Guild Wars 2

I TRIED THAT! We all tried that!

The help is not there! Even guilds that say “We help you people.” Actually don’t.

They spout lame excuses.
They don’t want to do it when it does not give any rewards other than 20 gold a day. They don’t want to do it if they already did it themselves.

Jerus.4350:

Harper.4173:

VodCom.6924:

hybrid.5027:

Jahroots.6791:

I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.

Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.

Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :

• The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
• The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.

The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .

I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.

If I could solo the dungeon and wanted to why would I take others along?

You take people along so that the process goes faster not so you can carry them to easy loot.

Because Lupi hardmode is fun.

Honestly, sometimes it’s fun to make it harder on yourself and people who play poorly can create that situation for you.

so, you are also saying that taking a bad player can make it harder than with fewer – but skilled players.

As for doing this intentionally, well if you want to make things harder for yourself, then go right ahead.

That doesn’t mean anyone else has to.
That also doesn’t mean those who don’t want to should be abused. – By those who want to, or by those you expect a carry.

KSIBBQ.8123:

This Zerker meta has to end. It has killed the diversity too long. This game has such a unique build system, and you should truly be able to play how you want. However, unless you have a pre made, then people will kick you. Start building your toon the way you want to!

You want dps to be nerfed because you ran into a team of sissys in PVE!

Do you know how much the pvp meta is plagued with condis?

You don’t see the whole picture and just jump on the first thing that comes to your mind. There are plenty of groups in pve. Hitting up the forums on the first party you are kicked out from to nerf something that has already been nerfed so much due to pve players.

These changes impact pvp players a lot. So please think twice about things before you go on the forums so quickly. Everyone has been kicked from a party. If you cant get in a try hard group then you don’t need to be in it. Play the game for fun. Not all this complaining as soon as something happens.

But if anet can balance pve zerker and pvp zerker differently then be my guest. Pve needs more variations. Sadly anet doesn’t balance separately which is why im replying to you.

VodCom.6924:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

VodCom.6924:

Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :

• The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
• The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.

The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .

I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.

So to paraphrase this:

Its more fun playing with people who can do the dungeon for me, than with people who expect me to do my share of the effort.

mhmm, and this is why there is argument. People think they should be carried by others. In which case, you should be paying those “solo” players (oh wait, there is QQ about that too).

Don’t make me say what I’ve never thought. I’ve never been carried nor have I paid to be carried.

I’m just saying that some self proclaimed elite players are pain to play with because unless everyone in their group is playing meta they fail miserably. Thus these people resent heavily to carry newbs (simply because they can’t) and newbs then complain about their toxicity. That’s where all this argument comes from.

Don’t make false assumptions or statements about me please.

Wow – just wow.

So you’re saying if people were incredibly good they should carry newbs just for the heck of it?

Even if I could solo dungeons in such an easy way that it took one press of a button to complete it and could basically run it instantly I wouldn’t be taking people along so they can leech off me.

The whole idea that “truly skilled players carry those of lesser skills” is preposterous.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I TRIED THAT! We all tried that!

The help is not there! Even guilds that say “We help you people.” Actually don’t.

They spout lame excuses.
They don’t want to do it when it does not give any rewards other than 20 gold a day. They don’t want to do it if they already did it themselves.

So keep trying?

Some paths are just difficult to get a group together for, even for the filthy zerker elitists. SE2, CoF3, and Aetherpath come to mind. SE2 and CoF3 are really fun paths IMO, but they’re hard to get people to run.

Your best bet is to join a good guild, make some friends by helping your guildies out, then trying to get them to go with you. That’s how I ended up getting my DM back in the day, before I even tried on a set of zerk gear.

The problem is that ArenaNet has done a kitten fine job of alienating players who love dungeons. My guild was a “play-how-you-want” teaching guild for a long time, but now there are maybe a handful of active players around at any given time, and I often can’t get a full group together when I try.

It’s slim pickin’s everywhere, and it has nothing to do with the zerker meta. It’s because the bulk of the dungeoneers have been driven off by boredom.

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Harper.4173:

VodCom.6924:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

VodCom.6924:

Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :

• The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
• The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.

The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .

I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.

So to paraphrase this:

Its more fun playing with people who can do the dungeon for me, than with people who expect me to do my share of the effort.

mhmm, and this is why there is argument. People think they should be carried by others. In which case, you should be paying those “solo” players (oh wait, there is QQ about that too).

Don’t make me say what I’ve never thought. I’ve never been carried nor have I paid to be carried.

I’m just saying that some self proclaimed elite players are pain to play with because unless everyone in their group is playing meta they fail miserably. Thus these people resent heavily to carry newbs (simply because they can’t) and newbs then complain about their toxicity. That’s where all this argument comes from.

Don’t make false assumptions or statements about me please.

Wow – just wow.

So you’re saying if people were incredibly good they should carry newbs just for the heck of it?

Even if I could solo dungeons in such an easy way that it took one press of a button to complete it and could basically run it instantly I wouldn’t be taking people along so they can leech off me.

The whole idea that “truly skilled players carry those of lesser skills” is preposterous.

I think what he’s trying to get at is that they can’t handle playing out of style. The really good players can, but the guy that insists on a zerk only pug can’t.

You can play as zerker using the standard accepted methods or not using them, but the standard methods are heavily centered on a number of things that greatly mitigate the risk.

