Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

bhcbose.9615:

@Tobias

You have been given many definitions of rewarding. Then please feel free to give us your definition of rewarding since it seems like none of all the things written here satisfies you.

Errant was pretty accurate with his definition of reward vs difficulty.

I’m completely satisfied with my “reward” for content being the experience of doing it. I’m old enough that I used to play games with a “high score” tracker on them or a scoreboard you could put initials into. I never got onto them, as usually it was hard enough to get to the finish line.

But games like the first Super Mario Brothers, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy . . . there wasn’t any reward for them. There wasn’t even an Achievement list to check off. There was beating it. The first game I legitimately finished on my own with no help (guidebooks or other people pointing out solutions) was King’s Quest VI.

And that pretty much is why I play games: to play them. Shiny wonderful items? Achievements? That’s secondary to the experience. In MMOs, usually it’s more the experience with friends and other people which I find far more appealing than “get the shiny loot”.

. . . I am extraordinarily weird like that.

I played all these games, and while they seemed simple, they were very deep.
Mario got harder the further you went, enemies sped up, which in that game signifigantly increased difficulty, the levels were designed with tons of secrets and things to find. It had challenge, and it scaled to a high level of difficulty.
Zelda had progression, and reward, you got better weapons, and new different abilities that took you to new places, places that you thought you beat had hidden secrets, and when you beat it? they shuffled the game/levels/locations and made everything harder so you could try again and be challenged.
Final fantasty? tons of rewards and even an endgame, you could beat the game at like level 50, but there were hidden enemies with more complex skills and difficult patterns, not only that but they give you super special powered weapons like pearl sword, a huge dmg sword that also does light dmg. Not to mention a really cool story for most of them, and a deep world.

Coming from that era of games you should actually expect a fairly decent challenge, and rewards (which isnt really about gold) as you play. The least rewarding would probably be mario, where your primary reward was more lives, so you could play longer.

Heres the thing, beating GW2 isnt challenging enough to be the point of the game. Zaitan was a chump, 7/8 of the dungeons was just a matter of time until success, fractals, probably the most endgamish thing, but it could use some tweaks, some more unpredictability, more exciting reward system, and some more content that appears as you get deeper in. I would throw in some bonus challenge objectives for greater rewards.

It’s amazing people want to attribute things to Final Fantasy which weren’t part of it as the version I talked about. Final Fantasy on the NES. No number, no re-release, no extra content, and no Pearl Sword to break the game. (Just Xcalbur and Masmune..)

Also, Zelda’s progression . . . the first game . . . was almost entirely based on exploration. Sure, you could get better swords but you could also go quite a distance without ever bothering. (Or, if you were really feeling like a challenge, almost at all.) The vertical progression was minimal, natural, and not nearly as important as the more linear progression of “find tool to get past X obstacle”. I enjoyed it a lot, and enjoy Zelda games where that’s more of a thing than “get special object in dungeon, never use it again”.

Again, we do come to face what I consider one of the lacking things of an end-game focus – there’s not as much of “this is new and/or interesting” as there is this focus on whether it offers tangible rewards. I was asked what I considered rewarding, and went into what video games I remember the most . . . and softballed the answer.

Because of the games outside of MMOs I remember most, three come to mind for having a “rewarding” feeling when all is said and done. “Ys 3: Wanderers from Ys” on the SNES, “King’s Quest VI: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow” on the PC, “X-Com: Terror From the Deep” on the PC.

The first one because it was an introduction to a series I have grown to love for the music and gameplay, the second because I beat it without a guide to tell me how to do things or a hintbook, and the third because it is balls-out the toughest game I can think of which I not only beat but outright destroyed.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

bhcbose.9615:

I played these game you stated because I am also old enough. But lets not compare these games to MMO.

Why not? It’s all valid to me, because we’re discussing what I find rewarding. Not why I play MMOs, which is almost the same reason I occasionally whip out my copy of Settlers of Catan when friends are over and three drinks down for the night.

Because it is fun.

If you truly played real mmo before you would clearly understand why there is currently an issue in Gw2 regarding reward vs difficulty.

“Real MMO”. Were you not reading when I listed that I played EverQuest? Often credited as one of the forefathers of the modern MMO? Or would you like me to list off others? Ultima Online, perhaps? Should I go for total oldschool cred and list Meridian 59, where endgame was all PvP and guild fights?

I played through to Plane of Time in EQ1, and before that I did Plane of Hate raids semi-regularly, Sebilis camps, I had a blast at one point just farming the everloving crap out of Velketor’s Labyrinth.

In Ultima Online, I was a miner, carpenter, and blacksmith. I enjoyed that immensely – dressing up a little tower in the woods with various things and staying the heck away from people who could crush me due to having everything prepared for “utter ownage”.

Meridian 59, last and oldest of them, I would routinely fight in Brax and off on the Island because it was fun, and it usually resulted in the most interesting and tense experiences I could have – no safety for a long way, and not an easy way to escape being caught there.

And you want to know what? All three of these games had a risk vs reward system which was usually completely out of balance. Meridian 59 had very little cool rewards which weren’t from the RNG box (yes, one existed there too), Ultima Online had no unique rewards which you didn’t hide in six layers of boxes in the bank so people wouldn’t take them. EverQuest was the first time I ran into the “gear treadmill” in the full absurdity of always chasing better loot with better stats as a reward for yet another absurd raid, ending with /random 0 100 to see if you got the privilege. (Or if you were in a certain raid and your guild chose to award that way, DKP.)

I honestly don’t miss the reward system of those three games.

Most of the people that player Gw1 can say that there was an endgame in Gw1 that was not cash shop related.

Sure, but I’ll still contemplate and point out the “rewarding” aspect of GW1’s endgame dungeons/missions/content was usually purely cosmetic or another aspect of gold-grinding.

gw1 reward system was better because the best way to get most things was to do the challenging content. Unless you were a trading hustler. The other option was to grind, which generally took longer to get the things you couldnt beat on your own. The dif is in GW2 the best way to get everything is to do the type of cheesy grinds they would always nerf in GW1. Doing any specific/challenging content is always the worst way to achieve any goal, that isnt hardwired to that content.

want ascended? buy inscriptions for 40 gold, earned in 8-4 hours of grind, other option? get to level 11+ in fractals, get a 1/100-1/20 chance for 40 min to 2 hours of play, you can only attempt it 1-4 times a day tops.
so for like a 60% chance to get ascended, you can spend 25ish hours playing fractals, or you can spend 4 hours on a champ train, and actually get a guaranteed success AND select exactly what peice and stat type you want.

The game design basically screams at you to do the easiest content possible repeatedly to get anything.
This would be like if the best way to beat an FF game was to stay in the level one dungeon forever.

Outside of teq and wurm, the entire open world “endgame” bosses/meta events are done by simply spamming 1. Its literally that easy. Hop on guardian and spam 1 with staff and it will rain heavy loot bags.
And guess what, this method happens to be incredibly rewarding lol.

Sure you can do your daily dungs but outside of doing it once for the daily gold, what incentive is there to farm?

