Guild Wars 2

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

“Tier” of gear is irrelevant. Why are people so caught up in the semantics and labeling? Oh it’s not grind it’s “gear progression”… that makes it totally different!!

Fact is: There is new gear coming out in phases. This new gear has higher stats. You have to grind for this gear to keep up with the rate of its introduction.

How is this not a gear treadmill? Please.

BTW the “not every 3 months” post at best says nothing. Exact opposite? Too funny.

I am sorry but you’re the one who decided coming out in phases means new better stats, What I and many others understood by that was now we got rings and back items, next phase we might get amulates and earings. The phase after that Chest and legs etc..

I am sorry but I wasn’t the one who decided anything. Those amulets and earrings you are talking about will have higher stats than anything you have now. You have to grind for them. Then maybe they will give you armor pieces to grind. Then some weapons… maybe a water breather? Grind grind grind to keep up with stat creep. That is a gear treadmill. It is rather amazing you don’t recognize that.

Galen Grey.4709:

Of course it does! not every 3 months might not mean never but the next part you conviniently ommited especially: “that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” certainly means they dont intend to create a threadmill. If its still unclear perhaps this might be a bit more to the point:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

They don’t expect us to chase a new tier every 3 months. Every 4 months is just fine. More gear every month is fine if it isn’t a new “tier.” Seriously, you are grasping at straws if you want to believe that piece is telling you there won’t be a treadmill. It is also irrelevant to the fact that we have a gear treadmill at this very moment. The possibility that they might eventually turn it off doesn’t change what they will be doing until then.

Galen Grey.4709:

“we can add personal progression without making the game feel like an endless treadmill of gear that is just out of your reach.”

If they do like you suggest and every phase they release new higher tier gear… Or well like you put it, same tier but higher stats, how would that not be an endless treadmill of gear thats always just out reach? I am still convinced the only progression they intend to do will be tied to infusions and thus only affect the dungeon and not the game at large!

Yeah. And they don’t make grindy games either. Infusions have stats. Wake up.

Enzomiles.6197:

From my perspective, the style of World of Warcraft is kind of like the minor leagues of gaming. There is a lot of competition and everyone is competing to be the best. The pinnacle is to get to the big leagues which is raiding. It’s content that not everyone will see or be a part of and only the best of the best get there and the best rewards goes to those who get there. I played wow for years and was burned out and treated poorly by other players because I didn’t have what it takes to get there. This style fits for some people, and I understand the appeal, it’s just not for me.

The style of Guild Wars is more like the movie Sandlot. You play hard but no one is keeping score and stats don’t matter much. Everyone gets their time at bat and you play not to reach some goal but just because it’s fun. Guild wars had this niche and a lot of people got this game because it wasn’t like wow and it felt like home to me.

But things are changing to try to cater to a bigger audience but it’s a huge mistake because it’s not possible to make both styles happy. GW2 is moving towards wow light and GW2 is going to be second rate because wow does this style better. There is going to be those that want the wow style of always progressing and reaching for the next best thing so that they can be the best and be a step above everyone else. Once they reach the top it will not be enough because sooner or later it will not be exclusive enough. Those that don’t play the rat race will be left behind sitting the bench. You already split the community and whatever you decide to do now…it will not end well.

I dissagree with pretty much all of what you said here. Ill mention a couple of areas so as you can see my line of thought…

I think guild wars 2 is a completley different kind of game to wow, its not and will never be wow light. Too many people make comparisons with modern games to wow which i think is inherently wrong and gives a false impression, which then other weaker minded individuals(this is not an insult pls do not take it as such) pick up on.

I feel there is alot to work towards in this game and yes it is fun to play but there has and always be something to progress towards. If that is cosemtic or stat it will always be in our games and will never go away. Its what keeps us playing no matter how well disguised it is.

I think that reaching the top is the start of a game not the end. For instanmce once you have reached this pinaacle you can then help others reach it.

Groovy.6749:

Ascended gear/agony is part of the lore.

Except you infused your armor in GW1 to resist the Agonizing Touch/Spectral Agony of the Mursaat. Where are the Mursaat in GW2?

…oh…that’s right…they’re mere statues on the Vizier’s tower. Until they have some epic reason to bring back the Mursaat, the Ascended Gear release is a joke, and it is actually a violation of their lore to just invent a bunch of crap that suddenly uses their power. So there’s another stupid argument to create further division between the Guild Wars die hards and those who’ve never played a Guild Wars game before.

But it doesn’t actually change anything.

It’s still an excuse by Anet to push out gear progression to placate the glory hounds out there who are dissatisfied that their gear grind is done. Simple is that. Sure, the game has a stat cap, alright; you’ll just be converting gems into gold to achieve it. It’s not the play to win game we were promised, because trading gems in the Black Lion trading post is “playing the market.”

I see what you did there, Nexon. This game is starting to get too much like theirs for my liking.

Do not want.

I’ve already come to the understanding that the update blog post was basically their backwards way of saying “we don’t want your kind anymore”. That’s fine. It just means I’ll have more money to spend on other things.

I don’t know why you don’t want the money from an existing customer. It’s a strange money making strategy dumping some of your customers for the mythical customers you don’t yet have. You might as well go on a search for the holy grail or for sparkling unicorns.

