Guild Wars 2

I think that is a leap too far krone.. I dont think its nessecary to draw that conclusion yet. I took a look at what mechanics for pay as you go gameplay that swtor are bringing in and i was stunned. Its like they dont want any players to stick around and i got a warm and fuzzy feeling inside as my mind drifted towards the pay as yoyu go mechanics of this beloved game.

Namu.5712:

I guess im indifferent about what was “promised” vs what is going to happen.

For me the game is fun. But is quickly getting…stale? maybe boring? I don’t know but somethings gotta give for me to want to log in. And this is after some months of hardcore WvW, perhaps its a bit of pvp burn out with no real progression competition wise… well server rankings but those mean nothing in the current state of WvW. Pve wise I like the mechanics but feels like there is something missing. And that’s not to imply that I think new gear is missing… just theres something that makes me say meh why bother.

I completely agree on the need of new content, and I saluted their announced plans of publishing a content patch every month with great excitement.

What I say, is that the new content in enough to make the game less stale and more alive and evolving. You don’t need to make the past efforts of people irrelevant to achieve that.

Do you really think that if they didn’t introduce ascended gear, allowed us to add infusion slots to exotics via quest/mission/event/wathever, and retained the agony / infusion mechanic the game would have been a lot less fun than what it will be the way they are doing this?

It would have brought the same amount of freshness and content, without making exotics obsolete and rightfully upsetting those who invested in them based on their statement that GW2 wouldn’t have power creep.

Even time trials would have been a great idea ranking player groups or guilds based on their times completing a dungeon or speed/deaths/kills in a pve event. So many possibilities they just didn’t bother exploring.

World event where a special quest chain is inserted and the first guild to complete it gets some sort of rank/title/special cosmetics etc etc. And it fits in with a living breathing world concept.

Or a complex puzzle that requires a group to complete, and again the fastest groups to complete it get some rank points that go towards a world pve ranking or something showing their achievement. And for everyone else that completes it from that point on gets whatever special reward was in there or maybe a lesser amount of ranking points giving them something to work towards as new puzzles or events become available trying to beat the top guys.

Im a bucket full of ideas to make the game engaging but I doubt AN would even spot these posts in this huge thread.

cherrie.8907:

Naoko.7096:

Euthil.5209:

Now, this so called “fashion treadmill” is only a treadmill if you make it out to be, since beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Yes. Exactly. Same for “gear treadmill” is only a treadmill if you make it out to be.
Imo, ascended is not a form of treadmill, but a progression.

Game with Treadmill : Carrot on the stick while the carrot is the content/goal. This means no matter how much you grind, you can never reach the content and goal.

Game with Progression : There’s a line of carrots by the road. Once you ate the carrot, there is another. You walk to each one at a time. You progresses.

Game without Progression : All the carrots are given to you. Once you ate all the carrots, you feel full. There’s no more carrots there. You decided to move on to another place (game) to find another batch of carrots. – All console games are like this.
—-—————
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder” is exactly the reason why skin progression isn’t effective in end-game. Once players are satisfied with their armor looks, they have no more reasons to play even when there’s more skins content unlock. Players can wear only one set of looks anyway. They can still play the game, but with no goals left.

I don’t know about other players but personally, I find it extremely demotivating to play a game with no goals or rewards. When there’s no goals, I start to find it pointless and the content became tasteless. The game knows the best when there’s no more goals. We can see a drop of players in maps after they reached the wall. Players who used to play 5 hours per day only start to log in once every few days after they feel full satisfaction.

You are wrong, and very much so.

Empiric proof: GW1 was a success. The game hasn’t died even when no new content was added for 5+ years and only treadmill was the fashion one, and it was such a success that ANet decided to make another game like it, just better. People played for years with no stats progression whatsoever.

Gear treadmill is not “in the eye of the beholder”, as better gear is tangibly better: higher stats mean higher performance.

GW2 was indeed to be about progression.
But simply saying “what we’re doing is not treadmill/vertical progression, it just character progression” does not change the facts.

This game has – and GW1 had – goals and rewards and plenty of them.
If you didn’t like their type, why did you buy this game or why didn’t you and players like you leave for games that offered what you wanted? As you can see in this thread (and by GW1 success) such design perfectly satisfied a lot of people.

I dissagree with your conclusions. Your empiric proof is flawed i feel. By this analogy then AC1 (asherons call) the grandfather of mmporgs is also still succesful, its still around today in fact and that game came out in the early 90’s. In that game it was ALL about the grind and that is succesful also.

Please rethink your decision, anet or you gonna start losing ppl big time (me being one of them). Adding just a special gear on absolutely the same level as exotic, but with slot for that anti-dot stat would be enough.

Jezath.7395:

Urxx.6840:

Jezath.7395:

I really am not sure why this is such a problem, for myself I also spent alot of cash/time on exotics and getting geared out. But I am very happy with the new ascended gear as I know it will add months and months of more enjoyment for me, this time however i wont have to do AC a load of times to get my exotics/cash/tokens I can do the fractal dungeon and get the peices from doing the bosses there.

That’s a very good attitude. But if one has the benevolence and equanimity of the Dalai Lama and takes a wrong thing in a very good way, that doesn’t make the wrong thing right.

haha nice analogy my friend This statement you make is very true, however I do not feel it is wrong what they have done.. I dont feel they have broken any promises… yet..

Because – as you mention – you don’t care about vertical gear progression and it actually satisfies and motivates you.
But people who did come to this game because of the promise of no vertical progression do see broken promises. They don’t want vertical progression, the want horizontal progression.
So yes, of course there are people liking that change.
But anyone who bought the game because it was supposed to be “different” and get rid of all the things considered so “holy” in MMOs that almost no one ever tried anything different, are disappointed. Especially since horizontal progression is a valid design, which GW1 has proved so successfully.

