Guild Wars 2

I don’t think it sends a message if you keep playing the game but just stay out of a couple new maps (which new content may or may not actually be 100% confined to). Aside from the fact that the new maps and a new dungeon is the good kind of content and the sort of thing that should be encouraged, the only data you’d really be giving them is “This player does not have any Ascended gear – and neither do these other hundred thousand people, some of whom don’t even have an Exotic.”

If you want to send a message, you can’t do it halfway. Quit, or get yourself permabanned, or something. Otherwise you might as well just not go out of your way for it.

The players manifesto is what brought so many players TO this game, the breaking of that manifesto and promise are what will cause so many players to LEAVE the game. It’s hard to respect a company that has spent years promising one thing, and then goes back on their promises.

I bought GW2 because I wanted something different from everything else, and what ArenaNet’s (now former, apparently) philosophy with GW2 was that they would never add a carrot on a stick/gear grind to the game, and that’s a huge design philosophy that set them apart from every other game and now they are going back on that promise. It will become just another old fashioned MMO that lacks vision, the truth is they could find ways around doing a gear treadill/carrot on a stick and they chose the cheap and easy route.

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

That carrot doesn’t need to be vertical progression. They have taken the easy, and in fact, cheap option.

Arenas 2vs2/3vs3, GvG, Housing, timed dungeons, duels, should i continue?

Shootsfoot.9276:

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

Quitting + getting a refund is essentially boycotting.

OMG, stop it.

You’re not getting a refund after playing the game for hundreds of hours.

Good lord.

I think you can get a refund in the EU up to six months.

Watch the Guildcast at about 24 – 25minutes in and they get into a good discussion about vertical progression. Seems the host had inside information IMO.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/guild-wars-video/guildcast-guild-wars-show/hawks-yetis/

Az z.2746:

Dear ANet, do you want to do gear progression?

Fine, but please keep it away from WvW.

We already have to grind gold for siege and structure upgrades, don’t make us also grind equips every new content patch.

I assure you, the commanders have an endless supply of siege equipment. Especially in tiers 1-3.

OdinBudd.5298:

Holy cow, you would think this gear has already been released and tested with all the QQ going on in this thread. Does anyone think that waiting to see what it is, THEN QQ’ng would be a good idea? I understand the desire to not want a gear grind. I am also 100% in this boat and have no desire to get on that carousel of fail. But… I am also willing to wait until this new gear is released before slamming a game I have enjoyed so much, so far.

If it looks like crap and smells like crap, it’s crap. How far does the crap have to be shoved up your nose before you admit that it stinks?

stof.9341:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

3. The added stats on Ascended gear is NOT I repeat NOT a gear treadmill. A gear treadmill is adding in gear with significantly higher stats so you can clear content that is otherwise unclearable without said gear. This is not the case here. Ascended gear is in no way required to beat anything in the game. You can see 100% of the content in the game without ever getting ascended gear. Just like you can currently see 100% of the content in the game without getting exotic gear.

I was using suboptimal gear. I grinded money to get the best gear available. A patch came in and now the best gear available isn’t exotic it’s ascended. The treadmill just sent be back to step one : I am using suboptimal gear.

This is a treadmill.

How much would you pay for an exotic ring + gem before the patch? Around 2.5-3g for an exotic 80. Now that you know there’s a plain better ring available with the only infusion slot required to make the best use out of the new dungeon. How much are you ready to pay to get a 80 exotic ring?

So what you are saying is that there was already a gear treadmill in the game, you didn’t start with exotics, you had to grind and earn better gear.

Now there is new gear and you have to do the same thing… see nothing is changing, what you are defining as a gear treadmill is already in the game, it has been since launch, which is why it is crazy to freak out about it now that we are 2 months into the game.

Caedmon.6798:

Jeez…gamers are getting a bit nasty if your asking me.Where are the days where people were actually happy about anything and Stop complaining all the kitten time.Arent you guys getting tired of yourselfs ?

Don’t you remember a time when video games were made by nerds for nerds, and then by enthusiasts for enthusiasts? Now it’s made by corporations for profit and mindless drones. Their manifesto being 100% lies is a good example.