Galen Grey.4709:

clydey.4963:

The fact that the ascended gear has any increase at all is the problem! So all those players who gathered exotics or spent money on the trade post get what now? A pat on the back and Anet pointing us to Fractal and saying “there’s the better gear, go get it”?

They could have easily added infusion onto the existing gear if they wanted “progression” in these dungeons alone, but by putting any increase in the gear they have already put in the fear that the gear treadmill is beginning.

What do you have that says this won’t happen again? Their word? Because it doesn’t seem like they need to keep it anymore, why stop now?

Maybe it won’t happen, maybe it will. The fact is they have gone against the very thing they said they didn’t want in their game and that trust is broken, gone, out the window, probably never getting it back.

You can spin it anyways you want, that it is a minicule change, that it doesn’t change anything, that it is the same game and you may be right. But they’ve still lied and gone back on their word and that’s all people need to decide not to support them anymore.

We don’t need you or Anet to prove that it’s not happening because it already is! You need to prove to us that it won’t happen again and trust me that’s a lot harder when we’ve already been lied to once!

lied how exactly? did they ever promise never to introduce any new tier gear after exotic? cause the only promise I know of is that content will not be gated by gear and no threadmill and while I dont like the increase in stats just like you it doesnt break any of those 2 promises!

Max stat gear does not require a grind. Hard to obtain gear differs only in appearance. That was the sales pitch.

Besides, we do have a treadmill, and agony is a gating mechanic.

As someone already said in one of the threads here:

Why would i stay here and chase gear, when i can go back to [insert game here] that does it 1000 times better?

Now GW2 fans will say “well, then go to that other game!”. To that i say, how many times are you gonna say that until everyone except you leaves the the game, the company decided it is not profitable to keep gw2 alive and it’s time to pull the plug.

If some of you don’t know people who were supporting and listening Anet way before the game went live and read every tweet and every blog post with amazing promises, with high hopes of “maybe this game WILL be different”. And then BAM. Change the name from Guild Wars 2 to World of Warcraft 2 (with action combat system!)

Many of us have seen this happen before and those who already got refunded are probably saying “oh meow this kitten i’m not going through THIS again, back to skyrim wooo~”.

Whether or not you agree or disagree, the future of this game is currently very uncertain, and for someone who plans to spend more than 5 years playing a mmorpg (which is like more than half of people who choose to play mmorpgs), judging by the forums, and current impressions, it is just not worth investing time into this, as a new player.

I just log in for my daily, log out, until i either stop playing completely or we get something worth doing that isn’t a dungeon or instance to chase gear.
The achievement and title “Been there. Done that.” is called that for a reason.

Jezath.7395:

I think that reaching the top is the start of a game not the end. For instanmce once you have reached this pinaacle you can then help others reach it.

That’s exactly what Guild Wars 1 used to be. You’re rewarded for defending the hill you reached by bringing your friends along for the ride and taking them on a constant-content thrill ride through three continents of gameplay. Expansion of high end content was GW1’s selling point and catalyst for its successes.

This is not what we’re getting in Guild Wars 2 so far. Gear progression 3 months into game is bad and hasty design; even WoW didn’t do that, and they’re still chugging along as the biggest Gorilla in the cage. Anet touted lore this and lore that, and can’t even get that straight. I guess Mursaat are no longer the only ones who inflict “Agony,” even though Guild Wars lore once expressly said otherwise. Now this “increment” from Exotic to Ascended may seem minor to some, but the big picture is the precedent it sets, and the blatant disregard for the manifesto that inspired so many to pre-order/purchase this game in the first place.

Of course there’s always gotta be a prize. You gotta give a man his toaster, but you don’t make him compete for a shinier toaster a month later. Give him a blender to chase, next time. He’s always wanted his own Corvette.

My point: stop making us chase carrots, and give us a veritable garden. Add a greater variety of armor appearances, and new weapon archtypes to go along with content (flails, whips, 1h hammers, katana, halberds, crossbows, throwing knives/blades, etc.).

As you expand the world, let us stretch our legs with vehicles or mounts, and make that the next shiny to chase.

Making us chase a whole new set of armor every quarter is just going to turn this game into another hackneyed hamster wheel that reminds everyone there’s another hamster wheel where 8 million of their friends are already playing…

I agree with the general principles that you have set forth in your post.

I also agree that anet have gotten some things wrong.

I do not however agree that this is the begining of a loot grind. I think that this was planned for all along and wasent mentioned in there original advertising for whatever reason. we dont know the reason so it can only be surmised. It may have been to get more sales, but it also may have been because it just wasent ready and they dident wanna reveal it until they were sure they would be able to complete it and deliver it in a mostly finished state.

The fac6t is we just dont know, in these cases I prefer to go on history, i mean its all we have to go by isent it? If i look at the history anet has been an honest and dedicated company towards its players.

plasmacutter.2709:

Groovy.6749:

SNIP

Please don’t pantronize us with the “parent” act.

They promised us a game which would be inclusive, not penalize people for avoiding aspects of the game they did not like, not encourage people to exclude others or act selfishly, and not give superior rewards for one aspect of the game, thus baiting people by human nature to abandon the rest of it. Above all, they promised a game where skill mattered.

