Guild Wars 2

Sinoran.9140:

critickitten.1498:

darkace.8925:

Not because I have to. Because I want to. Because I enjoy doing so. The moment…the exact millisecond gearing my characters ceases to be fun is the exact millisecond I’ll stop bothering.

Okay, fair enough.

Now consider that, like you, there are others out there who want to obtain the best gear they can.

Would you like to explain why they should have to submit themselves to a boring grind for it? Why the pursuit of the best gear can’t be both challenging and enjoyable?

People begged and pleaded for a gear grind in this game. Ascended is for those people.

Exotics are there for the people who don’t want to grind for their gear.

If you want Ascended then you’ll just have to grind for it like everyone else who wants it.

Would you prefer paying $15 a month to have one attempt a week at a boss that may not even drop your desired gear piece, which you still have to win the /roll against other players in the group? Or, play freely with a guarantee based on time, on when you get your BiS gear without the influence of RNG?

If those kinds of gates weren’t there, we would be back at square one, people complaining that BiS gear is too easy to get (exotics). That’s just the way it is.

I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re making it sound. It doesn’t have to be “dailies or $15/mo for raids” – It can be so much more creative and innovative than that.

When people asked for gear progression, I don’t think those people ever intended it to be the way it is now. I’m sure those same people are crying “What were you thinking Anet!?” – Maybe it was bad communication between the community and Anet.

Also, as far as I know and if my memory serves me correctly, Anet said they always intended to add Ascended gear. Thus, it probably has nothing to do with people “wanting” gear progression to begin with.

It just feels like overall poor implementation. I wouldn’t mind if Ascended could be crafted or earned through other means in addition to what we have now. If Ascended stays off the Trading Post, it will never be as common as Exotics.

Right now, it’s nearly impossible to gear more than one character in Ascended. For someone like me with various 80s, you can understand how that can be frustrating.

=\ I just hope in the future they’ll be more creative.

critickitten.1498:

Would you like to explain why they should have to submit themselves to a boring grind for it? Why the pursuit of the best gear can’t be both challenging and enjoyable?

What’s your alternate? If ascended gear with it’s agony resistance is really meant for Fractals only then why not just put it there? Grind Fractals for ascended loot? No that’s boring grind. Or should you be able to walk in with one of the existing currencies, Karma/Gold and buy them all day one if you can afford it? But that requires you to play PvE or WvW a lot or “Buy to Win” converting bought Gems to gold.

critickitten.1498:

So why do you bother decking your character out in exotic gear?

Because the Temple was open, I had a pile of Karma and it was better than the level 80 blues I’ve been using (okay I had one gold from a laurel armor chest).

I don’t think Ascended is a grind, or doesn’t force you to grind for it.

Granted, getting ascended is harder than exotics, but that doesn’t mean it has to be a grind. The way I see it, you get your neck ascended through Laurels from Daily and Monthly. You can get your rings through FoTM or Laurels. And I think there was something from Guild Missions too, but I have to check on that. But you don’t have to “grind” to get your rings in FoTM. Just do one or two levels a day, and you’ll progress through levels 1-20 at a decent pace, without really grinding.

kenshinakh.3672:

I don’t think Ascended is a grind, or doesn’t force you to grind for it.

Granted, getting ascended is harder than exotics, but that doesn’t mean it has to be a grind. The way I see it, you get your neck ascended through Laurels from Daily and Monthly. You can get your rings through FoTM or Laurels. And I think there was something from Guild Missions too, but I have to check on that. But you don’t have to “grind” to get your rings in FoTM. Just do one or two levels a day, and you’ll progress through levels 1-20 at a decent pace, without really grinding.

What happens when someone took a break from the game a day before laurels were added. And then comes back in 2 months? They will be behind everyone else and unable to catch up, because there is a time gate in front of them. That is a time-based grind, no matter how you want to spin it.

Nurse.1085:

Sinoran.9140:

critickitten.1498:

darkace.8925:

Not because I have to. Because I want to. Because I enjoy doing so. The moment…the exact millisecond gearing my characters ceases to be fun is the exact millisecond I’ll stop bothering.

Okay, fair enough.

Now consider that, like you, there are others out there who want to obtain the best gear they can.

Would you like to explain why they should have to submit themselves to a boring grind for it? Why the pursuit of the best gear can’t be both challenging and enjoyable?

People begged and pleaded for a gear grind in this game. Ascended is for those people.

Exotics are there for the people who don’t want to grind for their gear.

If you want Ascended then you’ll just have to grind for it like everyone else who wants it.

Would you prefer paying $15 a month to have one attempt a week at a boss that may not even drop your desired gear piece, which you still have to win the /roll against other players in the group? Or, play freely with a guarantee based on time, on when you get your BiS gear without the influence of RNG?

If those kinds of gates weren’t there, we would be back at square one, people complaining that BiS gear is too easy to get (exotics). That’s just the way it is.

I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re making it sound. It doesn’t have to be “dailies or $15/mo for raids” – It can be so much more creative and innovative than that.

When people asked for gear progression, I don’t think those people ever intended it to be the way it is now. I’m sure those same people are crying “What were you thinking Anet!?” – Maybe it was bad communication between the community and Anet.

Also, as far as I know and if my memory serves me correctly, Anet said they always intended to add Ascended gear. Thus, it probably has nothing to do with people “wanting” gear progression to begin with.

It just feels like overall poor implementation. I wouldn’t mind if Ascended could be crafted or earned through other means in addition to what we have now. If Ascended stays off the Trading Post, it will never be as common as Exotics.

Right now, it’s nearly impossible to gear more than one character in Ascended. For someone like me with various 80s, you can understand how that can be frustrating.

=\ I just hope in the future they’ll be more creative.

Why do you have to gear up multiple alts in ascended? Are exotics not enough? Unless you’re running high level fractals on them all.

I have multiple 80s as well (all decked out in exotics), but when exotics get the job done (the game was designed with exotics being BiS), I don’t feel the need to get better gear when it isn’t required.

