TY Anet for Transgender NPC!
However… I believe we should be able to have a conversation about this without the moderator team being required to lock the thread. Don’t you agree? Especially when, as several forum members have pointed out, this is one NPC with a few lines of dialogue who it not part of the story or of an event. You may interact with her, or not, as you choose. Just as you may join this thread, or not. But if you do…
If you feel negatively towards the presence of this NPC, this optional, easily-avoided, easily-ignored NPC, please avoid her in the game and please consider not posting in this thread unless you can do so with respectful and constructive comments.
Thanks.
I like that you reopened the thread, but it’s sad to see that such an NPC has to be some unimportant background character.
I’m not saying you (as in ANet) have to add a trans NPC as a major character, you already did a lot with adding Marjory/Kas (and other homosexual couples) and Taimi. But at the same time the last paragraph is still telling of the state of transgender people in them still having even more problems of being accepted.
Just because someone is educated in one field, like the professor you mentioned, doesn’t mean he is educated in another or that he doesn’t speak the way he was taught by people most emphatically not educated in this when he was young.
And what field is that? Is there a more specific field for this then being an M.D.?
Note that I am just trying to point out, that education has little or nothing to do with the question.
That professor was also 60 years old at the time he said that. His medical training was a good 40 years before that and he was taught by people who medical training was 40 to 50 years before that. A lot has changed in the last 80 – 100 years in the understanding of human biology and the possible variations. If you are going by the one opinion of someone whose education is that far back, well, i have to tell you. There have been some updates.
Yet some of my recently educated friends believe the same (also MD and Dentist).
Educated in the fields they went to school and got a degree in doesn’t mean they are educated in everything. The fields they didn’t study, they are no better than laypeople.
What field is that?
Unless transsexuality resides in the teeth, your dentist friend is only a lay person in his understanding. Unless your doctor friend is a specialist in sexual behavior then his classes likely only touched upon this before going on to other subjects. Most doctors have a general medical training and then they go on to a specific training in one field.
As to the field, It’s not one field. It’s many fields coming together. For example it’s genetics, the studies of hormones and their effects, the case studies of children that are raised a different gender than their sex, history, the studies of different cultures to see how these show up over across cultures and how they are handled in each culture. It’s even studies of animals and their sexual behaviors (homosexual rams are fairly common for example).
So unless you are a doctor, an antrpologist, an animal doctor, a psychologist, philosophist and a historian all at once and in all of these fields you have not specialized in sexual behavior your oppinions don’t really matter.
I have a feeling no one in the world fits the above description.
Since you’re a psychologist, you’re probably familiar with the ICD-10 and DSM-5. Someone holding current specializations in sexual behavior (psychology or medicine) or even a solid background in Gender/Qu**r Theory, are all areas I would give more weight to.
You’re right that currently, gender dysphoria is classified as a medical disorder, but a body of research is mounting up supporting declassification – and in the DSM-5, only the discontent of gender identity issues is pathologized, not the identity discordance itself. If you and your colleagues are choosing to reject that research, that is your prerogative as working professionals.
But you should be aware it is no longer a medical consensus that being transgender is a justified disorder.
I’m sticking myself to the holy trinity of:
As long as it doesn’t bother/affect you in a negative way nor your close context (family, close relatives, and firends) and it doesn’t affect your work in a negative way, it’s fine. For every disorder.
You’re assuming no one on the dev team is trans. That’s not a safe assumption to make. For all I know, one of the coders or artists or testers or managers wanted this character to represent their own feelings about their life.
That’s exactly what happened. A dev currently transitioning put her in.
https://twitter.com/PaschBlue/status/613515181985914880Think the timing with the whole Jenner thing is just a coincidence
it doesn’t help me learn about or even become aware of this dev’s experience.
However, I’m not saying it would be appropriate to make the character really deep and everything. There are tons of devs at Anet and they’d all have a story to share if you asked them, but that’s not what this game is about.
This game is about what Anet deems it to be about.
Just because someone is educated in one field, like the professor you mentioned, doesn’t mean he is educated in another or that he doesn’t speak the way he was taught by people most emphatically not educated in this when he was young.
And what field is that? Is there a more specific field for this then being an M.D.?
Note that I am just trying to point out, that education has little or nothing to do with the question.
That professor was also 60 years old at the time he said that. His medical training was a good 40 years before that and he was taught by people who medical training was 40 to 50 years before that. A lot has changed in the last 80 – 100 years in the understanding of human biology and the possible variations. If you are going by the one opinion of someone whose education is that far back, well, i have to tell you. There have been some updates.
Yet some of my recently educated friends believe the same (also MD and Dentist).
Educated in the fields they went to school and got a degree in doesn’t mean they are educated in everything. The fields they didn’t study, they are no better than laypeople.
What field is that?
Unless transsexuality resides in the teeth, your dentist friend is only a lay person in his understanding. Unless your doctor friend is a specialist in sexual behavior then his classes likely only touched upon this before going on to other subjects. Most doctors have a general medical training and then they go on to a specific training in one field.