This change has done that.

The agony mechanic and the related implementation of the dungeon tiering system has resulted in extreme levels of exclusion and elitism. The description of the mechanic reads like a slow-motion slap-in-the-face to those who were looking for skill-based play “no matter how good you are, you will never avoid this mechanic, it’s literally there just to pad numbers against your favor”

If you don’t do fractals, those who do get an unfair advantage over you in the rest of the game.

Thus, everyone is compelled into fractals, and the rest of the world is emptying, thus those who don’t do fractals also lose the chance to do non-fractal dungeons and in many cases group world events.. the ones Anet had spent years in beta developing.

At the same time Lion’s arch has gone from a peaceful, cooperative place to the same squabbling previously seen in stormwind or orgrimmar trade chat! (“LFM FotM, must be level 10, have x ‘gearscore’” … “Yur ascended lvl 2, DIAF bad”… W..T..F)

ArenaNet has categorically welched on its repeatedly emphasized principles with this patch. Its core test group said it, and we’ve been saying it, and if they dont listen, they will lose their loyal crowd for good, then 6 months later, everyone who wanted their precious treadmill will move to the next hot MMO, or back to WoW, and leave their game, which did had does have so much potential, as a desiccated husk.

So you’re argument is that if you aren’t interested in doing fractals then you’re handicapped for the rest of the game and therefore “locked out” of experiencing content ?

So far the only content that requires doing fractals…is fractals.

I am not saying that you are wrong…or right. Neither of us know at this point in time. If you happen to be right, then I would agree with you to the extent that ascended would be some sort of minor gear grind.

But to me who’s played the game pretty much since release the mat grind isn’t really a grind as I was swimming in ectos,etc…

Also your argument is kinda flawed. It is YOUR decision not to play fractals and to be handicapped by it. Itis hardly a raid, operations or challenge of any kind. You can play the first 10 levels quite easily without any ascended gear.

It is the same as if another player said that he had no interest in running dungeons or farming exotics…so when eventually he is at an handicap when finally running a dungeon because he’s only in blue and greens that was HIS decision. Should I be sanctioned because I bothered to go all the way especially when it is so easy ?

Maybe our definition of gear treadmill and grind differ, but to me its only grind if it’s too long/hard to get and only a treadmill if I truly never have a chance to catch up and the only form of content “upgrade” the game has to offer.

One tiny portion of a new tier does not justify this type of reaction. At least not until we see the final product. Since we do not pay monthly, how is being patient an inconvenience to anyone here ?

Also to be patronizing I would have to be mocking a genuine, thought-out opinion…right now this all thing feels more like a knee-jerk reaction. So yes, some people on both sides of the argument are acting a bit childish.

Jezath.7395:

I agree with the general principles that you have set forth in your post.

I also agree that anet have gotten some things wrong.

I do not however agree that this is the begining of a loot grind. I think that this was planned for all along and wasent mentioned in there original advertising for whatever reason. we dont know the reason so it can only be surmised. It may have been to get more sales, but it also may have been because it just wasent ready and they dident wanna reveal it until they were sure they would be able to complete it and deliver it in a mostly finished state.

The fac6t is we just dont know, in these cases I prefer to go on history, i mean its all we have to go by isent it? If i look at the history anet has been an honest and dedicated company towards its players.

It may be, it may not be. My wife and I have decided to at least make our voices heard so that we’re not among the silent who oppose a loot grind in this game, should there be one. A silent customer is an enabling customer. If not, then it’s water under the bridge. I reckon we’ll know one way or the other on Monday.

Do take care in suggesting what I emphasized in your quote, however. Should any empirical evidence exist to suggest sales manipulation, then that’s enough to put Anet in hurt status, especially in the UK, whose fraud laws are much more rigid than they are in the states.

Im from the UK myself also I agree the laws in the UK are Strict regarding this area. Mostly its strict in the area of the sale of insurance and finance.

My suggestion there was just one of many different examples i could have used to emphasize my point and should by no means be taken as gospel.

I appreciate you pointing that out to me though.

Groovy.6749:

So you’re argument is that if you aren’t interested in doing fractals then you’re handicapped for the rest of the game and therefore “locked out” of experiencing content ?

In the case of group content, yes. Many zones are covered in group events that cannot be soloed and that nobody participates in any longer. Further, if any of these fractal denizes shows up to assist, if you don’t have the gear you get less credit for equal effort.

So far the only content that requires doing fractals…is fractals.

no, sorry, no cigar. The “new normal” for gear means fractal gear becomes a requirement if you want your cut of the credit and rewards.

I am not saying that you are wrong…or right. Neither of us know at this point in time. If you happen to be right, then I would agree with you to the extent that ascended would be some sort of minor gear grind.

Ascended should not exist, period. They can easily implement new, more difficult dungeons and tiers of explorable paths and balance them around NOT requiring new levels of gear, thus NOT giving people advantages unfairly and rewarding no-lifers for excluding the rest of the community.

But to me who’s played the game pretty much since release the mat grind isn’t really a grind as I was swimming in ectos,etc…

Don’t care about the mat grind. Ascended should not exist to cause it though.

