Guild Wars 2

I didn’t read the whole topic, I don’t know what Recount is, but I gather it’s some sort of statistical tracking thing which was very popular in the raiding environment of a certain other MMORPG. Something to keep track of your damage per second, total damage, total damage per specific enemy, death count, healing, etc.—I’m all for that, if it’s available to just you, and for just you. I don’t see the purpose of it being available to everyone in the group, about everyone in the group.

The dungeon community is already relatively elitist. Sure, there are listings with no requirements stated, but a lot of the time, they do have their little requirements nonetheless. Oh, you’re not x profession, nope, kick. Gear check, link gear pl0x. Now, in my case, I am besides the profession (I like playing Mesmer) in most cases perfectly fine. I have Ascended gear of Berserker (and Berserker+Valkyrie trinkets too for that matter), Rabid, Dire, Soldier, Sentinel stats. What can be (Infused) are (Infused). I got my Exotic Assassin’s set (there is no Ascended). I have over 15k AP (why would that matter..). I have 80 Agony Resistance. All my weapons are Legendary (and I carry all weapons of the profession), I can have whatever stats I want. I use rather decent Sigils, Energy and Battle. It can’t be linked, but all my gear has +5 stat +5 AR Infusions (Power – Weapons, Toughness – Armor, Precision (that includes Versatile Precise on Defensive slots) – Trinkets). Different sets have different Runes, e.g., Scholar (damage), Strength (Might stacking. Yes.. Mesmer can do that rather well and copy it to everyone else for bursts), Traveler (when running). I use expensive consumables. I also somewhat know what to do (but there are dungeons I’ve never touched because of how demotivating this community can be). That’s besides the point. When you see all these “exp only, Warrior/Guard” messages, you get.. demotivated. You may put up your own LFG, but then the elitists joins you regardless and start dictating that everyone should be x, y or z, even if you announce it as a casual run. Or nobody joins for several minutes, 10 minutes go by, nobody joined. 15 minutes. Maybe one or two guys did, but they left because it took so long to fill up. Yeah, that’s fun. That’s waiting for fun.

I understand, it’s frustrating to get really bad players in your group. I understand that it’s fun to kill a boss quickly. I also get somewhat frustrated when you try telling people something, and they simply refuse to listen. But I don’t mind bringing along inexperienced players. I can solo most dungeon encounters anyways, so if they mess it up really badly, I can complete it while they are watching from the floor. I don’t even see it as leeching. I’m meeting new people and have fun interacting with them in the chat. Everyone needs to learn sometime. If the experienced players are unwilling to teach, inexperienced players are stuck with inexperienced players. That’s not to anyone’s benefit.

Sure, initially, everyone is inexperienced when something is new. There’s a few people who will look at encounters and figure them out, share the tactics, and then everyone copies them. I remember that from raiding in that other MMORPG, myself and a select few others would brainstorm encounters, analyze what is killing us, what to do during phases, attacks, positioning, how to conquer and get our purples. It was at most 4 of us.. in a group of 36 other players. I’m certain over half the elitist players who asks for experienced only runs, wouldn’t be able to deduct how to do them if they weren’t told at some point. It’s like builds. Very few people on average actually makes new builds, most people gets them from somewhere and complains about how few builds there are…

I don’t want to be a part of the elitist community. But I sure aren’t having all that much fun. I wait for fun, and get discouraged. So I go do PvP in World vs. World instead, do open world content, or solo the dungeon path, even if I wanted to do it with others. I rarely do dungeons. Reason? All these elitist players with their requirements. Would I like to do them? Sure, I would love to do more dungeons, even if the rewards are a bit lackluster and the challenge isn’t quite there. I still want to do them, it’s social and fun when you get the right groups. But when I feel unwanted, it doesn’t exactly motivate me to play that game mode. It’s exclusive, not inclusive, when players are making it revolve around a few professions, and on top of that don’t want to bring in players who hasn’t done something before. They may be awesome players even, maybe better players than you (Lyssa forbid!), but you exclude them purely because they aren’t experienced, or consider themselves as experienced. I at least, don’t like this game’s overall dungeon running community.

A dps meter would be nice. I don’t care if the whole party can see it or not, I’d mainly want it so I can improve my own skills. I remember from other MMOs I was a lot less sloppy with my rotation because of tools like this. Plus it would allow everyone to start theorycrafting more easily.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Conncept.7638:

Granted it would still be preferable if I didn’t have to deceive other players to do so, but that is neither my fault, nor my problem. Tell Anet to fix their barely functional stat system, their borked dungeons, and do something about the hostile community before you tell players not to play content they have every right to participate in.

You have not, however, described a situation in which your “right” to participate in content is the issue. You are describing a situation in which you blatantly disregard preferences expressed by other players for your own advantage.

