Guild Wars 2

morrolan.9608:

phys.7689:

You dont believe in advantages, but WvW is all about advantages. gear is one of the smallest advantages you can get in WvW. If this is a sticking point for you, you will hate WvW with a passion.

Well I don’t.

Substance E.4852:

If you play WvW enough, you should be drowning in ascended materials to the point that not making the gear is a matter of choice, not inability.

Not dragonite ore. And the mats are more than just the dust, ore and shards, you need 5 types of wood and ore etc etc.

I think there is some confusion with ascended, you can buy the parts from the BLTC you only need
vision crystal
weapon blade
weapon head
ascended inscription.

you dont need to gather anything except the vision crystal part, which is bloodstone dust, dragonite, empyreal, and skill points. all awarded for regular gameplay in decent amounts.

and before you say you dont want to get robbed by crafters, crafters are notoriously cheap, and tend to not value their time that much

the profit on deldrimor ingots is 66 silver per ingot for something you can only make once a day
profit on spiritwood plank is -28 silver (actually cheaper to buy this)

profit on the inscription is like 6-8 gold BUT it requires them to get 10 dark matter which you get from breaking down exotics, whose cheapest price is usually around 1.1 gold, how many i takes to get 10? based on luck could be as few as 4, could be as many as 20. So, yeah basically break even on this piece

point is, you need vision crystal and gold, both of which you get from normal play in WvW

Mackdose.6504:

morrolan.9608:

eisberg.2379:

Never said that it wouldn’t make a difference, just saying that it is unlikely to make a difference. There are so many things that have to line up equally to for ascended gear to make the difference between winning and losing, and you named several of them in your post.

So why do hardcore WvW players and guilds insist on playing in exotics instead of not caring?

I think insisting on exotics is pretty convincing that it doesn’t make a difference to them.

Strawman, once ascended becomes more available you can bet they will be insisting on ascended. Why care about someone in yellows or greens if it makes no difference?

morrolan.9608:

Mackdose.6504:

morrolan.9608:

eisberg.2379:

Never said that it wouldn’t make a difference, just saying that it is unlikely to make a difference. There are so many things that have to line up equally to for ascended gear to make the difference between winning and losing, and you named several of them in your post.

So why do hardcore WvW players and guilds insist on playing in exotics instead of not caring?

I think insisting on exotics is pretty convincing that it doesn’t make a difference to them.

Strawman, once ascended becomes more available you can bet they will be insisting on ascended. Why care about someone in yellows or greens if it makes no difference?

no one can insist on anything in GW2 ascended gear can look like whites, and you cant even inspect, you can also ping any gear just from having the codes. Not only this, but WvW is an open field where you can go wherever you want. Elitists are going to be elitist, if it wasnt ascended it would be WvW rank, or titles, or whatever. You cant live your life trying to catch up to their expectations.

morrolan.9608:

Mackdose.6504:

morrolan.9608:

eisberg.2379:

Never said that it wouldn’t make a difference, just saying that it is unlikely to make a difference. There are so many things that have to line up equally to for ascended gear to make the difference between winning and losing, and you named several of them in your post.

So why do hardcore WvW players and guilds insist on playing in exotics instead of not caring?

I think insisting on exotics is pretty convincing that it doesn’t make a difference to them.

Why care about someone in yellows or greens if it makes no difference?

We’re not talking about yellows and greens, where the difference compared with ascended is pretty big. The jump from rare to exotic is the largest stat jump in the game, relatively speaking.

Agree with the OP, you want Ascended and Legendary go do Fractals, you Want WvW stick to Exotics.

Honestly these Ascended have done only two things, Destroyed the game and the community..

phys.7689:

no one can insist on anything in GW2 ascended gear can look like whites, and you cant even inspect, you can also ping any gear just from having the codes. Not only this, but WvW is an open field where you can go wherever you want. Elitists are going to be elitist,

Its not about being elitist its about giving your team the best chance to win. Its about not being the one to die in the middle of a battle and allowing large numbers of the opposing players to rally. These guys have done the theorycrafting on it.

Mackdose.6504:

We’re not talking about yellows and greens, where the difference compared with ascended is pretty big. The jump from rare to exotic is the largest stat jump in the game, relatively speaking.

So stat increases do make a difference?

morrolan.9608:

Mackdose.6504:

We’re not talking about yellows and greens, where the difference compared with ascended is pretty big. The jump from rare to exotic is the largest stat jump in the game, relatively speaking.