Buttercup.5871:

First of all: I am not a fan of a gear-grind either. I had recently bought a second exotic set, this time with karma (240k karma), on the assumption that it would remain the best gear. I was wrong.

However.

I have played Guild Wars 1. Having played that game, I know that the Underworld was such a huge success, for years and years and years, because it was actually HARD. You could lose something when you entered (1 gold entry fee). You could be ruthlessly kicked out if the party died. But if you succeeded, it was rewarding. It really was. It had some cool, exclusive stuff.

I have played a few dungeons in Guild Wars 2, and all of them are simply not that difficult if the entire group is max geared. So in this respect, I applaud Anet for their efforts to introduce an “Underworld” kind of dungeon. Something worth exploring, something that is increasingly difficult, but which is ultimately rewarding.

The only major problems that I see with the new “ascended gear” are:

- the negative effects on crafting (however, if players will be allowed to upgrade existing exotic gear to ascended gear, and if they will be allowed to add an infusion slot to existing exotic gear – with mats from the new dungeon – this could remedy the inevitable crash of large parts of the market);
- the inevitable emptying of the majority of Tyria (which crashes the concept of DE’s), and, perhaps most importantly
- WvW. As Anet stated, PvP should be on equal terms. WvW, of course, is PvP, especially if you like skirmishing away from the “zerg”. When fighting 1 vs 1, you want to know that, at the very least, you’re on equal footing with your opponent, and that you didn’t win/lose because you had better/worse gear.

If the above concerns are/have been addressed, I am positive that the Lost Shores will be a huge success.

So what is your point concerning the new gear tier of Ascended? You went to UW with max stat gear and didn’t get higher stat gear out of it – simple as that! What has increasing stats on gear to do with presenting challenging content?

Sorry cherrie but i feel this is horizontal progression. If they said they wernt going to increase the stats of gear already in the game then yes i would agree this is vertical progression as you put it. But they are increasing stats of gear in the game already.. They havent said if this would be solely legendarys or not. so in fact they are in my mind adding in a layer of content to help casual players out. They are bringing in some gear that people can aquire along the road to aquiring there legendarys.

Urxx.6840:

Namu.5712:

I guess im indifferent about what was “promised” vs what is going to happen.

For me the game is fun. But is quickly getting…stale? maybe boring? I don’t know but somethings gotta give for me to want to log in. And this is after some months of hardcore WvW, perhaps its a bit of pvp burn out with no real progression competition wise… well server rankings but those mean nothing in the current state of WvW. Pve wise I like the mechanics but feels like there is something missing. And that’s not to imply that I think new gear is missing… just theres something that makes me say meh why bother.

I completely agree on the need of new content, and I saluted their announced plans of publishing a content patch every month with great excitement.

What I say, is that the new content in enough to make the game less stale and more alive and evolving. You don’t need to make the past efforts of people irrelevant to achieve that.

Do you really think that if they didn’t introduce ascended gear, allowed us to add infusion slots to exotics via quest/mission/event/wathever, and retained the agony / infusion mechanic the game would have been a lot less fun than what it will be the way they are doing this?

It would have brought the same amount of freshness and content, without making exotics obsolete and rightfully upsetting those who invested in them based on their statement that GW2 wouldn’t have power creep.

They could have taken a cool approach to this. Rather then inserting a new tier of gear with the new content they could have simply created a sick gear set that is so amazingly detailed and awesome that you would be a fool not to run the new content for the gear. However, not everyone cares about looks, so while a great many people would be excited for the new content. Many just wouldn’t care. And just not bother because there is no “omg i gotta have that!” factor.

Which is why I think they need to shift their attention and focus on a much more controllable and predictable outcome. And that is peoples lust for competitive play and being the best. Not being the best based on gear stats but other factors.

stof.9341:

Chrissle.8690:

There´s one flaw in your philosphy about only farming for looks though. Imagine a new dungeon coming out. Only new looks on the dungeon sets, not better stats. 50% of the player base likes the looks, 50% hate them. What incentive do the 50% that hate the looks of the new armor have to do the content?

Around the same motivation that I have doing dungeons where I don’t want the gear at the end : they are fun to do.

Some people have been brainwashed into believing that gear progressing equals fun and is a desirable goal in itself to keep them motivated playing.

The fun is the challenging content or not, and to show off that you have beaten it a new skin is all that’s need if you want to boast. Increasing stats has nothing to do with it whatsoever. It’s a lie, an illusion – you have not gotten better at the game just with stats because new content can be scaled to said new stats.

Jezath.7395:

I dissagree with your conclusions. Your empiric proof is flawed i feel. By this analogy then AC1 (asherons call) the grandfather of mmporgs is also still succesful, its still around today in fact and that game came out in the early 90’s. In that game it was ALL about the grind and that is succesful also.

What the hell are you talking about.
You’re saying a model with horizontal / fashion progression will not be successful in a MMO, to which I present you an empirical proof of a game that had no gear progression whatsoever initially after about 2-3 weeks of play, but after just a year of its life after a week of play and it was immensely successful and popular for years, also after no content was added to it for most of the game’s life!

This model is something the developers said multiple times during the development years they will keep, They planned to keep other things as well that they dismissed, true, but they informed the community about it early and clearly (secondary professions, healers, heroes, sidekicks etc), but this principle of horizontal progression remained pivotal point of their marketing campaign all the time through release and after. So the fast that GW1 model not only influenced, but indeed is a base of the original GW2 model is not a conclusion or theory, it’s a fact confirmed by the creators themselves.
If you want to disagree, then please don’t waste my time and go dig into ANet blogs since the moment they’ve announced they will discontinue GW1 and will start working on GW2 first. Thank you.