I am tired of something, yes. I’m tired of being made to feel “entitled” when I expect constant excellence and progression in video games but getting met with mediocrity, stagnation and lies. I’m tired of being sold a game like GW2 (manifesto version) but being given a game like SW:TOR with a sprinkle of Tyrian lore on it.

You can expand end game with dungeons that don’t suck… nuff said.

If I need to elaborate more well,,,

They pulled the wool over the eyes of the entire playerbase because they could not make useful activities at end game.

Lie + lie = even more players leaving than already are.

piitb.7635:

If Arenanet released legendary armor tomorrow, players would complain ascended gear isn’t strong enough.

You know there are expectations.

I didn’t blow my karma in certain items because I knew there were certain other items I wanted.

i didn’t spend gold on exotic level 74 weapons because I shot for level 80 exotics.

A core of expectations about GW2 is that gear wont become obsolete with a patch, it was that grind would be cosmetic.

As shootsfoot said, you can not play the game for hours on end and expect a refund, it does not work that way.

I should start making notes of the players that are making topics about boycotting, I guarantee if I check this weekend every one of them will be playing.

-New dungeons
-New end game maps
-New story + bosses
-New (actually rewarding) activites (reworking/balancing inquisition pvp mode would have been a good idea, more clocktower like jumping puzzle)
-New pvp modes/maps
-New legendaries (including armor) and ways to aquire them (read epic quest for precursor or something)
-New mystic forge recipe (rare skins, pets or utility items, even a mount would be more worthy than those new armors that just says it all)
-New crafting recipes
-New (actually challenging with chance of failure and more rewarding) world bosses in pretty much every maps. Reworking the old ones would be a good idea.
-Random wvw updates to keep it fresh

New gears isn’t a good answer to end game. Everyone dedicated enough will get them in 1 week and quit again because there’s pretty much nothing to do with them.

Fix the downscaling, for one. This isn’t the only thing they need to do, but it’s probably the easiest in terms of effort vs. reward. (Not to say that the effort would be small, but there’s a huge amount of payoff.) Right now, there aren’t many reasons to go back to lower level zones – i.e., the vast majority of the game. The karma rewards (IIRC) aren’t quite as good, and I’m guessing the money rewards aren’t either; half the loot I get is level appropriate for the zone, not me; and things die too easily. Make the rest of the game as profitable and challenging as Orr, and suddenly there’s a lot more endgame.

Yes, we need other things, too, but this is one way to dramatically expand the content available to level 80s without having to create a bunch of new content for level 80s.

Sky.9347:

showatt.9413:

nachtnebel.9168:

showatt.9413:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Perfectly said.

In fact I actually hope they bring out even more gears with better stat in the future, so that dungeon can grow in their difficulty as well.

Difficulty has nothing to do with gear progression. Things don’t get more difficult just because all numbers get higher.

Difficulty has a lot to do with gear progression. Things do get more difficult because numbers are higher.

If the monster stats are going up, and my stats are going up… then there is no difference.

The delta is the same, the difficulty has not changed one bit.

.

That’s only the case if they HAND you a new set of armor without you grinding for them. Having a progression give them the ability to design new dungeons base on that new tier of armor.

This dungeon will probably tailored to people wearing exotic. The next dungeon though will be tailored to those wearing Asc gears.

In short, gear progression does has something to do with how difficult the future dungeons are going to be.

Arena net with lies convinced me to buy gw 2.
I don’t buy more games from them

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

gw2 has had one of the launches for day 1 sales in the genre ever, and quite comparable to non mmo games.

1 million + prelaunch sales.
2.3 million launch week sales.
who knows how many units have been sold since.

to put it this way, revneue from gw2 for first month unit and MT sales put it above BNS’s revenue in korea, which toppled aion easily over night.

from a financial stand point, gw2 has been very succesful, and seemingly devs were expecting number sto become lower, at least their posts during headstart and the first few weeks giving high concurrency rates for any number of things not working correctly indicates that.

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

The new gear doesnt make exotics obsolete…they are only obsolete for that specific dungeon. Out in the pve world it would be better to have exotics.
If you check the linked items on the blogpost Anet made about the new content you will see that the Ascended gear has no rune slot. The infusion slot is only useful for the dungeon they are adding at the moment.