Also your argument is kinda flawed. It is YOUR decision not to play fractals and to be handicapped by it. Itis hardly a raid, operations or challenge of any kind. You can play the first 10 levels quite easily without any ascended gear.

I don’t want to play fractals period, and according to ArenaNet’s repeated refrains, I should not be forced into an aspect of the game I don’t like.

It is the same as if another player said that he had no interest in running dungeons or farming exotics…so when eventually he is at an handicap when finally running a dungeon because he’s only in blue and greens that was HIS decision. Should I be sanctioned because I bothered to go all the way especially when it is so easy ?

Except it’s not that way at all. A person can easily get exotics through karma, world events, the trading post, or pvp if they don’t like dungeons. A person CANNOT get Ascended through world events, et. al. if they don’t like fractals.

Maybe our definition of gear treadmill and grind differ, but to me its only grind if it’s too long/hard to get and only a treadmill if I truly never have a chance to catch up and the only form of content “upgrade” the game has to offer.

It’s a grind if you are forced to participate in something you want nothing to do with in order to retain relevance in the areas in which you do want to participate. Other non-grind negative effects of fractals include the rewards for people for excluding others and the fact that its the only source of Ascended, which means everything else becomes EMPTY.

One tiny portion of a new tier does not justify this type of reaction. At least not until we see the final product. Since we do not pay monthly, how is being patient an inconvenience to anyone here ?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451
Read it, it’s both a FULL set of ascended, and a newly buffed FULL set of legendaries. That is a “gear treadmill” as much as he wants to disavow it.

Also to be patronizing I would have to be mocking a genuine, thought-out opinion…right now this all thing feels more like a knee-jerk reaction. So yes, some people on both sides of the argument are acting a bit childish.

It is not a knee-jerk reaction. They have directly violated their communicated intent for the past several years, their promise to the community, and have outlined a gear treadmill which will take over a year to complete in its currently planned state. I see no overreaction here. If anything, I see civility. The rest of the MMO media are not so kind as the people in this thread. They’re out there chanting “traitor” and “burn baby burn”.

I’d prefer they actually fix their mess. The game has so much potential if they reverse this disastrous course.

Jezath.7395:

Im from the UK myself also I agree the laws in the UK are Strict regarding this area. Mostly its strict in the area of the sale of insurance and finance.

My suggestion there was just one of many different examples i could have used to emphasize my point and should by no means be taken as gospel.

I appreciate you pointing that out to me though.

No worries. These are dark times for this game, so we gotta watch each other’s backs, and hopefully come out of this thing Monday afternoon with a breath of fresh air.

Fortuna.7259:

Those amulets and earrings you are talking about will have higher stats than anything you have now. You have to grind for them. Then maybe they will give you armor pieces to grind. Then some weapons… maybe a water breather? Grind grind grind to keep up with stat creep. That is a gear treadmill. It is rather amazing you don’t recognize that.

Respectfully you’re twisting things to suit your argument. Yes a new tier was introduced, ascended armor which is 10 % better then exotic armor. so far they introduced the back and the rings. They are missing Head, chest, shoulders, arms, legs, feet, earnings, amulet

You’re calling it a treadmill only because they’re introducing the rest of the set in stages rather then all at one time? why?

To be a treadmill they have to keep releasing new tiers to grind making it essentially impossible to get to the end which is why its called a treadmill, adding a one time new tier is certainly a bad idea but doesnt make it a treadmill since once you craft it all you’re done there is nothing more to craft. Provided they dont release a new tier there is nothing different than what exotic armor was till now. But perhaps more then that there is really no need to have this armor set at all if you dont want to grind for it I honestly dont understand why people have such a hard time simply ignoring it! I am quite happy with a Rare MF set! so not only it doesnt have the best stats but also has the wrong stats for my build and I still have an easy time playing!

Fortuna.7259:

They don’t expect us to chase a new tier every 3 months. Every 4 months is just fine. More gear every month is fine if it isn’t a new “tier.” Seriously, you are grasping at straws if you want to believe that piece is telling you there won’t be a treadmill. It is also irrelevant to the fact that we have a gear treadmill at this very moment. The possibility that they might eventually turn it off doesn’t change what they will be doing until then.

Do you seriously believe he said we dont intend to have a new tier every 3 months because they intend to create a new tier ever 4 months instead? he said every 3 months simply because they introduced ascended gear on the 3rd month! he simply meant this was a one time thing but reserved the right of doing it again in the future nothing else!

I am sorry but a gear treadmill doesnt mean working towards an armor set. That would make even guild wars 1 a treadmill cause since the first day I started playing I was always build one armor set or another ! It would also make any game a treadmill since you’re always working towards some goal.
Truth is you dont even need an exotic set to enjoy the game much less an ascended set! To have a gear treadmill they need to keep regularly issuing new tiers making the previous tier absolute! Now in my opinion not even a rare set is absolute, you can do all content with it and be effective in WvW!

let me ask you something, why do you feel you have to have an ascended armor set specifically? what do you think you will be missing out on if you dont get one?

Fortuna.7259:

Yeah. And they don’t make grindy games either. Infusions have stats. Wake up.

