Guild Wars 2

I just find it funny that all the people that want dueling say that anyone against dueling “is this or that” but completely fail to realize THIS GAME IS NOT MADE FOR 1v1 PVP. Not at all. It is a team game first and foremost. Hell, just look at the professions and the balance. It is a joke. All you would ever see are 12 year olds on Thieves and Mesmers spamming requests thinking “their skill” is what is actually winning the fights and not the massive oversight of stealth.

Not to mention the horrible whining of “well they are just to lazy to decline!!”. You already have the capability to duel in Spvp with the custom areas. Yes, they do work, and yes you can use them in that fashion. You are just to lazy to use the functions given to you. “But I can’t have my massive stat boost over the other person, how can I possible play?” Try skill perhaps instead of relying on massive stat boosts from food/gear.

This game isn’t about fun though. Just look at how these people fight against fun features just because they are in another game they hate or because they might be momentarily inconvienced by a duel request or by having to tick a decline box.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though. Just look at how these people fight against fun features just because they are in another game they hate or because they might be momentarily inconvienced by a duel request or by having to tick a decline box.

hahaha. Yeah, how much gold/hr do you get from dueling? eh? filthy casual!

Scrambles.2604:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though. Just look at how these people fight against fun features just because they are in another game they hate or because they might be momentarily inconvienced by a duel request or by having to tick a decline box.

hahaha. Yeah, how much gold/hr do you get from dueling? eh? filthy casual!

Oh well. Due to the in game fun police, I just work my job a little longer and buy all the gold I need. Those other games have things like cool loot, rewarding content, and friendly pvp dueling and we all know that GW2 is not like all those other MMOs. They do things differently!

The only way I see open world dualing, or open world PvP working is on a whole seperate server. Much like what other MMOs have. (As that been quoted often enough as a reason it could work.) If you want to play that style, where you are in the open world, and can get ganked at any time by anybody, then you would have the option to do that. Otherwise you can keep the PvE as it stands. It wouldn’t be TOO difficult to implement, and lets those who want dualing/pvp in open world to have it, and the rest can continue on as is.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though.

But it is, that’s why there’s no dueling.

Scrambles.2604:

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

Still, you missed my point. The dismissive stance is going to generate resistance, whereas an inclusive stance might not. That’s the human nature I was referring to.

Atlas.9704:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though.

But it is, that’s why there’s no dueling.

Best answer this week!

Atlas.9704:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though.

But it is, that’s why there’s no dueling.

Don’t like it? Then set your options and don’t duel.

Pretty basic stuff here.

Vanthian.9267:

1. THIS GAME IS NOT MADE FOR 1v1 PVP.

2. You already have the capability to duel in Spvp with the custom areas. Yes, they do work, and yes you can use them in that fashion. You are just to lazy to use the functions given to you.

1. So what?

2. Those custom arenas exist for me to grief in. I love trolling the duelists trying to get a fair duel in there. I love jumping in and quickly kill one of them and see them qq. After they quiet down and go back to dueling, I will interrupt their duel again. If they try to switch to another room; no problem, I just need to find rooms that are 2 filled out of 20 slots. Usually those have duelists in them for me to grief.

Same old boring duel thread with the same people saying the same things they have said in the countless other threads on the topic. I don’t think this thread is going to be the one, unlike the many others, that makes a difference.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Same old boring duel thread with the same people saying the same things they have said in the countless other threads on the topic. I don’t think this thread is going to be the one, unlike the many others, that makes a difference.

Would love to see an argument other than: “it might hurt my feelings so therefore you can’t have it.”

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Atlas.9704:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though.

But it is, that’s why there’s no dueling.

Don’t like it? Then set your options and don’t duel.

Pretty basic stuff here.

No need to set options since we don’t have duelling.
Please set instead your options and join WvW or sPvP. Pretty basic stuff.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Atlas.9704:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

This game isn’t about fun though.

But it is, that’s why there’s no dueling.

Don’t like it? Then set your options and don’t duel.

Pretty basic stuff here.

I’ll point you back to my initial post about the subject in this thread.
That “pretty basic stuff” is going on the faith that ANet would have such an option on day 1 of duel release.

I don’t have such faith, though as stated before I’d love to be proven wrong should the situation actually happen.

I’m generally not in favor of PvE dueling since it usually leads to verbal harassment or “trash talk” spam using zone wide chat channels that no one other than the duel participants wants to see.

I would be all for it if the following were in place before it was enabled:

(1) Auto decline in place and on by default. If you want to duel you should have to turn it on.

(2) Anyone who requests a duel with a player who has auto decline on will be unable to personal chat with that player for a 60 minute cool down – makes personal channel harassment hard to accomplish. Nearby shout and zone shout harassment would be handled as usual with the reporting mechanism. Same for “friends” of the duelers sending followup harassing personal chats.

(3) While a duel is active, participants would not be able to use the nearby shout and zone shout channels. A special duel chat channel or the usual personal chat channel would suffice and no one else would be showered with annoying duel chat.

(4) While a duel is active, player models of the participants would not be viewable/targetable by non participants. Likewise, all non participant player models would not be viewable/targetable by the duel participants.

(5) The duel participants would not count towards event scaling or be able to affect open world mobs and events in any way while the duel is in progress. This would help eliminate the ability of the duelers to grief open world events.

(6) The duel participants would be returned to the exact position they started the duel when it is complete. This would eliminate using the duel mode to gain a positional advantage in a jumping puzzle or other event that uses mobs as part of the challenge.

