Guild Wars 2

And how long will you and your “like minded” friends keep playing once they get the new gear and are maxed stats?

Catering to the carrot+stick people ALWAYS leads to a treadmill to keep their interest.

Frankly… I would rather see this as the ONE mmo that says goodbye to your type and keeps the rest of us. You get plenty of options of games for gear treadmills… go play them and stop RUINING this one for the rest of us.

Urxx.6840:

Ditton.3149:

Yeah…the entire dungeon is already made..that would mean major overhaul, extended time, more paid hours into the same project etc. Taking out the infusion means taking out Agony, Agony is already a built in set piece to the dungeon which would require alot of work to remove or like you said changing their stats..all of the above requires more time and effort in a project they thought they finished. Id be absolutely amazed if it changed in anyway, its just too late.

Make the new ascended gear exotic. Put an infusion slot in all existing lvl 80 exotics. Leave all the rest as it is.

Done. Adding new content and mechanics WITHOUT betraying anybody.

You honestly believe it would be that easy? I think that would entail quite a bit of work, again what Im saying is..they planned this release to coincide with this big event. To stop one is to stop the other, they cant stop going forward with the event and its already been made. Like I said..Id me absolutely amazed if anything changed before the patch goes live.

Sorry for my bad English. In my opinion ANet need make karma vendor that sell some kind of item (stone or something for 5-10k karma ea), and you can fuse that item and 80 lvl exotic item with perfect upgrade on it in mystic forge. After that you have ascended gear with same stats and skin as on the used exotic.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside – Studio Design Director

Thank you for posting further information.

I won’t say I like it. To me, the whole idea of adding another tier reeks of a slow addition of the gear treadmill. I appreciate some people are have gotten legendaries and feel there’s a void at end game. I don’t think adding more gear will please them without alienating the core fanbase that loved gw1 for content progression rather than gear grind. My personal feeling is if you cater to the guys that are complaining about having no reason to play the game because there’s no progression you’re playing an endless fool’s game. Once they get the next tier they’ll just demand another. I don’t feel like these are the people that will stick to the game when another one with newer shinier stuff comes out. As soon as you stop spoon feeding them carrots to get them to play, they’ll leave.

Beyond that, this feels like a betrayal of the principle that skill and not stats or willingness to grind should be what wins, and that adding gear grind doesn’t add fun. Infusion was an amusing side note in GW1. Something that was hellishly easy for anybody to get, but basically not a big deal. I think people who bring up LOTRO and WoW history in this argument have a point. Gating content just adds grind before new players can enjoy content with their friends.

All that said… I’ll give this a chance.

GW1 was my first MMO. I was used to hitting max level quickly and knowing I could do whatever content was out there pretty much immediately. It was great to know leveling another character was relatively quick and again, I could pretty much do what I wanted when I hit the top. Trying out WAR, and playing WoW, was a hideous shock. The idea that max level just meant I got to grind the same content, over and over, for hundreds of hours praying for the drop I needed to complete my set before I could play the real end game sucked. Realizing I also had to grind my butt off in PvP the same way, and add another hundred hours to do the hard mode end game content was just one more kick in the teeth. And three months later, new content comes out, and all that work is just flushed down the toilet because a new tier has been released, and your old gear is pointless.

That’s why I look at the idea of adding a new tier with such disdain. I played GW1 because it was fun. I ground for the skins I wanted, not because I needed a specific piece to be able to play the next set of content, and not because I needed a stat boost to justify the time I put into the game. Seeing my character progress through titles and get cool looking armor was enough.

The idea of releasing ascended gear very slowly, as pieces rather than a set, is not perfect, but it’s a significantly less drastic gear progression. And so long as there are many varied ways to acquire most of the gear, worst case is you maybe have to only hold your nose and do something you don’t enjoy a little bit to keep up. It’s a compromise that I can see my self living with, even if it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

At the end of the day, I enjoy the game too much to let this decision drive me from playing, even if I feel it’s a bad direction to take the game.

I hope, a year from now or whenever the ascended set is complete, that Anet announces that their will be no further gear progression. I don’t know if that’s the case, and I don’t know what I’ll do if it’s not, but for the moment I’m willing to stick with the game, enjoy my time, and see how it all plays out.

Caran.3217:

Flynch.6034:

Lothair.8942:

Flynch.6034:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

impossible to argue with 99% of misinformed people… I guess this really bad communication on Anets side about this costs them quite a few customers.

