Guild Wars 2

From my perspective, the style of World of Warcraft is kind of like the minor leagues of gaming. There is a lot of competition and everyone is competing to be the best. The pinnacle is to get to the big leagues which is raiding. It’s content that not everyone will see or be a part of and only the best of the best get there and the best rewards goes to those who get there. I played wow for years and was burned out and treated poorly by other players because I didn’t have what it takes to get there. This style fits for some people, and I understand the appeal, it’s just not for me.

The style of Guild Wars is more like the movie Sandlot. You play hard but no one is keeping score and stats don’t matter much. Everyone gets their time at bat and you play not to reach some goal but just because it’s fun. Guild wars had this niche and a lot of people got this game because it wasn’t like wow and it felt like home to me.

But things are changing to try to cater to a bigger audience but it’s a huge mistake because it’s not possible to make both styles happy. GW2 is moving towards wow light and GW2 is going to be second rate because wow does this style better. There is going to be those that want the wow style of always progressing and reaching for the next best thing so that they can be the best and be a step above everyone else. Once they reach the top it will not be enough because sooner or later it will not be exclusive enough. Those that don’t play the rat race will be left behind sitting the bench. You already split the community and whatever you decide to do now…it will not end well.

I think they are counting on the fact that wow requires a subscription fee.

OP..I agree, you are precisely correct in everything you said. They really need to focuse on the things they can do differently like dynamic event and fun multiplayer open world content.
Anyone and everyone does a dungeon focused endgame , it’s sad to see them go in that direction.

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

It may be one gear now, but when all the QQers get those Ascended, they will complain more. What will Anet do then? Add another tier of item. This is how gear-treadmill happens. kitten like this happened alot of time on others mmo, and Im afraid it will happen on GW2 as well.

Buzzcrave.6197:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

It may be one gear now, but when all the QQers get those Ascended, they will complain more. What will Anet do then? Add another tier of item. This is how gear-treadmill happens. kitten like this happened alot of time on others mmo, and Im afraid it will happen on GW2 as well.

So you guys think it’s a good idea to make >huge< assumptions and complain non-stop about something that has not yet happened and may never happen? How is this helping anyone? How is this beneficial?

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

And it only took them 3 months. Once they head in this direction do you really think they will be able to stop?

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

Is this really the case or is it actually players who really are pushing for power?

Thing is for me personally I was too busy being distracted by everything that I havent even finished my exotic armor set, do I feel at a disadvantage in any way? not in the least! Actually more of the opposite even with less then 33% of my armor set as exotic I feel overpowered ! I am the type of player who plays for fun and not to get the best gear. In other MMOs that means I am cut off PvP, I honetly felt like really bad at PvP in any game until I gave it a try in GW2. sPvP I have a good track record, I kill some I die some but it feels balanced. In WvW even with my bad set I still feel over powered, kill a lot more then I die ! And mind you not because I would have a bigger zerg with me but also in small skirmishes. Just last month there was a case where our numbers were less then 1/2 theirs in one particular engagement that I was surprised how we managed to push them back (in open field!)

So nope dont feel at all like the game has suddenly changed into a tradational MMO its still entirely viable to play any content with any armor you like!

To me they are just trying to provide content to diverse groups. The ascended gear are intended for people who found exotics too easy to get and legendaries too hard to get. The FotM dungeon is intended for people who want some form of progression. Ignoring all of that will not penalize you in any way really!

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

Slippery slope? Yes. Gear treadmill? Not yet.

So all these people who are making a Huge Drama out of this and even quitting or asking for refunds, are overreacting terribly imo.

It’s one thing to sound an alarm. It’s another thing to let what might come ruin the fun you’re having and acting like an angry mob with too many pitchforks.

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

‘Slippery slope’ is a really bad argument to make against something, because it only works based on presumptions – that one thing will turn into another thing and that into a third thing, which is more terrible than both the things that precede it. But, unless we’re talking about good, solid numbers – numbers that aren’t inherently biased by perception, audience, representation, etc – all you’re really doing is saying that it happened somewhere else, perhaps more than once, and that you’re really, really certain it’s going to happen again. All that we can honestly, truly say is that it is a thing that might happen, based on some evidence that may be relevant or not, but that it also might not happen. If you honestly know if something’s going to happen, I suggest you get involved in stocks.

I’m not doubting people’s experience or opinions, just how accurately the past can predict the future in alternative, superficially-similar circumstances. And honestly, in terms of this forum if nowhere else, I’d consider all the doom-saying to be a considerably larger detriment to the enjoyment of players than the potential for something to go wrong or not. It’s a downer, man. Harshing my buzz.

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not! Then you get statements like At max level there are only 2 zones to play in or to get everything in this game is a massive grind!

I bet one of the reasons why they created ascended armor / FoTM was because of such people who are now complaining about it saying it will deprive them of all the content they themselves chose to ignore anyway!