Would it be “nice” of other players to take anyone who wanted to go? Absolutely. However, they are not obligated to do so. It would also be “nice” to respect others preferences. Your disregard for those preferences is a blatant expression of entitlement, not you exercising your rights.

Well let’s see, I’m playing the game, therefore I legally purchased the game, and by that I legally have the right to participate in the content in it without being barred by other players. I can legally be barred by Anet, but not other players. You couldn’t piece together that I own and am playing the game on your own?

You are right, nothing requires those players to take any other player, including me. Just as nothing requires me to abstain from joining any group I wish, including zerker speedruns. The only way either one of use would be justified is if either did something breaking the terms of service, including damaging the others play experience, in which case the other would rightfully have a reason to use the kick system without repercussion. But as I said, a half a dozen times now, I went through months worth of these runs without incident, so your justfication is not only speculative, but speculation, of previous events which did not happen.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Conncept.7638:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

You’re projecting, you actually have no idea why Anet is not supporting dungeons at the moment. It very well could be that there is a small population of people who actually run dungeons. However, it’s dishonest to try and pin that on “elitist” behavior since you have exactly zero evidence beyond a limited perception and personal bias to substantiate such a claim.

You need to look up what ‘projection’ means. They blatantly stated that dungeons weren’t being given attention because they are not played enough to warrant the amount of development time they take. As for why they are not being played enough, that is not a ‘projection’ but my opinion, and one based on no small amount of experience with the dungeon community, not to mention the collective experience of every other casual player I know who has come in to contact with the dungeon community.

You are behaving in a toxic manner…

And I’m going to stop you right there because there is no point to the remainder of what you have to say, as it is all based on that completely false point.

What I did:
1. Did not harm a single player in any playgroup I was in, in any way, ever.
2. Met the requirements of the playgroup even if I did not meet listed specifications. They wanted speed, I lost them none as compared to a normal run. They wanted efficiency, I was just as efficient as a fifth zerker, in fact I would argue more so over the long run.
3. Did not break any part of the Arenanet’s terms of service. No rule requires that a player meet other players expectations. Else the dungeon community would likely be even smaller, as the ‘hardcores’ would have had every other player banned for not playing to their expectations.

It is true I did not abide by what other players expected of me, but by no definition whatsoever was my behavior ‘toxic’. If it were, action would have been taken against me through the report system, and it never was.

thief about to be lynched: they didnt notice I stole anything and I wasnt caught therefore it is alright.

DonQuack.9025:

thief about to be lynched: they didnt notice I stole anything and I wasnt caught therefore it is alright.

You don’t know what lynching means do you? Here’s a hint, it only happens when the person gets caught. And by the way, how do they not find out he stole anything yet convict him of stealing?

Ignoring the triplicate nonsense that is your analogy, it is still completely inapplicable. Theft is one person versus another, dungeons happen in parties, therefore we were cooperating; I was just cooperating without letting them know how I was doing so.

With what I did, everyone gained as equally as they would have had I not taken any action at all. My not meeting their expectations but meeting their requirements had literally the exact same affect as someone who would have met both their expectations and their requirements. So logically, if what I did was wrong, it would have also been wrong for me to do nothing, as well as wrong for me to allow a fifth zerker to join.

Their expectations are based on what they think they know, which rather than being dictated by solid real personal experience, is largely drawn from the broadly spread and blindly accepted information, true or otherwise. And nothing requires anyone to follow that information that does not wish to, nor allow any player to force any other player to do so.

If there is anything worse than an elitist, it is that right there.

Conncept.7638:

2. Met the requirements of the playgroup even if I did not meet listed specifications. They wanted speed, I lost them none as compared to a normal run. They wanted efficiency, I was just as efficient as a fifth zerker, in fact I would argue more so over the long run.

How does that work? You do less damage then a 5th “zerker” so how exactly did you not make them lose time? And how is that more efficient? 0_o

Not bashing your playstyle here, I really don’t care what pugs do since I don’t pug, but I just don’t see the logic behind this statement.

Matt.8264:

Conncept.7638:

2. Met the requirements of the playgroup even if I did not meet listed specifications. They wanted speed, I lost them none as compared to a normal run. They wanted efficiency, I was just as efficient as a fifth zerker, in fact I would argue more so over the long run.

How does that work? You do less damage then a 5th “zerker” so how exactly did you not make them lose time? And how is that more efficient? 0_o

Not bashing your playstyle here, I really don’t care what pugs do since I don’t pug, but I just don’t see the logic behind this statement.

Because conditions only do really low damage until they have a large sustained amount, meaning that measured against average enemies, short fights where you barely evade and they die quick, they do look weak. However measured against an enemy with a large HP pool, who frequently interrupts your DPS with high powered attacks, they really aren’t that much lower of DPS than power.