As to the field, It’s not one field. It’s many fields coming together. For example it’s genetics, the studies of hormones and their effects, the case studies of children that are raised a different gender than their sex, history, the studies of different cultures to see how these show up over across cultures and how they are handled in each culture. It’s even studies of animals and their sexual behaviors (homosexual rams are fairly common for example).
So unless you are a doctor, an antrpologist, an animal doctor, a psychologist, philosophist and a historian all at once and in all of these fields you have not specialized in sexual behavior your oppinions don’t really matter.
I have a feeling no one in the world fits the above description.
Since you’re a psychologist, you’re probably familiar with the ICD-10 and DSM-5. Someone holding current specializations in sexual behavior (psychology or medicine) or even a solid background in Gender/Qu**r Theory, are all areas I would give more weight to.
You’re right that currently, gender dysphoria is classified as a medical disorder, but a body of research is mounting up supporting declassification – and in the DSM-5, only the discontent of gender identity issues is pathologized, not the identity discordance itself. If you and your colleagues are choosing to reject that research, that is your prerogative as working professionals.
But you should be aware it is no longer a medical consensus that being transgender is a justified disorder.
well, science is heavily under pressure from political agenda too.
being homosexual is a sexual orientation and I will never understand why it always gets thrown into the pot with transgender issues. Believing to be in the “wrong body” is a terrible fate, but it is a disorder. There is no soul/body dychotomy, there are no male and female souls. People who feel disconnected to their body like this are in no different place than anyone else suffering from some form of dysmorphia. You never hear “oh, but it is his/her identity!” when someone is suffering from anorexia. Instead of helping people they are pushed by some political agenda even to the point of seeking out some frankenstein butchery.
That is NOT it and is a very dangerous viewpoint to take.
Care to elaborate? In what way is my viewpoint dangerous?
Edit to add: Look at the posts directly above and below me (by Rukhas and Sogradde respectively, in case these posts are deleted later). I rest my case.
Let me put it this way, until Fallout 4 had it clear that you could customise your character, certain people saw it as bigoted and forcing you to play a white male, going against allowing openness simply because the protagonist used a voice in the trailer. Leadng to an absolutely stupid string of comments all over twitter, getting in the way of the fact, it’s Fallout 4!! There was nothing wrong with the trailer at all, certain people with this kind of topic in mind started spewing their venom simply because they didn’t feel it suited them.
I do not want this kind of hostility and debate eclipsing what’s important in this game, saving Tyria from the elder dragons. I don’t have anything against such groups but it’s not what a I log in for! That’s why that kind of viewpoint is dangerous, it’s hostile to the atmosphere we’ve had since launch where nobody thought about these things and we all just got on as normal. If that viewpoint starts making it’s way outside the thread to other things where it has no relevancy, then we are on a dark path. There are always going to be people with certain nasty views on it, it won’t change in a day, but lets not counter it by treating anyone else who doesn’t want to make this a bigger issue with hostility. It may have seemed like a knee jerk post I made at about….4am (I think), but it simply rung in with the attitude I’ve come to lothe from certain types in the bigger contraversies outside because of all the asinine trouble it creates. Nothing against you personally.
Look at this thread and wonder “How long is this going to keep going?” When this thread is gone, I hope everyone will just return to that surrounding what we log in for, the game. I am indeed looking through the thread and hoping this kind of debate NEVER rears it’s ugly head again! We’re all people/players!
(edited by Sarevok.2638)
No. Not really.
I do apologize for sounding combative earlier on this score, but this really is a matter of false equivalence. Your (and I mean this in the general usage, not specifically directed towards you) discomfort is not REMOTELY a good enough excuse to complain about someone else’s life choices.
The same thing goes with being gay, lesbian, black, asian, hispanic, Muslim, Jewish, or any other “minority” or “lifestyle” you wish to pick here.
I like how you put different races, religions and lifystyles in the same group, And how blacks, asians or muslims (arabs?) are “minorities”.
http://i37.tinypic.com/30m0391.jpg
US isn’t the only country in the world, there are far more blacks, asians and other “minorities” living in the world who are not that happy to put other “minorities” onto a pedestal (e.g. there are no minorities rights in those countries because minorities shouldn’t be treated better than the majority).
All citations are peer reviewed articles OR quote peer reviewed articles.
If sexual dysphoria is biological, not psychological, it does not automatically mean that ALL transgender people have biology causation.
I disagree with rushing to identify pre-pubescent children as transgender. Treating prepubescent children as children as opposed to girl children or boy children isn’t going to harm them. Forcing them into a transgender identity because you or the child THINK they are transgender could cause immeasurable harm.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120
Of children that reported transgender feelings, 70% to 80% spontaneously lost those feelings.
After sex change surgery, “their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable non-transgender population."
Was this 20 fold increase a result of external factors such as being rejected by family and friends or does it indicate a prevalence of mental illness associated with transgenderism?
186 psychiatrists responded to a survey regarding 584 patients with cross-gender identification.
61% of transgenders in the survey suffered from a mental illness that was NOT about being transgender. That’s far beyond statistically significant.
39% were transgender without a psychiatric issue (except possibly transgenderism itself).
75% of the transgender individuals were diagnosed as being transgender BECAUSE of a mental illness.
