Guild Wars 2

The GuildWars2 communist party [KP].

FirstBlood.7359:

The GuildWars2 communist party [KP].

Aside from the obvious trolling, wealth concentration is a recognized problem in any society that isn’t a banana republic. So having people discuss the downside of wealth concentration does not mean that we’re communist.

Edit: It means that we care about the game and are interested in the economy.

The countries with equally distributed wealth tend to be the poorest. In other words, everyone is equally poor.

Arbitrage (Let’s use the correct word!) is good for the economy. It makes the market efficient and brings it into the equilibrium. In GuildWars2 it has even more positive effects – some of them have already been mentioned – such as taking currency out of the system.
The profit potential on the Trading Post is limited. First of all, there are time constraints. Observing the market, storing items and placing orders consumes time. Learning how to flip the market is a time investment. Second, there are many other arbitrageurs with the same goal. Their pursue for profit dimishes your own profit. Third and most importantly, wealth doesn’t equal utility. Spending all your leisure on the Trading Post won’t make most players happy. The more money you have, the lower the incentive to make more.

The large numbers of players using the Trading Post makes it an efficient market. Most complaints are motivated by envy.

FirstBlood.7359:

The countries with equally distributed wealth tend to be the poorest. In other words, everyone is equally poor.

Except for the people in charge, who take the best stuff off the top and keep it for themselves. In a group as large as a country, there has never been a situation where every single person is given an equal share.

Dante.1508:

Ashabhi.1365:

@everyone who think flippers are stealing – What the kitten are they stealing?

They are stealing the fun out of the game by making the economy a shambles, each flip they do makes items more expensive to buy, which in turn makes people need more money to buy said items, which in turn makes people need to farm the game more..

Sadly most people will not stop buying things at high prices as they are naive and or stupid.
As i said ruins the game.

Lmao. Resellers help curb inflation, they don’t cause it.

Reselling and market manipulation are two completely different things. They do go hand in hand, but just reselling doesn’t manipulate the market. By manipulating the market, I mean large price increases/decreases caused for the sole reason of making a profit.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.

And I’ll say it again. Flipping is leeching off of the system and is IMHO unethical. ‘Farmers’, aka players who are playing the kittening game, get punished and restricted while those that play the TP and siphon money away from said players get rewarded and are unrestricted.

Maybe I’m missing something (and I’ve only taken one semester of intro to economics so please don’t hate too much (-: ) but it seems to me that their is a gap between the buyers and the sellers, and the only thing the flippers are doing is narrowing this gap and of course making money in the process.

Is this not actually increasing total satisfaction?

Sellers are getting more money for their goods then they would if they had sold to the previous buyers bid and the “buy now” buyers are getting a lower price than they would have had they bought from the previous “buy now” sellers.

As for the negative effect flippers have on inflation, with money essentially being printed every time someone kills a mob or completes a quest, isn’t this a good thing?

I don’t know maybe I’m looking at it too simplistically.

Couple thoughts: first, economics is definitely more of an art than a science. One of its base assumptions – people will act in their own interest – isn’t even true all the time. And, it’s generally impossible to study in a real-world sense because 1) there are about a billion variables, including a bunch you didn’t realize and weren’t measuring, and 2) it involves huge numbers of people and you can’t really do good experiments to prove results in that sort of setting. So all “real” economics is just theory. And there are many different theories and perspectives and most of them are just as impossible to prove as any other one. Sort of like another area of study…

Second: wow: spirited arguments. I think the sort of discussion that always pops up re: economics in this game just leads more support to my theory that economics is actually a religion and not a science.

Sorry, I no know bigum words. But I do best.

Not everyone agrees that Arbitrage is always helpful or good for the economy. For example. http://home.uchicago.edu/weyl/Second_Draft_Arbitrage.pdf (I know — those communists at the University of Chicago, but what can you do?)

Even if it is good for a general economy, this is not a real economy, it’s virtual economy. As other’s have pointed out the normal rules may not apply. For example, John talked about some unexpected effects increasing the precursor drop rate could have on the price.

