Guild Wars 2

Korsbaek.9803:

i would argue take 20% maybe more off the damage in stealth
make the reveald last 6 or 9 seconeds( when reveald where 4 sec people complained that the rotation where wrong and 3 fit very well but if 3 fits then 6 fits to just takes dubble the amount of time to get acces to stealth agien)
buff there damage outside stealth with 10-15%(with a nerf to heartseeker tho but not damage wise)

reworke the smoke + leap combo to grant blind when hitting a target instead of stealth

and make stealth grant reveald each time you exit it(also if its because time is up tho then a half reveald time could be ok)

I like this idea but lets take it one step further. Lets increase everything by 3 times!

Thief – Reveal is now 9 sec
Ele – Attunement swap is now 45 secs base
Guardian – Increase all F abilities by 3 times
Engi – Toolkits are now on a 9 sec CD
Mesmer – 9 sec internal CD on making illusions, reveal increase to 9 sec
Warrior – 30 secs burst skill
Ranger – Have to wait 3 minutes after a pet dies. 30 secs Pet swap
Necro – DS is now 30 secs

Fighting against thieves got a lot easier after i rolled one. You don’t have to see them to know where they’re going. Maybe i just suck but my thief is never an “instant-win.” I don’t even bother fighting guardians now, haha.

The only suggestion i can offer is to display dmg numbers when you hit a stealthed thief. It’s not hard to hit a thief with AoE, but if i’m chasing where i think the thief is and spamming 1 it just feels like i’m swinging at the air. If i connect it would be nice to see damage numbers.

I haven’t check my combat log, but surely that would indicate when you damage a stealthed thief, right?

Banono.4597:

ezd.6359:

Another anti thief QQ thread? We have many threads about stealth already.

Exactly This^

@OP, how would you balance thieves if you gut their main mechanic?

All I hear from these threads is “Nerf stealth!” but what about people who play thieves? Should we just be the squishy red headed step children of the game?

Well, yes… I’d be happy if thieves replaced my ranger in that position…. though I do agree, stealth needs to be an escape/evade mechanism with a decent cooldown, but thieves would need more raw damage or more/better (visible) evades (not blinds as these are a moot point in half the game) to make up for it… let’s face it, without abusing stealth so horribly bad as it is now, thief has nothing… less raw damage than engi’s and mes, and survivability as thin as an ele, or worse. So while I do want stealth nerfed, the thief seriously needs something to replace it cause it’s all they got right now

The thing that people need to understand that we thieves got no other options than stealth, and stealth in this game if you tone it down just slightly we’l be left with nothing as its either a lot of stealth or nothing just just how anet designed the class. We got no other means of playin if you increased our HP to tier 2 and same about our healing, and then in addition redesigned all our stealth sklls to be viable in other ways instead give us offhand sword and then we can talk about nerfing stealth.

A good way to tone down our stealth without making it break us is that T targeting such that your opponent is just visibile (less than for the thief him self does) And no nametag. That could work and give people means of countering us. Maybe give us somthing like heal and condi removal on dodge like a acrobatics grandmaster trait or somthing like that, that would promote evade thief a lot to create a lot of build diversity, or buff sigil of malice? Perhaps give us protection even some aoe pull like an aoe 500 radius scorpion wire elite or somthing like that. That would increase our ability to teamplay/tank which fills the two roles we lack in and tones down our Skirmisher/dps ablity.

Fortus.6175:

This isnt about any specific class, just stealth in general and those few classes that have it.

Plain and simple. Having stealth should be the “reward”. What do I mean by this?

Well, usually, in most balanced games, having stealth is in and for itself pretty darn good. But here not only do you not put handicaps and ways to counter it, but encourage the unlimited use of it, and if you think that wasnt enough, give certain class for free one of the highest damage spell that has absolutely no risk and cant be countered not even with blocks (which doesnt reveal said class) but also give them boons while in stealth.

In most games having stealth is already awesome, to countrest this you have handicaps like :

1. Slow movement speed
2. Means to reveal them
3. CC reveals them (roots do not count as CC)
4. Damage Reveals them
5. Certain damage threshold reveals them
6. Chance to see them
7. Damage penalty
8. Cant heal or put boons for a bit
9. Cant reset fights at will every 4 seconds, usually have to burn a PRETTY LENGHTY cooldown to get out of combat when things go awry.
10. Take 100% more or even more damage while stealthed.

But here? Spam it, make it annoying, uncounterable, give them boons, free uncounterable damage spells, all that while having all the benefices that come from stealth.

I believe Stealth should be good enough, no need to give it so many good things on top of that while not having ANY way of dealing with it other than swinging your sword in the air (if you have a ranged weapon you are screwed) and wasting all CDs in the hope that something, just something will connect, and even if it does, you wont know, and it will for sure not be 8k damage, which would only be fair considering certain classes free access to it every 4 seconds.