Other forms of biological dysmorphism are considered psychological. Why do so many reject the idea that at least some transgender people may suffer from a psychological condition?
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564
The study found that transgenders that identified female had a certain brain feature similar to women.
The number of subjects in the study was woefully small. There were 19 “normal” men and women used as a reference. There were 22 men with some sort of gender issues, 9 homosexual men, 6 transgender (born male), 6 men with a hormone disorder and 1 guy labeled as a nontreated transgender. The “nontreated” implies that the six transgender men were taking some sort of treatment, possibly female hormones. Out of the 22 men, 12 may have had hormone issues and should have been kicked out of the study on this basis. Hormones can alter brain chemistry.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/
This article found a slight connection with transgender people born male and a gene for androgen receptors.
The androgen receptor genes seemed to have a statistical correlation with transgender individuals. The other genes studied showed no correlation.
The results are SLIGHTY significant in favor of a biological cause. However, if the gene in question did cause transgenderism, one would expect a MASSIVELY significant correlation. The gene in question may promote transgenderism, but not cause it, meaning in terms of this gene it’s still a choice.
Out of 17 twins (fraternal and identical) 7 identical twins shared transgenderism. One out of 9 fraternal twins shared transgenderism.
1: The participants were not randomly selected but recruited through advertising. This is an ENORMOUS FLAW with utterly invalidates the research.
2: If almost all of these twins were raised in the same environment, this would tend to promote similar psychological outcomes. Nurture rather than nature. http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html
So there’s a guy who used mesmer magic to look like a girl? (oh how I might get flak for the wording of that sentence, still what does it matter what someone else calls you as long as you’re happy with who you are… although that’s a completely different rant for a different time).
What a waste of a good opportunity to introduce the total makeover kit in lore.
Still ANet has been pro-LGBT (and perhaps QIA+? Too many acronyms XD ) for a while now. Well it’s a small change, so it’s now like ANet has gone completely insane-liberal-SJW.
Modern world is disgusting.
Cultural and ideological conformity have always been a thing. So not really modern at all. At least we’re not killing people for disagreeing anymore (although turning people into pariahs seems to have reemerged). Still the point is not modern at all.
Reading this thread one should note that that assorted vile statements, insults, accusations of every shade of bigotry and general belligerence are a-OK so long as “your heart is in the right place”. Which is trademark of progressives at large and SJWs in particular, but what is new under the sun?
I see it more as a free speech thing myself. Words don’t really hurt anyone (excluding calls to action), so let people say what they want and the free-market-of-ideas gets to decide. Besides free-speech is self regulating, someone says something dumb someone else get’s to call it dumb.
That is NOT it and is a very dangerous viewpoint to take.
But not an unexpected one? Humans are tribal in essence, we tend to naturally ‘other’ each other.
Well, as long as we’re politically correct, by force if necessary..
Eh not such a big deal I believe. But it might be a slippery slope. I only have problems with it when it starts to degrade the quality of the game in some way (for example how sex-negative attitudes leads to female characters wearing burkas and unable to express and sort of sexuality i.e. a part of everyone’s personality i.e. leading to more shallow characters).
See… that’s the problem. Your “acceptance” means jack kitten. You don’t get to choose whether it’s acceptable or not. You get to shut your mouth and let other people choose how they want to live their lives.
Your opinion gets to be dismissed without merit, because that is all it deserves.
I think you’re tone is a bit too empassioned. I tend to prefer a passionless logical approach to these things, but that’s just my personal preference. Also, again let people say what they want. Free speech and all that. Alas incantations don’t exist (because magic doesn’t exist) so words have little physical capacity to harm.
However I do agree that my opinions have little importance to how someone else lives their lives, and that people should not be so easily impacted by the words of others (an intrinsic over extrinsic approach to personal happiness and all). Now if people could just stop shouting at me for using the wrong gender-pronouns… cause if my acceptance is meaningless then why should by usages of language suddenly be important… yeah I went to that rant I said I wouldn’t.
Lol this game just wants to be different SOOOO bad. Notice how there isn’t a single straight white male in Destiny’s Edge 2.0.
Broham is straight. Not strictly speaking white though (although he’d pass for one none the less).
Video games need more like this, more things that make players reflect on themselves and ask if there is something more they can learn… because the answer is almost always “yes.”
Oh… no… no. You see if video games are to be art they should be allowed to express a variety of views and opinions, including horrible and bad ones. The word ‘needs’ should not appear then, because that inherently leads to a ‘must’ which is a the slippery slope down which he lead to Sarkeesian-censorship.
Honestly I’m on the side that says: let the developers make the creative product they wish, irrespective of societal pressures and norms.
Although I guess if we argue ‘games aren’t art’ then we can argue for ‘games should be educational’ (ignoring the ‘games are escapism’ of course) then we can start mandating what should and shouldn’t be included in order to maximise educational value. But I’m included towards the arts argument myself and a bit toward the escapism, neither of which requires accurate, meaningful or honest portrayals of real world things.
Depending on the study but on average 2 to 7% of people identify as LGBT. So the fact that most games dipict the norm for upwards of 90% of people is shoving it down your throat.