You want innovative implementation, but say ascended should be able to be crafted and sold on the TP. How is that innovative?

Current Methods of obtaining Ascended:
FotM Ring drops/pristine relics
Guild Mission rewards
Laurels
Mystic Forge.

Methods not in use:
RNG drops off Dungeon Bosses/World Bosses
Straight up buy them with gold
Crafting
Earnable through Special Achievements
Dungeon Token rewards
Dungeon Chests
JP chests
WvW Honor Badge rewards
RNG drop off of normal, vet, and champ mobs

They could add in all of these methods, but these have all been done in other MMOs, so they’re not new.

If my memory serves me correctly, A.net has said they will be adding more methods to obtain ascended gear. Perhaps you should wait for those updates.

My point still stands that Ascended is optional.

If you feel you HAVE to get ascended gear, that is your problem, not A.nets.

vespers.1759:

darkace.8925:

vespers.1759:

FRACTALS. are you blind? this was mentioned at least 20 times (and you said it yourself several times)

Okay, then answer me this. If ascended gear is required to complete Fractals, and if ascended gear was originally obtained only in Fractals, then how did anyone ever manage to get ascended gear in the first place. You’ve created for yourself a Catch 22 that doesn’t exist.

alright i’m done. i’ve actually lost IQ points reading this.

Not possible.

Sinoran.9140:

Nurse.1085:

Sinoran.9140:

critickitten.1498:

darkace.8925:

.

SNIP

I have multiple 80s because I enjoy playing multiple characters. I don’t have just “one main”, at the very least I have 2 classes I like to consider my mains and the other classes I play on the side. However, this is a dilemma for me because I’m being forced to choose one character (I want to progress with) and commit to that character. No matter how you try to spin it, Ascended is not for people with multiple 80s. I don’t think asking for a realistic goal to get Ascended on 2 character’s is such a high expectation.

I don’t know if you misread what I said, but I said NOT to add Ascended on the TP. I also said Anet should think of more fun and innovative ways to purchase Ascended. An example of adding them to crafting was a bare minimal suggestion and in no way shape or form meant to be an idea that would be considered “innovative.” I’ll leave the creative thinking to Anet. Let’s hope they start doing exactly that.

Exotics get the job done in most PVE scenarios. In fact, wearing Greens will get the job done. However when it comes to World vs. World, it’s always smart to max out your stats to the best of your character’s potential. In this case, the option is Ascended.

Daily’s would feel truly optional if there were multiple ways of obtaining Ascended. Until then, dailies is the only road you can take for max stats.

the game was designed with exotics being BiS

In addition, the gap between Exotics and Ascended will keep growing every time they release more Ascended. When new content releases (Expansions for example), which stats will they be made for? Exotics or Ascended?

And for the record, it is Anets problem. They are the “gate keepers” to this gated content. It’s not just about players like me either, returning and new players will also feel intimidated by Ascended’s time “requirements.” Or simply people who enjoy playing multiple specs.

Regardless, I hope you’re right about one thing. I hope when they add “more ways of obtaining Ascended” it’s not just more Dailies / gated time sinks. I will wait patiently because if I learned anything from playing a Ranger/Necro for 7 months, it’s how to be patient.

vespers.1759:

darkace.8925:

vespers.1759:

FRACTALS. are you blind? this was mentioned at least 20 times (and you said it yourself several times)

Okay, then answer me this. If ascended gear is required to complete Fractals, and if ascended gear was originally obtained only in Fractals, then how did anyone ever manage to get ascended gear in the first place. You’ve created for yourself a Catch 22 that doesn’t exist.

alright i’m done. i’ve actually lost IQ points reading this.

Ad hominem. “Why answer the question when the answer destroys my very argument when I can just insult him instead?”

sostronk.8167:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

etiolate.9185:

I don’t buy into that. I feel the trend is moving far more towards horizontal than vertical progression. TF2 very active and the biggest online gaming phenomenas are MOBAs based around easy to attain progression and longevity established through the gameplay and variety of choices rather than power levels.

Yes, but I’m turned away from TF2 because I am an active liability to every team for not being quick enough to do much. Much the same on MOBAs such as League; I am nowhere near good enough to play League.

Purely skill-based games suffer from not being inclusive, despite giving people “leveled playing fields”. It still cannot be as bad as poker, which is also almost purely skill-based and claims a lot of unsuspecting players every year.

League has COOP vs AI. It caters to everyone. Even if your bad and want to play PvP, you can play solo and your ranking will drop you into a skill bracket you belong in, which uses a rating system similar to ELO.

I know about League. My brother plays it a lot and is climbing his way into Gold Bracket 5 (I think it’s the lowest one) tonight. I know enough about the play to know I cannot realistically play this game. I am too disadvantaged by my inability to micro or keep adequate map awareness.

It doesn’t cater to everyone. It caters to the elite and the skilled but allows everyone else to play kitten little matches to satisfy their desire to be “in” on the popular game. It caters to the people who take it way too seriously and spend hours daily honing their skills. The progression of the game is unsuitable for casual players, who will always be stuck at the bottom so the elite can stay on top easier.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying players who don’t put much time and effort into developing skill should be on top of a ladder or what? Im completely confused with your thoughts. I run into alot of casuals who play League. Its one of the most popular games in the world for a reason. Casuals play COOP vs AI and they enjoy it and there is constantly content (heros) coming out that offer new gameplay (all of which is free unlike GW2). Its seems like your hung up on your brothers gameplay and feel you have to play the game the way he does.

Jrunyon.3012:

They have already said they are going to be adding new ways to obtain them.

How about you just be patient, and maybe even realize that ascended stuff isn’t the end game, its an optional path to take in gearing up your character.

Stop it with this argument!

Getting stats isn’t opotional skins are!

This is illogical, unvalid and unsound.

@op

You’ve actually made a post that is calm, clear and focused.
I agree with you 100% and yes this is what my problem is too. You can’t call Gw2 an improvment over the original Guild Wars why? Since it breaks so many things Guild Wars did right. Such as: Gear grind, skins, cosmemtics in general, challenging content.

