END THE THREAD! KILL IT!
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Still waiting for end game content
I don’t see the point of ending this thread since it has some nice discussion going on and it has been relatively on topic since the beginning.
Honestly I think that if Anet will one day implement new zones that are strictly level 80 they should really think about bringing the challenge and the rewards that comes with it.
As for high level dungeon, right now I can hope to see one day new dungeons and more fractal levels with new rewards
Honestly I think that if Anet will one day implement new zones that are strictly level 80 they should really think about bringing the challenge and the rewards that comes with it.
As for high level dungeon, right now I can hope to see one day new dungeons and more fractal levels with new rewards
We do agree, believe it or not. Mostly. (I’d like the new zones to allow people lower-leveled if they want to jump in and upscale, because it’d just add more challenge to it.)
The first problem we do run into is the rewards. I don’t expect much different rewards than what were given in the GW1 “elite dungeons” – recognition via title, some exclusive-to-area skins of armor/weapons, high-tier crafting materials, and tons of vendor trash. And from what all the people who want “endgame-level rewards” have been saying . . . that’s not quite going to cut it.
The second problem is more . . . a case of “after the honeymoon”. After this new area’s novelty has worn off and there’s people who can run it in their sleep, how much do you want to bet it won’t be farmed into “just another farming binge spot”? Follow-up concern: what do you want to think will be the response if it can’t be easily farmed, such as limited attempts per day or it occurs at a schedule daily (say, every three hours)?
Much as I’d like to see any of this come to pass . . . I think no matter what they’d do, half the people who are here demanding “endgame content” will be back going “this isn’t what we wanted/this isn’t good enough”.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
I Will repeat my question again. where is my high level end game rewarding content
I will add that i am not talking about wow raid like stuff (never played wow fyi, only played gw1 since its begining)
I will also add that i am not talking about a gear grind.
Just to make thing clear and to make people understand that what i am looking for is something instanced to do with other player that is harder than fractal or arah. Something that you have to practice over and over again for awesome rewards. Ever heard of DOA in gw1? (Thats where your tormented skin come from fyi)
It’d be hard for all of a week, but people would figure out how to do it, start farming it and then you’d be back to whining on the forums about how easy it is.
And once everyone was farming it and running around with the same rewards you’d be complaining how it’s not rewarding.
Yeah .. just look for example on the initial price of the Tequatl Mini and where it is now :
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/47846Either drop-rates are really low, then nearly nobody plays the content like New Twighlight Arbor Path, and those Items are still expensive, or the things drop more often so everyone plays it and then prices go down, just like all the Champion Weapons.
So you think the drop-rates are different? I don’t know the drop-rates but I think (and it would make sense) that drop-rates are the same for those two cases. However many people are ‘grinding’ the same content for gold. Mainly Champions and World-bosses. That’s why in total still many people get the Tequatl mini to drop and so the TP overflows with the mini lowering the price. That dungeon path is not part of the content people farm a lot so the prices stay high even with similar drop rates. It really proof what I am saying if drop-rates are the same. In fact when you would higher the price so it becomes more obtainable for people the prices might still stay lower as the Tequatl mini simply because it does not get farmed that much.
All i wanted to say is, that the Twighlight Path in theory must be exactly what some people always want .. the challenge with high rewards. But .. since the reward drops not every now and then they don’t play that content.
But if now ANet would make the droprate higher everyone now plays that content suddenly and the market will be flooded with those items, so prices go down and suddenly its no longer “rewarding”.
In the end .. whatever they do .. its wrong.
It’s not reasonable to expect us to " settle" for " whatever the devs can come up with" because " whatever they do we yell at them for " or " that’s hard."
THEY draw a salary from this. THEY are professionals.
If they were Cousing George…. and he just showed us a game he developed working in his basement, I could understand letting him off the hook for this product.
We should demand more from them. Balancing the game so drops are both rewarding and NOT Impossible to attain in a reasonable amount of time, is the reason they draw a check.
Other game companies do it … why is it that we don’t expect it from Anet?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I found at least dungeon rewards in Guild Wars 1 to be meaningless, even in hard mode. Do a hard mode dungeon get a couple of gold items you could sell as unided golds, always hoping for their rare drop.
I wanted a frog scepter. I ran bogroot growths more than dozens of times. Probably closer to hundreds. Never saw hide nor hair of a frog scepter.
Most of the rewards I got from that dungeon were pretty much worthless.
And if you weren’t solo farming the Underworld to get ectos, and played it with a full party, your chances of getting one weren’t that good.
The time spent to get set up and get through stuff was a lot longer and if you wiped you had to go in again. You didn’t get a gold for doing a 12 minute dungeon run in Guild Wars 1, you paid a platinum to enter FoW or the Underworld, and if you wiped you were kicked.
To some people that’s just more rewarding I guess.
Then there were the lockpicks to open chests to get a purple or a yellow and break the lockpick.
Those who say Guild Wars 1 was more rewarding must have been playing a different game than I.
The drop chances of EotN dungeon weapons were actually pretty decent. I saw a lot of them drop. A friend of mine even got double Froggy drops at least 4 times, but then again, he farmed Bogroots with 4 accounts, while his buddy did the same, and they made stupendous amounts of money doing so. Upwards of 1000e/week.
As for UW and FoW requiring 1 platinum and kicking you out if you screwed up, it was something that was mainly meant to keep solo farmers at bay that would farm the first mobs in every instance and go back. Seriously though, 1 platinum wasn’t a lot of money, so paying it to enter FoW/UW wasn’t that big of a deal.
UW wasn’t very rewarding in the end, because of time taken/consumables and bad drops if you ran the wrong area. I knew people that usually lost money doing a UW run. They just kept doing it because they loved the area. They weren’t in it for the money.
DoA was very rewarding in fact, and wasn’t an RNG slot machine. You needed a maximum of 4 full HM runs, and you would have a tormented weapon. Usually it was around 3 runs, because of drops, and 4 runs would even net you an additional 5 gemsets that you could sell if you wanted, which is 1/3 of another armbrace. We calculated once that a single DoA run would net you about 70 platinum on average per run, usually going upwards of 80-90k for the people that looted after the run.
As for chest running being unrewarding, I actually made money doing dual/triple account chest runs. And it was pretty good money too, nothing compared to running DoA, but I didn’t care, since I just enjoyed chestrunning (20k+ chests over 2 accounts).
Its the same rose-colored glasses people put on when they talk about WvW compared to DaoC, they tend to gloss over the horrible balance and tedium and just remember the good times they had. I bet if you could go back to those forums from the time people were running them they would look at lot like these forums today, people saying Ultima Online was THE BEST GAME EVER and how DaoC had so many problems and was unrewarding/casual, etc. etc.
It’s really not rose-colored glasses, or at least not for me. I went back and played GW1 for a few months earlier this year due to being jaded from the Fractured patch. It was still fun to run said areas.
Not so Bright | Death and Taxes [DnT]
Balancing the game so drops are both rewarding and NOT Impossible to attain in a reasonable amount of time, is the reason they draw a check.
To be pedantic, that’s not the reason they draw a check. They draw a check because they’re actively developing and keeping the MMO we’re playing running. The first part is not a given for a company to do, even ones who make single-player games or other multi-player games.
Also, it wasn’t really ArenaNet’s strong suit in their previous creation either. (Cough, Gamer title, cough. . . )
Other game companies do it … why is it that we don’t expect it from Anet?