Jezath.7395:

Sorry cherrie but i feel this is horizontal progression. If they said they wernt going to increase the stats of gear already in the game then yes i would agree this is vertical progression as you put it. But they are increasing stats of gear in the game already.. They havent said if this would be solely legendarys or not. so in fact they are in my mind adding in a layer of content to help casual players out. They are bringing in some gear that people can aquire along the road to aquiring there legendarys.

They are increasing stats of Legendary items only and yes they’ve said it.
They;ve clearly written Ascended gear will be better than Exotic, they’ve posted comprasion screenshot showing unchanged Exotic gear and they’ve written they will adjust Legendaries to match Ascended gear so Legendaries always stay on-par with the best gear in game.
They’ve also clearly named Ascended gear “new gear tier”. You can treat words and their meaning as loosely as you will, apparently that’s a new trend with Arena Net as well, but this is vertical. You know, tier, stat increase, already promised further increases in tiers.

Namu.5712:

They could have taken a cool approach to this. Rather then inserting a new tier of gear with the new content they could have simply created a sick gear set that is so amazingly detailed and awesome that you would be a fool not to run the new content for the gear. However, not everyone cares about looks, so while a great many people would be excited for the new content. Many just wouldn’t care. And just not bother because there is no “omg i gotta have that!” factor.

Which is why I think they need to shift their attention and focus on a much more controllable and predictable outcome. And that is peoples lust for competitive play and being the best.

Some people will grind for it and get bored XD nothing will change but nobody can accuse ANet for cheating us :P

But they are just taking an easy way out, I really like the blink blink backpack and don’t mind if the stats are lower than exotic…

Jezath.7395:

I dissagree with your conclusions. Your empiric proof is flawed i feel. By this analogy then AC1 (asherons call) the grandfather of mmporgs is also still succesful, its still around today in fact and that game came out in the early 90’s. In that game it was ALL about the grind and that is succesful also.

No one said that a grinding game isn’t succesfull or could be fun for some people. Hey, there is even a big one with pandas out there.

But here are many people that don’t like to grind and they thought that they did buy a game without grinding.

cherrie, I said your analogy was flawed, i dident actually comment on the rest of your post. What i said still stands you dident address it. I say again, imho This is not vertical progression it is horizontal. They are increasing stats of gear already in the game.

I understand if your angry or hurt or feel betrayed, but i think these feelings are coming from confusion and fear of change of whats happening here.

I am truly perplexed at the reaction of some people.
Are you guys really complaining about getting new stuff every month for free? Do you really don’t get it that they are throwing with content at us for free? Are you really saying I’m gonna stop playing their game because they added too much stuff and I want to prove how manly I am on the forums ?

Even if they do add a gear treadmill (which they don’t), even if they do add new item tiers on a regular base (which they will NOT do, stop reading between the bloody lines … “oh noes, why did they say 3 months? why not 4? is 3 a secret code for ‘mwuahahahaha’?”), they are still the best MMO company in my eyes. Because they kept the most important promise: Unparalleled content release rate which we don’t even have to pay for.

Am I also the only one who vaguely remembers the gazillion other trolls on the forum posting that there is nothing to do at lvl 80? I am quite positive that some them are also complaining here.

I understand that many have bought the game so they would not get a grind and for that badhealer i really feel yopur pain. There is ALOT of grind in this game. No matter how its camoflaged. This i agree with but the vertical progression i do not agree with.

johnnymanhands.7310:

Last night I spent a couple of hours idling in Lion’s Arch. Tonight I didn’t bother logging in at all.

The great tragedy of the new gear tier is that it was introduced in the name of progression, but has in fact killed all sense of progress in the game. By announcing new rings and backpeices that are superior to anything in the game today, you’ve effectively said “don’t bother working towards any of the existing back pieces and rings because they’re going to be salvage fodder after this weekend” and by announcing that ascended pieces will be phased into all other slots over coming patches you’ve effectively said “oh and don’t bother with these either”. Instead of adding a sense of progression between exotics and legendaries, you’ve removed all incentive to progress towards anything but legendaries because they’re the only thing that won’t be superceded by your coming patches.

If this announcement hadn’t come out, I’d probably be out in WvW right now earning badges for my Soldier’s jewellery set to use in a linebacker build for my warrior or farming gold to get some rampages armour for my elementalist. Getting new gear for new builds and new classes, that was “progression”, instead I’m writing a forum post because there’s no point in working towards jewellery or armour that will be soon be worthless.

The thing with gear is that regardless of how many different colours that are on item descriptions, there are only 2 effective tiers:

• Tier 1: The optimal gear for a build that you want to play
• Tier 2: Gear you salvage/sell to get optimal gear for a build that you want to play.

In the 700 hrs since launch I’d collected over 50 exotics which I used to run 6 different builds across my 2 level 80 characters. Those exotics have now been relegated from tier 1 to tier 2 and there is no point grinding out sets for new builds if I’ll just have to do it again in a few days/weeks/months. A sadder story belongs to my sub-80 characters, with the new tier being only partially introduced they have no gear to even aim for if they hit the level cap, so they’ll likely never be played.

I’m not adverse to grind, someone does not play as many hours as I do without enjoying it. In fact, I’d shudder to think how many griffons and raptors met their end in my pursuit of loot, but there needs to be a purpose to it and that is where the introduction of new gear tiers hurts the game. If you don’t get to keep the rewards of your effort, then it negates the thrill of getting it in the first place.

I’ve been playing Guild Wars since 2005, have racked up over 8000 hours (including an average of 9.5h/day since the launch of gw2!) and have spent hundreds of dollars on storage, bag slots and character slots – suffice to say I’m about as personally invested in this game as its possible for a player to be. If it were a sport team, I’d be one of those guys in the stands wearing nothing but body paint. When I see you changing the defining quality of the game, I can’t help but be disappointed. I’ll still be logged in at 3am Saturday when the patch goes live, but I know the experience will one filled with melancholy rather than excitement.