Is it seriously that hard to add an option to all dungs and ask the player if they want a veteran/hard mode version of the dung that takes more time by ramping up diffuculty and adding different mechanics to get better loot and an overall more fun dung experience?
Your telling me in the 2 years this couldnt have been added? GW2 possibly has one of the most unrewarding dungeon systems in MMOs.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s amazing people want to attribute things to Final Fantasy which weren’t part of it as the version I talked about. Final Fantasy on the NES. No number, no re-release, no extra content, and no Pearl Sword to break the game. (Just Xcalbur and Masmune..)

Also, Zelda’s progression . . . the first game . . . was almost entirely based on exploration. Sure, you could get better swords but you could also go quite a distance without ever bothering. (Or, if you were really feeling like a challenge, almost at all.) The vertical progression was minimal, natural, and not nearly as important as the more linear progression of “find tool to get past X obstacle”. I enjoyed it a lot, and enjoy Zelda games where that’s more of a thing than “get special object in dungeon, never use it again”.

Again, we do come to face what I consider one of the lacking things of an end-game focus – there’s not as much of “this is new and/or interesting” as there is this focus on whether it offers tangible rewards. I was asked what I considered rewarding, and went into what video games I remember the most . . . and softballed the answer.

Because of the games outside of MMOs I remember most, three come to mind for having a “rewarding” feeling when all is said and done. “Ys 3: Wanderers from Ys” on the SNES, “King’s Quest VI: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow” on the PC, “X-Com: Terror From the Deep” on the PC.

The first one because it was an introduction to a series I have grown to love for the music and gameplay, the second because I beat it without a guide to tell me how to do things or a hintbook, and the third because it is balls-out the toughest game I can think of which I not only beat but outright destroyed.

FF1 was far from their best game, but even in it, they had progression, i remember at some point you change from cartoony guys to bad kitten (for 8 bit pixels) guys.

And you are ignoring that all of those games was way tougher than GW2 and the ones that i know of had vertical progression in the form of progressively harder levels the further you go, Every time you beat a level, which got progressively harder, you got access to some new area, with new things, which was usually harder. Im not saying it has to be this exact way, but you got to have depth, and you got to have a reason to do it. GW2 lacks depth/challenge, and generally a reason to do it.

you realize candy crush has more depth and feels more rewarding than Gw2?

Wanderer.3248:

voidwater.2064:

I think the game could benefit from more “high end” dungeons (e.g. Arah, stuff hard enough to cause people to pay for runs), dungeons with larger team size, and PvP content, the things that I consider “end game” content.

Five is a holy number in dungeons for some reason, don’t ask me why.

Yes, in GW2 the cap is 5 in dungeons. But lets not forget that the cap in Guild Wars was 8, in most cases, until we had the option of a team of 12 for The Deep. Perhaps there will eventually be content that does something similar.

phys.7689:

gw1 reward system was better because the best way to get most things was to do the challenging content. Unless you were a trading hustler. The other option was to grind, which generally took longer to get the things you couldnt beat on your own.

I don’t know, there was the Zaishen RNG Chest, which could make you some money if you were lucky. Or doing certain dungeons for rare skins with good stats you could pawn off trading with little effort. Or, most possibly, getting a green minipet from a birthday box.

The dif is in GW2 the best way to get everything is to do the type of cheesy grinds they would always nerf in GW1. Doing any specific/challenging content is always the worst way to achieve any goal, that isnt hardwired to that content.

want ascended? buy inscriptions for 40 gold, earned in 8-4 hours of grind, other option? get to level 11+ in fractals, get a 1/100-1/20 chance for 40 min to 2 hours of play, you can only attempt it 1-4 times a day tops.

It may be just me but I had well over 40 gold by the time I hit 100% Map Completion (the only goal I’d realistically set myself when I started).

The game design basically screams at you to do the easiest content possible repeatedly to get anything. This would be like if the best way to beat an FF game was to stay in the level one dungeon forever.

Funny you should mention that, there were more than a few kitten which rewarded the behavior of grinding in the early areas. Mostly 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, and to a lesser degree 12. There’s seriously a trick you can access around 1/3 of the way into 12 where you can almost auto-level to 99 . . . almost.

And that’s without going further back to “Power Peninsula”. A glitch so amazing for jumping levels and grinding cash fast with a moderate amount of danger, assuming you had two black magic casters and access to Fire2.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Problem with slowly levelling (for me) is mainly that levelling the alts will get boring. But for the main I don’t really care how long it takes. Another problems with leveling in general is what you do (as developer) when releasing an expansion. Up the level? But then it becomes to much for new players if you keep doing that. And if you don’t up the level then maybe don’t focus at leveling at all? I have seen some interesting ways to try and solve those problems but I do understand why it might be a problem from a development standpoint.

About crafting. Personally I never cared about armor that much and you could argue that if everybody can craft it anyway there is also no value for it. Giving room for Twinks in your game might then in my idea be more effective.

For me however what is interesting in crafting is if I can make fun items and there is always an next item jus around the corner to work towards. Like the example of your mechanical squirl. That was one of the first things an engineer could make but was a really fun item to work towards. Just like the parachute cape that came not long after it all up to the helicopter mount at the max level (back then). So there was always this next fun item to work towards. Compare that to crafting in GW2. What do people really craft for? Legendaries weapons and now ascended gear. So the item you want it at level 400 or 500 and the way up there is just boring crafting level grind. Not more.

The type of fun items they could put in fun crafts are in the cash-shop. Like the music instruments. Also not the bubble head thing would be great for some fun craft.

well there isnt a lot thats most certainly true but there are some fun stuff to craft…

like Tonics & endless tonics, dyes, some unique skins, a handful of minatures

Yeah there are indeed few items but not a lot and certainly not enough to have something to work towards every 5 levels. I would love to see crafts bases mainly on such items.. fun crafts as I call them. (because they tent to be just for fun, not to make money or get higher stat gear).

Craftable mini’s in GW2?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

phys.7689:

gw1 reward system was better because the best way to get most things was to do the challenging content. Unless you were a trading hustler. The other option was to grind, which generally took longer to get the things you couldnt beat on your own.

I don’t know, there was the Zaishen RNG Chest, which could make you some money if you were lucky. Or doing certain dungeons for rare skins with good stats you could pawn off trading with little effort. Or, most possibly, getting a green minipet from a birthday box.

The dif is in GW2 the best way to get everything is to do the type of cheesy grinds they would always nerf in GW1. Doing any specific/challenging content is always the worst way to achieve any goal, that isnt hardwired to that content.

want ascended? buy inscriptions for 40 gold, earned in 8-4 hours of grind, other option? get to level 11+ in fractals, get a 1/100-1/20 chance for 40 min to 2 hours of play, you can only attempt it 1-4 times a day tops.

It may be just me but I had well over 40 gold by the time I hit 100% Map Completion (the only goal I’d realistically set myself when I started).

The game design basically screams at you to do the easiest content possible repeatedly to get anything. This would be like if the best way to beat an FF game was to stay in the level one dungeon forever.

Funny you should mention that, there were more than a few kitten which rewarded the behavior of grinding in the early areas. Mostly 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, and to a lesser degree 12. There’s seriously a trick you can access around 1/3 of the way into 12 where you can almost auto-level to 99 . . . almost.