1) ok
2) already in game
3) how can you reveal real target if you dont see him?
4) stupidity check needed
5) ok
6) this remove all mechanic about stealth
7) dmg bonus maybe, cause i can see your vitals, you cant see me
8) r.i.p. logic, its same as normal heal or reamove all healing in invul. etc.
9) play a bit more to counter this point
10) this made me laugh 15mins by now, how can you dmg someone whos invisible to you and hopw for more dmg? maybe normal dmg is more than enough ( i see you then i can counter you)

Trego.6182:

1) ok
2) already in game
3) how can you reveal real target if you dont see him?
4) stupidity check needed
5) ok
6) this remove all mechanic about stealth
7) dmg bonus maybe, cause i can see your vitals, you cant see me
8) r.i.p. logic, its same as normal heal or reamove all healing in invul. etc.
9) play a bit more to counter this point
10) this made me laugh 15mins by now, how can you dmg someone whos invisible to you and hopw for more dmg? maybe normal dmg is more than enough ( i see you then i can counter you)

Yep, someone else does need a stupidity check too….. Ever heard of AoE CC? AoE Damage? Some classes have untargetted CC, if said class “knew” the exact location of said thief and skillflly casted the CC skill (think of Mesmer GS #5, small cone, small radius, long CD, a waste to use wrongly) and that skill conected, the player should be rewarded. Perhaps there should be a “grace period” of maybe 1 second in which the thief will not get affected by this. Same for damage; 10%-20% maximun health taken as damage reveals them after the “grace period”. Use your common sense, man.

Fortus.6175:

Trego.6182:

1) ok
2) already in game
3) how can you reveal real target if you dont see him?
4) stupidity check needed
5) ok
6) this remove all mechanic about stealth
7) dmg bonus maybe, cause i can see your vitals, you cant see me
8) r.i.p. logic, its same as normal heal or reamove all healing in invul. etc.
9) play a bit more to counter this point
10) this made me laugh 15mins by now, how can you dmg someone whos invisible to you and hopw for more dmg? maybe normal dmg is more than enough ( i see you then i can counter you)

Yep, someone else does need a stupidity check too….. Ever heard of AoE CC? AoE Damage? Some classes have untargetted CC, if said class “knew” the exact location of said thief and skillflly casted the CC skill (think of Mesmer GS #5, small cone, small radius, long CD, a waste to use wrongly) and that skill conected, the player should be rewarded. Perhaps there should be a “grace period” of maybe 1 second in which the thief will not get affected by this. Same for damage; 10%-20% maximun health taken as damage reveals them after the “grace period”. Use your common sense, man.

do you know if attacks against stealth players show up as hits in the combat log?

Scrambles.2604:

do you know if attacks against stealth players show up as hits in the combat log?

Do you know if elementalists have stealth?

Lets hope that you can answer this question correctly or it might be used agaisnt you to throw away any argument away on this basis(as good as it might be).

Currently Im at work so I wont be able to check that ingame, but even if it showed it on the chat, I will not resort to cheap cheats for “feedback” when I use the chat. Not only will I not have the combat log open for a fight, but in a fight of 3-4 people, damage is going both ways, and it is really hard to keep track of those things, specially since skills that hit multiple times display multiples feedbacks, not counting different damage sources on top of your own damage. I wont scroll 3 pages worth of chat to see if my random AoE hit the thief or not, so thats a silly counterargument of yours.

Next?

Fortus.6175:

Scrambles.2604:

do you know if attacks against stealth players show up as hits in the combat log?

Do you know if elementalists have stealth?

Lets hope that you can answer this question correctly or it might be used agaisnt you to throw away any argument away on his basis(as good as it might be).

Currently Im at work so I wont be able to check that ingame, but even if it showed it on the chat, I will not resort to cheap cheats for “feedback” when I use the chat. Not only will I not have the combat log open for a fight, but in a fight of 3-4 people, damage is going both ways, and it is really hard to keep track of those things, specially since skills that hit multiple times display multiples feedbacks, not counting different damage sources on top of your own damage. I wont scroll 3 pages worth of chat to see if my random AoE hit the thief or not, so thats a silly counterargument of yours.

Next?

Eles can stealth for a few seconds underwater, not sure why that’s relevant.

I was just wondering, i cant test myself either. Sense you’re so adamant about stealth changes i assumed you were also educated in all that is stealth as well. Looks like i made an kitten outa u and me, lol.

Scrambles.2604:

Fortus.6175:

Scrambles.2604:

do you know if attacks against stealth players show up as hits in the combat log?

Do you know if elementalists have stealth?

Lets hope that you can answer this question correctly or it might be used agaisnt you to throw away any argument away on his basis(as good as it might be).

Currently Im at work so I wont be able to check that ingame, but even if it showed it on the chat, I will not resort to cheap cheats for “feedback” when I use the chat. Not only will I not have the combat log open for a fight, but in a fight of 3-4 people, damage is going both ways, and it is really hard to keep track of those things, specially since skills that hit multiple times display multiples feedbacks, not counting different damage sources on top of your own damage. I wont scroll 3 pages worth of chat to see if my random AoE hit the thief or not, so thats a silly counterargument of yours.

Next?

Eles can stealth for a few seconds underwater, not sure why that’s relevant.

I was just wondering, i cant test myself either. Sense you’re so adamant about stealth changes i assumed you were also educated in all that is stealth as well. Looks like i made an kitten outa u and me, lol.

