Guild Wars 2

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

I’m of two minds about retaliation. On the one hand, it’s a mob move (or player, if that’s the source of your complaint) that presents the opportunity for counterplay (don’t attack, or boon strip). On the other hand, on mobs at least, it pops too often because the mobs usually only have three abilities.

As to your specific complaint, using attacks with rapid damage ticks often generate more damage than other attacks. Yes, you have to have greater situational awareness when using such an attack against a player or mob that can proc retaliation. I’m not convinced that’s a bad thing.

You are probably never was at WvW then

Also, in compensation of "once per sec" they can increase duration of retaliation in 2 times

Retaliation is fine. It counters rapid damage attacks like rapid shot and flamethrower that shouldn’t just be fire and forget.

Though I could see reducing the damage and increasing the duration, but I’m not entirely sure what improvement this would bring.

Also, to make it absolutely fair, they can remake it: damage of Retaliation will return some % of initial incoming damage.
Because now it pretty stupid: you hitting someone for 100 damage and receiving back 400? And someone who hitting for 9k and more damage will receive back 400 too?

So, let it will return, i.e. 20% of damage.
You hit someone for 100? Ok, take back 20 damage
You crit someone for 10k? No offense boy, but this is your 2k back.

And in this case they can don’t do anything else: no once per sec, nor condition damage etc.

What kind of diversity are you talking about?

PvP filled with condition builds and PvE filled with power builds?

Then sure, overall ratio is 1:1 for builds. ‘_’

Tao.5096:

Oh yes.
Let’s punish power builds even more

In itself not a bad idea, seeing how much power outscales condition and how much more useful it is to actually killing targets.

There are classes which have Power Build as a strong point, Condition Build as a strong point and both power and condition to be equally strong.

But that idea is bad.
Why?
Because classes that aren’t strong with conditions will suffer the most.

It was proven many times that punishing usage of certain builds is bad.
Instead of punishing, find a solution that work fine in both ways.

If retaliation hit for 400 – and it’s too much, then reduce damage to 300.
It’s not that much of change, but it doesn’t make Retaliation Boon useless and punish mindless bots less.

Retaliation is a good counter for skills that hit multiple times in quick succession. If you give it an internal cooldown, then that benefit is completely lost. I like the idea that we have to pay attention during battles and use skills that are suitable for each situation, while weighting up the pros and cons (e.g. single hit, high damage attacks are better against retaliation than rapid, low damage hits, while for confusion, attacks with a longer channel time are superior to successive single skill uses, etc).

If you give it an internal cooldown, then people won’t even think of retaliation anymore. They’ll just spam whatever skills they like without caring about the consequences and PvP battles just become more mindless. It completely diminishes counter-play and combat awareness, and promotes thoughtless skill spamming.

Ok, not 20% let it will be 10% - it doesn’t matter, really

Mindless spam? Did you ever seen blobs fights? This is true mindless spam: place light or fire fields then blast!!!!111, spam key 1 untill previous on cooldown. Sooooo smart combos, ok.
All you need is collect Power-Vit-Tou gear - profit!

This army of PVT warriors and guardians are profitable only because they are hitting pretty rare but hard for every hit.
Multi-hit specs bringing the same damage, but with much more hits. Basically, we are doing the same work but with different ways.
Until our enemies pops Retaliation.
So, let everyone will suffer in the same way from Retaliation. Until that - this is discrimination.

Why would all other classes suffer because war and guard do that in zergs?
Why would Thief upon successful positioning in stealth get 2k spike in the face back upon successful Backstab landing?
And that applies to all other classes.

I would agree for scaling – something like:

• If damage is higher than X then Retaliation reflect 400 damage. If lower than N then scales accordingly.

Well, the point why % of damage to be given back is bad is because, all classes which do have a Spike damage, to succeed they need to prepare.
For Ele’s Fire grab, they need to put and maintain Burn condition on target.
For Thief’s Backstab, must be in stealth and behind target.
For Warrior’s Hundred Blades(dunno if you can call it a spike, for me it’s a useless skill) target must stand still in front of you.

etc etc etc

Some have smaller and so easier pre to spike damage, some have more complex ones.

And let’s not bring blob fights into this because blob fights aren’t about balance.
Main factor in blobs, is organization, Combo fields, Stability, kittenload of other boons, and number(it’s not that decisive, but it should be taken into account).

SilverWF
Retaliation is balanced as it is now, and I can promise you that there is no other MMO game that has better Reflect thing than what you have in Gw2.