Posters who are trying to explain the system just drown here. I admit, I didn’t get it first either. Bad communication. Anet, just respond to the people.

Pretty much 100% this.

Anet need to release some details that are concrete and this thread can be put to sleep. Currently there are thousands of players commenting on something that they think will happen.

And that’s fair enough, as the details are far from refined. It’s very easy to read the blogs and then see what you want to see. It’s too ambiguous and frankly Anet need to sort it out. The forums are not a nice place to be at the moment.

How much more can they spell it out? They showed us gear progression items, they talked about the future changes. They talked about PVE gating via Infusions. What am I missing here? I see a lot of informed people who care about their game discussing it and not liking the direction it is going in.

I can tell you one thing – the amount of outcry shows ANET just how passionate their community is about the game and how they want it to thrive. This is a big misstep on their part if it goes live – a lot of voices will be silenced and when anger turns to resentment to disinterest then ANET will have a lot to worry about.

Here is what we know, give or take:

New Agony system for a new dungeon.

New gear that is being released in bundles over time that has a slot designed for use in the dungeon (offensive, defensive and omni).

Current image showing a comparison with exotic, Ascended ring has more stats than Exotic with upgrade.

Legendary weapons will be boosted to remain BIS

New content will be released over time.

Ascended gear can be gained through a multitude of ways.

It will not affect sPvP as standard.

What we don’t know, give or take:

How Agony works – does it stand to stop players in their tracks after a certain point, or is it a diminishing mechanic that allows players to enjoy the dungeon and then get to a point where Agony resist is absolutely crucial. Is it gating or is it a soft-cap.

How much of a grind is the new armour to get.

Are there new recipes for upgrades that can be applied to Exotics to bring them up to the same stat-standard as the Ascended gear. Also helps crafting.

Will further dungeons use this Agony mechanic (keeping Ascended gear relative) or will they use a new mechanic that needs new gear.

I have probably forgotten some things but this is the gist of the situation in my opinion

Sorry but you really haven’t thought this through. What is the point of introducing agony if not preventing characters from progressing further if their agony boosted gear doesn’t meet the check-points aka gating?

It is a simple gear progression system.

And why add new recipes to boost exotics stat-wise? This is ALSO a gear treadmill. Simply add a new slot to all existing exotics for the new stuff – simple as that.

Please re-read what I said. Agony could be something that halts players dramatically to the point where Ascended gear is absolutely critical, or the Agony could be mild enough that the resists on the gear only need to be moderate. We’re only getting 2 pieces out of a whole set as it is – so i’m assuming that the Agony mechanic is not that strong to start off with. It will allow players a decent distance into the dungeon and will only affect players Hell-bent on getting into the lower areas with a perfectly formed group.

Adding new recipes is not a gear treadmill as currently we already have the disparity between upgrades on Exotic. Some have better ones than others, but noone is complaining about that.

If these are the only 2 points that jump out as ‘not thinking it through’ then I have to be honest, the whole thing is far more ambiguous than people realise.

I don’t usually post or even look in any gaming forum, It’s always a cry topic over another cry topic, made from a very small amount of people thinking they are all the community.

I just want to say that I like the new ascended gear, exotics are so much common and unbalance right now, an armageddon set it’s the same as a crafted one, but it’s 100 times hareder to get, I think this game need a higher tier of set (ascended are +2 in stats anyway, not a big deal), harder and longer to get than exotics to balance things out. (GW1 got obsidian armor, kurcickz ecc)

I also hope that this ascended gear will be the last tier this game will ever have in it’s lifetime and I would very appreciate (I think everyone here would appreciate) an official reply about that.

We just got started with the game, leveled up max, got the end game items (end game ATM that is).

Where waiting on more content to use farmed gear on (raids/pvp maps) and instead we get a stat and NEW GEAR!!!
This game is already jumping to other gear!?, when you didn’t even had a change to work with this gear! (instead of doing the same instance with the gear you got from the exact same instance)

There are 138 pages of this... So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

GADefence.5634:

Allright, so basically, reskinning gear is now completely kitten since I’ll have to re-reskin it every 3 months. Thanks for that.

Isn’t it generous of them?
Plus, they sell the tools you need to do it through the gem store!
Wow, convenient too!
Gee whizz, I hope they add a new, even more expensive transmutation stone allowing transmutation of exotic gear into Ascended!

Sarcasm? Moi?