The goal of the game isn’t the efficient flow of capital or allocation of risk, it’s the enjoyment of the gamers. Often one group has to limit their enjoyment for the good of the collective (look at the farming nerfs, the changes to dungeon running, world bosses, etc…)

Finally, no one has even address the fact that ,as many people point out, the trading post is a gold sink and does not generate any money on its own, every copper that you make in “arbitrage” is just moving a copper from either the seller or the buyer to your pocket.

thepyroguy.6957:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SynfulChaot.3169:

We are limited in profit we can make from all other sources in the game. Why should the TP be immune from the limitations ANet has been quite free with applying to all other money-making methods?

I’ll say it again: farming produces money from nothing, which causes inflation. Capital Gains (flipping) merely exchanges money and loses some in the trading process, which fights against inflation.

And I’ll say it again. Flipping is leeching off of the system and is IMHO unethical. ‘Farmers’, aka players who are playing the kittening game, get punished and restricted while those that play the TP and siphon money away from said players get rewarded and are unrestricted.

Maybe I’m missing something (and I’ve only taken one semester of intro to economics so please don’t hate too much (-: ) but it seems to me that their is a gap between the buyers and the sellers, and the only thing the flippers are doing is narrowing this gap and of course making money in the process.

Is this not actually increasing total satisfaction?

Sellers are getting more money for their goods then they would if they had sold to the previous buyers bid and the “buy now” buyers are getting a lower price than they would have had they bought from the previous “buy now” sellers.

As for the negative effect flippers have on inflation, with money essentially being printed every time someone kills a mob or completes a quest, isn’t this a good thing?

I don’t know maybe I’m looking at it too simplistically.

I think your leaving out a couple of players. Here’s how I think about it. You have the patient seller, the patient buyer, the impatient seller, and the impatient buyer.

Without the flippers the patient seller sells to the impatient buyer at a high price, the impatient seller sells to a patient buyer at a low price.

What the flipper does is narrow the gap between the two prices. The patient seller gets less, the patient buyer pays more, the impatient seller gets more, and the impatient buyer pays less.

However, this isn’t a 1 to 1 gain. Every copper the flipper pockets (and pays in TP fees) comes from someone else.

Or just remove the Trading Post, brings nothing to the game.

I don’t know why MMO developers are so obsessed with market economies.

Religious arguments aside, I can sympathize with the OP’s sentiment that it’s frustrating that the TP PvP minigame is actually the far and away most (potentially) profitable way to play GW2.

I don’t know how to fix that, or even change it. But it is frustrating.

arabeth.2361:

Religious arguments aside, I can sympathize with the OP’s sentiment that it’s frustrating that the TP PvP minigame is actually the far and away most (potentially) profitable way to play GW2.

I don’t know how to fix that, or even change it. But it is frustrating.

One way would be to limit the number of trades per day or per hour. Most profits are relatively small. The amount that flippers could earn would be much smaller. No more posting 10,000 of this or that.

mtpelion.4562:

If you want to make the most gold you will need to invest.

Sure you can make gold, but it’s not comparable. TP Flipping is the way to go, you can GRIND cof p1 but soon that will be stopped.

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

Obtaining a precursor for example is blind luck or having to pay TP Flippers over inflated prices for the privilege. Where’s the legendary in that? Nothing.

Inb4: Don’t like the system around TP Flipping, don’t get involved. Sure, but your missing the point. GW2 the game of spreadsheets? Please. TP Flippers have too much power over the market as it is.

You are however right about the game should be fun.

Price Gouging
Definition:
Pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available.

The price gouging of items by the hoarders who control the market is the complete definition of price gouging. Since players cannot obtain items through another retailer(TP) this adds to the conclusion.

TooBz.3065:

Sorry, I no know bigum words. But I do best.

Not everyone agrees that Arbitrage is always helpful or good for the economy. For example. http://home.uchicago.edu/weyl/Second_Draft_Arbitrage.pdf (I know — those communists at the University of Chicago, but what can you do?)