TERA Online – in PvP battlegrounds, people use Mirror Charms, get naked and let Cannons hit them. They die because they’re naked i.e 0 defense, but Cannons explode as well, because they get damage reflected to them and it’s a minor % of damage.
AION Online – Sorrcerer has a skill that reflect even up to 1.4k damage per hit back, and 12k hp is normal for everyone.

What I’m trying to avoid, is to make Retaliation Boon, something that will make people to not even use their weapon skills.
High HP pool, Tanky, good heal and Retaliation spam.
Voila, let everyone hit me and explode.

As you have played other classes, you should know, that Scalling Retaliation up to damage will mostly affect other classes, and Wars and Guardian won’t really care much.
That’s because, Guards are using Staff for tag, which doesn’t do much damage anyway, and Warriors use Hammer or Greatsword, which is a Slow Attack type of weapon – they have Healing Signet + Adrenal heal, that’s 1k heal spike.

The most will suffer Ranger, with Piercing Arrows because with Rapid Fire he’ll hit up to 5 people with Retaliation and explode.
heck, I can assure you that I did test it, with 80% crit chance and 220% crit damage +2.9k Power.
I did that in WvW on zerg with retaliation.
From 18k Hp I had ~5k hp left. Scalling it up on % damage inflicted = instant downed.

Who will rule in zerg fights then?
Warriors, Guardians, Turret Engineers, Staff Necromancers.

Who will suffer the most?
Thieves, Elementalists(scepter/staff), AoE Mesmers, Longbow Rangers.

I understand that you would like to hit classes that have High survivability since they dominate in certain scenarios, but at the same time you hit squishy ones.

Why? You’ve made a good example with thief, nice. Because now Retaliation is high efficient against engineers and nearly zero effective against thieves!
This is discrimination.

Also, I’m not playing in TERA or AION, also, do not recommend it to you

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Just look at the boons of the enemy you are attacking and save your grenade barrage for when he doesnt have ret!

If the damage was lower, it would become useless. The other guy also takes damage, you know?

Aenesthesia.1697:

SilverWF.4789:

Hi there!
How about to make a limit for retaliation? Let it can hit the same target only once per second?
Or let it will be affected by Toughness and Armor
Or let it will scales up from Condition damage (since it ignoring armor, like any another conditions), but not from Power.

Because it really sucks while playing with multi-hit-per-second classes, for example Flamethrower/Grenade Engineer. You are able to literally kill yourself in 2-3 seconds only using your own offensive skills and even not being hit by enemies!

Just look at the boons of the enemy you are attacking and save your grenade barrage for when he doesnt have ret!

If the damage was lower, it would become useless. The other guy also takes damage, you know?

Read whole thread

Lets just dumb the game down even more by nerfing this semi-useful boon! In for a penny, in for a pound am i right??? This is Casual Wars 2 after all.

Forget that you can choose to stop attacking.

Forget that you can strip boons with certain skills.

Retal is an offense to my desire to “play how i want” because “play how i want” for some reason always means turning my brain off and winning every fight without trying!

Xenon.4537:

Lets just dumb the game down even more by nerfing this semi-useful boon! In for a penny, in for a pound am i right??? This is Casual Wars 2 after all.

Forget that you can choose to stop attacking.

Forget that you can strip boons with certain skills.

Retal is an offense to my desire to “play how i want” because “play how i want” for some reason always means turning my brain off and winning every fight without trying!

Sure, let’s all will play thieves and fight 1vs1 only.

SilverWF.4789:

Sure, let’s all will play thieves and fight 1vs1 only.

Playing a thief wont help you if all you do is mindlessly spam your skills.
Retaliation, and confusion, are effective against the players, not the classes.

Haishao.6851:

SilverWF.4789:

Sure, let’s all will play thieves and fight 1vs1 only.

Playing a thief wont help you if all you do is mindlessly spam your skills.
Retaliation, and confusion, are effective against the players, not the classes.

I think I need to repeat it one more time, for some special humans:
blobs have stability, speed, might, protection and retaliation 100% of time. What I need to do? Do not attack them? Or roll "successful" classes such as warriors and guardians?

There are no “successful classes” only successful players.

Haishao.6851:

There are no “successful classes” only successful players.

Are you successful player? If yes, can you spare with us, what class/spec you are playing in zerg fights?