I honestly don’t think other game companies do it, or at least do it well for MMOs. Single player games? Sure. Some multi-player games? Possibly. MMOs? Haven’t found one which really did it ‘right’.
. . . not even MUDs.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
The drop chances of EotN dungeon weapons were actually pretty decent. I saw a lot of them drop. A friend of mine even got double Froggy drops at least 4 times, but then again, he farmed Bogroots with 4 accounts, while his buddy did the same, and they made stupendous amounts of money doing so. Upwards of 1000e/week.
Yet I never saw any ‘unique’ weapon skins drop out of Eye dungeon chests. I saw them out of the Zaishen chest, but that required me to go farm keys. And they were terrible stats, so I kept them for looks. Also “farming Bogroots with four accounts” is not a standard, usual player. Not to mention the word “farming”, which assumes he probably got more junk than good stuff.
As for UW and FoW requiring 1 platinum and kicking you out if you screwed up, it was something that was mainly meant to keep solo farmers at bay that would farm the first mobs in every instance and go back. Seriously though, 1 platinum wasn’t a lot of money, so paying it to enter FoW/UW wasn’t that big of a deal.
More annoying, early on, was the Favor requirement or Passage Scrolls. And yeah, making 1 Platinum was fairly simple once HM was introduced.
UW wasn’t very rewarding in the end, because of time taken/consumables and bad drops if you ran the wrong area. I knew people that usually lost money doing a UW run. They just kept doing it because they loved the area. They weren’t in it for the money.
I ran it because it was one of the last challenges I hadn’t actually passed. I am glad I didn’t run it for the Ecto because I rarely saw it. Or “sweet drops”. Usually I just wound up storing trophies in case Nick wanted them.
DoA was very rewarding in fact, and wasn’t an RNG slot machine. You needed a maximum of 4 full HM runs, and you would have a tormented weapon. Usually it was around 3 runs, because of drops, and 4 runs would even net you an additional 5 gemsets that you could sell if you wanted, which is 1/3 of another armbrace. We calculated once that a single DoA run would net you about 70 platinum on average per run, usually going upwards of 80-90k for the people that looted after the run.
All fine and good, but that rewarding note is only good for people who were good at running DoA and would allow people along they didn’t know. And, again, the rewards were mostly cosmetic (very nice looking, though) and the cash could be lucrative . . . but then, so could other options. As noted, platinum wasn’t exceptionally hard to earn, it ranged from “time consuming” to “you lucky son of a skritt”.
As for chest running being unrewarding, I actually made money doing dual/triple account chest runs. And it was pretty good money too, nothing compared to running DoA, but I didn’t care, since I just enjoyed chestrunning (20k+ chests over 2 accounts).
Again, dual accounts isn’t something normal players generally do. But I did make profits on chest runs once my luck rose high enough for my Lockpick retention to be roughly 50+%.
It’s really not rose-colored glasses, or at least not for me. I went back and played GW1 for a few months earlier this year due to being jaded from the Fractured patch. It was still fun to run said areas.
It’s not really rose-colored glasses, correct. Really it’s more of a distorted lens since your experience isn’t quite on par with other players’ experiences. Especially if you still ‘boxed’ two accounts.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Balancing the game so drops are both rewarding and NOT Impossible to attain in a reasonable amount of time, is the reason they draw a check.
To be pedantic, that’s not the reason they draw a check. They draw a check because they’re actively developing and keeping the MMO we’re playing running. The first part is not a given for a company to do, even ones who make single-player games or other multi-player games.
Also, it wasn’t really ArenaNet’s strong suit in their previous creation either. (Cough, Gamer title, cough. . . )
Other game companies do it … why is it that we don’t expect it from Anet?
I honestly don’t think other game companies do it, or at least do it well for MMOs. Single player games? Sure. Some multi-player games? Possibly. MMOs? Haven’t found one which really did it ‘right’.
. . . not even MUDs.
Some of us expect more for our money I guess.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
The drop chances of EotN dungeon weapons were actually pretty decent. I saw a lot of them drop. A friend of mine even got double Froggy drops at least 4 times, but then again, he farmed Bogroots with 4 accounts, while his buddy did the same, and they made stupendous amounts of money doing so. Upwards of 1000e/week.
Yet I never saw any ‘unique’ weapon skins drop out of Eye dungeon chests. I saw them out of the Zaishen chest, but that required me to go farm keys. And they were terrible stats, so I kept them for looks. Also “farming Bogroots with four accounts” is not a standard, usual player. Not to mention the word “farming”, which assumes he probably got more junk than good stuff.
As for UW and FoW requiring 1 platinum and kicking you out if you screwed up, it was something that was mainly meant to keep solo farmers at bay that would farm the first mobs in every instance and go back. Seriously though, 1 platinum wasn’t a lot of money, so paying it to enter FoW/UW wasn’t that big of a deal.
More annoying, early on, was the Favor requirement or Passage Scrolls. And yeah, making 1 Platinum was fairly simple once HM was introduced.
UW wasn’t very rewarding in the end, because of time taken/consumables and bad drops if you ran the wrong area. I knew people that usually lost money doing a UW run. They just kept doing it because they loved the area. They weren’t in it for the money.
I ran it because it was one of the last challenges I hadn’t actually passed. I am glad I didn’t run it for the Ecto because I rarely saw it. Or “sweet drops”. Usually I just wound up storing trophies in case Nick wanted them.
DoA was very rewarding in fact, and wasn’t an RNG slot machine. You needed a maximum of 4 full HM runs, and you would have a tormented weapon. Usually it was around 3 runs, because of drops, and 4 runs would even net you an additional 5 gemsets that you could sell if you wanted, which is 1/3 of another armbrace. We calculated once that a single DoA run would net you about 70 platinum on average per run, usually going upwards of 80-90k for the people that looted after the run.
All fine and good, but that rewarding note is only good for people who were good at running DoA and would allow people along they didn’t know. And, again, the rewards were mostly cosmetic (very nice looking, though) and the cash could be lucrative . . . but then, so could other options. As noted, platinum wasn’t exceptionally hard to earn, it ranged from “time consuming” to “you lucky son of a skritt”.
As for chest running being unrewarding, I actually made money doing dual/triple account chest runs. And it was pretty good money too, nothing compared to running DoA, but I didn’t care, since I just enjoyed chestrunning (20k+ chests over 2 accounts).
Again, dual accounts isn’t something normal players generally do. But I did make profits on chest runs once my luck rose high enough for my Lockpick retention to be roughly 50+%.
It’s really not rose-colored glasses, or at least not for me. I went back and played GW1 for a few months earlier this year due to being jaded from the Fractured patch. It was still fun to run said areas.
It’s not really rose-colored glasses, correct. Really it’s more of a distorted lens since your experience isn’t quite on par with other players’ experiences. Especially if you still ‘boxed’ two accounts.
You could have summarized this wall of text with one sentence.
" I don’t agree with you opinion, so let me find an excuse to discount it…..ah here it is.. you two box."
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.
The reasons why the loot system is bad in this game as compared to others, to you anyway, is because the goal of the company is to make it so you can run pretty much anywhere and still get loot. It’s an experiential game. So you can get anything doing pretty much anything. That’s the ideal for the game.
The idea that you have to do X hard content to get better rewards is against the philosophy of the game over all. If you make something so rewarding that people have to do it, then the rest of the game gets ignored.
So those who play FOR rewards are unhappy.
People like me who enjoy rewards but don’t play for them, are happier. I don’t want to have to run content X to get what I want. I want a chance to get it anywhere.