So stat increases do make a difference?

Difference to what morrolan?

I do not have a problem with ascended stats in WvW.

Don’t really care to see it removed, I worked for it and would prefer to use it otherwise I wasted my time and gold and I don’t care for that.

morrolan.9608:

phys.7689:

no one can insist on anything in GW2 ascended gear can look like whites, and you cant even inspect, you can also ping any gear just from having the codes. Not only this, but WvW is an open field where you can go wherever you want. Elitists are going to be elitist,

Its not about being elitist its about giving your team the best chance to win. Its about not being the one to die in the middle of a battle and allowing large numbers of the opposing players to rally. These guys have done the theorycrafting on it.

its not a team, its a server and its a place thats meant to house all players from level 1 to level 80. People expecting everyone on there server to pass some arbitrary bar are fools.
People laugh at uplevels in WvW, but fully geared ascended people still get crushed by uplevels zerging em down, or tactically coming from behind when you were looking in front. Or sitting on an Arrow cart raining hell on you in a closed space while you were fighting someone else.

you are a more likely to rally off the low skill player than the exotic guy. We are talking about the difference in level 78 exotics and level 80 exotics here. People want to tell themselves they died due to gear tier, but its so rarely the case.

So why do i want ascended? hmm i dont really necesarily want ascended itself, but what it represents. You can work to improve your charachter. Thats a part of WvW. Its not fair, but that kind of makes it interesting a different way

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

I do not have a problem with ascended stats in WvW.

Don’t really care to see it removed, I worked for it and would prefer to use it otherwise I wasted my time and gold and I don’t care for that.

Didn’t you read the thread? Ascended makes no difference in WvW, so sorry to say, you already wasted your time and gold.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

I do not have a problem with ascended stats in WvW.

Don’t really care to see it removed, I worked for it and would prefer to use it otherwise I wasted my time and gold and I don’t care for that.

Didn’t you read the thread? Ascended makes no difference in WvW, so sorry to say, you already wasted your time and gold.

Glad you came around.

phys.7689:

its not a team, its a server and its a place thats meant to house all players from level 1 to level 80. People expecting everyone on there server to pass some arbitrary bar are fools.

I dunno about your server but my server is a team, all, or at least mostly, working for the good of the server.

phys.7689:

you are a more likely to rally off the low skill player than the exotic guy.

Not in T1 battles. I’ve experienced them as an upleveled as well as in full tiered exotics (now with some ascended weapons) and from personal experience it makes a difference.

phys.7689:

you dont need to gather anything except the vision crystal part, which is bloodstone dust, dragonite, empyreal, and skill points. all awarded for regular gameplay in decent amounts.

(edited stuff out here)

point is, you need vision crystal and gold, both of which you get from normal play in WvW

Dragonite is not not obtainable in the amounts required for the vision crystal in WvW… unless you want it to take several months and MANY times longer than the PvE counterpart…

Aberrant.6749:

phys.7689:

you dont need to gather anything except the vision crystal part, which is bloodstone dust, dragonite, empyreal, and skill points. all awarded for regular gameplay in decent amounts.

(edited stuff out here)

point is, you need vision crystal and gold, both of which you get from normal play in WvW

Dragonite is not not obtainable in the amounts required for the vision crystal in WvW… unless you want it to take several months and MANY times longer than the PvE counterpart…

yeah i agree dragonite is a problem in WvW, but the best source of dragonite takes about 5-10 min (except lyssa) for 30, so its not really that big a deal. Hopefully they figure an objective or something that gives you dragonite aside from smc.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Vanthian.9267:

Please note I mistakenly took marginal gain (aka viewing from the top down) at the end when comparing the two critical hits together. I should have looked at the pure damage gain (aka viewing from the bottom up, because that is where we are heading).

I notice another error there: at the end when you divide them, you mistakenly put in the wrong number for the ascended damage (11,090.115 instead of 11,909.115 like it should have been), which makes it an even bigger disparity.

Very nice catch. A entire thread missed that. If you use the correct number in the fraction the new marginal gain is 19.7995% or for pure damage gain… 24.6875%.

Pretty massive difference. Thanks again for catching that.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

I’d go with just the first 2 words.

That would work, but I doubt it’ll happen. What they could do is make ascended gear as easy to get as exotic. You know, like top-stat gear was in GW1.