My favorite part about SJWs, the idea that to include the minority one must exclude the majority or norm. It’s like the ‘gender is a social construct’ thing, even though that statement is kinda anti-transexual (because how can someone be born into a body that doesn’t match their gender if gender is a made up thing) and seems to ignore that our concepts of male and female are fairly normative. That is to say, most people born as biologically male have a male gender and like the ladies, and the other way around.
Then again this might just be one of those things I don’t get. Always willing to be informed however!
The same thing goes with being gay, lesbian, black, asian, hispanic, Muslim, Jewish, or any other “minority” or “lifestyle” you wish to pick here.
Or white. Some of us do live in Africa you know.
If my prerogative is game balance and that is weird, then what does that make this thread? I’m done now. The hive mind here is like talking to a wall. Goodbye.
I think we should all remember that there are people who engage mechanically (like Bacon) and people who engage narrative-ly (probably not the right word) so priorities will differ.
People who are trans were born, that is, it’s innate, with a gender identity that doesn’t match their sex and it’s not unreasonable for them to wish to align the two.
Unless gender is socially constructed (I don’t agree but again maybe I just don’t get it). If gender is socially constructed one cannot be born with the right or wrong gender. Again either gender is something you’re born with or it’s something you’re taught. Sorry ever since I was introduced to the concept my Milo Yiannopoulos (and his simply wonderful hair) it’s been something I couldn’t help but mull over.
I though that was called looting (which is illegal) ^^
Depends where in the world you are.
Also laws aren’t a very good foundation for defining moral right and wrong, given the capricious nature of laws and the perceived (unless you’re a moral nihilist like myself) unchanging nature of good, evil, right and wrong.
Some people think that just because their gender and sexual attractions happened “naturally” that anything different is unnatural.
Depends on how we define natural doesn’kitten If we define natural as being somewhat in line with norms, that is to say if normally happens a certain why and thus is the natural way, one would could argue that someone out of the norm would be abnormal or unnatural. After all unnatural doesn’t mean impossible, unnatural things do occur and thus their occurrence doesn’t inherently make them natural.
But there I go, argumentative again.
So did a lot of doctors back in the day. They said homosexuality was a mental illness. And they were wrong.
Depends again on how we define illness, we could define it as something that causes an abnormality (or we could define it as something harmful but that doesn’t fall in line with my train of argument… so I’ll just ignore it :P ), as homosexuality is not the norm (and thus by definition abnormal) we could in fact deduce that being homosexual was as a result of some sort of mental abnormality or illness.
Ok… I think I’m getting way too into this argumentative thing XD
Correct me if I am wrong, but not having your body produce the right hormones (or more os less of them), being born with extra X or Y chromosomes is considered a sickness
Again depends on our definitions. It certainly is abnormal (which strictly speaking just means not-normal, and appeal to nature and all that).
Educated in the fields they went to school and got a degree in doesn’t mean they are educated in everything.
Yes that would be an appeal to authority… but also fallacy fallacy. So it’s not a particularly productive line of reasoning either way.
social change as in ending transphobia
Nah that’s silly. I’m all for legal change however. Let people think and feel what they like, as long as there are legal mechanism in place preventing discrimination (i.e. said opinions stay opinions and do not become action or least become punishable actions) I don’t see the problem.
It is nice they did it in a subtle and dignified manner.
Mistress Savant of the Asuran Dominion.
It is nice they did it in a subtle and dignified manner.
Pity the reaction has gone FAR from it.
186 psychiatrists responded to a survey regarding 584 patients with cross-gender identification.
61% of transgenders in the survey suffered from a mental illness that was NOT about being transgender. That’s far beyond statistically significant.
39% were transgender without a psychiatric issue (except possibly transgenderism itself).
75% of the transgender individuals were diagnosed as being transgender BECAUSE of a mental illness.
Other forms of biological dysmorphism are considered psychological. Why do so many reject the idea that at least some transgender people may suffer from a psychological condition?
“186 psychiatrists responded to a survey” people don’t typically see psychiatrists if they’re feeling fine, so I’d say there was a pretty big issue right from the start. It would be like 200 oncologists filled in a survey and said 78% of their patients had cancer. Doesn’t scream representative sample to me. Beyond that, I’d imagine that being a certain gender and being a certain sex and finding that they do not match with each other probably is a common source for a number of psychological difficulties that transgender people face. And how anyone could say that one psychological difficulty is completely unrelated to any specific life circumstances of an individual is beyond me.
Psychological difficulties are not defined by whether they are typical or atypical, they aren’t even defined by neurological or genetic differences or abnormalities(we’re all nurologically different). The defining quality of a psychological illness is that it causes distress. And so being transgender, that is, having made a change for one’s own benefit to look and act in accordance with one’s own self perception, cannot be classified as a mental illness.
old people are almost always vastly ignorant to social change. which is where the racist grandparents stereotypes come from.
“social change”
So, you admit it’s a social agenda, and not a real issue? If society says it’s normal, then doctors need to swallow their knowledge and research and go with the flow?