If they make certain hard content more worth it, then people will feel they have to do that content. If they make it so that rewards across the board are raised, nothing with have value and everything will be inflated.
There really are no easy answers.
I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.
The reasons why the loot system is bad in this game as compared to others, to you anyway, is because the goal of the company is to make it so you can run pretty much anywhere and still get loot. It’s an experiential game. So you can get anything doing pretty much anything. That’s the ideal for the game.
The idea that you have to do X hard content to get better rewards is against the philosophy of the game over all. If you make something so rewarding that people have to do it, then the rest of the game gets ignored.
So those who play FOR rewards are unhappy.
People like me who enjoy rewards but don’t play for them, are happier. I don’t want to have to run content X to get what I want. I want a chance to get it anywhere.
If they make certain hard content more worth it, then people will feel they have to do that content. If they make it so that rewards across the board are raised, nothing with have value and everything will be inflated.
There really are no easy answers.
\
You contradict yourself. If there are players that do not care about rewards and do not play for rewards. The fact that there is an area with more challenging content and greater rewards would be irrelevant to those " experience only " players.
Since it is Not rewards that drives them, they are not being forced to do anything they do not wish to do. They would either do it for the experience, or NOT do it, because they do not wish the experience…. or have done it, and had the experience.
make up your mind. Either there are a Lot of players that ONLY play for experience, and then they can ignore " High reward areas." or they are people that run after rewards Like a skinner box laboratory rat.
which is it?
A negative interpretation might be that the “experience” only players want the entire game to be " experience only". And if there is an area that drops rewards, that rewards gameplay they do not like, somehow the fact that others that DO… have those rewards while they don’t….
I don’t Know, seems kind of entitled to me.
But I am sure that isn’t the reason.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.
The reasons why the loot system is bad in this game as compared to others, to you anyway, is because the goal of the company is to make it so you can run pretty much anywhere and still get loot. It’s an experiential game. So you can get anything doing pretty much anything. That’s the ideal for the game.
The idea that you have to do X hard content to get better rewards is against the philosophy of the game over all. If you make something so rewarding that people have to do it, then the rest of the game gets ignored.
So those who play FOR rewards are unhappy.
People like me who enjoy rewards but don’t play for them, are happier. I don’t want to have to run content X to get what I want. I want a chance to get it anywhere.
If they make certain hard content more worth it, then people will feel they have to do that content. If they make it so that rewards across the board are raised, nothing with have value and everything will be inflated.
There really are no easy answers.
All I said was that items (unique rare loot) should be linked to specific content. I did never say (not that I disagree!) that only the hardest content should be rewarding the ‘best’ (define best?) items. It would make sense that very hard content would give you a more flashy skin then easier content but there can even be a group of easy filler mobs in the PvE world that can drop a great looking skin (so no hard content at all).
As long as specific content has specific rewards.
In addition I also said most items should just be traidable (not account-bound) so if you really do not want or are not able to do that content you would still be able to get the item. Likely harder then now because items would hold more value then they do now but it’s still possible.
What would mainly change is that not everything is so much based on currencies as now. Many items you can now only get in a reasonable way by grinding gold. That is boring imho and turning the content into a gold-grins is also boring imho.
So no I did not suggest anything that would (on a large scale) make items unreachable for people who would not like to do part of the content.
I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.
The reasons why the loot system is bad in this game as compared to others, to you anyway, is because the goal of the company is to make it so you can run pretty much anywhere and still get loot. It’s an experiential game. So you can get anything doing pretty much anything. That’s the ideal for the game.
The idea that you have to do X hard content to get better rewards is against the philosophy of the game over all. If you make something so rewarding that people have to do it, then the rest of the game gets ignored.
So those who play FOR rewards are unhappy.
People like me who enjoy rewards but don’t play for them, are happier. I don’t want to have to run content X to get what I want. I want a chance to get it anywhere.
If they make certain hard content more worth it, then people will feel they have to do that content. If they make it so that rewards across the board are raised, nothing with have value and everything will be inflated.
There really are no easy answers.
\
You contradict yourself. If there are players that do not care about rewards and do not play for rewards. The fact that there is an area with more challenging content and greater rewards would be irrelevant to those " experience only " players.
Since it is Not rewards that drives them, they are not being forced to do anything they do not wish to do. They would either do it for the experience, or NOT do it, because they do not wish the experience…. or have done it, and had the experience.
make up your mind. Either there are a Lot of players that ONLY play for experience, and then they can ignore " High reward areas." or they are people that run after rewards Like a skinner box laboratory rat.
which is it?
A negative interpretation might be that the “experience” only players want the entire game to be " experience only". And if there is an area that drops rewards, that rewards gameplay they do not like, somehow the fact that others that DO… have those rewards while they don’t….
I don’t Know, seems kind of entitled to me.
But I am sure that isn’t the reason.
I’m not contradicting myself. I’m simply explaining how human nature works. You don’t play ONLY for rewards and I don’t play ONLY for experience.
If they make something really awesome that I have to do X to get, and I want that thing, I’ll end up hating the game or not getting it. Because some rewards are nice. I don’t play FOR them but of course, I want a chance to get them. That’s the difference.
It’s why I enjoy this game as it is, and wouldn’t enjoy it if they made one type of content that much more rewarding.
I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.
The reasons why the loot system is bad in this game as compared to others, to you anyway, is because the goal of the company is to make it so you can run pretty much anywhere and still get loot. It’s an experiential game. So you can get anything doing pretty much anything. That’s the ideal for the game.
The idea that you have to do X hard content to get better rewards is against the philosophy of the game over all. If you make something so rewarding that people have to do it, then the rest of the game gets ignored.
So those who play FOR rewards are unhappy.
People like me who enjoy rewards but don’t play for them, are happier. I don’t want to have to run content X to get what I want. I want a chance to get it anywhere.
If they make certain hard content more worth it, then people will feel they have to do that content. If they make it so that rewards across the board are raised, nothing with have value and everything will be inflated.
There really are no easy answers.
\
You contradict yourself. If there are players that do not care about rewards and do not play for rewards. The fact that there is an area with more challenging content and greater rewards would be irrelevant to those " experience only " players.
Since it is Not rewards that drives them, they are not being forced to do anything they do not wish to do. They would either do it for the experience, or NOT do it, because they do not wish the experience…. or have done it, and had the experience.
make up your mind. Either there are a Lot of players that ONLY play for experience, and then they can ignore " High reward areas." or they are people that run after rewards Like a skinner box laboratory rat.
which is it?
A negative interpretation might be that the “experience” only players want the entire game to be " experience only". And if there is an area that drops rewards, that rewards gameplay they do not like, somehow the fact that others that DO… have those rewards while they don’t….
I don’t Know, seems kind of entitled to me.
But I am sure that isn’t the reason.
I’m not contradicting myself. I’m simply explaining how human nature works. You don’t play ONLY for rewards and I don’t play ONLY for experience.
If they make something really awesome that I have to do X to get, and I want that thing, I’ll end up hating the game or not getting it. Because some rewards are nice. I don’t play FOR them but of course, I want a chance to get them. That’s the difference.
It’s why I enjoy this game as it is, and wouldn’t enjoy it if they made one type of content that much more rewarding.
Cue Music:
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Now if we could only actually find a reward infrastructure/type we could agree on adding.
Thats the problem , anets going to side with whats good for the majority of whats left of this community, which is mostly casuals….
I would love nothing more than anet coming up with some reward infrastructure changes , but if they decide that more difficult content gets the better rewards, it will cause a massive outcry from this casual fanbase, hence it will never happen IMO….