@Vanthian, could you please post your build for your notes? It’s a bit hard to follow your calculations for us non-thieves if you post a build that isn’t listed in the thief sub forum. Granted it could be under a title somewhere in there but the search function for these forums are kitten.

logosloki.3958:

@Vanthian, could you please post your build for your notes? It’s a bit hard to follow your calculations for us non-thieves if you post a build that isn’t listed in the thief sub forum. Granted it could be under a title somewhere in there but the search function for these forums are kitten.

The second sentence of the post has the build lay out. The old 20/30/0/0/20 build. However, I didn’t include the traits if that is what you are asking for in this case (well not all of them).

The traits used are (please note that some of the traits have been changed, namely Mug):
Deadly Arts: Mug (III) Dagger Training (IX)
Critical Strikes: Signets of Power (II) Side Strikes (III) Executioner (XI)
Trickery: Flanking Strikes (IV) Your Choice Here for Master Trait

Usually you would add in Bountiful Thief (VII) but you don’t’ have too. This is to remove either Protection from the target or Aegis (or any helpful boon really). Another possibility would be Thrill of the Crime (V) so you have fury and more might when doing the combo.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Galen Grey.4709:

no offence you keep bringing dota up but last i checked dota was not 500vs500vs500 with a random number of people joining either of the 3 teams where you could build siege engines that do many times the damage of a single player and effect 5x as many targets as any AOE attack any of those 1500 can do etc.. Iron branch makes a difference in dota cause in dota you’re faced with a balanced fight. no +1 to any attribute is going to make a difference when you are likely to find yourself in a fight where you’re outnumbered or out classed because they got more siege weapons etc…

Dota is closer to SPvP then WvW and their like you correctly state stats matter more so everyone is given the same stats. WvW isnt that not even close though

All you are doing is bringing up red herrings. “lol there are lots of factors at play in zerg wars” does not refute the fact that having better stuff means you are stronger. That DOTA is “balanced” is irrelevant – because a single Iron Branch or a Tread switch into strength is the difference between getting ganked and escaping with 5 HP.

You know when ascended gear was announced I tried an experiment, I woke up one early morning and decided to see what happens if I try WvW without any armor or trinkets on, just a weapon and nothing else. I did it early more just so I can remove the zerg element I wanted as close to 1 on 1 fights as I could get. Before people started showing up and I thought it would be pointless to continue I had 7 kills and 2 deaths We’re not talking 1 tier difference here but a whole 5 of them and this was early morning I am talking 5:30am here when things are kinda more balanced. Thing is balanced fights in WvW are the exception not the rule, Its rare that you get in 1v1 fights. When I was wearing no armor at all I had 2 people in 2 separate occasions run away from me even though they had a statistical advantage on me even if they were actually upscaled level 2 characters. What I am trying to say is some people avoid 1v1s prefaring to have the support of a team with them which makes sense because this isnt a duel like gameplay this is a war and in a war you dont go looking for personal fights to prove how more powerful you are then any of your opponent soldiers, you do what you can to reach your objective while staying alive and that means having backup.

Also that dota is balanced isnt irrelevant its the whole reason why something as small as an Iron Branch can mean the difference between life or death. Do you think that iron branch would make any difference if you get faced with a 2vs1 fight, never mind things like x vs y where x and y can be anywhere between 1 – 1000 ? Do you think the iron branch would make a difference if the enemy group could use siege weapons that do 3x the damage you do to 5x the amount of players you ever could in one shot? Do you think it would make a difference if there was a wall protecting them that takes quarters of hour to bring down? Do you think that would make a difference if some of your team or their team would be under-leveled with no way of catching up during this encounter?

Simply speaking the more balance you have the more chance the most minuscule advantage will tip the scale. The less balance you have the more minuscule changes will be negligible.

Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.

edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.

TooBz.3065:

I love how everyone says skill > gear until you try to take theirs away.

Gear > skill.

Just take on any uplevel ever.

Then I assume no player really has ascended gear in WvW yet because I sure dont and I do pretty good.

Yet somehow I doubt all those who I fought against lacked ascended gear.

TooBz.3065:

I love how everyone says skill > gear until you try to take theirs away.

Gear > skill.

Just take on any uplevel ever.