I am playing warrior, guardian, ele and thief in wvw.
I don’t see a problem with retaliation at all, I got self heals, got blasts from waters, got positioning, and I press button to attack, it’s not on autoattack.

Never have I seen problem with retaliation in any part of a game

Retaliation damage is fine how it is. If you don’t like taking it then either remove it or don’t attack while it’s up.

I am 100% sure that, as flamethrower engi, you take more damage from enemie hits then from retaliation. Why would you even play that spec?
Also, buy sigil of restoration for zergs if you got a problem surviving. thank me later

SilverWF.4789:

Are you successful player? If yes, can you spare with us, what class/spec you are playing in zerg fights?

No. I’d get killed before I even manage to target someone with retaliation to kill myself on.

Retal is a nice check for players, I think it’s fine as it is.

Predictable, "successful classes" didn’t want to change anything. Also, most of posters didn’t read this thread before posting: make a dumb advice - profit!

So, Retaliation still must be changed.

SilverWF.4789:

Predictable, “successful classes” didn’t want to change anything. Also, most of posters didn’t read this thread before posting: make a dumb advice – profit!

So, Retaliation still must be changed.

I main a mesmer so I’m not exactly predictable. I also read the whole thread and I have yet to see a reason to make the change to retaliation as suggested. The point of it is to punish rapid attacks and auto-attacks. If anything, I feel its damage should be increased so it’s more of an immediate threat. On the other hand, I also feel that every profession should have a way to remove boons from their opponent or turn it to their advantage. For instance, if rangers had a skill that turned any boon an opponent had into 3 seconds of vulnerability, I doubt anyone would want to use a boon-stacking combo while facing such a ranger. The more skilled players may bait the skill’s use before boon-stacking. Either way, it would make for a more dynamic fight. Nerfing retaliation wouldn’t.

To answer this thread more constructively:

In my opinion Retaliation should not be modified to reduce return of damage to players at a maximum of 1 time per second. It would make the effects no longer worth playing with Retaliation. It would effectively cancel out the effects of retaliation, Even if this 1 time per seond would trigger for every player attacking the player with retaliation.

Retaliation has no real function other then discouraging players from ganging up on a single player and just zerging him to shreads with no change of returning any damage.

There are still plenty of builds which are single or dual target on weapon, while a grenade enegineer could hit 3 grenades*5 ppl= max15 ppl at once with one skill? Ofcourse depending on spread? I understand you can hit somebody 15 times in seconds (5 grenade skills and grenadier trait) . A grenade engineers grenades are only outclassed by the Meteor Shower… and MS has a 35 second CD…

Boon stripping still is very important and general practise in WvW, to remove stability, protection and retaliation… Necro’s and Mesmers are there for your zergs boon stripping. Well of Suffering, Null field and Sigil of purity would be very beneficial

SilverWF.4789:

Also, to make it absolutely fair, they can remake it: damage of Retaliation will return some % of initial incoming damage.
Because now it pretty stupid: you hitting someone for 100 damage and receiving back 400? And someone who hitting for 9k and more damage will receive back 400 too?

So, let it will return, i.e. 20% of damage.
You hit someone for 100? Ok, take back 20 damage
You crit someone for 10k? No offense boy, but this is your 2k back.

And in this case they can don’t do anything else: no once per sec, nor condition damage etc.

you’ve never been full zerk ele in WvW, if that would happen all eles would not even bother using meteorstorm anymore cause of the often 4-5k meteors on 5 players

DemonforLife.8546:

SilverWF.4789:

Also, to make it absolutely fair, they can remake it: damage of Retaliation will return some % of initial incoming damage.
Because now it pretty stupid: you hitting someone for 100 damage and receiving back 400? And someone who hitting for 9k and more damage will receive back 400 too?

So, let it will return, i.e. 20% of damage.
You hit someone for 100? Ok, take back 20 damage
You crit someone for 10k? No offense boy, but this is your 2k back.

And in this case they can don’t do anything else: no once per sec, nor condition damage etc.

you’ve never been full zerk ele in WvW, if that would happen all eles would not even bother using meteorstorm anymore cause of the often 4-5k meteors on 5 players

I see that as an anti-aoe tactic, which is a plus. If you want your eles to create craters where your enemies use to be, better get a few mesmers to Nullfield the area first.

Full zerk ele’s will do 6500-8000 dmg vs a no toughness enemy, depending on amount of might. If this would proc for 20% all 24 times on 3 targets each… would be OP, but pls look here :

These calculations do assume ALL targets have retaliation up.