It has already started, and it will continue as more items of the new level will be introduced. “To fill the gap between exotic and legendary items”, the upcoming new legendary items will have to be better again. If this does not sound like a gear-treadmill…

Get the picture?

In 12 years of MMO experience, once a game started to head in this direction, it would not stop doing so. Like back in Asheron’s Call 2, everyone had nearly the same gear and the same level, but no, Turbine then thought it was a good idea to raise the level-cap to infinity and was splitting up the lil bit of community, till the game died.

This might not happen to GW2, but the point is, splitting up the community will end in elitism and the neverending hunger of some for better gear…

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

That’s what I was going to say. But at the same time, not succumbing just yet to assuming the worst, I will pause to look at Anet’s reputation of the past and while no guarantee of future behavior, it is something that earns a benefit of the doubt. The point?

I think this was some idea that was brought up late in development as a dipping their toe in the water to gauge what the reaction would be. Is it overwhelmingly negative? No, but at the same time, positive its not. Technical issues aside, there is either a fair bit of distaste for this TYPE of content/gameplay or guarded reservation. This sentiment expressed by the OP isn’t just the occasional burp of disgruntled few, its a fairly active topic across many sites. Anet would indeed be foolish to ignore it entirely.

They’ve already made a misstep by not including a dungeon finder, WoW like progression without it downgrades its status significantly. The absence of a monthly fee as a distinction won’t matter if “its alot like WoW…but not nearly as good”.

Enzomiles.6197:

From my perspective, the style of World of Warcraft is kind of like the minor leagues of gaming. There is a lot of competition and everyone is competing to be the best. The pinnacle is to get to the big leagues which is raiding. It’s content that not everyone will see or be a part of and only the best of the best get there and the best rewards goes to those who get there. I played wow for years and was burned out and treated poorly by other players because I didn’t have what it takes to get there. This style fits for some people, and I understand the appeal, it’s just not for me.

Actually, you don’t have to be the ‘best of the best’ to reach the pinnacle of WoW, you just have to have a fair amount of spare time.

The style of Guild Wars is more like the movie Sandlot. You play hard but no one is keeping score and stats don’t matter much. Everyone gets their time at bat and you play not to reach some goal but just because it’s fun. Guild wars had this niche and a lot of people got this game because it wasn’t like wow and it felt like home to me.

I agree.

But things are changing to try to cater to a bigger audience but it’s a huge mistake because it’s not possible to make both styles happy. GW2 is moving towards wow light and GW2 is going to be second rate because wow does this style better. There is going to be those that want the wow style of always progressing and reaching for the next best thing so that they can be the best and be a step above everyone else. Once they reach the top it will not be enough because sooner or later it will not be exclusive enough. Those that don’t play the rat race will be left behind sitting the bench. You already split the community and whatever you decide to do now…it will not end well.

But here’s the thing. That bigger audience is an illusion. There hasn’t been a single MMO released since WoW that can command those big subscription numbers. WoW is an anomoly, a one-off. Arenanet are chasing this market for a chance of what might be.

I don’t actually think they are likely to attract many more players than they already have. If they continue to go down this current path they are likely to lose more than they will gain.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It has already started, and it will continue as more items of the new level will be introduced. “To fill the gap between exotic and legendary items”, the upcoming new legendary items will have to be better again. If this does not sound like a gear-treadmill…

Get the picture?

Honestly no I dont personally dont get the picture. I might misunderstood something along the way but as far as I can tell what they will be introducing is new levels of infusions not new levels of gear! And the only progression they talked about so far happens in the FoTM dungeon which has infinite levels with infinitely increasing difficulty levels which is in turn gated by your skill added together with the level of infision and the resistance it provides.

No where I read did they state they intend to introduce new legendary items that require far more work to get and then filling in the gab between the old legendaries and the new legenderies with yet another gear tier!

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not! Then you get statements like At max level there are only 2 zones to play in or to get everything in this game is a massive grind!

I bet one of the reasons why they created ascended armor / FoTM was because of such people who are now complaining about it saying it will deprive them of all the content they themselves chose to ignore anyway!

There’s absolutely no reason why they needed to increase statistically superior gear and attach that to new content only 3 months out of the gate. None. They could have added the infusion mechanic to exotics, could have released ascended into the MF set with new looks and made it much more expensive than exotics.

They didn’t. They chose the lazy, cheap and easy way out that also alienated a kittenton of their playerbase. There’s also other forms of progression they could have added to the game vs gear increases. The fact they chose to go with gear grinds just speaks of uncreativity and potential to completely disregard what their game (used to) stood for.

Galen Grey.4709:

So nope dont feel at all like the game has suddenly changed into a tradational MMO its still entirely viable to play any content with any armor you like!

To me they are just trying to provide content to diverse groups. The ascended gear are intended for people who found exotics too easy to get and legendaries too hard to get. The FotM dungeon is intended for people who want some form of progression. Ignoring all of that will not penalize you in any way really!

