviously not bothering you but I do hope you understand where they are coming from. And not thats not just because they are all just bad players. However, if thats what you like to believe thats of course also fine.

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Don’t feed that ignorant troll.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

A tank only exists to keep the DPS people alive. They’re what matters the most.

So yes – while tanking your are doing DPS. Indirectly – through the people pushing it out while you hold the boss from killing them.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

No the purpose was to kill the enemy what was NOT only achieved by all focusing on DPS.

“Not to mention, the way GW2 works is a lot more engaging than any trinity game was.” I guess everybody complaining about dull combat and lack of roles and that it’s all DPS, DPS DPS and talking about 1, 1,1,1 is disagreeing with you on that I guess. But it’s nice you like it.

Anyway it’s not so much about trinity. We all know GW2 would not have a trinity in the game. It’s the lack of roles that make team-play combat dull for many people.

“everyone has his little purpose” At least is honest of you to call it ‘little’. As the problem is that everybody’s real purpose is DPS (aka lack of roles).

“In a trinity game you’d have your healer which was not doing direct damage, but focusing on keeping the tank/team alive in order to keep DPS up. This wasn’t a more interesting design if you ask me.” Now thats not honest. As every class in a trinity in addition to it’s role the player belongs to (tank, healer or DPS) also has it’s other little things he can help with. Thats the same as in GW2.

“As for not much of a team effort going on, that just proves that you are completely oblivious as to how organized groups work.” Yeah ‘All stack!! BUFF!!!, DPS!!’ No offense but thats your general ‘organized groups work’. You might consider that heavy team effort. Other people prefer some more then that. But the problem is that in most cases this in fact is the best tactic.

And by everybody complaining you mean the half a dozen people who keep making these threads while the majority of the player base is actually playing the game and not even bothering with the forums.

The “dull team play” you mention is only dull for people who like to be chained to other people.

I like GW2 because it allows me to be independent – my party can suck but if I’m good I can carry the fight and not have to rely on bad players.

The game has teamplay and you’ll do much better with an organized team of good players playing together but it doesn’t have the kind of teamplay where you’ll fail of others fail.

You’re not chained together with other people through artificial constructs like tank and healer and that is a GOOD THING.

I cannot stress that enough. Guild Wars 2 gives you freedom to play and do well on your own while still being together with others working towards the same goal.

In GW1 and other “forced role” games what happens is that if the person on role x is bad the whole party will suffer.

In GW2 the party does suffer if one player is bad but not nearly as much.

You fail to realize that every role in gaming comes down to DPS. From the moment health bars and the death of an enemy when the bar has reached zero every player in every game has been one form or another of DPS.

You’re DPSing when you tank, you’re DPSing when you keep the party alive as a healer. Just doing it in a very round about way.

There’s nothing wrong with that but it forces people to play in a system that’s been done and overdone.

Do you think GW2’s players want a trinity? Hard, soft, whatever? No.

There’s a minority that keeps spamming it on the forums but the majority plays GW2 for what it is. Players came to this game because it advertised no trinity.
Players who wanted other things have moved on in the near 2 years that the game has been out.

If people want well defined combat roles where everyone has his clear cut job to do there are games that offer that.

Perhaps people should consider that GW2 isn’t the game for them before they start wanting to change it for everybody else.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

Well those terrible players who have no idea how to properly play are doing just fine completing everything very easily and fast.

So which is it?? Is everyone completing everything easily and fast, or are some of them slotting some toughness (and reducing their DPS) to stay alive?

You can’t have it both ways.

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Posted by: Harper.4173

Harper.4173

Well those terrible players who have no idea how to properly play are doing just fine completing everything very easily and fast.

Anyway it’s the current system is obviously not bothering you but I do hope you understand where they are coming from. And not thats not just because they are all just bad players. However, if thats what you like to believe thats of course also fine.

“Very easily and fast”. Right.

They are coming from a game that they’re used to.

They want to make this game into the game they’re used to rather than play it for what it is. Even though there’s more players that would rather play GW2 for what it is than there are players who want to make it WoW 2.0 or whatever else variation on this theme they can come up with.