And that’s without going further back to “Power Peninsula”. A glitch so amazing for jumping levels and grinding cash fast with a moderate amount of danger, assuming you had two black magic casters and access to Fire2.

one of them had scaling mobs, its been awhile. Anyhow, basically, they dont have to do anything really, but i think the game would benefit from content thats a bit deeper, and some sort of good reward for it. Maybe they could gate some more hard content behind it. or do something totally different, but I play other games now, and i really miss the challenge. I played a mini game in another game that was essentially Simon, and i felt a huge rush of satisfaction beating one annoying level, that i have not felt in GW2 to date i think. I will admit the reward was crappy though.

“Endgame”, to me, in any mmo, is when I get to the point where either I need to take an extended break from the game, or move on to a new mmo.

I haven’t reached that point in GW2, yet. It still entertains me quite a bit.

High level end game rewarding content?

Ascended gear.
Skins and more skins.

The problem?

Fractals and legendary is the only thing that kind of fits into skins and it’s all RNG based. (which is dumb for a “Skill based game”)

Ascended is a farmville level of gold grind.

You can make an argument that PvP/WvW and Guild reputation actually means much, and I’ll prob bite to it being valid but a lot of that is to each their own… and at the end of the day that is still not actual content, that’s people finding something to do in the world.

I’m all fine for no gear treadmills in fact I love it. (tho I hate crafting and ascended, even tho I did what I had to do.)

But there are plenty of things that can be added to the game that would be actual High level end game content with proper Rewards that fit the philosophy.

For example: Raids for tokens to buy skins and ascended gear. (I’d have even been fine with just skins before ascended even came out.)

If we had proper raids or 10 man content (hell even challenging 5 man content) that had skins and fun consumables as rewards NOT based on RNG (Although RNG can help a goal) This would fit and give people proper content.

Daishi.6027:

If we had proper raids or 10 man content (hell even challenging 5 man content) that had skins and fun consumables as rewards NOT based on RNG (Although RNG can help a goal) This would fit and give people proper content.

I’d bite on a test-case where two different groups compose and run a dungeon-like instance from opposite ends to meet in the middle for the final fight. Vizunah Square was a relatively fun mission when the bugs didn’ crop up.

Seriously, that’d actually be interesting – X groups of 5 players queuing up or entering an area together to run separate paths (or paths which intersect then diverge later) and culminating in a rather impressive, large battle where multiple-group tactics can/must be used so the fight can be won.

Let the rewards be tokens traded for skins. Screw just getting handed Ascended-stat things, because then everyone and their sister would complain about how they’re now “forced” to do that event due to the reward being too good.

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

….

By default the game is easy, no doubt about that and its not a flaw its a design choice they made to be casual friendly. But beyond that people also play in a manner that trivializes it more but joining together and refusing to spread out that makes the issue that much worst.

All this being said I love a challenge as much as you or anyone else and although I understand why there arent more challenges because of their design choices (not because I accept sub-par content) I am hopeful S2 might include more peripheral challenging content since its one thing they specifically mentioned as a major request they heard loud and clear from a large part of the community. I am curious to see what they’ve come up with. 2 more weeks to go

you are actually mistaken in assuming that you can only design for casuals, or hardcores, good well designed systems work for both and appropriately give them something to do at all levels of play.
Basketball, playable by 5 year olds, all the way up to 60 year olds
Chess, learnable at 8, mastered for a lifetime

good game design does not choose casual or hardcore, is made for both. Now we are talking about hardcore in terms of skill here, (which doesnt really always map to time spent) And it really has to in order to last, because eventually if they keep playing, even the casuals become hardcore (skill wise) If they dont build for more depth, you will end up getting greater turnaround.

IE many players will come, enjoy the game, then leave when it offers nothing deeper. You can bring in new players by being casual, but eventually you will have used up your market.

This pattern seems to be anecdotally correct from my observation. Many many people have come, and gone.

The only way anet can keep people going without creating depth of play, is to keep creating new interesting stories, and places, In this respect both the casual and the hardcore could enjoy it. However, this would basically be like creating a hit TV show/comic book on your first attempt, its not really what they built themselves for, its unlikely they can do it, and probably not the best course of action to depend on that.

Best bet is for them to try to make a deep and compelling game, that you can keep getting better at playing, and have things to do as you progress in skill. They also have to design the reward system to lead people.

Hmmm.. what a concept, a game that contains content Not simply for casuals, but for hard-core. The problem is…players will always take the path of least resistance.

Anet needs to make content that as a player enters higher levels demands that they use different skills than 1..1..1..dodge.

But there are 2 problems with this idea.

1. It will be hard for Anet, And too many players are fine with superficial, and shallow content, because they don’t want to demand more… because…

“The devs said it would be hard.”

2. It may chase away the uncommited casuals. A game should never be made that sees the uncommited casual as it’s target audience. These players will drop you when a new game comes out. They will drop you when a Lot of their friends leave for another game..they follow, because they are uncommited.

Who should this game… That dared to call itseelf Guild Wars 2. Have targeted?

The casuals that played Guild Wars… duh.

But Let us remember the reason they dumped MOST of the core experience of Guild wars.

" the devs thought about it, and then decided..it would be hard."

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Daishi.6027:

If we had proper raids or 10 man content (hell even challenging 5 man content) that had skins and fun consumables as rewards NOT based on RNG (Although RNG can help a goal) This would fit and give people proper content.

I’d bite on a test-case where two different groups compose and run a dungeon-like instance from opposite ends to meet in the middle for the final fight. Vizunah Square was a relatively fun mission when the bugs didn’ crop up.

Seriously, that’d actually be interesting – X groups of 5 players queuing up or entering an area together to run separate paths (or paths which intersect then diverge later) and culminating in a rather impressive, large battle where multiple-group tactics can/must be used so the fight can be won.

Let the rewards be tokens traded for skins. Screw just getting handed Ascended-stat things, because then everyone and their sister would complain about how they’re now “forced” to do that event due to the reward being too good.

Tokens is yet another currency (so boring) so while nice to have as an extra there should also be some unique drops in there you would really want to go for.

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Daishi.6027:

If we had proper raids or 10 man content (hell even challenging 5 man content) that had skins and fun consumables as rewards NOT based on RNG (Although RNG can help a goal) This would fit and give people proper content.

I’d bite on a test-case where two different groups compose and run a dungeon-like instance from opposite ends to meet in the middle for the final fight. Vizunah Square was a relatively fun mission when the bugs didn’ crop up.

Seriously, that’d actually be interesting – X groups of 5 players queuing up or entering an area together to run separate paths (or paths which intersect then diverge later) and culminating in a rather impressive, large battle where multiple-group tactics can/must be used so the fight can be won.

Let the rewards be tokens traded for skins. Screw just getting handed Ascended-stat things, because then everyone and their sister would complain about how they’re now “forced” to do that event due to the reward being too good.

Tokens is yet another currency (so boring) so while nice to have as an extra there should also be some unique drops in there you would really want to go for.

There is a story about a Pudding recipe that on paper looks amazing. But when you bite into it tastes … meh. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Thile Dungeon Tokens sounds Like a good idea On paper… allowing players to run the dungeon Numerous times then deciding what to get with it from the dungeon merchants…. In practice… it failrs in my opinion.

RNG may be bad in some ways ( Mystic Slot machine)… But when it comes to dungons. Most of My thrill comes when I see a drop I can use… ( rng #1 lines up) anmd then I need to roll to see if I get it, or that other DPS gets it… ( RNG #2.)

For me… this feels Like " I heard this item was In that dungeon, and here it is!!! which of us gets it Jobe… I choose rock!"