The evidence you giving is based on the old GW2. The consequences of the changes have not been fully implemented yet. It will feel different when a team of people have all ascended gear and legendary weapon and your team doesn’t. Let me ask you a question. When will it be enough for these people “who want some form of progression”? You think they will be satisfied after they reach full ascended gear and legendary?

When you observe the WoW forums, you’ll find that there are a lot of disgruntled players because of CRZ and Daily quests. I assume that ANet is banking on grabbing some of these disgruntled WoW players by implementing gear progression. Also, around this time, some annual passes are expiring. My SO’s annual pass expired last month, and he unsubbed after it expired. So, in ANet’s eyes, what better time than now.

But after reading some of the posts here and thinking about it more and more, ANet should have stuck with their guns and not try to grab a chunk of the market now that WoW is teetering. GW2 should remain as a distinct MMO with no gear progression or a semblance of it. Instead of expanding their reach, they should have bolstered their core. The Ascended gear and the uproar it caused is a good indication that the players are pessimistic.

Of course this is just a theory/tin-foiling.

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

This…I really do believe this is an EXTREME over reaction on the communities part.

Eclipses.7152:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

And thats exactly the problem! people measuring Gw2 like any other MMO even though its not! Then you get statements like At max level there are only 2 zones to play in or to get everything in this game is a massive grind!

I bet one of the reasons why they created ascended armor / FoTM was because of such people who are now complaining about it saying it will deprive them of all the content they themselves chose to ignore anyway!

There’s absolutely no reason why they needed to increase statistically superior gear and attach that to new content only 3 months out of the gate. None. They could have added the infusion mechanic to exotics, could have released ascended into the MF set with new looks and made it much more expensive than exotics.

They didn’t. They chose the lazy, cheap and easy way out that also alienated a kittenton of their playerbase. There’s also other forms of progression they could have added to the game vs gear increases. The fact they chose to go with gear grinds just speaks of uncreativity and potential to completely disregard what their game (used to) stood for.

I completely agree with you, I was honestly puzzled about why they did it myself. The only thing I could think of is they designed FoTM to allure to people who seek progression and thus they wanted to jump start the whole process by making the new ascended gear 50% better then a regular tier! At the same time they might have thought the other people who didnt much care about a progression based dungeon which I guess they probably know is the majority of the people could still be enticed to play the content a little bit by providing a little bit of an advantage!

After all armor is tricky, trincets such as rings, rings, amulates etc dont even show so thats 5 slots out of the window. Armor could be made enticing through skins but its hard to create something so desireable that people would be willing to make an effort to get! my Idea is that wanted everyone included so they decided with a 50% better stats just so if you decided you didnt want to go for them you would not be penalised much if anything at all and at the same time still made them a little desirable. Only they underestimated how much their player base wants to have the best gear I guess!

anyhow thats just my theory might be all wrong who knows!

“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.”

My fault, wrong source.
Right source of quote:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Doesn’t make it better though…

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Because it actually does change everything. It also goes against their original manifesto. Had they not made a bs video evangelizing the promised land for MMORPG gamers I doubt you’d see all this hate, but then again the gates would not have been stormed at launch either.

First rule of MMORPG design, do not lie to your customers. Second rule of MMORPG design. The analogy I’ve made before is that the company is run by a group of wizards behind the curtain. It’s all been smoke and mirrors. It’s a good enough illusion to fool you into thinking it accomplishes what they set out to do in your first few weeks of play (perhaps a month of play) but once you get to max level or once you run through enough empty events or realized that you’re not really using any strategy to play you start to realize it’s just eye candy.

Enzomiles.6197:

Galen Grey.4709:

So nope dont feel at all like the game has suddenly changed into a tradational MMO its still entirely viable to play any content with any armor you like!

To me they are just trying to provide content to diverse groups. The ascended gear are intended for people who found exotics too easy to get and legendaries too hard to get. The FotM dungeon is intended for people who want some form of progression. Ignoring all of that will not penalize you in any way really!

The evidence you giving is based on the old GW2. The consequences of the changes have not been fully implemented yet. It will feel different when a team of people have all ascended gear and legendary weapon and your team doesn’t. Let me ask you a question. When will it be enough for these people “who want some form of progression”? You think they will be satisfied after they reach full ascended gear and legendary?

Are you sure there is an old and a new GW2? So far at least Gw2 is still not a gear progression based game! maybe time will prove you right, I really hope not! But right today it still isnt.

Are you sure it will be different? Ascended gear is only 50% better then Exotic (when comparing rare → exotic) and yet I am only geared 33% in exotics myself and have no problem in WvW. Actually I would say that my kill ratio is better then 5:1 and I am not a pvper by any strech of the imagination! Do you really think Ascended gear will so drastically change WvW balance? I personally do not!