I hope that you’ll reconsider the new direction and I’ll get to keep the game I love.

PS. http://imgur.com/KxffM This is the r9 15/-5 Fellblade that dropped for me in 2005 during the first week of Sorrow’s Furnace. It was with me every step for the next seven 7 years, together we saved 3 continents, killed a god, fought our way to hall of heroes and defended our guild against invaders and my new gw2 warrior still wields it today thanks to the hall of monuments. It is as much a part of my Guild Wars story as my warrior was. Having it in no way lessened the excitement when I finally obtained a 15/50 sephis sword, but do think that I as a player would have had the same level of investment in it if I had had to get a new, more powerful one for each of the original expansions?

Thank you for a great post. This is exactly what all those that have ‘no problem’ with gear progression seems to utterly miss, either by lack of experience, failure in using a bit of abstract thinking to make up for not having it experienced first hand, or simple ignorance.

At the end of the road every gear treadmill leads to burn out and quitting, no matter how long the process takes. If that’s what keeps you playing, you will stop playing at one point in the future.

Caran.3217:

stof.9341:

Chrissle.8690:

There´s one flaw in your philosphy about only farming for looks though. Imagine a new dungeon coming out. Only new looks on the dungeon sets, not better stats. 50% of the player base likes the looks, 50% hate them. What incentive do the 50% that hate the looks of the new armor have to do the content?

Around the same motivation that I have doing dungeons where I don’t want the gear at the end : they are fun to do.

Some people have been brainwashed into believing that gear progressing equals fun and is a desirable goal in itself to keep them motivated playing.

The fun is the challenging content or not, and to show off that you have beaten it a new skin is all that’s need if you want to boast. Increasing stats has nothing to do with it whatsoever. It’s a lie, an illusion – you have not gotten better at the game just with stats because new content can be scaled to said new stats.

Its not really brainwashing.

Why do you buy a faster fancier car in real life? For the appeal, for the power, and for the looks.

Its really human nature, and its especially prevalent in the USA where your social status/worth is based on how many shiny’s you own and how much they cost.

You spend years grinding for that fast sports car, then you get it and of course the first thing you do is parade around town showing off its sleek lines…. then after that you take it out on the open road and gun it and watch the speed rise and say to yourself ya this things got so much power and speed compared to my old car!

Now flip that into the mmo world… you spend hours/days/weeks/months grinding for that new gear that has boosted stats. It looks better, its stonger. You get it and you put it on dye do whatever your gonna do with it and go show off… then you go kill some bad guys with your fancy gear and say oh ya I hit way harder now!

You see this mentality directly translates from how you think in real life. Well maybe not how you think personnally but how a great number of people in general think.

SuddenlyOnFire.3162:

Are you guys really complaining about getting new stuff every month for free?

I’m getting some new dungeon. In return I’m paying with the stuff I’ve gotten so far plus the time I sank into my characters’ equipment. I’m losing more than I gain, but the exchange is not optional, it’s forced on me.

Furthermore, I’d been promised that the time I put into the game would be respected. That I would be respected. Now, it’s being devalued.

I can’t understand how you can think the new stuff comes for free.
The new stuff is free only if your time and commitment so far are worthless.

Jezath.7395:

Sorry cherrie but i feel this is horizontal progression. If they said they wernt going to increase the stats of gear already in the game then yes i would agree this is vertical progression as you put it. But they are increasing stats of gear in the game already.. They havent said if this would be solely legendarys or not. so in fact they are in my mind adding in a layer of content to help casual players out. They are bringing in some gear that people can aquire along the road to aquiring there legendarys.

Remember the manifesto, most of ppl are here because of that.
No one say that a grindy game is a bad game… i played WOW for about 2 years and i enjoy it every moment… but a was looking for something different, with the constant need to upgrade my gear time to time to be competitive. GW since the start was a real spark of light… i take a month to gather my first exotic set, and for me the real game is started when the last exotic piece was setted on my charecter.
Gather equipment is not playing… its a preparation for the real play…and i simply dont want to be always in preparation!

Perhaps now that they’ve decided to massively change from the game vision they sold people on, they should instigate mass refunds?

I mean I personally would not have bought another WoW clone, which they claimed they were never going to be, and yet here we are gear treadmills already.

SuddenlyOnFire.3162:

I am truly perplexed at the reaction of some people.
Are you guys really complaining about getting new stuff every month for free? Do you really don’t get it that they are throwing with content at us for free? Are you really saying I’m gonna stop playing their game because they added too much stuff and I want to prove how manly I am on the forums ?

Even if they do add a gear treadmill (which they don’t), even if they do add new item tiers on a regular base (which they will NOT do, stop reading between the bloody lines … “oh noes, why did they say 3 months? why not 4? is 3 a secret code for ‘mwuahahahaha’?”), they are still the best MMO company in my eyes. Because they kept the most important promise: Unparalleled content release rate which we don’t even have to pay for.

Am I also the only one who vaguely remembers the gazillion other trolls on the forum posting that there is nothing to do at lvl 80? I am quite positive that some them are also complaining here.

You should be perplexed, those level 80 trolls are the ones applauding for the new gears.

You must also understand that we (the gamers) also need to put effort & time to enjoy the new content, it takes both hands to clap.

I doubt complainers will stop playing the game, most will just be stopping their microtransactions and spend less time on GW2, thats all. This will hurt GW2, and bring it to a slippery spiral.