Ditton.3149:

Urxx.6840:

Ditton.3149:

Yeah…the entire dungeon is already made..that would mean major overhaul, extended time, more paid hours into the same project etc. Taking out the infusion means taking out Agony, Agony is already a built in set piece to the dungeon which would require alot of work to remove or like you said changing their stats..all of the above requires more time and effort in a project they thought they finished. Id be absolutely amazed if it changed in anyway, its just too late.

Make the new ascended gear exotic. Put an infusion slot in all existing lvl 80 exotics. Leave all the rest as it is.

Done. Adding new content and mechanics WITHOUT betraying anybody.

You honestly believe it would be that easy? I think that would entail quite a bit of work, again what Im saying is..they planned this release to coincide with this big event. To stop one is to stop the other, they cant stop going forward with the event and its already been made. Like I said..Id me absolutely amazed if anything changed before the patch goes live.

I never said it would be easy. I quoted you proposing to take out agony and all the related mechanics, I replied you didn’t have to trash everything to keep your word AND deliver the new mechanics.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

Massively article is up on the dev response:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/11/14/arenanet-responds-to-guild-wars-2-ascended-gear-gripes/

Go voice your dissent there.

Haito Shtein.1085:

Sorry for my bad English. In my opinion ANet need make karma vendor that sell some kind of item (stone or something for 5-10k karma ea), and you can fuse that item and 80 lvl exotic item with perfect upgrade on it in mystic forge. After that you have ascended gear with same stats and skin as on the used exotic.

But why, if you try to avoid the gear grind by making the items so easy to get, why would you introduce those items. This makes no kitten sense…

Thats a tricky move from Anet, why should i been forced to obtain certain equipment to go to a especific dungeon? that would create an enviroment where people will strat to discriminate player with asccende equipment from the exotic, even in ascalon, the only way to save this content is to equal the stats and the only diference its the slot for infusions, but the true is that ill prefer no asccended equipment at all and just another exotic tier, why complicate things in that ridiculous level?.

Anet should be carefull in their comitment to give everything that people demand, sometimes people aren´t the best advisor.

Since they broke the promise of the whole point of this game that makes it different from every other mmo in the first 3 months. How long do you guys think it will take them to add mounts and flying?

Showatt said: “Is Anet crazy? Nope.”

Business people are as irrational and prone to mistakes as anyone else. The history of MMOGs (and any business) is full of really bad business decisions based on many things other than a logical route to making a profit.

Let’s look at the facts:

Fact: The Q3 sales figures for GW2 were great – it led all NC Soft global game sales.

Fact: Their primary source for in-between expansion income was to be cash shop purchases.

Inference: Therefore, the logical business decision would be to roll out a massive cash shop expansion based on what people were saying they wanted. CS expansion is the logical “first thing” to get done.

Fact: There was no serious in-game polling to find out IF they would seriously alienate their fan base. There has not been any log-in questionnaire to determine what players would like to spend more money on, or what they wanted to see in the game. This is – at best – developers looking at playing trends and guessing about what is going on.

Fact: people “not logging in” after original content is cleared was something expected by the original dev team; in fact, it was part of the game philosophy to not try and force people to be logged in to GW2 all the time. It was the game you could play while you played other games. If the population dropped (which I can’t say that it did based on my experience in-game) after people cleared the content, this shouldn’t have panicked anyone because they foresaw that long ago and it was part of the philosophy.

Fact: It’s only 3 months in and they are saying now that this “item progression initiative” is part of a integrated, supported system of expansion size.

Inference: Obviously, you don’t throw that kind of expansion together in a month or two because some players that you already knew were going to get bored and complain got bored and complained. This “expansion” was most likely in the works well before launch.

Conclusion 1: They haven’t given their original vision a chance to work by simply adding new content with no power creep and by expanding the cash shop. Their first appreciable update abandons their core philosophy that drove the success of the sales of pre-launch and launch.

Conclusion 2: This has been in the works since before launch, meaning that the decision to abandon the original vision was made well before there was any business (revenue) reason to do so.

Conclusion 3: This was not – and could not have been – a business decision based on the revenue failure of the original vision, because they never gave it a chance to work beyond its launch success.

Conclusion 4: This was most likely nothing more than a personality-driven, top-down edict made by someone who simply believes that the power-creep gear-grind, end-game treadmill is a necessary part of MMOG design. That conclusion is supported by Linsey Murdock’s blog post where she says:

“Our desire is to create a game that is more inclusive for hardcore and casual players alike, but we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level. Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later.”