Sinoran.9140:

Nurse.1085:

Sinoran.9140:

critickitten.1498:

darkace.8925:

Not because I have to. Because I want to. Because I enjoy doing so. The moment…the exact millisecond gearing my characters ceases to be fun is the exact millisecond I’ll stop bothering.

Okay, fair enough.

Now consider that, like you, there are others out there who want to obtain the best gear they can.

Would you like to explain why they should have to submit themselves to a boring grind for it? Why the pursuit of the best gear can’t be both challenging and enjoyable?

People begged and pleaded for a gear grind in this game. Ascended is for those people.

Exotics are there for the people who don’t want to grind for their gear.

If you want Ascended then you’ll just have to grind for it like everyone else who wants it.

Would you prefer paying $15 a month to have one attempt a week at a boss that may not even drop your desired gear piece, which you still have to win the /roll against other players in the group? Or, play freely with a guarantee based on time, on when you get your BiS gear without the influence of RNG?

If those kinds of gates weren’t there, we would be back at square one, people complaining that BiS gear is too easy to get (exotics). That’s just the way it is.

I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re making it sound. It doesn’t have to be “dailies or $15/mo for raids” – It can be so much more creative and innovative than that.

When people asked for gear progression, I don’t think those people ever intended it to be the way it is now. I’m sure those same people are crying “What were you thinking Anet!?” – Maybe it was bad communication between the community and Anet.

Also, as far as I know and if my memory serves me correctly, Anet said they always intended to add Ascended gear. Thus, it probably has nothing to do with people “wanting” gear progression to begin with.

It just feels like overall poor implementation. I wouldn’t mind if Ascended could be crafted or earned through other means in addition to what we have now. If Ascended stays off the Trading Post, it will never be as common as Exotics.

Right now, it’s nearly impossible to gear more than one character in Ascended. For someone like me with various 80s, you can understand how that can be frustrating.

=\ I just hope in the future they’ll be more creative.

Why do you have to gear up multiple alts in ascended? Are exotics not enough? Unless you’re running high level fractals on them all.

I have multiple 80s as well (all decked out in exotics), but when exotics get the job done (the game was designed with exotics being BiS), I don’t feel the need to get better gear when it isn’t required.

You want innovative implementation, but say ascended should be able to be crafted and sold on the TP. How is that innovative?

Current Methods of obtaining Ascended:
FotM Ring drops/pristine relics
Guild Mission rewards
Laurels
Mystic Forge.

Methods not in use:
RNG drops off Dungeon Bosses/World Bosses
Straight up buy them with gold
Crafting
Earnable through Special Achievements
Dungeon Token rewards
Dungeon Chests
JP chests
WvW Honor Badge rewards
RNG drop off of normal, vet, and champ mobs

They could add in all of these methods, but these have all been done in other MMOs, so they’re not new.

If my memory serves me correctly, A.net has said they will be adding more methods to obtain ascended gear. Perhaps you should wait for those updates.

My point still stands that Ascended is optional.

If you feel you HAVE to get ascended gear, that is your problem, not A.nets.

Lets be clear. Stats are not optional. Skins are!

Yeah they’ve said they’ll add new ways but when? In the novemeber release which was a disastor on so many levels they still haven’t fixed it much. Dailies are great but seriously 2 months for 2 items. Really? I thought you’re suppose to spend 1000s of hours on skins! not Stats!!!

I can appreciate you like grindy content. I do but Guild Wars 2 was marketed towards people that don’t. That want a change. That want somthing different.

Please keep that in mind before bashing someone’s post.

And on the side note your in the minority right now. Keep that in mind too.

Guild Wars 2 is a vast improvement over Guild Wars. Why? It fixes so many things Guild Wars did wrong; such as stagnant gear progression and a lack of end-game.

Revolution.6301:

You can’t call Gw2 an improvment over the original Guild Wars

Too late…I just did.

sostronk.8167:

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Are you saying players who don’t put much time and effort into developing skill should be on top of a ladder or what? Im completely confused with your thoughts. I run into alot of casuals who play League. Its one of the most popular games in the world for a reason. Casuals play COOP vs AI and they enjoy it and there is constantly content (heros) coming out that offer new gameplay (all of which is free unlike GW2). Its seems like your hung up on your brothers gameplay and feel you have to play the game the way he does.

Not quite. I rambled quite a bit, but my point is that “cooperative versus AI” isn’t really playing the game. Stepping out of that box will be nothing but pain and tears for me, so really that’s the only option.

darkace.8925:

Guild Wars 2 is a vast improvement over Guild Wars. Why? It fixes so many things Guild Wars did wrong; such as stagnant gear progression and a lack of end-game.

Revolution.6301:

You can’t call Gw2 an improvment over the original Guild Wars

Too late…I just did.

Guild Wars had a fantastic endgame.

If it didn’t why weren’t people complaining about it? Why wasn’t there a Guild Wars 2 November drama about it? Why did people actually thank Anet for such a wonderful endgame?

Don’t bash Guild Wars if you didn’t play it. And if you did well it did quite well for an mmo that pratically stopped updatating (as in expansions) back in 09. If it was THAT bad why was it so profitable?

Revolution.6301:

Lets be clear. Stats are not optional. Skins are!

Stats are not optional, but Best in Slot stats are. Before you try to ineffectively argue otherwise, name one thing I can’t do in this game unless I’ve got BiS stats. One thing. That’s it. Name one thing and we’ll talk. If you just pull your usual “talk circles around the issue at hand”, you might as well not even bother.

Revolution.6301:

And on the side note your in the minority right now. Keep that in mind too.

Do you have data proving which side is in the minority? No? Then upon what grounds can you make this statement? We have a phrase for baseless statements presented as facts; but seeing as it might be considered rude, I’ll refrain from repeating it here.

darkace.8925:

Guild Wars 2 is a vast improvement over Guild Wars. Why? It fixes so many things Guild Wars did wrong; such as stagnant gear progression and a lack of end-game.