LMAO! My apologies man, Im sorry, I guess im really edgy since ever turn I make I see someone attacking me in a rude manner even though my thread (imHo) is quite constructive.

And yes, you did answer correct, though is realy hard to do without a target and kinda buggy, eles do have stealth

I will test it when I get home and let you know!

Nerfing stealth should be much more subtle.

The only thing I think would be appropriate is having some sort of feedback if you do hit them, such as a noise and just a flicker of an impact animation on them. They are stealthed, your own spells are not.

Fortus.6175:

Klawlyt.6507:

First lemme preface by saying I didn’t feel like reading a whole ’nother “nerf stealth” thread.

I main a thief (though I usually run d/p, rather than the super trolly d/d, and I usually don’t run glass cannon, but I’ve played with it plenty), and I gotta say, thieves have to work. Even the d/d backstab spammers. d/d glass cannons play balancing on a thread that can easily be broken, and the theives that take you down in the blink of an eye are the well practiced. Don’t believe me? Roll a glass canon backstab thief for yourself. If you’re right, and they’re grossly OP, then you shouldn’t really have to try and you’ll steamroll everyone.

Of course, if you do actually roll a theif and learn how they play, you’ll be amazed how much you learn about them, and how much easier it is to take them on. Seriously, give it a shot.

Now, on other other hand, I rolled up a necro a couple weeks ago, and built a MM bunker. That’s hardly playing. All you have to do is stand inside the circle and keep throwing circles of your own on the ground. Remember to switch to death shroud if your heal is still on cool down. Repeat. I haven’t played a guardian, but I wonder if bunkering them feels as passive as necros. Do I hate necros for being OP? No, but now I know if the fight’s not going my way in the first few seconds, they’ve papered my rock, and I depart for another point. It’s called strategy.

ok, think about this, would you consider it fair to have people read your statement when you didnt even bother to read the Op and realize this wasnt a “nerf thief” complain thread? Dont you think that, while the OP didnt mention Thieves as OP and vaguely relate the threat to them, many other people are having a really tough time with thieves, regardless of whether they have played them themselves or not?

I didnt bother to read your reply either, a person who doesnt bother to read a careful and civilized thread that provides solutions to a blatant problem does not deserve my attention, because just like you assumed all I said was “WAHH WAHH S THIEF TOUCHED ME IN PLACES” Im gonna assume you said “WAAAHHH WAHHH THIEF IS UP, L2P, SPAM AoE, NOOB, MY CLASS IS TOTALLY FINE”

Thieves need some risks involved in playing them, a well played thief should NEVER die, that is not ok. High damage spells need one or the other of these; high casting time, highly telegraphed, easily interruptable, visually easy to recognize OR long CD, easily blockable/dodgeable, involving a risk; if it fails then it was due to enemy skill, if it lands then it was your skill to know when to do it. backstab has none of this, in fact, it has the best of both worlds since it cant be blocked, dodged, seen, has 4 secs CD, can kill you in one sweep, all without you been to do jack about it, or even see it coming most of the time.

^ its pretty much what i agree with

i ran a lvl 20 thief in wvw and only died 3 times to thiefs no less lol
its not just backstab its the combination of all this cooldownless mechanics
d/p for example
F1 = long range shadow step- has a cooldown amazingly

1. 2 = spammable gap closer or opener + combo finisher
2. 3 = cooldownless shadowstep+ blind
3. 5 = cooldownless AoE blind+ smoke field
4. = massive damage on stealth+massive damage via auto attack mainly because the attack rate is at 1/4 of a second as another class it would be like hitting for 8-10k damage with auto attacks

then stealth
increases speed
regens
removes conditions
increases initiative gain
grants initiative when entering stealth
blinds
does not get removed when a skill is blocked
pretty much only has 2 counter mechanics stealth disruptor trap and Rangers’s Sic em

but mainly im just tired of the excuse they all repeat

obviously player needs to l2p
have lowest armor- no kidding you’re all full zerkers
lowest hp-again full serker/dps traits

try an engineer wich has medium armor and see if you can dish out same damage as thief without dying half as often

I play as a thief that emphasizes the use of stealth skills. The class that can take the most advantage of stealth (the thief) already has several factors that balance out its many advantages. The thief is actually pretty vulnerable without stealth (and dodging).

The only thing that’s OP with stealth is the combo skillset to perma-stealth: which the devs themselves admitted was going to change. Otherwise, I say leave stealth just the way it is.

Rezzet.3614:

try an engineer wich has medium armor and see if you can dish out same damage as thief without dying half as often

^Basically this, but [insert any non-warrior class] and you have a correct argument!

Thief players only say their survival is bad because they are squishy and AoE hurt them, but I would drop my 90 seconds cantrip CD any day for near-invincibility invisibility on rotation that has no downtime if done correctly. A yep, eles and thieves have the same health pool.

I used to hate fighting thieves with my mesmer – they were the only class that gave me problems.

So what did I do? I rolled a thief, learned its strengths and weaknesses, and incorporated that knowledge into my play style. Now I can kill thieves.