If ArenaNet is willing to code the above rules to create a “duel mode” in PvE modes, I’d say go for it since the net effect on me is that I would not see it or even know it is in progress. Now if it is worth their while since PvP zones already exist is another matter.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

Still, you missed my point. The dismissive stance is going to generate resistance, whereas an inclusive stance might not. That’s the human nature I was referring to.

i reread your initial post and i get what you are saying. I just can’t tolerate the arguments grounded in hyperbole. If their argument already resorts to fearmongering i will not expect to win them over with words and reason because they operate with emotions.

You think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because two additional people might effect event scaling? Not that big an issue, but that is a real issue, i will give the argument some merit.

But you think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because of this hypothetical troll that may follow you around and berate you until you log off for not dueling? No, that is not a real argument. It is an unfounded fantasy situation that doesn’t happen in the real world (of GW2) with enough frequency for it to be a significant concern.

Even more so, this hypothetical falls under the purvue of “harrassment,” not duels. If the duel troll tirelessly tries to prove his merit to you, he is harassing you, not dueling you.

I will consider a concern that has to do with dueling but when it falls into harassment that is a whole different issue.

Ok .. i have a good idea. What if we get duels, but everytime a duel request is declined / autodeclined the requester has to pay 1 Gold to the person that declined the request ?

That would maybe turn the annoyance for the people who dislike duels into something positive, and on the other hand, the people that say we don’t spam people just to annoy them must have no problem with that .. since they never have to pay. Right ? Right ??

Audrey.7246:

If ArenaNet is willing to code the above rules to create a “duel mode” in PvE modes, I’d say go for it since the net effect on me is that I would not see it or even know it is in progress. Now if it is worth their while since PvP zones already exist is another matter.

So all those steps lead to what essentially is: “Allow duel, remove them from PvE, put them back afterwards, environment doesn’t affect them nor they it.”

All the more reason to stick duels back in the Mist.

Atlas.9704:

Audrey.7246:

If ArenaNet is willing to code the above rules to create a “duel mode” in PvE modes, I’d say go for it since the net effect on me is that I would not see it or even know it is in progress. Now if it is worth their while since PvP zones already exist is another matter.

So all those steps lead to what essentially is: “Allow duel, remove them from PvE, put them back afterwards, environment doesn’t affect them nor they it.”

All the more reason to stick duels back in the Mist.

It could be coded to use the existing MegaServer zones – making objects viewable or targetable does not require a separate instance and neither does eliminating them from scaling calculations. The advantage is that the duelers could use any PvE zone without affecting anyone else and they could use their PvE gear while doing so.

With my experience, I’d rather not have duels be isolated from the rest of the game. Trash talking and abuse are trash talking and abuse. Ignore works, as does reporting troublesome players (If that’s an option). People taking duels seriously is also a problem, but it’s hard to properly implement a more open approach to intercharacter aggression that doesn’t allow griefing.

One can grief and troll the queensdale champ train to high heaven. Should we remove it because of a tiny jerk minority?

Audrey.7246:

Audrey.7246:

If ArenaNet is willing to code the above rules to create a “duel mode” in PvE modes, I’d say go for it since the net effect on me is that I would not see it or even know it is in progress. Now if it is worth their while since PvP zones already exist is another matter.

Atlas.9704:

So all those steps lead to what essentially is: “Allow duel, remove them from PvE, put them back afterwards, environment doesn’t affect them nor they it.”

All the more reason to stick duels back in the Mist.

It could be coded to use the existing MegaServer zones – making objects viewable or targetable does not require a separate instance and neither does eliminating them from scaling calculations. The advantage is that the duelers could use any PvE zone without affecting anyone else and they could use their PvE gear while doing so.

The only reason to use their pve gear (so pve stats over pvp stats, since now visuals are the same) would be for one player to have an advantage over another due to better eq. If you want duels to be fair, and be about skill, you would not want that.

(i am now ignoring the fact that classes were never really balanced for 1v1 duels, so only same class pairings could be considered fair)

So, basically, what is really needed is a better way to enter mists and go 1v1, not implementing completely new subsystem into PvE.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

One can grief and troll the queensdale champ train to high heaven. Should we remove it because of a tiny jerk minority?

there are people advertising exactly that. In fact, they did manage to get Anet to nerf QD train in the last patch.

I think PvE dueling is significantly harder technically. Approach the problem from the point “If I were trying to abuse a PvE dueling system, how would I do it?” (Absent creating a new micro-instance for the duel, which raises its own separate set of issues.)

You have to create a new system for addressing each of the following: other players and their status effects, environmental weapons and status effects, the effects of all the bundles the players may be carrying which cannot be currently used in WvW, the monsters and their status effects, zone level scaling, and the event and event scaling.

What happens when two players start dueling during Tequatl? What would happen if most or all the players paired off and dueled during an event? If your duel ignores monsters and their effects, could you stage a running duel between two characters with low damage and get to a hard-to-acquire WP, POI, Puzzle or Mini-dungeon risk-free? What happens when the fight crosses a scaling boundry? These questions took me a few minutes to come up with; everyone that wants to grief duels would be coming up with better ones as quickly as they can.

WvW PvP works because everyone is scaled to Lv 80 constantly and consistently and nobody (Player or NPC) is friendly to both sides in the fight.

(Ironically, I read Audrey’s post above while finalizing my own; she’s been thinking along similar lines; the question her idea raises is: how does the scaling change when a duel or duels begin? You have a massively scaled event and suddenly everyone phases out of the fight; or, you’re about to lose to a boss that has an on-failure attack, like Tequatl or Megadestroyer (or, better yet, the Marionette), can you cheat death? The Marionette fight mechanics + duels causes all kinds of wonky issues.).