One of the selling points of this game for my (multi-game) guild was that there would be no gear-of-the-month grind. It was a VERY important selling point for us. We’re for the most part open world PVPers, but we’re at this inconvenient age where we have spouses, kids, PhD studies, jobs etc. We don’t want to spend weeks upon weeks grinding 24/7 doing something (especially something we don’t like doing, like endless dungeons) just so we can be competitive in the thing we like doing best. And we are REALLY REALLY tired of games where the guys who live on line or exploit the hell out of the game end up with the uber sword of onshotting players, of games where a monkey equipped in the best available gear just has to roll its face over the keyboard to win, while skill means zilch.

So er yeah, Arenanet, what exactly do you think you’re doing here? Going back on your promise of account wide dyes was bad enough… adding a gear grind is infinitely worse.

Namu.5712:

They could have taken a cool approach to this. Rather then inserting a new tier of gear with the new content they could have simply created a sick gear set that is so amazingly detailed and awesome that you would be a fool not to run the new content for the gear. However, not everyone cares about looks, so while a great many people would be excited for the new content. Many just wouldn’t care. And just not bother because there is no “omg i gotta have that!” factor.

Which is why I think they need to shift their attention and focus on a much more controllable and predictable outcome. And that is peoples lust for competitive play and being the best.

The fact an increasing amount of new content would require infusions to be enjoyed would have motivated most players to obtain infusion slots on their exotics whether they liked the looks of the new supercool sets you can get in the fractals or not.

BUT

Their exotic gear was still top in power and they weren’t lied to.

That’s all I’m saying.

I’m fine with agony.

I’m fine with infusions and infusion slots.

I’m NOT fine with being lied /manipulated / deceived / however you want to call it and with game phylosophy u-turns after I’m already invested in a game.

I agree with you ganzo and i feel the same way. I do. However I really truly beleive that this is not happening here. They are upgrading the stats of gear already ingame. Im sorry if im starting to sound like a broken record here but really, people seem to be missing this major point.

Ganzo.5079:

Jezath.7395:

Sorry cherrie but i feel this is horizontal progression. If they said they wernt going to increase the stats of gear already in the game then yes i would agree this is vertical progression as you put it. But they are increasing stats of gear in the game already.. They havent said if this would be solely legendarys or not. so in fact they are in my mind adding in a layer of content to help casual players out. They are bringing in some gear that people can aquire along the road to aquiring there legendarys.

Remember the manifesto, most of ppl are here because of that.
No one say that a grindy game is a bad game… i played WOW for about 2 years and i enjoy it every moment… but a was looking for something different, with the constant need to upgrade my gear time to time to be competitive. GW since the start was a real spark of light… i tanke a month to gather my first exotic set, and for me the real game is started when the last exotic piece was setted on my charecter.
Gather equipment is not playing… its a preparation for the real play…and i simply dont want to be always in preparation!

What if your getting the equipment as you play the new content?

Say theres a dungeon, theres 5 rooms and a boss room. You have to go through the 5 rooms and defeat the 5 miniboss’s. Now each mini boss drops your new armor garanteed. So by the time you get to the inner depths of the dungeon you already have your new items and are ready for battle. You didn’t have to gear up before entering to even attempt it but rather got your gear progressively from the dungeon on your way to the end.

Would you then consider your time devalued and that you had to prepare for the real play when the real play is what awarded you your gear?

Jezath.7395:

I agree with you ganzo and i feel the same way. I do. However I really truly beleive that this is not happening here. They are upgrading the stats of gear already ingame. Im sorry if im starting to sound like a broken record here but really, people seem to be missing this major point.

They are upgrading the stats on legendary gear, the stuff that has a massive grind because they have ‘look at me’ level of special skins.

Originally they were an optional thing, they have the same stats as exotic weapons, they just look special. Now they will become necessary because they will be the ‘best’ weapons stat wise.

Given that the primary method of getting these weapons is to pay real money, it is complete bull kitten.

Jezath.7395:

imho This is not vertical progression it is horizontal. They are increasing stats of gear already in the game.

please show me where exactly in game right now are the items with ascended stats?

im sure they dont exist, but please show me…

imo ascended gear should be statistically equal to rare gear including upgrade with an infusion slot, that would make them a horizontal progression from exotic as you can choose + stats to exotic or + infusion to ascended

Mik Hell.8206:

I would be glad if ANet could answer one question:

Is Ascended tier going to be the last to be introduced or we will see Ascended 1, Ascended 2, 3 and so on?

Even if “filling the gap” sounds like an excuse on ANet’s side, anyone can make mistakes, but if this is only the beginnning of a tier system…

Well then all they said in the manifesto, all their declarations are nothing but a bunch of lies and I will not play a game made by liers.

I posted earlier on about this.
Lvl cap will probably increase with expansions and i’d assume with it, new higher lvl gear will be released aswell unless they’ll have some different lvl/gear progression.

If this content update (and maybe future updates pre-expansion) introduces a new mechanic (infusions) for dungeons at current lvl 80 cap, i’d assume once cap is raised, the mechanics for dungeons will be further expanded together with higher lvl gear.

But for now, this is only speculation on my behalf but i’d love to know the game’s lvl and gear roadmap.

Jezath.7395:

cherrie, I said your analogy was flawed, i dident actually comment on the rest of your post. What i said still stands you dident address it. I say again, imho This is not vertical progression it is horizontal. They are increasing stats of gear already in the game.

I understand if your angry or hurt or feel betrayed, but i think these feelings are coming from confusion and fear of change of whats happening here.

Then please explain why my analogy is flawed. I do my best to explain why I believe your opinion is wrong.

Nothing about your preference of course, to each their own: I respect the fact that this kind of mechanics might be what you enjoy, but I don’t and I find it unacceptable that a product I bought that was quite clearly advertised in this aspect is flip-flopped into something I have no interest in at all.