And since you skip nearly everything but bosses in your average speed run, the enemies with the largest HP pools and biggest attacks, it really is just as fast. If any time is lost its an immeasurably small amount, like I said, no one ever even noticed I was a condimancer. In fact I wonder if having 4 zerks and a power/condi could possibly be faster than 5 zerkers.

Conncept.7638:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Conncept.7638:

Granted it would still be preferable if I didn’t have to deceive other players to do so, but that is neither my fault, nor my problem. Tell Anet to fix their barely functional stat system, their borked dungeons, and do something about the hostile community before you tell players not to play content they have every right to participate in.

You have not, however, described a situation in which your “right” to participate in content is the issue. You are describing a situation in which you blatantly disregard preferences expressed by other players for your own advantage.

Would it be “nice” of other players to take anyone who wanted to go? Absolutely. However, they are not obligated to do so. It would also be “nice” to respect others preferences. Your disregard for those preferences is a blatant expression of entitlement, not you exercising your rights.

Well let’s see, I’m playing the game, therefore I legally purchased the game, and by that I legally have the right to participate in the content in it without being barred by other players. I can legally be barred by Anet, but not other players. You couldn’t piece together that I own and am playing the game on your own?

You are right, nothing requires those players to take any other player, including me. Just as nothing requires me to abstain from joining any group I wish, including zerker speedruns. The only way either one of use would be justified is if either did something breaking the terms of service, including damaging the others play experience, in which case the other would rightfully have a reason to use the kick system without repercussion. But as I said, a half a dozen times now, I went through months worth of these runs without incident, so your justfication is not only speculative, but speculation, of previous events which did not happen.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Conncept.7638:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

You’re projecting, you actually have no idea why Anet is not supporting dungeons at the moment. It very well could be that there is a small population of people who actually run dungeons. However, it’s dishonest to try and pin that on “elitist” behavior since you have exactly zero evidence beyond a limited perception and personal bias to substantiate such a claim.

You need to look up what ‘projection’ means. They blatantly stated that dungeons weren’t being given attention because they are not played enough to warrant the amount of development time they take. As for why they are not being played enough, that is not a ‘projection’ but my opinion, and one based on no small amount of experience with the dungeon community, not to mention the collective experience of every other casual player I know who has come in to contact with the dungeon community.

You are behaving in a toxic manner…

And I’m going to stop you right there because there is no point to the remainder of what you have to say, as it is all based on that completely false point.

What I did:
1. Did not harm a single player in any playgroup I was in, in any way, ever.
2. Met the requirements of the playgroup even if I did not meet listed specifications. They wanted speed, I lost them none as compared to a normal run. They wanted efficiency, I was just as efficient as a fifth zerker, in fact I would argue more so over the long run.
3. Did not break any part of the Arenanet’s terms of service. No rule requires that a player meet other players expectations. Else the dungeon community would likely be even smaller, as the ‘hardcores’ would have had every other player banned for not playing to their expectations.

It is true I did not abide by what other players expected of me, but by no definition whatsoever was my behavior ‘toxic’. If it were, action would have been taken against me through the report system, and it never was.

Being intentionally deceptive is toxic, because of the selfish nature being exhibited. If you create a group that states it’s a “fun” run, no skipping etc etc and someone else comes in there on that premise and expects to do otherwise that is also toxic. It’s toxic because it shows a lack of respect for other people whether or not it is an actionable offense against the TOS. In your case you say it caused no conflict, I am willing to take you at your word, however I have personally witnessed conflict arise from people doing exactly what you did. It all could be avoided simply by respecting others, no more no less. Since however you have players that can not seem to do that, filtering tools could go a long way as I said to keeping people honest.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

because of the selfish nature being exhibited….

Wait what? Selfishness would mean that I was acting for my benefit and mine alone.

I wanted the dungeon run, they wanted the dungeon run, we all wanted it done fast and without running in to problems. My taking the position got it done fast, and without problems, just as well as anyone else would have. Every reason every member of the group joined was fulfilled by every other member of the group and divvied out in equal measure to everyone involved, including me. Everyone was there for their own benefit, but willing to work as a group for mutual benefit.

So, if my reasons and the results of my actions were both ‘selfish’ and exactly the same as those of everyone else, then wasn’t everyone involved selfish?

I’m seriously confused about this, because where I come from, working with others for mutual benefit is, y’know, the opposite of being selfish. :-/

Conncept.7638:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

because of the selfish nature being exhibited….

And once again a giant baseless assumption in the very first sentence.

I wanted the dungeon run, they wanted the dungeon run, we all wanted it done fast and without running in to problems. My taking the position got it done fast, and without problems, just as well as anyone else would have. Every reason every member of the group joined was fulfilled by every other member of the group and divvied out in equal measure to everyone involved, including me.

So, if my drive, my actions, and the results of my actions were both ‘selfish’ and exactly the same as those of everyone else, then wasn’t everyone involved selfish?