StormcrowX.9236:

prenavo.3926:

Metafrank.9017:

prenavo.3926:

This question only works if the majority of the games population answers this question. For that the majority of the players would have to be on the forums. I’m pretty sure more than half of the people who play never visit the forums.

So who were the people that were for it? Because Linsay states that the decision was made due to feedback of the community. Well, it’s certainly not THIS community, I think that is pretty obvious now.

This is actually something that I’d love to know myself. I really wish they would tell us exactly how they find out this stuff. I’m all for the new content coming in, but this one thing remains a mystery to everyone. To be fair, I think it’s something we should all know the specifics of.

This. Quoted and bolded for truth.

Because if the devs haven’t noticed by now, the feedback since the announcement has been overwhelmingly negative. So the question becomes, who the kitten thought this was a good idea and who the kitten is actually getting precedence (suggestions-wise)? Several popular and oft-asked for features eg. TP preview, FoV slider, appearance change, guild halls etc. have not been added, yet Anet had the time to implement this kind of nonsense.

Forums are the worst place to get a survey. And let’s not forget the many threads complaining about what to do at lvl80 that piled up over the course of 3 months. You kinda forgot that. Quit trying out the mob effect, and thinking you guys represent everyone. This is a hot topic that’s why there’s a huge thread. And gaining more playable content will help get some groups back. What’s wrong with that? You want Gw2 to be a successful game, but you do not want to support it if it goes a certain way. Some of us actually want to support a game if it’s good. Not by what some manifesto/blog said.

Yahti.9321:

The new gear doesnt make exotics obsolete…they are only obsolete for that specific dungeon. Out in the pve world it would be better to have exotics.
If you check the linked items on the blogpost Anet made about the new content you will see that the Ascended gear has no rune slot. The infusion slot is only useful for the dungeon they are adding at the moment.

If you properly read the blogpost you would know that Ascended armor has the upgrade slot already built-in. So yeah, they’re still better than exotics, even outside the dungeon.

HTXL.2598:

And yes, on my server, the people that were vocal when I asked in map chat felt it was a positive move. No one was vocal against it.

HM,and on my server i heared no positive voice, just negatives…

Yahti.9321:

The new gear doesnt make exotics obsolete…they are only obsolete for that specific dungeon. Out in the pve world it would be better to have exotics.
If you check the linked items on the blogpost Anet made about the new content you will see that the Ascended gear has no rune slot. The infusion slot is only useful for the dungeon they are adding at the moment.

Oh no, all the runes I put in my jewelry and in my back item will be usele—- oh wait

Johnson.4867:

Tallenn.9218:

For the first time in an MMO, I have the very best gear available. I was lead to believe that I would never have to upgrade in order to keep up with that.

I was NOT one of the people complaining they had nothing to do. I had PLENTY of things to do each time I logged in, and still more stuff on my to do list. I didn’t ask for more to keep me busy, and now I feel like I’m going to be forced to do things I didn’t really want to, taking my time away from things I really did.

I get that there’s only a couple of pieces of new gear, which will grow to more over time. So what happens when all of the ascended gear has been released, and I’ve spent all that time getting it? Will they release yet another tier then?

I truly thought this game was different- a game that wouldn’t cave to the masses that can’t handle life outside the Skinner box. I guess I was wrong.

With that logic, and you having so much to do then why do you even care what gear you have and that it might not be “the best”. The way you play, you dont need the best if you’re satisfied with running around the world discovering things, doing DEs OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER in orr to the point your eyes bleed, and crafting which can be done with any gear.

What I’m trying to say is why do you care if more gear comes out if you don’t really care about your gear….

In other words you’re saying “Don’t complain unless it’s something I want” ? The forums have been run constantly by the few complaining that they want a gear grind/raiding/mounts, but now that the other side shows up and says we don’t want it, your upset? Gotcha.

That is only for faulty products or service, not for irrational dissatisfaction.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

I understand what you’re saying, however, Anet didn’t “need” to do anything quick. The game is truly doing fine on it’s current path. Attempting to lure other MMO players at the risk of alienating your current fanbase has proven to be a very poor idea over and over and over again.