As opposed to tokens, which make me feel Like I am clocking in, and clocking out… Like a job.

Devata.6589:

Tokens is yet another currency (so boring) so while nice to have as an extra there should also be some unique drops in there you would really want to go for.

Nerelith.7360:

As opposed to tokens, which make me feel Like I am clocking in, and clocking out… Like a job.

Well, you see, there’s a reason I go to Tokens as a means of determining loot, or even a chest item you can open and choose your reward out of (a la Weapon/Armor boxes). It’s because I’ve, in the past, been burned by RNG or even the choice of random rolls, heck even DKP systems which are supposed to be fairly adjudicated have been broken due to corrupt methods of accounting them by guild leaders.

Heck, most of my dungeon loot in Eye of the North would be diamonds, uncommon rare items (with useless stats), and maybe some onyx. Saurian Scythe? Emerald Blade? Amythest Shield? Please, I had to pay people to get those if I wanted them. Pretty big collection of stuff I’d never use though. (At least it raised my Wisdom track.)

Tokens or otherwise is a fair choice, it’s guaranteed to be useful instead of “yay, two greens and a blue”™, and it’s less like the Precursor Lottery.

It is also maybe boring, maybe not exciting to go “what’s in the box?!” but . . . show of hands . . . how many people really expect to get the awesome-and-useful end of the loot spectrum opening loot bags or end-area chests?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Tokens is yet another currency (so boring) so while nice to have as an extra there should also be some unique drops in there you would really want to go for.

Nerelith.7360:

As opposed to tokens, which make me feel Like I am clocking in, and clocking out… Like a job.

Well, you see, there’s a reason I go to Tokens as a means of determining loot, or even a chest item you can open and choose your reward out of (a la Weapon/Armor boxes). It’s because I’ve, in the past, been burned by RNG or even the choice of random rolls, heck even DKP systems which are supposed to be fairly adjudicated have been broken due to corrupt methods of accounting them by guild leaders.

Heck, most of my dungeon loot in Eye of the North would be diamonds, uncommon rare items (with useless stats), and maybe some onyx. Saurian Scythe? Emerald Blade? Amythest Shield? Please, I had to pay people to get those if I wanted them. Pretty big collection of stuff I’d never use though. (At least it raised my Wisdom track.)

Tokens or otherwise is a fair choice, it’s guaranteed to be useful instead of “yay, two greens and a blue”™, and it’s less like the Precursor Lottery.

It is also maybe boring, maybe not exciting to go “what’s in the box?!” but . . . show of hands . . . how many people really expect to get the awesome-and-useful end of the loot spectrum opening loot bags or end-area chests?

best method would probably incorporate both, so you get the lucky drop, or you end up working toward it, either way your happy.
Another method might be a gold ticket you can exchange for a random roll, or a token.

Devata.6589:

Craftable mini’s in GW2?

yeah…. there are the toy maker minis you can craft directly.
and technically you can craft any mini except for a few special ones by putting any 4 minis in the mystical forge and getting another random one in return (MF crafting is boring crafting I know, not saying its fun far from it.. but it is doable)

Teon.5168:

“Endgame”, to me, in any mmo, is when I get to the point where either I need to take an extended break from the game, or move on to a new mmo.

I haven’t reached that point in GW2, yet. It still entertains me quite a bit.

its the same for me, its just most engames are based around repetition of the same content for an extended period of time and I just dont enjoy that. Not that Gw2 doesnt have any repetition but unlike other MMOs you can repeat any of the content not a small subset + the 2 week LS releases help a lot as well not to mention a huge diversity of content you get when leveling up.

The only thing missing for the perfect endgame for me would be housing… thats kinda a big thing thats missing and more challenging content.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Tokens is yet another currency (so boring) so while nice to have as an extra there should also be some unique drops in there you would really want to go for.

Nerelith.7360:

As opposed to tokens, which make me feel Like I am clocking in, and clocking out… Like a job.

Well, you see, there’s a reason I go to Tokens as a means of determining loot, or even a chest item you can open and choose your reward out of (a la Weapon/Armor boxes). It’s because I’ve, in the past, been burned by RNG or even the choice of random rolls, heck even DKP systems which are supposed to be fairly adjudicated have been broken due to corrupt methods of accounting them by guild leaders.

Heck, most of my dungeon loot in Eye of the North would be diamonds, uncommon rare items (with useless stats), and maybe some onyx. Saurian Scythe? Emerald Blade? Amythest Shield? Please, I had to pay people to get those if I wanted them. Pretty big collection of stuff I’d never use though. (At least it raised my Wisdom track.)

Tokens or otherwise is a fair choice, it’s guaranteed to be useful instead of “yay, two greens and a blue”™, and it’s less like the Precursor Lottery.

It is also maybe boring, maybe not exciting to go “what’s in the box?!” but . . . show of hands . . . how many people really expect to get the awesome-and-useful end of the loot spectrum opening loot bags or end-area chests?

Well the reason I say you need to have specific drops (rng) is because I get burned out by currency driven game-play. In fact it does not stimulate me to do it to begin with (so sort of burned before I begin) because it’s such a boring indeed job-like business.

However it’s just fine to have as an extra so I don’t say it should be taken out. In addition lets say an items required 20 tokens (just an example!) and you get one token per run then they can make the item drop at a rate that on average you get it once every 20 runs. Then it would be similar. Sure with token you are sure you get it in 20 runs while with rng you might be lucky and get it the first try or unlucky and get it the 40th time. But overall (with all the drops in the game) you should have the same average. So it’s just as

Also tokens as a side thing (like dungeons tokens to get a dungeon-set) is fine. Just don’t make it the main thing to go for. It should just be a side thing.

Lastly I don’t say the item should be account-bound. While I guess for some items it would make sense most should not be account-bound. Meaning there will still be some available on the TP meaning if that’s what you like you can still grind gold to buy it. So nothing would be lost and everybody should be able to get it the way he likes.

If currency is the only option, well then that is the only option and it takes away of the rush you get every time for “will it drop” turning it into a boring job.

“It is also maybe boring, maybe not exciting to go “what’s in the box?!” ” Always have find boxes or chest a little strange. Let let the kitten mob drop it. Anyway isn’t this the whole point? The game is supposed to be fun and exciting. Not boring. Like you seem to agree on, tokens are boring and not exciting.

“how many people really expect to get the awesome-and-useful end of the loot spectrum opening loot bags or end-area chests?” I did read this sentence multiple times but not sure what you are asking. Anyway, loot bags are not what I consider special items that a mob can drop. In fact I don’t really understand the whole idea of loot bags. Get an item to drop that can drop something. It’s just an extra click. Only reason I can come up with they use it in GW2 is to prevent Magic Find to have influence on it. Sure in some cases having a mob to drop a bag with herbs or something is fine and makes sense. But all the bag-drops in GW2 I don’t get it from a game-point. Also chest.. just let the mob drop it. Where the heck did that chest suddenly came from. But that maybe has something to do with me who wants thinks to make sense in a game-world (make sense in a game-world of way of course).

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Tokens is yet another currency (so boring) so while nice to have as an extra there should also be some unique drops in there you would really want to go for.

Nerelith.7360:

As opposed to tokens, which make me feel Like I am clocking in, and clocking out… Like a job.

