Guild Wars 2

Aioros.4862:

I’m not a good pvp player, never was. But even so, i’m ok by losing because i sucked compared to the other guy, but over a stat difference, no thanks, been there, done that (in Wow), this is not the game for me anymore (and even WoW made an effort to level the pvp playing field, and i believe the grind there, for pvp gear, is child’s play compared to this).

I feel exactly the same!

Aioros.4862:

Xenon.4537:

fellyn.5083:

I’m confused how ascended gear has ruined the game for you.

Outside of extreme high level fractals there isn’t a single reason for why you’d need to have it.

This.

If ascended would not enter wvw that statement would be true, but it does.

Are we playing the same wvw? Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been on my exotic geared necro, seen some ascended-weapon-wielding-fully-upgraded-glowing-fractal-capacitor dude coming at me, and rofl stomped him into the floor with semi-clever use of my classes basic abilities… It’s not necessarily how much better your gear is, but how you use it.

Aioros.4862:

If i take as a sample everyone i knew who wanted ascended, they failed miserably, because every single one of those people left the game long ago.

I bet you know a HUGE percentage of the 3,000,000+ box owners.

Huge.

Staggering, even.

Like, oh, maybe a 50,000th of the players the people who make the decisions track.

Its a BUSINESS. A hundred-million dollar a year enterprise. These decisions do not get picked out of a &)((#@^ hat.

Is it the right decision for every player? Of course not. But they didn’t decide to try it just because everything was peachy.

Calm down, i started the phrase with “If i take as a sample” for a reason.

thaooo.5320:

Ascended gear ruins WvW balance and you cannot argue against that, because you’re wrong.

ANet caved in to people who were never going to play GW2 for a long time, and now no longer play.

Yes you can argue against it. Because it doesn’t ruin wvw balance any more than food or uplevels do. In fact you can make a very strong armor those last two things ruin the balance of wvw far more than ascended armor do.

But yeah, a game mode designed around random encounters with random number of people on your side vs random number people on their side (and the third side) vs random gear assortments and random skill levels needs to be balanced.

I can give you a sample size that’s nearly a statistical universe. 600 people. We came to GW2 together. Once ascended hit, nearly 400 left. Broken promises are broken promises.

Of the remaining, exactly 2 of us still play, and counting myself as an active player is a bit of a stretch.

I’d imagine I’m not the only one experiencing this.

Nike.2631:

If that were true, then why do you think the people who watch the whole of the player base every single second suddenly scrambled to implement what is indeed a massive gear grind?

Because they saw all the VP content locusts leaving and came up with Ascended as a panicked knee-jerk reaction, under the foolish belief that they’d be able to keep all of them playing, even though most of those players are -still- gone.

B) They saw a substantial number of players gear up to full exotic within weeks of launch… and then those players never logged in again.

And those people were never going to log in again, anyway, because this wasn’t the game for them. They wanted another WoW clone, which GW2, according to early design at least, was never going to be.

NOBODY spends as much time and effort designing a system like this as was expended without a clear and present NEED.

I beg to differ. But I doubt you or I are going to see eye to eye on this. I will never stop believing that Ascended has done more damage than good.

Gene Archer.8560:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Not entirely true. We wanted difficult to get gear, but we wanted it to be cosmetic only. Difficulty is part of the appeal for hunting super rare skins. However, because it’s cosmetic is totally optional.

Agreed. I should have been clearer. We didn’t need difficult to get stats. Unfortunately, even in this game, I tend to only see armor as stats and not cosmetics because, frankly…there aren’t a lot of cosmetics =/

Also, not entirely true, but again goes back to the cosmetic thing. Its an optional thing, that a person chooses to do because they want that particular skin, and that by no means should be removed or downplayed. .

My bad again. Once again, referring to stats.

Ascended sort of kicks this in the teeth, since many will feel it is a necessity for any number of reasons.

Indeedilydoo

Yeah, we really didn’t need higher stats. Bigger numbers <> more intelligent game sadly, but too many just don’t ‘get it.’