A lot of folks can’t play zerker ‘high risk’, so they need to play within the set format or they fail.

~~~

Honestly that’s the irony of the situation. The 3-offensive stat gear sets are supposed to be high risk/high reward, but the active defenses (especially the ones built on skills) are just so effective when used in groups to the point that they break the risk/reward calculation.

This allows super fast runs with theoretically high risk builds, and combined with the problems around condition damage (although they’re overstated, that’s a whole different 20 page thread), that leads us to the zerker meta.

We can’t do much to nerf those skills or they become almost useless in solo/duo play, so it’s just something that we have to deal with.

~~~

That being said there’s a huge number of people who can’t function in the truly ‘high risk’ environment.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Jerus.4350:

Harper.4173:

VodCom.6924:

hybrid.5027:

Jahroots.6791:

I can see why people have an issue with the min-maxing ‘meta’ crowd. They’re generally unpleasant to run with. Thing is, no one has to play with them if they don’t want to. Outside of Arah and Fractals the more casual groups typically outnumber those with strict requirements.

Whats funny is, the people who are actually in elite pve guilds almost always run in “anything goes” pugs and aren’t very particular, in many cases they want the other players to be raw since its more fun for them to carry those kinds of groups. The “zerk only 5k AP” people aren’t actually even close to real min-maxers.

Remember that there are two types of “elite” player in GW2 :

• The ones who can solo the path anyway and thus do not see a problem to create the “anything goes” group.
• The ones that can’t solo paths and need zerkers with them to be able to do the path in the first place. These dudes are much much more numerous than soloers.

The former players are nice to play with, the later are a pain in the kitten .

I think some people get confused with these two types of players and tend to argue over different things/people.

If I could solo the dungeon and wanted to why would I take others along?

You take people along so that the process goes faster not so you can carry them to easy loot.

Because Lupi hardmode is fun.

Honestly, sometimes it’s fun to make it harder on yourself and people who play poorly can create that situation for you.

so, you are also saying that taking a bad player can make it harder than with fewer – but skilled players.

As for doing this intentionally, well if you want to make things harder for yourself, then go right ahead.

That doesn’t mean anyone else has to.
That also doesn’t mean those who don’t want to should be abused. – By those who want to, or by those you expect a carry.

Don’t read any more into my response than simply answering the question of “why would you carry someone if you can solo?”

I’m just saying that before I stopped playing to me the most fun was to do Arah paths with people who were worse than I was. PUGadventures were always full of fun.

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

10/10. The entitlement is strong with these Martys, innit?

So we’re boiling down to:

player group 1: zerker players who want to play with other zerker players are bad.
player group 2: zerker players who will carry you are better.
player group 3: those who cannot run without being carried.

So the proposal is group 1 and group 3 are the same group?

So the zerkers have no right to reap the benefits of knowing how to use active defences, and high dps builds.

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

So we’re boiling down to:

player group 1: zerker players who want to play with other zerker players are bad.
player group 2: zerker players who will carry you are better.
player group 3: those who cannot run without being carried.

So the proposal is group 1 and group 3 are the same group?

So the zerkers have no right to reap the benefits of knowing how to use active defences, and high dps builds.

well, I estimate 70 % of all MMORPG forum complaints go like this: other players are able to do something that I am not able to do, so please developers remove or nerf that thing.

dlonie.6547:

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

10/10. The entitlement is strong with these Martys, innit?

Cant believe i missed this masterpiece of a post. x)

Artemis Thuras.8795:

So we’re boiling down to:

player group 1: zerker players who want to play with other zerker players are bad.
player group 2: zerker players who will carry you are better.
player group 3: those who cannot run without being carried.

So the proposal is group 1 and group 3 are the same group?

So the zerkers have no right to reap the benefits of knowing how to use active defences, and high dps builds.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think players fit into neat little bundled grouping, especially not 3. Heck personally I’ve fit into all 3 of those categories at different times. Wanna do fractals? well I’m a 3 honestly. Arah, ok, now I’m a 2 because I find it more fun with people learning. Doing AC, well screwing up there relaly annoys me because of how often I’ve done it, so I’m a 1.

It’d be really nice if people just showed a little respect to each other. If you don’t fit the criteria of the LFG note, don’t join the group. If you join a group that doesn’t have strict criteria in the LFG note, don’t go in there and expect anything.

The only problem here are the people who are jerks on both sides of the issue.

Jerus.4350:

If you don’t fit the criteria of the LFG note, don’t join the group. If you join a group that doesn’t have strict criteria in the LFG note, don’t go in there and expect anything.

Exactly. If I’m asking for a level 80 zerker ele and a level 42 necromancer joins my group and is raging because I kicked him after he refused to swap to his ele, I don’t feel pity for this guy.

€:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

I couldnot have said it any better!

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

This should be /thread

The problem is that meta players are content with the status quo, but you have other players who are angry that their builds aren’t widely accepted and therefore they want to flip the game’s combat system on its head in a way to make their build apparently wanted.

You can see this with the people who say “let’s add more husk mobs” or “mordrem mobs are anti-zerker” – these people are literally just clueless and are only saying they’re anti-zerker because you have to actually use more than two brain cells to kill the mobs while everything else pre-LS in the game doesn’t require any brain cells. So these people would rather ruin the one thing which makes a lot of people even play the game (the combat system) out of sheer selfishness, and then disguise this with excuses like “build diversity” (which already exists).