If a thief stealths and runs off I usually don’t bother following after them. I know by then that they’re too far to chase. But they don’t ‘rofl-STOMP’ anymore. A thief’s ability to flee from a fight they can’t win is one of their greatest advantages. They need that, because fighting as a thief can very quickly shift in and out of their favor. Most classes (I’m assuming here) can gauge if they’re winning or losing. For thieves, it’s pretty haphazard.

Arikyali.5804:

I used to hate fighting thieves with my mesmer – they were the only class that gave me problems.

So what did I do? I rolled a thief, learned its strengths and weaknesses, and incorporated that knowledge into my play style. Now I can kill thieves.

If a thief stealths and runs off I usually don’t bother following after them. I know by then that they’re too far to chase. But they don’t ‘rofl-STOMP’ anymore. A thief’s ability to flee from a fight they can’t win is one of their greatest advantages. They need that, because fighting as a thief can very quickly shift in and out of their favor. Most classes (I’m assuming here) can gauge if they’re winning or losing. For thieves, it’s pretty haphazard.

true for any class that specs high dps glass cannon. most thieves choose that spec then wonder why they can’t survive. other classes have it far worse. thieves aren’t especially vulnerable, sorry.

Sanduskel.1850:

Arikyali.5804:

I used to hate fighting thieves with my mesmer – they were the only class that gave me problems.

So what did I do? I rolled a thief, learned its strengths and weaknesses, and incorporated that knowledge into my play style. Now I can kill thieves.

If a thief stealths and runs off I usually don’t bother following after them. I know by then that they’re too far to chase. But they don’t ‘rofl-STOMP’ anymore. A thief’s ability to flee from a fight they can’t win is one of their greatest advantages. They need that, because fighting as a thief can very quickly shift in and out of their favor. Most classes (I’m assuming here) can gauge if they’re winning or losing. For thieves, it’s pretty haphazard.

true for any class that specs high dps glass cannon. most thieves choose that spec then wonder why they can’t survive. other classes have it far worse. thieves aren’t especially vulnerable, sorry.

Its pointless, man. No matter how many times you tell them, they will somehow believe the are the most vulnerable class in the game, the red-headed child of ANet, all this while thieves were all over the place in the last competitions. What did eles have to show? A big zero at MLG and nearly none at the one after that.

I can bet you this guy has not played zerker ele, I guarantee you that if he wasnt lying about being a mesmer who “rolled temporarily” a thief (and not the way around) that the moment he rolls zerker ele and take it anywhere that isnt behind a zerg in WvW with staff, he will know the true definition of critter vulnerability

If anything needs a nerf it’s mesmer escape utils.

Sanduskel.1850:

true for any class that specs high dps glass cannon. most thieves choose that spec then wonder why they can’t survive. other classes have it far worse. thieves aren’t especially vulnerable, sorry.

I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me. :/

But I’d still say that a thief is vulnerable even without the glass cannon build. My thief is mostly dire/sentinel in stats, so she has good defense for a thief. But in an even fight, my berzerker mesmer still has better overall survivability. (Yes, there’s still the factors that I’m better as mesmer than thief, and my mesmer has more exotic gear too). But even a thief that doesn’t focus on damage can still be vulnerable. I admit I’m not a great thief, but I’d like to think I’m okay. :P

I really wish people would stop piling all this hate on stealth. I’m betting most of it is coming from ‘perma-stealth’ thieves, which the devs already said they wanted to change.

Arikyali.5804:

Sanduskel.1850:

true for any class that specs high dps glass cannon. most thieves choose that spec then wonder why they can’t survive. other classes have it far worse. thieves aren’t especially vulnerable, sorry.

I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me. :/

But I’d still say that a thief is vulnerable even without the glass cannon build. My thief is mostly dire/sentinel in stats, so she has good defense for a thief. But in an even fight, my berzerker mesmer still has better overall survivability. (Yes, there’s still the factors that I’m better as mesmer than thief, and my mesmer has more exotic gear too). But even a thief that doesn’t focus on damage can still be vulnerable. I admit I’m not a great thief, but I’d like to think I’m okay. :P

I really wish people would stop piling all this hate on stealth. I’m betting most of it is coming from ‘perma-stealth’ thieves, which the devs already said they wanted to change.

my biggest gripe with stealth isnt so much itself, but rather all the bad things that come with it.

It is okay to use it smartly (example, mesmers, long CD, casting time, but can really save your butt if used right, but if you use it in the middle of the fight and attack right after that, you wasted it). It is okay to scape by the teeth everynow and then, but at the expense of high CD. It is NOT okay to use stealth everytime it is available to escape all the fights.

The other one is backstab. I have seen videos of a thief without might stacks, only food and self buffs hit 12-14k, Im not even kidding you, I wish I was, either way, he was hitting 10-12k nomally. You know what the base health of guardians and eles is? 10k, literally a one shot, every 4 seconds, cannot be blocked, doesnt have a telegraphed animation, thieves can catch up to you easily with teleport/HS/more teleports/swiftness on stealth, so you cant see it, cant outrun it, cant protect agaisnt it, cant time it, basically you are naked in the dark, simply waiting to be one shot.