I’d like to react on this: both skill AND gear are important:

• Player 1 (85% control of class) vs. Player 2 (85% control of class). Both have the same skill.
• Player 1 however doesn’t have ascended, while Player 2 does.
• Player 2 has an edge (~15% more damage and defense) on Player 1.

• Player 1 (85% control of class) vs. Player 3 (60% control of class).
• Player 1 and player 3 will be matched, because even though player 3 is less competent (he will miss sometimes, dodge at wrong intervals, use skill wrongly, but he still is rather ok with his class), the match will still be close, because player 3 has that extra 15%.

On the other hand: uplevels are usually stronger than level 80s, when the uplevel is a competent player (anything from 70%-90% class control) – and the level 80 is someone with 0-50% class control.

logosloki.3958:

Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.

edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.

Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only.

Here is a link to a full exotic Thief with the set up I mentioned. To the right are the stats.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.1g.0.8.1g.0.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|1g.0.1g.0.1g.0.1g.0.1g.0.1g.0|k39.u23b.0.0.k47|0.0|0.0.0.0.0|e

So… either you don’t understand what I was looking at or you have on extra things I didn’t include in my list. I used full exotic berserker gear with ruby orbs with a 20/30/0/0/20 Thief build. All of which you could see if you fully read my previous post.

Edit: You also seem to have a problem with name calling. Did my math scare you into feeling the need to try putting me down to make yourself feel better?

Also, here is the link for the ascended gear stat page:
http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.0|8.5g.0.8.5g.0.0.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7.1g.a7|4s.0.2s.0.3s.0.2s.0.3s.0.2s.0|k39.u23b.0.0.k47|0.0|0.0.0.0.0|e

Galen Grey.4709:

TooBz.3065:

I love how everyone says skill > gear until you try to take theirs away.

Gear > skill.

Just take on any uplevel ever.

Then I assume no player really has ascended gear in WvW yet because I sure dont and I do pretty good.

Yet somehow I doubt all those who I fought against lacked ascended gear.

You’d be doing better with ascended.

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

TooBz.3065:

I love how everyone says skill > gear until you try to take theirs away.

Gear > skill.

Just take on any uplevel ever.

Then I assume no player really has ascended gear in WvW yet because I sure dont and I do pretty good.

Yet somehow I doubt all those who I fought against lacked ascended gear.

You’d be doing better with ascended.

of course, no one is denying that only that you’re not useless without it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

TooBz.3065:

I love how everyone says skill > gear until you try to take theirs away.

Gear > skill.

Just take on any uplevel ever.

Then I assume no player really has ascended gear in WvW yet because I sure dont and I do pretty good.

Yet somehow I doubt all those who I fought against lacked ascended gear.

You’d be doing better with ascended.

of course, no one is denying that only that you’re not useless without it.

No one’s really denied that, either.

Vanthian.9267:

logosloki.3958:

Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.

edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.

Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …

Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.

Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…

(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%

going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers

(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239

4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%

none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.

If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.

Galen Grey.4709:

Vanthian.9267:

logosloki.3958:

Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.

edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.

Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …

Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.

Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…

(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%

going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers

(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239

4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%

none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.

If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.

I’m guessing what he means is, he did the calculations for both sets of gear without jewels. If you add them in on the exotic, you then also add them in on the ascended, and nothing really changes.

Galen Grey.4709:

Vanthian.9267:

logosloki.3958:

Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.

edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.

Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …

Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.

Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…

(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%

going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers

(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239

4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%

none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.

If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.

Even at 8.6% damage it’s still more than a sigil of force on which people are currently willing to spend 2g 36s . If 5% isn’t meaningless neither is 8.6%.

Is your problem the reduction? Would it make a different to ask that scaling automatically scales everyone up level 80 with full ascended gear?

Galen Grey.4709:

You know when ascended gear was announced I tried an experiment, I woke up one early morning and decided to see what happens if I try WvW without any armor or trinkets on, just a weapon and nothing else. I did it early more just so I can remove the zerg element I wanted as close to 1 on 1 fights as I could get. Before people started showing up and I thought it would be pointless to continue I had 7 kills and 2 deaths We’re not talking 1 tier difference here but a whole 5 of them and this was early morning I am talking 5:30am here when things are kinda more balanced. Thing is balanced fights in WvW are the exception not the rule, Its rare that you get in 1v1 fights. When I was wearing no armor at all I had 2 people in 2 separate occasions run away from me even though they had a statistical advantage on me even if they were actually upscaled level 2 characters. What I am trying to say is some people avoid 1v1s prefaring to have the support of a team with them which makes sense because this isnt a duel like gameplay this is a war and in a war you dont go looking for personal fights to prove how more powerful you are then any of your opponent soldiers, you do what you can to reach your objective while staying alive and that means having backup.