Even if it is good for a general economy, this is not a real economy, it’s virtual economy. As other’s have pointed out the normal rules may not apply. For example, John talked about some unexpected effects increasing the precursor drop rate could have on the price.

The goal of the game isn’t the efficient flow of capital or allocation of risk, it’s the enjoyment of the gamers. Often one group has to limit their enjoyment for the good of the collective (look at the farming nerfs, the changes to dungeon running, world bosses, etc…)

Finally, no one has even address the fact that ,as many people point out, the trading post is a gold sink and does not generate any money on its own, every copper that you make in “arbitrage” is just moving a copper from either the seller or the buyer to your pocket.

Flipping (capturing the spread), is not arbitrage. It is basically just extremely crude liquidity provision/market making.

Cross market and cross asset arbitrage is not possible here due to the fact we have one market place venue and there are no synthetic instruments. Statistical arbitrage may well be possible but I HIGHLY doubt there is anyone running VECM/OU models et al on baskets of items in order to churn a profit.

The arbitrage that might be going on will MF/market and crafting/market arbitrage. Neither of which are going to be making a massive impact on the economy and neither of which are “evil”.

Market making (flipping) provides liquidity and is certainly not a risk free enterprise (especially in a market with such inordinately large transaction costs and one in which you cannot operate in the HFT domain with LOB models). As such there is no reasons flippers should not profit from their enterprise.

Trying to buyout, buy and hold or otherwise “game” a market. Well whilst that is not exactly morally whiter than white, they take on an increased risk when tying to do so.

I would have to question just how may players are actually capable of gaming the market to such an extent as to have an impact upon the general gameplay of other users. Without having any information (which we will not get), then it is impossible to make claims from one side or the other.

I really cannot see a reason to try and artifically limit trading activity to set a profit cap and I honestly think any attempt to do so would probably either a – not work or b – have an adverse impact.

TooBz.3065:

arabeth.2361:

Religious arguments aside, I can sympathize with the OP’s sentiment that it’s frustrating that the TP PvP minigame is actually the far and away most (potentially) profitable way to play GW2.

I don’t know how to fix that, or even change it. But it is frustrating.

One way would be to limit the number of trades per day or per hour. Most profits are relatively small. The amount that flippers could earn would be much smaller. No more posting 10,000 of this or that.

Then the TP becomes flooded (even more than it is now) with items people want to get rid of and can’t sell because everyone else is trying to get rid of them too.

The only reason for people to invest in the market is big ticket items like precursors and the only reason to sell them is to set the prices much much higher to make maximum profit from each sale, since you can only do a handful of trades per day.

Players who play for long periods of time are punished because they cannot put up all the useless loot they gather during the day and have to either fill up their bank with stuff they don’t want or vendor it for pennies.

Less sales happening each day, while people continue to pull items and coin out of thin air by playing the game accelerates inflation. Piles of things no one wants accumulate while people cannot sell them because of TP limits. The things they DO want rocket up in price because their sale is controlled by market investors who feel the need to make a maximum profit from each sale.

There’s a reason why the TP is run by a professional. If I have a medical problem, I’d rather talk to a doctor than someone who thinks he knows a little about medicine. In the same spirit, I trust the opinions of an experienced professional over someone who doesn’t like the idea of people making money on the TP.

Stormcrow.7513:

Price Gouging
Definition:
Pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available.

The price gouging of items by the hoarders who control the market is the complete definition of price gouging. Since players cannot obtain items through another retailer(TP) this adds to the conclusion.

Your definition is wrong as when there is no alternative retailer, where is the so called “market” price?

There is no such thing as gouging.
Go read your economic 101 and see supply and demand chapter.

SoPP.7034:

mtpelion.4562:

If you want to make the most gold you will need to invest.

Sure you can make gold, but it’s not comparable. TP Flipping is the way to go, you can GRIND cof p1 but soon that will be stopped.

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

Obtaining a precursor for example is blind luck or having to pay TP Flippers over inflated prices for the privilege. Where’s the legendary in that? Nothing.