Still, I look at pretty much everything (sans ascended) from a cosmetic perspective, since the majority of it is relatively simple to come by. I think originally the dungeon sets were the closest thing to ‘cosmetic’ as we got, but considering armor has default stats its hard to approach it that way. Yeah yeah, someone’s going to point out transmog capabilities, but sometimes that really feels like a waste. Honestly, they should have done armor similar to GW1, where you could apply your insignia of choice, and swap at will. We had a lot more flexibility with the GW1 system.

yayuuu.9420:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

If you want to know my opinion about ascended – I have left the game a month after release. I was able to get lvl 80 and full exotic armor in less than one month, then I did almost all of the dungeons and for another week I had no motication to do anything in the game. Now I came back partially with introduction of ascended weapon crafting and now I’m playing GW2 as my main MMORPG since they added asdended armor craft. Ascended brought me back to the game. I fully enjoy progression, it gives me a reason to play, to get my equipment maxed.

You have mentioned about games without vertical progression, like LOL, DOTA, TF2 – none of them is a MMORPG. It’s a completly different game, so comparing them to GW2 is not good.

On the other hand, GW1 was more like a singleplayer game for me. I have finished campaigns and left the game for few months, then I turned it on again, created a new character, finished campaigns and left it again, for good. There was no reason for me to do anything else in the game than story. It was a solid game, but I would compare it to games like Heretic 2, Drakan or Tomb Raider, just complete missions and game over.

saddest story ever.

Indeed, if ascended was pve only or scaled down to exotic in WvW he could have his carrot and not ruin the game for others.

Not to mention the implementation of exotic with the upgrade slots is much more flexible and polished than how ascended was made.

Reverence.6915:

Gene Archer.8560:

Reverence.6915:

especially when it’s absolutely unnecessary.

Great, so since Ascended is so unnecessary, we can get rid of it.

Problem solved.

Ascended isn’t necessary to complete content. It’s there for people who are after progression.

Why hate on that?

Well then, it’s there for progression for the people that want it. What kind of progression are we talking about? I’ll answer for you: vertical. What is vertical progression? It is scaling character progression vertically in terms of power. That is, as time progresses the power level of the game will increase. That’s simply VP at it’s simplest. Not my opinion by the way, I claim no credit for my understanding of VP. Everything I know about it I learned.

So if the power of the game increases continually over time, does that make the treadmill optional for those who don’t wish to pursue it? Hardly. And, again, not my opinion. I simply know what VP is and how it functions in games. You can know it too and here’s a couple videos to get you started:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

Gene Archer.8560:

Because they saw all the VP content locusts leaving and came up with Ascended as a panicked knee-jerk reaction, under the foolish belief that they’d be able to keep all of them playing, even though most of those players are -still- gone.

So in your model of MMO gamer behavior there’s an alarm clock that goes off repeating: “Good morning, its day 63 of the game and all the locusts are gone now!”?

Odds are good they saw a pattern – “N% of players will full Exotic gear stop logging in with 10 days. ALL players are going to reach that point, and we’ll continue to lose N% just as fast as they finish gearing up. Fortunately, only 15% of the total have reached that point already, so we still have time to take action to try reduce N as it’s applied to the other 85%…”

Ascended gear was never about recovering those who were lost (the strategies for that are quite different…). It’s about staunching the flow of those yet to reach character sheet-wide BiS. In this case by making BiS take weeks per slot instead of 2-3 hours.

I beg to differ. But I doubt you or I are going to see eye to eye on this. I will never stop believing that Ascended has done more damage than good.

I don’t disagree it’s caused damage. I just think the imaginary realm where Ascended never happened looked a lot darker (and emptier) to the people with more of the facts than you’re making it out to be. If they were wildly dissatisfied with the outcome, its wouldn’t be hard at all to make modest tweaks to the process to make it less grindy. This was a large part of the vertical progression CDI discussions, and while I don’t think we’ll see the massive revisions some players asked for, I think we will see more attention paid to not kicking people with alts in the junk quite so hard as they do now.

hellsmachine.4085:

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

- Well, would you play slot machine if there was no money involved? This is elaborate version of slot machine. Kill monster -> monster drops random loot -> player becomes motivated. Take away all loot drops, quests and items and you’ll soon realize killing endlessly respawning monsters is about as exciting as watching the paint dry.