I dont think the majority of the playerbase want this rewarding infrastructure probably not even those that partake from it but changing it is not as easy as 1 2 3
Farming is currently extremely profitable so in order to make hard content more profitable you either have to nerf it first (and that causes riots everytime) or else you’re going to do the new harder content more profitable then farming making an already bad problem even worst.
The only thing Anet cannot do based on their premise of game design is lock unique rewards behind harder content more profitable rewards is totally fine.
But then it comes down to the following:
Should I take more than hours to write down the ideal end game and reward that comes with it with the hope that a Dev reads it and acknowledges it?
hmm yes!
lets put it this way. Saying how bad content is takes time to and there is a lot less chance to trigger positive change then actually providing suggestions.
Considering it this way too if you will. Things can always get worst.. if all you say is I dont like this and thats enough to trigger change without direction that change might actually drive the other way you mean for it to drive.
So taking the time to explain what you want is always more productive no doubt about that!
If they fixed all paths on all dungeons and made the last boss with interesting mechanics, this game will get incredibly better.
Aetherblade path in Twilight is the perfect example of how a dungeon path should be like.
“I got a fever! And the only prescription, is more COWBELL!”
More Money for advertising, better graphics, a trully open world… will get more people to buy and lay the game. still…
Does Not mean Anet made the correct choices to provide a More fun experience.
This game is More of a cash cow for NCSoft than Guild Wars was..in THIS game…the player is directed more to the gem store.
Guild wars was monetized by selling Boxes and expansions, and I recently found out they also had a cash shop…. i found out after reading GW2, on GW2’s forums.
GW2, is Monetized heavilly by gem store purchases, and while one can wish that the reasons game design decisions were made to provide a better game, for some reason, in my opinion… they failed.
What they did come up with was a game that makes Money for anet left asnd right..the TP, and gem store are center stage, and the game is beginning to feel like a tacked on afterthought… something for players to do between gem store purchases.
I LOVE gw2’s gameplay… it’s economy, and gem store… that is something else entirely.
So wait, gw1 cash shop didnt bother you a single bit even though arguably I’d say if I had to pick up the “worst” cash shop I’d say Gw1 was worst because
1. it had content locked behind it (the bonus mission pack), Mercinary hero slots to provided you with power, skill unlock packs etc..
2. It still had the same things Gw2 has like cosmetic stuff , character expansion, storage expansion, pets etc…
So I am curious what exactly makes Gw2 cash shop so center stage when Gw1 didnt effect you so much in your own words you didnt even know it exists? Is it that in Gw2 you can own stuff in cash shop without using real money
Usual disclaimer, there is a reason why I put quotes around worst… I dont feel any of the cash shops are really truly bad. Sure I had to buy the bonus mission pack as I have to experience it all obviously but I was more then happy to pay for that.
I just dont understand how people feel Gw1 cash shop was so innocent its like it didnt even exist at all while Gw2 cash shop is like the essence of evil. They were not really that much different.
You contradict yourself. If there are players that do not care about rewards and do not play for rewards. The fact that there is an area with more challenging content and greater rewards would be irrelevant to those " experience only " players.
Since it is Not rewards that drives them, they are not being forced to do anything they do not wish to do. They would either do it for the experience, or NOT do it, because they do not wish the experience…. or have done it, and had the experience.
make up your mind. Either there are a Lot of players that ONLY play for experience, and then they can ignore " High reward areas." or they are people that run after rewards Like a skinner box laboratory rat.
which is it?
A negative interpretation might be that the “experience” only players want the entire game to be " experience only". And if there is an area that drops rewards, that rewards gameplay they do not like, somehow the fact that others that DO… have those rewards while they don’t….
I don’t Know, seems kind of entitled to me.
But I am sure that isn’t the reason.
He is not contradicting himself he is right. An MMO is a game played by a ton of different players and different players value different things. An MMO has to ultimately bring all these together in a good compromise.
When you focus on a single type of player you’re going to miss the issue entirely.
For example your statement " A negative interpretation might be that the “experience” only players want the entire game to be " experience only". And if there is an area that drops rewards, that rewards gameplay they do not like, somehow the fact that others that DO… have those rewards while they don’t….
"
shift the focus from the experience only players to the reward focused players and you get “reward focused players want the best rewards locked behind specific difficult content. They want to remove the experience focused players ability to play what they enjoy and still get access to the reward and force them to do their brand of content or miss out on the rewards entirely.” See equally bad!
Taken individually there is content everyone wants… you want challenge you can have challenge, leave the zerg and do group events in small groups or even solo. Dont ware really good armor etc.. You want good rewards? farming offers pretty good rewards right now. You want experience.. go explore, plenty of that to be had. etc.. Problems arise when you marry all of these factors together not taken individually and any solution has to consider all sides no cherry picked elements. That’s the problem
If it was an easy fix dont you think Arenanet would have done it already or do you think they have something to gain by having unsatisfied customers as well?
What is a “good compromise” that is going to please both players who want (Group 1) unique rewards found in specific, hard content; and (Group 2) rewards everyone can get regardless of skill?
Some members of both demographics scream like crazy if the other group gets a bone from the developer. Also, one desire is for exclusive rewards, the other for inclusive rewards. Heck, you can’t even please all of Group 1. If you make the exclusive drops account bound, some of them complain because they want to get rich by selling them.
If you look at GW2 rewards:
Group 1 gets:
- Fractal Weapon skins
- Ascended back pieces
- Wurm and TeQ drops
- TA:AP skins
Other world boss skins and Champion weapon skins are unique, but the content is viewed as easy.
Group 2 gets:
- Legendary items
- Ascended gear beside back piece (requires specific content to some degree, but not hard content)
- Anything sold in the shop that could have been placed as a reward for content
- Any “exclusive” items that are not account bound and which appear on the TP
Everyone can weigh these and decide for themselves which side they think is getting “more.” Since Legendaries and the Ascended chase are pretty much what GW2 offers as long-term goals, I know what I think.
More Money for advertising, better graphics, a trully open world… will get more people to buy and lay the game. still…
Does Not mean Anet made the correct choices to provide a More fun experience.
This game is More of a cash cow for NCSoft than Guild Wars was..in THIS game…the player is directed more to the gem store.
Guild wars was monetized by selling Boxes and expansions, and I recently found out they also had a cash shop…. i found out after reading GW2, on GW2’s forums.
GW2, is Monetized heavilly by gem store purchases, and while one can wish that the reasons game design decisions were made to provide a better game, for some reason, in my opinion… they failed.
What they did come up with was a game that makes Money for anet left asnd right..the TP, and gem store are center stage, and the game is beginning to feel like a tacked on afterthought… something for players to do between gem store purchases.
I LOVE gw2’s gameplay… it’s economy, and gem store… that is something else entirely.
So wait, gw1 cash shop didnt bother you a single bit even though arguably I’d say if I had to pick up the “worst” cash shop I’d say Gw1 was worst because
1. it had content locked behind it (the bonus mission pack), Mercinary hero slots to provided you with power, skill unlock packs etc..
2. It still had the same things Gw2 has like cosmetic stuff , character expansion, storage expansion, pets etc…So I am curious what exactly makes Gw2 cash shop so center stage when Gw1 didnt effect you so much in your own words you didnt even know it exists? Is it that in Gw2 you can own stuff in cash shop without using real money
Usual disclaimer, there is a reason why I put quotes around worst… I dont feel any of the cash shops are really truly bad. Sure I had to buy the bonus mission pack as I have to experience it all obviously but I was more then happy to pay for that.