True, but let me ask you something. do you eat food that gives you a modifier to say vitality?

because lets see if we consider this level 1 infusion:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vital_Infusion

it gives you +5 vitality
takes a lot of effort to craft compared to say:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Curry_Pumpkin_Soup

which gives you +70 to vitality!

Regarding grindy, in my opinion people are making the game grindy! this is a perfect example, to me ascended gear is totally unneeded unless you plan to play FotM beyond level 10. As of right now there is just no content that requires Ascended gear, None! Yet people who dont really need it, want it and cant just walk away from it just because it has better stats! so they force themselves to play content they dont enjoy and that obviously makes the game feel grindy!

But the game doesnt impose this at all, I can tell you how gw2 played out for me. Started the game with my personal story and exploration, finished that started working on my crafting skills, got tailor and artificer to 400, crafted an exotic staff, crafted rare magic find set, crafting exotic chest and legs, saw the corrupted staff. oh looks cool, stopped crafting my exotic set focused on crafting the corrupted staff. In the meantime got sidetracked many times exploring / doing the amazing jumping puzzles in both events.

personally I dont feel that I am being disadvantaged in any way by not having yet finished my exotic gear set, much less by not having the ascended gear set! Play what you enjoy this game is not like other MMOs just cause you dont have the best stats you’re not going to loose / miss out on anything!

I believe infusions are the treadmill as they will continue to be released and get more powerful – see the blog post. It also creates the gate to keep scrubs out.

I also believe that every month will be a release of equip/slot and every 6 months a new tier. So in 3months the 1st release becomes available to the non preferred dedicated player.That way the uber hardcore have the ability to show off and use the advantage and just as the sheep see that it will be released.
They must provide a significant advantage over exotic gear otherwise the leet gamer wouldnt grind for it. They are after the gear gap and gated content.Power and the ability to show it is what one of the motivations here.

Rinse repeat treadmill- everyone happy.

at the end of the day, only the players who like to repeat content (grinders) or pvper will play that game for years to come.
regular pve players will drop out eventually.

so its normal to focus on treadmill and esport features.

Narkosys.5173:

I also believe that every month will be a release of equip/slot and every 6 months a new tier.

Why do you believe this, good sir or madam?

StormGryffen.7638:

Narkosys.5173:

I also believe that every month will be a release of equip/slot and every 6 months a new tier.

Why do you believe this, good sir or madam?

It’s the same reason that people have run around stating Ascended armor is obviously going to be 20% cooler once it’s released. Extrapolation. And they could be right! They could also be wrong, but don’t say that.

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

Enzomiles.6197:

But things are changing to try to cater to a bigger audience but it’s a huge mistake because it’s not possible to make both styles happy. GW2 is moving towards wow light and GW2 is going to be second rate because wow does this style better.

I could not agree more, all they’re doing is alienating their core audience and the WoW type audience will leave for the next new shiny anyway.

GW was a fairly big success, with the cash shop bringing in more revenue I can’t see why they would be unhappy with the same type of success with GW2.

Avatar.1923:

Tobias;

there is no way the game can keep the massive amout of hardcore players without treadmill and esport.

gw2 want to be the next big thing, and to be that big you need gear treadmill until somebody come up with a better fantasy mmo design.

Well, no. To be the next big thing you need to be the next big thing. Which means the first big thing needs to go down, which would be . . . fill in the blank yourself.

I don’t think the gear treadmill is a necessary component, just a tempting one to get into. So tempting to say:

A – “What if we increased the level cap from 20 to 30?”
B – “What? Madness! How would we balance it? They’d tear right through the old stuff!”
C – “Oh that’s easy, we add a whole bunch of monsters stronger and requiring use of the new 20-30 material.”
B – “Okay . . . and what do you do about each of the classes? I mean, you raise the cap the cleric and wizard have to get more magic and we already said 9th level was the highest.”
C – "Just change how spells work. We’ll call them “epic spells” and they don’t function like normal spells."
A – “. . . that could work, what about the non-caster classes?”
B – “Pffft, nobody plays pure non-caster anymore. Just throw them equipment which should be artifact tier without being so rare.”
D – “Guys? What about the people who don’t want to go to this new level range?”
A – “What about them? Cause, they don’t need to use this stuff. It’s just optional.”

If this sounds familiar, I present to you a theoretical debate over the D&D 3.0 Epic Level Handbook.

well said Tobias.

insanity is about doing the same thing over and over expecting things to change.

that was a quote from far cry 3 psycopath evil dude

Avatar.1923:

well said Tobias.

insanity is about doing the same thing over and over expecting things to change.

that was a quote from far cry 3 psycopath evil dude

It’s much older than that.

Also, my own analogy is flawed because that game had a much better way of filtering out that content: nobody bought the books or used them in their games. They’s still hop on the forums of the Internet (and did so when it was just BBS systems) and decry it though.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It has already started, and it will continue as more items of the new level will be introduced. “To fill the gap between exotic and legendary items”, the upcoming new legendary items will have to be better again. If this does not sound like a gear-treadmill…

Get the picture?