Whomever is making the decisions now considers an ongoing sense of “progression” a “basic need” for players, and considers “end game” something reserved for “high end” players. They also consider “item progression” to be a “normal” part of expansions.

Summary: The fundamental game philosophy was abandoned when they started designing this massive, expansion-sized “Lost Shores” content, before they even gave the original design philosophy – which generated a very successful launch and a very devoted fan base – a significant chance to generate ongoing revenue via the cash shop or B2P expansions that followed the original vision. With no log-in or CS polling, there is no data other than guesswork and launch sales involved.

This indicates that the decision to abandon the original vision in favor of item progression gear-treadmilling was a personal decision made by people who just simply believed it was a better way to go forward without even giving the original vision a chance to succeed, and without getting any significant feedback from the customer base, and in spite of the pre-launch and launch sales success (and massive excitement & hype) of the original vision.

TL:DR – Even though the original vision generated mega hype, excitement, and a very successful launch, the decision to abandon that vision was likely made before launch and that vision was never given a chance to succeed financially going forward.

And a minor stat increase (on Ascended gear) is still a stat increase. That gear is “better”. And its not currently in the game, you need to “grind” it. What aren’t people understanding?

If you think this is the last of this sort of fundamental design change too, you’re wrong. They’ve had it in the oven for months – clearly. They’re just rolling it out now.

munkiman.3068:

chronus.1326:

Egger.2935:

That’s enough for me..

That is a problem because there was never any statical difference between Legendary and Exotic.

They are creating it right now.

The entire gap never existed and if they would have had a true horizonal progression with only cosmetic differences then we wouldn’t even be talking about this.

Then there wouldn’t even be “tiers” and this entire thing wouldn’t even be possible.

There should have been one, i think Anet realized this mistake. Given this thread alone, not to mention across other sites, they’ve introduction a stat increase that people will automatically assume is the standard moving forward, which isn’t the case. I’m actually sorry to see this hyperbole to what it is now, but understand the change. GW1 introduced differences in stat stacking along with insignias, this isn’t a new thing to the franchise. They’ve also patched in new rune sets with the Mad King, which is a slightly more powerful bleed set. They, i’m sure will introduce more controversial stuff and people will be upset over it, it’s pretty much the norm for MMO’s. What bothers me more is that the community has taken the form of an online riot over a change that will soon be forgotten and in most cases accepted.

Different stat stacking was always possible in GW1. It’s just your character would look horrid. Insignias and inscriptions added convenience. It didn’t add a new layer on top of the old one, which is what is happening here.
Also just because other games do this doesn’t mean every game should. Those other games were designed with it in mind from the start. that’s a very big difference you are ignoring there.

Ascended implantation is not the start of gear treadmill.
It’s the few players that started the plague and causes many people to misperceive this as a gear treadmill. The power of influence, words and negative energy. ~_~

The game already promises that there will be no gear treadmill.
It does not promise you that there won’t be any progression.

- What are gear treadmill like in traditional mmo? -
Jan: Release new gears, throw away the previous. New tougher raids.
Feb: Release new gears, throw away the previous. New tougher raids.
Mar: Release new gears, throw away the previous. New tougher raids.
Dec: … Unending cycle …
Yes. This is gear treadmill model.

GW2 ascended set is not any start of a gear treadmill model. It’s being misperceived just because it has slightly higher stats. Imo, the ascended is just a tier in between exotic and legendary which is a remedy to the current gear progression mechanic where so many players ended up to a wall in a week. It’s also a remedy for the large gap between exotic and legendary. It’s also an addition to strengthen the current poor end-game. You guys will know what I mean once it’s released.
—————————————
(Staircase = Model. Plank = Content.)
See the content with an open mind and not relate it to stuffs like gating and gear treadmill. Ascended item progression is just a plank of the entire staircase. Don’t judge and misperceive the “staircase” to be “gear treadmill” by just seeing one “gear progression related” plank built. It’s not intended to be a gear treadmill staircase. Every “plank” of the staircase is going to be different types of progression. Every “plank” is a progression. What’s important is the progression. They already promised that there won’t be the gear treadmill system so yeah, no worries. The other “staircase” steps will most likely be other types of progressions.

- Example of a colourful staircase that is uniquely gw2 -
Nov: Gear progression
Feb: Mount progression?
May: Housing progression?
Aug: xxxxxxxx progression?
No. This won’t be gear treadmill model.

It won’t be like the traditional gear treadmill model like the first example I given.
It is still in their philosophy. No treadmills. Only mmo progressions and contents.