Well, you see, there’s a reason I go to Tokens as a means of determining loot, or even a chest item you can open and choose your reward out of (a la Weapon/Armor boxes). It’s because I’ve, in the past, been burned by RNG or even the choice of random rolls, heck even DKP systems which are supposed to be fairly adjudicated have been broken due to corrupt methods of accounting them by guild leaders.

Heck, most of my dungeon loot in Eye of the North would be diamonds, uncommon rare items (with useless stats), and maybe some onyx. Saurian Scythe? Emerald Blade? Amythest Shield? Please, I had to pay people to get those if I wanted them. Pretty big collection of stuff I’d never use though. (At least it raised my Wisdom track.)

Tokens or otherwise is a fair choice, it’s guaranteed to be useful instead of “yay, two greens and a blue”™, and it’s less like the Precursor Lottery.

It is also maybe boring, maybe not exciting to go “what’s in the box?!” but . . . show of hands . . . how many people really expect to get the awesome-and-useful end of the loot spectrum opening loot bags or end-area chests?

best method would probably incorporate both, so you get the lucky drop, or you end up working toward it, either way your happy.
Another method might be a gold ticket you can exchange for a random roll, or a token.

I don’t think you should do that with exactly the same item however SAB had a system where you basically had both. I think you should do it for other items. Like a dungeon can have it’s own dungeon set you can get for tokens. however there are also 1 or 2 or 3 very special drops you can get. A special mini or weapon or mount or something for housing (whenever they introduce anything like that). There is still the possibility to go for that with grinding gold if that’s really what you prefer.

Nerelith.7360:

Hmmm.. what a concept, a game that contains content Not simply for casuals, but for hard-core. The problem is…players will always take the path of least resistance.

Anet needs to make content that as a player enters higher levels demands that they use different skills than 1..1..1..dodge.

But there are 2 problems with this idea.

1. It will be hard for Anet, And too many players are fine with superficial, and shallow content, because they don’t want to demand more… because…

“The devs said it would be hard.”

2. It may chase away the uncommited casuals. A game should never be made that sees the uncommited casual as it’s target audience. These players will drop you when a new game comes out. They will drop you when a Lot of their friends leave for another game..they follow, because they are uncommited.

Who should this game… That dared to call itseelf Guild Wars 2. Have targeted?

The casuals that played Guild Wars… duh.

But Let us remember the reason they dumped MOST of the core experience of Guild wars.

" the devs thought about it, and then decided..it would be hard."

Content forces no one to simply use 1.1.1.1 dodge and nothing, people decide to that themselves no one else and part of the problem there is this game has no mob tagging. Its both a good thing and a bad thing. Its a good thing because it creates a good sense of community. If you see someone in trouble you help them, you dont even need to think about it. In other games its not so simple. An example I was give is from the game loong I used to play. This guy was nearly death hanging on to the last thread of life being chased by this boss who had most of his health still on. I engaged and got aggro from the boss, let him get away and recharge when he came back I started moving away to let him finish off the boss only he decided to kill me instead because he tought I was stealing his kill. Just think how different the player community is between these two games. How bad it is when someone who just saved you is considered an enemy just because everything is competitive.

the downside to that is you can “abuse” the system. Like you said people take the path of least resistance. Champions die really fast when you zerg them with 100+ people but what do you expect, they scale up to 10!

Well there are 2 issues with your statement, one is who says that casuals are uncommitted? Casuals like hardcore players look for certain aspects in a game and a game that satisfies those aspects I would imagine they’ll likely stick to it.

and Two who says hardcore players are more likely to commit then casuals? Just like casuals might jump ship when they find another casual game to suit their needs cant hardcores jump ship when another hardcore game comes ?

As for Gw vs Gw2 it all depends on what you enjoyed when playing Gw.. I loved the story, how alive the world felt and the flexibility to play my char the way I wanted. For me Gw2 improved on what I liked. Sure I enjoyed FoW, UW and DoA immensely as well and yes I would love something similar in Gw2 as well but I assure you if Gw was just about FoW, UW and DoA once you hit max level I would have dropped it as well because as challenging as the content was at the end of the day I just cant stick doing the same thing over and over again for years I just dont enjoy that kind of game.

No I dont think the devs looked at it and decided it would be hard to implement I think they looked at it and decided it doesnt attract enough people because lets face it you could play Gw1 casually and enjoy FoW, UW and DoA, you needed some commitment to play said content. Where they wrong? Well numbers dont think so because player activity is much larger in Gw2 then it ever was in the original GW.

Galen Grey.4709:

No I dont think the devs looked at it and decided it would be hard to implement I think they looked at it and decided it doesnt attract enough people because lets face it you could play Gw1 casually and enjoy FoW, UW and DoA, you needed some commitment to play said content. Where they wrong? Well numbers dont think so because player activity is much larger in Gw2 then it ever was in the original GW.

You really think the game sold better because they did not focus on these sort of elements? Well then you are plain wrong. GW1 was new game and then created a name for itself. However it was not a real open world and so less attractive to many people.

When GW2 came it had a big name and was a real MMO. They also made much more publicity for it. Basically it’s a bigger franchise that’s why it has more players. Not because of anything like what you suggest. That is even stuff people don’t know untill they play it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Nerelith.7360:

Hmmm.. what a concept, a game that contains content Not simply for casuals, but for hard-core. The problem is…players will always take the path of least resistance.

Anet needs to make content that as a player enters higher levels demands that they use different skills than 1..1..1..dodge.

But there are 2 problems with this idea.

1. It will be hard for Anet, And too many players are fine with superficial, and shallow content, because they don’t want to demand more… because…

“The devs said it would be hard.”

2. It may chase away the uncommited casuals. A game should never be made that sees the uncommited casual as it’s target audience. These players will drop you when a new game comes out. They will drop you when a Lot of their friends leave for another game..they follow, because they are uncommited.

Who should this game… That dared to call itseelf Guild Wars 2. Have targeted?

The casuals that played Guild Wars… duh.

But Let us remember the reason they dumped MOST of the core experience of Guild wars.

" the devs thought about it, and then decided..it would be hard."

Content forces no one to simply use 1.1.1.1 dodge and nothing, people decide to that themselves no one else and part of the problem there is this game has no mob tagging. Its both a good thing and a bad thing. Its a good thing because it creates a good sense of community. If you see someone in trouble you help them, you dont even need to think about it. In other games its not so simple. An example I was give is from the game loong I used to play. This guy was nearly death hanging on to the last thread of life being chased by this boss who had most of his health still on. I engaged and got aggro from the boss, let him get away and recharge when he came back I started moving away to let him finish off the boss only he decided to kill me instead because he tought I was stealing his kill. Just think how different the player community is between these two games. How bad it is when someone who just saved you is considered an enemy just because everything is competitive.

the downside to that is you can “abuse” the system. Like you said people take the path of least resistance. Champions die really fast when you zerg them with 100+ people but what do you expect, they scale up to 10!

Well there are 2 issues with your statement, one is who says that casuals are uncommitted? Casuals like hardcore players look for certain aspects in a game and a game that satisfies those aspects I would imagine they’ll likely stick to it.

and Two who says hardcore players are more likely to commit then casuals? Just like casuals might jump ship when they find another casual game to suit their needs cant hardcores jump ship when another hardcore game comes ?