I just dont understand how people feel Gw1 cash shop was so innocent its like it didnt even exist at all while Gw2 cash shop is like the essence of evil. They were not really that much different.
I think I said this In another thread. The reason Guild Wars cash shop did not bother me, was because I wasn’t aware of it, until I started playing Gw2. And found out from reading the forums in Gw2 , that Guild Wars had a cash shop.
So no… Guild Wars’ cash shop did not bug me one bit.
I was able to play through the three complete games, without ever seeing the cash shop, or being influenced by the cash shop.
The reason why Gw2’s cash shop bothers me is, that while the game gets VERY Little in terms of upgrades or fixes, every week, there is something new on the cash shop.
A lot of the sexy skins …cash shop…. weapon skins,….cash shop…
The game’s innate Gold farming is nerfed … so that people are Broke..then they remind people they can buy gems, and trade them for gold…On the cash shop.
a LOT of game content is monetized, and ability to repeatedly earn gold through farming in the Open world…. nerfed… but hey Gold is for sale for gems, and if you need gems… use the credit card.
So ya… 4 years or so of Gw1… wasn’t even aware they HAD a cash shop… but m in gw2… the cash shop actually influences design decisions.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
it is found on the TP, gemstore = end game content.
GW2 endgame is
- Flipping TP make money for no reason
- Converting your gold from TP flipping into gems
much fun in my opinion what do you want more?
Maybe more bots to make TP flipping harder lmao this game is so broken.
For those that enjoyed Underworld and Fissure of Woe.
Some want similar content placed in the game, and more like it’s original rather than a re-imagined adaptation, because it was, at the very least, done well.
I played a Paragon.
To be crystal clear, that meant I could not participate in the “challenge” of Hard Mode Fissure of Woe, and I could only dream of ever reaching Dhuum in Normal Mode. No one would play with me, I was told numerous times it is impossible to bring a Paragon, guildmates couldn’t be bothered.
The lore behind Fissure of Woe intrigued me, and the Underworld’s scenery and inhabitants were a wonder to experience.
How was their difficulty not inherently flawed?
Why was it alright to lock an entire profession out of major content?
In what way could their difficulty be implemented in Guild Wars 2 without alienating players that favor certain Traits?
What made them so good that you could ignore the problems that seemed painfully clear, as the naked sun in your eyes, to me?
For those that enjoyed Underworld and Fissure of Woe.
Some want similar content placed in the game, and more like it’s original rather than a re-imagined adaptation, because it was, at the very least, done well.I played a Paragon.
To be crystal clear, that meant I could not participate in the “challenge” of Hard Mode Fissure of Woe, and I could only dream of ever reaching Dhuum in Normal Mode. No one would play with me, I was told numerous times it is impossible to bring a Paragon, guildmates couldn’t be bothered.
The lore behind Fissure of Woe intrigued me, and the Underworld’s scenery and inhabitants were a wonder to experience.
How was their difficulty not inherently flawed?
Why was it alright to lock an entire profession out of major content?
In what way could their difficulty be implemented in Guild Wars 2 without alienating players that favor certain Traits?
What made them so good that you could ignore the problems that seemed painfully clear, as the naked sun in your eyes, to me?
I really dont think that paragon was locked out of the content by design, it was probably just due to meta and elitism. Im pretty sure every dungeon could be completed with 1 paragon in the party.
Considering it took less than 5 hours to make a new character and to max it out (level, skills, armor and weapons) and if you knew how to play (or knew how to watch basic tutorial videos on youtube and were willing to learn and listen) anyone could play both UW of FoW.
And Paragon was only locked out of speed clears, same as Necro, Ranger or Engineer is in GW2. You could still play non-meta speed clears.
I really dont think that paragon was locked out of the content by design, it was probably just due to meta and elitism. Im pretty sure every dungeon could be completed with 1 paragon in the party.
I tried, my friend and I could not get past the Four Horsemen.
Did you try it alone or did you fail to split party?
You could have summarized this wall of text with one sentence.
" I don’t agree with you opinion, so let me find an excuse to discount it…..ah here it is.. you two box."
Nah, but two-boxing is something the majority don’t do so. It also makes things much easier to handle. (I did it in EverQuest for a time – made things fantastically easier.) It’s also the lesser of two reasons I would find to discount your whole spiel.
The greater one? Your entire post about how good things were tended to focus on profit in platinum/gold. Adding a ‘fountain of gold’ hardcore players can tap is only going to make the TP go worse when trying to get desirable items off it. That’s just from having seen that sort of effect before in online games where trading is possible . . .
Anyway, feel free to keep trying to discount me. I’ve pulled my hardcore time in the past, the reward wasn’t worth it most times. When it was worth it, the goalposts would get moved in the next expansion with equipment power creep. (Gods EQ was bad at that.)
So ya… 4 years or so of Gw1… wasn’t even aware they HAD a cash shop… but m in gw2… the cash shop actually influences design decisions.
Of course it does. You can turn cash for Gems into Gems for Gold, so it has to influence decisions so Gold isn’t as high a gateway for all that much. Not to mention you can do it backwards with Gold for Gems, so most of the desirable objects on the Gem Store sit at less than 1000 Gems. And mentioning, once more, there’s not much in the Gem Store which is all that “awesome, must-have”.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
I really dont think that paragon was locked out of the content by design, it was probably just due to meta and elitism. Im pretty sure every dungeon could be completed with 1 paragon in the party.
I tried, my friend and I could not get past the Four Horsemen.
To be fair, that’s where a lot of my runs with friends/guildmates would fail too. All it took was a small slip.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
41344kittenelith.7360:You could have summarized this wall of text with one sentence.
" I don’t agree with you opinion, so let me find an excuse to discount it…..ah here it is.. you two box."
Nah, but two-boxing is something the majority don’t do so. It also makes things much easier to handle. (I did it in EverQuest for a time – made things fantastically easier.) It’s also the lesser of two reasons I would find to discount your whole spiel.
The greater one? Your entire post about how good things were tended to focus on profit in platinum/gold. Adding a ‘fountain of gold’ hardcore players can tap is only going to make the TP go worse when trying to get desirable items off it. That’s just from having seen that sort of effect before in online games where trading is possible . . .
Anyway, feel free to keep trying to discount me. I’ve pulled my hardcore time in the past, the reward wasn’t worth it most times. When it was worth it, the goalposts would get moved in the next expansion with equipment power creep. (Gods EQ was bad at that.)
So ya… 4 years or so of Gw1… wasn’t even aware they HAD a cash shop… but m in gw2… the cash shop actually influences design decisions.
Of course it does. You can turn cash for Gems into Gems for Gold, so it has to influence decisions so Gold isn’t as high a gateway for all that much. Not to mention you can do it backwards with Gold for Gems, so most of the desirable objects on the Gem Store sit at less than 1000 Gems. And mentioning, once more, there’s not much in the Gem Store which is all that “awesome, must-have”.
There is Gold in the gem store.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
When i read at least 6 teams for a LS finale i was a little shocked.
Of course if they spend so many resources for LS, there is a lack of contents not only in pve, but for WWW and Spvp too (and if anet spent more resources in spvp and www, these game sides could grow A LOT and be the true future of this game)
I think the main imbalance is here, too much resources for LS and so few for other sides of the game.
There is Gold in the gem store.
And your point is . . . what, again? Gold isn’t a “must have” either, after a point.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
So yeah, my daily thought…
Where is my high level end game rewarding content ive been waiting for so long?