I’m seriously confused about this, because where I come from, working with others for mutual benefit is, y’know, the opposite of being selfish. :-/

Did the group specifically state they wanted only players wearing zerker gear? If you intentionally were deceptive then it’s selfish… end of story. People are not deceptive because they are being altruistic.

I know you will never see it that way, you feel your right to play how you want supersedes anyone else’s desire to play how they want. There really is nothing more that can be said on the matter. Thank you for the conversation, be well.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Conncept.7638:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

because of the selfish nature being exhibited….

And once again a giant baseless assumption in the very first sentence.

I wanted the dungeon run, they wanted the dungeon run, we all wanted it done fast and without running in to problems. My taking the position got it done fast, and without problems, just as well as anyone else would have. Every reason every member of the group joined was fulfilled by every other member of the group and divvied out in equal measure to everyone involved, including me.

So, if my drive, my actions, and the results of my actions were both ‘selfish’ and exactly the same as those of everyone else, then wasn’t everyone involved selfish?

I’m seriously confused about this, because where I come from, working with others for mutual benefit is, y’know, the opposite of being selfish. :-/

Did the group specifically state they wanted only players wearing zerker gear? If you intentionally were deceptive then it’s selfish… end of story. People are not deceptive because they are being altruistic.

I know you will never see it that way, you feel your right to play how you want supersedes anyone else’s desire to play how they want. There really is nothing more that can be said on the matter. Thank you for the conversation, be well.

Well since we’re throwing logic completely out the window.

It wasn’t selfish, end of story.

Is that how that works now? Just three words and you don’t actually have to provide any logical train of thought? Why did my debate teacher never teach me this? MY LIFE IS A LIE!

I did not hurt anyone in any way, shape, or form. And you have failed to prove in any way that my actions were anymore selfishly driven than that of anyone else looking to do a dungeon. I would thank-you for a conversation, but a conversation requires that two people provide content of substance beyond accusations and assumption, which frankly, you haven’t.

Conncept.7638:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Conncept.7638:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

because of the selfish nature being exhibited….

And once again a giant baseless assumption in the very first sentence.

I wanted the dungeon run, they wanted the dungeon run, we all wanted it done fast and without running in to problems. My taking the position got it done fast, and without problems, just as well as anyone else would have. Every reason every member of the group joined was fulfilled by every other member of the group and divvied out in equal measure to everyone involved, including me.

So, if my drive, my actions, and the results of my actions were both ‘selfish’ and exactly the same as those of everyone else, then wasn’t everyone involved selfish?

I’m seriously confused about this, because where I come from, working with others for mutual benefit is, y’know, the opposite of being selfish. :-/

Did the group specifically state they wanted only players wearing zerker gear? If you intentionally were deceptive then it’s selfish… end of story. People are not deceptive because they are being altruistic.

I know you will never see it that way, you feel your right to play how you want supersedes anyone else’s desire to play how they want. There really is nothing more that can be said on the matter. Thank you for the conversation, be well.

Well since we’re throwing logic completely out the window.

It wasn’t selfish, end of story.

Is that how that works now? Just three words and you don’t actually have to provide any logical train of thought? Why did my debate teacher never teach me this? MY LIFE IS A LIE!

I did not hurt anyone in any way, shape, or form. And you have failed to prove in any way that my actions were selfishly driven. No amount of accusation or assumption change those facts. I would thank-you for a conversation, but a conversation requires that two people provide content of substance pertaining to the subject, which frankly, you didn’t.

You were intentionally deceptive yes? What was the motivation for that deception? If you did not perform the deception then would you not have been invited to join the group? So the intention of deceiving is selfish because you used the deception as a means to allow yourself to join a group that may have said “no thank you” if you were honest about how your character was geared. Whether or not you got through the dungeon or did not slow the group down is irrelevant. If a person puts a clearly defined expectation for the group they made and you use deception as a means to include yourself in that group as opposed to being honest with them there really isn’t another word to use besides it being selfish.

Conncept.7638:

Well let’s see, I’m playing the game, therefore I legally purchased the game, and by that I legally have the right to participate in the content in it without being barred by other players. I can legally be barred by Anet, but not other players.

Oh? Yes, your purchase gives you the right to play the content. Players who decide to make a group of a specific composition that does not include you are not barring you from playing the content. At worst, you might be inconvenienced by having to make your own group or join a different one.

Conncept.7638:

You are right, nothing requires those players to take any other player, including me. Just as nothing requires me to abstain from joining any group I wish, including zerker speedruns.

Yes, nothing requires you to abstain from joining a group that stated they did not want what you bring to the table. Nothing … except for respect for others and common decency.