Yeah, as a guardian I have an easier time since I can just GS#5 and that usually scares them when followed by #4 and #3, but even those skills have bigger CD than stealth, so if I dont kill them by then (and god forbids they are smart and instead of being close the stay away until some CC and AoEs are used) then it is a guaranteed death.

There is no counterplay there, there is no fun on the receiving end, there is no fun of the giving end because at the point in which you become good, you realize how easy it is. Im lazy to find it now, but there is this good thief player playing S/D, going agaisnt good players, 3v1, and winning…… that tells worlds about the class…..

Fortus.6175:

Its pointless, man. No matter how many times you tell them, they will somehow believe the are the most vulnerable class in the game, the red-headed child of ANet, all this while thieves were all over the place in the last competitions. What did eles have to show? A big zero at MLG and nearly none at the one after that.

I can bet you this guy has not played zerker ele, I guarantee you that if he wasnt lying about being a mesmer who “rolled temporarily” a thief (and not the way around) that the moment he rolls zerker ele and take it anywhere that isnt behind a zerg in WvW with staff, he will know the true definition of critter vulnerability

Whoa now, ‘most vulnerable?’ HAH….no. A good thief can leap into the middle of a zerg and not get downed. When did I ever say they were the ‘most vulnerable’ class in the game? Do I need to elaborate my points more clearly? What I’ve been trying to say is thieves need stealth as it is right now, unchanged, because it’s a vital part of their defense mechanism. Without stealth, THEN a thief is vulnerable. Just like any other class without their defensive skills.

And of course I’ve never played a zerker ele outside of a zergforce. Why would I want to play a class that’ll get ripped to shreds in seconds? That’s silly.

and kindly please don’t start questioning the validity of my posts. My mesmer is my main. I do play a zerker mesmer. My second lvl 80 is a thief. And it is not a ‘temporary roll’ because I’m quite intent on making a thief that can kick butt.

My apologies, man, wasnt trying to be rude of anything, Im just stating that stealth is currently wacko. And yes, and actually do agree with you about thieves survival. In fact, I wouldnt take more than 1 in sPvP or more than a couple for WvW since they bring little to nothing in both PvP and in dungeons (except maybe Arah or the old F/U TA path). I actually want them to have something going on for them that didnt involve been obnoxious, and backstab NEEDS to go away as it currently stands.

Im not saying thieves are OP, all I saying is that they got 2 OP mechanics that are holding them back from getting the help they need in other areas. (think of it as a toxic virus, not very useful outside killing people in a war, but if tweaked, if you remove the ‘toxic’ part and give it another DNA configuration, you can now use that same virus for good purposes, like genetic surgery to cure people with leukemia or other genetic problems. But we need to first remove the toxic part!!!)

Arikyali.5804:

Sanduskel.1850:

true for any class that specs high dps glass cannon. most thieves choose that spec then wonder why they can’t survive. other classes have it far worse. thieves aren’t especially vulnerable, sorry.

I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or disagreeing with me. :/

But I’d still say that a thief is vulnerable even without the glass cannon build. My thief is mostly dire/sentinel in stats, so she has good defense for a thief. But in an even fight, my berzerker mesmer still has better overall survivability. (Yes, there’s still the factors that I’m better as mesmer than thief, and my mesmer has more exotic gear too). But even a thief that doesn’t focus on damage can still be vulnerable. I admit I’m not a great thief, but I’d like to think I’m okay. :P

I really wish people would stop piling all this hate on stealth. I’m betting most of it is coming from ‘perma-stealth’ thieves, which the devs already said they wanted to change.

wrong. thieves are vulnerable only when they choose to be. they are no worse off than most other classes. it’s just the perma scrub glass build that maks them so.

/sigh. Can people please stop interpreting my posts as saying “Thieves are helpless without stealth?” I never said that!! The OVERALL SURVIVABILITY meant I can stand out there and dish out more damage, longer and more effectively, with my zerker mesmer, than my defensive thief. With my thief I’m stealthing, leaping, evading, pulling back, attacking, and dodging. With my mesmer I’m attacking while piling on disabling skills, and using the occasional dodge/block.

What do I have to do, write a wall of text that no one would bother reading anyway?

Fortus.6175:

There is no counterplay there, there is no fun on the receiving end, there is no fun of the giving end because at the point in which you become good, you realize how easy it is. Im lazy to find it now, but there is this good thief player playing S/D, going agaisnt good players, 3v1, and winning…… that tells worlds about the class…..

If I recall correctly, they are going to balance S/D, including the backstab. I just wish they didn’t also adjust S/P as well…I just recently went back to trying out the sword, and actually liking it, heh.

Would you be as kind as to redirect me to where they mentioned the backstab cahnges? Im REALLY looking forward to see that skill nerfed into balance, so you bette rnot be lying to me! I will be majorly disappointed!

Roll an eng/mes/guard and you won’t care about thieves. If people in this thread were complaining more about my mes stealthing and coming out with regen+prot+block while my phants wreck people when she’s stealthed (not causing revealed), I would agree it’s overpowered. A thief though… nah.