Sartharina.3542:

With my experience, I’d rather not have duels be isolated from the rest of the game. Trash talking and abuse are trash talking and abuse. Ignore works, as does reporting troublesome players (If that’s an option). People taking duels seriously is also a problem, but it’s hard to properly implement a more open approach to intercharacter aggression that doesn’t allow griefing.

In my experience while playing other games, ignore only helps with player to player verbal abuse and it does not prevent the initial unwanted communication. It also does nothing to eliminate the constant barrage of zone wide trash talk in populated zones such as cities (Aion is notorious for this).

Players dueling around crafting stations, NPCs, events, etc. are annoying and unwelcome. Again, if a way can be found to permit consenting dueling using PvE zones without affecting players there for other activities, I have no objections.

Civilis.2547:

I think PvE dueling is significantly harder technically. Approach the problem from the point “If I were trying to abuse a PvE dueling system, how would I do it?” (Absent creating a new micro-instance for the duel, which raises its own separate set of issues.)

You have to create a new system for addressing each of the following: other players and their status effects, environmental weapons and status effects, the effects of all the bundles the players may be carrying which cannot be currently used in WvW, the monsters and their status effects, zone level scaling, and the event and event scaling.

What happens when two players start dueling during Tequatl? What would happen if most or all the players paired off and dueled during an event? If your duel ignores monsters and their effects, could you stage a running duel between two characters with low damage and get to a hard-to-acquire WP, POI, Puzzle or Mini-dungeon risk-free? What happens when the fight crosses a scaling boundry? These questions took me a few minutes to come up with; everyone that wants to grief duels would be coming up with better ones as quickly as they can.

WvW PvP works because everyone is scaled to Lv 80 constantly and consistently and nobody (Player or NPC) is friendly to both sides in the fight.

(Ironically, I read Audrey’s post above while finalizing my own; she’s been thinking along similar lines; the question her idea raises is: how does the scaling change when a duel or duels begin? You have a massively scaled event and suddenly everyone phases out of the fight; or, you’re about to lose to a boss that has an on-failure attack, like Tequatl or Megadestroyer (or, better yet, the Marionette), can you cheat death? The Marionette fight mechanics + duels causes all kinds of wonky issues.).

i know nothing about the technical aspect, but every MMO on the market has managed to achieve this so i don’t think it’s too far fetched. Anet has never really been shy about admitting technical limitations (bleed caps/AoE caps), so if that was the main reason i think we would’ve heard it by now.

That said, in every other game with duels, you fight to 1 health and the whole time you can be hit by mobs. This creates incentive to fight away from mobs, because you are vulnerable to just about anything at 1 hp.

Otherwise, i mentioned event scaling earlier and so did you so i will address that as well. If two additional people scale and event and the event is failed, it was probably failed from the get go. If this is a big issue then i would imagine there would be more effort to removing AFKs from events, who also effects event scaling.

Also, costume brawls function similar to what you would expect from duels and those are fine. After reading all the posts about harassment, i’m still waiting to get bullied into a costume brawl…haha oh wait that doesn’t happen :P

Audrey.7246:

Sartharina.3542:

With my experience, I’d rather not have duels be isolated from the rest of the game. Trash talking and abuse are trash talking and abuse. Ignore works, as does reporting troublesome players (If that’s an option). People taking duels seriously is also a problem, but it’s hard to properly implement a more open approach to intercharacter aggression that doesn’t allow griefing.

In my experience while playing other games, ignore only helps with player to player verbal abuse and it does not prevent the initial unwanted communication. It also does nothing to eliminate the constant barrage of zone wide trash talk in populated zones such as cities (Aion is notorious for this).

Players dueling around crafting stations, NPCs, events, etc. are annoying and unwelcome. Again, if a way can be found to permit consenting dueling using PvE zones without affecting players there for other activities, I have no objections.

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

What will probably happen is that duelers will congregate in an area or two outside of major cities and 95% of dueling will occur there with the rest in random areas. During my time with WoW I have NEVER been challenged in some random zone. Always right outside the major cities.

Scrambles.2604:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

Still, you missed my point. The dismissive stance is going to generate resistance, whereas an inclusive stance might not. That’s the human nature I was referring to.

i reread your initial post and i get what you are saying. I just can’t tolerate the arguments grounded in hyperbole. If their argument already resorts to fearmongering i will not expect to win them over with words and reason because they operate with emotions.

You think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because two additional people might effect event scaling? Not that big an issue, but that is a real issue, i will give the argument some merit.

But you think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because of this hypothetical troll that may follow you around and berate you until you log off for not dueling? No, that is not a real argument. It is an unfounded fantasy situation that doesn’t happen in the real world (of GW2) with enough frequency for it to be a significant concern.

Even more so, this hypothetical falls under the purvue of “harrassment,” not duels. If the duel troll tirelessly tries to prove his merit to you, he is harassing you, not dueling you.

I will consider a concern that has to do with dueling but when it falls into harassment that is a whole different issue.

While refraining from dismissive argument will not sway those with extreme positions, using such arguments will not sway them, either. At this juncture, I doubt that there are any real neutral positions left that argument might sway. However, if you resort to a dismissive argument, you risk alienating players with moderate positions.

I see no value to dismissing concerns about harassment. If there are really so few instances of duel-related harassment in other games, the developers will know this or can find this out. If they don’t know, and aren’t willing to research, then your argument is unlikely to convince them.