Conncept.7638:

The only way either one of use would be justified is if either did something breaking the terms of service, including damaging the others play experience, in which case the other would rightfully have a reason to use the kick system without repercussion. But as I said, a half a dozen times now, I went through months worth of these runs without incident, so your justfication is not only speculative, but speculation, of previous events which did not happen.

I presented no justification, nor did I engage in speculation. You are the one trying to justify your behavior by saying you didn’t get caught, which is irrelevant to the issue of respect for others.

Conncept.7638:

Harper.4173:

Conncept.7638:

Yenn.9185:

Conncept.7638:

Mitch.4781:

ipan.4356:

This is the very thing I hate in games like this.

why though? It can help you improve ur skills

No it doesn’t, there is no skill in blindly adhering to a system. That’s like saying filling out forms is a skill or obeying the traffic lights as you drive.

I have several builds I like on each of my characters, and only one build on one character out of all of them is a berserker build, the most ‘efficient’ build. But I am, good with all of them. I used to carry through CoE speed runs on a tanky condi glyph elementalist. I didn’t tell anyone that was my build, as it was none of their business, or yours. Because they would have likely made the same ill-informed snap judgments you and most players would make were they to be given the tools you are suggesting.

Yes, in a ‘play how you want’ casual party. In a zerker only party, I don’t think so. Ofc, if the other party members is unskilled, it wouldn’t be a good run regardless of gear anyways.

Also if your playing alone, in open world for example, I don’t care what build you use. But when start partying with other player, you’re no longer just responsible for your own. What build you use doesn’t just affect you, but also your party members.

It wasn’t always in a casual party, I joined plenty of the all zerker parties, and just lied about my build, and it made absolutely no difference, the clear times didn’t change and not once in the months it took me to get my CoE gear did anybody even notice. In fact I frequently got complimented and friended from my dungeon runs.

Why? No on plays perfect no matter how much they laud themselves as ‘leet’, I often saved those parties when one or multiple people missed a dodge against Subject Alpha. For the few unnoticeable seconds they lost on each run, every 3-4 runs I singlehandedly saved them minutes by averting a wipe. In fact I liked joining those parties, as it insured that I was to be the only condimancer in ANets laughably dysfunctional stat system.

You’re exactly the kind of person that we need filters and tools to keep away from our parties. Not because of your gear – but because of your attitude.

No idea what ‘attitude’ you’re talking about, I was a perfectly genteel dungeon runner. I never detracted from anyone’s play experience, and was not once reported, I can’t even recall an instance of anyone getting angry at me. Strictly speaking I didn’t even lie, I just joined the parties and didn’t say anything.

I was playing the game how I wanted, and it is no business of anyone else how I do so as long as I do not detract from their own way of playing the game, which I did not in any way, shape, or form.

Elitist players who make these type of groups on the other hand have abused and pushed players away from the dungeon content to the point that ANet considers dungeon content and updates a complete waste of development time. Such players are the reason we are probably never going to see another major dungeon update ever again. Thanks for that.

My attitude, in spite of my lying, did absolutely no harm to anyone at any time. While the attitude of those you are defending has completely destroyed a section of the game’s content to the point that even the developers themselves have openly abandoned all hope of repairing it.

Let’s put it this way. It’s clear you don’t understand what you did wrong and where the problem is.

Let me make it clearer.

You’re the reasons elitists ask for armor pings and people get kicked out of groups.
Elitist players aren’t in the wrong asking for a specific build/armor set-up – everyone has a right to play their way and with whomever they want. Even other elitists.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Harper.4173:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Is there some overlap between “leechers” being “people who do nothing at all to help in the dungeon” and “leechers” being “people who are trying their hardest but not outputting as much DPS as one would consider optimal?”

You can identify the former without a meter.

They’re the same thing result wise. Nobody cares exactly why they’re not doing their job. It could be because they don’t care or don’t know how to – but the end result is a slower sloppier run.

Well, okay. If you wanna lump honest effort in with apathy.

I think people should be allowed to set a standard on their runs. Having a meter or not won’t exactly change the attitudes of people players might not want to play with anyway, so, w/e.

I get what you’re saying.

But the worst and laziest player isn’t much worse than the absolute most tryhard player if the run takes the exact amount of time.

It’s about time not attitude. It’s about efficiency not feelings.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Conncept.7638:

Granted it would still be preferable if I didn’t have to deceive other players to do so, but that is neither my fault, nor my problem. Tell Anet to fix their barely functional stat system, their borked dungeons, and do something about the hostile community before you tell players not to play content they have every right to participate in.

You have not, however, described a situation in which your “right” to participate in content is the issue. You are describing a situation in which you blatantly disregard preferences expressed by other players for your own advantage.

Would it be “nice” of other players to take anyone who wanted to go? Absolutely. However, they are not obligated to do so. It would also be “nice” to respect others preferences. Your disregard for those preferences is a blatant expression of entitlement, not you exercising your rights.