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

Also that dota is balanced isnt irrelevant its the whole reason why something as small as an Iron Branch can mean the difference between life or death. Do you think that iron branch would make any difference if you get faced with a 2vs1 fight, never mind things like x vs y where x and y can be anywhere between 1 – 1000 ?

Yes? In DOTA you get gank attempts by multiple heroes all the time. In those situations where you are outnumbered the small differences are why you might be able to kill one before you die or escape just barely holding on to your life.

Do you think the iron branch would make a difference if the enemy group could use siege weapons that do 3x the damage you do to 5x the amount of players you ever could in one shot? Do you think it would make a difference if there was a wall protecting them that takes quarters of hour to bring down? Do you think that would make a difference if some of your team or their team would be under-leveled with no way of catching up during this encounter?

Simply speaking the more balance you have the more chance the most minuscule advantage will tip the scale. The less balance you have the more minuscule changes will be negligible.

More red herrings. That there are other unbalanced factors at play does not refute the existence of another that could easily be remedied to not be there.

And, again, if it makes no difference, why have it there in the first place? Why would removing it have any negative impact at all since it’s in a sea of WvW stuff?

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

Galen Grey.4709:

TooBz.3065:

I love how everyone says skill > gear until you try to take theirs away.

Gear > skill.

Just take on any uplevel ever.

Then I assume no player really has ascended gear in WvW yet because I sure dont and I do pretty good.

Yet somehow I doubt all those who I fought against lacked ascended gear.

You’d be doing better with ascended.

of course, no one is denying that only that you’re not useless without it.

No one’s really denied that, either.

Actually they have. There are people who stated that “You would get destroyed”, or when someone says they beat ascended people on their lower level character others have said “Was the other player AFK, or already half dead?” or something like that. Plus other people have said they are useless to their team if they do not have BIS gear.

DocHolliday.5921:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vanthian.9267:

logosloki.3958:

Did you miss some exotic gear for your exotic dummy? Because I get 104% crit damage not 86% crit damage.

edit: In fact you must of missed something since even without food buffs, bloodlust or might, with d/p I get 2239 base power for exotic zerk/zerk orb/ruby dummy not the 2089 you list.

Check your trinkets and rings and such for the extra jewel. The calculation I used were for the base item only. …

Isnt that cheating though? There is no reason why anyone wouldnt use a jewel with their trinkets. That changes things quite a bit. by adding jewels power goes up to 2239.

Ergo going with basic damage no buffs etc…

(981×2239×2.4) / 1836 = 2871 vs 3108 which means increase in damage is actually 8%

going with the max damage, food buffs, critical whatevers

(981x 3306×2.4) / 1836 = 4239

4239 × 257% = 10,894 vs 11909 = 8.6%

none of it is close to the 24% you calculated.

If you have a good reason why you think adding jewerly to the trinkets in exotics is not fair feel free to share but personally I think they should be there considering those stats are build in ascended gear anyway.

I’m guessing what he means is, he did the calculations for both sets of gear without jewels. If you add them in on the exotic, you then also add them in on the ascended, and nothing really changes.

No, Galen is right about that. Ascended trinkets have an ascended jewel “built in”. They have no upgrade slot, only the infusion slot, and instead their stats are as high as they’d be if an ascended-level jewel was slotted in it.

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

Bastien.1645:

I haven’t even finished reading the whole thread but please stop with this idiotic argument of comparing Exotic to Ascended, you can make enough gold to buy a full exotic set just by levelling, the pieces cost about 2-4g each in the TP and there are no time restrictions. Your argument is so idiotic it basically sounds like, oh if people don’t want to dedicate 6 months to getting geared up for pvp then they shouldn’t be willing to dedicate a few hours of champ farming/dungeon runs (Assuming you blew all the gold you made while levelling already) either!!

Our point is that you don’t need to “Gear up” for WvW to succeed at WvW, and it’s disingenuous to exaggerate the effect ascended gear has on the outcome of fights.