This happens in every game.

Some Call of Duty fans want to turn Battlefield into Call of Duty. There’s always going to be people that want to take an experience and make it more like what they want disregarding what others want.
It’s happened before and will happen again.

I wish it didn’t, but it does and will again.
Eventually they’ll move on.

If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”

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Posted by: Errant.1942

Errant.1942

Anyway it’s the current system is obviously not bothering you but I do hope you understand where they are coming from. And not thats not just because they are all just bad players. However, if thats what you like to believe thats of course also fine.

Oh, there are mistakes with the system, I will agree to that, but it’s just that people make a problem out of the wrong thing.

Also, the solution this thread proposes is hardly a solution. The problem isn’t lack of roles, or the game being a DPS race, it’s lack of AI

And pigeonholing people into set roles isn’t going to solve anything, it’s only going to make things worse.

As always, clueless people are complaining about the wrong things to Anet.

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Posted by: krooton.8035

krooton.8035

On reflection, I probably could have positioned what I tried to get at in the OP better.

Even just making going “balls deep” in to a trait line worthwhile would be nice.

I main a hammer guardian when doing dungeons/fractals. I tried a more supportive build focusing on Cleric gear and buffing symbols with traits, so increasing size, during, and adding a heal to them.

This meant I kept symbol of protection up pretty much constantly, and gave my party a bit more leeway to move around and still get it’s benefit, but over-all it just wasn’t worth it over the hybrid trait builds that usually used. The trickle-heal, even when geared totally for healing, didn’t really do anything against the heavy hitting mobs. I even tried stacking Sanctuary and Merciful Intervention, with the outcome still being paltry. Even adding a combo-finisher blast heal or something could make things a bit more interesting.

So it ends up feeling like I am still playing solo, just with party members around me. I grant some boons, lay down protection and Aegis, and DPS along. Then there is the uber-situational stuff like Stand Your Ground or Wall of Reflection which almost feel gimmicky due to the situationalness of them.

So my idea was to give each profession some things to excel at, but not be the only option for that thing. Heck, I’m not saying each prof is the only thing that can do xyz, but at least give them all some variation in strengths and weaknesses, and the current ‘communist’ power spread means for some players just feel like they lack purpose.

I do agree that actual changes in content and encounters could help with this.

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Posted by: Traveller.7496

Traveller.7496

Well, for all intents and purposes, instead of a trinity with three options we have one option: zerker.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Except you can use any gear stat you want, not just berserker.

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

Well, for all intents and purposes, instead of a trinity with three options we have one option: zerker.

so wait… the 3 other sets for my necromancer, the 3 other sets for my warrior, 2 extra for thief, the extra sets for my Ele, Ranger, Engie, Gaurd, Mes…..

all were for nothing???

i have been doing it wrong it seems…. pity, i was having fun.

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Posted by: Bezagron.7352

Bezagron.7352

Since joining the discussion I’m starting to believe roles at high end PvE aren’t the problem. These type of non offensive focus roles already exist in game (sPvP & WvW plus open world & mid to low tier PvE). It’s just that high end PvE the events & encounters are not designed or require any of these roles/builds/gear.

Also as others have said, in any encounter that requires you to do damage plus defend. Once the initial encounter is mastered the only wait to continue challenging yourself is to scarifies defence for more offence to see if you can do it fast. This leads to only taking the minimum required support, control & defence that the content requires.

As such roles at high end play come down to what does the content require. If content is design without these roles/builds in mind and that they are not required to complete this content at this level of difficult. Then we/you should not expect them to be there.

On a personal note as I have previously discussed Active defence is King (as should be) but it feels like there is a different in what offensive stats can do for active offence and what defensive stats can do for active defence.

I should also define want active defence is:

“Active defence is taking action to migrate, null in voided and avoid taking any damage or controlling effect”

So a closer look at stats and their effect on active play;

So what I class as offensive stats:

  • Power: Increases raw physical damage of active skills.
  • Precision: Increase critical hit chance. A passive effect (crit chance) but effects all active crit skills & effects.
  • Ferocity: Increase critical damage. Another passive effect (improve crit dmg) but effects all active skills when they crit.
  • Condition damage: Increase condition damage per tick. Again passive effect which plays into that active applications of conditions.