As for Gw vs Gw2 it all depends on what you enjoyed when playing Gw.. I loved the story, how alive the world felt and the flexibility to play my char the way I wanted. For me Gw2 improved on what I liked. Sure I enjoyed FoW, UW and DoA immensely as well and yes I would love something similar in Gw2 as well but I assure you if Gw was just about FoW, UW and DoA once you hit max level I would have dropped it as well because as challenging as the content was at the end of the day I just cant stick doing the same thing over and over again for years I just dont enjoy that kind of game.

No I dont think the devs looked at it and decided it would be hard to implement I think they looked at it and decided it doesnt attract enough people because lets face it you could play Gw1 casually and enjoy FoW, UW and DoA, you needed some commitment to play said content. Where they wrong? Well numbers dont think so because player activity is much larger in Gw2 then it ever was in the original GW.

you Misunderstood me. I am not saying casuals are uncommited. I am saying EXACTLY the opposite.

There are COMMITTED casuals…. and UNCOMMITTED casuals.

I did not say " All casuals are uncommitted. " I said " SOME casuals are Uncommitted, and centering your game around THOSE casuals is a mistake on anet’s part. THOSE casuals will shake Gw2 rather easilly over the next hello, kitty II release precisely because they ARE Uncommitted casuals."

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

PS: Just because more people play gw2, than ever played Guild wars, doesn’t mean Gw2 has more depth… or is a better game.

In My opinion , all it means is more people bought and play it. The Number of people says nothing about How each game compares to the other. This is a Logical fallacy.." More people play it it must be better." Not always, and Not in this case.

More people visit McDonald’s than Peter Luger’s. But if you ask me where I wanna be taken on a date, it’s not to buy a Big Mac.

Nerelith.7360:

I did not say " All casuals are uncommitted. " I said " SOME casuals are Uncommitted, and centering your game around THOSE casuals is a mistake on anet’s part. THOSE casuals will shake Gw2 rather easilly over the next hello, kitty II release precisely because they ARE Uncommitted casuals."

Very much like all “hardcore” players that consume whatever content they get in a few days or weeks and then leave for the next game, since in the current game “endgame sucks”, and the next one will be soooo much better.

I already had to laugh hard when i read that people got to 50 in 3 days in WS and complained how bugged all the endgame there is, and there are only 3 different things to grind for them

Devata.6589:

SAB had a system where you basically had both. I think you should do it for other items. Like a dungeon can have it’s own dungeon set you can get for tokens. however there are also 1 or 2 or 3 very special drops you can get. A special mini or weapon or mount or something for housing (whenever they introduce anything like that). There is still the possibility to go for that with grinding gold if that’s really what you prefer.

Fractal rings are on a similar system: you have a chance at a random ring at the end of each fractal (level 10+), but also get a pristine relic each time, 10 of which let you trade for your ring of choice.

Personally, I very much like this kind of reward system. I’m among those who much easier burn out trying to run specific content for a random drop . I’ve had one case on an mmo I used to play where despite DKP I never got the best-in-slot item in a complete content life cycle, since our 12-man raid didn’t even get 12 of those items (with two raids a week) before the next expansion made it utterly useless. Bad luck with random drops, but it does happen.

The “random or tokens” way things are with fractal rings or SAB skins gives me the feeling of properly working towards my goal. I’ve already traded in for two fractal rings, because despite numerous ring drops, I never once got the stat combination I was looking for. I’ve also got those SAB-skins and minis that I wanted, and knew from the start that I could get them. I never once dropped one I wanted randomly though, all I got were skins for weapons none of my characters like to use anyway.

Dungeons in this game already have special drops, namely crafting recipes for jewellry items that only (rarely) drop in dungeons and need a crafting component available for the vendor that also sells the dungeon armor and weapons for said dungeon. These are pretty rare though, so not many people even know about them.

Expanding this system to drop extra dungeon-related skins (like the aetherpath skins), toys and consumables, minis, or (top of my personal wish-list) recipes for craftable dungeon-related minis would be great in my opinion, as long as those drops only happen occasionally (maybe even at a similar rate to aetherpath and fractal skins or current recipe drops).

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

No I dont think the devs looked at it and decided it would be hard to implement I think they looked at it and decided it doesnt attract enough people because lets face it you could play Gw1 casually and enjoy FoW, UW and DoA, you needed some commitment to play said content. Where they wrong? Well numbers dont think so because player activity is much larger in Gw2 then it ever was in the original GW.

You really think the game sold better because they did not focus on these sort of elements? Well then you are plain wrong. GW1 was new game and then created a name for itself. However it was not a real open world and so less attractive to many people.

When GW2 came it had a big name and was a real MMO. They also made much more publicity for it. Basically it’s a bigger franchise that’s why it has more players. Not because of anything like what you suggest. That is even stuff people don’t know untill they play it.

How can you tell? Also how can Gw2 have a bigger name then Gw1 when thats where its name comes from? You could potentially argue now it has a bigger name but at launch?

In anycase we’re not talking about how many people bought gw2 compared to gw1, we’re talking about how many people play gw2 compared to gw1 . Obviously its not one factor and I never claimed it was any one factor anyway. Buy saying Anet made all the wrong choice when transitioning gw1 to gw2 is obviously not true because gw2 has been a lot more successful for them.

Nerelith.7360:

you Misunderstood me. I am not saying casuals are uncommited. I am saying EXACTLY the opposite.

There are COMMITTED casuals…. and UNCOMMITTED casuals.

I did not say " All casuals are uncommitted. " I said " SOME casuals are Uncommitted, and centering your game around THOSE casuals is a mistake on anet’s part. THOSE casuals will shake Gw2 rather easilly over the next hello, kitty II release precisely because they ARE Uncommitted casuals."

I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

PS: Just because more people play gw2, than ever played Guild wars, doesn’t mean Gw2 has more depth… or is a better game.

In My opinion , all it means is more people bought and play it. The Number of people says nothing about How each game compares to the other. This is a Logical fallacy.." More people play it it must be better." Not always, and Not in this case.

More people visit McDonald’s than Peter Luger’s. But if you ask me where I wanna be taken on a date, it’s not to buy a Big Mac.

Okey granted there are different categories of casuals, totally fair enough but how exactly do you target uncommitted casuals vs committed casuals, wouldnt both groups like exactly the same things?

I never said anything about which one is the better game. There are many aspects to any game and what is better itself is subjective ergo thats not a statement anyone can ever do. Even if I take just myself thus removing the ambiguty of what better really means I would still not state one game is better then other. Some things I like better in Gw1 (the challenge being a major one) and some things I like better in Gw2 (a sense of having a world thats alive for example).

What I said what that decisions made by devs on what to change turn out to be correct, how can I claim that? because undoubtly one of the major (if not the major) target of moving from Gw1 to Gw2 is to make the new game more successful and a larger number of player playing it (not to mention higher revenues) dont leave any doubt that they did indeed reach their goal in that regard.

I just don’t get why people would be mad if content would be added to the game.

Would casuals be mad if the content added was to hard? Maybe

bhcbose.9615:

I just don’t get why people would be mad if content would be added to the game.

Would casuals be mad if the content added was to hard? Maybe

Depends on the content. I mean, if the content was just another RNG engine but attached to extreme difficulty so only the hardcore could get a chance, I would be mad. Similarly, if the rewards were only given to the person to land the actual killing blow to whatever end boss in the content, and everyone else got a lesser item? I’d be mad.