Revolution.6301:

You can’t call Gw2 an improvment over the original Guild Wars

Too late…I just did.

You seem like you’d be a perfect candidate for insert any MMO ever made. You’d really enjoy it!

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument? Anet said stats would Not be what we grind for skins are. Anet said that if you going to grind for 1000s of hours it should be for an awsome skin not so you can keep up stat wise.

@Darkace and Tobias Trueflight

You both argue against me which is fine but why do you always ignore this argument? Both of you have never commented on that argument.
Is it maybe because this is what came out of Anets mouth for 4 years?

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

Lets be clear. Stats are not optional. Skins are!

Stats are not optional, but Best in Slot stats are. Before you try to ineffectively argue otherwise, name one thing I can’t do in this game unless I’ve got BiS stats. One thing. That’s it. Name one thing and we’ll talk. If you just pull your usual “talk circles around the issue at hand”, you might as well not even bother.

Revolution.6301:

And on the side note your in the minority right now. Keep that in mind too.

Do you have data proving which side is in the minority? No? Then upon what grounds can you make this statement? We have a phrase for baseless statements presented as facts; but seeing as it might be considered rude, I’ll refrain from repeating it here.

November. Remember that month? The month where there was an uproar against ascended gear? I have never read any threads that say they love it no, its always how they want it gone. Oh and in November people had so many issues against ascended gear Colin even commented on it.
Oh and btw IGN did an article this month where Colin commented again on the issue.

This is solid fact. How am I wrong? If I’m wrong break it apart piece by piece. Don’t ignore any part of my argument or I’ll call your argument unsound.

Revolution.6301:

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument?

Because it’s an opinion. I can’t argue against your opinion. I can, however, present to you the facts. The facts are that we can, but are not required to, grind for stats. Content is not gated behind a series of gear checks only passable by those with BiS gear. Until this changes, the “this game is a grind” argument is a baseless one.

Revolution.6301:

November. Remember that month? The month where there was an uproar against ascended gear? I have never read any threads that say they love it no, its always how they want it gone. Oh and in November people had so many issues against ascended gear Colin even commented on it.

So your “facts” are an anecdotal account of people complaining on an internet forum? That’s not a fact. That’s even close to a fact.

And I’ll give you a refresher, since your memory conveniently seems to be failing you. The months leading up to November saw the forums bombarded by just as many complaints about there being nothing to do (i.e. no gear towards which we can grind).

Revolution.6301:

This is solid fact. How am I wrong? If I’m wrong break it apart piece by piece. Don’t ignore any part of my argument or I’ll call your argument unsound.

I’m still waiting for “solid fact”. You’ve presented none. And you, the guy presenting forum chatter as hard evidence of the general population’s opinion, are going to call my argument unsound? That’s rich. That is rich.

Geikamir.6329:

You seem like you’d be a perfect candidate for insert any MMO ever made. You’d really enjoy it!

I think you ignored the context of my post. Read it again, carefully this time, and then get back to me. I’ll give you a hint: what you’re looking for is between the lines.

Revolution.6301:

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument? Anet said stats would Not be what we grind for skins are. Anet said that if you going to grind for 1000s of hours it should be for an awsome skin not so you can keep up stat wise.

Legendaries…

Even Anet agrees that releasing ascended was a mistake but whats done is done… At least they will keep it contained to trinkets which provide minimal stat advantage. It doesn’t take you 1000 hours to get an ascended, please stick to facts.

The fact that there are multiple ways (and more in the future) to obtain ascended actually helps less hardcore players get ascended. The OP argues against time-sinks, but all computergames are time-sinks. Having a goal to work towards is actually fun for most people. No dailies aren’t the most fun option but its the best option for casual players (because its the slowest) which is one of the group that this game caters to.

tldr:
My opinion,
time sinks = good
more options = good
ascended tier = bad

Nurse.1085:

Sinoran.9140:

Nurse.1085:

Sinoran.9140:

critickitten.1498:

darkace.8925:

.

SNIP

I have multiple 80s because I enjoy playing multiple characters. I don’t have just “one main”, at the very least I have 2 classes I like to consider my mains and the other classes I play on the side. However, this is a dilemma for me because I’m being forced to choose one character (I want to progress with) and commit to that character. No matter how you try to spin it, Ascended is not for people with multiple 80s. I don’t think asking for a realistic goal to get Ascended on 2 character’s is such a high expectation.

I don’t know if you misread what I said, but I said NOT to add Ascended on the TP. I also said Anet should think of more fun and innovative ways to purchase Ascended. An example of adding them to crafting was a bare minimal suggestion and in no way shape or form meant to be an idea that would be considered “innovative.” I’ll leave the creative thinking to Anet. Let’s hope they start doing exactly that.

Exotics get the job done in most PVE scenarios. In fact, wearing Greens will get the job done. However when it comes to World vs. World, it’s always smart to max out your stats to the best of your character’s potential. In this case, the option is Ascended.

Daily’s would feel truly optional if there were multiple ways of obtaining Ascended. Until then, dailies is the only road you can take for max stats.

the game was designed with exotics being BiS

In addition, the gap between Exotics and Ascended will keep growing every time they release more Ascended. When new content releases (Expansions for example), which stats will they be made for? Exotics or Ascended?

And for the record, it is Anets problem. They are the “gate keepers” to this gated content. It’s not just about players like me either, returning and new players will also feel intimidated by Ascended’s time “requirements.” Or simply people who enjoy playing multiple specs.

Regardless, I hope you’re right about one thing. I hope when they add “more ways of obtaining Ascended” it’s not just more Dailies / gated time sinks. I will wait patiently because if I learned anything from playing a Ranger/Necro for 7 months, it’s how to be patient.

You aren’t “forced” into anything. Ascended is optional

Perhaps I did misread the part about the TP.