So what can be taken is these stats improve active offence by passively improving these active effects & skills.

And what I class as defensive stats:

  • Vitility: Increase maximum health. (Purely passive)
  • Toughness: Together with the armour value of armour increase maximum armour rating. (Purely passive)
  • Healing Power: Increase healing on all healing effects & skills be they passive or active.

So what can be taken is that vitality & toughness are purely passive stats with no in put into active defence and healing power effects both passive support & defence and after the fact support & defence.

And the odd ones out that falls into both categories

  • Condition duration: Improves up time of conditions.
  • Boon duration: Improves up time of boons.

Condition & boon duration are odd in that they can effect all three type of game play damage, support & control.

As bleed is a damaging conditon, blind can be defensive & supportive by stopping the next attack, chill can be supportive & contolive as it slows down targets skill use and movement. Might improves physical & condition damage, protection is again defensive & supportive in that it reduces incoming physical damage, aegis is supportive & controlive in that it denies the next attack from the attacker and stability is controlive & supportive in that it denies any attackers controlling effects.

Now when looking at active defence they are many abilities/defences that don’t require heavy investment into the defensive/odded stats.

  • Blinds make the attacker miss their next attack. So its all about the timing of blind application. (Independent of stats)
  • Aegis denies the attacker’s next attack that hits. So again it’s all about the timing of application (Independent of stats)
  • Blocks deny any attackers attack that are not unblockable from hitting you. (Independent of stats)
  • Reflects, reflect the attackers projectile back at them. Causing the attacker to be damaged by their own projectile attack. (Independent of stats)
  • Evades causes attackers skills to miss for the evasion time frame. (Independent of stats)
  • Dodges evade. (Refer to evades above)
  • Invulnerable makes you invulnerable to physical damage and the application on controls & conditions. Sadly applied conditions still seem to cause damage even when effected by and invulnerable skill. Don’t think I feel so invulnerable. (Independent of stats)
  • Condition removal, removes conditions before they can take full effect. (Independent of stats)

So what you get is that any defensive stat focused build or gear can in no way improve active defences. So any content that is designed to be able to be completed with only active defences automatically excludes any build or gear that has any defensive &/or odded stats.

For these focused roles/builds/gear to be included at high end play content is required to be designed that excesses a players abilities to complete with only active defences.

Edit: added condition removal to active defence.

(edited by Bezagron.7352)

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Pretty much Bezagron. The possibility to improve diversity in PvE gear already exist. Anet just need to find a balance and implement it. Boon Duraction and Condition Duration would make powerful set, usefull in several occasion and if you add to that the fix to condition duration in group PvE, then now you suddenly have several choice that open up.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Except you are focusing on DPS all the time as (for example) a tank because you’re focusing on maximising your party’s damage output by holding aggro in trinity games and then dropping off as much defensive gear as possible yourself so that you can hold aggro and do a little more damage yourself. The whole focus in games is DPS and maximising it.

A tank is not focusing on DPS, a healer is no focusing on DPS. The DPSers are focusing on DPS. Sure in the end it’s damage (from those DPSers) that kills the boss but when you are tanking you have other things on your mind then DPS. In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

A tank only exists to keep the DPS people alive. They’re what matters the most.

So yes – while tanking your are doing DPS. Indirectly – through the people pushing it out while you hold the boss from killing them.

“They’re what matters the most.” How are they what matter the most if they die without a tank and healer? I really see a big difference between everything is based on DPS and having a team with different roles but the boss eventually dies from damage.

Not that I would also mind different mechanics where you do not need to kill a boss but transport somebody or something from one place to another. You can even implement PvP (capture the flag) element into a dungeon. But that might go out of the scope of this thread.

And it’s the same difference the people who make these complains talk about if they say the DPS focus is making combat dull.

