Guild Wars 2

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

snip

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

I’ve been playing this game for about six months. 140-150 gold represents 90% of the gold I have managed to get during the entire time that I have been playing the game!

Does that sound to you like it in any way honors the time and effort someone like me has put in? Please do not make the mistake of thinking that just because you’ve been playing the game for years or do frequent dungeon runs or because your coffers are full for whatever reason that 140-150 gold is a small or easy number for all of us. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do.

For many many players who’ve come to the franchise in the past few months—just long enough to start to get really invested in the game but not long enough that we’ve got cred as vets—that’s a big number. And we are really not the people you should be looking to alienate in this conversation.

Ohoni.6057:

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

I would love for you to provide one single quote in which anyone from anet says what you are saying, because the fact of it is that they refused to give a straight answer on the thread that was created about the very subject of HoT having a character slot included or not and are marking the new profession as a core feature of the expansion.

Yes, we could roll eight classes at release but only had 5 slots, those 5 slots however at least gave you the chance to try out every class you wanted before making a choice, all you had to do is create a character and head to spvp. The situation is not the same with HoT because you cannot roll the new profession, which is a core feature, to try it out and decide whether you want to play it or not if you made use of the 5 slots given to you when you first bought the game.

Anet is not a charity and i’m not rich, however if they’re that desperate for money that they need to try to squeeze out those extra $10 from veteran players that want to play the revenant then maybe they shouldn’t be giving away the base game for free at all should they?

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

Whatever your opinion on deleting characters to make new ones, you must remember that that is a totally subjective matter that is going to feel like a much bigger slight to some people who care about the characters they have made in different ways than you might. (For those who do some roleplay, for example, characters make up individual elements of ongoing stories about which they care deeply.)

What’s factually true, however, is that ANet promised something to players at the PAX South announcement of HoT. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs from about 16 minutes in). Within the first minutes of the announcement, Mike O’Brien had said that they did not want to produce an expansion that “invalidates all the work that you’ve put in to your existing characters” by forcing anyone to grind for higher level gear or to reach a raised level cap.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

And frankly, I think that seeing that suggestion glibly thrown around by some players is doing a tremendous amount to undermine the sense of friendliness and good will in the community—it creates bitterness and anger between us all by making it seem that some players want others to sacrifice their effort, time, and imaginative/emotional energies, while not acknowledging that they themselves would be outraged if it was suggested that they deleted something from their accounts that they had worked hard for and cared about.

If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

That’s still grinding tho. Grind for it or pay real money, it’s still having to do something additional to access core HoT content.

Posh, you’d have to do the very same thing to enjoy a Dragonhunter if you haven’t got a Guardian yet your character slots are full. The issue of HoT content being something you have to obtain through additional actions isn’t an inherent flaw. To get to the jungle, you likely need to be lvl 80 and if you’re rolling a new character, you’ll need to reach that point somehow…

Funny thing is, I’m not opposed to buying characters slots and I’m not opposed to paying more than $50 for the expansion. If HoT weren’t marketing the Rev as a big part of the new content they were bringing to GW2, this wouldn’t be an issue, but it is being marketed as a big part and it is one of the areas of HoT that has been most hyped.

You’re saying that players shouldn’t feel disappointed that they don’t get access to the thing they’ve gotten hyped up about and shouldn’t be deflated when they’re told they’re not getting the full bang for their (50)bucks? I find this a very strange position to take, to be honest.

jesters.9406:

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

Ohoni.6057:

So if you pay for the expansion, then you are entitled to get use of the expansion without needing to pay an additional $10 on top of its sticker price to buy the character slot that will let you gain access to the new profession which is a substantial element of its advertised content.

No, you are not.

You are entitled to the ability to roll a Revenent into any character slots you may have available, just as you were able to roll any of the original eight classes into any slot you had available. You are NOT entitled to a free slot to put that character into, unless ANet says that you are.

This has been pointed out several times already, but I’ll reiterate.

Whether you like to admit it or not (or even know), Anet has set a precedence in the past of providing a character slots equivalent to the new classes they released per campaign to allow players to get the most out of the new content they’ve released….

In that precedence, was it possible to purchase character slots in those previous campaigns with in-game currencies?

Honestly, I don’t recall when it became possible to purchase additional GW1 slots, but I think that is circumventing the point that if Anet is totting Rev as a key feature of HoT then it would be prudent to give equal instant access to that content, as par their previous gestures.

It’s easy to say “that was then and this is now” but irrespective of that, it is not asking for the moon to say that $50 should give new and established players means to try out the new content without one group needing to pay/do more for the same content. :/

Not saying one way or the other, just pointing out that the precedence lacks some equivalency. In those previous GW1 expansions, you literally had to pay more cash to unlock the slot for the new class. That isn’t really the case in GW2.

I also asked previously, what if instead, Anet offered some sales every now and again, leading up to and the first week of HoT release, that lowered the cost of character slots and inventory expansions?

Consider it a compromise. Even if you’re a new player, it might show some good will to use the gem store when specials are offered. Not only that, it’d definitely get some sales for players still on the fence about purchasing the expansion, allowing them to buy some slots if they might want to buy the expansion to play Revenant in the future. Inventory expansion slots would also help newbies but also could be useful to the less-rich vets who have a load of un-upgraded characters that they are taking into HoT content.

Would the sentiment that you’re not getting everything new players are getting be a factor for you or others? Or maybe the thought that vets need something exclusive is the culprit here?

With the OP all the way.

For me, the word ‘entitled’ just seems equivalent to the whole ‘kitten’ thing. A polite-ish way of saying ‘noob’, ‘scrub’, ‘HTFU’ and all those other interesting words you can find in e.g. the EVE forums. But still very much meant to insult, and to imply the user is right, because the insulted party doesn’t know what they’re talking about, doesn’t have ‘what it takes’, is a greedy kid without a brain etc. Tiresome, inaccurate and juvenile. I vote to just have ‘entitlement’ and ‘entitled’ replaced by ‘kitten’ and have done with it.

hibari.9836:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

snip

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

I’ve been playing this game for about six months. 140-150 gold represents 90% of the gold I have managed to get during the entire time that I have been playing the game!

Does that sound to you like it in any way honors the time and effort someone like me has put in? Please do not make the mistake of thinking that just because you’ve been playing the game for years or do frequent dungeon runs or because your coffers are full for whatever reason that 140-150 gold is a small or easy number for all of us. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do.

For many many players who’ve come to the franchise in the past few months—just long enough to start to get really invested in the game but not long enough that we’ve got cred as vets—that’s a big number. And we are really not the people you should be looking to alienate in this conversation.

There’s many ways of obtaining gold. Once you play for a while, you start to have less and less things to spend gold on and you have to find ways to waste your gold. I know, when I was playing the game, I ended up wasting lots of gold on crafting. I still sometimes burn gold on crafting but I can also make gold through crafting.

If 150 gold is 90% of your entire income up to your 6 months of playing, it only gets worse and you only get more gold as time progresses…there’s always things in the game that straight up give you gems…

But all that aside, lots of people complain about grinding and while I can understand that it can suck, the thing is you can do so doing things you find fun. You can WvW, PvP or just explore the world and get gold. Putting a goal up for yourself is, like, the only thing there is in the current game that gives playing a purpose. Playing for a purpose helps motivate but despite that, playing for a purpose doesn’t have to be un-fun.

I’ll tell you now, if you set your goal to buy a character slot with in-game gold, it won’t take you that long and will feel like some sort of accomplishment to feel more happy about in the long run.

jesters.9406:

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

Whatever your opinion on deleting characters to make new ones, you must remember that that is a totally subjective matter that is going to feel like a much bigger slight to some people who care about the characters they have made in different ways than you might. (For those who do some roleplay, for example, characters make up individual elements of ongoing stories about which they care deeply.)