While I have seen much less harassment of any kind in GW2 than in some other games, I have seen claims of it on the forums, most notably event farm trollers;
CTrain trollers; farmers and CTrainers; and dueling arena trollers. Thus, we know there are people who will harass. Will they use dueling to do so? Perhaps, to the extent the mechanics allow.

All it takes is two experiences with dueling-related harassment for someone to invalidate for themselves your argument that the concern is hypothetical. My own experiences have been sporadic, but there have been considerably more than two. Despite that, I’m not against dueling with appropriate controls to make griefing via dueling harder.

I do, however, think you will be a more persuasive spokesperson for your position if you refrain from the dismissive argument and focus more on the inclusive one. Regardless, carry on and good luck.

Scrambles.2604:

i know nothing about the technical aspect, but every MMO on the market has managed to achieve this so i don’t think it’s too far fetched. Anet has never really been shy about admitting technical limitations (bleed caps/AoE caps), so if that was the main reason i think we would’ve heard it by now.

I know one MMO that doesn’t do dueling, and I bet you do too…

It’s not that it’s technologically impossible, it’s just that it requires completely analyzing all of PvE and how it will be affected by people starting a duel, especially people that are trying to find ways to break the system, and changing a lot of things, so it’s not a quick or easy addition.

Creating a separate mini-instance that uses the current WvW ruleset would work, but that’s not what people are asking for.

Scrambles.2604:

Otherwise, i mentioned event scaling earlier and so did you so i will address that as well. If two additional people scale and event and the event is failed, it was probably failed from the get go. If this is a big issue then i would imagine there would be more effort to removing AFKs from events, who also effects event scaling.

OK, but imagine this using your duel rules above: we’re fighting the marionette, and we’ve just severed a chain. A pair of skilled warriors at each section start a quick duel before they could be teleported out, only to quit immediately after the next set of bosses load. One quick heal later…

Scrambles.2604:

Also, costume brawls function similar to what you would expect from duels and those are fine. After reading all the posts about harassment, i’m still waiting to get bullied into a costume brawl…haha oh wait that doesn’t happen :P

That’s a good thought, but costume brawl statuses and health don’t change the behavior of enemies, and costume weapons are automatically lost when combat is started. Costume brawl skills are also limited and completely separate from player stats or level, and are not affected by traits, and don’t allow use of skills other than those of the costume. And because all costume brawl ‘damage’ is in the form of special statuses, outside effects can’t heal, buff or debuff costume brawlers.

Though now that you mention it, I would love to see a set of prop weapons for costume brawling: a prop sword with a few costume-brawl warrior skills, a prop bow with some costume-brawl ranger skills, a prop staff with some costume-brawl elementalist skills, etc.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

One can grief and troll the queensdale champ train to high heaven. Should we remove it because of a tiny jerk minority?

Why do you always come with the argument to remove existing stuff ? Removing stuff that people get used to is a totally different thing than never having implementet something where you know it will bring massive problems.

Hey .. another great idea .. let duels lead to perma death .. that also delete all the stuff in your bank and your wardrobe. I think that is a great thing that will bring masses of players back because they really love that kind of challenge.

Scrambles.2604:

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

I’ve read the majority of your posts in this thread and I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish. You seem to object to any implementation that would place restrictions on the players executing the duels.

Would you use the ability to duel as some sort of public challenge event in or near a populated area such as a popular city such as one-on-one challenge fights for gold, etc.?

Your earlier posts seem to indicate that you wanted PvE dueling so that you could easily use any PvE zone to check out PvE gear and builds with friends. Why would you care if others not involved would be able to view your duel or observe your chat?

I tried to present a solution for what you seemed to want, but from your recent responses there is something else in play that you are not disclosing.

BTW, I have been playing GW2 since launch and I have yet to see a costume brawl. Players do not frequently spam skills around crafting stations or frequently used NPCs either – it has never been an issue. Players do spam skills, shoot fireworks, tell jokes, do emotes, etc. while waiting for world boss events, but all others in the area are there for the same reason and no one is harassed or annoyed.

The biggest issue with dueling is the resultant zone wide (or nearby) channel chat that it inevitably causes. It is as welcome as the Queensdale champion train trash talk when someone decides to try a champion outside the train.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

Don’t take my dismissal of the hypothetical “12 year old persistent troll” as a lack of understanding of human nature, it’s an acknowledgment of how overblown the frequency of those situations occurring have been stated on the forums. Just because there is potential for abuse doesn’t make it common place. Just because it happened once doesn’t mean it will happen all the time. We have all met that person but not with such a recurring frequency that it drives us away from the game.

Still, you missed my point. The dismissive stance is going to generate resistance, whereas an inclusive stance might not. That’s the human nature I was referring to.

i reread your initial post and i get what you are saying. I just can’t tolerate the arguments grounded in hyperbole. If their argument already resorts to fearmongering i will not expect to win them over with words and reason because they operate with emotions.

You think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because two additional people might effect event scaling? Not that big an issue, but that is a real issue, i will give the argument some merit.

But you think duels shouldn’t be in the open world because of this hypothetical troll that may follow you around and berate you until you log off for not dueling? No, that is not a real argument. It is an unfounded fantasy situation that doesn’t happen in the real world (of GW2) with enough frequency for it to be a significant concern.

Even more so, this hypothetical falls under the purvue of “harrassment,” not duels. If the duel troll tirelessly tries to prove his merit to you, he is harassing you, not dueling you.

I will consider a concern that has to do with dueling but when it falls into harassment that is a whole different issue.

While refraining from dismissive argument will not sway those with extreme positions, using such arguments will not sway them, either. At this juncture, I doubt that there are any real neutral positions left that argument might sway. However, if you resort to a dismissive argument, you risk alienating players with moderate positions.