I dont know if it will be enough or not, I am not a player who goes for progression. Like I said didnt even feel I had to finish my exotic set even though I am sitting on 25g and could just finish it in like 5 minutes (takes less then 1g to craft it and I can craft it myself) Cant speak for such players but I think its pretty clear that people who hate progression are far greater then those who want it ! just looking at the forum of the size of threads that asked for it and compare that to the size of the thread just being afraid the game might be heading that way gives a clear indication of that!

so why would you be afraid that Arenanet will decide to sacrifce the bulk of its players for a small number of players?

There was a reason why they locked progression to a single dungeon! they could have easily applied the agony mechanic to southern cove if they wanted too yet they didnt! I personally dont think they’re trying to drive the game towards progression, I just think they wanted to offer some progression content to people who like that sort of thing same like they have crafting, jumping puzzles, Dynamic Events, Dungeons etc… Its just all different content targeted at different people who like different things!

OP, beautiful post and the only thing I would disagree with is calling it wow-lite. In WoW the grind is easy for everything but the top-tier raider gear. The grind introduced with the Ascended gear is the mother of all gear grinds. It’s clear Anet is not familiar with treadmills as they have created one that will last far beyond the strongest rats endurance. It will literally kill the rats before it satisfies them. What we have here really doesn’t deserve the appellation “lite”. Great post otherwise.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.”

This was written in Linsey Murdock’s announcment here:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/
before ANet thought it was a good idea to change it a bit. With some google skills, you may find the original though.

Yes and that progression was sticking ascended items in the middle! I hope its clear to you as it is to me that the progression Linsey was talking about there is about the amount of effort required! (exotic has same stats as legendary so there was no progression gab in terms of power, the progression gab is only in terms of effort required).

do you feel that ascended armor isnt enough to fill that gap?

proxy.7963:

Assassinin.4963:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

The term “slippery slope” comes to mind. Many players here have years of MMO playing experience and they can smell rats from a distance. And they are sounding a warning.

‘Slippery slope’ is a really bad argument to make against something, because it only works based on presumptions – that one thing will turn into another thing and that into a third thing, which is more terrible than both the things that precede it. But, unless we’re talking about good, solid numbers – numbers that aren’t inherently biased by perception, audience, representation, etc – all you’re really doing is saying that it happened somewhere else, perhaps more than once, and that you’re really, really certain it’s going to happen again. All that we can honestly, truly say is that it is a thing that might happen, based on some evidence that may be relevant or not, but that it also might not happen. If you honestly know if something’s going to happen, I suggest you get involved in stocks.

I’m not doubting people’s experience or opinions, just how accurately the past can predict the future in alternative, superficially-similar circumstances. And honestly, in terms of this forum if nowhere else, I’d consider all the doom-saying to be a considerably larger detriment to the enjoyment of players than the potential for something to go wrong or not. It’s a downer, man. Harshing my buzz.

You have a point which I don’t disagree on the part of overreacting to the possible power creep issue.

However, you also have to understand that MMO unlike other genres of game requires persistent commitments of hundreds/thousands of hours and money from players. It is as much a commitments of emotion and loyalty to a game which they bring themselves to login to play everyday. MMO is like no other games and it is itself a long-term investment in a certain sense.

When a player commits to such a long-term investment, it is only reasonable that they need the confidence of continuity in game direction and manifesto and no nasty surprises sprung on them along the way. Just like all other investment, they need to establish the trust before they commit more resources into the investment.

When the first sign of change seems to suggest a betrayal of the original manifesto intent, it is understandable for player to seek clarification, to the point of seemingly overreacting. What they want is clarification from the designer / decision maker. If the clarification is forecoming and immediate, it would have addressed the issue. Player will not complain further and will not be seen to be overreacting. Player will either choose to leave (cut short their investment loss in this game and move on to the next game which fit their desire) or stay to play. Period.

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.”

This was written in Linsey Murdock’s announcment here:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/
before ANet thought it was a good idea to change it a bit. With some google skills, you may find the original though.

Also you made a little mistake, The statement you quoted didnt come from Linsey’s announcement but from Chris Whiteside’s clarrifcation
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Galen Grey.4709:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.”

This was written in Linsey Murdock’s announcment here:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/
before ANet thought it was a good idea to change it a bit. With some google skills, you may find the original though.

Yes and that progression was sticking ascended items in the middle! I hope its clear to you as it is to me that the progression Linsey was talking about there is about the amount of effort required! (exotic has same stats as legendary so there was no progression gab in terms of power, the progression gab is only in terms of effort required).

do you feel that ascended armor isnt enough to fill that gap?

But if exotic and legendary items had the same stats only the latter were much more difficult to get, why wouldn’t they just introduce a new tier with the same stats that was harder to get than exotics but not as hard as legendaries.