So far, Ascended items have been about ~8% stronger than exotics. A full set of ascended (Weapon, armor, jewelry, back slot) will gain you about ~90 in the primary stat compared to an entire exotic set. Secondary stats are around ~ 61.

If that 90 is precision, that’s about 4.25% crit chance higher than an entire exotic set.
If that 90 is vitality, that’s about 900 health higher an entire exotic set.

If you decide to get an infusion with a stat bonus of +5 to (insert chosen stat) and fit one on every piece, you get 60 points divided among whatever stats you choose.

Assuming you have all of that, that is 272 stat points total spread across at least 3 different stats. Less than 15 trait points worth of stats.

That really isn’t going to make a big difference in a large WvW fight.

Assuming Ascended items keep coming out they way they have been with no slot to add stats in (Runes, Exquisite Jewels, Crests) then armor may not have a spot for Runes.

Obtaining the gear gains you a couple of stat points, however, not having it does not prevent you from playing any part of the game.

Calling ascended “gated content” is new. Most people complain not having ascended gates you from other content. I hardly consider some number increases as “content”.

Considering exotics work just fine, only the uninformed will be “intimidated” by the gate in front of ascended.

Why can’t multiple specs be played? They don’t require ascended gear to be played.

Here is a fact for you guys:
Every single solution to endgame progression any company tried in the last 20 years of MMOs led to complaints.

If it’s dungeon RNG = “boohoo RNG bad design”
If it’s dungeon tokens = “boohoo token grindy bad design”
If it’s daily activities =“boohoo I need to play every day bad design”
If it’s easy to get or cosmetic = “boohoo game has no endgame”
If it’s karma grind = “boohoo but I don’t like events bad design”

Name one way that would make everyone happy.
You know what? There isn’t.
People will continue to deem “forced” and “grindy” everything and the opposite of everything.

Revolution.6301:

Sinoran.9140:

Nurse.1085:

Sinoran.9140:

critickitten.1498:

darkace.8925:

Not because I have to. Because I want to. Because I enjoy doing so. The moment…the exact millisecond gearing my characters ceases to be fun is the exact millisecond I’ll stop bothering.

Okay, fair enough.

Now consider that, like you, there are others out there who want to obtain the best gear they can.

Would you like to explain why they should have to submit themselves to a boring grind for it? Why the pursuit of the best gear can’t be both challenging and enjoyable?

People begged and pleaded for a gear grind in this game. Ascended is for those people.

Exotics are there for the people who don’t want to grind for their gear.

If you want Ascended then you’ll just have to grind for it like everyone else who wants it.

Would you prefer paying $15 a month to have one attempt a week at a boss that may not even drop your desired gear piece, which you still have to win the /roll against other players in the group? Or, play freely with a guarantee based on time, on when you get your BiS gear without the influence of RNG?

If those kinds of gates weren’t there, we would be back at square one, people complaining that BiS gear is too easy to get (exotics). That’s just the way it is.

I don’t think it’s as black and white as you’re making it sound. It doesn’t have to be “dailies or $15/mo for raids” – It can be so much more creative and innovative than that.

When people asked for gear progression, I don’t think those people ever intended it to be the way it is now. I’m sure those same people are crying “What were you thinking Anet!?” – Maybe it was bad communication between the community and Anet.

Also, as far as I know and if my memory serves me correctly, Anet said they always intended to add Ascended gear. Thus, it probably has nothing to do with people “wanting” gear progression to begin with.

It just feels like overall poor implementation. I wouldn’t mind if Ascended could be crafted or earned through other means in addition to what we have now. If Ascended stays off the Trading Post, it will never be as common as Exotics.

Right now, it’s nearly impossible to gear more than one character in Ascended. For someone like me with various 80s, you can understand how that can be frustrating.

=\ I just hope in the future they’ll be more creative.

Why do you have to gear up multiple alts in ascended? Are exotics not enough? Unless you’re running high level fractals on them all.

I have multiple 80s as well (all decked out in exotics), but when exotics get the job done (the game was designed with exotics being BiS), I don’t feel the need to get better gear when it isn’t required.

You want innovative implementation, but say ascended should be able to be crafted and sold on the TP. How is that innovative?

Current Methods of obtaining Ascended:
FotM Ring drops/pristine relics
Guild Mission rewards
Laurels
Mystic Forge.

Methods not in use:
RNG drops off Dungeon Bosses/World Bosses
Straight up buy them with gold
Crafting
Earnable through Special Achievements
Dungeon Token rewards
Dungeon Chests
JP chests
WvW Honor Badge rewards
RNG drop off of normal, vet, and champ mobs

They could add in all of these methods, but these have all been done in other MMOs, so they’re not new.

If my memory serves me correctly, A.net has said they will be adding more methods to obtain ascended gear. Perhaps you should wait for those updates.

My point still stands that Ascended is optional.

If you feel you HAVE to get ascended gear, that is your problem, not A.nets.

Lets be clear. Stats are not optional. Skins are!

Yeah they’ve said they’ll add new ways but when? In the novemeber release which was a disastor on so many levels they still haven’t fixed it much. Dailies are great but seriously 2 months for 2 items. Really? I thought you’re suppose to spend 1000s of hours on skins! not Stats!!!

I can appreciate you like grindy content. I do but Guild Wars 2 was marketed towards people that don’t. That want a change. That want somthing different.

Please keep that in mind before bashing someone’s post.

And on the side note your in the minority right now. Keep that in mind too.

Where did I say I enjoyed grinding? I don’t grind, thanks though.

Stats ARE optional. You can run all PvE content just fine in Greens!

An ~8% difference between exotic and ascended is quite small.

I bought GW2 because I loved GW1 and knew there would be horizontal progression in this one, but please don’t confuse optional vertical progression with forced vertical progression.

Ah, the forums, the minority that is the majority.

Red Falcon.8257:

Here is a fact for you guys:
Every single solution to endgame progression any company tried in the last 20 years of MMOs led to complaints.