Am I in the wrong game?
Yes. That’s the thing I came to accept and I started enjoying this game more. Fractals are the closest thing to it, and WvW is also pretty fun. If you’re thinking raiding, it’s just not this game. One of the best things you can do is make a character, get him to 80 and just explore the world. It’s beautiful, the events are fun. I know that’s not going to last you like raids will, but this game isn’t made for that. There’s people that have gotten thousands of hours out of this game. Truth be told, I have more hours in this game than I do in WoW. Believe me, I want this game to be a bit more traditional but it’s not going to happen. ArenaNet isn’t going to give me, and maybe you, the game we’re desiring. That doesn’t mean the game can’t be enjoyed.
That doesn’t mean the game can’t be enjoyed.
No, having an exploded RAM stick means I don’t get to enjoy it until the replacement arrives.
. . . stupid power surges . . .
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Yet I never saw any ‘unique’ weapon skins drop out of Eye dungeon chests. I saw them out of the Zaishen chest, but that required me to go farm keys. And they were terrible stats, so I kept them for looks. Also “farming Bogroots with four accounts” is not a standard, usual player. Not to mention the word “farming”, which assumes he probably got more junk than good stuff.
I’m very aware that what my friend did was far from the norm. But if you never saw a single weapon skin from the EotN dungeon chests, my guess would be you didn’t run them very often. I never got any decent skins with good stats as a drop either, but I didn’t mind as much, because I did the dungeons more for fun than for money. I wanted money, I’d run DoA. I saw a lot of people get nice drops though. If running with a full party of 8, at least once every 3-4 dungeon runs (worst case scenario here), I’d see one of the skins unique to the dungeon drop (not necessarily the expensive ones).
I ran it because it was one of the last challenges I hadn’t actually passed. I am glad I didn’t run it for the Ecto because I rarely saw it. Or “sweet drops”. Usually I just wound up storing trophies in case Nick wanted them.
Depends how you ran it. If you did it in speedclear teams, depending on what area you ran, you’d get quite some ecto’s. Pools, pits, plains, wastes, those 4 areas would drop a lot of ecto’s. If you ran vale/lab/mountain only, then yes, I’d understand you didn’t see much ecto. Or if you ran some balanced way team that cleared every area as a team, you wouldn’t see much ecto’s drop either, because it got shared over the whole party.
All fine and good, but that rewarding note is only good for people who were good at running DoA and would allow people along they didn’t know. And, again, the rewards were mostly cosmetic (very nice looking, though) and the cash could be lucrative . . . but then, so could other options. As noted, platinum wasn’t exceptionally hard to earn, it ranged from “time consuming” to “you lucky son of a skritt”.
No, the 60-80k/run in HM was regardless of clearing time. If it’d be on an hourly basis, with back-to-back runs, it would be 120-160k/hour for experienced guilds, 80-106k/hour for mediocre guilds, and 72-96k/hour for bad guilds. So, it was available for anyone with the skill to clear the area. As for allowing people along, there wasn’t much to making a mesmer, getting it to the end of Nightfall, gear up appropriately, and applying to a DoA guild to learn the basics. If you wanted, you could even work your way up from the mediocre guilds to the pro’s.
I don’t get why people complain about the exclusiveness of some high-end guilds. If you don’t want to make the sacrifices they ask you to make in order to run with them, don’t expect to get the benefits of running with them.
Again, dual accounts isn’t something normal players generally do. But I did make profits on chest runs once my luck rose high enough for my Lockpick retention to be roughly 50+%.
Even with single account running, I’d still make money, I just did it with 2 accounts because I could open more chests that way.
It’s not really rose-colored glasses, correct. Really it’s more of a distorted lens since your experience isn’t quite on par with other players’ experiences. Especially if you still ‘boxed’ two accounts.
I could discard your opinion using the exact same logic. “Your opinion doesn’t count, because your experience was different from mine.” is not really a sound argument.
Not so Bright | Death and Taxes [DnT]
Yet I never saw any ‘unique’ weapon skins drop out of Eye dungeon chests. I saw them out of the Zaishen chest, but that required me to go farm keys. And they were terrible stats, so I kept them for looks. Also “farming Bogroots with four accounts” is not a standard, usual player. Not to mention the word “farming”, which assumes he probably got more junk than good stuff.
I’m very aware that what my friend did was far from the norm. But if you never saw a single weapon skin from the EotN dungeon chests, my guess would be you didn’t run them very often. I never got any decent skins with good stats as a drop either, but I didn’t mind as much, because I did the dungeons more for fun than for money. I wanted money, I’d run DoA. I saw a lot of people get nice drops though. If running with a full party of 8, at least once every 3-4 dungeon runs (worst case scenario here), I’d see one of the skins unique to the dungeon drop (not necessarily the expensive ones).
I ran it because it was one of the last challenges I hadn’t actually passed. I am glad I didn’t run it for the Ecto because I rarely saw it. Or “sweet drops”. Usually I just wound up storing trophies in case Nick wanted them.
Depends how you ran it. If you did it in speedclear teams, depending on what area you ran, you’d get quite some ecto’s. Pools, pits, plains, wastes, those 4 areas would drop a lot of ecto’s. If you ran vale/lab/mountain only, then yes, I’d understand you didn’t see much ecto. Or if you ran some balanced way team that cleared every area as a team, you wouldn’t see much ecto’s drop either, because it got shared over the whole party.
All fine and good, but that rewarding note is only good for people who were good at running DoA and would allow people along they didn’t know. And, again, the rewards were mostly cosmetic (very nice looking, though) and the cash could be lucrative . . . but then, so could other options. As noted, platinum wasn’t exceptionally hard to earn, it ranged from “time consuming” to “you lucky son of a skritt”.
No, the 60-80k/run in HM was regardless of clearing time. If it’d be on an hourly basis, with back-to-back runs, it would be 120-160k/hour for experienced guilds, 80-106k/hour for mediocre guilds, and 72-96k/hour for bad guilds. So, it was available for anyone with the skill to clear the area. As for allowing people along, there wasn’t much to making a mesmer, getting it to the end of Nightfall, gear up appropriately, and applying to a DoA guild to learn the basics. If you wanted, you could even work your way up from the mediocre guilds to the pro’s.
I don’t get why people complain about the exclusiveness of some high-end guilds. If you don’t want to make the sacrifices they ask you to make in order to run with them, don’t expect to get the benefits of running with them.
Again, dual accounts isn’t something normal players generally do. But I did make profits on chest runs once my luck rose high enough for my Lockpick retention to be roughly 50+%.
Even with single account running, I’d still make money, I just did it with 2 accounts because I could open more chests that way.
It’s not really rose-colored glasses, correct. Really it’s more of a distorted lens since your experience isn’t quite on par with other players’ experiences. Especially if you still ‘boxed’ two accounts.
I could discard your opinion using the exact same logic. “Your opinion doesn’t count, because your experience was different from mine.” is not really a sound argument.
I agree with you. Seems his opinion is, if you two boxed then your opinion is not valid, since it either is not the same experience he had, or that of most players.
Here’s the thing. That is Like saying if I walk into an IHOP, and order the pancakes… but choose to eat them two at a time, and put meltewd butter in between like a sandwich… and then say " Nope.. don’t Like them" then " hey you don’t eat them the way us normal people do… your experience doesn’t match, so your opinion doesn’t count or counts for less."
Just because someone plays the game differently, doesn’t mean their opinion can be discounted. This is typical. " I don’t like your opinion therefore I’ll discount it, I need an excuse…" Two Boxing".