Why introducing stronger gear, why updating the legendaries, why all the fuzz if not for creating a gear-treatmill? Call it progression as long as you want, if it ends in a grind for better gear (and well, running FotM 20 times is a fair grind) it is nothing else.

Ah, my bad on the qoute, but you got the point. ^^

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

That is the inexperience of Anet on handling such issue. If there is an issue, the number one thing to do in PR is to issue a statement to ACKNOWLEDGE the matter. The statement need not go into detail (which you said need more brain work to draft) but just a confirmation that a more detail clarification will be released in due course. Even if it requires a tonne of people to draft and vet through such statement release, it has to be done and it has to be done 24 by 7 asap if Anet really appreciate the importance of addressing the customer concern. I think Anet has missed the “golden hour” for such clarification. Its only damage control at best from this point onwards.

But if Anet don’t think this is an important issue, then it is another matter totally.

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

The issue hasn’t been overblown. The only thing I can suggest to help you understand the issue is to read the manifesto and the introduction of the Ascended gear piece side-by-side. If the non-sequitur doesn’t smack you in the face it’s probably best to just accept that some people get it rather than continuing to misrepresent the community’s reaction to the violation of the manifesto.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Galen Grey.4709:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.”

This was written in Linsey Murdock’s announcment here:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/
before ANet thought it was a good idea to change it a bit. With some google skills, you may find the original though.

Yes and that progression was sticking ascended items in the middle! I hope its clear to you as it is to me that the progression Linsey was talking about there is about the amount of effort required! (exotic has same stats as legendary so there was no progression gab in terms of power, the progression gab is only in terms of effort required).

do you feel that ascended armor isnt enough to fill that gap?

But if exotic and legendary items had the same stats only the latter were much more difficult to get, why wouldn’t they just introduce a new tier with the same stats that was harder to get than exotics but not as hard as legendaries.

Why introducing stronger gear, why updating the legendaries, why all the fuzz if not for creating a gear-treatmill? Call it progression as long as you want, if it ends in a grind for better gear (and well, running FotM 20 times is a fair grind) it is nothing else.

Ah, my bad on the qoute, but you got the point. ^^

exotic and legendary did have the same stats, thats a fact. The reason why they introduced ascended in between because you could get a full exotic gear in days! while it takes months to get a legendary! So what happened was people got exotic set, took one look at a legendary and 1 of 2 things happened (btw again all of this is my speculation not really fact so there is a chance I might be wrong). Some said I dont care about legendaries but I already have my exotic set so what do I do next? (this set of people split into different directions, some worked towards named exotics, some went WvW, and some quit complaining there is no endgame). Those who decided to go legendary were again split into two groups. 1 group said hmm this is a long term goal, I will play the game in a way I have fun and get the legendary when ever! but the other group went Wow there are some many requirements…. grind grind grind… this game is all about grind and not fun at all!

Ascended armor is intended in my opinion to in part address these issues. People who have nothing to do now will have something to work for in the next few months as the various parts of ascended armors are introduced to the game. People who where overwhelmed with the extreme requirements for a legendary have something that takes a lot less effort to get.

Now why did the gear have to be stronger? I suspect thats intended towards players who once that got exotics said there is no end game and quit. Truth is there was plenty of nice cosmetic stuff to get for these people but they didnt see the point. So if ascended armor had the same stats as exotic but just looked better these people would still have ignored it and stuck to the “there is no end game issue”

I believe this was a way in the middle to address this issue!

but again thats just my personal theory.

no problem with the misquote… I just put out a clarrification so I dont risk starting a rumor that Arenanet are trying to change history to cover themselves or something

Assassinin.4963:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

That is the inexperience of Anet on handling such issue. If there is an issue, the number one thing to do in PR is to issue a statement to ACKNOWLEDGE the matter. The statement need not go into detail (which you said need more brain work to draft) but just a confirmation that a more detail clarification will be released in due course. Even if it requires a tonne of people to draft and vet through such statement release, it has to be done and it has to be done 24 by 7 asap if Anet really appreciate the importance of addressing the customer concern. I think Anet has missed the “golden hour” for such clarification. Its only damage control at best from this point onwards.

But if Anet don’t think this is an important issue, then it is another matter totally.

Are you sure its that simple? Cause to me Chris Whiteside post tried to do just that but instead cause bigger outlash because of say this:
Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward

People attacked him because they said there is no gap between exotic and legendary as they have the same stats (which is obviously true) though to me he didnt mean a power gap, to me he meant an effort to aquire gap!

End result his clarrification resulted in people calling them liars and manipulators just because the wording of a single sentence wasnt perfectly clear!

Just posting to say that I’m also concerned about the element of gear grind creeping in to the game. My main draw here (and indeed to GW1) was that it was easy to get the maxed out gear. Everything else was just shiny skins, that were an optional thing. And you know what? I quite happily grinded for some of those skins, and enjoyed every second – because it was optional.