Speaking of build diversity. In League of Legends there are generally certain items that are staples of certain champions, but depending on the composition of the opposing team and the general state of the game (are you getting dumped by their team or are you miles ahead) you can build more resistances and HP or you can go more glassy and just go raw DPS to gib people in duels and/or team fights. Now if you apply this to guild wars 2 PvE, there is no such thing as magic resistance (unless I ‘ve forgotten since I barely play anymore), though there are HP and armour buffs. So think of GW2 PvE like a never-ending game of LoL – in the early days of the game we were all getting destroyed by dungeons so we stacked tanky items in order to beat the encounters. As we began to learn how to perform in lategame teamfights (or in the case of GW2, learning the encounters) – we decided to swap out tankier pieces for more offensive pieces. Now, rather than diving in to the team fight and just eating CC and damage all day erryday, we manoeuvre around more in order to get a better engage, lock our CC on them before they can do much to us and then kill them. This would be the equivalent of the transition to berserker gear – we learned the encounters, we learned the tells, we now rely more on our active play to beat content and can build more damage items so that we can acheive results faster. Now we’re rolling the other team in every single team fight (…dungeon), are full glass and nothing can stop us – everything is on farm status.

That analogy probably didn’t make too much sense, but anyway. The problem is a content problem. Bringing LoL in to it again, imagine as if this game where we are now destroying them in team fights is basically us VS bots. Now we restart against another team of… I dunno, harder bots or real players, whichever suits the analogy better. We have no idea how they play, how competent they are, etc. We will have to learn everything again. What will happen in this new content is that your experienced players will carry on building glass while your average player will go tankier because they can’t handle it all in full glass themselves.

The problem is not the “meta.” The problem is not gear. The problem is content – we have had the same content for two years, it’s a complete borefest and everyone goes full DPS because it’s ez mode doing content you’ve done a bajillion times already.

time to slink away back to my cave

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

dlonie.6547:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Well the conclusion is clear: those that hate the meta should all form a guild designed to play with those that hate it.

I’m ready to open up my dead bank/RP guild for this purpose if I can get enough to join it.

House of Ishida [Ishi] will become such a guild for those that want to play the game the way it was meant to be played: NO ZERKER META!

Baiting remarks aside…

Speaking as a “filthy zerker elitist” (;P), this sounds like a wonderful idea. And, a much better way to approach the “problem” than complaining about the meta, like so many have done in the past and present (hell, and future).

Edit Might want to mention NA/EU (I’m guessing NA from your sig), and make a new thread about it (though it will quickly get moved out of this subforum if you make it here).

Its not the zerker gear itself that bugs me (I have it too and full set!) as much but its everything that goes with it.

The stacking in a corner and running past mobs that would normally melt anyways in 10 seconds flat no matter what you wear, just to get me killed for being the slower computer specs or class or both. It just doesn’t promote smart play and knowing your class well. Its just stack and Press 1 and sometimes use PBAOES and a heal skill!

And the “play our way or never be in a party.” cause everyone has to “Can’t beat them? Join them.” really makes it impossible to get any groups. Even for non dungeons as no one wants to do anything but beat dungeons as fast as possible over and over for money. I did find better and faster methods for making gold and not have to deal with any of this anymore.

I need achievements for stuff but nope no one wants to do that as they are stuck in this meta and only dungeons matter in GW 2. So I get kittened and rage at the meta for different reasons. And here I am, again.

Also the favoritism of certain paths over others is getting old. I’m lucky I got all 4 arah paths done. It did take me almost 2 years, however. “Sorry we only do 1 and 3 <insert dungeon here>. Path 2 is not worth doing cause money is too hard to get.” Just help the god kitten achievement hunters for once? Maybe they’ll help you in the future in return? Ever thought of that?

I watched an old vid on youtube in the early days of gw 2 with the Old AC path 2 (not the Ghost Busters crap) and it was an hour 30 minutes long run of that path, complete with a skilled and balanced group (save a lv 46 thief Asura that died to every big champ/legendary only casue of his level) that fought everything and did it well. Even Kohler which we now get behind a pillar on the opposite side and have everything on top of us, they fought beautifully in the old way he was fought!

1. they did not stack
2. they did not skip anything
3. they had fun
4. they probably didn’t care about levels or gear.
5. they still did it faster than I ever done it full clear. I took upwards 3-4 hours for me and a PUG.
6. they used every mechanic at their disposal.

This shows true skill that doesn’t exist anymore, all because of a stupid meta.

+1 Thank you for your post.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

So we’re boiling down to:

I think the argument is that, while many types of gear are viable in PvE, zerker is almost universally the correct choice, especially in older content (ie dungeons) and that’s very dull.

Active defenses are good gameplay, but they’re unrelated to stats, which is a lost opportunity for build diversity. Condition damage mechanics are also part of the problem.

Azhure.1857:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

-snip-

+1 Thank you for your post.

You guys should create a guild or something.

perilisk.1874:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

So we’re boiling down to:

I think the argument is that, while many types of gear are viable in PvE, zerker is almost universally the correct choice, especially in older content (ie dungeons) and that’s very dull.

Active defenses are good gameplay, but they’re unrelated to stats, which is a lost opportunity for build diversity. Condition damage mechanics are also part of the problem.

Pretty much. It’s my main issue with the ‘Zerk Meta’.

perilisk.1874:

Active defenses are good gameplay, but they’re unrelated to stats, which is a lost opportunity for build diversity. Condition damage mechanics are also part of the problem.