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

it dosent effect pvp, which isnt even in the open world sooooo……i just hear a bunch of pointless complaining. whats the aspect of this thats so terrible your marching to your computers to stop your life from being ruined?

JSmooth.7654:

There are 138 pages of this… So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

That`s on page 118 of this thread

All im going to say in response to that post , ANet are very close to becoming the same type of company in my eyes as Funcom (Conan) for their lies and Blizzard (D3),
While i certainly will not be spending any more money in their cash shop after what they are doing.

If this goes through I will certainly be the 3rd company i no longer trust and will not purchase from again.

Snerf.1650:

While I appreciate a response, what I don’t understand is why he feels that there is a stat gap between exotic and legendary that needs bridging.

There is no stat gap at all, let alone one that needs bridging.

There is an effort gap, but as long as the only difference is a skin and “prestige” there is no issue.

It’s only by instituting a stat gap with this update that there would ever be a need to bridge it.

What I’m reading by the dev response, is a solution to a problem that only exists by implementing this solution…. They are in essence creating the problem, then implementing a half-fix simultaneously.

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not a stat gap they are referring to. It’s the gap between earning exotics, which is incredibly easy to do (I got my full set of armour, and my weapons in less than 3 days after hitting 80) and getting a Legendary (which most players aren’t even close to acquiring)

Ascended Items fill the gap in item acquisition between Legendary and Exotic. It’s not stats they are talking about.

Conner.4702:

Belenwyn.8674:

Nethril.7413:

^^^ It’s simple guys. Guild Wars 1 set a precedence. They claimed Guild Wars 2 would uphold it. I came to this game because it would NOT have the gear treadmill that WoW and soo many others have. This is a direct violation of the precedence AND promises set forth by ANet and the Guild Wars series.

I don’t see why anyone can argue for it? You obviously didn’t read about the game before you bought it if you believe this is acceptable. By saying you are okay with this new tier of gear, you are saying it’s okay for ANet to lie. What’s next? Guilds of Warcraft with 25 man raids, gear score, add-ons, a mini-pet pokemon game, built in farmville?

I am trying to find a solution. The promise is broken anyway now. The goal must be now to keep the gear treadmill away form the other players. A complte separation of the modes PvE and Fractals of the Mists would be the only solution. The fractals should be treated as a separate universe like The Mists for sPvP. There should be no connection gear-wise/stat-wise to the traditional PvE. The Fractals of the Mist should offer nothing what the traditional PvE not also offers with respect to rewards. They should also introduce an upscaling to 80 in the fractals. The only goal in this area should be the item progression. In this way we would have the virus “gear progression” under quarantine. The virus will never infect other areas anymore. Arenanet could keep the progression gamer and the core gamer at the same time with no conflicts.

The problem with that is it will exclude people at some point due to it being gated. The only real solution is to do away with the infusion slots and add a quest line to get your current armor infused.

With a onetime infusion you have again no progression that many people begging for. That is the reason why Arenanet will also introduce a level system for the infusion. We start now with first level infusion and end up with highend infusions over the time according to Lindsey. The questline for infusion will not prevent the infusion treadmill. The devs are clever: add only one new tear of gear with infusion slot but many levels (firts level up to high end) of infusions (defensive and offensive) to hunt for.

You could also introduce the fractals in the traditional PvE without agony. You could simply stay to your exotic gear and see how far you can enter with your group.

Infusions are o.k. We had those in GW1. They usually only affect a specific part of the game.

But why, oh why, did you have to increase the other stats!? I think this is your worst design decision since that lovely PvP Dervish “balancing” update you did back in GW1. Now you put that swing to the gear grinding mill.

Oh, and how long do you think that will keep those “hardcore players” interested?

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

I can’t believe ANet is risking so much of their credibility for this and so early. The community was already behind the game. Most were just seeking to explore new areas on the map, see some new mobs, dungeons, and lore. Everything would have been fine if they kept things cosmetic. Even if they wanted to add the Infusion function, it could have been done as an attachment to existing Exotic gear.

What’s even more foul about the entire deal is that many people believing ANets initial mission statement didn’t chase down legendary weapons because they didn’t like the way they looked. So now those people are behind the ball so to speak. What about the people who invested in crafting?

I don’t understand how a developer who has such an involved community doesn’t do a simple poll to gauge a response.

Something doesn’t smell right about how final the decision is. Bad form, very bad form.