Human anatomy and physiology didn’t change for thousands of years.social change as in ending transphobia, not whatever words you put in my mouth
Homophobia and Transphobia doesnt exist in the DSM5
so I dont know what that is.. because its not a diagnosis. …
Honestly this thread need to be closed since both sides cant reach common ground and its infractions if you disagree. So lets just close this down Anet.
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the way Anet implements minorities in GW2. Usually what I would expect a gaming company to do would be one of two things:
1.) Play it for laughs with a punchline basically saying “haha, that guy is different”.
2.) Put large neon pointers on it for maximum PR effect (sometimes combined with method 1).
Anet chose neither route. They just put some more or less unobtrusive NPCs in the game and let them live their lives as if they were normal people. Which they are.
For me the mere existence of a transgender NPC in a game world is nothing too special, certainly not as special as some would make it out to be, but the way how that NPC is presented is really extraordinary. It is a message of “Life is deadly, so live it like you really want to live.” delivered in the least intrusive way possible.
Big thumbs up!
Honestly what I want now is a new Mesmer Elite:
Second Skin
Configure a second character design, completely freely (gender, looks, wardrobe, everything). Elite button swaps between both designs.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Homophobia and Transphobia doesnt exist in the DSM5
so I dont know what that is.. because its not a diagnosis. …
I think those terms are quite misleading. No one fears lgbt people.
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the way Anet implements minorities in GW2. Usually what I would expect a gaming company to do would be one of two things:
1.) Play it for laughs with a punchline basically saying “haha, that guy is different”.
2.) Put large neon pointers on it for maximum PR effect (sometimes combined with method 1).Anet chose neither route. They just put some more or less unobtrusive NPCs in the game and let them live their lives as if they were normal people. Which they are.
For me the mere existence of a transgender NPC in a game world is nothing too special, certainly not as special as some would make it out to be, but the way how that NPC is presented is really extraordinary. It is a message of “Life is deadly, so live it like you really want to live.” delivered in the least intrusive way possible.Big thumbs up!
What is your definition of “Minorities”?
Promoted and pushed down our throats? JFC. You have an issue with other people living their lives and being represented, that’s all it boils down to. Your “normal” lifestyle is being pushed down everyone else that differs from it in the media.
And for your ignorance: It was implemented by a trans woman living story dev who is currently going through transition. How about people want their lives to be represented and it’s not about a kittening agenda just because you don’t understand it?!
It always has to be about me me me and me it seems.
Also repeating my first post since it was deleted for speaking of a deleted post:
I will never understand how or why other people make other’s lives their problem. It’s not about you, get over it.
mouth too blunt, truth too loud
(edited by Kitta.3657)
It always has to be about me me me and me it seems.
Except nobody was making a big me me me deal about NPCs and this style of choice be it straight or lgbt until this one decided to make it explicit! Then all of a sudden, this kicks off! When the topic of Logan and his thing for Queen Jennah was being discussed, it wasn’t over the fact he was straight that was the topic of discussion, both from the IN GAME characters and players talking about it! Oh no, there was plenty more to talk about.
That statement is HIGHLY hypocritical!
I hope Anet close this thread, never make this a big deal again so this ugly issue doesn’t rear it’s head again, seeing this even got to 8 pages I feel like getting a new mouse mat with “Bang Head here” on it! It ruins everything for everyone.
[Trevor Phillipsing Intensifies]
The original reaction about the NPC is to say “Thanka Anet, this is thoughtful and well done, we appreciate it!” Really can’t see anything wrong with it. The way people are handling though, that’s another thing.
Do you think the same of the reaction to Taimi’s disabilities being overwhelmingly appreciated or only when it comes to da evil gay social agendas? (here I’m just exaggerating, I don’t think necessarily that you think this way but your own reaction to this seems just as much hypocrite as you claim my words to be)
It shouldn’t need to be mentionned, I won’t disagree with that but I see nothing wrong with doing so.
Also your comparison to Logan/Jennah is illogical. Transgender is not a sexual orientation. And no one makes a fuss about straight relationships because straight relationships are seen as “the norm” E-V-E-R-Y-W-H-E-RE!
mouth too blunt, truth too loud
(edited by Kitta.3657)
… I guess the question that comes to mind for me is.. if that can and does happen in RL why then would we all want that to creep into something we’re likely sitting at home playing away from reality as well, I don’t think I would look forward to logging in so much for sure.
I’m not sure I understand this comment. What exactly are you referring to when you ask whether we want “that” to creep into our game? It’s not like the NPC’s of Lion’s Arch are going to come running up to you shouting racist or homophobic expletives.
If you’re talking about other players in map chat, well, people say offensive things all the time. You block, report, and move on.
Whoooosh.. how to completely and utterly miss the point by a country mile.
No one is saying the NPC’s are going to run shouting stuff through the streets.. in fact I personally have no issues with having this NPC in game, I see it as something and nothing.. but unfortunately that is just me and not everyone thinks and acts the same as me.
Perhaps ANET, like other things they have done in game, start out with all the best intention to help please a facet of the player base but at the same time miss or overlook what the potential downsides could be.. and toxicity is one of them and can ruin one’s gaming appetite quite quickly no matter what side of the equation you sit.