As long as we accept this game was meant to have an action combat system, the problem is with the stats, not the active defenses. Current gear stats are just too MMO generic and barely add anything to an action oriented gameplay.

Vargamonth.2047:

perilisk.1874:

Active defenses are good gameplay, but they’re unrelated to stats, which is a lost opportunity for build diversity. Condition damage mechanics are also part of the problem.

As long as we accept this game was meant to have an action combat system, the problem is with the stats, not the active defenses. Current gear stats are just too MMO generic and barely add anything to an action oriented gameplay.

I agree.

perilisk.1874:

Active defenses are good gameplay, but they’re unrelated to stats, which is a lost opportunity for build diversity.

Stats aren’t designed to inform your playstyle beyond a preference for direct or condition damage. They are simply a measure of passive defense vs offensive output. That is the status quo as designed.

Saying that the current design is a “wasted opportunity” is basically meaningless. they were designed to serve a function, and they serve it. To suggest that the failure to serve some function they weren’t designed to serve is a problem is an absurdism.

Hammers were designed to hammer nails. The fact that they can’t also wash your clothes doesn’t mean that the hammer inventor wasted an opportunity to revolutionize laundry.

spoj.9672:

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

The alternative to generalizations is specifics, which we’ve touched on some but…

The specific is that many people have experience with folks that insist on zerk meta pugs in game that are exceptionally unpleasant people to deal with, and that there’s a definite link between those demands and the unpleasantness. We can dance around that issue all we want, and put a face on it, but that, I think, is the core problem.

There’s a sub question of ‘why do people insist on dealing with them then?’, but I think that has more to do with human nature in general than with anything else

The people that consistantly witness those things are often to blame. If you are too lazy to make your own group you are obviously going to see it when you force your way into others.

If you make very specific requirements then you are likely to see plenty of people trying to get in anyway and if you are stubborn (you have a right to be) its likely to cause disputes.

The whole thing is unsolvable. You cant fix human stupidity. People are entitled to run their groups however they want. And noone should fault them for it. You certainly shouldnt pin the blame on generalised groups of people.

The true unjustified toxicity comes from an incredibly small minority and its on both sides. The majority of toxicity is caused by people failing to respect each others playstyles. Which is absurd.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

The alternative to generalizations is specifics, which we’ve touched on some but…

The specific is that many people have experience with folks that insist on zerk meta pugs in game that are exceptionally unpleasant people to deal with, and that there’s a definite link between those demands and the unpleasantness. We can dance around that issue all we want, and put a face on it, but that, I think, is the core problem.

There’s a sub question of ‘why do people insist on dealing with them then?’, but I think that has more to do with human nature in general than with anything else

And on the flip side we have people in nomad/pvt/clerics gear joining groups asking for zerker and being equally unpleasant.

Pointing fingers gets us nowhere though.

People need to take responsibility for themselves.

Don’t join a group you don’t fit in. Don’t join a group with no criteria and expect there to be some. If nothing is up that fits what you want, make your own group.

If you get kicked for not fitting the criteria of the group, stop and think “why was I kicked” and don’t do it next time.

I’m the first to say that this community is pretty kittenty in that kicking is far far too common, but being kicked for failing to read or ignoring LFG notes is one of the few occasions I don’t feel bad about it at all.

I think we should dig up some of those screenshots of the toxicity coming from non meta players who got kicked after ignoring LFG descriptions. We had a whole thread of them in the dungeon subforum. They were far more vile and disgusting than the standard elitist toxicity ive witnessed.

Algreg.3629:

well, I estimate 70 % of all MMORPG forum complaints go like this: other players are able to do something that I am not able to do, so please developers remove or nerf that thing.

Only 70%? That’s generous. :P

spoj.9672:

I think we should dig up some of those screenshots of the toxicity coming from non meta players who got kicked after ignoring LFG descriptions. We had a whole thread of them in the dungeon subforum. They were far more vile and disgusting than the standard elitist toxicity ive witnessed.

The one guy posted a little clip of whispers he got just in the last week or so. Some of that stuff made me want to puke.

Personally I’ve never been kicked from a group. I’m far from the best, and don’t always run meta and didn’t always run zerk even, I just made sure to pick and choose the LFGs I’d join, or I’d wait for a buddy or two to get on and start a group with them.

I’ve seen a lot of terrible things but never been on the receiving end myself, I figured it’s because I do my best to show the respect. The golden rule is so nice, “do onto others as you would have them do onto you”.

spoj.9672:

dlonie.6547:

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

10/10. The entitlement is strong with these Martys, innit?

Cant believe i missed this masterpiece of a post. x)

100/100.
Nailed it!

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

The alternative to generalizations is specifics, which we’ve touched on some but…

The specific is that many people have experience with folks that insist on zerk meta pugs in game that are exceptionally unpleasant people to deal with, and that there’s a definite link between those demands and the unpleasantness. We can dance around that issue all we want, and put a face on it, but that, I think, is the core problem.

There’s a sub question of ‘why do people insist on dealing with them then?’, but I think that has more to do with human nature in general than with anything else

People who fall into the “unpleasant to deal with” always have demands. It just so happens that these demands are “zerk meta” today.
To propose that if zerker was somehow brought closer to other sets and clear times were squashed together that these demands would subside or that these “unpleasant people” would somehow be nice to everyone is preposterous.