As far as people going oh but I can 1vX bla bla bla… you can do that on any class Vs. baddies, but Vs. equally skilled players every class will lose in a 1v2.

Fortus.6175:

Would you be as kind as to redirect me to where they mentioned the backstab cahnges? Im REALLY looking forward to see that skill nerfed into balance, so you bette rnot be lying to me! I will be majorly disappointed!

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/arenanet-tracker/topic/278436-dec-10th-thief-changes/

Hm..seems I was mistaken. They’re working flanking strike, not backstab, sorry.

Edit: Hang on, which one are you referring to? Flanking strike is the S/D skill. Backstab is the dagger chain skill.

Aberrant.6749:

Roll an eng/mes/guard and you won’t care about thieves. If people in this thread were complaining more about my mes stealthing and coming out with regen+prot+block while my phants wreck people when she’s stealthed (not causing revealed), I would agree it’s overpowered. A thief though… nah.

You have propably never seen the most extreme cases of stealth exploiting.
An example:
In one of the WvW matches lately i have run into a thief group that camped a supply camp (the northern borderland one. Not on their borderland, of course). There were 4 or 5 of them, in perma invis. When someone appeared in the camp, they ganked him with coordinated spikes. When a zerg appeared, they stayed away, or picked up people on the sides and just disappeared back again. When there was noone around, they flipped camp. They were impossible to chase away, even with stealth traps (since they were always close enough to see them placed) short of calling a main blob to just cover everything in aoes (which caused them to change location to a different camp for a while before just coming back).

In fact, i have seen a lot of multi-thief perma invis groups running around in WvW lately. The combo is so overpowered it is really sick. Basically it can be countered only by another perma-invis thief group surprise-outganking them.

In short, either the stealth mechanics need serious overhaul/nerf, or more counterplay options (for all classes) need to be introduced.

stealth itself doesn’t need a nerf, it functions as intended. Some people just choose to abuse it which is unfortunate.

Couldn’t there be some kinda meter that adds up per second of stealth and after a certain period of time causes reveal for either the same amount of time stealth was up or a % of it.

So arbitrary numbers,
5sec of stealth in 10sec window = 0sec of reveal
7sec of stealth in 10sec window = 5sec of reveal
10sec of stealth in 10sec window = 7sec of reveal

Ive seen talk of CC meters like is swtor that after soo much CC you become immune to it for a little bit. Maybe to prevent stealth spamming they should have a similar meter.

Its unfortunate to have to gate another mechanic because some abuse it.

TBH, I would prefer to have more reveal skills that promote countering opponent wrather then limiting opponents abilities.

It’s true that stealth can’t be countered, and thief is ironically one of the safest class in the game. It’s the only class that even low skill players can single handedly dive into a mob, kill some squishes without them being able to fight back, and retreat easily and safely.

If a thief wants to disappear, there is no hope of finding him no matter how big your blob is. In 1 v 1, thief is technically invincible if played correctly, low health = stealth = rolf.

Dragonax.6487:

*It’s the only class that even low skill players can single handedly dive into a mob, kill some squishes without them being able to fight back, and retreat easily and safely. *

If a thief wants to disappear, there is no hope of finding him no matter how big your blob is. In 1 v 1, thief is technically invincible if played correctly, low health = stealth = rolf.

That is so very not true. A low skilled thief would get destroyed inside a zerg. Picking off the sides of the zerg, maybe, but right in the middle? Your timing has to be pretty decent to pull that off.

Anyone, regardless of class, can kill ‘squishies’. Or people who are not as well equipped as others. And lag would also be a factor in blob fights. People are easy pickings if they’re lagging.

Thieves can dish out serious damage, but they have the highest learning curve as well. They’re not ‘insta-win’. I just cannot except any argument saying ‘thieves are so OP regardless’ when I can think back on killing a thief while I was downed. (I was solo roaming when he jumped me, did the whole ‘rofl-stealth’ deal, got me downed, but with his health drastically low, I killed him with my own downed skills).

Yeah there are some pretty bad thieves out there. The key to beating most of them is not turning your back on them so they can spam 2 and backstab into your back. When they go to stealth at low HP I use pin down + arcing arrow ;-)

Unfortunately this drives them further into stealth spamming and eventually if you do something enough times you get better at it. That’s when it starts to become obvious there is a slight issue with stealth spam. It doesnt help when most ranged attacks shoot straight into the ground without a target so you cant even blind guess. Attacking with cleaving melee works but only if you immobilized them first before they went into stealth.

It doesn’t really matter tbh. The more I play my warrior roaming the easier it is becoming to deal with thieves. You want frustrating? Duel a good engineer.

Fortus.6175:

ezd.6359:

Another anti thief QQ thread? We have many threads about stealth already.

Fortus.6175:

This isnt about any specific class, just stealth in general and those few classes that have it.

there, answered your question.

BULLKITTEN. You can’t claim this isn’t a Thief-Hate thread when OP is specifically referring to the repeated ability to get into stealth. That is a Thief mechanic. The other “stealth-able” classes have no ability to spam it.