What’s factually true, however, is that ANet promised something to players at the PAX South announcement of HoT. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLkfXwxLTs from about 16 minutes in). Within the first minutes of the announcement, Mike O’Brien had said that they did not want to produce an expansion that “invalidates all the work that you’ve put in to your existing characters” by forcing anyone to grind for higher level gear or to reach a raised level cap.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

And frankly, I think that seeing that suggestion glibly thrown around by some players is doing a tremendous amount to undermine the sense of friendliness and good will in the community—it creates bitterness and anger between us all by making it seem that some players want others to sacrifice their effort, time, and imaginative/emotional energies, while not acknowledging that they themselves would be outraged if it was suggested that they deleted something from their accounts that they had worked hard for and cared about.

If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

That’s still grinding tho. Grind for it or pay real money, it’s still having to do something additional to access core HoT content.

Posh, you’d have to do the very same thing to enjoy a Dragonhunter if you haven’t got a Guardian yet your character slots are full. The issue of HoT content being something you have to obtain through additional actions isn’t an inherent flaw. To get to the jungle, you likely need to be lvl 80 and if you’re rolling a new character, you’ll need to reach that point somehow…

Funny thing is, I’m not opposed to buying characters slots and I’m not opposed to paying more than $50 for the expansion. If HoT weren’t marketing the Rev as a big part of the new content they were bringing to GW2, this wouldn’t be an issue, but it is being marketed as a big part and it is one of the areas of HoT that has been most hyped.

You’re saying that players shouldn’t feel disappointed that they don’t get access to the thing they’ve gotten hyped up about and shouldn’t be deflated when they’re told they’re not getting the full bang for their (50)bucks? I find this a very strange position to take, to be honest.

Elite Specs are also a big thing marketed in HoT. How would that translate to your argument when the base game only comes with 5 slots?

That being said, I’m not saying nor cannot say what people should feel disappointed in. The only point I argue is the notion that “I don’t have access” which isn’t true.

Leo G.4501:

Would the sentiment that you’re not getting everything new players are getting be a factor for you or others? Or maybe the thought that vets need something exclusive is the culprit here?

Either/Or will work for me.
I will buy HOT if I get an extra character slot that the full version does not get, or the upgrade is $10 cheaper than the full package.

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

Ohoni.6057:

(… )

(…)

(…)

(…)

(…)

Not saying one way or the other, just pointing out that the precedence lacks some equivalency. In those previous GW1 expansions, you literally had to pay more cash to unlock the slot for the new class. That isn’t really the case in GW2.

I also asked previously, what if instead, Anet offered some sales every now and again, leading up to and the first week of HoT release, that lowered the cost of character slots and inventory expansions?

Consider it a compromise. Even if you’re a new player, it might show some good will to use the gem store when specials are offered. Not only that, it’d definitely get some sales for players still on the fence about purchasing the expansion, allowing them to buy some slots if they might want to buy the expansion to play Revenant in the future. Inventory expansion slots would also help newbies but also could be useful to the less-rich vets who have a load of un-upgraded characters that they are taking into HoT content.

Would the sentiment that you’re not getting everything new players are getting be a factor for you or others? Or maybe the thought that vets need something exclusive is the culprit here?

I will point out that those GW1 campaigns actually cost less than what is being asked for HoT and leave that at that.

As for sales, yeah, they’re great! I love ‘em! I take advantage of them plenty, but _not when I’m already paying for the next part of the franchise._

Personally, as I’ve said in other comments, new players getting a good deal is not a problem for me. I like the idea of the bundle and I think it’s a great incentive, I’m not buttmad that as an established player I’m not getting the same as a new player, not at all. I am disappointed that as an established player it feels like I’ve been hyped up, gotten excited, wanted to throw my money at Anet, and then got to the pre-purchase page only to realise there’s not only small print for established players who want to try out one of HoT’s biggest selling features but that small print is actually something you need to read between the lines to find. So instead it feels like this:

$50 for the expansion + original game as a free bonus! (Some restrictions apply. Established players will need to pay an additional $10 for a character slot, delete a pre-existing character, or grind for gold or spend an additional $25 for a version of HoT that includes a slot and extra stuff! Sales on character slots may go on sale at some point, but since slots have not been on sale since Feb 2014 to suddenly have a sale on character slots now might be seen as shady and not in good faith. Either way, if you’re already playing the game you need to jump through some more hoops. Sry we ain’t sry! pls keep giving us money!)

I do love this game and I do love Anet and I don’t want extra goodies or special treatment for my time as an established player. I’ve gotten a lot for what I paid so I don’t feel like I’ve banked up secret reward points or something for spending money.

What I do think is that I shouldn’t feel like I need to jump through more hoops to access the shiny new content that has been marketed to me. It’s utterly bizarre and leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Angelica Dream.7103:

Leo G.4501:

Would the sentiment that you’re not getting everything new players are getting be a factor for you or others? Or maybe the thought that vets need something exclusive is the culprit here?

Either/Or will work for me.
I will buy if I get an extra character slot that the full version does not get, or the upgrade is $10 cheaper than the full package.

So your solution is, you want new players to pay $10 more than you? Because if the expansion is expressed as costing $50, then that might end up making new players pay $60.

Leo G.4501:

hibari.9836:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

snip

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

I’ve been playing this game for about six months. 140-150 gold represents 90% of the gold I have managed to get during the entire time that I have been playing the game!

Does that sound to you like it in any way honors the time and effort someone like me has put in? Please do not make the mistake of thinking that just because you’ve been playing the game for years or do frequent dungeon runs or because your coffers are full for whatever reason that 140-150 gold is a small or easy number for all of us. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do.

For many many players who’ve come to the franchise in the past few months—just long enough to start to get really invested in the game but not long enough that we’ve got cred as vets—that’s a big number. And we are really not the people you should be looking to alienate in this conversation.

There’s many ways of obtaining gold. Once you play for a while, you start to have less and less things to spend gold on and you have to find ways to waste your gold. I know, when I was playing the game, I ended up wasting lots of gold on crafting. I still sometimes burn gold on crafting but I can also make gold through crafting.

If 150 gold is 90% of your entire income up to your 6 months of playing, it only gets worse and you only get more gold as time progresses…there’s always things in the game that straight up give you gems…

But all that aside, lots of people complain about grinding and while I can understand that it can suck, the thing is you can do so doing things you find fun. You can WvW, PvP or just explore the world and get gold. Putting a goal up for yourself is, like, the only thing there is in the current game that gives playing a purpose. Playing for a purpose helps motivate but despite that, playing for a purpose doesn’t have to be un-fun.

I’ll tell you now, if you set your goal to buy a character slot with in-game gold, it won’t take you that long and will feel like some sort of accomplishment to feel more happy about in the long run.

Let me reiterate since it did not come across the first time: Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do. Also, please do not be condescending. Please do not try to tell me how to have fun or what my in-game goals or play style should be.

When I said that this is creating resentment and negativity in the community: congratulations! You are doing it! Whether or not you intend to, it is what you are doing right now with a comment like this!

I have a very clear sense of my in-game goals, thanks. I already have things that I am working towards (like full crafted sets of exotics for all of my characters—some of whom, I might add, I am still leveling or only just now got to 80—Mawdrey, particular bits of ascended gear, Vision of the Mists, etc. etc.). I don’t need you to tell me to play for a purpose.

But what you are really telling me is play for the purpose I think you should be playing for, not that you think you should be playing for.

And you know what, all this (as well as your earlier dismissive comments on the topic of grinding) aside, what ANet promised for GW2 from the point of their original manifesto was a no-grind philosophy. (See Colin Johanson’s “I swung a sword” dialog in the manifesto trailer.) The fact that you want to disregard that and tell players to grind like it’s a fact of life does not actually trump what the devs have promised this game to be. Sorry if I don’t think that your voice trumps theirs.

Leo G.4501:

Angelica Dream.7103:

Leo G.4501:

Would the sentiment that you’re not getting everything new players are getting be a factor for you or others? Or maybe the thought that vets need something exclusive is the culprit here?