Why? Because people have demands for reasons. The reasons aren’t going away. So the demands might change but they’ll always be there.

It might not be ping zerk gear. It might be a different set.
It might be have 15 k or 20 k ap. It might be have a legendary item. It might be anything but if you think that changing the meta and gear sets will make people who apply a high level scrutiny when doing runs become more lax – that’s not going to happen.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

The alternative to generalizations is specifics, which we’ve touched on some but…

The specific is that many people have experience with folks that insist on zerk meta pugs in game that are exceptionally unpleasant people to deal with, and that there’s a definite link between those demands and the unpleasantness. We can dance around that issue all we want, and put a face on it, but that, I think, is the core problem.

There’s a sub question of ‘why do people insist on dealing with them then?’, but I think that has more to do with human nature in general than with anything else

And on the flip side we have people in nomad/pvt/clerics gear joining groups asking for zerker and being equally unpleasant.

Pointing fingers gets us nowhere though.

People need to take responsibility for themselves.

Don’t join a group you don’t fit in. Don’t join a group with no criteria and expect there to be some. If nothing is up that fits what you want, make your own group.

If you get kicked for not fitting the criteria of the group, stop and think “why was I kicked” and don’t do it next time.

I’m the first to say that this community is pretty kittenty in that kicking is far far too common, but being kicked for failing to read or ignoring LFG notes is one of the few occasions I don’t feel bad about it at all.

Let’s get even more specific. I, if given a choice, never join “Zerk Only” groups. I have zerk gearsets for all my characters and for most of them run zerker or sometimes assassin. If there’s a problem in those groups, it’s not me.

I can run in groups, I do fine, and yet I avoid those groups. That is because in my sepecific experience, those groups are trouble. There’s far more a chance of drama and general unpleasantness, and the players are much more likely to be humorless.

As always, it’s possible it’s projection, but even acknowledging that, it’s certainly my observation.

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Lovely story, but your analogy is for kitten.

Let’s fix that.

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the Varsity Soccer team playing soccer and says he wants to join the game. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer with someone below their skill level, because it embarrasses them to have to do so. There are some other kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, he keeps arguing with the varsity kids. “I want to play soccer with people who are experienced!” he tells the other children, but the other children ignore him and go back to their game of soccer. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the varsity kids and manages a few plays before getting hurt. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the other children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Changes things a little.

Sariel V.7024:

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Lovely story, but your analogy is for kitten.

Let’s fix that.

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the Varsity Soccer team playing soccer and says he wants to join the game. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer with someone below their skill level, because it embarrasses them to have to do so. There are some other kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, he keeps arguing with the varsity kids. “I want to play soccer with people who are experienced!” he tells the other children, but the other children ignore him and go back to their game of soccer. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the varsity kids and manages a few plays before getting hurt. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the other children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Changes things a little.

your changes are ignorant of the fact a zerker team has to use different strategies to non zerker teams.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

The alternative to generalizations is specifics, which we’ve touched on some but…

The specific is that many people have experience with folks that insist on zerk meta pugs in game that are exceptionally unpleasant people to deal with, and that there’s a definite link between those demands and the unpleasantness. We can dance around that issue all we want, and put a face on it, but that, I think, is the core problem.

There’s a sub question of ‘why do people insist on dealing with them then?’, but I think that has more to do with human nature in general than with anything else

And on the flip side we have people in nomad/pvt/clerics gear joining groups asking for zerker and being equally unpleasant.

Pointing fingers gets us nowhere though.

People need to take responsibility for themselves.

Don’t join a group you don’t fit in. Don’t join a group with no criteria and expect there to be some. If nothing is up that fits what you want, make your own group.

If you get kicked for not fitting the criteria of the group, stop and think “why was I kicked” and don’t do it next time.

I’m the first to say that this community is pretty kittenty in that kicking is far far too common, but being kicked for failing to read or ignoring LFG notes is one of the few occasions I don’t feel bad about it at all.

Let’s get even more specific. I, if given a choice, never join “Zerk Only” groups. I have zerk gearsets for all my characters and for most of them run zerker or sometimes assassin. If there’s a problem in those groups, it’s not me.

I can run in groups, I do fine, and yet I avoid those groups. That is because in my sepecific experience, those groups are trouble. There’s far more a chance of drama and general unpleasantness, and the players are much more likely to be humorless.

As always, it’s possible it’s projection, but even acknowledging that, it’s certainly my observation.

When I use to run with a pretty set group. My buddies always posted “80 zerk exp, no ranger/necro double guard/mes”… I always felt it was a waste of time because the bad players we wanted to avoid didn’t bother to read anyways but that’s what they did. Those groups were always smooth and went by quickly and with little effort. We got a lot of compliments from the 4th/5th members that would join us.

I say this because I feel you’re still generalizing and making assumptions based on bad experiences. It’s said that for every bad experience you have you need 10 good ones to cancel it out, people simply remember the bad far more than the good. I can’t help but feel that has happened here.

In the end, that’s fine though, but I question, why even post this? Why do you continue to try and badmouth and point fingers? It simply feels like your goal here is to talk kitten on people who run in zerk groups.

Sariel V.7024:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the Varsity Soccer team playing soccer and says he wants to join the game. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer with someone below their skill level, because it embarrasses them to have to do so. There are some other kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, he keeps arguing with the varsity kids. “I want to play soccer with people who are experienced!” he tells the other children, but the other children ignore him and go back to their game of soccer. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the varsity kids and manages a few plays before getting hurt. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the other children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Changes things a little.