So it does not even matter if I consider it not a DPS focus and you do. What matters is that the way it now works in GW2 is what many people consider dull and the way with more roles (what you also consider a focus on DPS) is what they see as less dull.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

Not that I would also mind different mechanics where you do not need to kill a boss but transport somebody or something from one place to another.

for the record, the NPCs you have to drag around in GW2 (agent spire, hodgins, detha, varra) are like, universally despised. you’re on your own on wanting this buddy.

What matters is that the way it now works in GW2 is what many people consider dull and the way with more roles (what you also consider a focus on DPS) is what they see as less dull.

actually it’s just a vocal minority who just want to endlessly complain, and then if a “problem” is “fixed” they’ll just move on to complaining about the next “problem”.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

It’s not imposing restrictions, it’s giving additional abilities to excel in.

Also I did not see anybody here ask for the holy trinity.

Of course it’s imposing restrictions. “guardians can tank but warriors suck at conditions” is restrictions. We don’t need that.

Well if that is a restriction then you should give every class exactly the same or really you would not have different classes any-more only different races.. of course without skills based on the race. That might be what you like but most people like some more tactics and teamwork to be involved.

yes, if an encounter will require players fulfilling important specific roles, then every class need to be able to do so. Their approach to the problem might be different, but in the end no class should ever be excluded.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

~

“And by everybody complaining you mean the half a dozen people who keep making these threads while the majority of the player base is actually playing the game and not even bothering with the forums.”

Oow this excuse again. How many times I did not see that one coming in the discussion about temporary content. Looks like even Anet eventually had to conclude that it was not just a few people on the forums but in fact many people disliking that.

In addition this one is even more tricky because there might also be people who simply consider combat dull but don’t relate it back to the lack of roles while in fact that might be the difference they need to not have it being dull for them.

Lastly I also know multiple people who already left the game because of this problem (no roles, dull combat, all DPS), not all complaining on the forum. GW2 might be able to get some of them back. Not all however, for that it’s to late. You should be happy with the people that put up that information on the forum.

“The “dull team play” you mention is only dull for people who like to be chained to other people.” Being chained is not the correct way of saying it. But yes it are people who consider teamwork, working to getter to complete the task where everybody uses his own (and required) abilities. So in that way they are depended on each other and other people are depended on them.

“I like GW2 because it allows me to be independent – my party can suck but if I’m good I can carry the fight and not have to rely on bad players.” I love to be independent. But when I want to do some teamwork content (like a dungeon) then I indeed like to do some teamwork. Not being pretty much solo while there are also some other people running around. It’s nice that you like that but that’s what some other people don’t like in teamwork content.

“The game has teamplay and you’ll do much better with an organized team of good players playing together but it doesn’t have the kind of teamplay where you’ll fail of others fail.”
Even in a holy trinity a single fail does not mean a total fail. If a tank go’s down a strong DPSer can tank for a short while while the healer gets the tank back up. But indeed a bad player can be a problem. If bad players don’t effect the game a lot then apparently content is sort of easy and nobody is really important in a fight, it’s not strange people consider it dull.

“You’re not chained together with other people through artificial constructs like tank and healer and that is a GOOD THING.”
I do like it how you choose your words. First with the “GW2’s way is more independent, then the team does not fail because one players fails and now picking a word as chained together through artificial constructions”
It all sounds so beautiful as if the one is a good thing and the other is a bad thing.

Anyway, It would not even have to be artificial you know. There is a reason why in a real army uses many different roles all with it’s own specialities. Same for about everything in life. Not everybody is sort of oke in everything. The reason it would be artificial in GW2 is because it’s a game. Not being ’ chained together’ is just as artificial.

“In GW1 and other “forced role” games what happens is that if the person on role x is bad the whole party will suffer.” Same for the other roles. What makes teamwork more important and gives more value to each player.

“Do you think GW2’s players want a trinity? Hard, soft, whatever? No.” I came up with many many examples. You go in on the trinity example and then you ask if I think if GW2 players want a trinity. No I don’t. I think many players want more specific roles. That’s not the same as a trinity. A trinity is only one way of implementing that.

You see GW2 was promoted as having no trinity, not as having no roles.