That’s an assumption based on everything being fine.

If things were fine, and this game we’re “doing fine,” I assert this move wouldn’t have happened at all.

That’s my whole point.

This move is being done because something with their current model isn’t working.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

StormcrowX.9236:

prenavo.3926:

Metafrank.9017:

prenavo.3926:

This question only works if the majority of the games population answers this question. For that the majority of the players would have to be on the forums. I’m pretty sure more than half of the people who play never visit the forums.

So who were the people that were for it? Because Linsay states that the decision was made due to feedback of the community. Well, it’s certainly not THIS community, I think that is pretty obvious now.

This is actually something that I’d love to know myself. I really wish they would tell us exactly how they find out this stuff. I’m all for the new content coming in, but this one thing remains a mystery to everyone. To be fair, I think it’s something we should all know the specifics of.

This. Quoted and bolded for truth.

Because if the devs haven’t noticed by now, the feedback since the announcement has been overwhelmingly negative. So the question becomes, who the kitten thought this was a good idea and who the kitten is actually getting precedence (suggestions-wise)? Several popular and oft-asked for features eg. TP preview, FoV slider, appearance change, guild halls etc. have not been added, yet Anet had the time to implement this kind of nonsense.

Forums are the worst place to get a survey. And let’s not forget the many threads complaining about what to do at lvl80 that piled up over the course of 3 months. You kinda forgot that. Quit trying out the mob effect, and thinking you guys represent everyone. This is a hot topic that’s why there’s a huge thread. And gaining more playable content will help get some groups back. What’s wrong with that? You want Gw2 to be a successful game, but you do not want to support it if it goes a certain way. Some of us actually want to support a game if it’s good. Not by what some manifesto/blog said.

A logical viewpoint.

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

It’s not going to bring in as many people as it pushes away and the people that it does bring in won’t stay for long because that crowd has no loyalty.

Swoo.5079:

piitb.7635:

If Arenanet released legendary armor tomorrow, players would complain ascended gear isn’t strong enough.

You know there are expectations.

I didn’t blow my karma in certain items because I knew there were certain other items I wanted.

i didn’t spend gold on exotic level 74 weapons because I shot for level 80 exotics.

A core of expectations about GW2 is that gear wont become obsolete with a patch, it was that grind would be cosmetic.

The cosmetic portion of the equation doesn’t change.

Transmutation stones still exist.

:)

Mandrax.7342:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

That carrot doesn’t need to be vertical progression. They have taken the easy, and in fact, cheap option.

Which is logical for a company that’s out to make money to do especially when their game is free to play and its going downhill.

Face it, if it wasn’t going down hill, if no one ever got bored grinding for skins and everything is the way it was back at launch, they probably would not have done this.

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

OdinBudd.5298:

Does anyone think that waiting to see what it is, THEN QQ’ng would be a good idea?

No. If there’s ever going to be a time to convince ArenaNet that this is a bad decision for the future of the game, then it’s now, before it’s introduced into the ecosystem. Once this gear is already out there, removing it will require ArenaNet to take it away from players who already have it – which is much more of a PR disaster than putting the brakes on this thing now and just calling a mulligan.

The only thing that comes close to a “gear treadmill” is the Infussions.

Once you have your Ascended armor then thats it! No more upgrading the armor after that, i think the reason they added the Ascended armor was because it was easyier than reworking every single Exoctic armor in the game.

PVE needs a major boost and Ascended armor and more importnatly Infussions is the sollution to this.

I suggest they introduce Ascended armor for PVP as well but that version wont have a Infussion upgrade slot it will just have a normal upgrade slot.

PVE needs life, and Infussions are the life saver.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

stof.9341:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

3. The added stats on Ascended gear is NOT I repeat NOT a gear treadmill. A gear treadmill is adding in gear with significantly higher stats so you can clear content that is otherwise unclearable without said gear. This is not the case here. Ascended gear is in no way required to beat anything in the game. You can see 100% of the content in the game without ever getting ascended gear. Just like you can currently see 100% of the content in the game without getting exotic gear.