As it is now at ~400 per hit:
400 retal dmg*3 targets =1200 dmg
1200*24 meteors -28800 dmg.

As it would be for 1 hit per second
400*3 targets =1200 dmg
1200*8 meteors= 9600 dmg

When applying 20% from retaliation.
(considering 7500 dmg as base: )
7500*0.2=1500 dmg (being the amount retalled)
1500*3 targets= 4500 dmg (per 3 targets hit)
4500*24 meteors = 108000 dmg vs self (for 24 meteors)

As it would be for 1 hit/ second
1500*3 targets= 4500 dmg
4500*8 meteors = 27000 dmg.

As a zerk ele has about 12000 life, this damage would let it be killed by retaliation. It would requiere a good set of null field mesmers and boon stripping necro’s to keep any aoe dealing attackers up… But when having 1 proc per second the dmg would seem okay, thi is when EVERYBODY WHO IS HIT ACTUALLY HAS RETALIATION….

If not: Calculations for 1 target with retal, same numbers:

As it is now at ~400 per hit
400*24 meteors -9600 dmg. = survivable

As it would be for 1 hit per second
400 *8 meteors= 3200 dmg =laughable

When applying 20% from retaliation.
(considering 7500 dmg as base: )
7500*0.2=1500 dmg (being the amount retalled)
1500*24 meteors = 36000 dmg vs self (for 24 meteors) Causes real problems

As it would be for 1 hit/ second
1500*8 meteors = 9000 dmg. = survivable.

Comparable caculations could be made for a rapid fire ranger with piercing arrows. and of course grenade engineers, BUT 20% is a big change compared to 400 points.

I would vote against 1 proc per second. AND I would be in favor for a BUFF to retaliation dmg and to have it scale of BOTH power and condition damage combined. This would also mean condition players can keep using this boon. It would also mean somebody playing with hybrid dmg as rampager/sinister/carrion would get a slight buff. it’s just a remark

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Boon stripping still is very important and general practise in WvW, to remove stability, protection and retaliation… Necro’s and Mesmers are there for your zergs boon stripping. Well of Suffering, Null field and Sigil of purity would be very beneficial

Good blobs has 100% uptime nearly of all buffs. And yes, Necros are not something specific for only one server – another side has it too. So stop trashtalking about strip boons: it is has 100% uptime.
In 1vs1 situation – yes, it can be visible and avoidable or strippable
When facing just dumb zerg – it’s not a problem too, coz they have no idea about AOE-buffing

Also, about your examples: they are laughtable
WHO will stay in the MS? It is static, low fire rate and pretty predictable. Noone in his mind will stay in the MS AOE field just to kill 1 Elem. Also elems has a tons of selfheal. And damage of MS not instant or semi-instant.
Rangers with Piercing arrow trait? Never seen one: they all prefer X and XIII traits. (If someone not – lol). And ranger who attacking Zerg – seriously? At what server? Wanna come to see that!

Engineers are moving AOE-machine: enemies cannot avoid his damage very well, and it’s not predictable. And not too big. Also, Engi has a very bad times to selfheal, bcs all Retaliation damage coming up in the same moment. It cannot be compared with any another class.
And Engi cannot just stop attacking when Retaliation starts coming: bcs enemies zerg will steamroll him and his allies zerg. Also when Retal will sart coming he is already will lost a half of HP, because of number of attacks and it’s timing.

So stop please this lol-examples with Elems or Rangers – they are not even close to Engineer’s troubles with retaliation.

SilverWF.4789:

Engineers are moving AOE-machine: enemies cannot avoid his damage very well, and it’s not predictable. And not too big. Also, Engi has a very bad times to selfheal, bcs all Retaliation damage coming up in the same moment. It cannot be compared with any another class.

And Engi cannot just stop attacking when Retaliation starts coming: bcs enemies zerg will steamroll him and his allies zerg. Also when Retal will sart coming he is already will lost a half of HP, because of number of attacks and it’s timing.

I doubt engineer is the only class with bad heals, and retaliation can be dangerous for anyone. It is comparable except for the fact grenades tend to trigger retaliation more often, mostly due to the fact there are more and they explode more. 1 grenade skill can hit 15 ppl and thus trigger 15 times, I understand. 1 meteorshower can trigger 72 times. It’s the same as you casting all 5 grenade skills…

And when fighting a zerg anybody will be overrun without backup, but you could choose not to hit the pain train and move to the backline. You need to adapt to changing battlefield circumstances.