So why is Marty wearing Hockey equipment?

Edit: Oh right. PHIW.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Sariel V.7024:

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Lovely story, but your analogy is for kitten.

Let’s fix that.

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the Varsity Soccer team playing soccer and says he wants to join the game. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer with someone below their skill level, because it embarrasses them to have to do so. There are some other kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, he keeps arguing with the varsity kids. “I want to play soccer with people who are experienced!” he tells the other children, but the other children ignore him and go back to their game of soccer. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the varsity kids and manages a few plays before getting hurt. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the other children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Changes things a little.

your changes are ignorant of the fact a zerker team has to use different strategies to non zerker teams.

No they’re not ;D Note the analogy of the Varsity Team, who have honed their particular skills. But it seems you’ve bought into their bullkitten justification and ability to immediately discount the contribution of anyone that is unlike themselves. Ta.

Sariel V.7024:

Morsus.5106:

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the kids playing baseball and says that they should all play soccer. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer, they want to play baseball. There are some kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, or finding some other kids to play soccer with, he keeps arguing with the kids who want to play baseball. “The sign says I can play what I want, and I want to play soccer!” He tells the other children, and so the other children ignore him and go back to their game of baseball. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the children playing baseball and runs into another child. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Lovely story, but your analogy is for kitten.

Let’s fix that.

Let’s say there are some fields that kids like to play on, and Marty wants to play Soccer (football for those of you outside the US). The sign outside the fields says that you can play whatever you want, and so Marty goes over to the Varsity Soccer team playing soccer and says he wants to join the game. The kids tell him that they don’t want to play soccer with someone below their skill level, because it embarrasses them to have to do so. There are some other kids a few fields over playing soccer, but instead of going and playing with them, he keeps arguing with the varsity kids. “I want to play soccer with people who are experienced!” he tells the other children, but the other children ignore him and go back to their game of soccer. Marty tries to play soccer on the same field as the varsity kids and manages a few plays before getting hurt. The children kick him off of the field they’re playing on, and go back to their game. Instead of going and playing soccer with the other children who are still playing soccer, he goes to the parents, and tells them how the other children are bullying him and excluding him. The parents scold their children for excluding poor Marty. Marty still isn’t satisfied, and demands that the parents make their children play soccer with him. What do you think the parents are going to do?

Changes things a little.

So Marty wants to skip the preliminary stuff and jump right into playing with the Varsity where he ignores their concerns and then gets hurt. Sounds about right.

He should probably stay off that field till he’s more experienced and has built up to where he can play with them without risk of injury.

Same goes for GW2, run the dungeons in a more forgiving environment, once you have a good grasp of what’s going on, join some of those more experienced groups and learn the new tactics now that you have the base level of understanding covered, doing that will prevent the animosity and “injury” that you get when you jump into a zerk group doing speedclear tactics while you kitten around in nomad’s gear screwing them up.

DigitalKirin.9714:

So why is Marty wearing Hockey equipment?

Edit: Oh right. PHIW.

So do you just log on to comment on misunderstood sports analogies now, or what?

:-P

dlonie.6547:

DigitalKirin.9714:

So why is Marty wearing Hockey equipment?

Edit: Oh right. PHIW.

So do you just log on to comment on misunderstood sports analogies now, or what?

:-P

I’ll go back to adding thoughtful discussion when ANet produces meaningful additions to our roster of dungeons.

DigitalKirin.9714:

dlonie.6547:

DigitalKirin.9714:

So why is Marty wearing Hockey equipment?

Edit: Oh right. PHIW.

So do you just log on to comment on misunderstood sports analogies now, or what?

:-P

I’ll go back to adding thoughtful discussion when ANet produces meaningful additions to our roster of dungeons.

We can dream :-)

dlonie.6547:

Azhure.1857:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

-snip-

+1 Thank you for your post.

You guys should create a guild or something.

I’m reviving my old house guild for this purpose. House Ishida [Ishi] North Amercian Megaserver. PVX/RP for those that are tired of all this meta crap.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

I think we should avoid further generalisations at this point.

The alternative to generalizations is specifics, which we’ve touched on some but…

The specific is that many people have experience with folks that insist on zerk meta pugs in game that are exceptionally unpleasant people to deal with, and that there’s a definite link between those demands and the unpleasantness. We can dance around that issue all we want, and put a face on it, but that, I think, is the core problem.

There’s a sub question of ‘why do people insist on dealing with them then?’, but I think that has more to do with human nature in general than with anything else

And on the flip side we have people in nomad/pvt/clerics gear joining groups asking for zerker and being equally unpleasant.

Pointing fingers gets us nowhere though.

People need to take responsibility for themselves.

Don’t join a group you don’t fit in. Don’t join a group with no criteria and expect there to be some. If nothing is up that fits what you want, make your own group.

If you get kicked for not fitting the criteria of the group, stop and think “why was I kicked” and don’t do it next time.

I’m the first to say that this community is pretty kittenty in that kicking is far far too common, but being kicked for failing to read or ignoring LFG notes is one of the few occasions I don’t feel bad about it at all.

Let’s get even more specific. I, if given a choice, never join “Zerk Only” groups. I have zerk gearsets for all my characters and for most of them run zerker or sometimes assassin. If there’s a problem in those groups, it’s not me.