Theorycrafting is cool and all when you have perfect-world scenarios to reproduce your calculations. Thing is, you don’t. Perfect world scenarios where you’d get the full benefit of your stats never happen unless your opponent is AFK in the middle of a field, and at that point you could be naked and kill them.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

You should try reading the conversation again. My point was that I have personal anecdotes too, ones where I’ve seen the impact of those small differences.

What I fail to see is your point, actually. Nothing of what you’ve said has anything to do with anything – the exact point is that fighting at your best can make the difference between victory and loss – and none of your statements refute that.

Try again.

Acctually i dont see Ascended as the game winning part of WvW, best example of that are the fight between pugs and guild, often pug zergs outnumber the guild zergs by 2:1 both are in gernerell equally equiped so that pug would have a damage Advantage of 100% but they ofter get totally wiped by the guilds. WvW is about coordination, looking for the best place to fight on, better Equipment increase ofcourse your abilities but it is not game winning part. WvW is not the place to run out of Formation and call for duel …

Bastien.1645:

I believe Ascended gear should be removed from PvP. It creates the typical “Grind to Win” scenario that is so common in other MMO/Games.

I feel that Arena Net created an amazing PvP game with Guild Wars 1 and they should stick to how things were run. I also predict a very certain power creep for Melee classes like Warriors/Thiefs who benefit so much from weapon power as opposed to classes like Mesmers/Necromancers, this will create a distinct imbalance between these classes that will be compensated by 1) Nerfing the Warrior/Thief/Guardian/Ranger and effectively screwing players who don’t have Ascended armor on these characters; OR 2) Not nerfing them and creating a huge gap in power between “Physical DPS” classes and “Magic” users.

WvWvW players like to PvP, but any PvP’er will do everything in their power to achieve an advantage over the enemy, the important thing for most PvP players is winning (yes they have fun too but winning is the most important), pretty soon we will have fully ascended players in WvWvW which will make it unplayable for people who don’t have hundreds of hours to dedicate to a single character in order to equip them with full ascended armor, I believe the weapons cost 200g each, the trinkets/accessories using Laurels would take almost a year to get and the back piece is not even available, and that’s assuming you do your daily every single day. Fractals should not be required to play PvP competitively.

WvWvW players already have to spend ~50+g on Runes + exotics to remain competitive, I believe that’s enough as you should naturally accumulate that gold levelling your character and doing a few dungeons along the way, a lot of people will say ascended armour makes no difference but if we assume both zergs are of equal skill, the zerg that is fully ascended will always beat the non ascended zerg that has 5-10% less stats, it’s the same thing as putting a level 80 zerg vs a upleveled zerg, which zerg do you think will win? And don’t get me started on roaming/sniping groups fully ascended vs non ascended people, in the law of averages, we have to assume everyone is at the same skill level so the person who is better geared will win. Could a pro player beat a fully ascended “newb”? Of course, but pro players a very rare and they don’t make up the average WvWvW in our realm. Heck, my realm is full of PvE players (Desolation) so if anything Ascended gear is awesome as the sheer power of these people will carry me but I still believe these items should not be implemented in this game mode.

Solution: It’s simple, just scale Ascended gear to Exotic stat level upon entering a Borderland. I believe fair play should be encouraged and “grind to win/pay to win” (crafting) should not be encourage or allowed in PvP, this is not World of Warcraft and I believe the fair play/balanced gear model from Guild Wars 1 was perfect and it should be encouraged not scrapped. If I wanted to go “3 Shot noobs with overpowered gear” I’d go back to WoW and grind RBGs to 2200.

Regards,
Bastien

If you lose any fight, ever, and blame ascended, YOU are terrible at this game.

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.

Omne.4603:

Bastien.1645:

I believe Ascended gear should be removed from PvP. It creates the typical “Grind to Win” scenario that is so common in other MMO/Games.

I feel that Arena Net created an amazing PvP game with Guild Wars 1 and they should stick to how things were run. I also predict a very certain power creep for Melee classes like Warriors/Thiefs who benefit so much from weapon power as opposed to classes like Mesmers/Necromancers, this will create a distinct imbalance between these classes that will be compensated by 1) Nerfing the Warrior/Thief/Guardian/Ranger and effectively screwing players who don’t have Ascended armor on these characters; OR 2) Not nerfing them and creating a huge gap in power between “Physical DPS” classes and “Magic” users.