I know this is just one additional tier. However, I was already somewhat disappointed when I realised I’d have to grind for exotic gear when I dinged 80. Granted, it wasn’t that much of a grind. But in GW1, I could very easily get my maximum stat gear, then happily trundle along and work towards a prettier skin. It also left me free to work on an alt character without feeling like I’m screwing over my main character by not playing her. Now I feel like this grind isn’t optional. Add in to this the whole RNG element of being able to get the ascended stuff … yeah, it raises major red flags for me. The reason I quit Rift was because of the gear grind. One of the reasons I stuck with GW1 for 7 years was the lack of it.

I hope that someone at Anet is paying attention to this thread. I don’t mind optional grind – odds are I will grind it out anyway when I have the time and inclination. But necessary grind to be able to stay on an even keel with everyone else is not fun – simply because it makes me feel like I have to do it. And being made to do something is not fun at all.

I’ll be sticking around playing still to see how this pans out – but if this goes down the road it seems to be any further, I’ll probably seek out another game to play. Which is a pity, as GW1 gave me years of entertainment just by not making me feel forced into doing anything.

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

Really no.

if i ask you:
there will be a new tier after the ascended one?

if you reply:
no im not going to release a new tier every 3 months
you let the road open to misinformation

but if you reply
no, this is the last tier we release
or
yes this is only the beginning
How this can be misinterpreted?

In the old GW2 legendaries were insanely hard to get but only a cosmetic difference and this fit with the philosophy of the game. It was radical and made a huge statement about what this game is about. When they changed this they opened pandoras box and made the statement that they weren’t about this philosophy anymore. Now, I could be wrong but it’s not likely.

There is a hook to the progressive gear mentality that is easy to profit from and they do have to make a profit to survive. This style has worked really well for a lot of companies in the past and so I think that is why they are trying it. I think their rationale is to try to split the difference between the two styles to make both sides happy and what they are going to do is make a lukewarm game that satisfies no one. They will figure it out but it may be too late by that time. Its really easy to lose the trust with the original fan base because what they are doing is a betrayal.

I have seen this all before.

A change in the game’s direction / the company’s philosophy – how marginal it may look at first glance ‘oh, it’s just one little thing / one item / one tier, nothing major’ – and the people with experience and foresight who see the potential risks are called whiners. Funny thing, most of the time the socalled whiners turned out to be perfectly right and their concerns spot on in hindsight.

And the less a company says about the topic, the more it’s clear that the change was not an unfortunate misconception or mistake.

Power creep is here and it’s here to stay.
Vertical ‘progression’ is here and it’s here to stay.

Unfortunately many other companies play that game much better because their games were designed that way in the first place. Because of that ANet will not only continue to alienate their loyal fanbase, but they will also fail to attract the new audiance they want to address.

Raine.1394:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

The issue hasn’t been overblown. The only thing I can suggest to help you understand the issue is to read the manifesto and the introduction of the Ascended gear piece side-by-side. If the non-sequitur doesn’t smack you in the face it’s probably best to just accept that some people get it rather than continuing to misrepresent the community’s reaction to the violation of the manifesto.

This reminds me of old, old Everquest and . . . hang on.

http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20020315
http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20020612

Yeah, this happened before in a game I played. Though it was quite a bit of a different game than Guild Wars 2 is, and the gear treadmill was . . . significantly more pronounced even as the first content patch rolled out for that game too. Come to think of it, there also was a whole lot of bugged things in that game. Though they usually denied it was broken until it was fixed; that’s where a phrase crept into MMO player language: “Broken as intended”.

Raine.1394:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

The issue hasn’t been overblown. The only thing I can suggest to help you understand the issue is to read the manifesto and the introduction of the Ascended gear piece side-by-side. If the non-sequitur doesn’t smack you in the face it’s probably best to just accept that some people get it rather than continuing to misrepresent the community’s reaction to the violation of the manifesto.

To me personally Ascended gear doesnt break anything about the manifesto! but I understand this is a personal thing! some people feel they have to have ascended gear as in to them its something thats required! personally I dont even want it, I like to play all Gw2 world from level 1 zone to level 80 zones and they’re all too easy as it is even though I dont even have a full exotic gear! So how does Ascended gear contradict statements like no grinding? or no gated content? or Play long term just for cosmetics?

As long as all content is playable without having Ascended gear and till today it is including FoTM! I personally dont feel they did something against the spirit of the manifesto!

Enzomiles.6197:

From my perspective, the style of World of Warcraft is kind of like the minor leagues of gaming. There is a lot of competition and everyone is competing to be the best. The pinnacle is to get to the big leagues which is raiding. It’s content that not everyone will see or be a part of and only the best of the best get there and the best rewards goes to those who get there. I played wow for years and was burned out and treated poorly by other players because I didn’t have what it takes to get there. This style fits for some people, and I understand the appeal, it’s just not for me.