Either/Or will work for me.
I will buy if I get an extra character slot that the full version does not get, or the upgrade is $10 cheaper than the full package.

So your solution is, you want new players to pay $10 more than you? Because if the expansion is expressed as costing $50, then that might end up making new players pay $60.

Hot is over priced as it is. I think very few people will disagree with that. Though I will pay the price with no complaints.
What I want is an expansion for an existing account to be cheaper than a full account with both games. Or the expansion to have an additional character slot that the full games does not.
If Anet does not feel that the people that supported them up to now is worth “Thanks Guys” then maybe it is time to find a company that appreciates the players that does.
I have bought hundreds of dollars a year in Gems. You would think Anet could give us a slot that would cost them nothing.

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

But you don’t have to delete any characters. That is an option, but far from the only option. You can also buy a new slot with cash of gold. And don’t come back with “but I don’t want to buy a slot,” because that just takes the argument into circles. The fact remains that they never promised you a free character slot, you are not entitled to one.

So according to you, everyone is entitled to get what they paid for…except for some people who should pay an inflated price to gain access to the same thing..

No, everyone is entitled to get what they pay for. Everyone is NOT entitled to get what they didn’t pay for. If you only bought the $50 HoT SKU, then you bought, and are entitled to roll a Revenant into any free character slot you may have, however you acquire it. You are NOT entitled to receive a free character slot for that price.

Whether you like to admit it or not (or even know), Anet has set a precedence in the past of providing a character slots equivalent to the new classes they released per campaign to allow players to get the most out of the new content they’ve released.

Not with Guild Wars 2 they haven’t. This is their first expansion, so there is no precedent, and the initial launch included eight classes with only five slots. Even if they had set a precedent, that does not mean people are entitled to that precedent never changing. And if your argument is that people should be able to at least try out the Revenant before making a final choice, everyone who pre-orders does get a “beta” character slot, with which they can try out the Revenant.

Honestly, you and others are acting like wanting to access content we’ve paid for straight out the box for the price we’re paying is like pre-established players are demanding a precursor because they’ve been around longer. THAT is entitlement, THIS is asking for EQUAL ACCESS TO CONTENT.

It is not asking for equal access to content, and it is entitlement. New players only get five character slots. You got those two, that is equal. You are asking for a sixth, that is not equal, you are not entitled to it.

That’s still grinding tho. Grind for it or pay real money, it’s still having to do something additional to access core HoT content.

But this argument is nonsense. If you use that as precedent, they you could make the same case that they should give at least nine total slots, so that you can make Elite spec versions of each class, or that you should be able to auto-level to 80 so that you don’t have to “grind” levels out on a new character before being able to participate in Maguuma content. Or that you shouldn’t have to “grind out” mastery levels to gain all the gliders and other perks currently locked behind mastery tracks.

Their promise to you is simple, if you do not buy HoT, then you will NOT be able to have the various features exclusive to HoT. If you do buy HoT, then you’re able to EARN the various features that are a part of HoT, but there is absolutely no guarantee whatsoever that you will ever actually acquire them if you don’t do whatever is required to earn them.

I would love for you to provide one single quote in which anyone from anet says what you are saying, because the fact of it is that they refused to give a straight answer on the thread that was created about the very subject of HoT having a character slot included or not and are marking the new profession as a core feature of the expansion.

I’m not saying anything that needs “quotations” to assert. I’m just explaining the exact terms of the pre-order process. You can find them on the HoT Preorder page. The $50 purchase entitles you to the HoT expansion. At no point in the HoT expansion do they promise a free character slot.

I will point out that those GW1 campaigns actually cost less than what is being asked for HoT and leave that at that.

And they were released in a time of lower development costs and lower quality, so obviously the newer product would cost more money. Burning Crusade cost $35, Warlords of Draenor contains the same amount of content for $50. Prices go up.

jesters.9406:

I will point out that those GW1 campaigns actually cost less than what is being asked for HoT and leave that at that.

True. Following these differences will likely lead to more answers. The various differences might lead you down the line from voice acting and new code being the cause of greater cost…but I wouldn’t take “Anet trying to squeeze every dime” off the table either.

As for sales, yeah, they’re great! I love ‘em! I take advantage of them plenty, but _not when I’m already paying for the next part of the franchise._

Personally, as I’ve said in other comments, new players getting a good deal is not a problem for me. I like the idea of the bundle and I think it’s a great incentive, I’m not buttmad that as an established player I’m not getting the same as a new player, not at all. I am disappointed that as an established player it feels like I’ve been hyped up, gotten excited, wanted to throw my money at Anet, and then got to the pre-purchase page only to realise there’s not only small print for established players who want to try out one of HoT’s biggest selling features but that small print is actually something you need to read between the lines to find. So instead it feels like this:

$50 for the expansion + original game as a free bonus! (Some restrictions apply. Established players will need to pay an additional $10 for a character slot, delete a pre-existing character, or grind for gold or spend an additional $25 for a version of HoT that includes a slot and extra stuff! Sales on character slots may go on sale at some point, but since slots have not been on sale since Feb 2014 to suddenly have a sale on character slots now might be seen as shady and not in good faith. Either way, if you’re already playing the game you need to jump through some more hoops. Sry we ain’t sry! pls keep giving us money!)

I do love this game and I do love Anet and I don’t want extra goodies or special treatment for my time as an established player. I’ve gotten a lot for what I paid so I don’t feel like I’ve banked up secret reward points or something for spending money.

What I do think is that I shouldn’t feel like I need to jump through more hoops to access the shiny new content that has been marketed to me. It’s utterly bizarre and leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Heh interesting.

I think, in the long run, offering sales on such would be far more beneficial to the playerbase as a whole…yet you think that is simply jumping through hoops? I can see it that way. Honestly, I think offering sales on character slots actually devalues the other packages which might make the buyers of those disgruntled but you don’t believe so? The character slots exist in the other packages for the very purpose of enticing players to buy them over the base package but I think that their value (along with the base package) doesn’t reflect the price tag. The existance of a character slot or not, I feel, isn’t the deciding factor here. However, with the info from the last Point of Interest, I’m starting to soften on my stance.

Playing the Revenant isn’t the be-all-end-all point of HoT. People have just got it in their head that it is and thus must be able to play Revenant. If that’s so, you should be expected to pay more than players, like me, who do not want to play Revenant.

That said, if HoT had a new race available, like Tengu, I would have no qualms buying a new character slot or just buying the $75 package because that’s how bad I want it (I’d likely have just prepared a couple slots in advance). If Revenant is that important to you, why do you feel you shouldn’t pay more?

Angelica Dream.7103:

Leo G.4501:

Angelica Dream.7103:

Leo G.4501:

Would the sentiment that you’re not getting everything new players are getting be a factor for you or others? Or maybe the thought that vets need something exclusive is the culprit here?

Either/Or will work for me.
I will buy if I get an extra character slot that the full version does not get, or the upgrade is $10 cheaper than the full package.

So your solution is, you want new players to pay $10 more than you? Because if the expansion is expressed as costing $50, then that might end up making new players pay $60.

Hot is over priced as it is. I think very few people will disagree with that. Though I will pay the price with no complaints.
What I want is an expansion for an existing account to be cheaper than a full account with both games. Or the expansion to have an additional character slot that the full games does not.
If Anet does not feel that the people that supported them up to now is worth “Thanks Guys” then maybe it is time to find a company that appreciates the players that does.
I have bought hundreds of dollars a year in Gems. You would think Anet could give us a slot that would cost them nothing.

So you’d rather pass off more cost onto the new player? I think that’s the tactic Anet is specifically avoiding. I mean, they could have easily not included the base game and charged that seperately, but they already said they are not doing that so new players can easily jump right in.