There has to be the next thing. You won’t play the game anymore if there isn’t one. Call it new achivements, gear, character progression, loot, bragging rights, whatever. If you’re looking for strategy and intellectual challenge, this game is not for it.

Raine.1394:

Reverence.6915:

Gene Archer.8560:

Reverence.6915:

especially when it’s absolutely unnecessary.

Great, so since Ascended is so unnecessary, we can get rid of it.

Problem solved.

Ascended isn’t necessary to complete content. It’s there for people who are after progression.

Why hate on that?

Well then, it’s there for progression for the people that want it. What kind of progression are we talking about? I’ll answer for you: vertical. What is vertical progression? It is scaling character progression vertically in terms of power. That is, as time progresses the power level of the game will increase. That’s simply VP at it’s simplest. Not my opinion by the way, I claim no credit for my understanding of VP. Everything I know about it I learned.

So if the power of the game increases continually over time, does that make the treadmill optional for those who don’t wish to pursue it? Hardly. And, again, not my opinion. I simply know what VP is and how it functions in games. You can know it too and here’s a couple videos to get you started:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

You might have a point but currently and for the foreseeable future there is absolutely no reason why you need ascended armor other than you want it or for high level fractals.

Raine.1394:

Reverence.6915:

Gene Archer.8560:

Reverence.6915:

especially when it’s absolutely unnecessary.

Great, so since Ascended is so unnecessary, we can get rid of it.

Problem solved.

Ascended isn’t necessary to complete content. It’s there for people who are after progression.

Why hate on that?

Well then, it’s there for progression for the people that want it. What kind of progression are we talking about? I’ll answer for you: vertical. What is vertical progression? It is scaling character progression vertically in terms of power. That is, as time progresses the power level of the game will increase. That’s simply VP at it’s simplest. Not my opinion by the way, I claim no credit for my understanding of VP. Everything I know about it I learned.

So if the power of the game increases continually over time, does that make the treadmill optional for those who don’t wish to pursue it? Hardly. And, again, not my opinion. I simply know what VP is and how it functions in games. You can know it too and here’s a couple videos to get you started:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

I guess you can call it vertical progression. The difference is small enough that I consider it horizontal progression. Depends on your point of view. If you must have that BiS item, then sure, it’s VP. It’s just not worth the time it takes to craft for that miniscule stat increase.

Anyway, Legendary armor is going to be released in the future. Legendaries are locked to BiS, so it’s quite possible we may see 1 or 2 more tiers after ascended after Legendary armor is released.

i’ve found more interesting to craft 2 legendaries in 2 months than crafting my 3 pieces of ascended armor in the same amount of time. i can easily set a goal by myself, i don’t need someone that tells me what to do and when. that’s what happened with ascended armor, someone set a threshold for me, something i had to do against my will, at least to enjoy fractals from level 46. Those who claims that was hard to get cap armor and runes in gw1 didn’t really played it imo. Grinding eotn and nightfall titles was a mere challenge for “cap fans”, i never maxed out anything and i enjoyed all the contents of the game, included speedclears. The philosophy of gw1 was a lot different that gw2, claiming that gw1 titles and gw2 ascended are the same thing, is a bit reductive and shallow. So, no, i don’t like ascended armor and it wasn’t needed to enjoy the game, there are so manych things to do that it’s impossible to get bored. It’s normal to get bored if you don’t have a goal in your life, waiting for someone else to decide what is your goal too. On the other hand, i understand that ppl loves to follow a carrot on the stick or let someone decide what is needed to have fun. When i’ll have the feeling that gw is going to become a p2w/grindfeast/gear treadmill, i will simply move to another game, because in the end, who decides it’s me

Nike.2631:

I just think the imaginary realm where Ascended never happened looked a lot darker (and emptier) to the people with more of the facts than you’re making it out to be.

I don’t see that same world for one simple reason: The world where ascended exists is already dark and empty. All my friends sans 1 are gone, and to make matters worse, I’m on Devonas Rest. I hope our server’s population issues aren’t lost on you.