Inb4: Don’t like the system around TP Flipping, don’t get involved. Sure, but your missing the point. GW2 the game of spreadsheets? Please. TP Flippers have too much power over the market as it is.

You are however right about the game should be fun.

Time is not an investment, it is an expense. If you want to maximize your gold per hour you have to make your gold do the work which means buying and selling on the market. That is the way it is in real life and that is the way it is in GW2. Spending time on less profitable ventures like WvW, PvP, or PvE is what people who enjoy WvW, PvP, or PvE do. People who enjoy making money spend their time playing the market.

There needs to be established market values for everything in the game.
Not dictated by the players who have free reign to price gouge the playerbase.
Price gouging runs rampant with high end items to the point of ridiculousness and makes the rich only richer.

Stormcrow.7513:

There needs to be established market values for everything in the game.
Not dictated by the players who have free reign to price gouge the playerbase.
Price gouging runs rampant with high end items to the point of ridiculousness and makes the rich only richer.

Now we get to the crux of your point, you are jelly.

mtpelion.4562:

SoPP.7034:

mtpelion.4562:

If you want to make the most gold you will need to invest.

Sure you can make gold, but it’s not comparable. TP Flipping is the way to go, you can GRIND cof p1 but soon that will be stopped.

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

Obtaining a precursor for example is blind luck or having to pay TP Flippers over inflated prices for the privilege. Where’s the legendary in that? Nothing.

Inb4: Don’t like the system around TP Flipping, don’t get involved. Sure, but your missing the point. GW2 the game of spreadsheets? Please. TP Flippers have too much power over the market as it is.

You are however right about the game should be fun.

Time is not an investment, it is an expense. If you want to maximize your gold per hour you have to make your gold do the work which means buying and selling on the market. That is the way it is in real life and that is the way it is in GW2. Spending time on less profitable ventures like WvW, PvP, or PvE is what people who enjoy WvW, PvP, or PvE do. People who enjoy making money spend their time playing the market.

If I was to sell an item that is only available from me in real life for a %200 markup, I would be charged under federal law for price gouging. It is easy to take the real life scenarios that are positive towards your point but disregard the ones that are unethical and wrong.

mtpelion.4562:

Stormcrow.7513:

There needs to be established market values for everything in the game.
Not dictated by the players who have free reign to price gouge the playerbase.
Price gouging runs rampant with high end items to the point of ridiculousness and makes the rich only richer.

Now we get to the crux of your point, you are jelly.

I am not Jelly. I have money. I have power traded. I just think that it is wrong. Read the definition I posted about price gouging.

mtpelion.4562:

Time is not an investment, it is an expense.

And skill in actually playing the game? Or progression even, meaningful steps to achievement in PLAYING the actual game. You want real life, you should go back to it. This is a game and end game content shouldn’t be limited to those who enjoy flicking through spreadsheets.

I see a lot of people are using “ethics” as way to justify TP trading as unethical. Here, I think it is ethical and create value. Your ethical value and mine are different. Don’t impose your ethical value, when it is often mixed up with jealousy.

Stormcrow.7513:

mtpelion.4562:

SoPP.7034:

mtpelion.4562:

If you want to make the most gold you will need to invest.

Sure you can make gold, but it’s not comparable. TP Flipping is the way to go, you can GRIND cof p1 but soon that will be stopped.

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

Obtaining a precursor for example is blind luck or having to pay TP Flippers over inflated prices for the privilege. Where’s the legendary in that? Nothing.

Inb4: Don’t like the system around TP Flipping, don’t get involved. Sure, but your missing the point. GW2 the game of spreadsheets? Please. TP Flippers have too much power over the market as it is.

You are however right about the game should be fun.

Time is not an investment, it is an expense. If you want to maximize your gold per hour you have to make your gold do the work which means buying and selling on the market. That is the way it is in real life and that is the way it is in GW2. Spending time on less profitable ventures like WvW, PvP, or PvE is what people who enjoy WvW, PvP, or PvE do. People who enjoy making money spend their time playing the market.