If it’s dungeon RNG = “boohoo RNG bad design”
If it’s dungeon tokens = “boohoo token grindy bad design”
If it’s daily activities =“boohoo I need to play every day bad design”
If it’s easy to get or cosmetic = “boohoo game has no endgame”
If it’s karma grind = “boohoo but I don’t like events bad design”

Name one way that would make everyone happy.
You know what? There isn’t.
People will continue to deem “forced” and “grindy” everything and the opposite of everything.

Agreed 100% You can’t please everyone!

Red Falcon.8257:

Name one way that would make everyone happy.
You know what? There isn’t.
People will continue to deem “forced” and “grindy” everything and the opposite of everything.

OH OH OH

You don’t implement “ONE WAY” to make everyone happy. You have several ways! That way Mister Dungeons can play and get Ascended gear in his dungeons and be happy, and Mister Fractals can play and get Ascended gear from his fractals and be happy, and Mister Wuvwuv can play and get Ascended gear from his wuvwuv and be happy!

Everybody’s happy!

Sarrs.4831:

Red Falcon.8257:

Name one way that would make everyone happy.
You know what? There isn’t.
People will continue to deem “forced” and “grindy” everything and the opposite of everything.

OH OH OH

You don’t implement “ONE WAY” to make everyone happy. You have several ways! That way Mister Dungeons can play and get Ascended gear in his dungeons and be happy, and Mister Fractals can play and get Ascended gear from his fractals and be happy, and Mister Wuvwuv can play and get Ascended gear from his wuvwuv and be happy!

Everybody’s happy!

You beat me to it, I had the same suggestion. However I feel there will still be a few who find something to dislike about the multiple options provided. And they will be vocal about it on the forums just as day follows night.

Sarrs.4831:

Red Falcon.8257:

Name one way that would make everyone happy.
You know what? There isn’t.
People will continue to deem “forced” and “grindy” everything and the opposite of everything.

OH OH OH

You don’t implement “ONE WAY” to make everyone happy. You have several ways! That way Mister Dungeons can play and get Ascended gear in his dungeons and be happy, and Mister Fractals can play and get Ascended gear from his fractals and be happy, and Mister Wuvwuv can play and get Ascended gear from his wuvwuv and be happy!

Everybody’s happy!

<Mr. daily’s happy as well

Anet should implement Ascended for Honor Tokens next because of the BiS kitten there

Behellagh.1468:

You beat me to it, I had the same suggestion. However I feel there will still be a few who find something to dislike about the multiple options provided. And they will be vocal about it on the forums just as day follows night.

That’ll be like, two guys, who don’t enjoy anything in the game and you’re not even quite sure why they’re playing.

Sarrs.4831:

That’ll be like, two guys, who don’t enjoy anything in the game and you’re not even quite sure why they’re playing.

There’s a hell of a lot more than two guys on these forums that leave me wondering why they’re playing this game. A HELL of a lot more.

darkace.8925:

Sarrs.4831:

That’ll be like, two guys, who don’t enjoy anything in the game and you’re not even quite sure why they’re playing.

There’s a hell of a lot more than two guys on these forums that leave me wondering why they’re playing this game. A HELL of a lot more.

This. You can’t please everyone.

Sarrs.4831:

OH OH OH

You don’t implement “ONE WAY” to make everyone happy. You have several ways! That way Mister Dungeons can play and get Ascended gear in his dungeons and be happy, and Mister Fractals can play and get Ascended gear from his fractals and be happy, and Mister Wuvwuv can play and get Ascended gear from his wuvwuv and be happy!

Everybody’s happy!

Then what about Mister Event, Mister Crafter, Mister TP broker, Mister lvl 80 in the tutorial map, Mister “I play 1 hour/week but want all the best gear handed to me”, Mister Bean, Mister Bison and Blanka?

We make 800 ways to acquire every single item in the game?
You perfectly know what would happen.
People finds the easiest way (aka the one that can be grinded faster than others), blame the game for being a grindfest.
Ta-da!

Complaining is inner of gamers these days, they’re still crying for exotics even though they’re basically throwing it at you in 100 different ways now.

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument?

Because it’s an opinion. I can’t argue against your opinion. I can, however, present to you the facts. The facts are that we can, but are not required to, grind for stats. Content is not gated behind a series of gear checks only passable by those with BiS gear. Until this changes, the “this game is a grind” argument is a baseless one.

Its not mine opinion. Area Net said this.

Read my post before commenting.

Red Falcon.8257:

Here is a fact for you guys:
Every single solution to endgame progression any company tried in the last 20 years of MMOs led to complaints.

If it’s dungeon RNG = “boohoo RNG bad design”
If it’s dungeon tokens = “boohoo token grindy bad design”
If it’s daily activities =“boohoo I need to play every day bad design”
If it’s easy to get or cosmetic = “boohoo game has no endgame”
If it’s karma grind = “boohoo but I don’t like events bad design”

Name one way that would make everyone happy.
You know what? There isn’t.
People will continue to deem “forced” and “grindy” everything and the opposite of everything.

This is what happens when you try to appease too many different mind sets. The people that make those complaints are very different players with different gameplay desires.

Revolution.6301:

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument?

Because it’s an opinion. I can’t argue against your opinion. I can, however, present to you the facts. The facts are that we can, but are not required to, grind for stats. Content is not gated behind a series of gear checks only passable by those with BiS gear. Until this changes, the “this game is a grind” argument is a baseless one.

Its not mine opinion. Area Net said this.

Read my post before commenting.

So you keep saying. Prove it. Provide one link to a blog or interview in which ArenaNet says what you claim they say. Just. One. Link.

Edit: And I’m still waiting for you to provide factual evidence of what the “majority” want.

Red Falcon.8257:

Then what about Mister Event, Mister Crafter, Mister TP broker, Mister lvl 80 in the tutorial map, Mister “I play 1 hour/week but want all the best gear handed to me”, Mister Bean, Mister Bison and Blanka?