“If people want well defined combat roles where everyone has his clear cut job to do there are games that offer that. ”Indeed and if many people leave to those games that’s bad for GW2. So this is even more of a reason to take those complains serious.

“Perhaps people should consider that GW2 isn’t the game for them before they start wanting to change it for everybody else.” Just as the “it’s only a minority” this one is also a much used argument in the forums. But it does not add anything to the discussion. Again the game was not promoted as having no roles (in fact it was promoted as having roles, just not the trinity ones). So it might very well be the game for them if GW2 is the game it should have been.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Lastly I also know multiple people who already left the game because of this problem (no roles, dull combat, all DPS), not all complaining on the forum. GW2 might be able to get some of them back. Not all however, for that it’s to late. You should be happy with the people that put up that information on the forum.

THIS PROBLEM DON’T EXIST DUDE. Stop already. Its a different gameplay, if it don’t fit your need, find another game and leave GW2 alone. For good sake. If i don’t like the core gameplay of a game I don’t whine on forum how if we change everything in the game then it would be such an awesome game. NO i just find another game and move on with my live. I’ll complain and try to find solution to some specific change : Oh they should fix the issue of condition dmg in PvE Settings group, or oh i would like that they give more active support gear option like condition duration or boons duration, or Oh i would like they make AI more active for better fight, etc.

Constructive criticize to improve a game that you like VS whining about a game that you don’t like.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Dalanor.5387

Dalanor.5387

Don’t feed the ignorant troll.

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Or how about we don’t go trinity-lite and let people play exactly how they want? Why are people so insistent on imposing restrictions on classes? Do you not enjoy freedom? Do you not enjoy the fact that you can go balls deep min-max or play a completely atrocious, random build and yet still clear content?

It’s not imposing restrictions, it’s giving additional abilities to excel in.

Also I did not see anybody here ask for the holy trinity.

Of course it’s imposing restrictions. “guardians can tank but warriors suck at conditions” is restrictions. We don’t need that.

Well if that is a restriction then you should give every class exactly the same or really you would not have different classes any-more only different races.. of course without skills based on the race. That might be what you like but most people like some more tactics and teamwork to be involved.

yes, if an encounter will require players fulfilling important specific roles, then every class need to be able to do so. Their approach to the problem might be different, but in the end no class should ever be excluded.

Unfortunately they have already started excluding the necro by making some attacks undodgeable.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

In GW2 is really trying to maximize your DPS output while also staying alive. (thats why toughness is this nice extra people appreciate).

Well those terrible players who have no idea how to properly play are doing just fine completing everything very easily and fast.

So which is it?? Is everyone completing everything easily and fast, or are some of them slotting some toughness (and reducing their DPS) to stay alive?

You can’t have it both ways.

Heavy armor.

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Posted by: maha.7902

maha.7902

this guy actually thinks heavy armour makes a difference of any relevance

Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Well those terrible players who have no idea how to properly play are doing just fine completing everything very easily and fast.

Anyway it’s the current system is obviously not bothering you but I do hope you understand where they are coming from. And not thats not just because they are all just bad players. However, if thats what you like to believe thats of course also fine.

“Very easily and fast”. Right.

They are coming from a game that they’re used to.

They want to make this game into the game they’re used to rather than play it for what it is. Even though there’s more players that would rather play GW2 for what it is than there are players who want to make it WoW 2.0 or whatever else variation on this theme they can come up with.

This happens in every game.

Some Call of Duty fans want to turn Battlefield into Call of Duty. There’s always going to be people that want to take an experience and make it more like what they want disregarding what others want.
It’s happened before and will happen again.

I wish it didn’t, but it does and will again.
Eventually they’ll move on.

Complaining about a lack of roles is not the same as saying it has to be the same as another game. GW2 did try a lot of new things. Some things worked out some not so well. I don’t think them dropping the Holy Trinity was bad. However I do think them not really replacing it with something else (they did try that but it didn’t really worked out that way) is bad. Some people might be asking for the HT because that’s what they know but when talking about a lack of roles this argument is not really valid.