The style of Guild Wars is more like the movie Sandlot. You play hard but no one is keeping score and stats don’t matter much. Everyone gets their time at bat and you play not to reach some goal but just because it’s fun. Guild wars had this niche and a lot of people got this game because it wasn’t like wow and it felt like home to me.

But things are changing to try to cater to a bigger audience but it’s a huge mistake because it’s not possible to make both styles happy. GW2 is moving towards wow light and GW2 is going to be second rate because wow does this style better. There is going to be those that want the wow style of always progressing and reaching for the next best thing so that they can be the best and be a step above everyone else. Once they reach the top it will not be enough because sooner or later it will not be exclusive enough. Those that don’t play the rat race will be left behind sitting the bench. You already split the community and whatever you decide to do now…it will not end well.

They aren’t actually catering to a bigger audience.

They were catering to the larger audience with their manifesto intact.

The reason why WoW has enjoyed such a large community and the reason why people have stuck with that title for so long isn’t due to the people who run dungeons to gain max gear only to run off to the next shiny the moment it’s released it’s due to people like me who are casual gamers who aren’t worried about gear every moment (not top i mean) who play the game for enjoyment of the sights and sounds and for the rewards of getting to play with friends to do a common goal. (also I’m a big gathcraftsplorer)

Every statistic shows that this particular audience that Anet is trying to attract NEVER stays for long, they leave at the intro of a new game title or any other shiny they see.
They don’t last and any money one gains from this audience only lasts for a short time.

It’s happened to every game released this year. I cannot believe someone at Anet thought this was a good idea even monetarily with such a large history of this endless exodus occurring in so many titles three of which were this year.

Someone didn’t do their homework before releasing the gear treadmill aspect of this patch.

DAoC did this exact same thing when it released Trials of Atlantis – to many people, this was the death stamp for that game – it took 2 years for Mythic to make their mistake.

People now fear the reason why they lose in PvP is gear.

I like gear, I like better gear and I like different looking gear. However GW’s was sold on having balanced gear. Now I don’t want to get into the treadmill part of better gear. I just want to know why we can’t get the other, a lot of different looking gear? We want something to differentiate ourselves, we get balanced gear is a good thing at least to differentiate yourself vs the rest. But it’s boring how little variation there is from 1 to 80. That I know is a turn off for many. It’s like you took the candy and soda pop away from us. Take the candy, but I do get thirsty often enough.

All they really need to do is put WvW players on equal footing, similar to SPvP and I am absolutely positive that a lot of this whining will stop.

Because this is affecting the WvW environment, people are being forced (currently) to PVE to PVP.

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Because even in the tier itself, there’s already a gear threadmill. There are multiple versions of the same Ascended back item, getting progressively more powerful.

So even a reassurance that no more tier will be added isn’t enough to ensure there’ll not be any power creep.

Ganzo.5079:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

Really no.

if i ask you:
there will be a new tier after the ascended one?

if you reply:
no im not going to release a new tier every 3 months
you let the road open to misinformation

but if you reply
no, this is the last tier we release
or
yes this is only the beginning
How this can be misinterpreted?

Bet not even the CEO can take such a definitive position much less someone posting a clarrification that hasnt been vetted by god knows how many suits.

Things might also change in the future you cant really exclude anything! That to me is a no but at the same time reserving the right to change direction if needed. And yes I know what you’re going to say thats exactly what you dont want to hear but you have to understand its the best any business can do!

And dont get me wrong I dont want to see a new tier just as much as you if not more! But I understand there is a limit of how much any business can promise.

Assassinin.4963:

You have a point which I don’t disagree on the part of overreacting to the possible power creep issue.

However, you also have to understand that MMO unlike other genres of game requires persistent commitments of hundreds/thousands of hours and money from players. It is as much a commitments of emotion and loyalty to a game which they bring themselves to login to play everyday. MMO is like no other games and it is itself a long-term investment in a certain sense.

In many ways, I see this as a dangerous position to take. People are becoming emotionally involved in a game – a product, made by people to make money, regardless of the underlying artistic worth. I suppose if anything, it’s indicative of just how much people cared for GW1 and the sort of experience they expected from its sequel, but the idea that a product changes over time based on a wide variety of factors and often in response to market demand shouldn’t be a foreign one. I can’t quite tell whether I’m more or less jaded than those who are legitimately upset by all this.

Assassinin.4963:

When a player commits to such a long-term investment, it is only reasonable that they need the confidence of continuity in game direction and manifesto and no nasty surprises sprung on them along the way. Just like all other investment, they need to establish the trust before they commit more resources into the investment.

I’d be more sensitive to the concerns of players upset over a loss of investment if their enjoyment of the game turned out to be disproportionate to the amount they had invested. But as some have said elsewhere, the experience that GW2 is now (or that some are concerned it will become) shouldn’t devalue the experiences that you’ve had unless you expected those experiences to continue without limit. If I found myself unable to play GW2 because of a subscription fee (which I choose not to pay), I won’t lose sight of the fun I had with the game up until then – it won’t cheapen my investment.