My examples are comparable non-the-less, and it is understandable for much of the PVE public who will all get this force fed as well, if applied…. This as any change is for all 3 modes of gameplay.

I do play Staff elementalist and zerk in WvW: Imagine a zerg at a gate and throwing a MS on it, a FS and a lavafont. guess the outcome if they do have retal? You guessed right, even though you deny it.
And I have destroyed myself before, when I run out of luck: it’s when guards (swifness) symbols are blasted. It happens when they are smart and have some shortbow thieves,(warhorns, banners, or ele’s, and so on)

So I’d recap and suggest:

Problem:
The only difference is you get 3 procs of damage and thus retaliation on 1 throw of grenades for EACH enemy with retaliation and all other classes just 1. If you traited grenadier, that is. Without grenadier trait it’s 2 times. This also corresponds with conditions. For each grenade you hit with it triggers once.

Solution 1: (requires engineer only gamechange)
We could have the damages of the grenades combined so you have 1 grenade and only 1 damage proc for 2 or 3 times the damage? (2 or 3 depending on the grenadier trait?). In game you would end up only throwing 1 grenade which will be 2 or 3 times as powerfull instead of 2 or 3 grenades. You’d lose the benefits of the grenades proccing 3 times,(no longer 15 possible targets but 5) but it would be a small price to pay for less retaliation damage?
I’d advise not to take the full condition duration time (2 times or 3 times) as the grenades used to scatter, so I’d suggest only a % of the condition duration combined. Else I’d consider it a buff on grenades.

Solution 2: (requires another sigil or mesmer or necro support)
Equip a sigil of purity and hope it procs removing his boon on hit. Or use a mesmer or necro.
You do not lose the procs on hit, but whne they have the retal covered you will get a lot of dmg, not changing anything compared to before.

Solution 3: (requires an engineer build change)
Do not use a grenade pack? Well other weapons will proc less, and a flamethrower is comparable to rapidfire, or breath of flames (ele D/D skill?) It is the easiest change by far.

Solution 4: (game change requiring complete rethink and total revamp of guardian mechanics, destroying retaliation as boon and requiring rebalancing of retaliation for warriors, rangers, necros, mesmers, and guardians. Oh and I forgot for: Engineers )
Change the fequency of retaliation triggers to max 1 time per second. When you attack 1 person it will lower your damage, when attacking 5 people you will still get 5 procs as enemies individually run retaliation. Just once due to the cap though
Debalancing the game and rebalancing will take a while. It will destroy builds and traits for certain builds while they are not having problems at the moment.
It would be the most extreme of measures and would affect a huge part of the proffessions. In effect it would render a boon useless, It would render a lot of traits useless, several skills useless….

Conclusion: These 4 options would ALL solve your problem. Think about it? Any choice would make your problem the same as any other class. These 4 solutions would all remove the reason why you call for this change and make you as vulnerable for retaliation damage as any other.

A SFR WvW Guild CO-Leader.

What has always puzzled me about retaliation is how Arenanet managed to come up with two slightly different mechanics for doing the exact same thing (make it expensive to attack someone). By this i mean retaliation and reflect. One breaks PVE (hello boss fight speed runs on anything with a projectile spam attack) the other PVP (death by 1000 needle pricks).

I would love to see retaliation be turned into a percentage based boon, and one that goes from 1% to 99% based on the toughness (or healing power if renamed “support power”) of the caster. that would make it a interesting boon.

But then i have a general issue with boons and non-damaging conditions in general, and that is that build choices flat out don’t matter. Meaning that no matter how i build i get the same boost from a stack of might, the same percentage reduction from protection etc etc etc. This makes building for support a false option.

There are 20+ armor variants in the game, yet the handful that offer any of the “trinity” of Power, Precision or Ferocity (never mind offering 2 or all 3) trade for up to 10x that of items that are more defensively oriented.

This is because there is not a real trade off to be had. All you do when you go defensive is to kitten your DPS for no good reason. This because defensive numbers do crap all for your skills, traits, boons or conditions.

One difference though:

Retaliation returns a small amount of dmg when hit
so I attack and I get 400 dmg per hit and other gets full hit

Reflects return the attack, no hit.
so I attack and get hit myself (full hit) and other gets no dmg.