As for the rest of the argument, do you not feel that offering sales is a way of saying “Thanks Guys”? They don’t have to but they do that, not only to make more profits, but to also give players what they want. Wouldn’t offering character slots on sale be the equivalent?

As for the character slot costing them nothing, Anet obviously put it in the $75 package to entice you to spend more money. If they are giving the extra slot to the $50 package, it will drive down their sales of the bigger packages, which does cost them something.

Ohoni.6057:

By ANet’s own words, then, spoken in the spirit of their original game manifesto, they wanted to honor the time and effort players have put into their characters thus far, even as the expansion was released. Asking anyone to delete a character in order to gain access to the expansion’s offerings obviously flies directly in the face of that.

But you don’t have to delete any characters. That is an option, but far from the only option. You can also buy a new slot with cash of gold. And don’t come back with “but I don’t want to buy a slot,” because that just takes the argument into circles.

I won’t come back with “but I don’t want to buy a slot with gold.” I will come back with “I don’t have that much gold.” That would represent 90% of the gold I have managed to get in the entire time I have been playing (which is about 6 months). And you can bet that there are plenty of people who’ve started playing since the start of this year whose gold is less than mine.

You are trying to wiggle away from the fact that the price it costs to gain equal access to the content of the expansion comes out gated at a $10 higher for some players than for others, and that that is an in-built inequity in value for money. Telling people that there are ways they ought to work around that inequity, trying to trivialize it, or suggest it should be ignored/doesn’t matter is just sticking your fingers in your ears and trying to avoid the issue.

“Entitlement” generally means the feeling that one is owed something. It is not always a bad thing, since in certain cases a person is “owed” something. However, the word is used more often negatively due to it being more memorable and just dang annoying coming from people who aren’t owed a thing.

As for who has an entitlement problem, there’s a pretty easy test. If someone is saying ANet owes them crap (like char slots) and is tossing out terms like “ANet’s got no right to do this,” that person has an entitlement problem. If a person is saying $50 is too much as is, but they’d get it if there was a bit more to it (like char slots), then there’s no entitlement problem. It’s the diference between demanding something and offering a deal.

I actually think people accusing others of not knowing what the word means tend to have that problem themselves. Of course, it might just be me having a hard time seeing how it would get misunderstood. Guess common sense simply isn’t that common.

hibari.9836:

Leo G.4501:

hibari.9836:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

snip

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

I’ve been playing this game for about six months. 140-150 gold represents 90% of the gold I have managed to get during the entire time that I have been playing the game!

Does that sound to you like it in any way honors the time and effort someone like me has put in? Please do not make the mistake of thinking that just because you’ve been playing the game for years or do frequent dungeon runs or because your coffers are full for whatever reason that 140-150 gold is a small or easy number for all of us. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do.

For many many players who’ve come to the franchise in the past few months—just long enough to start to get really invested in the game but not long enough that we’ve got cred as vets—that’s a big number. And we are really not the people you should be looking to alienate in this conversation.

There’s many ways of obtaining gold. Once you play for a while, you start to have less and less things to spend gold on and you have to find ways to waste your gold. I know, when I was playing the game, I ended up wasting lots of gold on crafting. I still sometimes burn gold on crafting but I can also make gold through crafting.

If 150 gold is 90% of your entire income up to your 6 months of playing, it only gets worse and you only get more gold as time progresses…there’s always things in the game that straight up give you gems…

But all that aside, lots of people complain about grinding and while I can understand that it can suck, the thing is you can do so doing things you find fun. You can WvW, PvP or just explore the world and get gold. Putting a goal up for yourself is, like, the only thing there is in the current game that gives playing a purpose. Playing for a purpose helps motivate but despite that, playing for a purpose doesn’t have to be un-fun.

I’ll tell you now, if you set your goal to buy a character slot with in-game gold, it won’t take you that long and will feel like some sort of accomplishment to feel more happy about in the long run.

Let me reiterate since it did not come across the first time: Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do. Also, please do not be condescending. Please do not try to tell me how to have fun or what my in-game goals or play style should be.

When I said that this is creating resentment and negativity in the community: congratulations! You are doing it! Whether or not you intend to, it is what you are doing right now with a comment like this!

I have a very clear sense of my in-game goals, thanks. I already have things that I am working towards (like full crafted sets of exotics for all of my characters—some of whom, I might add, I am still leveling or only just now got to 80—Mawdrey, particular bits of ascended gear, Vision of the Mists, etc. etc.). I don’t need you to tell me to play for a purpose.

But what you are really telling me is play for the purpose I think you should be playing for, not that you think you should be playing for.

And you know what, all this (as well as your earlier dismissive comments on the topic of grinding) aside, what ANet promised for GW2 from the point of their original manifesto was a no-grind philosophy. (See Colin Johanson’s “I swung a sword” dialog in the manifesto trailer.) The fact that you want to disregard that and tell players to grind like it’s a fact of life does not actually trump what the devs have promised this game to be. Sorry if I don’t think that your voice trumps theirs.

You are completely wrong. God job on accusing me of “grinding dungeons” or telling you to play the game a certain way. It’s clear as day that you are not interested in listening to reasons, ankitten ot open to alternatives.

You can easily get the gold needed by not grinding, and just playing and having a good time. It’s telling that you are so fanatic about your own ways instead of listening to veterans who have more experience than you and who want to help you. Instead you shoot people down, accuse them with a hostile victimized toxic tone.

Leo G.4501:

jesters.9406:

I will point out that those GW1 campaigns actually cost less than what is being asked for HoT and leave that at that.

…… If Revenant is that important to you, why do you feel you shouldn’t pay more?

Shortest answer, because I’ve rambled a lot in this thread already: I would like the option to play the content that is being strongly marketed to me when I pay money for it. HoT has a lot going on in it, but so much of the marketing and hype has undeniably been about this new class.

If I (or anyone else) decides not to play a Rev and decide instead to roll something else, fine, but for me it comes down to the fact that the option should be there when I’ve bought the product and not through me having to pay more on top of the product I’ve already just paid for.

Kury.8210:

“Entitlement” generally means the feeling that one is owed something. It is not always a bad thing, since in certain cases a person is “owed” something. However, the word is used more often negatively due to it being more memorable and just dang annoying coming from people who aren’t owed a thing.

As for who has an entitlement problem, there’s a pretty easy test. If someone is saying ANet owes them crap (like char slots) and is tossing out terms like “ANet’s got no right to do this,” that person has an entitlement problem. If a person is saying $50 is too much as is, but they’d get it if there was a bit more to it (like char slots), then there’s no entitlement problem. It’s the diference between demanding something and offering a deal.

I actually think people accusing others of not knowing what the word means tend to have that problem themselves. Of course, it might just be me having a hard time seeing how it would get misunderstood. Guess common sense simply isn’t that common.

What you are saying is true, and an acute observation.

If I buy a sandwich, I am entitled to having the sandwich. As you said, by this definition entitlement is just a state of expectations. But you’re seeing people trying drive a semantic argument about value. They are doing this because they want to take the discussion away from the elements that make them hypocritical;
1) That this is a common pratice in the MMORPG genre, and that it is not uncommon in many businesses to roll in a base product with a new product,
2) That they themselves got a sweet deal on GW2 out of nowhere, that people days before was cheated out off, thus there are people who paid 40 dollars the day before who have every right to drive the same argument at those that are complaining now.
3) Trying to start a discussion talking about veterans are one singular group who are owed something
4) pleading ignorance and deafness to the outrageous costs of game development, and taking all the back end systems that goes on behind the scenes, they don’t see as features and thus claim that they dont basically exist or are “worth it” because it doesn’t fit their idea of what a proper expansion should be.

hibari.9836:

Leo G.4501:

hibari.9836:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

snip

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

I’ve been playing this game for about six months. 140-150 gold represents 90% of the gold I have managed to get during the entire time that I have been playing the game!