Flynch.6034:

Caran.3217:

Flynch.6034:

Lothair.8942:

Flynch.6034:

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

impossible to argue with 99% of misinformed people… I guess this really bad communication on Anets side about this costs them quite a few customers.

Posters who are trying to explain the system just drown here. I admit, I didn’t get it first either. Bad communication. Anet, just respond to the people.

Pretty much 100% this.

Anet need to release some details that are concrete and this thread can be put to sleep. Currently there are thousands of players commenting on something that they think will happen.

And that’s fair enough, as the details are far from refined. It’s very easy to read the blogs and then see what you want to see. It’s too ambiguous and frankly Anet need to sort it out. The forums are not a nice place to be at the moment.

How much more can they spell it out? They showed us gear progression items, they talked about the future changes. They talked about PVE gating via Infusions. What am I missing here? I see a lot of informed people who care about their game discussing it and not liking the direction it is going in.

I can tell you one thing – the amount of outcry shows ANET just how passionate their community is about the game and how they want it to thrive. This is a big misstep on their part if it goes live – a lot of voices will be silenced and when anger turns to resentment to disinterest then ANET will have a lot to worry about.

Here is what we know, give or take:

New Agony system for a new dungeon.

New gear that is being released in bundles over time that has a slot designed for use in the dungeon (offensive, defensive and omni).

Current image showing a comparison with exotic, Ascended ring has more stats than Exotic with upgrade.

Legendary weapons will be boosted to remain BIS

New content will be released over time.

Ascended gear can be gained through a multitude of ways.

It will not affect sPvP as standard.

What we don’t know, give or take:

How Agony works – does it stand to stop players in their tracks after a certain point, or is it a diminishing mechanic that allows players to enjoy the dungeon and then get to a point where Agony resist is absolutely crucial. Is it gating or is it a soft-cap.

How much of a grind is the new armour to get.

Are there new recipes for upgrades that can be applied to Exotics to bring them up to the same stat-standard as the Ascended gear. Also helps crafting.

Will further dungeons use this Agony mechanic (keeping Ascended gear relative) or will they use a new mechanic that needs new gear.

I have probably forgotten some things but this is the gist of the situation in my opinion

Sorry but you really haven’t thought this through. What is the point of introducing agony if not preventing characters from progressing further if their agony boosted gear doesn’t meet the check-points aka gating?

It is a simple gear progression system.

And why add new recipes to boost exotics stat-wise? This is ALSO a gear treadmill. Simply add a new slot to all existing exotics for the new stuff – simple as that.

Please re-read what I said. Agony could be something that halts players dramatically to the point where Ascended gear is absolutely critical, or the Agony could be mild enough that the resists on the gear only need to be moderate. We’re only getting 2 pieces out of a whole set as it is – so i’m assuming that the Agony mechanic is not that strong to start off with. It will allow players a decent distance into the dungeon and will only affect players Hell-bent on getting into the lower areas with a perfectly formed group.

Adding new recipes is not a gear treadmill as currently we already have the disparity between upgrades on Exotic. Some have better ones than others, but noone is complaining about that.

If these are the only 2 points that jump out as ‘not thinking it through’ then I have to be honest, the whole thing is far more ambiguous than people realise.

You’re assuming agony is not that strong to start with etc.? So it must get stronger eventually? That is gating/gear-checks, i’m baffled why you’re arguing that way because you simply agree that it’s a gear grind aren’t you?

As for exotics, what disparity? There is none, all exotics have the same maximum ‘point’ pool that is distributed between whatever stats. What upgrade on exotics are you talking about?

JSmooth.7654:

There are 138 pages of this… So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

Don’t see how a post that contradicts itself would relieve worry.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

This will go down as one of the biggest 180s in MMO history. To the fanboys, I think this thread is evident enough that enough people are upset about it.

Whether or not people eventually get over it, in a year or two people will look at the early life of GW2 and remember two things: Account security issues, and re-writing what they said in terms of progression.

Much like SWTOR is known for being a copy-cat WoW, GW2 will be known for going back on their word.

I have seen communities up in arms about changes and issues with a game before, but never like this. The diablo 3 fiasco doesnt even compare.

Also about Chris Whiteside’s reply: it doesn’t address the community concerns about exotic gear being unable to support infusions and all the future content requiring them.

He talks about ascended gear as a mean to fill the gap between exotics and legendaries, but that doesn’t make any sense.

Since the gap between exotics and legendaries is purely cosmetic, if you want to fill it you need items that have an appearance that is between the average exotic and the average legendary.