As for in game chat.. of course that’s where the issues can and will always ignite.. its a very heated topic for both sides of this issueand once the stone starts to roll it turns into the unstoppable force meets unmovable object scenario and a war of words takes over .. sure we can block and report but is that really all you can come up with.. personally I think it would just be best to avoid bringing the potential flamewar into game in the first place, but hey that’s just me and ANET have already made their decision so we just all have to get on with it.
Also your comparison to Logan/Jennah is illogical. Transgender is not a sexual orientation.
Granted, a bit illogical because I’ve implicitly been linking it to the debates that have been taken outside the game, and those debates turned really nasty, into wars over social media (THAT I AM PRETTY SURE I’VE MADE CLEAR I WANT TO AVOID HERE), my bad. I was trying to make the point that things like this were not brought up before and everything was much better.
One side of the debate was encouraged not to post. It’s blatant unfairness.
What debate exactly? As I’ve said before, bigotry-fueled opinions aren’t worth consideration.
It’s like encouraging debate between creationism and evolution. That shouldn’t happen, because one side is unequivocally wrong and the other isn’t.
I am so happy that in this fictitious world in GW2 that we can all come together and show support for fictitious things!
Anet has shown 2 thing with this:
- They are an avant-garde team, never seen this before in an MMO and inclusion is a must in today’s society.
- They’re great at marketing! This is done because they know it will get a lot of people (not only players) to talk about GW2.
A Big hello to the LGBTIQ community in GW2, you are a great part of this game and I’m happy to share Tyria with you!
Thank you, Anet. You have no idea how much this means to a lot of people.
I’m a trans man – the opposite of Sya. I am not a political statement, and neither is she. She’s representation. Which is very, very important to minorities and the LGBTQA community, because we so rarely see good representations, acknowledgements of our existence. That’s what this is about. It’s not political. It’s accepting that we exist and a representation of diversity. There are so many straight, cisgender people in media – I think you could maybe scoot over and share the spotlight a little.
Seeing characters like Sya in GW2 and Krem (who is like me) in video games makes people like us feel accepted and included. It feels wonderful, it fills us with happiness to see people in these games who are like us, representations of us. I hope this helps you to understand how much this means to so many of us. The game already had a great representation for me, the sylvari are meant to be pansexual, like I am. And it just feels amazing to feel so.. fully included and acknowledged, now that both my sexuality and being transgender are represented in this game that I love.
Thank you again, Anet, you wonderful people.
One side of the debate was encouraged not to post. It’s blatant unfairness.
What debate exactly? As I’ve said before, bigotry-fueled opinions aren’t worth consideration.
What a progressive and tolerant remark.
Aww! I’ve been really annoyed with Anet lately, but this has just brightened my day and redeemed them in my eyes.
One side of the debate was encouraged not to post. It’s blatant unfairness.
What debate exactly? As I’ve said before, bigotry-fueled opinions aren’t worth consideration.
It’s like encouraging debate between creationism and evolution. That shouldn’t happen, because one side is unequivocally wrong and the other isn’t.
Quoted for truth.
Couldn’t agree more. But lets leave it there, don’t want to derail the thread any further.
Anet did something awesome in GW2.
#TheresHopeForHumanity
Honestly what I want now is a new Mesmer Elite:
Second Skin
Configure a second character design, completely freely (gender, looks, wardrobe, everything). Elite button swaps between both designs.
Sacrificing combat potential for roleplay and aesthetics?
I like it.
I like how the people who make a big deal about it usually use the same arguments, without thinking about them too much.
-“It’s a political agenda”: Is every straight character in a game a political agenda as well? Why would only lgbtq characters be part of an agenda while straight characters are not?
-“It’s shoved down our throats”: If that’s true, then again, every heterosexual/cisgender character is shoving it down out throat too, and I don’t think people would agree with that.
-“a videogame is not the place for real life problems”: Unless you’re playing Super mario bros, most games now (including GW2) have war, poverty, cruelty, murder, torture, betrayal, political plots, orphans, and many many other “real life problems” if that’s not a problem in a game why would a lgbt character not fit in a game? Even more, why are you more offended by a lgbt character than by any of the things of the previous list? It says a lot about you as a person if you’re more offended by gays than by war or poverty.
-“I’m tired of hearing about it, it’s a topic brought too many times lately.”: So let me understand, there is ONE NPC in a world of hundreds of them, you don’t have to talk to her or anything, it’s not required; and there is ONE topic about this on the forums among thousands of other topics and YOU decide to enter this ONE topic to talk about this ONE npc, and then you claim it’s everywhere? I have bad news for you my friend, it’s YOU who are deliberately searching for these topics, it’s not that they are everywhere.
All of these reasons are used as a way to hide their own feelings about the subject, and that is that they just find it “icky”, in most cases.
At least I haven’t seen anyone claiming homosexuality is a disease or something, I don’t know if we’re finally past that stage or the people who still believe it just don’t have the guts to say it in public.
(edited by coso.9173)
If you feel negatively towards the presence of this NPC, this optional, easily-avoided, easily-ignored NPC, please avoid her in the game…..