Does that sound to you like it in any way honors the time and effort someone like me has put in? Please do not make the mistake of thinking that just because you’ve been playing the game for years or do frequent dungeon runs or because your coffers are full for whatever reason that 140-150 gold is a small or easy number for all of us. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do.

For many many players who’ve come to the franchise in the past few months—just long enough to start to get really invested in the game but not long enough that we’ve got cred as vets—that’s a big number. And we are really not the people you should be looking to alienate in this conversation.

There’s many ways of obtaining gold. Once you play for a while, you start to have less and less things to spend gold on and you have to find ways to waste your gold. I know, when I was playing the game, I ended up wasting lots of gold on crafting. I still sometimes burn gold on crafting but I can also make gold through crafting.

If 150 gold is 90% of your entire income up to your 6 months of playing, it only gets worse and you only get more gold as time progresses…there’s always things in the game that straight up give you gems…

But all that aside, lots of people complain about grinding and while I can understand that it can suck, the thing is you can do so doing things you find fun. You can WvW, PvP or just explore the world and get gold. Putting a goal up for yourself is, like, the only thing there is in the current game that gives playing a purpose. Playing for a purpose helps motivate but despite that, playing for a purpose doesn’t have to be un-fun.

I’ll tell you now, if you set your goal to buy a character slot with in-game gold, it won’t take you that long and will feel like some sort of accomplishment to feel more happy about in the long run.

Let me reiterate since it did not come across the first time: Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do. Also, please do not be condescending. Please do not try to tell me how to have fun or what my in-game goals or play style should be.

When I said that this is creating resentment and negativity in the community: congratulations! You are doing it! Whether or not you intend to, it is what you are doing right now with a comment like this!

Interesting. The thing is, I’m on your side. The only thing I try to do is try to keep people in perspective. I want the price of HoT to come down too, but I don’t want the price to drop to be taken as a victory for the mass of posters having a hissy-fit on the forums. I want the price to come down because Anet understands that the content in it isn’t expansive enough to warrant the price tag (although they could also just put more stuff in it or discuss with us the future and timeline of additions for updates).

If I’m the one causing negativity and resentment in the community, then what do you think the people crying about quitting the game, calling Anet crooks and money grubbers is accomplishing? So me being polite, civil and objective is negative but people whining and being kitten are positive? I’m not even calling people out on their BS arguments, I’m trying to offer compromise and discussion. I could be far more negative than I am since the whole debacle is mostly a clusterkitten of whining about what new players get that you don’t but I’M NOT.

As for the rest of your post, I will refrain from speaking specifically to your or your goals. I’m just expressing my opinion, mostly. But I’ll conclude by saying, bringing up an old statement from a manifesto while misinterpreting it is only going to bear negativity and arguments. It’s the foundation of most of the whole issue with the cost of HoT and is the basis of what alot of these fruitless internet ranting stems from. Say what you will, but I’d refrain from shanking a fellow dissatisfied customer in the kidney with your remarks. The activity of business is cut-throat enough without customers turning on each other even more.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

You are completely wrong. God job on accusing me of “grinding dungeons” or telling you to play the game a certain way. It’s clear as day that you are not interested in listening to reasons, ankitten ot open to alternatives.

You can easily get the gold needed by not grinding, and just playing and having a good time. It’s telling that you are so fanatic about your own ways instead of listening to veterans who have more experience than you and who want to help you. Instead you shoot people down, accuse them with a hostile victimized toxic tone.

That reply wasn’t to a comment of yours? Unless you’re here on two different accounts, I guess.

But for the record, I listen to veterans who I know and who know me, and whose advice I therefore trust (because not all advice is good). I happen to live with a veteran player who has been playing GW2 since its pre-launch beta weekends and who played GW1 before that. I evaluate suggestions and take advice from people who say convincing things and whose advice seems sound. And you, sir or madam, simply have not said things that put you in that category.

hibari.9836:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

You are completely wrong. God job on accusing me of “grinding dungeons” or telling you to play the game a certain way. It’s clear as day that you are not interested in listening to reasons, ankitten ot open to alternatives.

You can easily get the gold needed by not grinding, and just playing and having a good time. It’s telling that you are so fanatic about your own ways instead of listening to veterans who have more experience than you and who want to help you. Instead you shoot people down, accuse them with a hostile victimized toxic tone.

That reply wasn’t to a comment of yours? Unless you’re here on two different accounts, I guess.

But for the record, I listen to veterans who I know and who know me, and whose advice I therefore trust (because not all advice is good). I happen to live with a veteran player who has been playing GW2 since its pre-launch beta weekends and who played GW1 before that. I evaluate suggestions and take advice from people who say convincing things and whose advice seems sound. And you, sir or madam, simply have not said things that put you in that category.

I am referring to the post you made before directed at me:

hibari.9836:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

hibari.9836:

Smitten.3076:

Some of us truly have no idea why not getting a character slot/gems is an issue.

snip

He is not referring to deleting a character. He is saying why are you ignoring the option you have of simply converting 140-150 gold to 800 gems and buy your character slot with no real money? Nothing about that is unreasonable.

I’ve been playing this game for about six months. 140-150 gold represents 90% of the gold I have managed to get during the entire time that I have been playing the game!

Does that sound to you like it in any way honors the time and effort someone like me has put in? Please do not make the mistake of thinking that just because you’ve been playing the game for years or do frequent dungeon runs or because your coffers are full for whatever reason that 140-150 gold is a small or easy number for all of us. Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone does (or should) play the same way that you do.

For many many players who’ve come to the franchise in the past few months—just long enough to start to get really invested in the game but not long enough that we’ve got cred as vets—that’s a big number. And we are really not the people you should be looking to alienate in this conversation.

Which basically is you painting a big brush over me, while simultaneously telling the other guy to stop acting like he is telling you how to play.
It is okay to say that you don’t like the alternatives offered, but that is not what you are doing. You’re throwing rocks after people, and pretending you know what they are about.
I don’t grind at all and it offends me that you are calling me out about that. It’s pretentious as hell.

Hmm, I got 16 character slots, so, wheres the argument? Birthdays in GW2 are completely and utterly useless. I just would say when expansion came out, and didn’t have a spare character slot. Hmm, what guardian or warrior do I not use. Ok, I don’t play this one, strip bare naked, delete, and make new character with new class. So, honestly, stop complaining. I leveled over 30 characters with 100% map completion just for unlimited gifts of exploration and zone completions. Honestly, till you done this, you ain’t got much ground to stand on. Not to mention, I got 2 of every craft at 400/500 respectively. So, this whole entitlement stuff as I said in another post is butternuts under the bridge.

Leo G.4501:

Interesting. The thing is, I’m on your side. The only thing I try to do is try to keep people in perspective. I want the price of HoT to come down too, but I don’t want the price to drop to be taken as a victory for the mass of posters having a hissy-fit on the forums. I want the price to come down because Anet understands that the content in it isn’t expansive enough to warrant the price tag (although they could also just put more stuff in it or discuss with us the future and timeline of additions for updates).

If I’m the one causing negativity and resentment in the community, then what do you think the people crying about quitting the game, calling Anet crooks and money grubbers is accomplishing? So me being polite, civil and objective is negative but people whining and being kitten are positive? I’m not even calling people out on their BS arguments, I’m trying to offer compromise and discussion. I could be far more negative than I am since the whole debacle is mostly a clusterkitten of whining about what new players get that you don’t but I’M NOT.

As for the rest of your post, I will refrain from speaking specifically to your or your goals. I’m just expressing my opinion, mostly. But I’ll conclude by saying, bringing up an old statement from a manifesto while misinterpreting it is only going to bear negativity and arguments. It’s the foundation of most of the whole issue with the cost of HoT and is the basis of what alot of these fruitless internet ranting stems from. Say what you will, but I’d refrain from shanking a fellow dissatisfied customer in the kidney with your remarks. The activity of business is cut-throat enough without customers turning on each other even more.