Mister Event can have his Ascended items from events, too!
Mister Crafter can have his Ascended items from crafting, too!
Mister TP broker already has a route to Ascended items- You can make back pieces with the Mystic Forge!
Mister lvl 80 in the tutorial map is being a bit silly!
Mister “I play 1 hour/week but want all the best gear handed to me” is probably in Iraq or Afghanistan, making me wonder why someone with such an entitlement complex would pass basic training!
Mister Bean is an alien and doesn’t deserve Ascended gear!
I don’t know who Mister Bison and Blanka are! I assume they’re a slippery slope fallacy, but the basic premise of my point is that you should be able to advance in the game no matter what avenue you choose to pursue, rather than being forced into a specific avenue in order to earn teh leetest gearz!

Red Falcon.8257:

We make 800 ways to acquire every single item in the game?
You perfectly know what would happen.
People finds the easiest way (aka the one that can be grinded faster than others), blame the game for being a grindfest.
Ta-da!

So? If the end goal for them is gear and they enjoy the game equally no matter what they do, what’s the problem? Let them grind away. Provided the differences in time/effort required are roughly the same, I don’t see a problem.

If people are going to complain about grinding one thing in particular when there are many other potential avenues to explore, then they’re kinda dooming themselves. The only people who are doing this to themselves that you should worry about are your family.

Red Falcon.8257:

Complaining is inner of gamers these days, they’re still crying for exotics even though they’re basically throwing it at you in 100 different ways now.

…Are they? Do people do that? Do people really whine about Exotics still?

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument?

Because it’s an opinion. I can’t argue against your opinion. I can, however, present to you the facts. The facts are that we can, but are not required to, grind for stats. Content is not gated behind a series of gear checks only passable by those with BiS gear. Until this changes, the “this game is a grind” argument is a baseless one.

Its not mine opinion. Area Net said this.

Read my post before commenting.

So you keep saying. Prove it. Provide one link to a blog or interview in which ArenaNet says what you claim they say. Just. One. Link.

Edit: And I’m still waiting for you to provide factual evidence of what the “majority” want.

Are you kidding me? Okay fine I’ll find you many links with Anet saying that. I’m shocked that your telling me to find somthing so well known but fine.
So if I find a few links what then? Will I be right and will you be wrong?

Revolution.6301:

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

darkace.8925:

Revolution.6301:

And people why is everyone ignoring my Skins should be what we grind for argument?

Because it’s an opinion. I can’t argue against your opinion. I can, however, present to you the facts. The facts are that we can, but are not required to, grind for stats. Content is not gated behind a series of gear checks only passable by those with BiS gear. Until this changes, the “this game is a grind” argument is a baseless one.

Its not mine opinion. Area Net said this.

Read my post before commenting.

So you keep saying. Prove it. Provide one link to a blog or interview in which ArenaNet says what you claim they say. Just. One. Link.

Edit: And I’m still waiting for you to provide factual evidence of what the “majority” want.

Are you kidding me? Okay fine I’ll find you many links with Anet saying that. I’m shocked that your telling me to find somthing so well known but fine.
So if I find a few links what then? Will I be right and will you be wrong?

Can you just find him the links and we’ll find out?

. . . I know I’ve heard it somewhere and am convinced you’re right that it came out of ArenaNet but I couldn’t put my finger on when. Honestly, I really wish they’d started . . .

(. . . aaaand I just had a thought which has made me sit right back down again. )

Finishing the above. “Wish they’d started with Ascended armor and put the art team to work making it look pretty.”

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/07/how-guild-wars-2-plans-to-survive

“Though Johanson accepts the huge outcry and accusations of betrayal from the playerbase were unavoidable, he admits the situation could have been handled better. In actual fact, Ascended Gear isn’t the most powerful gear in the game; it’s just as good as Legendary gear, but takes a fraction of the time to earn. “I think that ascended gear was something we should have had at launch,” Johanson says. “We didn’t have something above that exotic level that you put in a lot of time and earn it, but you don’t have to put in your whole life to earn it like a legendary weapon.”

Johanson thinks so explaining that, without a sub fee, the team has to work harder than most to keep players engaged.

“If other games don’t have that carrot or that thing that makes players log back in it’s really dangerous for them because they can’t get that monthly fee. We don’t have that. Instead, our motivation has to be provide players with such an amazing experience in the game that they want to keep playing it.

“That’s the only motivation we’ve got.”

Nurse.1085:

They look at me like “Are you serious?” – It’s a complete turn off and I can’t even defend you, Anet.

So maybe just tell them that they can play all of the content without asc. gear?!

+1 to OP end-game gear should take time and effort but letting us do things once per day isnt exactly those 2 things its more like artificial time sink then accual effort…

Orion the Cursed.1206:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/07/how-guild-wars-2-plans-to-survive

“If other games don’t have that carrot or that thing that makes players log back in it’s really dangerous for them because they can’t get that monthly fee. We don’t have that. Instead, our motivation has to be provide players with such an amazing experience in the game that they want to keep playing it.

“That’s the only motivation we’ve got.”

cough because jumping 15 times away from a mob without any need or consuming like 25 times food while your buffood is lasting for half an hour is such an incredibly amazing experience.

Really do you know ONE single person who is doing the dailies for the sake of the dailie and not for the laurel it rewards? Would anyone of you do the dailies if they rewarded nothing?

Pirlipat.2479:

Really do you know ONE single person who is doing the dailies for the sake of the dailie and not for the laurel it rewards? Would anyone of you do the dailies if they rewarded nothing?

I don’t how you play, but I rarely have to go out of my way to get 50 kills, gather 30 materials, or craft 10 items.

Which mostly leaves two other things which are not that easiely to get. And now it’s mostly not just kill 50 things it’s kill 50 things here and do 5 events there.