Because he considers himself “superior” and above what other players think or want. He knows better what they want and what’s best in their party so he’ll disregard the requirements and join anyway.

Just because he can.
And people ask why “elitists” ask for armor pings.

Conncept.7638:

DonQuack.9025:

thief about to be lynched: they didnt notice I stole anything and I wasnt caught therefore it is alright.

You don’t know what lynching means do you? Here’s a hint, it only happens when the person gets caught. And by the way, how do they not find out he stole anything yet convict him of stealing?

Ignoring the triplicate nonsense that is your analogy, it is still completely inapplicable. Theft is one person versus another, dungeons happen in parties, therefore we were cooperating; I was just cooperating without letting them know how I was doing so.

With what I did, everyone gained as equally as they would have had I not taken any action at all. My not meeting their expectations but meeting their requirements had literally the exact same affect as someone who would have met both their expectations and their requirements. So logically, if what I did was wrong, it would have also been wrong for me to do nothing, as well as wrong for me to allow a fifth zerker to join.

Their expectations are based on what they think they know, which rather than being dictated by solid real personal experience, is largely drawn from the broadly spread and blindly accepted information, true or otherwise. And nothing requires anyone to follow that information that does not wish to, nor allow any player to force any other player to do so.

You have no hard factual data that suggest that you met their requirement.
The only certainty we have is that you disregarded other player’s desires and trampled their right to play the game the way they want to just because you feel entitled to.
The rest of it is speculation and irrelevant.

It doesn’t matter what the end result is. You broke a rule and broke people’s trust. Regardless of outcome you’ve done wrong by those people.

And it’s for that reason they should exclude you from runs.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

You were intentionally deceptive yes? What was the motivation for that deception? If you did not perform the deception then would you not have been invited to join the group? So the intention of deceiving is selfish because you used the deception as a means to allow yourself to join a group that may have said “no thank you” if you were honest about how your character was geared. Whether or not you got through the dungeon or did not slow the group down is irrelevant. If a person puts a clearly defined expectation for the group they made and you use deception as a means to include yourself in that group as opposed to being honest with them there really isn’t another word to use besides it being selfish.

No it isn’t irrelevant, neither your opinion nor that of anyone else is empirical evidence of what is right or wrong. Or what is your reason why that couldn’t just as readily be dictated by my opinion? There isn’t one. What dictates right or wrong is the intent of your actions and the affect your actions have on the people and world around you. My intent was that everyone in the group be satisfied and fulfilled in their reason for joining the group, and that was the results of my actions without exception.

And the reason that I would have been barred from those groups had I shared my build? Because of people’s perceptions, nothing to do with right or wrong. Which was the exact same reason I didn’t share my build, because your perceptions do not dictate my effect on other people. You are doubly depending on someone’s perceptions rather than an actual causal/effect relationship, a completely illogical and entirely personally view which sounds high and mighty in theory, but is morally destructive in practice. You do what your logic dictates is best for the people around you. If you’re wrong you’re wrong, and that happens sometimes. But hey! I wasn’t! So that’s that.

And to the people who actually have the gall to claim “You’re doing this because you think you’re better than everyone else.” Quit being children, there is absolutely no call for that. Believing you are right and acting on it has nothing at all to do with superiority or intellectual bigotry, and is something everyone does at times. No one here can say they have never acted on a hunch. Had a run or two proven I was having a negative affect, I would have stopped. But guess what? A few runs didn’t prove that, they proved I was right. I had nothing but a positive affect on the group.

Not one person has provided any reason beyond “it is wrong, because I’ve been taught it’s wrong regardless of any other factor”. If what you are taught has no logical basis it does not concern me and you can keep it to yourself. You can believe what you want, but as for me, what is right is dictated by how it affects people before it is dictated by rules. There is no rhyme or reason for a moral system which one follows to the negative affect of those the system should have been made to mutually protect. In this case, there were two parties, myself and others, and my actions satisfied the needs of everyone involved. I did nothing wrong.

You do what your logic dictates is best for the people around you. If you’re wrong you’re wrong, and that happens sometimes. But hey! I wasn’t! So that’s that.

Do you have any actual data that you’re not wrong? And that you were doing as much damage as that 5th zerker?
Because if not you’re not right – just deluding yourself.

How did you test those runs? Please bring us actual data and a proper method. Not hunches.

It’s wrong because regardless of their perceptions or beliefs you’re supposed to respect other people’s opinions and wishes. Because ultimately it’s their choice – not yours.

You might very well be right but people might simply not want to have anything to do with you. And that’s not wrong. It’s their choice and their right to make that choice.

Keep telling yourself you did nothing wrong while I’ll keep telling people to watch out for your kind and make people ping gear.

Having something like this for personal use wouldn’t hurt anyone and would only prove beneficial to the game.

I am trying to understand this thread.