I was using suboptimal gear. I grinded money to get the best gear available. A patch came in and now the best gear available isn’t exotic it’s ascended. The treadmill just sent be back to step one : I am using suboptimal gear.

This is a treadmill.

How much would you pay for an exotic ring + gem before the patch? Around 2.5-3g for an exotic 80. Now that you know there’s a plain better ring available with the only infusion slot required to make the best use out of the new dungeon. How much are you ready to pay to get a 80 exotic ring?

So what you are saying is that there was already a gear treadmill in the game, you didn’t start with exotics, you had to grind and earn better gear.

Now there is new gear and you have to do the same thing… see nothing is changing, what you are defining as a gear treadmill is already in the game, it has been since launch, which is why it is crazy to freak out about it now that we are 2 months into the game.

You do realize the difference between walking on a sidewalk, and a treadmill right?

A journey begins, and then ends.
A treadmill causes you to work without ever going anywhere.

With a set, defined gear progression – which ENDS permanently – we have a journey.
With a continuous stream of more powerful gear being added to the game, which will be required in order to continue engaging in the newest content – we have a treadmill.

I’m sort of surprised that you are too stupid to understand that difference. Or is it that you just have no real response and want to try to play gotcha with people who are truly upset by this betrayal?

Welcome to Guild Warcraft 2.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Forums are the worst place to get a survey.

True enough.
But it wouldn’t be that much of a problem to poll everyone who has an account, by placing a link on the startup-screen, would it?
Sure, multi-accounts would skew the result, but probably less than counting rage on the forum or throwing bones.

Some of us actually want to support a game if it’s good. Not by what some manifesto/blog said.

Problem is, going against what the game was supposed to be means for many that it isn’t a good game anymore.
I’m not too thrilled about the game as it was, now I’m even less enthusiastic.

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

Sorry for the snippet; but, history does not share your assumption. Historically, every MMO that has done that has failed miserably.

Crater.1625:

I don’t think it sends a message if you keep playing the game but just stay out of a couple new maps (which new content may or may not actually be 100% confined to). Aside from the fact that the new maps and a new dungeon is the good kind of content and the sort of thing that should be encouraged, the only data you’d really be giving them is “This player does not have any Ascended gear – and neither do these other hundred thousand people, some of whom don’t even have an Exotic.”

If you want to send a message, you can’t do it halfway. Quit, or get yourself permabanned, or something. Otherwise you might as well just not go out of your way for it.

We can agree to disagree as to whether a content boycott would be effective, I’m fine with that. The ascended gear is a necessity of some of the lost shores content, that’s the point of agony and infusion, therefore the content is not designed for me and I would rather just not play any of it.

Tyr.1965:

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

It’s not going to bring in as many people as it pushes away and the people that it does bring in won’t stay for long because that crowd has no loyalty.

But if you are actually “LOYAL” you would stay and play the game despite the change, would you not?

boycotts don’t work. quitting doesn’t work. whining and pitching a fit on public forums does work. this has been documented. it’s not pretty or mature but you have to go with what’s proven to work.

Avatar.1923:

Sad Swordfish.9743:

Ralph Koster (UO, SWG) had this idea that gamers had to create their own content, because hardcore gamers would exhaust it, before they could make new content, making everyone miserable.

His idea was that when you have world pvp, or a player run economy, players are competing against other players in a never ending activity. that in itself is a sandbox, where the possibilities and manipluative game systems are the content itself.
people can have fun for years just fighting over territory or be engaged in highly competitive matches to be the best. We know it from other game genres as well. people playing the same maps for years and years.

I think Anet should embrace the dynamic nature of GW2 and move away from the instanced dungeons. they are a relic, and not very social or MMOish. I would rather do more stuff in Tyria. in the open world. change things, take over towns, raise taxes on passing players and npcs. leave my mark on the world, take over places with the guild.

and thats why Eve Online is a cult.
not easily accessible, but definitely more revolutionary than gw2.

player created content is KEY

eve suffers from basic barriers to accessibility primarily through it’s obtuse/non intuitive controls. most players who try eve don’t get past the tutorial solely for this reason.