But the point for me rather is something else. He stated that he wants players to log in for the sake of the experience (not xp) while dailies are speaking a completely different language. Someone does them for the reward and if he is lucky his gameplay and the daily requirements match but it is not the experience which makes someone log in and do them but the reward people are gaining for doing them and nothing else.

darkace.8925:

We’ve covered this; it’s a carrot on a stick. The fact that you don’t like carrots on a stick doesn’t mean they should be removed from the game. Remember, there are others who do enjoy chasing carrots. They’re not wrong for wanting them, just as you aren’t wrong for not wanting them.

There’s something, though, to note about “challenging” and “enjoyable”; these things are subjective. What you find challenging, another might find frustrating. What you find enjoyable, another might hate.

We, the community, don’t all share the same values. Accordingly, ArenaNet has to try to give each of us a little of what we want. This means compromise. You want quick access to BiS gear. ArenaNet didn’t give you what you wanted, but they compromised by not implementing stringent gear checks.

Ah, but that’s the thing: the existing compromise, as shown in previous reactions, doesn’t make nearly as many people happy as it upsets.

If they insist on making one method of obtaining the gear significantly harder than the other, as they have so far, then how is that not appealing to the people who “like chasing carrots”? Why, then, can’t you provide other options that are significantly cheaper, and let the carrot-chasers pursue the obviously costly method?

The answer, of course, is that there isn’t any reason you can’t do that. That was the whole point behind “legendaries” after all: an item that, for all of its grinding, isn’t any stronger than an item you can find almost anywhere or just buy for 2-3g.

Sinoran.9140:

People begged and pleaded for a gear grind in this game. Ascended is for those people.

Exotics are there for the people who don’t want to grind for their gear.

If you want Ascended then you’ll just have to grind for it like everyone else who wants it.

You haven’t actually answered the question of why the grind has to be boring, so your post doesn’t really attack my argument so much as ignore it and continue to beat the same stale arguments that we’ve already covered and crushed months ago.

Would you prefer paying $15 a month to have one attempt a week at a boss that may not even drop your desired gear piece, which you still have to win the /roll against other players in the group? Or, play freely with a guarantee based on time, on when you get your BiS gear without the influence of RNG?

This is an obviously useless comparison as no one in their right mind would ever pick the clearly absurd option. But there are other much better options that you chose to ignore, trying to make it sound like there are only two. There aren’t.

If those kinds of gates weren’t there, we would be back at square one, people complaining that BiS gear is too easy to get (exotics). That’s just the way it is.

Where exactly were all of these complaints that people keep talking about?

I must admit I don’t recall seeing nearly as many “exotic are too easy to get” complaints as other people seem to remember. Heck, I think I saw more people complaining about “legendaries” being too hard to get than I ever saw complaining about exotics. So I’m curious where this illusory sample size that people keep mentioning came from, because if we look at what people complain about nowadays, it doesn’t seem like any of those people are still playing the game.

Behellagh.1468:

What’s your alternate? If ascended gear with it’s agony resistance is really meant for Fractals only then why not just put it there? Grind Fractals for ascended loot? No that’s boring grind. Or should you be able to walk in with one of the existing currencies, Karma/Gold and buy them all day one if you can afford it? But that requires you to play PvE or WvW a lot or “Buy to Win” converting bought Gems to gold.

I’ve already pitched a perfectly good suggestion that no one to date has been able to refute (although they insist that it can’t work, even though they’ve yet to explain why it’s a bad system).

1) Lower the pricing on all existing Ascended items to match existing price schema used in other areas. The result is a pricing system in which a player still needs about 7 months to fully kit their character, instead of the existing model which is likely to take well over 2 years at its continuing price increases.

2) Make all Ascended items available for no less than five currencies (Badges of Honor, Guild Commendations, Laurels, Karma, Pristine Fractal Relics) and give appropriate pricing to each.

Then the grind is severely reduced and people have a much wider selection in terms of how they go about getting the gear. Both of Ascended’s main problems are effectively removed without completely doing away with the grind, so it still has its appeal to the “hardcore” crowd while making the gear far more accessible to “casuals”.

@ critickitten. Perhaps you don’t remember the “Endgame?” threads complaining “I got exotics right when i hit 80, now what?”

If your idea is foolproof, then it would have been already implemented or would be soon. I can’t say whether or not or why because of the vagueness of that post.

Friendly reminder, Ascended gear is optional.

why bother even saying about laurels? why not just say ‘’until you want to start going above around fractal lvl 10 you can pretty much compete everywhere just fine once you hit 80, even in masterwork.’’

sorted. i find it so difficult that everyone thinks this and that is mandatory it really isn’t, everything is optional you can do fine in masterwork as long as your not a ‘’auto attack and make coffee’’ player.

Nurse.1085:

Everything sounds amazing, but when they start asking about “end gear/content” and I have to explain them it takes a minimum of 12 weeks for 2 accessories, a dedicated 20+ days of dailies and 1 monthly completion for a necklace and 20+ dailies from Fractals (unless you’re lucky with RNG) for 2 rings.

They ask about endgame gear/content and you only mention top level gear you can get several pieces of from as little as a month’s worth of gaming time. I can’t list many other MMOs giving you top-level gear in that short time…

As for content…

Nurse.1085:

TLDR ; Dailies/Weeklies are not a quality way to earn end game gear and it’s NOT quality content. If someone asked me what Guild Wars 2 end game was, I’d tell them Dailies (Dragons, Fractals, Dungeons, Daily daily, Monthly, Guild Missions, etc).

…this I agree with. When you login to GW now, it’s either ‘LFG Fractal 10/20+ daily’ or ‘has <insert world boss name here> spawned yet?’ that crops up in map chat. In guild chat it’s either, daily or guild missions. Latter is a welcome addition, but it’s done(or not) in 15 minutes which is only a fraction of the couple of hours spent in GW2 everyday.

Dungeons aren’t even endgame content, you do them all the way and only go repeat and swing your sword again, again and again in the same ol’ dungeon to get all those tokens you need for gear/gift.

There definitely is a lack of challenging endgame content, guild missions go some way to address it but even so it’s nothing like good old raids where you won’t even succeed the first “dozen” times because you need to figure out tactics or be coordinated enough as a group.