I can run in groups, I do fine, and yet I avoid those groups. That is because in my sepecific experience, those groups are trouble. There’s far more a chance of drama and general unpleasantness, and the players are much more likely to be humorless.

As always, it’s possible it’s projection, but even acknowledging that, it’s certainly my observation.

When I use to run with a pretty set group. My buddies always posted “80 zerk exp, no ranger/necro double guard/mes”… I always felt it was a waste of time because the bad players we wanted to avoid didn’t bother to read anyways but that’s what they did. Those groups were always smooth and went by quickly and with little effort. We got a lot of compliments from the 4th/5th members that would join us.

I say this because I feel you’re still generalizing and making assumptions based on bad experiences. It’s said that for every bad experience you have you need 10 good ones to cancel it out, people simply remember the bad far more than the good. I can’t help but feel that has happened here.

In the end, that’s fine though, but I question, why even post this? Why do you continue to try and badmouth and point fingers? It simply feels like your goal here is to talk kitten on people who run in zerk groups.

It’s kind of developed that way. The basic position is that a zerk preference is just that; a meaningless preference.

The insistence of this being a huge difference the insistence on exclusivity and the smattering of people posting from a pseudo-elitist position definitely lends itself to a negative cultural position though.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

dlonie.6547:

Azhure.1857:

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

-snip-

+1 Thank you for your post.

You guys should create a guild or something.

I’m reviving my old house guild for this purpose. House Ishida [Ishi] North Amercian Megaserver. PVX/RP for those that are tired of all this meta crap.

Yay!!! \o/

Mind if I refer like-minded individuals to your guild? If that sounds good, make a thread in the guild recruitment page and PM me the link — I’ll refer posters in the dungeon forums to it (we see a lot of these types of players posting). This could help ease the frustrations of a lot of players who are looking for a non-meta guild.

Let’s turn this loser thread into a win.

Slightly bored and figure, hey why not just throw myself in the pit to stoke the flames. So, here’s my idea to adjust the game.

Note: this would only be a part of my actual solution since mob attack patterns and dungeons would also need to have better/varied designs to fully incorporate the different sides of the game.

Base Character Changes

Endurance: currently characters get 100% endurance, dodge requires 50% and your base endurance recovery is 5% per second averaging 1 dodge per 10sec. >>> changed to having capped 50% endurance with a recovery of 3% per second giving you 1 dodge per 17sec.

Blocking: currently a block is a block, either lasting a duration or for one hit but nullifies damage and effects unless the attack is unblockable >>> changed so that a block only nullifies the effects of an attack and blocks at base 40% of the damage. Also, more skills would be added that momentarily block to help compensate some of the change.

Conditions: Would require a large overhaul. But the short version is, all condition effects only have a chance of occurring, averaging at 33% chance of occuring (although some skills’ chance may be higher or lower). Durations, stacks, scaling and effects would also be altered, resulting in very short duration conditions, often with only single stack application but would scale much greater with proper stats.

• Blind = changed >> now causes the victim to become “Exposed” upon connecting a hit. “Exposed” victims are open to more damage for a short time. Only expires with duration; stacks in duration
• Chilled = reduced >> -10% movement speed, -15% cooldown speed; movement reduction stacks with intensity
• Cripple = changed >> -15% movement speed, +10% CC duration
• Immobilized = changed >> Unable to walk (can still turn)
• Poison = reduced >> -15% heal potency
• Vulnerability = added >> reduces applicable toughness and vitality
• Weakness = reduced >> -15% endurance recovery

Boons: Would require some adjustments. But the short of it is boons would be reduced in frequency and potency with an average chance of boons occurring being 50% with various means. Skills that only apply boons will still apply them 100% but duration and potency will be lowered and scale appropriately with the proper stats.

• Aegis = changed >> protects from critical hits and absorbs some of your condition damage (33%) for its duration.
• Fury = changed >> scales critical hit chance of target by ferocity.
• Might = changed >> scales power of the target by their potency.
• Protection = reduced >> reduce incoming damage by 15%
• Vigor = reduced >> + 33% endurance recovery

Reflect: Only the first attack would have a 100% chance to reflect back to the target. Each subsequent attack afterwards would have a 45% chance of failing, a 35% chance of deflecting (hit random target) 20% chance of reflecting back to the target.

Combos

Combo Fields: Would stack under certain conditions.

Blasts Finishers: changed >> Act like current Whirl Finishers that create ‘bolts’ that hit multiple targets.

• Burning Bolts = changed >> hone in on a target and explode, causing damage
• Chilling Bolts = changed >> cause “Exposed” on the target hit, doing slight damage
• Befuddled Bolts = changed >> 50/50 chance to strip or steal boons from target hit.
• Brutal Bolts = changed >> cause damage and reduce target’s endurance.
• Healing Bolts = changed >> hone in on an ally and heal them.
• Cleansing Bolts = added >> hits in an AoE around allies and causes damage to foes around them.
• Acid Bolts = changed >> does more damage if the target has conditions.

Whirl Finishers: changed >> Act like current Blast Finishers that create an AoE effect around the user.

• Area Might = reduced >> grants 2 stacks of might per .75sec of the whirl finisher to allies in range.
• Area Healing = reduced >> reduced base healing but a healing burst occurs every .75sec of the whirl finisher.

Leap and Projectile Finishers: added >> Can combo with multiple combo fields at once. The chance reduces with each subsequent combo, the first/top field having the highest chance. Cannot combo with a field of the same type more than once.