Are speed-runners or “elitists” allowed to go to the bathroom if an impeding intestinal aggro should arise? If not, i would definitely rather to be on a casual run, because not everyone is a fat spoiled kid like Cartman to have his mom come with a portable toilet to crap on.

I wonder how elitists would perform under those circumstances…. I

jcavlopes.1736:

I am trying to understand this thread.

Are speed-runners or “elitists” allowed to go to the bathroom if an impeding intestinal aggro should arise? If not, i would definitely rather to be on a casual run, because not everyone is a fat spoiled kid like Cartman to have his mom come with a portable toilet to crap on.

I wonder how elitists would perform under those circumstances…. I

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. You gotta go when you gotta go. Even speed runners wouldn’t kitten on their chair.

Yenn.9185:

jcavlopes.1736:

I am trying to understand this thread.

Are speed-runners or “elitists” allowed to go to the bathroom if an impeding intestinal aggro should arise? If not, i would definitely rather to be on a casual run, because not everyone is a fat spoiled kid like Cartman to have his mom come with a portable toilet to crap on.

I wonder how elitists would perform under those circumstances…. I

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. You gotta go when you gotta go. Even speed runners wouldn’t kitten on their chair.

They’d use a bottle, maybe a tube if required

Yenn.9185:

jcavlopes.1736:

I am trying to understand this thread.

Are speed-runners or “elitists” allowed to go to the bathroom if an impeding intestinal aggro should arise? If not, i would definitely rather to be on a casual run, because not everyone is a fat spoiled kid like Cartman to have his mom come with a portable toilet to crap on.

I wonder how elitists would perform under those circumstances…. I

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. You gotta go when you gotta go. Even speed runners wouldn’t kitten on their chair.

Go watch south park, make love not warcraft. Then i guess you will get what i meant.

This would be an awesome feature and I think it’s best if it could be toggled in the LFG tool – parties with it active and without it active. That way everyone can play with like-minded people, be it omfgscumbagelitist or ooohlookatmeiamaspecialsnowflaketeehee. Also, to all the haters out there – keep in mind that the OP was not only made about a dps meter, but about a contribution meter.

This would be unnecessary if people would respect the requirements in the LFG texts, but so many people do not that this feature would be a blessing.

Everyone’s time is important and this way we could make sure that the people in a party are at least like-minded.

So sick of bearbows who range at 1500, rifle warriors and staff-only guardians. Doing a dungeon is a team effort and one shouldn’t be able to afford to be selfish. Yes, the dungeon will finish eventually, but maybe in that extra time you could do something else? And it’s never “just a few seconds” more because subpar builds and lack of skills lead to prolonged fights and an increased chance of wiping.

People need to learn to pull their weight.

Algreg.3629:

as always the adequate reply to this request is “other people´s stats are non of your kitten business”.

Wrong. They are very much your business when they group up with you and you have set some requirements. If they don’t meet them, they have no business there.

Harper.4173:

ipan.4356:

Harper.4173:

Funky.4861:

@lhos- you want some ‘serious need for co-operation’? How about:
-karka queen
-Tequatl
-Triple trouble
-Marionette
-Assault knights
-TA aetherpath

…just off the top of my head.

Elitists who are impatient tend to have a perfectionist effect on those around them (and the game in general). We have them to thank for the ascended gear grind and lack of build diversity in pve; it’s play their way or you are inferior.

OT: We don’t need more methods of discriminating against casual players in a casual game.

And nobody wants that.
We want a tool through which we can spot and have nothing to do with the “casual players” not discriminate against them.

That is the definition of discrimination.

I am far more comfortable forcing elitists to play with casuals.

It will teach them much needed (and seriously lacking) social skills.

So discriminating one way is fine. But not the other.
Let’s force one part of the player base to play with people they don’t want to and in ways they dislike.

Let’s not force the other part of the player base to be respectful of people’s rights to play in any way they see fit. Because reasons.

Your statement is exactly the reason elitists are so toxic towards “carebears” or “playhowyouwants”.

You call them terrible, antisocial, and a million other things but you’re just dying to force yourselves into their parties.

Great logic there.

Also – I’m more comfortable kicking casuals from parties that aren’t for casuals – it will teach them much needed (and seriously lacking) step up your game.

All jokes aside – you’re talking about social skills – but who’s lacking social skills?

The people just looking to play with similar people or the people ignoring LFG requirements and just joining groups that do not and will not welcome them because they’re not what the people in that group want.

The whole problem is social – and some people don’t have the social skills required to realize you’re not supposed to just breeze on through a party if you have no business there in the first place.

It’s all about decency and respect for other people’s rights to play.

Quoted for truth.

Also, @ Conncept.7638 – you, Sir, are a master troll. You coat your posts with truths and then hide amongst them the grossest of lies and falsehoods so that it’s very hard to make out the difference. The /b/ is strong in you. My respect.