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Here’s the thing. That is Like saying if I walk into an IHOP, and order the pancakes… but choose to eat them two at a time, and put meltewd butter in between like a sandwich… and then say " Nope.. don’t Like them" then " hey you don’t eat them the way us normal people do… your experience doesn’t match, so your opinion doesn’t count or counts for less."
That’s exactly the thing. And having been a server, it is frustrating to have someone come in and drop a ton of salt into their plate (before tasting it) then say it was too salty when I ask how their meal was. Should I tell the next person that dish is “perhaps salty” because of that?
Likewise, should I expect awesome rewards and gold to rain from on high based on the word of someone who played it like you did? Saying the rewards are awesome, following it with “but I had two characters at the same time, so it was doubled” sort of strikes me to wonder whether it was rewarding because you had two characters so it was double-normal, or was it really lucrative because it was initially highly so and you were doubling that?
It’s hard to tell. All I know is I never made good money doing it, semi-casually over the course of a couple months. (Which is to say, as often as I could make the time and align with people I trusted.)
Just because someone plays the game differently, doesn’t mean their opinion can be discounted. This is typical. " I don’t like your opinion therefore I’ll discount it, I need an excuse…" Two Boxing".
. . . no, I like your opinion just fine. I don’t agree with it, and my personal experience hasn’t matched. And it still didn’t address anything else I raised in my posts, namely how the exclusive rewards were . . . in the end, either farming for cool skins or gold farming through selling stuff off.
One of which has been what people really have said they want out of endgame content, because they can goldfarm elsewhere with better results. I’m still not sure how people would appreciate skins as the exclusive rewards except as a means to get more gold.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
It’s not really rose-colored glasses, correct. Really it’s more of a distorted lens since your experience isn’t quite on par with other players’ experiences. Especially if you still ‘boxed’ two accounts.
I could discard your opinion using the exact same logic. “Your opinion doesn’t count, because your experience was different from mine.” is not really a sound argument.
I didn’t say it was different from mine, so it must be wrong. What is it with putting words in my mouth for disagreeing? I said, and you even quoted it, this isn’t on par with what other players did. (Which, from memory, was devoting a lot of time learning to micro the Hero builds they had going on.)
I mean, we could also say because I spent the arduous amount of time and effort to run Prophecies with only henchmen through to the end for every mission, I shouldn’t be allowed to talk about how it was dead simple up until Thunderhead Keep? Or because I never went into GvG I don’t know anything about the “true” game of Guild Wars?
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
This discussion got really weird if you only read the first page and then the last. However, in the off chance that someone of influence reads this I second the opinion that some of us players are still waiting for “end game”. I really, really enjoy GW2, every part of it is great with the exception of it’s dramatic departure from the trinity mechanics. I’m an old school DND fan, and I like my warriors to take a hit, my mages to be glass cannons and my priests to only care about healing you. It’s familiar and lets face it, it has replay-ability.
So please, if anyone who can make a difference happens to read through, or even if the community agrees. Show us a uniquely GW2 version of the trinity and the somewhat predictable/entertaining! content that accompanies it.
This discussion got really weird if you only read the first page and then the last. However, in the off chance that someone of influence reads this I second the opinion that some of us players are still waiting for “end game”. I really, really enjoy GW2, every part of it is great with the exception of it’s dramatic departure from the trinity mechanics. I’m an old school DND fan, and I like my warriors to take a hit, my mages to be glass cannons and my priests to only care about healing you. It’s familiar and lets face it, it has replay-ability.
So please, if anyone who can make a difference happens to read through, or even if the community agrees. Show us a uniquely GW2 version of the trinity and the somewhat predictable/entertaining! content that accompanies it.
How so?
Likewise, should I expect awesome rewards and gold to rain from on high based on the word of someone who played it like you did? Saying the rewards are awesome, following it with “but I had two characters at the same time, so it was doubled” sort of strikes me to wonder whether it was rewarding because you had two characters so it was double-normal, or was it really lucrative because it was initially highly so and you were doubling that?
I never two-boxed UW/FoW/DoA/Deep/Urgoz/… I only referred to that for chest running, and my buddy who did Bogroots that way. I really don’t see how you tied the lucrativity of DoA to dual-account chest running.
It’s hard to tell. All I know is I never made good money doing it, semi-casually over the course of a couple months. (Which is to say, as often as I could make the time and align with people I trusted.)
No offense, but if you didn’t make any money doing any of the elite areas in GW1, you probably did it wrong. Although, given, you could lose money, if you kept failing, due to having to pop consets, but assuming a victorious run, any of the elite areas in GW1 would reward you at least decently.
. . . no, I like your opinion just fine. I don’t agree with it, and my personal experience hasn’t matched. And it still didn’t address anything else I raised in my posts, namely how the exclusive rewards were . . . in the end, either farming for cool skins or gold farming through selling stuff off.
In a game that has always been advertised as being a cosmetics-based game, what else do you expect from elite areas other than shiny skins and titles? There really isn’t much more such a game can offer, is there?
I didn’t address it because I don’t see it as a problem. You seem to do, there really isn’t much I can say to change your mind, nor is there anything you can say to change mine. The benefits I see in the model of being able to sell your drops are the exact downsides you see, so not much point in arguing something we won’t agree on.
One of which has been what people really have said they want out of endgame content, because they can goldfarm elsewhere with better results. I’m still not sure how people would appreciate skins as the exclusive rewards except as a means to get more gold.
The difference with gold farming elsewhere is that gold farming in open world is pretty mind numbing and easy. Call me entitled, or an elitist, but I like content that the average player can’t beat without putting effort in, or being sufficiently skilled that rewards people that actually can beat the content. That’s why I liked DoA. And even there, PUGs could still clear it by moshing their way through the area in NM spamming Destructive was Glaive.
I didn’t say it was different from mine, so it must be wrong. What is it with putting words in my mouth for disagreeing? I said, and you even quoted it, this isn’t on par with what other players did. (Which, from memory, was devoting a lot of time learning to micro the Hero builds they had going on.)
You said my view of the game was distorted because I had a different experience than you had. Calling my view distorted (in my eyes) is a way of invalidating my opinion. You can disagree with this sentiment, but that’s why I said you discarded my opinion. So I don’t really think I put words in your mouth.
Not so Bright | Death and Taxes [DnT]
part 2
I mean, we could also say because I spent the arduous amount of time and effort to run Prophecies with only henchmen through to the end for every mission, I shouldn’t be allowed to talk about how it was dead simple up until Thunderhead Keep? Or because I never went into GvG I don’t know anything about the “true” game of Guild Wars?
Prophecies was dead simple even after Thunderhead Keep, but that is, taking into account power creep and heroes. You’ll never hear me argue that prophecies was dead simple using only henchmen, because it wasn’t. Mainly because the henchmen were atrocious. So, I guess I’ll congratulate you for the effort, but you’re failing to realize why people say those things. You seem agitated that people called prophecies dead simple, while it was. It wasn’t if you put up arbitrary rules to make it more difficult, but when people say it was easy, they implicitly imply “when using heroes and meta builds”.
The same goes for when I talk about GW1 end game. When I say it was fun and rewarding, I implicitly imply “when speedclearing with an experienced team.” If you did UW with only heroes in NM without consets, it was brutally hard, mindcrushingly unforgiving and not even close to rewarding enough for the effort put in. Same in DoA. If you ran it with heroes, you’d run into a lot of trouble, and you wouldn’t be rewarded as much as elsewhere in the game.