I see no value to dismissing concerns about harassment. If there are really so few instances of duel-related harassment in other games, the developers will know this or can find this out. If they don’t know, and aren’t willing to research, then your argument is unlikely to convince them.

While I have seen much less harassment of any kind in GW2 than in some other games, I have seen claims of it on the forums, most notably event farm trollers;
CTrain trollers; farmers and CTrainers; and dueling arena trollers. Thus, we know there are people who will harass. Will they use dueling to do so? Perhaps, to the extent the mechanics allow.

All it takes is two experiences with dueling-related harassment for someone to invalidate for themselves your argument that the concern is hypothetical. My own experiences have been sporadic, but there have been considerably more than two. Despite that, I’m not against dueling with appropriate controls to make griefing via dueling harder.

I do, however, think you will be a more persuasive spokesperson for your position if you refrain from the dismissive argument and focus more on the inclusive one. Regardless, carry on and good luck.

i’m not trying to persuade the person i’m talking to. I’m trying to persuade the reader. There are 10x more views than comments on this thread.

I feel like an outsider would see the same level of absurdity i’m trying to argue against. I tell my MMO vet friends about the anti-duelers in GW2 and they don’t believe me. “why would anyone be against dueling?”

Even in this thread, there is disbelief that resistance against consensual, open world dueling is even a thing.

im for dueling 100%

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

I’ve read the majority of your posts in this thread and I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish. You seem to object to any implementation that would place restrictions on the players executing the duels.

Would you use the ability to duel as some sort of public challenge event in or near a populated area such as a popular city such as one-on-one challenge fights for gold, etc.?

Your earlier posts seem to indicate that you wanted PvE dueling so that you could easily use any PvE zone to check out PvE gear and builds with friends. Why would you care if others not involved would be able to view your duel or observe your chat?

I tried to present a solution for what you seemed to want, but from your recent responses there is something else in play that you are not disclosing.

BTW, I have been playing GW2 since launch and I have yet to see a costume brawl. Players do not frequently spam skills around crafting stations or frequently used NPCs either – it has never been an issue. Players do spam skills, shoot fireworks, tell jokes, do emotes, etc. while waiting for world boss events, but all others in the area are there for the same reason and no one is harassed or annoyed.

The biggest issue with dueling is the resultant zone wide (or nearby) channel chat that it inevitably causes. It is as welcome as the Queensdale champion train trash talk when someone decides to try a champion outside the train.

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

You want dueling? Pick a martial art of your choice. Join a dojo. Go on sparring nights. Desire fulfilled.

I rarely post but this topic is something I feel VERY strongly about.

NO to open world dueling in the PvE areas ever.

pvp areas already exist

The only ways this might be implemented to allow the use of PvE gear/skills that are acceptable:
1. Special areas that allow the use of PvE gear ie: The Bane
2. A special map for PvP only that DOES NOT require map completion for 100% and has no PvE content whatsoever.

ANET PLEASE leave the regular PvE areas that currently exist AS THEY ARE.
STOP trying to drag those of us that dont want to have anything to do with PvP into PvP. It WILL NOT work and I will quit the game before I do any PvP.

I will not debate the reasons I feel this way and I wont debate the pros/cons so dont bother trying to convince me. I will never be convinced that PvP in open world is a good thing.

I DO NOT want to see dueling in PvE ever under any circumstances.

I vote no dueling in open world

Scrambles.2604:

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

I’ve read the majority of your posts in this thread and I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish. You seem to object to any implementation that would place restrictions on the players executing the duels.

Would you use the ability to duel as some sort of public challenge event in or near a populated area such as a popular city such as one-on-one challenge fights for gold, etc.?

Your earlier posts seem to indicate that you wanted PvE dueling so that you could easily use any PvE zone to check out PvE gear and builds with friends. Why would you care if others not involved would be able to view your duel or observe your chat?

I tried to present a solution for what you seemed to want, but from your recent responses there is something else in play that you are not disclosing.

BTW, I have been playing GW2 since launch and I have yet to see a costume brawl. Players do not frequently spam skills around crafting stations or frequently used NPCs either – it has never been an issue. Players do spam skills, shoot fireworks, tell jokes, do emotes, etc. while waiting for world boss events, but all others in the area are there for the same reason and no one is harassed or annoyed.

The biggest issue with dueling is the resultant zone wide (or nearby) channel chat that it inevitably causes. It is as welcome as the Queensdale champion train trash talk when someone decides to try a champion outside the train.

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

It really is not about whether “everyone” harasses or not. It only takes a minority of adolescent jerks to adversely affect the gameplay experience. I don’t mean to seem confrontational but, truly, this is not hypothetical and I am not just making it up. I do not like dueling and have had to tolerate a lot of crap over the years from what is an admittedly minority of the dueling population. That it is a minority doesn’t make the experience any less crappy.

And…just to answer a previous denigrating post…I am not afraid of “having my feelings hurt.” It is just an annoyance that I can do without. Is it a “deal breaker” for me? No, of course not. I am not going to rage quit if they introduce dueling. I generally am not in favor of it since my past experiences have not been that pleasant. I see it as something I will have to “tolerate” that brings absolutely nothing to the game for me. In other words, in terms of the quality of my experience, it is a net loss. Does that make me selfish? Sure it does…just like those who want dueling are being selfish as well. We all want what we want and those who disagree with us are being selfish.