Honestly, it’s not my intention to shank you or create more tension. You’ve just happened to hit a spot that’s been made very sore in all of this kerfuffle, and maybe that’s the point. From my perspective, much of the negativity is coming from the number of comments from people glibly saying “just delete a character to free up a slot or buy one for gold, it’s no big deal, just shut up about it!” I do appreciate that you have not directly said “it’s no big deal, just shut up about it,” but that sentiment now feels implicit in being told that if I played in X, Y, or Z ways the issue would disappear. (It wouldn’t, of course, the issue still exists even if it’s more easily managed by some people than by others.)

Frankly, there is no time when being told “X amount isn’t that much” isn’t going to cause bad blood, and that’s the case whether someone’s saying “$10 isn’t that much” or “150 gold isn’t that much” or “$50 isn’t that much,” because those are all relative and subjective statements. All of them are going to make people whose means are lower feel very slighted, dismissed, and judged.

Of course people calling ANet names and throwing angry fits aren’t being positive! But from my perspective the attitude of “ugh, just delete a character or buy a slot with gold!” is the equal serving of negativity from the other side. (See, for example, the comment immediately above this one.) And whether or not you agree with my interpretation, I do think that ANet’s statements about honoring effort put into characters at the HoT announcement contravene the expectation that anyone go back to zero with characters/their account in order to continue their progression in the expansion.

Usually the term entitlement is used by North Americans. I come across it in other game, political and news forums quite often. People who use it tend to believe in a dog-eat-dog world or survival of the fittest, and is used derogatively to denote people who want something for nothing. But is commonly brought up in relation to any social benefits provided by the government to people who have hit a bad patch or live in poverty. Likely this is not applied to people who have served in the military. Personally I think it is related to the delusional notion of the American dream. No offense intended.

I won’t come back with “but I don’t want to buy a slot with gold.” I will come back with “I don’t have that much gold.” That would represent 90% of the gold I have managed to get in the entire time I have been playing (which is about 6 months). And you can bet that there are plenty of people who’ve started playing since the start of this year whose gold is less than mine.

So save up until you can buy it with gold, or find a minimum wage job and work it for about an hour, and you’ll have enough to buy the slot with cash. The fact is, you have options available, maybe not on day one, but again, buying HoT gives you the opportunity to earn these things, but you still have to earn them.

You are trying to wiggle away from the fact that the price it costs to gain equal access to the content of the expansion comes out gated at a $10 higher for some players than for others, and that that is an in-built inequity in value for money.

There is no inequality. Every player has an equal opportunity to get what they want. Some players have used that opportunity unwisely, and filled up characters slots they might now prefer to be empty, . . .

“but I don’t want to delete one of my characters!”

“Third base!”

But from my perspective the attitude of “ugh, just delete a character or buy a slot with gold!” is the equal serving of negativity from the other side.

Except that it’s not. We’re just telling you that you have options, and that you’re not entitled to have better options than that just because you want better options. You are not owed better options, and ANet is not wrong for not offering you better options. Once you accept that we can move forward.

And whether or not you agree with my interpretation, I do think that ANet’s statements about honoring effort put into characters at the HoT announcement contravene the expectation that anyone go back to zero with characters/their account in order to continue their progression in the expansion.

But you don’t have to do that, it’s just ONE of your available options, and one that the rest of us have been dealing with for three years if we’ve ever wanted to make a new character. If that option is unpalatable, you can either earn enough gold to buy a character slot, which you seem unwilling to do, or earn enough money to buy an additional slot. These are your options, and they are not “wrong” options.

Leo G.4501:

So you’d rather pass off more cost onto the new player? I think that’s the tactic Anet is specifically avoiding. I mean, they could have easily not included the base game and charged that seperately, but they already said they are not doing that so new players can easily jump right in.

As for the rest of the argument, do you not feel that offering sales is a way of saying “Thanks Guys”? They don’t have to but they do that, not only to make more profits, but to also give players what they want. Wouldn’t offering character slots on sale be the equivalent?

As for the character slot costing them nothing, Anet obviously put it in the $75 package to entice you to spend more money. If they are giving the extra slot to the $50 package, it will drive down their sales of the bigger packages, which does cost them something.

Leo G, stop putting words in my mouth. there is no passing costs off. I have no idea where you get that. Now I will try one more time to explain this.

OK the core game has a value. Otherwise it would be worthless. In which case Anet should be giving it away at no cost to anyone that wants it. No matter if they buy anything at all. Just free. I perceive that cost to be $10 the price of the recent sale.

So if Anet is selling the Core version (which has 4 character slots) for $50. Then they should be selling me the expansion for $50-$10 = $40. Or I would pay the $50 with a free expansion slot.

I do not see why you don’t see my point. As a valuable customer I feel cheated.

xeerus.1645:

Hmm, I got 16 character slots, so, wheres the argument? Birthdays in GW2 are completely and utterly useless. I just would say when expansion came out, and didn’t have a spare character slot. Hmm, what guardian or warrior do I not use. Ok, I don’t play this one, strip bare naked, delete, and make new character with new class. So, honestly, stop complaining. I leveled over 30 characters with 100% map completion just for unlimited gifts of exploration and zone completions. Honestly, till you done this, you ain’t got much ground to stand on. Not to mention, I got 2 of every craft at 400/500 respectively. So, this whole entitlement stuff as I said in another post is butternuts under the bridge.

@xeerus your “Hmm” is very condescending.
I have 17 character with map and story completed. That said I have a uses for them all. Some I park at certain locations for bosses and events, others I have have a special WvW build. Some I just grown attached to, others have very expensive armor that I spent a lot of time and gold to make. So for you to tell me I have to delete one is nonsense.

As I posted above. The base game has a value. Otherwise it should be given away at no cost at all. In fact why doesn’t Ant just gave that game away for free to new players by itself at no charge. Then when the new players want to upgrade they can spend the $50 to buy HOT?

This is not a matter of entitlement. It’s a matter of rewarding loyalty and being fair to people.

Yeah, generally, it’s a completely inappropriate accusation and is very often projection, anyway.

For example, when someone, who owns a no longer available item, tries to accuse other people of acting “entitled”, just because they ask for a chance to get the item, themselves.

They, apparently, don’t see that is it them who is acting entitled, as they think they are entitled to remain one of the special few, who have exclusive access to the item, forever.

Also, it’s quite often (wrongly) used as an insult, when the supposedly “entitled” person involved is, in fact, quite literally, legally entitled to something, as they have paid for it.

These people often, also, throw the words “children” and “babies” around, when they are the ones with an, apparently, only childlike understanding of consumer rights.

In this case, someone is not acting “entitled” by just stating their opinion that there should be some kind of compensation for people who have already bought the game, or by saying that (in their opinion) the price point is too high.

Just because someone else may not agree with that point of view, doesn’t give them the right to call them that.

OK the core game has a value. Otherwise it would be worthless. In which case Anet should be giving it away at no cost to anyone that wants it. No matter if they buy anything at all. Just free. I perceive that cost to be $10 the price of the recent sale.

As I noted earlier, I think by this point the devs really wouldn’t mind giving the game away for free. The reason why they don’t likely has more to do with limiting fraud. See, since they charge something for the game, it means that the person buying it A. has to spend at least a little money, and B. has some sort of payment method on record with them. This is by no means foolproof, but they have expressed in the past that it helps limit scammers/botters/goldsellers/etc.

So offering GW2 “for free” would hurt them in ways beyond just the lost unit sale. Offering it as a freebie to another purchase does not have this same downside, since to get the “free” game, they have to already have spent $50.

This is not a matter of entitlement. It’s a matter of rewarding loyalty and being fair to people.

It can be both. The customer does not have the right to demand a loyalty reward, that is something that the company decides to offer. Demanding such things IS entitlement.

Zanshin.5379:

What kittenes me off the most is people who haven’t spent a dime on the gem store calling veterans who have spent hundreds/thousands of dollars “entitled” and saying they shouldn’t complain because the game is free.