Now, mind you, I’m not trying to say that all of that is the fault of Ascended. All I’m trying to say is that this dark and empty world you speak of that you feel would exist without Ascended -still- exists with Ascended. Ascended hasn’t solved anything, in other words.

If they were wildly dissatisfied with the outcome, its wouldn’t be hard at all to make modest tweaks to the process to make it less grindy. This was a large part of the vertical progression CDI discussions,

And I made my feelings known during that CDI. I made sure to comment on it.

But the CDI and ANet actually doing anything are two separate things. It’s one thing to listen. It’s another to act. A lot of games are coming up on the horizon, ANet is going to find themselves with a lot of competition. They need to start turning those CDIs into reality.

I think we will see more attention paid to not kicking people with alts in the junk quite so hard as they do now.

Nothing will actually be fixed unless they change how Ascended is obtained by adding other methods, or getting rid of it, or changing it to be exotic level with stat change, or something. It doesn’t matter how much attention you pay to the wound, now, if you still leave the dagger in. The damage is still already done and no healing can occur while the problem itself is still stuck in the wound.

I’ve absolutely nothing against Vertical Progression..

They add new things to do for your Character to progress in something, that isn’t related to new Skills, new Traits or new Weapon Types ect.
Its something that can be added to keep the players busy and to give them something new to achieve, when they basically have nothing else new to do right now.

However, theres a difference in vertical progression – you can implement it in a good way and in a bad way…
It becomes a bad way, when the implemented content turns into a helish grind, that just got implemented only to slow down the player progression by added unneccessary time gating mechanics and the unability to just buy you the new content ingame with the ingame currencies, if you simply dislike crafting and you have no luck in receiving the new content in for of chest rewards or world boss loot, that has so low drop rates, that you may think you play an asia Grinder with the stereotypical 0,01% droprate chances, that are just only very annoying.

World Bosses should drop guaranteed Reward Tokens simply that should allo players to get what they want from the world bosse’s uniqe reward table from a vendor npc, because this reduces the senseless grind and RNG to 0 and replaces it with a clear and easy understandable progression system, that players can follow, just like how Dungeon Tokens work.

I see due to this also no problems with more vertical progression in the future, but not only item driven vertical progression, but also class feature based vertical progression as like level cap based vertical progression that improves the build versatility for all of us by giving us more Trait Points to put into our Class Builds.
There wouldn’t even be a problem ith it, if ANet just lets us some day max out all Trait Lines, because even then we can’t have everything, we still need to specialize our individual class builds in regard of which Traits we choose to use with our Characters and so more individual Traits we could choose to use, so more unique and individual can become our Class Builds, while receivign at the same tiem more vertical character progression.

New Gears with higher Level Requirements can get easily introduced as new Dungeon Rewards, new personal Story Rewards in the future, new Meta Achievement rewards in the future, new Fractal Rewards once they raise the Fractal Levels above 50, or simply through refining Equipment to higher Level Versions throrugh Crafting/Mystic Forge

I’m very sure, that we will see more vertical progressionin the future.. the game is just only 1 1/2 years old nearly, – you don’t have to forget this.
I’m sure, once GW2 is like 5+ years old, that we will have seen by then more vertical progression in GW2 to keep the Hardcore Players stay interested in playing the game further

I welcome for now the changes ANet is doing with Pvp, trying to integrate it more into the rest of the game.
I’m very sure, this will add also new ways of obtaining easily in future new max equipment, because PvP in GW2 will always be designed to provide players there instant max characters with max equipment…

vertical progression will never have any negative effects in Pvp, because of this fact, that you are there always instant maximum with full access to maximum equipment.
We iwll be able to earn soon as rewards more easily these experience tomes, that also let you level up instantly by +1 on double click.

last wvw season we earned as rewards already 10 of them… so level cap progression is something that absolutely isn’t a big deal for GW2.. you level so extremely fast here and if this isn’t already fast enough for you, you can use those level up tomes…

You can level up also very quickly and make alot of money just by running around in a farming Zerg in WvW more or less being brain afk most of the time.