In 12 years of MMO experience, once a game started to head in this direction, it would not stop doing so. Like back in Asheron’s Call 2, everyone had nearly the same gear and the same level, but no, Turbine then thought it was a good idea to raise the level-cap to infinity and was splitting up the lil bit of community, till the game died.

This might not happen to GW2, but the point is, splitting up the community will end in elitism and the neverending hunger of some for better gear…

So, what your saying is, that as more “ascended” gear gets introduced, they would be forced to make “legendary” items that are more legendary than “Legendary” items, after the “legendary” items get boosted up to the stats they are intending for “legendary” items?

all in all, we have to agree that anet implemented the fractals to keep the grinders grinding.

but i find that they ruined the game for all players not yet at endgame or that dosnt start the game yet.

new players, theyll start with the fractals and end with the fractals ?
its a terrible hamster wheel that some people fear to avoid.
it makes a 400h of new content great game into an “eternal mediocre one”.

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Those amulets and earrings you are talking about will have higher stats than anything you have now. You have to grind for them. Then maybe they will give you armor pieces to grind. Then some weapons… maybe a water breather? Grind grind grind to keep up with stat creep. That is a gear treadmill. It is rather amazing you don’t recognize that.

Respectfully you’re twisting things to suit your argument. Yes a new tier was introduced, ascended armor which is 10 % better then exotic armor. so far they introduced the back and the rings. They are missing Head, chest, shoulders, arms, legs, feet, earnings, amulet

You’re calling it a treadmill only because they’re introducing the rest of the set in stages rather then all at one time? why?

I’m not twisting anything. New gear coming off the developer’s presses forcing you to grind to keep up is a gear treadmill. Confuse the issue all you want about how you rank the gear, what you call the process, time intervals, percentage increase of stats, etc… that’s twisting the issue.

Galen Grey.4709:

To be a treadmill they have to keep releasing new tiers to grind making it essentially impossible to get to the end which is why its called a treadmill, adding a one time new tier is certainly a bad idea but doesnt make it a treadmill since once you craft it all you’re done there is nothing more to craft.

A treadmill just keeps you running. Can you craft yourself full Ascended yet so that you have nothing left to craft? No. Because you are meant to run rabbit, run!

Galen Grey.4709:

Do you seriously believe he said we dont intend to have a new tier every 3 months because they intend to create a new tier ever 4 months instead? he said every 3 months simply because they introduced ascended gear on the 3rd month! he simply meant this was a one time thing but reserved the right of doing it again in the future nothing else!

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yeah that was badly stated. What they said was “we don’t have plans to do this every 3 months” and everyone is assuming all sorts of implications into what he said or didn’t say.

- Just because he said 3 months, he must be looking to do it earlier/later. (Correct, he didn’t. But that just assumes he’s out to lie to you in the first place, so why assume he keeps his word at all?)

- Just because he said 3 months, he didn’t say about never doing it again. (Correct, but you don’t use the word “never” if you’re talking about a future you might not have fully solidified yet. They may not put it in, or the game may be closed in two days. Or they may put it in when they introduce an expansion 6-9 months down the line. We definitely don’t know, he probably isn’t sure, which means . . . he won’t say “never”.)

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Its one tier to many.

Its only been out 3 months you know how long it took wow to release its t1 its been out 8 years now what tier is WOW on now 13, 14? At AN’s rate in 8 years they will be on par with WOW.

You really think they will stop at ascended, seriously? Gear grind is that huge avalanche that starts out as a snowflake.

StormGryffen.7638:

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

Thank you, very much I am very much with you on that last point . . . I think there’s actual good points which can be made. I just wish they could be made without one side demonizing the other.

Its all a cash shop grab. The Ascended Gear requires an enormous amount of resources that would take forever to farm. 50 ectos 250 of t6 material. Easiest way is to buy gems and resell them. Now most people won’t do this but the small percent that do are where the current money is made. This is reminding me of the patch that destroyed Allods more than anything.

Asglarek.8976:

Veltoss.9135:

My god people.. they added one tier of gear as a one-time gameplay improvement, why the kitten is everyone acting like this is the apocolypse?

Its one tier to many.

Its only been out 3 months you know how long it took wow to release its t1 its been out 8 years now what tier is WOW on now 13, 14? At AN’s rate in 8 years they will be on par with WOW.

You really think they will stop at ascended, seriously? Gear grind is that huge avalanche that starts out as a snowflake.

No, I don’t really believe they are definitely going stop at Ascended gear. Probably because they left the option open in their statements.

Yes, I think this tier being released in parts this distant was a mistake, only because of the division it’s starting to cause.

Yes, I think it might possibly be good for the game if the designers make certain decisions in the future.

No, that doesn’t mean I think it will definitely be good for the game.

(No, Mom, I’m not on the phone with that girl down the street. Yes, I know she has a boyfriend.)

Yes, I notice there is a statistical increase.

No, I don’t think the jump is as severe as people say it is.

Yes, you only get the new armor from Fractals.

Yes, they said they planned on releasing other methods.

No, they haven’t done it yet.

No, that doesn’t mean they won’t do it.

Yes, I am currently not playing the game.

(Yes, it is because I am compiling a Minecraft render. And baking a pie.)