If I was to sell an item that is only available from me in real life for a %200 markup, I would be charged under federal law for price gouging. It is easy to take the real life scenarios that are positive towards your point but disregard the ones that are unethical and wrong.

First, the concept of “price gouging” is not uniform. It is not illegal everywhere and it is defined differently everywhere that it is illegal.

Second, since you are the sole provider of said product, you cannot be a price gouger because there are no other sources of said product available to set the market value. Whatever you set your price to be is the market value.

Third, all resources in GW2 are infinite, and the TP is gamewide. This means price gouging is completely impossible in game.

The greater the gap between the in-game poor and rich, the more money ANet will make from gems-to-gold transactions.

Ergo, nothing will be done. Move along.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

The greater the gap between the in-game poor and rich, the more money ANet will make from gems-to-gold transactions.

Ergo, nothing will be done. Move along.

Remember, we all started equal. Through luck, skill and time the top crust emerges. Of course, sometimes it is pure dumb luck but hey in the real world it is the same thing.

Afya.5842:

Stormcrow.7513:

Price Gouging
Definition:
Pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available.

The price gouging of items by the hoarders who control the market is the complete definition of price gouging. Since players cannot obtain items through another retailer(TP) this adds to the conclusion.

Your definition is wrong as when there is no alternative retailer, where is the so called “market” price?

There is no such thing as gouging.
Go read your economic 101 and see supply and demand chapter.

Market price is set by those who have control or monopoly over the item. There are 0 alternative retailers. Thus the market is cornered. Supply is limited and demand is high but there is massive gouging on the TP, you cannot deny that.
I have played the TP and made money but it is unethical to corner a market and gouge.
Has this become SpreadSheetWars2 a game of monopolization or GW2 a fantasy game of skill? I am starting to think the sales of MS Office with Excel will go up 2%, would you recommend I buy MS stocks?

SoPP.7034:

mtpelion.4562:

Time is not an investment, it is an expense.

And skill in actually playing the game? Or progression even, meaningful steps to achievement in PLAYING the actual game. You want real life, you should go back to it. This is a game and end game content shouldn’t be limited to those who enjoy flicking through spreadsheets.

It isn’t limited to people flicking through spreadsheets though is it.

Those people who like spvp or wvw, well their endgame is tournaments and server ranking. Whilst I woudn’t like to speak for others, I highly doubt the likes of Team Paradigm really give much of a kitten about people making more money than them playing the TP…

Are people who enjoy high level fractals or who just like socialising with their guild really spending their time thinking about uninstalling because some dude is making more money than then flipping in bulk?

Rewards/loot for general gaming does need changing/tweaking, and hopefully the update on the 6th will go towards doing that. But expecting a cap to be placed on flipping, or thinking that flipping is the only “endgame” just seems somewhat odd to me.

Hell Avenger.7021:

SupahSpankeh.8452:

The greater the gap between the in-game poor and rich, the more money ANet will make from gems-to-gold transactions.

Ergo, nothing will be done. Move along.

Remember, we all started equal. Through luck, skill and time the top crust emerges. Of course, sometimes it is pure dumb luck but hey in the real world it is the same thing.

Don’t forget unpunished exploits.

SoPP.7034:

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

That is indeed the crux of the issue here. What takes the most skill typically yields the smallest rewards. Just look at WvWvW for a good example of this. If you go around skirmishing and taking key points with a small group you’re really just hurting yourself since mindlessly zerging around in a massive group will net you far more. But I digress as that’s a topic for another thread.

Players shouldn’t be encouraged to sit in Lion’s Arch and price gouge in order to make a profit. Players should be encouraged to on grand adventures and explore the world. This needs fixing.

I need 200g to buy _________.