Also, I am not confused about what is happening here.
I’ve played many MMOs and in each and single one of them, apart from GW1, my complain was exactly the same: vertical gear progression. In one of them as well gear gating (Radiance in LotRO), which is, to my dismay, though lesser, picked up by ANet as Infusion.
I know perfectly what type of game I don’t want to play. It’s a game with vertical progression. I bought one without it and just naming it differently won’t change the fact that this is a change that is bringing one.
To add insult to injury, the change is sudden, unexpected and comes so soon after release. If I sound harsh then I’m sorry, but I’m really getting fed up with people saying “vertical gear progression is the only way”, when it clearly isn’t: they’ve either didn’t try anything else, or it’s just their preference not to like it; and also of people trying to spin words to make it a different thing than it really is.

Jezath.7395:

I agree with you ganzo and i feel the same way. I do. However I really truly beleive that this is not happening here. They are upgrading the stats of gear already ingame. Im sorry if im starting to sound like a broken record here but really, people seem to be missing this major point.

They are upgrading the stats of legendaries, not exotics. Legendaries are owned by a tiny percentage of the player base, and so far are only limited to weapons anyway.

All armors and most weapons today are at most exotics (because stat-wise there isn’t anything better in the game) and will become more and more obsolete.

Which is the opposite of what was promised in the manifesto and in other statements by ANet representatives.

toomuchtatose.6874:

SuddenlyOnFire.3162:

I am truly perplexed at the reaction of some people.
Are you guys really complaining about getting new stuff every month for free? Do you really don’t get it that they are throwing with content at us for free? Are you really saying I’m gonna stop playing their game because they added too much stuff and I want to prove how manly I am on the forums ?

Even if they do add a gear treadmill (which they don’t), even if they do add new item tiers on a regular base (which they will NOT do, stop reading between the bloody lines … “oh noes, why did they say 3 months? why not 4? is 3 a secret code for ‘mwuahahahaha’?”), they are still the best MMO company in my eyes. Because they kept the most important promise: Unparalleled content release rate which we don’t even have to pay for.

Am I also the only one who vaguely remembers the gazillion other trolls on the forum posting that there is nothing to do at lvl 80? I am quite positive that some them are also complaining here.

You should be perplexed, those level 80 trolls are the ones applauding for the new gears.

You must also understand that we (the gamers) also need to put effort & time to enjoy the new content, it takes both hands to clap.

I doubt complainers will stop playing the game, most will just be stopping their microtransactions and spend less time on GW2, thats all. This will hurt GW2, and bring it to a slippery spiral.

im sorry but the supposition in your post just gos too far.. I took a little offense at this as I am in no way a troll. I really enjoy this game and I also support the new patch fully, please go through my posts if you do not beleive me. I support this patch but I have never moaned about nothing to do at level 80.

============

Jezath.7395:

I agree with you ganzo and i feel the same way. I do. However I really truly beleive that this is not happening here. They are upgrading the stats of gear already ingame. Im sorry if im starting to sound like a broken record here but really, people seem to be missing this major point.

There is a point missing… there is no real answer by the team.

If this new set is only a “gap filling” ok… a lost a month of play for nothing, aiming in the wrong direction… ill collect the new tier and i start the game again but this is the last time.

But if its the start of a new trend… I really want to know it…because this is not what a payed for, and this is not the thing a want to pay in the future.

we need a clear and DEFINITIVE ANSWER about the future…

and for the player that say

take is easy, its only a game, play and dont cry

its not only a game, its my free time, its my hobby, and its my money…so i dont take it easy.

Zephaust Zenith.8376:

I posted earlier on about this.
Lvl cap will probably increase with expansions and i’d assume with it, new higher lvl gear will be released aswell unless they’ll have some different lvl/gear progression.

Unless I’m mistaking you with someone else, you actually attributed that claim to ANet themselves.
I’d like a source for that if you wouldn’t mind. Thank you.

Jezath.7395:

I agree with you ganzo and i feel the same way. I do. However I really truly beleive that this is not happening here. They are upgrading the stats of gear already ingame. Im sorry if im starting to sound like a broken record here but really, people seem to be missing this major point.

Yes, exactly, once I have 6 pieced of legendary armor, 2 legendary weapons and legendary trinkets, I’ve escaped the treadmill!

Oh wait…
…there’s no legendary tinkets or armor.
…legendaries may get infusion slots; even though their stats are raised, they still won’t shield me from agony so I’d still have to grind (for infusions, which will have quality levels, ensuring future grind for better infusions).
…I can only make two legendaries per character.
…

But apart from those minor details, I agree, your point is valid.

Jezath.7395:

I agree with you ganzo and i feel the same way. I do. However I really truly beleive that this is not happening here. They are upgrading the stats of gear already ingame. Im sorry if im starting to sound like a broken record here but really, people seem to be missing this major point.

For Legendaries ONLY. That are the ones where you would need to grind for hunderst of hours to get them.

Most of us where quite happy with a game that only needs a minimum of grind to get max gear = exotics. Now we should grind for many hours, although this game was supposed to be a non-grind game.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Jezath.7395:

imho This is not vertical progression it is horizontal. They are increasing stats of gear already in the game.

please show me where exactly in game right now are the items with ascended stats?

im sure they dont exist, but please show me…

They are increasing stats on Legendary items. No more optional-anything. Legendary weaps are a must, and soon Legendary armor as well.

Here’s what I don’t understand.

I understand people feel lied to and so on.

But, didn’t they say they would be increasing level cap? And that they would be releasing new gear? Naturally that would make old gear obsolete, wouldn’t it? Or was it expected that the old 80 gear would maintain the same stats as say 85 gear.