Yes, I am quite likely a blithering idiot.

Yes, I know what my wife was up to last Thursday and you leave her out of this.

Have I missed anything?

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Not at all. Just because someone is still playing doesn’t mean they are loyal. They can just as easily be apathetic.

The loyal base being mentioned only had one MMO that served them. That made them very loyal. Guild Wars 2 could have a lot of flaws, and they would still happily stay for years, because it had what mattered to them. No longer. It takes a certain boneheaded move to turn that kind of loyalty against you, but it is possible.

Fortuna.7259:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Not at all. Just because someone is still playing doesn’t mean they are loyal. They can just as easily be apathetic.

The loyal base being mentioned only had one MMO that served them. That made them very loyal. Guild Wars 2 could have a lot of flaws, and they would still happily stay for years, because it had what mattered to them. No longer. It takes a certain boneheaded move to turn that kind of loyalty against you, but it is possible.

I apologize for having asked this question and I don’t think I was appropriately adding to the discussion at hand, though I thank you for your input.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yeah that was badly stated. What they said was “we don’t have plans to do this every 3 months” and everyone is assuming all sorts of implications into what he said or didn’t say.

- Just because he said 3 months, he must be looking to do it earlier/later. (Correct, he didn’t. But that just assumes he’s out to lie to you in the first place, so why assume he keeps his word at all?)

Well said. Why assume it at all? I don’t believe stuff that leads people to conclusions such as “it is a one time thing that they might do again.” That just demonstrates what doublespeak it really is. Hence my opinion that at best that whole thing says nothing at all.

Fortuna.7259:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yeah that was badly stated. What they said was “we don’t have plans to do this every 3 months” and everyone is assuming all sorts of implications into what he said or didn’t say.

- Just because he said 3 months, he must be looking to do it earlier/later. (Correct, he didn’t. But that just assumes he’s out to lie to you in the first place, so why assume he keeps his word at all?)

Well said. Why assume it at all? I don’t believe stuff that leads people to conclusions such as “it is a one time thing that they might do again.” That just demonstrates what doublespeak it really is. Hence my opinion that at best that whole thing says nothing at all.

(Why is it always “well said” when I point out words the articles have which aren’t definitive, but when I call out people saying the article definitely said X I’m not worth listening to and don’t know what I’m talking about?)

:)

The ‘new direction’ with the addition of the Fractal Dungeon and the Ascended Gear is a dark day here in GW2 land. I went back and re-watched the Manifesto and listened again to the devs tell me how this was going to be different. Now it is more of the same tried and tired level based crap ….

There is more in play here than just another gear tier, which in itself is enough to start me surfing for the new games coming out. The whole concept of the Fractal Dungeon has added level based PvE content akin to end level raiding.

As a leader of a largish guild, I am already seeing the drama associated with end level raiding. This person is at level 10 and doesn’t want to redo level 2 because they are on the treadmill …. blah blah blah. Joe is at level 8 and there are no level 8’s around so its grind a PUG time. Sally was out of town last week and is still looking to do level 1 …. she has pretty much given up on doing that with her group of friends and likely won’t even do it.

It used to be great …. a reasonably short trip to level 80 and decent gear and you could run any dungeon with your friends. I could play my WvW and jump into a dungeon with some of my guildies if they needed a 5th …. those days are done.

Fractals have added exclusion to the game ….. and I thought this was all about inclusion?

Folks are saying no big deal? Yes I think it is a big deal and will end badly for AN …. And as to complaining that something that has not happened? It’s already happened.

my 2 cents …

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

Agreed. That is like the multitude of posts you see on any MMO forum: claiming that the “majority” of other players agree with the poster; that the poster’s guild is down in numbers, so the game as a whole is and is thus doomed; or that XFire numbers are indicative of total population.

On the other hand, I was surprised at ANet’s claim that the Ascended gear was put in to satisfy “some of our most dedicated players” who already had their Exotic and dungeon sets, and were bored. Seems to me like this statement is drawing a conclusion about dedication, which is very much akin to loyalty in my eyes. I know it was just PR speak, but it was a mistake.

*edited to fix the gaff Tobias caught

Enzomiles.6197:

Kida sounds like me. They shouldon’t have kittenADOODIE ascended gear!

LOL. Maybe that wasn’t on topic, but that made my day. And it does have some truth to it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

Agreed. That is like the multitude of posts you see on any MMO forum: claiming that the “majority” of other players agree with the poster; that the poster’s guild is down in numbers, so the game as a whole is and is thus doomed; or that XFire numbers are indicative of total population.

On the other hand, I was surprised at ANet’s claim that the Ascended gear was put in to satisfy “some of our most dedicated players” who already had their Ascended and dungeon sets, and were bored. Seems to me like this statement is drawing a conclusion about dedication, which is very much akin to loyalty in my eyes. I know it was just PR speak, but it was a mistake.