Sadly…and I am sincere in that…this is not likely to be an issue where we will all come to some grand consensus. I suspect it will be one of those issues that…one side will be happy and the other side will be unhappy…as happens with a fair number of issues in any game.

Scrambles.2604:

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

People are up in arms for good reasons with certain tools and features by way of experience with them in other games.

DPS and gear checks split the FFXI community into a small segment of elite players that absolutely would not play with anyone else and a large group of disdained casuals. Due to this (and the uniformly hated iLevel gear progression system), new FFXI players are almost extinct and the game has to resort to login campaigns and introduce many, many solo activities to keep the existing player base.

I’ll bring up Aion again as an example of dueling harassment – it happens in all popular cities in that game and causes all sorts of chat based arguements.

The primary reason for DPS meters and gear checks is to permit segregation of the player base by the players. Dueling can also be misused as a “recruitment” tool for membership application to guilds or dungeon parties – i.e. we will only accept the winner of a duel between two applicants.

Again, what harm is it if methods of implementing dueling can be done in a way where it is transparent to other players? Sure, harassment can be accomplished in many ways for many activities, but why not try to make it more difficult when possible?

Elothar.4382:

Scrambles.2604:

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

Without duels, players spam their abilities all the time, everywhere. The bank, crafting, TP….without duels. I really doubt this is a serious issue. In fact, this is about the only place you see costume brawls occur…yet i have seen no complaints about that.

If you can’t be bothered to see other peoples spell effects, even in non-combat areas, you are definitely in the wrong game. No mana cost and no target needed for spell casts encourages useless spell spam more so than any other MMO out there, yet it’s only an issue when duels are mentioned >_>

I’ve read the majority of your posts in this thread and I guess I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish. You seem to object to any implementation that would place restrictions on the players executing the duels.

Would you use the ability to duel as some sort of public challenge event in or near a populated area such as a popular city such as one-on-one challenge fights for gold, etc.?

Your earlier posts seem to indicate that you wanted PvE dueling so that you could easily use any PvE zone to check out PvE gear and builds with friends. Why would you care if others not involved would be able to view your duel or observe your chat?

I tried to present a solution for what you seemed to want, but from your recent responses there is something else in play that you are not disclosing.

BTW, I have been playing GW2 since launch and I have yet to see a costume brawl. Players do not frequently spam skills around crafting stations or frequently used NPCs either – it has never been an issue. Players do spam skills, shoot fireworks, tell jokes, do emotes, etc. while waiting for world boss events, but all others in the area are there for the same reason and no one is harassed or annoyed.

The biggest issue with dueling is the resultant zone wide (or nearby) channel chat that it inevitably causes. It is as welcome as the Queensdale champion train trash talk when someone decides to try a champion outside the train.

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

It really is not about whether “everyone” harasses or not. It only takes a minority of adolescent jerks to adversely affect the gameplay experience. I don’t mean to seem confrontational but, truly, this is not hypothetical and I am not just making it up. I do not like dueling and have had to tolerate a lot of crap over the years from what is an admittedly minority of the dueling population. That it is a minority doesn’t make the experience any less crappy.

And…just to answer a previous denigrating post…I am not afraid of “having my feelings hurt.” It is just an annoyance that I can do without. Is it a “deal breaker” for me? No, of course not. I am not going to rage quit if they introduce dueling. I generally am not in favor of it since my past experiences have not been that pleasant. I see it as something I will have to “tolerate” that brings absolutely nothing to the game for me. In other words, in terms of the quality of my experience, it is a net loss. Does that make me selfish? Sure it does…just like those who want dueling are being selfish as well. We all want what we want and those who disagree with us are being selfish.

Sadly…and I am sincere in that…this is not likely to be an issue where we will all come to some grand consensus. I suspect it will be one of those issues that…one side will be happy and the other side will be unhappy…as happens with a fair number of issues in any game.

Just decline the duel. It’s really that simple. Most players will leave you alone if you decline.

If a player persists aggressively after you decline a duel, then it’s not dueling anymore it’s harassment.

Audrey.7246:

Scrambles.2604:

I would love to squash the idea that dueling automatically equals harassment. Anytime a good tool/feature is suggested for GW2 people are up in arms about trolls and harassment.

DPS meter – Nope! elitism, bullies, kick from groups, i play how i want, harassment, etc.
Gear inspect – Nope! Elitism, harassment, belittlement, kick from groups, etc.

Yes, harassment may occur around those things, as well as duels. But harassment also occurs everywhere else! All the while, reasonable folk go unnoticed when using these things properly and only the trolls stick out, so i guess only trolls must use those things!

People are up in arms for good reasons with certain tools and features by way of experience with them in other games.

DPS and gear checks split the FFXI community into a small segment of elite players that absolutely would not play with anyone else and a large group of disdained casuals. Due to this (and the uniformly hated iLevel gear progression system), new FFXI players are almost extinct and the game has to resort to login campaigns and introduce many, many solo activities to keep the existing player base.

I’ll bring up Aion again as an example of dueling harassment – it happens in all popular cities in that game and causes all sorts of chat based arguements.

The primary reason for DPS meters and gear checks is to permit segregation of the player base by the players. Dueling can also be misused as a “recruitment” tool for membership application to guilds or dungeon parties – i.e. we will only accept the winner of a duel between two applicants.

Again, what harm is it if methods of implementing dueling can be done in a way where it is transparent to other players? Sure, harassment can be accomplished in many ways for many activities, but why not try to make it more difficult when possible?

I bolded the part i take issue with. You can’t automatically assume these tools are for harassment/segregation.