Assassinin.4963:

When the first sign of change seems to suggest a betrayal of the original manifesto intent, it is understandable for player to seek clarification, to the point of seemingly overreacting. What they want is clarification from the designer / decision maker. If the clarification is forecoming and immediate, it would have addressed the issue. Player will not complain further and will not be seen to be overreacting. Player will either choose to leave (cut short their investment loss in this game and move on to the next game which fit their desire) or stay to play. Period.

I’ve mentioned in another thread that the concept of a product completely adhering to its original design document throughout manufacture and distribution is a lofty goal, and one that isn’t always met. GW2’s design was lengthy and I would wager quite costly over the 5 years it apparently took. The manifesto should never have been made into marketing material – it should have been kept in-house – because the cuts and changes that the developers have had to make are doubtless rather painful. But that sacrifice was made to get the game to market and, I’d expect, in the hopes that people might actually enjoy it as well as providing them all with the revenue they needed to continue to make games. It’s easier to blame ANet for this perceived betrayal – it’s harder for us to encourage them to do better in the future and accept that ideals don’t always match reality.

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

And more power to those players. I’d expect this situation is far more complex and perhaps more personal than many would like to acknowledge, which could well be why a simple answer hasn’t been forthcoming. Feedback so far has felt a little impersonal, but that doesn’t mean that the folks in charge of giving said feedback have an easy way to explain the situation, nor to calm those who are so incensed by all this.

Horrorscope.7632:

People now fear the reason why they lose in PvP is gear.

I like gear, I like better gear and I like different looking gear. However GW’s was sold on having balanced gear. Now I don’t want to get into the treadmill part of better gear. I just want to know why we can’t get the other, a lot of different looking gear? We want something to differentiate ourselves, we get balanced gear is a good thing at least to differentiate yourself vs the rest. But it’s boring how little variation there is from 1 to 80. That I know is a turn off for many. It’s like you took the candy and soda pop away from us. Take the candy, but I do get thirsty often enough.

I may be mistaken, but when I go to Heart of the Mists, my armor and weapons are replaced entirely and my gear I had in PvE or WvWvW is not there anymore.

If you meant to say “WvWvW” then that’s understandable, and possibly a valid concern. (I personally think it’s overstated, but that’s now more of a gut feeling based on personal experiences rather than something with solid fact.)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Raine.1394:

Galen Grey.4709:

Assassinin.4963:

But is there an OFFICIAL CLARIFICATION on this issue thus far? I afraid not. But no worry, the complaints will die down sooner than later (which I believe its the delay tactics Anet is using to tide them over this ‘crisis’) because those who complains but still cannot find closure to the issue would have left the game. I believe many of these players are having a fun time playing PlanetSide 2 now. Its a sad day for GW2.

The problem with an official clarification in my opinion is this issue has been so overblown and every single thing said has been jumped on analysed in detail and twisted to mean something negativite never intended that you’re not going to get an official reply before it has been vetted by a ton of people! No one is going to risk posting something that might be misinterpretted!

The issue hasn’t been overblown. The only thing I can suggest to help you understand the issue is to read the manifesto and the introduction of the Ascended gear piece side-by-side. If the non-sequitur doesn’t smack you in the face it’s probably best to just accept that some people get it rather than continuing to misrepresent the community’s reaction to the violation of the manifesto.

This reminds me of old, old Everquest and . . . hang on.

http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20020315
http://www.gucomics.com/comic/?cdate=20020612

Yeah, this happened before in a game I played. Though it was quite a bit of a different game than Guild Wars 2 is, and the gear treadmill was . . . significantly more pronounced even as the first content patch rolled out for that game too. Come to think of it, there also was a whole lot of bugged things in that game. Though they usually denied it was broken until it was fixed; that’s where a phrase crept into MMO player language: “Broken as intended”.

Do you really believe that every company copies what every other company does exactly? If that where so dont you think every single game would be exactly the same?

Just cause something went in one direction in one game doesnt mean it will be exactly the same in every other game thats starts from the same starting point!

Veltoss.9135:

Buzzcrave.6197:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

It may be one gear now, but when all the QQers get those Ascended, they will complain more. What will Anet do then? Add another tier of item. This is how gear-treadmill happens. kitten like this happened alot of time on others mmo, and Im afraid it will happen on GW2 as well.

So you guys think it’s a good idea to make >huge< assumptions and complain non-stop about something that has not yet happened and may never happen? How is this helping anyone? How is this beneficial?

It’s not assumptions. ArenaNet explicitly stated that the current Ascended gear and infusions are only “the first level” (read tier) and that they plan to “build upon these levels of Item progression in future content”.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/