That means that if you say “well, it was never rewarding for me, because I didn’t run it the way you did” doesn’t suddenly imply the areas weren’t rewarding. That means they weren’t rewarding if you choose to make them unrewarding by inefficient gameplay. That’s not my fault, nor Anets fault.
Not so Bright | Death and Taxes [DnT]
I am not comparing it to GW1. But I do see some much better reward-system in some other games thats for sure. Like I said, the currency grind is just boring to me.
The reasons why the loot system is bad in this game as compared to others, to you anyway, is because the goal of the company is to make it so you can run pretty much anywhere and still get loot. It’s an experiential game. So you can get anything doing pretty much anything. That’s the ideal for the game.
The idea that you have to do X hard content to get better rewards is against the philosophy of the game over all. If you make something so rewarding that people have to do it, then the rest of the game gets ignored.
So those who play FOR rewards are unhappy.
People like me who enjoy rewards but don’t play for them, are happier. I don’t want to have to run content X to get what I want. I want a chance to get it anywhere.
If they make certain hard content more worth it, then people will feel they have to do that content. If they make it so that rewards across the board are raised, nothing with have value and everything will be inflated.
There really are no easy answers.
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You contradict yourself. If there are players that do not care about rewards and do not play for rewards. The fact that there is an area with more challenging content and greater rewards would be irrelevant to those " experience only " players.
Since it is Not rewards that drives them, they are not being forced to do anything they do not wish to do. They would either do it for the experience, or NOT do it, because they do not wish the experience…. or have done it, and had the experience.
make up your mind. Either there are a Lot of players that ONLY play for experience, and then they can ignore " High reward areas." or they are people that run after rewards Like a skinner box laboratory rat.
which is it?
A negative interpretation might be that the “experience” only players want the entire game to be " experience only". And if there is an area that drops rewards, that rewards gameplay they do not like, somehow the fact that others that DO… have those rewards while they don’t….
I don’t Know, seems kind of entitled to me.
But I am sure that isn’t the reason.
I’m not contradicting myself. I’m simply explaining how human nature works. You don’t play ONLY for rewards and I don’t play ONLY for experience.
If they make something really awesome that I have to do X to get, and I want that thing, I’ll end up hating the game or not getting it. Because some rewards are nice. I don’t play FOR them but of course, I want a chance to get them. That’s the difference.
It’s why I enjoy this game as it is, and wouldn’t enjoy it if they made one type of content that much more rewarding.
Ermagerd! Vayne! You’re back! Missed you. :o
This discussion got really weird if you only read the first page and then the last. However, in the off chance that someone of influence reads this I second the opinion that some of us players are still waiting for “end game”. I really, really enjoy GW2, every part of it is great with the exception of it’s dramatic departure from the trinity mechanics. I’m an old school DND fan, and I like my warriors to take a hit, my mages to be glass cannons and my priests to only care about healing you. It’s familiar and lets face it, it has replay-ability.
So please, if anyone who can make a difference happens to read through, or even if the community agrees. Show us a uniquely GW2 version of the trinity and the somewhat predictable/entertaining! content that accompanies it.
Only thing I can say about “The Holy Trinity” is. You bought the wrong game.
NO Holy Trinity was a Big part of it’s advertising and PR.
Coming to Gw2, and complaining about the lack of end game is like… Buying World of Warcracft and expecting to play all the way to 90 without paying a monthly.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
You said my view of the game was distorted because I had a different experience than you had. Calling my view distorted (in my eyes) is a way of invalidating my opinion. You can disagree with this sentiment, but that’s why I said you discarded my opinion. So I don’t really think I put words in your mouth.
He did.
Just because a player has 2 boxes doesn’t mean the percentage chance of getting good drops is any better. It just means that he is rolling more dice. Which means they also gets More crap.
Just because someone two boxes, doesn’t mean their opinion is not valid. And unfortumately, the more someone focuses on " but you were two boxing and your experience is warped." what they are REALLY saying is.." you don’t get to give your opinion, because Most people do not two box." The fact is, a LOT of people two Boxed Guild Wars. Saying" you two boxed" is not saying that something rare was being done.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
In a game that has always been advertised as being a cosmetics-based game, what else do you expect from elite areas other than shiny skins and titles? There really isn’t much more such a game can offer, is there?
I didn’t address it because I don’t see it as a problem. You seem to do, there really isn’t much I can say to change your mind, nor is there anything you can say to change mine. The benefits I see in the model of being able to sell your drops are the exact downsides you see, so not much point in arguing something we won’t agree on.
I addressed that in the first place because the OP seemed to be looking for reward, and a couple people I recall reading earlier on seemed to think merely chasing skins or gold farming wasn’t an appropriate endgame.
. . . and since I expect an appropriately lucrative endgame amount of money would draw just about everyone to the content, I would both read complaints about how it was nothing but another gold farm, and possibly how it was being forced on the players.
Hence, it’s a problem to address. Even if it’s to bury it somewhere in a fresh grave.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
And to laboriously get back on topic before I clock out of this, the few questions for others:
- If they decided to add something similar to the Elite Areas in GW1, what’s the threshold for “properly rewarding”? I think the answer on whether “just” skins and gold is okay has just been established in the last few exchanges I made (it is). Where can it be set where it’s rewarding enough, but not enough where it unbalances things in favor of those who farm it for the gain?
- Similarly, where would the challenge reside? Given that in GW1 if you wiped, you didn’t get to hit the nearest Waypoint, would something like that be accepted in GW2 as a means of increasing the difficulty? On a more technical level: should it be challenging like, say, Liadri where there is a plentiful chance to beat it but not everyone will be able to do it?
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
And to laboriously get back on topic before I clock out of this, the few questions for others:
- If they decided to add something similar to the Elite Areas in GW1, what’s the threshold for “properly rewarding”? I think the answer on whether “just” skins and gold is okay has just been established in the last few exchanges I made (it is). Where can it be set where it’s rewarding enough, but not enough where it unbalances things in favor of those who farm it for the gain?
- Similarly, where would the challenge reside? Given that in GW1 if you wiped, you didn’t get to hit the nearest Waypoint, would something like that be accepted in GW2 as a means of increasing the difficulty? On a more technical level: should it be challenging like, say, Liadri where there is a plentiful chance to beat it but not everyone will be able to do it?
To answer your question,
New features and reward for a new elite area
1. New Armor that is craftable with materials (and tokens) that are looted in the area (this armor must be an high end armor)
2. New weapons that can only be looted from either the end chest or all elite boss found in the elite area
3. For the completion of the dungeon, receive a certain amount of gold and token
4. The token looted in the dungeon can be used towards elite recipes, elite tonics, ascended material, obsidian shard, new buff (only usable in that area) etc
5. The token can also be used for a unique backpack
Difficulty and Challenge
1. Hard as was DoA for Gw1
That means that if you say “well, it was never rewarding for me, because I didn’t run it the way you did” doesn’t suddenly imply the areas weren’t rewarding. That means they weren’t rewarding if you choose to make them unrewarding by inefficient gameplay. That’s not my fault, nor Anets fault.
This point is worth repeating in my opinion. Choosing to not pursue the rewards does not make something unrewarding.
That said, a game marketed at casuals might want to make casual play rewarding. I am not speaking of making everything achievable without effort and skill, but rather tiered degrees of challenge and reward so that everyone can feel as if they are getting something for their effort. I believe that some people will even progress through those tiers as they are exposed to the possibility of greater challenge matched by greater reward.