I used DPS meters for years in WoW for self improvement (i was a healer and Recount has an effective healing meter). I also had friendly DPS contests with the other healers in my guild (because farming MC can only be fun for so long, and sometimes you need to create mini games).

But the issue you described that occurs with WoW and Final Fantasy isn’t about meters, it’s gearscore and content that can only be completed if you have a certain level of stats. GW2 has no gear treadmill so this wouldn’t happen.

I also like the inspect feature because, well i like i looking at other peoples gear. It’s interesting to see how people gear. I wouldn’t ever belittle someone for poor gear choices. Chances are they are still leveling/gearing and don’t have the gear they would prefer yet.

But Noooooo. We can’t have these things because of Elitism and trolls and the tiny ill-willed minority, that exist in a higher frequency as a forum boogie man than an actual in game entity. You only ever hear about the people that abuse the tools, not the countless others that go unnoticed because they use them correctly.

And for your dueling scenario…Why shouldn’t a guild be able to use duels as a method for selecting candidates? It’s their guild let them play how they want.

Finally, duel transparency would probably be harder to program, and it sounds like you can only see the duel if you are participating. Half the fun is just watching people duel. I wont totally knock your idea but it feels like an unnecessary caveat when every other MMO has managed to just have regular open world duels.

These threads never get old.

There are two things at play here.

1. Griefers are apoplectic that Guild Wars 2 is so well designed that they can’t get their jollies from harassing any person they come across.

2. Another group, just as belligerent, is upset because Anet doesn’t provide a way for them to get attention from a captive audience.

I have yet to meet someone who is pro-dueling that doesn’t exude a completely toxic attitude while spending an exorbitant amount of time justifying why other people should be forced to watch them prove their manhood against someone else.

^

What he said. Although it is more of a ego thing than anything, and in no way woupld prepare someone who is familiar with pve be prepared for pvp, as its a whole different ball game, its just another reason for haters to hate. Whether on the forums against anti dualers, and vica versa, or in game against those wanting to dual and trolling others that dont.

Except in a few instances I cant see dualing lore supported anyway. The whole game (pve) is built around all the races banding together to stop the elder dragons. Human and charr, the two races that hate each other the most, have largely put aside their differences and are working together. The idea of dualing goes against that, even ascalonians and kyrtans, more hated enemies, are now living and working together. With the idea of all the peoples banding together, dualing each other doesn’t fit in. Whether or not its fun and people enjoy it is not the question, but the current state of Tyria doesnt allow for it. Thats why it wasnt put in at the beginning, and pvp and wvw were created for that end.

Scrambles.2604:

i’m not trying to persuade the person i’m talking to. I’m trying to persuade the reader. There are 10x more views than comments on this thread.

I feel like an outsider would see the same level of absurdity i’m trying to argue against. I tell my MMO vet friends about the anti-duelers in GW2 and they don’t believe me. “why would anyone be against dueling?”

Even in this thread, there is disbelief that resistance against consensual, open world dueling is even a thing.

Would I be correct in assuming that your friends would be in favor of dueling? My point is not about preaching to the choir. There is no benefit to that in terms of increasing the numbers of those in favor. What about the fence sitters? The people who are leery about dueling but not yet decided, who might be alienated by a dismissive position, and convinced by an inclusive one? Those are the ones worth convincing.

Ravion Hawk.4736:

I watched this enough in other MMOs that allowed dueling in PvE:

Situation 1
Troll tries to duel X
X declines (insert any reason here)
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Situation 2
Troll tries to duel X
X has auto-decline active
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Both situations usually escalates to the point that the trolls try to duel everyone on the map and verbally attack anyone that doesn’t duel them.

No Dueling in PvE, go to the Mists and find a 1v1 or start a dueling only server.

This is exactly my experience, the most recent game was swtor ( which actually has no auto decline, and I do not trust anet to implement this well at all, sadly) and is not the only game which gave me this very frequent irritation and harassment. I was sick of being followed by these freaks; my ignore list reached the limit quite fast ( though that still allowed them to follow me and be as annoying and disruptive as possible until I decided to log off or go to another map/world).

It was awesome to have a day without it. It got worse after they had a server merge; at first it was not quite as bad.

I have seen a sizable cadre of players who truly seem to WANT to receive an auto decline or decline, with it’s built-in scenario for trash talking garbage and harrassment.

While there will be players who just want to duel friends and have no desire to harass anyone, there will also be this low life bunch. It is absolutely irresistible to this sort.

I totally do not want to enable it. It has been THE number 1 source of harassment in gaming in my experience, second to none ( on pve servers; pvp servers are full of gank squads of course, it goes with the territory…roll on a pvp server and that is what it is). It would take second place only to the ability to gank the unsuspecting in open world pve.

The design of gw2 has so far been the most harassment free game I have seen. Sorry, but I do not want to add this jerk magnet to open world pve. I have seen what it does, no claims of " it is a fantasy that does not happen" carry any weight with me for I have seen many, many times that it does.

I dislike having to “vote” no to something someone would find fun; I know there are people who would not abuse it. Yet I know what I have seen and in no way want it here. This is now the only game I play so that I can be free of such trash.

Phadde.7362:

I think it’s a lovely concept. I think it should be prohibited from the central parts of the main cities, and that you should have to enable your character to be able to accept duels in the first place – Making it opt-in instead of opt-out is the best. If you don’t like dueling, you’re not affected. If you do, I think it will be an absolute blast!

+100) I remember in WoW there were several places where lovers met regularly duels (not to mention pvp – Dalaran cellars and towns under capitals. It was fun)

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

i’m not trying to persuade the person i’m talking to. I’m trying to persuade the reader. There are 10x more views than comments on this thread.