You don’t fill a cosmetic gap adding a new kind of slot that only two tiers of gear can have. That’s the first step towards a threadmill.

You introduced a functional gap to fill a cosmetic gap… it doesn’t work that way Chris.

I just can’t believe some people are still saying this is not a new tier. Clinical denial.

Will there be more choices for the legendary skin on a weapon type ?
I see no problem in reaching a top style skin in end game but I don’t want to suffer the look that I don’t like. Meanwhile we need an end game objective so far that keep people playing a little by day

I think this game need a large choice of skin hard-to-get in end-game with artistic differences but without more stats and Zumoros lottery thing.

the Cathedral of flames in GW1 with Diessa Chalices with a loot drop of 1% just to get the blinbdfold was a very long and cool rewarding objective for example

Now there will always be people who just want everything and NOW and will throw away there $$ but that Anet problem to have put a cash system like this

well i just want to add that googling you can say this is already a debacle for Anet considering what world VG press are writing……

A well earned debacle…

Also they sold a lot on their good reputation and they are throwing it away so easily?

Until I hear a better response to specific concerns, arenanet will not get another dime from me.

I want to hear them say “This is the first and only stat boost we have planned”
I want to hear them say “In expansions, we will not be increasing the leveling cap and thus not increasing stats on gear”
I want to hear them say "Legendaries are on par with the top level of gear again…

Can I not have the actual jewelry be pow/tough/vit and the jewel be pow/pres/crit dam?
Will I not have the opportunity to customize my jewelry the way I want with ascended gear?

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

In GW1 imprinting was necessary to continue the content.
Nevertheless:
It didn’t change the power of your equip.
It could be applied to equip that you already owned.

Why do imprinted weapons now:
1.) Have higher stats
2.) Are usable in WvW-PvP
3.) Need a whole new gear (instead of being an upgrade)
4.) Have to be imprint several times to proceed.
———————————————
Ascended Gear
It doesn’t add any depth into the game.
Instead it hurts WvW balance.

Conner.4702:

JSmooth.7654:

There are 138 pages of this… So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

Don’t see how a post that contradicts itself would relieve worry.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

All this says is they will be adding new items… (as in, new flashy swords, rifles, pistols etc.) Right below it says no new tiers after this update… just new skins within the updated structure…. Thats not a treadmill in any way.

cesmode.4257:

I want to hear them say "Legendaries are on par with the top level of gear again…

They already said that. Legendary will always automatically be updated to the highest stats if there is ever a raise.

Well they have said no, but they have said no before. Your guess is as good as mine.

I cant believe in 139 pages, theres been one true response to this. I dont even consider the blogpost a response, that was probably written before all of this. Theres been only one response from arenanet, as if they are listening but do not feel this is serious enough to warrent a response.

Arenanet: Do we not deserve more attention and response from you? We bought your game, bought into your company lines, purchased gems. Do we not deserve more than the “tip toe around the issue” response you gave us?

What an insult.

cesmode.4257:

Until I hear a better response to specific concerns, arenanet will not get another dime from me.

I want to hear them say “This is the first and only stat boost we have planned”
I want to hear them say “In expansions, we will not be increasing the leveling cap and thus not increasing stats on gear”
I want to hear them say "Legendaries are on par with the top level of gear again…

I don’t want my exotic gear to be obsolete – something i have grinded for =/

tkalamba.2541:

Snerf.1650:

While I appreciate a response, what I don’t understand is why he feels that there is a stat gap between exotic and legendary that needs bridging.

There is no stat gap at all, let alone one that needs bridging.

There is an effort gap, but as long as the only difference is a skin and “prestige” there is no issue.

It’s only by instituting a stat gap with this update that there would ever be a need to bridge it.

What I’m reading by the dev response, is a solution to a problem that only exists by implementing this solution…. They are in essence creating the problem, then implementing a half-fix simultaneously.

Does that seem odd to anyone else?

I think you’re missing the point. It’s not a stat gap they are referring to. It’s the gap between earning exotics, which is incredibly easy to do (I got my full set of armour, and my weapons in less than 3 days after hitting 80) and getting a Legendary (which most players aren’t even close to acquiring)

Ascended Items fill the gap in item acquisition between Legendary and Exotic. It’s not stats they are talking about.

You still don’t get it – they are adding more powerful armor & weapons – that and only that is true (creating a gear treadmill).

They are buffing legendary to be on the same level of ascended moving forward. Legendary was just a cosmetic look and that’s about it. It’s not meant to be something the general population obtain (hence: Legendary).