Talking about Stealth like its invulnerability is ridiculous. Thieves die in just a few hits, if you’re not a scrub, then swing your weapon around and you’re mostly guaranteed to take out half their life in the few seconds they aren’t visible.

I play a thief, and played correctly, yes, stealth equates to invulnerability. Sorry.

Sanduskel.1850:

I play a thief, and played correctly, yes, stealth equates to invulnerability. Sorry.

Shh! Go back and hide in your shadow. Now that you said that, they’re just gonna nerf us all….

Sanduskel.1850:

I play a thief, and played correctly, yes, stealth equates to invulnerability. Sorry.

and thats what needs to change, as well as backstab

If we are just talking about stealth, then I have no problems stealth in this game is rather short for all non-thief class and is basically a move to quickly confuse your enemies.

If you are talking about how to reveal stealth, and believe that simply damaging someone while in stealth should reveal them. Then I ask that you look at the other game and see which ones have as much ground targeted AoEs, or non-ground target AoE abilities including Auto attacks that you can simply just spam. If a person can get revealed simply by being hit in GW2 you might as well remove stealth all together cause it’s not a useless mechanic.

Compound that issue with the thief, people keep comparing GW2 thief with all the other thief. But fail to compare the combat mechanics of the other games and any other abilities and utilities the other thieves have access to. Thieves in other game starts the fight perma invis, out of stealth they still can lock you down easily with pletura of skills, stop. beforey ou say GW2 thieves have that option too, they do, but no where near as much, and have to sacrafice much for it. Then when their combo is done and they are out of abilties, oh yeah, their special long CD restealth, usually after this opening they kill you or run away.

The classes that have stealth are incredibly weak compared to others.

Thieves and mesmers only have 2 viable set-ups: pure zerk and pure condi. Both mean the thief/mesmer is low on vitality and toughness, and really easy to kill.

Just to give an example: my zerk thief does ~7k (4-5k on a heavy armour target) with backstab and there’s a delay on backstab because of the Revealed state. On top he only has 13k health. A zerk warrior has easily 20k+ health and does 2-4k per second with axes and can hit easily 7-8k with whirlwind attack on a low armour target.
To top that it also has the best mobility in the whole game: leaps and movement skills both on weapons and utilities, perma swiftness. And lastly it has damage negators on shield and endure pain. Seriously, if one class needs nerf it’s warrior.

Even as a Thief I have to admit that ANet added the worst stealth mechanic of any MMO to date.

It’s frustrating for players to fight against, it’s frickle and annoying at times for the users and it’s far too beneficial in just about every way when specced into Shadow Arts.

Instead of being the Thief’s defensive fallback, it’s the Thief’s universal ability for everything from setting up damage over condition cleansing to blinding and healing.

Stealth is this game is probably the biggest class design blunder.

In sPvP, as a guardian if I see a thief coming towards me I let out a sigh of relief as I know it will be an easy kill. Worst case scenario he runs away. Whatever. Now, two thieves on me at the same time, that’s a problem.

In WvW, on my Guardian again, Thieves generally equate to pop out of stealth, attack, attack, see they aren’t winning, stealth, run away. They really just end up wasting their time and mine. Once I see them stealth and run, I Aegis up and start running in the opposite direction. I just end the fight there because honestly what is even the point. Like someone else posted, they do great damage, but if things go south for them they can stealth and run. That is strategy #1 for most thieves: if start to lose, stealth and run, heal up, then attack again. If you know this is what they will do, just run away from them when they run from you. Don’t just stay in the area looking for them, that’s just asking for them to take advantage. Thieves are opportunists (not the players, but the class design). They are meant to take advantage of openings. Don’t give them that opening.

If you are having an awesome fight and the Thief is almost dead and he stealths so he can turn tail and run, consider that a forfeit, pat yourself on the back, and leave the area. You don’t have to fall for their tricks. We all know how most of them play at this point. They want to be able to reset the fight and start over basically, I don’t have time for that. Don’t give them the satisfaction of you practically winning, them narrowly escaping, and them coming back and winning after its all said and done. They live for that satisfaction and I refuse to give it to them.

Draknar.5748:

They are meant to take advantage of openings. Don’t give them that opening.

True story, but thieves only have that opening. If they waste their burst… either run as fast as they can OR surprise the enemy and use tactics. I tend to like the second approach. It’s a lot of fun to teleport around, confusing people using the various shadowsteps and then striking hard and fast. I never run in fights myself (might explain why I die often? :P, -), but I know a lot of thieves do it.

Apart from that, please don’t say I’m defending thieves, I play 6 other classes (4 others currently at level 80, multiple exotic gears). And if you start making penalties on stealth for thieves… the whole class will become useless.

Sirendor.1394:

if you start making penalties on stealth for thieves… the whole class will become useless.

I keep hearing this but im sure all most of the people saying this havent read most if not all of the OP;

Thieves need other ways of defense that doesnt involve being annoying, and imho they already are ok without constant stealth since they have a LOT of teleports and evades, but if needed, increase them. The class is supposed to be an acrobat, not a jehovas witness at 9am on a Sunday at your door

Draknar.5748:

They are meant to take advantage of openings. Don’t give them that opening.