Yes, it infuriates me when people say how much I spent on the game purchase originally as what I have paid since them. In subscription MMOs you are still buying the original product. Gems are pretty much the subscription fee.

Looking at the numbers, I would have paid less per month if I was subscribing to another game. I still prefer GW2 though.

hibari.9836:

snip
If you want to understand why not getting a character slot is such a big deal, then think about some element of your account that you’ve worked hard to get and really care about, and think about how you would feel if it was suggested that you should have it stripped from your account and that you were acting “too entitled” if that upset you or you said it was unfair.

It doesn’t though, I’d just do as I have always done and will be doing … buy another character slot with gold or money. Now if there wasn’t a way to get around the character slot issue … then I would understand, but there is … and this is buy to play game that makes money on convenience and cosmetic items.
/shrug

Ohoni.6057:

The customer does not have the right to demand a loyalty reward, that is something that the company decides to offer. Demanding such things IS entitlement.

I don’t think anyone is demanding anything. But we feel that Anet is giving more value to the new player than people that got them to where they are today.
I am just expressing my disappointment in their judgment.

Sirendor.1394:

This is not a matter of entitlement. It’s a matter of rewarding loyalty and being fair to people.

You couldn’t define entitlement more clearly if you tried. We’ve already abolished these arguments countless times. There is nothing unfair about any of this. A base product is being absorbed into another – The expansion is 50 USD with or without the base game. Its added to avoid cannibalization.

And the rewarding loyalty one is just crazy. The best way they can reward loyalty is to keep making the game great and keeping a service players want to use. Asking for a better deal on a product that does not even have a release date is pointless.

hibari.9836:

Frankly, there is no time when being told “X amount isn’t that much” isn’t going to cause bad blood, and that’s the case whether someone’s saying “$10 isn’t that much” or “150 gold isn’t that much” or “$50 isn’t that much,” because those are all relative and subjective statements. All of them are going to make people whose means are lower feel very slighted, dismissed, and judged.

What you are doing here is that you are trying to assert yourself as a victim in this discussion, removing personal sovereignty and responsibility on yourself. The fact that you are pulling a “everything is relative” statement speaks to this.

People are just telling you that you can go about it. One of my friends doesn’t play much it, but it is completely dooable and reasonable. The expansion doesn’t have a date. The Revernants full feature set has not even been shown yet. So there is time and options.
Im close to 10000 AP. They give you 400 gems for that for free, just for doing things in the game. Thats a half character slot right there. They might even do sales again with character slots off 25% if you want that. Or you can simply wait with buying the expansion until it comes down in price.

Ohoni.6057:

OK the core game has a value. Otherwise it would be worthless. In which case Anet should be giving it away at no cost to anyone that wants it. No matter if they buy anything at all. Just free. I perceive that cost to be $10 the price of the recent sale.

As I noted earlier, I think by this point the devs really wouldn’t mind giving the game away for free. The reason why they don’t likely has more to do with limiting fraud. See, since they charge something for the game, it means that the person buying it A. has to spend at least a little money, and B. has some sort of payment method on record with them. This is by no means foolproof, but they have expressed in the past that it helps limit scammers/botters/goldsellers/etc.

So offering GW2 “for free” would hurt them in ways beyond just the lost unit sale. Offering it as a freebie to another purchase does not have this same downside, since to get the “free” game, they have to already have spent $50.

This is not a matter of entitlement. It’s a matter of rewarding loyalty and being fair to people.

It can be both. The customer does not have the right to demand a loyalty reward, that is something that the company decides to offer. Demanding such things IS entitlement.

That is not true Ohoni. There are many licenses that let programs be given away while the coders still retain all the rights. I am in a programming group and see people do it every day.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Sirendor.1394:

This is not a matter of entitlement. It’s a matter of rewarding loyalty and being fair to people.

You couldn’t define entitlement more clearly if you tried. We’ve already abolished these arguments countless times. There is nothing unfair about any of this. A base product is being absorbed into another – The expansion is 50 USD with or without the base game. Its added to avoid cannibalization.

And the rewarding loyalty one is just crazy. The best way they can reward loyalty is to keep making the game great and keeping a service players want to use. Asking for a better deal on a product that does not even have a release date is pointless.

hibari.9836:

Frankly, there is no time when being told “X amount isn’t that much” isn’t going to cause bad blood, and that’s the case whether someone’s saying “$10 isn’t that much” or “150 gold isn’t that much” or “$50 isn’t that much,” because those are all relative and subjective statements. All of them are going to make people whose means are lower feel very slighted, dismissed, and judged.

What you are doing here is that you are trying to assert yourself as a victim in this discussion, removing personal sovereignty and responsibility on yourself. The fact that you are pulling a “everything is relative” statement speaks to this.

People are just telling you that you can go about it. One of my friends doesn’t play much it, but it is completely dooable and reasonable. The expansion doesn’t have a date. The Revernants full feature set has not even been shown yet. So there is time and options.
Im close to 10000 AP. They give you 400 gems for that for free, just for doing things in the game. Thats a half character slot right there. They might even do sales again with character slots off 25% if you want that. Or you can simply wait with buying the expansion until it comes down in price.

I think you’re missing the point.

It would be better if you just stopped calling people “entitled”.

It’s rude, frankly and on a forum that doesn’t tolerate rudeness, however mild and/or justified the person may have felt in being so, it is inappropriate.

That doesn’t mean you can’t hold your view, or disagree with other people’s views, but it would be better to just stick to the facts, rather than calling people names.

I think that is the point of the thread.

When people have been given three years of nothing but FREE updates and content and turn around and claim that they are OWED for their ‘loyalty’ when a product update is launched and costs money…I think the word (in the negative connotation) ‘entitlement’ is entirely deserved.

Tigaseye.2047:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Sirendor.1394:

This is not a matter of entitlement. It’s a matter of rewarding loyalty and being fair to people.

You couldn’t define entitlement more clearly if you tried. We’ve already abolished these arguments countless times. There is nothing unfair about any of this. A base product is being absorbed into another – The expansion is 50 USD with or without the base game. Its added to avoid cannibalization.

And the rewarding loyalty one is just crazy. The best way they can reward loyalty is to keep making the game great and keeping a service players want to use. Asking for a better deal on a product that does not even have a release date is pointless.

hibari.9836:

Frankly, there is no time when being told “X amount isn’t that much” isn’t going to cause bad blood, and that’s the case whether someone’s saying “$10 isn’t that much” or “150 gold isn’t that much” or “$50 isn’t that much,” because those are all relative and subjective statements. All of them are going to make people whose means are lower feel very slighted, dismissed, and judged.

What you are doing here is that you are trying to assert yourself as a victim in this discussion, removing personal sovereignty and responsibility on yourself. The fact that you are pulling a “everything is relative” statement speaks to this.

People are just telling you that you can go about it. One of my friends doesn’t play much it, but it is completely dooable and reasonable. The expansion doesn’t have a date. The Revernants full feature set has not even been shown yet. So there is time and options.
Im close to 10000 AP. They give you 400 gems for that for free, just for doing things in the game. Thats a half character slot right there. They might even do sales again with character slots off 25% if you want that. Or you can simply wait with buying the expansion until it comes down in price.

I think you’re missing the point.

It would be better if you just stopped calling people “entitled”.

It’s rude, frankly and on a forum that doesn’t tolerate rudeness, however mild and/or justified the person may have felt in being so, it is inappropriate.

That doesn’t mean you can’t hold your view, or disagree with other people’s views, but it would be better to just stick to the facts, rather than calling people names.

I think that is the point of the thread.

Listen, “entitled” is not a slur. It’s a word which basically means “someone who expects something”. That is essentially what entitled means. Trying to turn it into a rude word, or a dirty word or some other form of censorship is bad.