I feel like an outsider would see the same level of absurdity i’m trying to argue against. I tell my MMO vet friends about the anti-duelers in GW2 and they don’t believe me. “why would anyone be against dueling?”

Even in this thread, there is disbelief that resistance against consensual, open world dueling is even a thing.

Would I be correct in assuming that your friends would be in favor of dueling? My point is not about preaching to the choir. There is no benefit to that in terms of increasing the numbers of those in favor. What about the fence sitters? The people who are leery about dueling but not yet decided, who might be alienated by a dismissive position, and convinced by an inclusive one? Those are the ones worth convincing.

I wont deny that my friends would probably be more agreeable to my position, no doubt. But my friends aren’t in favor of dueling or anti-dueling…because they come from a time where there wasn’t an “anti-dueling.” The games we played just had duels, it went without saying.

That’s why the anti-dueling notion is so baffling to myself and others. My experience has been with MMOs that just had duels as a standard feature, along with auction houses, quests, pvp, etc. If you didn’t like dueling you didn’t do it. Hit decline and move on. For the most part, duelists congregated outside of major cities, so if you wanted to duel you would go there. At the same, you had the freedom to duel other places.

GW2 is the first MMO i’ve played without duels, so it’s the first time i’ve experienced resistance to what i’ve come to know as a staple feature in the genre. The dev’s have indicated that it wasn’t intentionally left out, as in they don’t think it doesn’t belong in the game. But people fight against any suggestions for duels like it doesn’t belong in this game.

Brtiva.9721:

Ravion Hawk.4736:

I watched this enough in other MMOs that allowed dueling in PvE:

Situation 1
Troll tries to duel X
X declines (insert any reason here)
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Situation 2
Troll tries to duel X
X has auto-decline active
Troll verbally attacks X in chat
More Trolls join in.

Both situations usually escalates to the point that the trolls try to duel everyone on the map and verbally attack anyone that doesn’t duel them.

No Dueling in PvE, go to the Mists and find a 1v1 or start a dueling only server.

This is exactly my experience, the most recent game was swtor ( which actually has no auto decline, and I do not trust anet to implement this well at all, sadly) and is not the only game which gave me this very frequent irritation and harassment. I was sick of being followed by these freaks; my ignore list reached the limit quite fast ( though that still allowed them to follow me and be as annoying and disruptive as possible until I decided to log off or go to another map/world).

It was awesome to have a day without it. It got worse after they had a server merge; at first it was not quite as bad.

I have seen a sizable cadre of players who truly seem to WANT to receive an auto decline or decline, with it’s built-in scenario for trash talking garbage and harrassment.

While there will be players who just want to duel friends and have no desire to harass anyone, there will also be this low life bunch. It is absolutely irresistible to this sort.

I totally do not want to enable it. It has been THE number 1 source of harassment in gaming in my experience, second to none ( on pve servers; pvp servers are full of gank squads of course, it goes with the territory…roll on a pvp server and that is what it is). It would take second place only to the ability to gank the unsuspecting in open world pve.

The design of gw2 has so far been the most harassment free game I have seen. Sorry, but I do not want to add this jerk magnet to open world pve. I have seen what it does, no claims of " it is a fantasy that does not happen" carry any weight with me for I have seen many, many times that it does.

I dislike having to “vote” no to something someone would find fun; I know there are people who would not abuse it. Yet I know what I have seen and in no way want it here. This is now the only game I play so that I can be free of such trash.

Your issue doesn’t sound like it’s with duels, though. It sounds like you just don’t like getting harassed.

If someone is that persistent in harassing you, they aren’t interested in dueling, they are interested in harassing you!! The duel has well come and gone and now you’re left with a persistent troll. This person enjoys trolling, not dueling, or else they would move on to the next duel.

Instead you’ve managed to encounter the type of person that would be harassing you regardless of what area of the game you’re in. But for some reason you choose to blame dueling for this person’s harassment.

It’s like blaming an ATM because someone robbed you when you were pulling out cash. Should we get rid of ATMs because they attract robbers?

Scrambles.2604:

It’s like blaming an ATM because someone robbed you when you were pulling out cash. Should we get rid of ATMs because they attract robbers?

cute, a none sequitur in the wild. ATMs are necessary items and hence make it necessary to accept their inherent risks. Dueling is not.

As for that whole harassment debate: Yes, that is not necessarily a dueling thing. But dueling appeals to personality types that are also fond of harassment.

Algreg.3629:

Scrambles.2604:

It’s like blaming an ATM because someone robbed you when you were pulling out cash. Should we get rid of ATMs because they attract robbers?

cute, a none sequitur in the wild. ATMs are necessary items and hence make it necessary to accept their inherent risks. Dueling is not.

As for that whole harassment debate: Yes, that is not necessarily a dueling thing. But dueling appeals to personality types that are also fond of harassment.

what makes you say that? There is no dueling in GW2 yet there is still harassment. I’ve experienced more harassment running dungeons in GW2 than in any PvP area of the game.

There is no evidence that duels = more harassment. This is just regurgitated forum hear-say. Even if it “seems” that way, correlation doesn’t equal causation and there are always more variables at play.

Someone mentioned harassment in SWTOR earlier, which is a free to play game. Well, if there are no barriers to entry in the game then there is nothing to prevent someone who lives only to harass people to do just that in the game with little worry about repercussions.

That may not be the reason for harassment, but we have just as much evidence that F2P is source of harassment as we do that duels are a source of harassment…aka no evidence, just conventional wisdom.