Thanks.[/quote]
That really sums it up well. I’m completely disinterested in stories like this. Live and let live and don’t offer me your life story if I don’t ask you for it……. No rage, no righteous indignation, no interest. No need to be insulting or rude, no need to sing any praises.
I think if everyone let everyone live their lives as they see fit (so long as they’re not doing harm to others) then stories like this, while happening everyday, would fade from the news and we’d all be better off simply allowing people to be people.[/quote]
+1. This is how people should behave throughout all aspects of their lives. The world would be a lot happier place if we all followed this simple philosophy.
“Judge a person’s character by how they behave when given anonymity.”
Welcome to the Internet, exposing characters since the early 80’s.
Welcome to the Internet, exposing characters since the early 80’s.
posting about SJW like it was some sort of insult in this topic is what makes you look stupid.
Frankly, it always makes me happy to see this kind of inclusion in The Game. It’s great that Arena Net chooses to demonstrate repeatedly that Tyria is a big place with room for everyone.
Everyone.
-“It’s a political agenda”: Is every straight character in a game a political agenda as well? Why would only lgbtq characters be part of an agenda while straight characters are not?
Let me refer you to the dialogue of the character. When they tell you about their choice, what is the player’s response, and ONLY response.
“That’s brave”
Really…? That’s brave? I would have never have noticed this had it not been pointed out but after a little looking around I can see why people are getting concerned. It’s self-congratulatory. The fact the player is given ONLY THAT option just reeks of vanity that they are seen as brave for THAT choice. What about all the other things this NPC has done, that I would indeed recognise as brave. This is why the agenda stuff is coming up.
This one factor wouldn’t be an issue if another dialogue choice was given to say that’s nice and move on, a simple friendly acknowledgement because you don’t RELATE to that character, whereas people who DO relate to that one can pick the current option and get dialogue linking back to give their own character implicit ingame identity like that from this NPC. THAT would have been the best way to handle it if we want to try to give that choice from the NPC that much exposure.
Again: I HAVE NOTHING against this character, or people can relate to that character, I am simply trying to point out why these things are coming up. Of course, the easier thing is to just ignore it
very nice anet much appreciated we need more though !
Props to Anet for a small but effective nod at representation. I think you could do better, but it’s worth recognizing that you did well.
Slops to the chunk of the GW2 community that feels the need to turn a thread about it into a festival of ignorance. Huge slops. Bigger slops than I’ve ever wished on anyone in-game.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
Just because someone is educated in one field, like the professor you mentioned, doesn’t mean he is educated in another or that he doesn’t speak the way he was taught by people most emphatically not educated in this when he was young.
And what field is that? Is there a more specific field for this then being an M.D.?
Note that I am just trying to point out, that education has little or nothing to do with the question.
That professor was also 60 years old at the time he said that. His medical training was a good 40 years before that and he was taught by people who medical training was 40 to 50 years before that. A lot has changed in the last 80 – 100 years in the understanding of human biology and the possible variations. If you are going by the one opinion of someone whose education is that far back, well, i have to tell you. There have been some updates.
Yet some of my recently educated friends believe the same (also MD and Dentist).
Educated in the fields they went to school and got a degree in doesn’t mean they are educated in everything. The fields they didn’t study, they are no better than laypeople.
What field is that?
Maybe I’ll translater what flesh wound tries to say. If you accept LGBT agenda – you are educated. If you don’t accept their agenda – you’re a barbarian. Your diploma or age is not important.
Modern world is disgusting.
Yeah, an agenda of respect and tolerance is disgusting, as opposed to an agenda of marginalization and intolerance.
old people are almost always vastly ignorant to social change. which is where the racist grandparents stereotypes come from.
“social change”
So, you admit it’s a social agenda, and not a real issue? If society says it’s normal, then doctors need to swallow their knowledge and research and go with the flow?
Human anatomy and physiology didn’t change for thousands of years.Imagine if you can that you were born you, as you are now in every way, but were the opposite gender. If you can’t have empathy for your fellow man then you’re the one who needs help.
Sure, I do have empathy and pity their situation. What I don’t agree with is the path of acceptance, instead of healing. I just think that encouraging makes it worse. It would be like encouraging alcohol or gambling addict.
What I think these people need, is help from doctors, psychologists and mentor role models who will teach them to accept who they actually physically are, and not their wishful fantasies.
It’s widely known in the modern world that sexual orientation isn’t simply a choice one makes. People who still try to argue it is aren’t just irrational (did you choose to be straight?), they are also ignoring or contradicting hard scientific consensus.
I love the concept and the execution of this character and I would be even happier to see them somehow brought more to the foreground as a character we have to interact with for some future quest. Leave this dialogue as is and as an optional click but make her a character with some Order of Whispers info we have to seek out. Still not ‘in your face’ and more proof that she’s a regular person just doing her job.
But then I’m also hoping that Anet will explore the interspecies love triangle that is inevitable between Braham, Rox and Taimi in Season 3.
But then I’m also hoping that Anet will explore the interspecies love triangle that is inevitable between Braham, Rox and Taimi in Season 3.
Taimi – The little child asura?