If the content was, also, just “Collect 10 Bear Rectums for one RNG Box” with the drop chance not being 100% for said bear parts? I’d be heavily annoyed. Further annoyed if the drops from the RNG Box were all basically vendor/salvage junk except for 1%.

You know, unlike Coffers of Whispers, where most of what you could get was useful or valuable.

I hope thats sarcasm for the coffer of whispers :P

Pay 4500karma to get less karma haha

This game isn’t about what we get in-game for our effort it’s about how many wallets can be forced open for the gem-store crap.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

No I dont think the devs looked at it and decided it would be hard to implement I think they looked at it and decided it doesnt attract enough people because lets face it you could play Gw1 casually and enjoy FoW, UW and DoA, you needed some commitment to play said content. Where they wrong? Well numbers dont think so because player activity is much larger in Gw2 then it ever was in the original GW.

You really think the game sold better because they did not focus on these sort of elements? Well then you are plain wrong. GW1 was new game and then created a name for itself. However it was not a real open world and so less attractive to many people.

When GW2 came it had a big name and was a real MMO. They also made much more publicity for it. Basically it’s a bigger franchise that’s why it has more players. Not because of anything like what you suggest. That is even stuff people don’t know untill they play it.

How can you tell? Also how can Gw2 have a bigger name then Gw1 when thats where its name comes from? You could potentially argue now it has a bigger name but at launch?

In anycase we’re not talking about how many people bought gw2 compared to gw1, we’re talking about how many people play gw2 compared to gw1 . Obviously its not one factor and I never claimed it was any one factor anyway. Buy saying Anet made all the wrong choice when transitioning gw1 to gw2 is obviously not true because gw2 has been a lot more successful for them.

That is also not what I am saying. I did not like GW1. Going for a true open world (well sort of, the instance maps don’t make it a true open world) and more an MMO then GW1 was, was a big positive that also mend the game was interesting for more people. (because mmo’s are a popular genre)

And when you have more people buying the game you usually also have more people playing. If it’s more successful as GW1 (not my comparison btw, I only said that your idea that those things we talked about basically must have been good because GW2 is bigger as GW1) you should see how many of the people that did buy the game at release still play it after 1 year and compare that percentage with GW2. Anyway that was not my point.

Im Mudbone.1437:

This game isn’t about what we get in-game for our effort it’s about how many wallets can be forced open for the gem-store crap.

Pretty much

The reward system in GW2 is flat out bad, point blank period
Yea it was the fastest selling MMO, but guess how many players quit after <6months?
Its been a dwindling playerbase, which is why the megaserver was in brought into place
The vast amount of dead maps with 1-2 players in most servers just casually leveling an alt or something

And the biggest reason for such a downfall is because the reward infrastructure is bad.
The toughest component of making a legendary(precursor) is 100% based on RNG. Thats pure lazy reward design.

Unfortunately, people in this game don’t want tough and difficult content to be more rewarding than casually playing…which is why I don’t think we will see a change in the reward infrastructure…

I feel like the sub level 80 content in this game is at least quadruple the post level 80 content. While it made for an absolute satisfying leveling experience, it didn’t last very long after 80. This is because mediocre map completion rewards left little incentive to return to lower level areas.

This is the opposite of GW1, where leveling up was long and boring to me, but at least half the story is experienced while at max level.

SkiTz.4590:

Im Mudbone.1437:

This game isn’t about what we get in-game for our effort it’s about how many wallets can be forced open for the gem-store crap.

Pretty much

Yeah, no. This game isn’t nearly about forcing your wallet open to grab cash. I should know, I tried games like that as a challenge to see how far I could get without succumbing.

Soon as something which is inherently necessary shows up on the Gem Store, I’ll concede the point. Until then, I’m going to keep saying this: There is nothing forcing you to buy through the cash store.

The reward system in GW2 is flat out bad, point blank period

Just because you say it, doesn’t make it so. Even if you use “point blank period”. I could say hardcore content like Domain of Anguish all were a waste of time as there was no really useful rewards out of running it beyond cosmetic appeal. Point blank period.

Doesn’t mean people didn’t like it, as is evidenced by how many people want something like that back. (And I sort of liked it, but after realizing there wasn’t enough in there to really appeal, I stuck to other stuff.)

Unfortunately, people in this game don’t want tough and difficult content to be more rewarding than casually playing…which is why I don’t think we will see a change in the reward infrastructure…

I’d say you’re wrong, this topic pretty much shows there’s people who want hard content to be rewarding. I mean, that’s where it started, right?

Now if we could only actually find a reward infrastructure/type we could agree on adding.

Scientia.8924:

This is the opposite of GW1, where leveling up was long and boring to me, but at least half the story is experienced while at max level.

Not in Prophecies. Half the story was impossible to figure out what was going on until you hit max level, perhaps, but that’s because the story pacing was a mess. Factions catapulted you into level 20 on the ‘tutorial island’ of Shing Jea, and Nightfall was close behind.

Honestly, I want to see what ANet could come up with if they just nixed levels all together and found a different progression scheme. Apparently they tried it in GW2 and the testers hated it.

but tobias, is it the player job to build the reward infrastructure?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Now if we could only actually find a reward infrastructure/type we could agree on adding.

Thats the problem , anets going to side with whats good for the majority of whats left of this community, which is mostly casuals….

I would love nothing more than anet coming up with some reward infrastructure changes , but if they decide that more difficult content gets the better rewards, it will cause a massive outcry from this casual fanbase, hence it will never happen IMO….

bhcbose.9615:

but tobias, is it the player job to build the reward infrastructure?

But bhcbose, the community seems dead set on doing the game design for the developers and saying how wrong they are to develop a game in a certain way, so why shouldn’t they just keep right on going and do the rest of the work for them?

Sarcasm aside, if you’re going to start saying the design is bad and not offer up reasonable alternatives, or at least unpacking exactly why it’s bad rather than just “it’s bad because I don’t like it”, then you’re not helping.

Of course, then you have the other half of this:

SkiTz.4590:

Thats the problem , anets going to side with whats good for the majority of whats left of this community, which is mostly casuals….

I would love nothing more than anet coming up with some reward infrastructure changes , but if they decide that more difficult content gets the better rewards, it will cause a massive outcry from this casual fanbase, hence it will never happen IMO….

. . . who basically take the path of “I’m going to complain long, loud, and continuously about this, but then assume it’s never going to happen”. That’s also not helping.

Come on, people, meet halfway, make an effort to show you really mean this rather than just spouting rhetoric about endgame being terrible. I’m not against there being “endgame” like there was in GW1 but you’ve got to overcome how meaningless it was then and would be now.

But then it comes down to the following:

Should I take more than hours to write down the ideal end game and reward that comes with it with the hope that a Dev reads it and acknowledges it?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Come on, people, meet halfway, make an effort to show you really mean this rather than just spouting rhetoric about endgame being terrible. I’m not against there being “endgame” like there was in GW1 but you’ve got to overcome how meaningless it was then and would be now.

Whats your suggestions for endgame than?

Funny you saying meaningless gw1. Because thats how a lot of my guildies descibe the current rewarding system in gw2. Of course this is all just opinion but it doesn’t change the fact this reward system does need some re tooling.