[tbc]

[con’t]

Statistics
Power: Largely the same. The scaling for Retaliation would be slightly improved as well as slightly improve CC duration.

Precision: Largely the same. This would scale up your chance of comboing with multiple fields using Leap and Projectile finishers as well as improve the chance Reflect skills will reflect and reduce the chance they will fail.

Ferocity: Largely the same. This would also improve the damage done to “Exposed” targets as well as scale up the bonus crit chance from Fury boon.

Toughness: Some changes. The damage Toughness would mitigate would be DECREASED, making it tougher to rely on only the passive defense to survive. Toughness would increase the % of damage that Blocking reduces, possibly reaching 100% block. This would also scale Aegis as well, making the Aegis boon have the same block chance for you as allies. Unblockable attacks will still get reduced but only partially and their effects will always seep through.

Potency: Replaces healing power. Potency will not only make healing slightly more effective (it will actually be LESS than current healing power), but it will increase the effect of boons, giving more power with Might, absorb more condition damage with Aegis, reduce more damage with Protection, grant higher recovery with Vigor.

Boon Mastery: Replaces Boon Duration. This stat not only greatly increases boon duration but improves the chance that boons will occur with your skills and combos.

Malice: Replaces Condition Damage. This stat not only increases the damage of conditions like burning and bleed, but also increases the effects of some conditions. So Vulnerability will increase damage on the target by more, Poison will reduce heal potency more, Weakness will reduce recovery more, as well as Blind causing the first attack to 100% miss, Immobilize stopping the target from turning, Chill slowing down attack animation speed (reverse quickness), etc.

Condition Mastery: Replaces Condition Duration. Same as Boon Mastery but for Conditions.

Vitality: Largely the same. It will also improve endurance recovery as well as max Endurance. With enough endurance, one can reach 125% recovery although the maximum endurance is still capped at 100%.

Traits and Skills

Expand: That is to say, beyond fixing messed up or less-than-useful traits, there are mechanics that could be enhanced or granted a sort of horizontal utility now that certain stats affect certain things. For example, since dodging is a limited commodity that should be used either very sparingly or for specialized uses, one could improve upon existing dodge roll traits as well as add extra benefits to them to encourage a vitality focused build (all for example). Thus, more variety can be added to skills either to their base or via traits (and this would actually be required, especially for skills that really only apply a condition, these would need to be capable of doing other things so they can be properly utilized by builds not aimed at conditions).

Other examples would be, if you’re a Warrior and you don’t have the space in your build for toughness but you want to use blocks better, the Missile Deflection trait could be a means of doing that at least for projectiles (especially if you’re offensively built with precision). Or if you’re aiming for a hybrid bleed build that also uses power, you may be able to work with only some Malice (condition damage stat) + Deep Cuts, but conditions outside of bleed would be very short duration.

I’d even like to add more utility to ‘counter’ moves such that with high power, getting countered would cause a much larger spike of damage whereas if you’re only moderately slotted with power, your counters would do moderate to low. Giving some basic attack a kind of ‘counter’ status (that is, attacks that aren’t already a counter; these skills would do more damage for a short time after taking a hit) would go hand in hand with adding a bit more ‘block’ status to other skills.

Also, we could stand to have more leap and whirl finishers to utilize.

[tbc]

[con’t]

Notes: The goal was not really to make the defensive stats ‘better’ but to make them ‘active’ or less passive. The problem with doing that though is, most active defense is rolled into skill and trait cooldowns. Not that that is a bad thing but then it mainly becomes a sort of ‘cooldown management’ game. It’s hard to make active defense purely skill based so it’s kind of why I incorporated a ‘chance of’ element to put a bit of luck-base into the equation since, even in the real world, luck can play a huge part in success or hardship.

Hybrid builds will be able to do a variety of things but some of it will be chance. Specialized builds simply remove some chance but with the game being currently how it is, you don’t really need things to be 100% to succeed (and I wouldn’t think that has to change). Zerker builds would still be able to do what they do now but with a far smaller safety net. Your bunker builds wouldn’t have it as easy with the passive defense, even with protection, they would still need active defense like dodge and/or block on top of their HP/healing. Condition builds, hopefully, would become relevent for both support, damage or tanking but would require specific investment to accomplish (like damage condi needs malice, condi mastery, any extra help from +duration for damage condi, skills/combo rotation to keep that up + some means of self-sufficiency like toughness, blind, weakness, vitality, etc)

Dear Leo-G-4501.

Think you need to think about the mechanics a lot more – these fit for a different style of MMO and not a GW2 one. This would require a almost complete rewrite of the manifesto, skills and mobs would all have to be rebalanced

Feel free to go make your own MMO that fits how you want to play.

LeoG, I have two quick comments on your wall of text.
First introducing more randomness to combat and defense would make the game too far away from its original foundtions and while I’m not a programmer I guess that introducing additional dice rolls in the code to know if you block or not would increase latency and then weaken the dynamic aspect of combat.
Second, the potency stat is a very dangerous one that would then strike the build diversity by locking skills to gear. Just a quick example : I am a turret engi defensively geared with no potency, I make my turrets explode in fire fields and get kicked immediately because I stacked weak might on my allies instead of letting the potency guy explode in the field.
I’m quite sure that at least these two suggestions wouldn’t bring anything good to the game and the community.