WvWvW players like to PvP, but any PvP’er will do everything in their power to achieve an advantage over the enemy, the important thing for most PvP players is winning (yes they have fun too but winning is the most important), pretty soon we will have fully ascended players in WvWvW which will make it unplayable for people who don’t have hundreds of hours to dedicate to a single character in order to equip them with full ascended armor, I believe the weapons cost 200g each, the trinkets/accessories using Laurels would take almost a year to get and the back piece is not even available, and that’s assuming you do your daily every single day. Fractals should not be required to play PvP competitively.

WvWvW players already have to spend ~50+g on Runes + exotics to remain competitive, I believe that’s enough as you should naturally accumulate that gold levelling your character and doing a few dungeons along the way, a lot of people will say ascended armour makes no difference but if we assume both zergs are of equal skill, the zerg that is fully ascended will always beat the non ascended zerg that has 5-10% less stats, it’s the same thing as putting a level 80 zerg vs a upleveled zerg, which zerg do you think will win? And don’t get me started on roaming/sniping groups fully ascended vs non ascended people, in the law of averages, we have to assume everyone is at the same skill level so the person who is better geared will win. Could a pro player beat a fully ascended “newb”? Of course, but pro players a very rare and they don’t make up the average WvWvW in our realm. Heck, my realm is full of PvE players (Desolation) so if anything Ascended gear is awesome as the sheer power of these people will carry me but I still believe these items should not be implemented in this game mode.

Solution: It’s simple, just scale Ascended gear to Exotic stat level upon entering a Borderland. I believe fair play should be encouraged and “grind to win/pay to win” (crafting) should not be encourage or allowed in PvP, this is not World of Warcraft and I believe the fair play/balanced gear model from Guild Wars 1 was perfect and it should be encouraged not scrapped. If I wanted to go “3 Shot noobs with overpowered gear” I’d go back to WoW and grind RBGs to 2200.

Regards,
Bastien

If you lose any fight, ever, and blame ascended, YOU are terrible at this game.

Granted, I am terrible at this game, and YOU are adding nothing of substance.

Now, let’s remove ascended from WvW.

Omne.4603:

If you lose any fight, ever YOU are terrible at this game.

Yeah, here’s what you really MEANT to say though, right?

But nevermind that. Let’s roll with your assumption you made in what you actually posted. Of course, if we do that, we ALSO have to assume that gear in general doesn’t matter. You can’t say the upgrade from any gear level to any other gear level matters if the upgrade from exotic to ascended doesn’t matter.

So if you really want to put your money where your mouth is, spend the next month doing all your PvP using nothing but a white-quality weapon appropriate for your level. And if, during that time, you lose any fight ever, you are just as terrible at this game as anyone suggesting ascended gear needs to be removed from WvWvW.

Omne.4603:

Bastien.1645:

I believe Ascended gear should be removed from PvP. It creates the typical “Grind to Win” scenario that is so common in other MMO/Games.

I feel that Arena Net created an amazing PvP game with Guild Wars 1 and they should stick to how things were run. I also predict a very certain power creep for Melee classes like Warriors/Thiefs who benefit so much from weapon power as opposed to classes like Mesmers/Necromancers, this will create a distinct imbalance between these classes that will be compensated by 1) Nerfing the Warrior/Thief/Guardian/Ranger and effectively screwing players who don’t have Ascended armor on these characters; OR 2) Not nerfing them and creating a huge gap in power between “Physical DPS” classes and “Magic” users.

WvWvW players like to PvP, but any PvP’er will do everything in their power to achieve an advantage over the enemy, the important thing for most PvP players is winning (yes they have fun too but winning is the most important), pretty soon we will have fully ascended players in WvWvW which will make it unplayable for people who don’t have hundreds of hours to dedicate to a single character in order to equip them with full ascended armor, I believe the weapons cost 200g each, the trinkets/accessories using Laurels would take almost a year to get and the back piece is not even available, and that’s assuming you do your daily every single day. Fractals should not be required to play PvP competitively.