I’d appreciate it. Otherwise it’s just an obfuscated fact and bad players hide behind it. I like transparency and the arguments in this from the casual crowd remind me of a petting zoo.

Charleston Chew.1209:

ProtoGunner.4953:

I’d appreciate it. Otherwise it’s just an obfuscated fact and bad players hide behind it. I like transparency and the arguments in this from the casual crowd remind me of a petting zoo.

Bad players, eh? Casual crowd. Mmm such elitism wow. I guess that makes you good player, amiright? Get off your high horse.

Calling things what they are is not “elitist”. It is safe to say that GW2 has the worst average player skill I have ever witnessed in any computer game.

Algreg.3629:

Calling things what they are is not “elitist”. It is safe to say that GW2 has the worst average player skill I have ever witnessed in any computer game.

I sincerely doubt it. It’s just it’s much easier in other games to not see it (due to greater separation of players using many arbitrary requirements, often called “skill” even when they have nothing to do with real skill at all).

If ArenaNet needs evidence that adding recount support would be a bad idea, they need look no further than this thread.

Even talking about recount causes arguments, strife and hate. It would only be worse if it were in game.

Conncept.7638:

-snip-

I don’t really have a preference for this either way, but if group A is asking for a specific type of armor for whatever reason, be that efficiency, elitism, or generation of test data/time attack data, and you join without meeting that criteria even though it is not disallowed by the system or by the players through ping checks, it -is- a moral failing on your part, by joining that group knowing that you didn’t have what they were asking for. You assumed that completion of the content was the ultimate goal, but it could easily have been for another reason (like acquiring test data) that your build could have affected more fully.

The reason they created that group didn’t matter. The fact they had a reason should have been enough,

Imo.

You can’t just assume that you know what people want. That’s no better a view than the “elitists” you’re talking about. I really don’t care too much about this disparity between dungeon runners, but at the very least you can show some courtesy and abide by the rules of the dungeon you join, or just dont if that is too hard to do. the game is starved for normal runs.

Have to agree with OP. I can not call myself an elitist, because did not worry about even the most horrible groups in dungeons. However, I am constantly observe absolutely nonsense a lot of players doing. More than half of the people do not understand the mechanics of their own classes. Because of this, they just push everything that is not on CD. From here there are all kinds of rangers who push out of melee packs all that is possible, use hunter’s shot on Tequila and wait a few seconds before realize that they do not attack, and so…
Misunderstanding of mechanic and opacity of their efficiency generates attenuation interest to them. People think that the whole game is all about AA spam, simply because no one knows what they are only spamming AA and do not make them any remarks. From here comes the global sense of indifference to what they do. Like “I play whatever I like, because there is no difference, so anyone who is dissatisfied with it – just an elitist.” Such a body will lie in global bosses and wait till some1 res them ignoring all the comments in the chat.

Serious attitude to the mechanics – just what is missing in this game. Many people do not like it so much that they even refuse to play it. And recount is just powerful tool for straightening the arms and causing a sense of responsibility. Elitists will not go away as whatever. And this thing will make the game better.

But only damage count is not enough. Need to consider everything – absorbed damage, overdamage, healing, healing/damage with combo fields etc.. For comprehensive understanding of classes

I find it rather amusing how these threads are filled with people wanting a “high performance group” for phat lootz and yet they can’t seem to find a guild or likeminded people to run it regularly.

I mean GW2 has this multiguild feature and you can play with anyone in your own region, how hard could it be to form such a group?

Makes me wonder if these people are so insufferable that they can’t play together at all.

@ Megaz, I agree. The perception of the game by an individual really affects how they treat this whole thing. For people that think that dungeons are just AA spam until done, they see no issue because they can AA as well, without giving attention to the fact that there might be people trying to run a dungeon a different way for entertainment.

@Swag, also a good point. There’s obviously some people that perfectly match the definition of “elitist” in the sense that they will only play with the “best performance group” they can get, only to end up wasting hours of time that could be spent doing the dungeon repeatedly in the hopes that they can cobble such group out of passers by. Still, I’m careful with throwing that term around. Rarely do I find genuine elitists in this game. I find dedicated people, people that like to push themselves to complete a dungeon as fast as possbible, and also people that help beginners and do things with very laid back attitudes.

It’s hard for me to make a big deal out of this, honestly. You cant force people to play with players they don’t want to play with, and you cannot force people to not attempt to join you, so is it so hard to just deal with these situations as they come?

Most of the dungeon runners I’ve run with that are concerned for speed can actively sniff out low DPS without even pinging gear. And even those players just patch it by saying “X, take banner for speed” or switch their own loadout to balance the drop they perceive. A visible meter, imo, wont do anything to change the attitudes of people that even care to use it, and those players will still get, and in some cases need to allow, the players that do not meet their output specifications.