It may work for random 1v1 meetings between locations, but if it happens at the place you need to defend (supply camp, ruins, yak escort), then you may not have that option, as running away is equal to a lost fight.

Astralporing.1957:

Draknar.5748:

They are meant to take advantage of openings. Don’t give them that opening.

It may work for random 1v1 meetings between locations, but if it happens at the place you need to defend (supply camp, ruins, yak escort), then you may not have that option, as running away is equal to a lost fight.

This is true and definitely gives thieves the advantage in the long run if you are defending something and can’t leave, but I’m 100% OK with that. They need to have some kind of advantage. Being able to retreat well doesn’t really cut it as a major class tactic. It drags out the fight and is just annoying for the other person more than anything. Their stealthy retreat allows them to pick at a solo defender until they die without a major threat of death (unless someone else shows up). I like that they have this advantage because lord knows I have plenty advantages.

In PvP as a Guardian I can hold down a point by myself against multiple enemies for quite a long time: longer than pretty much any class. I’m not going to win the fight but I can keep the point contested long enough for the rest of my team to capture theirs and come back to help defend. Necros are good at this too. Most classes are good at something, I don’t think it’s fair to take away or reduce the effectiveness of the Thief’s limited advantage. They really do need it.

Fortus.6175:

Sirendor.1394:

if you start making penalties on stealth for thieves… the whole class will become useless.

I keep hearing this but im sure all most of the people saying this havent read most if not all of the OP;

Thieves need other ways of defense that doesnt involve being annoying, and imho they already are ok without constant stealth since they have a LOT of teleports and evades, but if needed, increase them. The class is supposed to be an acrobat, not a jehovas witness at 9am on a Sunday at your door

That would make them into something equal to ranger…

Sirendor.1394:

The classes that have stealth are incredibly weak compared to others.

Thieves and mesmers only have 2 viable set-ups: pure zerk and pure condi. Both mean the thief/mesmer is low on vitality and toughness, and really easy to kill.

Just to give an example: my zerk thief does ~7k (4-5k on a heavy armour target) with backstab and there’s a delay on backstab because of the Revealed state. On top he only has 13k health. A zerk warrior has easily 20k+ health and does 2-4k per second with axes and can hit easily 7-8k with whirlwind attack on a low armour target.
To top that it also has the best mobility in the whole game: leaps and movement skills both on weapons and utilities, perma swiftness. And lastly it has damage negators on shield and endure pain. Seriously, if one class needs nerf it’s warrior.

That’s simply not true. Thieves who are weak make that choice via how they spec.

I don’t think the mechanic is broken just the potential for abuse. I don’t mind stealth but when a thief hits me and I survive via dodges, abilities, blinds, etc and turn back to fight and the thief runs., the thief should not be able to come back to attack me in the next few seconds like nothing happened.

Right now the state of thief is:

attack – kill? – no – hide a few secs – attack again -kill? – no – hide a few secs – attack again – kill? – no – hide a few secs – attack again – kill? – no -hide a few secs – attack again – kill? – yes

When others classes have to “run” they actually have to go away not just stand 3 feet away waiting for the CD.

So I definitely think that thieves should keep the stealth to attack and to run away, just find a way to make so that if things go wrong coming back isn’t that easy/fast.

TLDR – Don’t mind if a thief kills me because of stealth. Don’t mind if I can’t kill a thief because of stealth. I do mind if a thief gets “unlimited tries”.

Fortus.6175:

Sirendor.1394:

if you start making penalties on stealth for thieves… the whole class will become useless.

I keep hearing this but im sure all most of the people saying this havent read most if not all of the OP;

Thieves need other ways of defense that doesnt involve being annoying, and imho they already are ok without constant stealth since they have a LOT of teleports and evades, but if needed, increase them. The class is supposed to be an acrobat, not a jehovas witness at 9am on a Sunday at your door

totally hilarious and true.

lol

Sirendor.1394:

The classes that have stealth are incredibly weak compared to others.

Thieves and mesmers only have 2 viable set-ups: pure zerk and pure condi. Both mean the thief/mesmer is low on vitality and toughness, and really easy to kill.

Just to give an example: my zerk thief does ~7k (4-5k on a heavy armour target) with backstab and there’s a delay on backstab because of the Revealed state. On top he only has 13k health. A zerk warrior has easily 20k+ health and does 2-4k per second with axes and can hit easily 7-8k with whirlwind attack on a low armour target.
To top that it also has the best mobility in the whole game: leaps and movement skills both on weapons and utilities, perma swiftness. And lastly it has damage negators on shield and endure pain. Seriously, if one class needs nerf it’s warrior.

There are plenty of other choices than pure zerk and pure condition for mesmers AND thieves…I used to run a tanky/bunker build for my mesmer in PvP, and…it was hilariously awesome.

I know you didn’t state otherwise, but as a mesmer I don’t need to rely on stealth as much as a thief. Mesmers have plenty of disabling skills as their defensive mechanism.

To me, asking a nerf for stealth for all classes, would be like asking to reduce the effectiveness of knockbacks, cripples, blurs, immobilize, and blocks. It would really hurt the mesmer if that happened.