Would that not get a little boring with so little change? If you look at the game as it is now could you see yourself one year from now doing the same exact thing but in a different scenery? Same hp, same everything. Your just smacking a different monster around.

I didn’t play gw1 but didn’t they have some kind of infusion system as well? Or did I read wrong.

phooka.4295:

Yes, exactly, once I have 6 pieced of legendary armor, 2 legendary weapons and legendary trinkets, I’ve escaped the treadmill!

Oh wait…
…there’s no legendary tinkets or armor.
…legendaries don’t have infusion slots; even if their stats are raised, they still won’t shield me from agony so I’d still have to grind (for infusions).
…I can only make two legendaries per character.
…

But apart from those minor details, I agree, your point is valid.

Just for the sake of truth legendaries will have infusion slots, but that doesn’t detract one tiny bit from your point which is still completely valid.

Ganzo.5079:

we need a clear and DEFINITIVE ANSWER about the future…

and for the player that say

take is easy, its only a game, play and dont cry

its not only a game, its my free time, its my hobby, and its my money…so i dont take it easy.

Precisely: my free time, my hobby and my money as well.

If they want GW2 to become like every other MMO, feel free.
But I did not sign up for this. I spent my money, time and effort in a game advertised very differently. I want to know, plain and clear: vertical progression or not? Is that the absolutely last gear tier increase / update that will make me change my gear to stay competitive / be able to experience a part of content, no matter how small?

If it’s not, than I wish you luck, but I’m out.

Namu.5712:

Ganzo.5079:

Jezath.7395:

Sorry cherrie but i feel this is horizontal progression. If they said they wernt going to increase the stats of gear already in the game then yes i would agree this is vertical progression as you put it. But they are increasing stats of gear in the game already.. They havent said if this would be solely legendarys or not. so in fact they are in my mind adding in a layer of content to help casual players out. They are bringing in some gear that people can aquire along the road to aquiring there legendarys.

Remember the manifesto, most of ppl are here because of that.
No one say that a grindy game is a bad game… i played WOW for about 2 years and i enjoy it every moment… but a was looking for something different, with the constant need to upgrade my gear time to time to be competitive. GW since the start was a real spark of light… i tanke a month to gather my first exotic set, and for me the real game is started when the last exotic piece was setted on my charecter.
Gather equipment is not playing… its a preparation for the real play…and i simply dont want to be always in preparation!

What if your getting the equipment as you play the new content?

Say theres a dungeon, theres 5 rooms and a boss room. You have to go through the 5 rooms and defeat the 5 miniboss’s. Now each mini boss drops your new armor garanteed. So by the time you get to the inner depths of the dungeon you already have your new items and are ready for battle. You didn’t have to gear up before entering to even attempt it but rather got your gear progressively from the dungeon on your way to the end.

Would you then consider your time devalued and that you had to prepare for the real play when the real play is what awarded you your gear?

What if you have alts? Worse, what if someone joins the game in six months to find that the only people running Fractals are people who are already Infused, who refuse to accept Uninfused into the group? What happens when the nect level of Ascended and Infused items come, and players who move on to this content refuse to accept Extotically equipped, Uninfused players into their parties for the new content? What if the game wouldn’t let those players survive anyway?

It gates content, adds a gear grind and makes something that might have been fun somewhat less so.

Urxx.6840:

phooka.4295:

Yes, exactly, once I have 6 pieced of legendary armor, 2 legendary weapons and legendary trinkets, I’ve escaped the treadmill!

Oh wait…
…there’s no legendary tinkets or armor.
…legendaries don’t have infusion slots; even if their stats are raised, they still won’t shield me from agony so I’d still have to grind (for infusions).
…I can only make two legendaries per character.
…

But apart from those minor details, I agree, your point is valid.

Just for the sake of truth legendaries will have infusion slots, but that doesn’t detract one tiny bit from your point which is still completely valid.

Thanks for the clarification, will try to edit it.

Namu.5712:

But, didn’t they say they would be increasing level cap? And that they would be releasing new gear? Naturally that would make old gear obsolete, wouldn’t it? Or was it expected that the old 80 gear would maintain the same stats as say 85 gear.

I keep pretty up to date but I can’t remember a single instance where they stated they would raise level cap, or that newly released gear would be more powerful than exotics.

Someone else affirmed what you just said, but so far nobody has provided any evidence whatsoever backing those claims.

SuddenlyOnFire.3162:

I am truly perplexed at the reaction of some people.
Are you guys really complaining about getting new stuff every month for free? Do you really don’t get it that they are throwing with content at us for free? Are you really saying I’m gonna stop playing their game because they added too much stuff and I want to prove how manly I am on the forums ?

Even if they do add a gear treadmill (which they don’t), even if they do add new item tiers on a regular base (which they will NOT do, stop reading between the bloody lines … “oh noes, why did they say 3 months? why not 4? is 3 a secret code for ‘mwuahahahaha’?”), they are still the best MMO company in my eyes. Because they kept the most important promise: Unparalleled content release rate which we don’t even have to pay for.

Am I also the only one who vaguely remembers the gazillion other trolls on the forum posting that there is nothing to do at lvl 80? I am quite positive that some them are also complaining here.

So ANet is a charity organisation to make players happy right?

Their business model before this 180° turn was:
Support the game by buying stuff with real money because we made cool stuff. If you like it, please pay for our efforts: OPTIONAL PAYMENT!

The new business model is: We tier/gate/key content so if you want to keep playing new content you either grind your backside off or you MUST PAY. If your friends want to play with you, and aren’t up to date in gear, they MUST PAY as well.

I think the old business model was the better one. Sure some player might not have liked something they designed, so they made less money. That choice is now being taken away. They got greedy and clearly intend to introduce a ‘hidden’ subscription fee through the gem-store.
Risky gamble i might say, this will not end well, mark my words.