Sdric.8526:

In GW1 imprinting was necessary to continue the content.
Nevertheless:
It didn’t change the power of your equip.
It could be applied to equip that you already owned.

Why do imprinted weapons now:
1.) Have higher stats
2.) Are usable in WvW-PvP
3.) Need a whole new gear (instead of being an upgrade)

4.) You need to be higher imprinted over the time to proceed.

Conner.4702:

JSmooth.7654:

There are 138 pages of this… So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

Don’t see how a post that contradicts itself would relieve worry.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

Because it was a lie, Arena-Net lied once, they are doing it again. They are just masking the treadmill in a different way by making more powerful infusions over time. By the end of 2013 it will be very common for people to be shouting “LFM Ascalon Catacombs, need full Ascension with the infusion from floor 10,000!” It’s the same old MMO grind with a mask.

Psi.2186:

Infusions are o.k. We had those in GW1. They usually only affect a specific part of the game.

No they arent if the devs dont explain how infusion work

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion

we risk to have and esotic tier with one uprade slot, and an ascended one with 2 virtual uprade slot (one if the boost on the base stats, and the second is the infusion slot)
Because reading this wiki page, the agony resistance is a side effect of the infusion, and not the MAIN effect.
We still dont know if infusion work like rune\sigils, and work through the world content or WvW

RamzaBehoulve.5640:

cesmode.4257:

Lothair.8942:

cesmode.4257:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/324689481

Let it buffer, skip to 12:35.

Eric Flannum specifically says “Legendary weapons, ofcourse, are not any more powerful than the top level exotic weapons.”

“Each legendary weapon is based off of an exotic weapon, power wise”

Why are they making legendaries more powerful now? When Eric Flannum says otherwise here?

This cannot be refuted by anyone.

“You wont get a gameplay advantage”

You are preaching to the choir sister. They are backtracking now and making core changes to this game that are against their original design. I just don’t get it.

I just want as many of us to point out to their specific content leads, and producers, and game designers that have publically said one thing, and now going against it. I want to call them out as liars because that is what they are. I am pointing out that they promised and didnt deliver, buckling under the carrot on a stick pressure.

You don’t get a gameplay advantage from a Legendary. Legendary will always have the same stats as the highest non-Legendary item you can acquire in other, generally much easier and faster ways.

The only “advantage” of a Legendary is that it will increase in stats by itself if there is a new tier of armor appearing which is exactly how it should be given the amount of time and resources needed to obtain one.

So, when Eric Flannum says in the video “Legendaries wont be more powerful than the already existing top level Exotics”… That means that its OK for them to throw in better gear than exotics, and bump legendaries to that?

I call that a classic word play right there.

Caran.3217:

My entire point is on the ambiguity of the info we have and the assumptions being made. If Agony is a gate mechanic then yes we have ourselves a gear grind that is dependent on how long it takes to grind. After all, Exotics could be classed as a gear-grind as they are premium gear but because they don’t take that long, noone complains.

If players are able to see all of the content, yet when they repeat the content subsequently when Agony kicks in, then it’s not gated. (in my opinion)

The second point I probably didn’t explain quite so well. But if I have an exotic and my friend has an exotic, the stats may differ wildly. If I want to re-build my character to have greater survivability then I have to grind for that new rune etc. Hope that is clearer.

ps i’m tired today and had real trouble with the quote so had to rewrite this :s

tkalamba.2541:

Conner.4702:

JSmooth.7654:

There are 138 pages of this… So, I don’t know if this link has been posted or not.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

Those of you who are worried about the stat increase should read this. I was very worried about it too. However, this response from Anet helped put me at ease.

Atryue
lvl 80 Guard on Anvil Rock

Don’t see how a post that contradicts itself would relieve worry.

Our goal is not to create a gear treadmill. Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from exotic up to legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two. We will slowly add the remaining ascended gear items and legendary items in future updates to allow people time to acquire them as we add exciting new content that deserves exciting rewards. We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.

All this says is they will be adding new items… (as in, new flashy swords, rifles, pistols etc.) Right below it says no new tiers after this update… just new skins within the updated structure…. Thats not a treadmill in any way.

It is exactly that a treadmill. A treadmill is nothing but a constant stream of items for people to grind for.

Anet: People have gotten all the current items, time to put the new ones in…

By making them stronger than what is currently in game as well as having them needed to reach even better rewards in the dungeon makes this a gear treadmill