Really now? >_>
I love all the buzzwords people slap around like “SJW” and “gamergate”. You know, it is possible for people to have formulated their own opinions and actually do believe in acceptance and diversity because they feel it is the moral and right thing for themselves and society as a whole. The very term “SJW” implies that a person is just jumping on a bandwagon and really doesn’t care about the subject matter, but only to increase people’s opinions of themselves. While there may indeed be people like this, I don’t think it applies to most people and is simply a way of trying to dismiss that people actually do care about treating other human beings with dignity, respect and equality. Whenever I read comments on threads like this on the internet, it’s always a small group of people decrying “SJWs” and how they’re ruining everything… And as for gaming companies “falling prey to SJWs”… no. They’re business people who see markets that they haven’t tapped yet. As much as I’d like to think it’s all for the noble reason of just wanting to be inclusive, it’s probably more about expanding sales and their target audience.
- edit corrected spelling of a word
(edited by Lord Arhan Warmark.7098)
Well, I’m a bit old-fashioned in that sense, if I know it’s a guy in womens clothing, I tend to think of him/her as a dude. But if I wouldn’t know, then yeah I would think of him/her as a woman.
Except it’s not. It’s actually a woman in a man’s body in a woman’s clothing.
If you want to doubt that, you can go ahead and tell the medical professionals that spent their time studying body dysmorphic disorder to go kitten themselves too.So you’ve basically just said that ‘transgender’ people have a mental disorder. Nice going.
I don’t know why Bruce Jenner keeps being brought up as a hero representative of the LBGT community since y’know, he killed someone.
I also just love how poorer countries whose citizens have actual, real problems don’t have this issue. You can tell life is easy for people when they start making up rubbish to make themselves feel special.
I don’t know why Anet feels the need to add this kind of stuff, gay people I can support, but ‘transgender’ are just laughable, so you don’t wear 8-layers of makeup, high heels and tight clothes? You’re a tomboy, not ‘transgender’.
Doesn’t happen among poorer countries whose citizens have actual, real problem? You sure about that? Or you just haven’t looked? Can you show any societies past or present that don’t have transgendered people?
Two examples. Among American Indians it’s called Two spirit and has always been there.
There was a documentary I saw of a centuries old practice in India where men took on the female role (as much as they could in days before surgery). They lived their lives as women and considered themselves women, not men. Hijra
Be careful what you ask for
ANet may give it to you.
ANet may give it to you.
(edited by Just a flesh wound.3589)
But then I’m also hoping that Anet will explore the interspecies love triangle that is inevitable between Braham, Rox and Taimi in Season 3.
Taimi is a child. Like, 12 years old. That wouldn’t ever happen.
I absolutely love Sya, I have many friends who are LGBT and I have proudly walked along side them in their search for equality. I sincerely mean it when I say it means the world to them to have companies like ArenaNet, NCsoft, BioWare, Etc who have been so very accepting, inclusive, and stand by them too in their own way.
Thank you ArenaNet, you should know that you make an enormous difference, and positive impact with your approach on this. Things like this really do make a difference in the long-term, and we are finally seeing the long overdue shift in our society towards acceptance, and inclusiveness. A shift that you have played no small part in making happen.
(edited by Shanna.4762)
Taimi – The little child asura?
Really now? >_>
Maybe asura grow faster than human. Who knows?
That is NOT it and is a very dangerous viewpoint to take.
Care to elaborate? In what way is my viewpoint dangerous?
Edit to add: Look at the posts directly above and below me (by Rukhas and Sogradde respectively, in case these posts are deleted later). I rest my case.
Let me put it this way, until Fallout 4 had it clear that you could customise your character, certain people saw it as bigoted and forcing you to play a white male, going against allowing openness simply because the protagonist used a voice in the trailer. Leadng to an absolutely stupid string of comments all over twitter, getting in the way of the fact, it’s Fallout 4!! There was nothing wrong with the trailer at all, certain people with this kind of topic in mind started spewing their venom simply because they didn’t feel it suited them.
I do not want this kind of hostility and debate eclipsing what’s important in this game, saving Tyria from the elder dragons. I don’t have anything against such groups but it’s not what a I log in for! That’s why that kind of viewpoint is dangerous, it’s hostile to the atmosphere we’ve had since launch where nobody thought about these things and we all just got on as normal. If that viewpoint starts making it’s way outside the thread to other things where it has no relevancy, then we are on a dark path. There are always going to be people with certain nasty views on it, it won’t change in a day, but lets not counter it by treating anyone else who doesn’t want to make this a bigger issue with hostility. It may have seemed like a knee jerk post I made at about….4am (I think), but it simply rung in with the attitude I’ve come to lothe from certain types in the bigger contraversies outside because of all the asinine trouble it creates. Nothing against you personally.
Look at this thread and wonder “How long is this going to keep going?” When this thread is gone, I hope everyone will just return to that surrounding what we log in for, the game. I am indeed looking through the thread and hoping this kind of debate NEVER rears it’s ugly head again! We’re all people/players!
sorry a very minor NPC is keeping you from killing a dragon. maybe your gear is underleveled?
Zhaife
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