My options :

1. Farm cof p1 until I make 200g
2. Do world bosses for 3-4 months
3.Farm (lol) and maybe make 1-2g/ hour
4. Take what little gold I have and start flipping on the TP
5. Make a scantily clad female character and charge people gold to ERP with me

I’ve done my fair share of farming in this game and Im done. I’ll start farming when Anet fixes the droprates. 2 hours of frostgorge and you MAYBE get 1 corrupted lodestone? Along with 6-7 vicious claws? Thats called wasting your time. Im also not going to play the game for 3-4 months just so i can afford a few nice skins for my character.

The problem with the TP power trading or whatever you want to call it, is that you have people making money with money. As in real life this causes inflation.

Game economies suffer from the same thing, but as a criticism I would like to add that GW2 is particularly vulnerable to this kitten much of the game is linked to gold. This is of course to also accomodate the gem exchange, but it is a weakness in the game. Not to say that other games do not suffer from it, but honestly GW1 had a lot less problems with it, some exploits aside.

It’s not easy though because any money system will have this problem. As soon as you bring in a tradeable currency, the money game begins.

In the end this game doesn’t really reward people for completing their stories. You can buy an exotic piece on the TP for a gold or so, but you get yellows as reward for completing the story. Bottom line is that this game rewards farming gold more than anything else. In essence when you are level 80, yellow gear is useful only for extracting materials from it. That’s an odd purpose for a gear tier.

Also GW2 doesn’t have that much BoP gear, almost everything of any use is tradeable.

So, my conclusion is that the reward system is flawed. It rewards the wrong things. Farming gold or grinding for gold is what is rewarded most. Beating content, be it story line, higher difficulty mobs (vets, champs, bosses), achievements etc do have rewards but they don’t compare and it usually involves gold and crappy items (that yo can sell for gold). Endgame is about collecting gold and laurels pretty much. For laurels you need to log in once a day and do your daily and for the rest it is simply farming gold. Why? Because it’s easier to get gold than it is to get what’s needed otherwise to get the item you want.

I submit that that’s the main reason why Guild Wars 2 is actually Gold Wars: a flawed reward system that encourages people to focus on making gold.

Fungalfoot.7213:

SoPP.7034:

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

That is indeed the crux of the issue here. What takes the most skill typically yields the smallest rewards. Just look at WvWvW for a good example of this. If you go around skirmishing and taking key points with a small group you’re really just hurting yourself since mindlessly zerging around in a massive group will net you far more. But I digress as that’s the topic of another thread.

Players shouldn’t be encouraged to sit in Lion’s Arch and price gouge in order to make a profit. Players should be encouraged to on grand adventures and explore the world. This needs fixing.

This post just explained the “spirit” of the thread completely.

Fungalfoot.7213:

SoPP.7034:

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

That is indeed the crux of the issue here. What takes the most skill typically yields the smallest rewards. Just look at WvWvW for a good example of this. If you go around skirmishing and taking key points with a small group you’re really just hurting yourself since mindlessly zerging around in a massive group will net you far more. But I digress as that’s a topic for another thread.

Players shouldn’t be encouraged to sit in Lion’s Arch and price gouge in order to make a profit. Players should be encouraged to on grand adventures and explore the world. This needs fixing.

Your definition of price gouging is …. LOl… That is price gouging???

Anyway, what if someone like to play the market and economy. Why are you forcing them to go out if they don’t want to? Sounds like you want to impose your way of life on others. I am sorry COF got nerfed, get real.

Gehenna.3625:

The problem with the TP power trading or whatever you want to call it, is that you have people making money with money. As in real life this causes inflation.

Game economies suffer from the same thing, but as a criticism I would like to add that GW2 is particularly vulnerable to this kitten much of the game is linked to gold. This is of course to also accomodate the gem exchange, but it is a weakness in the game. Not to say that other games do not suffer from it, but honestly GW1 had a lot less problems with it, some exploits aside.

It’s not easy though because any money system will have this problem. As soon as you bring in a tradeable currency, the money game begins.

In the end this game doesn’t really reward people for completing their stories. You can buy an exotic piece on the TP for a gold or so, but you get yellows as reward for completing the story. Bottom line is that this game rewards farming gold more than anything else. In essence when you are level 80, yellow gear is useful only for extracting materials from it. That’s an odd purpose for a gear tier.