Tinfoil hat on-
Wonder if NCSoft has any say in content of this game as they are technically the company that owns them.

Much like EA has ruined games run by studios like Anet.

Just curious.

Jezath.7395:

toomuchtatose.6874:

SuddenlyOnFire.3162:

I am truly perplexed at the reaction of some people.
Are you guys really complaining about getting new stuff every month for free? Do you really don’t get it that they are throwing with content at us for free? Are you really saying I’m gonna stop playing their game because they added too much stuff and I want to prove how manly I am on the forums ?

Even if they do add a gear treadmill (which they don’t), even if they do add new item tiers on a regular base (which they will NOT do, stop reading between the bloody lines … “oh noes, why did they say 3 months? why not 4? is 3 a secret code for ‘mwuahahahaha’?”), they are still the best MMO company in my eyes. Because they kept the most important promise: Unparalleled content release rate which we don’t even have to pay for.

Am I also the only one who vaguely remembers the gazillion other trolls on the forum posting that there is nothing to do at lvl 80? I am quite positive that some them are also complaining here.

You should be perplexed, those level 80 trolls are the ones applauding for the new gears.

You must also understand that we (the gamers) also need to put effort & time to enjoy the new content, it takes both hands to clap.

I doubt complainers will stop playing the game, most will just be stopping their microtransactions and spend less time on GW2, thats all. This will hurt GW2, and bring it to a slippery spiral.

im sorry but the supposition in your post just gos too far.. I took a little offense at this as I am in no way a troll. I really enjoy this game and I also support the new patch fully, please go through my posts if you do not beleive me. I support this patch but I have never moaned about nothing to do at level 80.

============

I believe you, seriously. The trolls are those in Orr awaiting for more hoards while the rest of us are exploring, doing dungeons, RP-ing, etc.

I’m have 5 level 60+ toons and I believe I’m not even 50% in the game yet.

Namu.5712:

Here’s what I don’t understand.

I understand people feel lied to and so on.

But, didn’t they say they would be increasing level cap? And that they would be releasing new gear? Naturally that would make old gear obsolete, wouldn’t it? Or was it expected that the old 80 gear would maintain the same stats as say 85 gear.

Would that not get a little boring with so little change? If you look at the game as it is now could you see yourself one year from now doing the same exact thing but in a different scenery? Same hp, same everything. Your just smacking a different monster around.

I didn’t play gw1 but didn’t they have some kind of infusion system as well? Or did I read wrong.

Please point out where they said they would raise the levelcap. I’ve never seen them mention that.

As you said you never played GW1 so you lack experience with the system. Most of us did not get bored being level 20 all the time and wearing the same armor.

Namu.5712:

But, didn’t they say they would be increasing level cap? And that they would be releasing new gear? Naturally that would make old gear obsolete, wouldn’t it? Or was it expected that the old 80 gear would maintain the same stats as say 85 gear.

I don’t recall ANet saying anything about level cap increase.
At the same time, I have no quote whatsoever to say otherwise so I’d like a source on that if possible, however I always believed that constant level cap would be part of the base design, like in GW1, albeit in GW2 it would be higher.

On that note, I would expect Anet to mention something about what would happen to Legendaries when they increase level cap, they haven’t done that either.

Conner.4702:

Please point out where they said they would raise the levelcap. I’ve never seen them mention that.

Havn’t you learned anything?

It doesn’t matter what they said they’d do or they’d never do. It doesn’t matter one bit since what they say is no indicator for what they do.

Safer Saviour.9685:

Namu.5712:

Ganzo.5079:

Jezath.7395:

Sorry cherrie but i feel this is horizontal progression. If they said they wernt going to increase the stats of gear already in the game then yes i would agree this is vertical progression as you put it. But they are increasing stats of gear in the game already.. They havent said if this would be solely legendarys or not. so in fact they are in my mind adding in a layer of content to help casual players out. They are bringing in some gear that people can aquire along the road to aquiring there legendarys.

Remember the manifesto, most of ppl are here because of that.
No one say that a grindy game is a bad game… i played WOW for about 2 years and i enjoy it every moment… but a was looking for something different, with the constant need to upgrade my gear time to time to be competitive. GW since the start was a real spark of light… i tanke a month to gather my first exotic set, and for me the real game is started when the last exotic piece was setted on my charecter.
Gather equipment is not playing… its a preparation for the real play…and i simply dont want to be always in preparation!

What if your getting the equipment as you play the new content?

Say theres a dungeon, theres 5 rooms and a boss room. You have to go through the 5 rooms and defeat the 5 miniboss’s. Now each mini boss drops your new armor garanteed. So by the time you get to the inner depths of the dungeon you already have your new items and are ready for battle. You didn’t have to gear up before entering to even attempt it but rather got your gear progressively from the dungeon on your way to the end.

Would you then consider your time devalued and that you had to prepare for the real play when the real play is what awarded you your gear?

What if you have alts? Worse, what if someone joins the game in six months to find that the only people running Fractals are people who are already Infused, who refuse to accept Uninfused into the group? What happens when the nect level of Ascended and Infused items come, and players who move on to this content refuse to accept Extotically equipped, Uninfused players into their parties for the new content? What if the game wouldn’t let those players survive anyway?

It gates content, adds a gear grind and makes something that might have been fun somewhat less so.

Ah okay I get what your saying about that, and yes ive run into that alot in other games…. what gear you have…. nope sorry you have to have this gear to run in our group, regardless of if you can run it flawlessly…

I however run into this anyways as a ranger in this game. Sorry we dont want a ranger in our group your damage sucks and your pet is useless…… >.> totally sucks.

But ya content gating is bad, players make it worse.