Arnath.2319:

The only thing that comes close to a “gear treadmill” is the Infussions.

Once you have your Ascended armor then thats it! No more upgrading the armor after that, i think the reason they added the Ascended armor was because it was easyier than reworking every single Exoctic armor in the game.

PVE needs a major boost and Ascended armor and more importnatly Infussions is the sollution to this.

I suggest they introduce Ascended armor for PVP as well but that version wont have a Infussion upgrade slot it will just have a normal upgrade slot.

PVE needs life, and Infussions are the life saver.

How long until people have all of the available Ascended pieces that they want, and enough Infusions banked to fill out their whole set?

What’s going to “breathe life” into the game after that?

showatt.9413:

Accept the reality; Gw2 was dying slowly when they thought this up.

It is WAY too early in the game’s life to say it was dying slowly. How do we know that people werent just taking a break and waiting for the new content to come out? There is no subscription fee. People will come and go. So now we should come to expect major overhauls to the game’s design philosophy everytime ANet gets nervous that activity is starting to dip?

Crackbone.5710:

This move.

Give me another logical reason that you would completely alter the core philosophy of all of your marketing and game design less than 3 months after the game launched.

It’s simple, the only reason you would do something like that is because the current model isn’t working. The blog post said as much. “We’ve listened to player feedback.”

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

It’s not that difficult to decipher.

This is the sad truth, by far the most plausible explanation of this whole situation anyone on these forums has voiced so far.

Waar Kijk Je Naar.8713:

bow.6179:

@Waar Kijk Je Naar. nobody asked for? So you speak for the entire GW2 community? I want it, so apparently you don’t speak for me.

I guess you’re the kind of person who would say “The GW2 community is asking for flying mounts, 50-man raids, gear-based PvP and easier dungeons”?

Amen. Makes me wonder why people like this even bought the game when it was specifically advertised as having no gear grinds/treadmills.

Ironangel.1548:

Tons of people are preparing to leave this game once the treadmill sets in.

Ironangel.1548:

Tons

O rly? Out of protest? And where are all these tons of people going to go? Before this was announced these people were the biggest GW2 apologists of all, claiming every other game was bad b/c it had a gear treadmill. So…you’re just going to stop playing MMO’s altogether….Or go to another MMO…that has a gear grind… I call shenanigans

One, too many assumptions are being made without all the facts. OMG THE SKY IS FALLING.

Two, there have been a variety of complaints recently related to content that can fit in one of several categories:
a. I’m so bored there is nothing to do/this game has no endgame
b. I’m so bored and there is no one else playing this game…

Ascended gear at this point, is one of the ways Arenanet is trying to grow the playerbase which is a good thing. They have spent so much time saying they are not a fan of gear grinds, so say what you want, but I will reserve judgment until I see exactly how this system works out.

Seems to me more people should, at the very least, be cautiously optimistic, that things are not going to be as bad as people think…

Aedelric.1287:

That is only for faulty products or service, not for irrational dissatisfaction.

What about false advertising?

Hey hey.

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Creslin.1758:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

HTXL.2598:

Crackbone.5710:

jboynton.7894:

Crackbone.5710:

Lordrosicky.5813:

They lied to us for years.

/Thread

Or, they fully intended to go the route they had “promised” only to find out it wasn’t going to meet the needs financially.

What would you have them do? Just allow the game to crash and burn?

Reality has a way of being a kitten when it comes to lofty ideals meeting a market driven economy.

GW1 was f2p from the start and had multiple expansions. That game was successful enough to warrant a sequel. This game is doing fine.

This isn’t 2004.

The market is a ton more competitive now. Furthermore, GW2 isn’t GW1. Not even close. The design of the game is completely different across the board.

This is a real MMORPG. People expect mechanics that will keep them engaged in their characters.

You can’t get by with MMOG mechanics in a MMORPG in 2012. There has to be a carrot or a reason for folks to keep playing.

And horizontal progression gets older faster than vertical.

Precisely.

Pulling all of the emotion out of this debate, you really have to consider the “Why.”