I’m entitled. You are entitled. We all entitled in our daily lives. The discussion, and what is so egregious is about what they are entitled about is fair. That’s essentially it.

entitled is the new abysmal

Huggywuggles.2814:

When people have been given three years of nothing but FREE updates and content and turn around and claim that they are OWED for their ‘loyalty’ when a product update is launched and costs money…I think the word (in the negative connotation) ‘entitlement’ is entirely deserved.

You are aware a lot of those people paid more in gem items, per month, than a subscription fee, aren’t you? Heck in some cases, some of our peers paid more, per month in gem store items, than the cost of buying the game.

How are they ‘entitled’ given your scenario?

Vague Memory.2817:

Usually the term entitlement is used by North Americans. I come across it in other game, political and news forums quite often. People who use it tend to believe in a dog-eat-dog world or survival of the fittest, and is used derogatively to denote people who want something for nothing. But is commonly brought up in relation to any social benefits provided by the government to people who have hit a bad patch or live in poverty. Likely this is not applied to people who have served in the military. Personally I think it is related to the delusional notion of the American dream. No offense intended.

Probably best to avoid political debates, even if it happens to not be your politics. Baits crazy people and off topic. You do fine and make some good truthful points at first, but kind of strike out at the end. If a person disagrees with calling the American dream delusional, telling them no offense isn’t gonna stop someone from being annoyed.

Good analysis on the word’s history though. Despite some possible negativity with the word, my position is call it like it is. Entitlement is the feeling that you’re owed something. If someone just wants ANet to sweeten the deal before they buy, fine. If they feel ANet owes them for years of loyalty, the feel they are owed. They feel they are entitled.

Angelica Dream.7103:

OK the core game has a value. Otherwise it would be worthless. In which case Anet should be giving it away at no cost to anyone that wants it. No matter if they buy anything at all. Just free. I perceive that cost to be $10 the price of the recent sale.

While I believe that you attribute a value to a core account, I am not sure ANet does any longer. Its value to them may be very low to nothing. “Giving it away” may make them more money in HoT sales and gem sales than they would lose by not selling it.

However, there are two excellent reasons to tie the “free core game” to a purchase price rather than making it F2P.

1. Going F2P for core GW2 would provide illicit RMT traffickers with an unending supply of free accounts to peddle gold via chat spam and in-game mail. This would also reduce the effectiveness of account closure as a deterrent to their behavior.
2. Some players would obtain large numbers of accounts and use the login rewards to farm T6 mats via laurel purchase. Anyone who makes gold by selling T6 mats has a vested interest in preventing the proliferation of T6 mat supply.

Maintaining equilibrium in the in-game economy and reducing the impact of gold sellers on QoL both benefit legitimate players.

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there are two excellent reasons to tie the “free core game” to a purchase price rather than making it F2P.

1. Going F2P for core GW2 would provide illicit RMT traffickers with an unending supply of free accounts to peddle gold via chat spam and in-game mail. This would also reduce the effectiveness of account closure as a deterrent to their behavior.
2. Some players would obtain large numbers of accounts and use the login rewards to farm T6 mats via laurel purchase. Anyone who makes gold by selling T6 mats has a vested interest in preventing the proliferation of T6 mat supply.
   .

Two very good points IndigoSundown! Very forward thinking.

Though my point was the core edition has value and already owning it, I should not have to pay for both it and the update a new player will.
Just give me the extra memory slot an I will buy it.

Huggywuggles.2814:

When people have been given three years of nothing but FREE updates and content and turn around and claim that they are OWED for their ‘loyalty’ when a product update is launched and costs money…I think the word (in the negative connotation) ‘entitlement’ is entirely deserved.

I get that you’re enjoying your honeymoon with a new game after Blizz basically sank their own ship, but please don’t pretend to know even half the situation of what’s gone on with this game the past couple years.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Huggywuggles.2814:

When people have been given three years of nothing but FREE updates and content and turn around and claim that they are OWED for their ‘loyalty’ when a product update is launched and costs money…I think the word (in the negative connotation) ‘entitlement’ is entirely deserved.

You are aware a lot of those people paid more in gem items, per month, than a subscription fee, aren’t you? Heck in some cases, some of our peers paid more, per month in gem store items, than the cost of buying the game.

How are they ‘entitled’ given your scenario?

First of all this is a flat out lie. GW2 isn’t even on the top 10 of games that made a profit from micro transactions ( http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/20/5920815/list-of-mmos-by-revenue-warcraft-old-republic )

And even if it was true, buying gems is completely unnecessary and optional. Because you chose to buy a unnecessary luxury, it does not mean you deserve anything. You paid for a thing, got a thing, that’s it. You are not awarded for your “loyalty” when you go buy milk at the grocery store are you? You knew what the deal was. Stop trying to martyr yourself. It’s embarrassing.

And stop with the lies too. Please. For the love of god.

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Huggywuggles.2814:

When people have been given three years of nothing but FREE updates and content and turn around and claim that they are OWED for their ‘loyalty’ when a product update is launched and costs money…I think the word (in the negative connotation) ‘entitlement’ is entirely deserved.

You are aware a lot of those people paid more in gem items, per month, than a subscription fee, aren’t you? Heck in some cases, some of our peers paid more, per month in gem store items, than the cost of buying the game.

How are they ‘entitled’ given your scenario?

First of all this is a flat out lie. GW2 isn’t even on the top 10 of games that made a profit from micro transactions ( http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/20/5920815/list-of-mmos-by-revenue-warcraft-old-republic )

And even if it was true, buying gems is completely unnecessary and optional. Because you chose to buy a unnecessary luxury, it does not mean you deserve anything. You paid for a thing, got a thing, that’s it. You are not awarded for your “loyalty” when you go buy milk at the grocery store are you? You knew what the deal was. Stop trying to martyr yourself. It’s embarrassing.

And stop with the lies too. Please. For the love of god.

Are new customers reward with 2 milk bottles when they go to the grocery store? because if so i think i might have been missing out on good stuff…
So stop with nonsensical analogies alright?
If they can give new customers a incentive to try out their game, why cant they do the same for old customers? Or if it was their plan all along to not give us a character slot, why not be open about it on the discussion thread that was made about that same subject instead of being evasive, it would at least give players a heads up and not making them hopeful?

Here’s what it boils down to for me:

If the xpac standard version comes with a character slot, Anet will get $50.
If it doesn’t, and I need to buy one, they will not get a total of $60. They will get $0.

If I don’t like what they’re selling, I simply won’t buy it.

Angelica Dream.7103:

IndigoSundown.5419:

However, there are two excellent reasons to tie the “free core game” to a purchase price rather than making it F2P.

1. Going F2P for core GW2 would provide illicit RMT traffickers with an unending supply of free accounts to peddle gold via chat spam and in-game mail. This would also reduce the effectiveness of account closure as a deterrent to their behavior.
2. Some players would obtain large numbers of accounts and use the login rewards to farm T6 mats via laurel purchase. Anyone who makes gold by selling T6 mats has a vested interest in preventing the proliferation of T6 mat supply.
   .

Two very good points IndigoSundown! Very forward thinking.

Though my point was the core edition has value and already owning it, I should not have to pay for both it and the update a new player will.
Just give me the extra memory slot an I will buy it.

While the core game may in fact have value to consumers, it’s questionable whether selling it still holds value for ANet. Of course, the value they place on it is the prevailing factor in their pricing decisions. All that said, perceptions of unfairness, whether one can make an argument against them or not, are definitely a problem for companies.

I take it that by “memory slot” you mean character slot? If so, would you feel that your fairness issue has been addressed if both new and existing accounts got an extra slot, or would it have to be that a new account gets the 5 that come with the base game and existing accounts get one?

Personally, a free slot would not sweeten the pot for me. I have unused slots. I’m waiting to see if the content offered justifies the price. From what little I’ve seen about new content (as opposed to new features, which have made up a lot of the info offered), I’m leaning towards no.