Imho, either they should tone down retaliation’s availability or tone down its effect. It can be spammed far too easily at multiple targets, and no other easily spammable boon has so great an effect. Especially since multi-hit skills are also usually AoE ones, thus suffering even more from it. Autoattacks take it even worse: they can’t do high damage – being autoattacks – but still get all the damage from retaliation.
So, while in theory they should slowly wear out groups of enemies…all that happens is that the user kills himself instead, or either avoid to attack entirely. Sure, in theory you can strip it. But in practice, putting it back is far too easy, especially in groups – and weapons like grenades and flamethrowers are balanced upon having their AoE capabilities, so you find yourself in an interesting conundrum of seeing a weapon made practically unusable in the exact occurence it should be supposed to work with.
And i don’t think that makes much sense.

When it comes to Retal and Immob, the question should be if they enhance or diminish the fun player’s having? For the most part, I’ve only heard and read complaints on them. I really cannot see how they were ever added to the game really.

Why should all game mechanics be removed? Understand that immobilizes and retaliation have uses as well. Complaints seem to be made by people on th receiving end but they do not seem to use the mechanics at all…

If you know retaliation to be so powerful, why not make use of it yourself? same for immobilizes IMHO.

Retaliation does exactly what it is suppose to do.

Retal- Punishes rapid attacks

Aegis- Stops hard hitting attacks.

runeblade.7514:

Retaliation does exactly what it is suppose to do.

Retal- Punishes rapid attacks

Aegis- Stops hard hitting attacks.

You can also add Blind to the “stops hard hitting attacks” category.

So yeah, let’s not take out the only counter to rapid attacks (along with missile reflection).

Also, when you are saying about "just stop attack" - you are probably never played grenadier in zergs.
Most of the time Engis are at 1000 and more range from main impact site, and due to grenades fly speed it can be up to 3 packs of grenades in the air simultaneously.
So, when I’ll being hit by retaliation in the 1st time - 3 more omg-hits are still on the way and ifs it wouldn’t kill me but leave me with lol-HP.

"Retaliation returns a small amount of dmg when hit "
This is bulls...
Every hit of Flamethrower hits for 200-300
Retal hits me back for 300-400
small amount, huh?

also, some genius with obvious advices about "strip boos" maybe will be interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmePzrl-jAs

Dunno who is this, just found it yesterday occasionally.
Just check how long time he have buffs (and Retaliation sure) and how long he have conditions. Also check this at his targets, when he have target selected - most of time he didn’t.
I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

It’s the only one class that retal hits incredibly hard, and ppl generally don’t like engies, so no, not gonna happen.

For all channeled skills goes the actual dmg per proc is quite low, but the amount of procs stacks the damage. This means the dmg received by retaliation is higher compared to single hit skills, due to the higher number of procs. This is your problem again, an the solution it the same as with the multi-proc in grenades, reducing the amount of procs

This could be rectified as well; by lowering the amount of procs, but on the negative side of this change would be the fact moving targets could pass the stream of fire and get no dmg at all… as they could be doing so at a moment when the channeled skil doesn’t proc.
This as the duration would stay the same so the time between the procs is extended. Else it would be a DPS change. (proccing less for the same dmg in a shorter time will be a DPS boost and would be unwanted….

It isn’t retaliation which is bad, it’s seems to be the implementation of the engineer skills with repect to all other classes’ skill implementation, which seems to cause the problem ….
And still I’d say removal, nerfing or reducing the dmg or the number of procs of retalition would be a bad thing, as it would require so much reblancing for guardians, rangers, mesmers, warriors and necro’s…. additional skill and trait rework. While these things seem to be related to Engineer skills. SO I’d again advise to rework the engineers skills to proc less.

And an addition to the previous remark about the difference between retaliation and reflects, reflects only bounce ranged projectile attacks, retaliation procs on any damage received

Retal is clearly unfair to certain skills. This is how engis feels sometime:

SilverWF.4789:

I’ve found, what there is 100% uptime of main buffs and ~70% of Retaliation. And something like 15% of conditions uptime.

Yes, well, that video you link shows… nothing?
No excessive retaliation uptime, no nothing. What exactly where we supposed to check for? He doesn’t even have any useful stacks of might most of the time.