Why add vertical progression? I assert that it’s because their current model of horizontal progression isn’t retaining customers as they hoped it would. Furthermore, they likely had this entire model in their backpocket if the numbers stacked up this way.

It’s simple, Either you want Guild Wars 2 to be around as a healthy and profitable game for ANet and NCSoft for the next 3-5 years, or you want outdated mechanics from 2004.

They are, in my opinion as ANet has figured out, mutually exclusive, and it’s coming home to roost now as Ascended Gear.

Sorry man, but NCSoft’s financials just don’t mimic what you’re posting. Frankly put, the game had a massively successful launch and continues to be successful to this day. The problem is, that the suits who make the decisions get jealous of Blizzard. Period.

You cannot compete with WoW. This has been proven time and time again. The only thing that will kill WoW is Blizzard.

My interpretation of the numbers is far different than what the marketing speak out of NCSoft was.

Those numbers are far below what they should be for a title of this quality and size.

I want to be clear about something here :

I am not stating that a gear grind is the RIGHT way to do things. There are plenty of other ways you can add in character progression that’s more fun and more engaging.

However, the advantage to gear is this :

1. It’s quick. Same stats, marginally better, with a gated content slot. Easy to put it into the game, takes relatively little balance if the increases are largely the same across the board.

For whatever reason, and you can debate the why, I have my opinion, and you have yours, but, ANet clearly needed something “Quick.” If time wasn’t of the essence here, they would’ve gone a different route.

May I ask what you are basing your assertion that GW2 is essentially in a downward spiral on? Please do not say XFire.

This is a calculated move. ANet knows that this move is likely going to alienate a certain percentage of their players, however, it’s likely to open up the game to more players, who will stay longer and play more, and put more cash into the shop.

Sorry for the snippet; but, history does not share your assumption. Historically, every MMO that has done that has failed miserably.

Right because Wow is dead.

And that’s a game with gear progression IN PVP.

I’m sorry but your history seems a bit different from mine.

° For the game develops, I already think that the events should have much more impact in small areas. It extends to the major cities.

° Cities should main advanced, grow, or get more details. (eg City Asura would be Cafetera, dormitory, and jumping puzzle in it.)
Activities like the battle of barrels in the norn should be implemented in large cities.

° In the instance staff area:
– Addition of titles.
– Museum of armor.
– Evolution of buildings / street or you just. / Decorations for your adventure, more NPCs.
– Bibliothèqueou you can read our discovery and as far!

° Festive Events for each entry of the races.

° Evolving dungeons: After finished the 4 paths, three would open.
Dungeons adding, but always with an exotic stuff. or … Ascention of now>.> But that remains the same stats.

° Areas with new content, and a story related. (Arena Net does well, I’m a fan!) And the narrative contained with 12 zones, you pay the addon!
Return to Cantha, Elona, ??and higher in the distant cimefroide!

° Add the armor Gw1 revenue is found dungeon exploration or jumping puzzle!

° New challenge group! As the race with Arah password of a luminous ball!

° But above all, the events evolve and become more immersive world. They go a Real Impact!

° Bonus comfort, I thought a NPC Asura / charr, feminized armor for Asura woman / charr.
Additions hairstyles for them, and change the current armor to make it a little different from the male.

The truth of the matter is this gme is a fail in all aspects of a 3 month old game.concidering it had kitten near 5 months of beta testing 7 years of design. And this is what they puke out at us great the grapics are great game play not so bad mechanics horriable boss fights to easy unless its bugged then the real gamers still find a way to beat it glitched events bad econ and took away server rewards such as orbs in wvw why ? why do you guys think this game is so good is it cuzz the only mmo played real hard core for the past 8 years has been world of warcraft well they all gota start somewhere but i clearly remmber wow adressing 60 day iussues within the first 2 months of game release where i can pint out one glitched event that has never been reported or fixed and just over look the one that sapwns out of archmages right after leading the pact there in curshed shore the even u can do stil land it will always fail only due to the fact spawn rates are so whack in this game u can even kill a group with out one respawning in a second of kill wtg anet way to use spawn rates out of swtor on there beta that they even fixed oh yea and way to ban people on forums for posting in the wrong topics about your glitchy games thanks robot .