WvWvW players already have to spend ~50+g on Runes + exotics to remain competitive, I believe that’s enough as you should naturally accumulate that gold levelling your character and doing a few dungeons along the way, a lot of people will say ascended armour makes no difference but if we assume both zergs are of equal skill, the zerg that is fully ascended will always beat the non ascended zerg that has 5-10% less stats, it’s the same thing as putting a level 80 zerg vs a upleveled zerg, which zerg do you think will win? And don’t get me started on roaming/sniping groups fully ascended vs non ascended people, in the law of averages, we have to assume everyone is at the same skill level so the person who is better geared will win. Could a pro player beat a fully ascended “newb”? Of course, but pro players a very rare and they don’t make up the average WvWvW in our realm. Heck, my realm is full of PvE players (Desolation) so if anything Ascended gear is awesome as the sheer power of these people will carry me but I still believe these items should not be implemented in this game mode.

Solution: It’s simple, just scale Ascended gear to Exotic stat level upon entering a Borderland. I believe fair play should be encouraged and “grind to win/pay to win” (crafting) should not be encourage or allowed in PvP, this is not World of Warcraft and I believe the fair play/balanced gear model from Guild Wars 1 was perfect and it should be encouraged not scrapped. If I wanted to go “3 Shot noobs with overpowered gear” I’d go back to WoW and grind RBGs to 2200.

Regards,
Bastien

If you lose any fight, ever, and blame ascended, YOU are terrible at this game.

Right, because when a grinder who does approx 20% damage defeats you, it means you suck. Does 20=0 now?

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.

And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.

And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.

There’s literally no reason to make changes to WvW because there’s another rarity beyond exotic.

I can play that game too.

That logic is flawed.

So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.

They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!

By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.

And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.

There’s literally no reason to make changes to WvW because there’s another rarity beyond exotic.

I can play that game too.

It’s not a game. I’m making salient points; you’re spouting nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Why are you posting if you have nothing to contribute? Are you just that paranoid about losing your ascended gear advantage in WvWvW?

Bastien.1645:

That logic is flawed.

So let’s take 2 of the best spvp players in this game ever, top guilds etc.

They duel each other and the one who loses is now terrible at this game ?! That makes 0 sense, in a duel/1v1 there will always be a victor and a loser, doesn’t mean the loser is terrible just because he was outmatched!

By the way guys, there’s a similar thread in the WvWvW forums if you want to check that out as well.

I’m pretty sure that in a fight between equally skilled opponents, the one that makes a mistake first loses.

I mean, equally skilled opponents mean that one sides wins 50% of the time.

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.

And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.

There’s literally no reason to make changes to WvW because there’s another rarity beyond exotic.

I can play that game too.

It’s not a game. I’m making salient points; you’re spouting nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Why are you posting if you have nothing to contribute? Are you just that paranoid about losing your ascended gear advantage in WvWvW?

Read the thread. I don’t have ascended gear, or even full exotics.

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

Mackdose.6504:

DocHolliday.5921:

eisberg.2379:

TainoFuerte.8136:

What a lovely personal anecdote. I have many of those too. I’ve had many times where I’ve won fights with only about 10 HP remaining, sometimes even less. One of my guildies has a Thief who has stomped and escaped that stomp with a big, fat 1 displayed on his health bar. That’s even less than 5% of his total health – while wearing Soldier’s Ascended trinkets. If he had been wearing all exotics – he would have lost. Those are the fights he remembers most, the ones he brags about, and the ones he considers most important.

And if he was wearing all rares, and the other was wearing all exotic, he would have lost, and if he was wearing Masterwork, and the other was wearing Exotic he would have lost. If he was level 60 and other other was level 80 he would have lost.

So I don’t see your point.

The two points are thus.

A. All those other advantages you talk about, those are much easier to eliminate. It’s trivially easy to get to level 80 and get rare gear, and almost trivially easy to get exotic gear. Anyone can do it in a matter of days/weeks. Ascended gear is a whole other league of time investment.

B. Why add one more disparity for players to overcome in a game mode that’s supposed to be about competition? There is literally no reason to have ascended stats in WvW.

Competition between servers, not players individually. WvW isn’t competitive on the small scale, quite the opposite. It’s brutally unfair.

And that changes not a kitten thing. The point stands.

There’s literally no reason to make changes to WvW because there’s another rarity beyond exotic.

I can play that game too.

It’s not a game. I’m making salient points; you’re spouting nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Why are you posting if you have nothing to contribute? Are you just that paranoid about losing your ascended gear advantage in WvWvW?

Read the thread. I don’t have ascended gear, or even full exotics.

So why are you so desperate to defend those who do, to the point that you’ll post completely irrelevant nonsense and BS? Are you just trolling?