Comparing retaliation with aegis or blind doesn’t make much sense. Aegis isn’t nearly as common as retaliation as far as application goes, and thus it can be properly stripped if needed (that is, assuming you don’t plan to just remove it with an hit).
Doing that with retaliation would be useless, assuming you are even able to do that to start with and you are lucky enough to strip that exact one. Especially since, as i said before, those multi-hit skills are supposed to be used versus multiple people and balanced toward that purpose…but that also increases the chance that there will be someone – or multiple people – that will put retaliation on the whole group.

Sure, blind is quite more common than aegis, but being a condition on the user it is also far more easily removable. Condition removals are much more common that boon removals, after all. And as aegis, it can be removed with a single hit (whereas with retaliation, you either strip it – useless move, as explained above – or you must wait until its expiration, assuming it will ever come and, depending on the class, having your efficiency drastically reduced in the meantime (grenades are all multi-hit skills, as well as two out of three offensive skills of the flamethrower; basically, your use of those kits is denied by that single boon, and you will likely have to use either the weak-by-design main weapon).
Again, no other boon has such an effect over opponents. If it is supposed to shut down weapons by itself, either make it much rare or make it stack in intensity and change the skills so that they give multiple stacks of retaliation and you lose a stack per every hit.

P.S. changing how some skill works isn’t a solution – it just sidesteps over the issue, as the only way there is as now would be making them deal less hits.

While we are getting off-track now I want to make just 1 comment on blind and aegis.

“They trigger only once, after being applied.”

Thats it.

P.S.

P.S. changing how some skill works isn’t a solution – it just sidesteps over the issue, as the only way there is as now would be making them deal less hits.

Maybe you are right, but as the OP feels the problem of to many triggers causes him to much health loss to be comparable to other proffesions, the fact remains the amount of triggers should be adressed as this is seemingly the problem. The fact that those amounts of triggers are also rewarded by applying multiple applications of conditions or maybe even boons due to the sole fact there are huge amount of triggers is the other side of the medal. If you modify one the other will suffer.

Nothing in this world is for free… I could say well just remove retal all together, and you would alleviate the problem for engineers… But doing so would create problems for guardians (= big part of proffesion mechanic), rangers, necro’s, mesmers, warrios and engineers.
The engineer would benefit and get hurt, I doubt many would care, BUT it would also remove your own counter vs grenade engineers, please take some time to think it through.

So what you’re saying is that ArenaNet should nerf the one easily-accessible obvious counter to a Grenadier build that does good damage, good condi stacking, and can do it from 1500 range?

No, I think the game works exactly as it should.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Maybe you are right, but as the OP feels the problem of to many triggers causes him to much health loss to be comparable to other proffesions, the fact remains the amount of triggers should be adressed as this is seemingly the problem. The fact that those amounts of triggers are also rewarded by applying multiple applications of conditions or maybe even boons due to the sole fact there are huge amount of triggers is the other side of the medal. If you modify one the other will suffer.

That’s already neutered by internal cooldowns, though, some of whose got added after the launch (the food ones and maybe even some sigil ones, albeit i’m not sure about the latter).
Aside from a couple traits, all those sources that can trigger have got them.
The ones without cooldowns are almost all balanced upon the lack of it (that is, with low chances of activation – shrapnel – or multiple requirements – sharpshooter, having a chance on a critical hit).

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Nothing in this world is for free… I could say well just remove retal all together, and you would alleviate the problem for engineers… But doing so would create problems for guardians (= big part of proffesion mechanic), rangers, necro’s, mesmers, warrios and engineers.
The engineer would benefit and get hurt, I doubt many would care, BUT it would also remove your own counter vs grenade engineers, please take some time to think it through.

Grenade Kit is an extreme case in regard of the game. Frankly speaking, it is even too weak as it is now. Something that is easily recognizable when it isn’t traited accordingly.

Cause said kit is balanced over a multitude of effects piled upon, unlike anything else in the game. Devs gave it a grandmaster major trait that focused completely and only upon it – and that alone is a recipe for disaster, as it alone must make it really strong to warrant the slot – and then added a grandmaster minor that synergized with it accordingly, some other traits in the same or relevant trees and the possibility of adding sigils and food.
When the game makes you focus so much on a single weapon, of course it ends up being good, maybe even disproportionaly good compared to the base one.

Thus, as i said before, they ended up having to balance it after the final result – making the base kit completely worthless in the meantime – and yet people still whine about the traited one (mostly due to a pvp mode that is based upon players standing still on an area, thus the perfect target for an area denial weapon such as grenades).

Whatever change they do, they’ll end up having to rebalance classes either way.
Albeit, this grenade kit discussion is a bit OT.