“There is nothing forcing you to buy through the cash store.”
Yet the game is heavily negatively influenced by the fact that Anet tries to get you to buy stuff of there. But you are correct, you are not forced to buy anything.

I found at least dungeon rewards in Guild Wars 1 to be meaningless, even in hard mode. Do a hard mode dungeon get a couple of gold items you could sell as unided golds, always hoping for their rare drop.

I wanted a frog scepter. I ran bogroot growths more than dozens of times. Probably closer to hundreds. Never saw hide nor hair of a frog scepter.

Most of the rewards I got from that dungeon were pretty much worthless.

And if you weren’t solo farming the Underworld to get ectos, and played it with a full party, your chances of getting one weren’t that good.

The time spent to get set up and get through stuff was a lot longer and if you wiped you had to go in again. You didn’t get a gold for doing a 12 minute dungeon run in Guild Wars 1, you paid a platinum to enter FoW or the Underworld, and if you wiped you were kicked.

To some people that’s just more rewarding I guess.

Then there were the lockpicks to open chests to get a purple or a yellow and break the lockpick.

Those who say Guild Wars 1 was more rewarding must have been playing a different game than I.

Vayne.8563:

I found at least dungeon rewards in Guild Wars 1 to be meaningless, even in hard mode. Do a hard mode dungeon get a couple of gold items you could sell as unided golds, always hoping for their rare drop.

I wanted a frog scepter. I ran bogroot growths more than dozens of times. Probably closer to hundreds. Never saw hide nor hair of a frog scepter.

Most of the rewards I got from that dungeon were pretty much worthless.

And if you weren’t solo farming the Underworld to get ectos, and played it with a full party, your chances of getting one weren’t that good.

The time spent to get set up and get through stuff was a lot longer and if you wiped you had to go in again. You didn’t get a gold for doing a 12 minute dungeon run in Guild Wars 1, you paid a platinum to enter FoW or the Underworld, and if you wiped you were kicked.

To some people that’s just more rewarding I guess.

Then there were the lockpicks to open chests to get a purple or a yellow and break the lockpick.

Those who say Guild Wars 1 was more rewarding must have been playing a different game than I.

Its the same rose-colored glasses people put on when they talk about WvW compared to DaoC, they tend to gloss over the horrible balance and tedium and just remember the good times they had. I bet if you could go back to those forums from the time people were running them they would look at lot like these forums today, people saying Ultima Online was THE BEST GAME EVER and how DaoC had so many problems and was unrewarding/casual, etc. etc.

I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.

SkiTz.4590:

Im Mudbone.1437:

This game isn’t about what we get in-game for our effort it’s about how many wallets can be forced open for the gem-store crap.

Pretty much

The reward system in GW2 is flat out bad, point blank period
Yea it was the fastest selling MMO, but guess how many players quit after <6months?
Its been a dwindling playerbase, which is why the megaserver was in brought into place
The vast amount of dead maps with 1-2 players in most servers just casually leveling an alt or something

And the biggest reason for such a downfall is because the reward infrastructure is bad.
The toughest component of making a legendary(precursor) is 100% based on RNG. Thats pure lazy reward design.

Unfortunately, people in this game don’t want tough and difficult content to be more rewarding than casually playing…which is why I don’t think we will see a change in the reward infrastructure…

GW2 may have been the fastest selling ONLY BECAUSE of the bait and switch campaign called “The Manifesto” that was ran during GW1.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

No I dont think the devs looked at it and decided it would be hard to implement I think they looked at it and decided it doesnt attract enough people because lets face it you could play Gw1 casually and enjoy FoW, UW and DoA, you needed some commitment to play said content. Where they wrong? Well numbers dont think so because player activity is much larger in Gw2 then it ever was in the original GW.

You really think the game sold better because they did not focus on these sort of elements? Well then you are plain wrong. GW1 was new game and then created a name for itself. However it was not a real open world and so less attractive to many people.

When GW2 came it had a big name and was a real MMO. They also made much more publicity for it. Basically it’s a bigger franchise that’s why it has more players. Not because of anything like what you suggest. That is even stuff people don’t know untill they play it.

How can you tell? Also how can Gw2 have a bigger name then Gw1 when thats where its name comes from? You could potentially argue now it has a bigger name but at launch?

In anycase we’re not talking about how many people bought gw2 compared to gw1, we’re talking about how many people play gw2 compared to gw1 . Obviously its not one factor and I never claimed it was any one factor anyway. Buy saying Anet made all the wrong choice when transitioning gw1 to gw2 is obviously not true because gw2 has been a lot more successful for them.

More Money for advertising, better graphics, a trully open world… will get more people to buy and lay the game. still…

Does Not mean Anet made the correct choices to provide a More fun experience.

This game is More of a cash cow for NCSoft than Guild Wars was..in THIS game…the player is directed more to the gem store.

Guild wars was monetized by selling Boxes and expansions, and I recently found out they also had a cash shop…. i found out after reading GW2, on GW2’s forums.

GW2, is Monetized heavilly by gem store purchases, and while one can wish that the reasons game design decisions were made to provide a better game, for some reason, in my opinion… they failed.

What they did come up with was a game that makes Money for anet left asnd right..the TP, and gem store are center stage, and the game is beginning to feel like a tacked on afterthought… something for players to do between gem store purchases.

I LOVE gw2’s gameplay… it’s economy, and gem store… that is something else entirely.

From a PvE perspective Fractals are what you’re looking for. Also, I’ve always had fun trying to finish group events solo to see if I can do it. That said, I would really appreciate some crazy tough dungeons that can’t be cheesed. Arena.net had a great idea with the world events but they can’t be considered a replacement to traditional focused end game raid game-play. Guild Wars 2 will need both to flourish in my opinion.

SkiTz.4590:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Come on, people, meet halfway, make an effort to show you really mean this rather than just spouting rhetoric about endgame being terrible. I’m not against there being “endgame” like there was in GW1 but you’ve got to overcome how meaningless it was then and would be now.

Whats your suggestions for endgame than?

Why should I bother making one? I am, to admit it, a “filthy casual”. Endgame I’d propose wouldn’t be as good as others’ suggestions. But I did make a stab at something up thread. Do you need me to find it for you?

Link

It’s something I ran once for people as part of a D&D Miniatures event just for giggles. I’d probably take a stab at something described there, tweak it a few times with some people who would be interested if such a project was possible, and slap that on as a permanent addition. Maybe even tie it to the Mursaat as a neat lore bonus.

Funny you saying meaningless gw1. Because thats how a lot of my guildies descibe the current rewarding system in gw2. Of course this is all just opinion but it doesn’t change the fact this reward system does need some re tooling.

It was meaningless. UW, FoW had some meaning to it only in getting Obsidian Armor or other cool skins (and the armor was gods-be-darned ugly), but it at least was moderately fun to mix up some of the area quests in UW. Fissure was okay, though it wore on me real quick. But still, the rewards were skins.

Domain? Totally pointless. The only rewards were things which were cosmetic and bragging rights. The potential rewards were skins, a minipet, and some shinies to display in the Hall..

Go ahead and say how meaningless GW2’s cosmetic endgame is, but that was the same endgame we got in GW1. Up to and including sales in trade channels of the loot for profit like the TP does now.

The sole difference is instead of having to go to a gold seller, you can go to ANet for Gems.