Also GW2 doesn’t have that much BoP gear, almost everything of any use is tradeable.

So, my conclusion is that the reward system is flawed. It rewards the wrong things. Farming gold or grinding for gold is what is rewarded most. Beating content, be it story line, higher difficulty mobs (vets, champs, bosses), achievements etc do have rewards but they don’t compare and it usually involves gold and crappy items (that yo can sell for gold). Endgame is about collecting gold and laurels pretty much. For laurels you need to log in once a day and do your daily and for the rest it is simply farming gold. Why? Because it’s easier to get gold than it is to get what’s needed otherwise to get the item you want.

I submit that that’s the main reason why Guild Wars 2 is actually Gold Wars: a flawed reward system that encourages people to focus on making gold.

In the real world, trading doesn’t cause inflation. What are you talking about? Printing money cause inflation, so does money multiplier effect.

For GW2, the biggest money printing machine was COF p1, and there is no money multiplier effect in GW2 due to no lending.

The fact that TP charge 15% on sell, it is destroying Gold which has a deflationary effect.

Stormcrow.7513:

Afya.5842:

Stormcrow.7513:

Price Gouging
Definition:
Pricing above the market price when no alternative retailer is available.

The price gouging of items by the hoarders who control the market is the complete definition of price gouging. Since players cannot obtain items through another retailer(TP) this adds to the conclusion.

Your definition is wrong as when there is no alternative retailer, where is the so called “market” price?

There is no such thing as gouging.
Go read your economic 101 and see supply and demand chapter.

Market price is set by those who have control or monopoly over the item. There are 0 alternative retailers. Thus the market is cornered. Supply is limited and demand is high but there is massive gouging on the TP, you cannot deny that.
I have played the TP and made money but it is unethical to corner a market and gouge.
Has this become SpreadSheetWars2 a game of monopolization or GW2 a fantasy game of skill? I am starting to think the sales of MS Office with Excel will go up 2%, would you recommend I buy MS stocks?

Ok, what you described is monopoly or as you said cornering, but that’s not “gouging”. And that is NOT flipping.

M$ stock probably isn’t a bad idea because of the coming xbox one.

Hell Avenger.7021:

In the real world, trading doesn’t cause inflation.

Especially when trading actually deletes money from the system as the BLTP does.

If you like TP flipping then that is great! I have absolutely no issues with people that do. I was a power trader in GW1 and made a ton of ecto/armbraces from it. The issue is that I wasn’t the only source of the item. My Req 9 Crystalline could be purchased through online auctions and a myriad of other players which helped dictate supply and demand. In GW2 everything is centralized and supply and demand is dictated through a monopolisation. It would have been hard for a player to buy every Req 9 Crystalline in GW1 but in GW2 it is a few clicks of the mouse.

Fenrir.3609:

Rewards/loot for general gaming does need changing/tweaking.

I don’t agree with the OP so much as agree with this. The example I use is legendary, where TP Flippers have admitted to having multiple legendary weapons and are deciding if they can be bothered starting their next one, and yet currently skillful players, who actually play the game may be nowhere near such things.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Players shouldn’t be encouraged to sit in Lion’s Arch and price gouge in order to make a profit. Players should be encouraged to on grand adventures and explore the world. This needs fixing.

Which is more to my point, but as has been said, is heading off topic.

Monopolization leads to price gouging and is part of the definition.

TooBz.3065:

FirstBlood.7359:

The GuildWars2 communist party [KP].

Aside from the obvious trolling, wealth concentration is a recognized problem in any society that isn’t a banana republic. So having people discuss the downside of wealth concentration does not mean that we’re communist.

Edit: It means that we care about the game and are interested in the economy.

“recognized” as that by leftist theorists, to be precise.

Hell Avenger.7021:

Your definition of price gouging is …. LOl… That is price gouging???

Anyway, what if someone like to play the market and economy. Why are you forcing them to go out if they don’t want to? Sounds like you want to impose your way of life on others. I am sorry COF got nerfed, get real.