You must mean “already had their Legendary and dungeon sets” because Ascended didn’t exist before Ascended

And yeah, I totally am not going to go into the announcement wording. I think the delays in hearing anything is because they’re trying to avoid saying something which will be leapt on and disemboweled . . . of course, now it’s bound to happen anyway

Cosian.1362:

As a leader of a largish guild, I am already seeing the drama associated with end level raiding. This person is at level 10 and doesn’t want to redo level 2 because they are on the treadmill …. blah blah blah. Joe is at level 8 and there are no level 8’s around so its grind a PUG time. Sally was out of town last week and is still looking to do level 1 …. she has pretty much given up on doing that with her group of friends and likely won’t even do it.

This. Fragmenting the player base is a major problem of vertical progression treadmills, and it was introduced in just a week without even needing gear at all! (Another major problem being effective killing of previous content, which also is occurring). I wonder what a rival Asuran MMO developer might say to this stunning development…

StormGryffen.7638:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

I refer to the people who stayed loyal to GW1 and purchased this game based on what was promised. Not the people who had no idea what the game promised, no experience with GW1 and asked the game to be something other than what it was. I consider the former brand loyalists.

Columba.9730:

StormGryffen.7638:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Please . . . don’t get into a system of trying to measure loyalty . . . THAT is something that never ends well because then you get people saying they’re the TRUE fans because of A, while a bunch of other people say THEY are the REAL fans because they oppose A.

They both care about the game, and disagree vehemently on one point. They are both loyal to the game, but not in agreement.

I apologize. I now recognize the bad taste in the question. Its only that I see two or three people acting like they’re the exclusive loyal playerbase and it flies in the face of logic to me. I’ve conceded before and I’ll concede again that there are some good points to be made about the criticism regarding changes inherent in the recent update, I suppose I’ve just made myself wary of all the heavy-handedness by reading these forums too long. I’ll delete the post, and I hope that no one will take the question personally.

I refer to the people who stayed loyal to GW1 and purchased this game based on what was promised. Not the people who had no idea what the game promised, no experience with GW1 and asked the game to be something other than what it was. I consider the former brand loyalists.

And again, a shining example. This time of why we should stay away from trying to dissect "loyalty’, thank you Columba.

There are several dozen types of loyalty you can start easily dissecting down into, and you can dissect them even further . . . and that’s not in and of itself a bad thing. The problem comes in for things like this:

“I am more loyal than X because X is a BRAND LOYALIST and I have PRINCIPLES.”

. . . now, nobody’s said this outright yet in this thread and I want to keep it that way. No one person is worth more or less than another person. Except for me, I’m utter trash.

i dont see what the problem is the gear-threadmill is not a problem in this game because you are NOT being charged 20$ monthly and being forced to play and its not like the new gear triples in power compared to the current gear the diferences are minimal, but yeah what the hell is rong with new things in game over time if we are NOT being charged at all for them.

Rezzet.3614:

i dont see what the problem is the gear-threadmill is not a problem in this game because you are NOT being charged 20$ monthly and being forced to play and its not like the new gear triples in power compared to the current gear the diferences are minimal, but yeah what the hell is rong with new things in game over time if we are NOT being charged at all for them.

It’s not “wrong” . . . not in a fundamental way, taken on its own.

The problem comes in when you start taking the one fact “It’s okay to add new things to the game” and people don’t like that new thing. Now you have a problem, partly in the fact you added something which was unpopular with some people and partly in the fact there’s players who are not happy with you now.

How do you solve it? Well if it was that simple, you just take it back out, say “oops” and go on with your work.

Now, the problem compounds when part of the players don’t want you to remove it. Who cares what the reason is, the crucial part is there are at least two groups in opposition over the simple “we added this”.

How do you solve this problem?

It gets better, though. Say now that when you added this you firmly thought “this will be cool” and your idea wasn’t received well. (This is also a gross understatement).

How do you solve it now?

Edit: Hint – You’re not going to make everyone happy in the last two options. It’s just not happening. We’re now back to square one – you have a problem

Ok, since my last post got an infraction, let me add a more meaningful post. Why I quoted the other user was to agree that the game cannot seek to thrive by making itselfr look like or a clone of another game. It should instead focus on what makes it unique, WvW & PvE, and focus on that instead of gear grinding and one time events for l33t gear that a good portion of the player base does not like.

Better? :-D

Lucky Thirteen X.4210:

Ok, since my last post got an infraction, let me add a more meaningful post. Why I quoted the other user was to agree that the game cannot seek to thrive by making itselfr look like or a clone of another game. It should instead focus on what makes it unique, WvW & PvE, and focus on that instead of gear grinding and one time events for l33t gear that a good portion of the player base does not like.

Better? :-D

Much, and I agree with you 100%.

Oh, and…so has Penny Arcade, long before Guild Wars 2 ever came out.

JarekCyphus.7068:

Lucky Thirteen X.4210:

Ok, since my last post got an infraction, let me add a more meaningful post. Why I quoted the other user was to agree that the game cannot seek to thrive by making itselfr look like or a clone of another game. It should instead focus on what makes it unique, WvW & PvE, and focus on that instead of gear grinding and one time events for l33t gear that a good portion of the player base does not like.

Better? :-D

Much, and I agree with you 100%.

Oh, and…so has Penny Arcade, long before Guild Wars 2 ever came out.

Not to be pedantic . . . okay, to be pedantic . . .

That’s Extra Credits. Affiliated with but not run by Penny Arcade