Because you are hurting the market and subsequently other players through your selfish actions? By raising prices you are increasing the grind for buyers and making their gameplay experience less enjoyable overall.

Eventually this will spiral completely out of control as more and more people are forced into it. The shortsighted greed of the community will prove disastrous in the long run. Let’s look for a solution before it gets worse, shall we?

We clearly need a central planner ( John Smith! ) to set “fair community prices”.

Stormcrow.7513:

If you like TP flipping then that is great! I have absolutely no issues with people that do. I was a power trader in GW1 and made a ton of ecto/armbraces from it. The issue is that I wasn’t the only source of the item. My Req 9 Crystalline could be purchased through online auctions and a myriad of other players which helped dictate supply and demand. In GW2 everything is centralized and supply and demand is dictated through a monopolisation. It would have been hard for a player to buy every Req 9 Crystalline in GW1 but in GW2 it is a few clicks of the mouse.

You cannot monopolize an infinite resource that everyone has unlimited unrestricted access to.

Buying all of the stock out does not give you a monopoly, it gives you more of that item in your inventory. Other players are generating more of them as we speak meaning you have cornered nothing.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Your definition of price gouging is …. LOl… That is price gouging???

Anyway, what if someone like to play the market and economy. Why are you forcing them to go out if they don’t want to? Sounds like you want to impose your way of life on others. I am sorry COF got nerfed, get real.

Because you are hurting the market and subsequently other players through your selfish actions? By raising prices you are increasing the grind for buyers and making their gameplay experience less enjoyable overall.

Eventually this will spiral completely out of control as more and more people are forced into it. The shortsighted greed of the community will prove disastrous in the long run. Let’s look for a solution before it gets worse, shall we?

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

Hell Avenger.7021:

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

Please do explain to me how you are lowering prices by buying up all the cheap goods from the trading post and marking them up.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Your definition of price gouging is …. LOl… That is price gouging???

Anyway, what if someone like to play the market and economy. Why are you forcing them to go out if they don’t want to? Sounds like you want to impose your way of life on others. I am sorry COF got nerfed, get real.

Because you are hurting the market and subsequently other players through your selfish actions? By raising prices you are increasing the grind for buyers and making their gameplay experience less enjoyable overall.

Eventually this will spiral completely out of control as more and more people are forced into it. The shortsighted greed of the community will prove disastrous in the long run. Let’s look for a solution before it gets worse, shall we?

You cannot raise prices. You can adjust your prices upwards to reflect an increase in buying power.

If you arbitrarily raise your prices then no one can afford what you are selling. Now you are losing money (if you have overhead costs or have to pay to relist at a lower price).

Flippers CANNOT harm the economy. They can only harm themselves by being too selfish.

Fenrir.3609:

Rewards/loot for general gaming does need changing/tweaking, and hopefully the update on the 6th will go towards doing that. But expecting a cap to be placed on flipping, or thinking that flipping is the only “endgame” just seems somewhat odd to me.

While my own feelings are split, something should be done to pull the TP profit mongering down to match other areas of the game.

Anet has pretty much an anti-farm stance. While they can be slow to update things, they have continuously been making changes to locations where players are farming. Dungeon update, recent Arah farm spot change, etc..

To leave an area of the game completely uncapped, unregulated, etc. would not be good for the overall game. In short, it tells players, that in order to make gold, play the TP.

You and many others simply seem to be caught up in the suggestions for a fix, rather than acknowledging that a fix is needed. Whether it comes in the form of additional/increased fees, limits, or even a time limit on postings is irrelevant.

Pushing or pulling (ie market manipulation) can temporarily change a limited part of the market and increase or decrease the price of that part of the market drastically. HOWEVER, the market will soon return to a ‘normal’, balanced price as soon as the reseller is done.

Doing these things is massively capital dependent, which makes it even more difficult to do, or even try to do. Also, you’ll have to battle with other merchants who see what you’re doing and try to undercut you or go against you in your efforts.