I think ANet is preparign slowly , but gradually more and more the gaame to the asian market, what is imo a big sign for it, why Anet hasn#t never ever ruled out level cap increases or other forms of more vertical progression for the future, because they know, by making this, it would make absolutely no sense to release this Game in asia, because alot of hardcore players from there simply expect from guild Wars 2, that the game vertically progresses also gradually…

Thats how the eastern MMORPG market (overall game market) is ticking and this since over 15+ years

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

I am happy with ascended gear, yes. I like vertical progression and hope they add more to GW2 in the future. I don’t care if you and many others don’t like it, all that matters to me is what I like so yes it’s absolutely worth it. The only game you listed that I like is GW1 and I’ve tried them all except for TF2. Vertical progression is something that keeps me interested in a game, so for me, yes it’s necessary.

Reverence.6915:

Raine.1394:

Reverence.6915:

Gene Archer.8560:

Reverence.6915:

especially when it’s absolutely unnecessary.

Great, so since Ascended is so unnecessary, we can get rid of it.

Problem solved.

Ascended isn’t necessary to complete content. It’s there for people who are after progression.

Why hate on that?

Well then, it’s there for progression for the people that want it. What kind of progression are we talking about? I’ll answer for you: vertical. What is vertical progression? It is scaling character progression vertically in terms of power. That is, as time progresses the power level of the game will increase. That’s simply VP at it’s simplest. Not my opinion by the way, I claim no credit for my understanding of VP. Everything I know about it I learned.

So if the power of the game increases continually over time, does that make the treadmill optional for those who don’t wish to pursue it? Hardly. And, again, not my opinion. I simply know what VP is and how it functions in games. You can know it too and here’s a couple videos to get you started:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

I guess you can call it vertical progression. The difference is small enough that I consider it horizontal progression. Depends on your point of view. If you must have that BiS item, then sure, it’s VP. It’s just not worth the time it takes to craft for that miniscule stat increase.

Anyway, Legendary armor is going to be released in the future. Legendaries are locked to BiS, so it’s quite possible we may see 1 or 2 more tiers after ascended after Legendary armor is released.

Anet themselves called it vertical progression in their AMA on the subject, so there is no reason to consider it horizontal. It deals with the power level and it is vertical. In terms of horizontal, the most common element is skill or ability progression, but there are other possible ways to scale horizontally.

The key is that VP really doesn’t take you anywhere. Because following the power curve is non-optional, before and after a given level of VP has occurred there is no difference in power level between players. Everyone’s on the treadmill. And, because we are talking power level the environment must scale so combat doesn’t become trivial. So there is also no difference between player and environment before or after VP has occurred—there are just changes in numbers on a character sheet. What I mean is that in WoW when I started my main at max level could be 10k-15k in HP. Now, he is pushing 500k HP with corresponding increases in power. But, nothing has changed except numbers on the sheet. I die just as fast and mobs take just as long to kill. I’ve just been exercised on a treadmill—I got on and off at the same place.

Horizontal progression at least offers the possibility of true character progression where there is the possibility for true growth. Vertical offers a sense of progression to some, but once you understand that it’s empty, the shine comes off. And, make no mistake, Anet has added vertical progression—they said so themselves.

I came to this game based on what they stated prior to coming out with the game that equipment and gear would be easily attainable. You can say now that yes it is quite easy to get if you grind for countless ours for the mats to make them. I would have been fine if they add accended gear but through all means, especially Karma since that was supposed to be the big currency.
I have not played this game in a couple of months or so. Made a couple of accended weapons and stopped. I got tired of having to go out and just grind mats during the time I could play.
Is the gear needed, no it is not, however, I like to have my characters in the best gear. That is just the way I am. This game strayed away from what they said it would be. To those that like VP and think it is needed. Why did you get this game to begin with? You know from the start they would not have VP but bought it anyways. Makes no sense to me.

dustinharlin.8693:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

I am happy with ascended gear, yes. I like vertical progression and hope they add more to GW2 in the future. I don’t care if you and many others don’t like it, all that matters to me is what I like so yes it’s absolutely worth it. The only game you listed that I like is GW1 and I’ve tried them all except for TF2. Vertical progression is something that keeps me interested in a game, so for me, yes it’s necessary.

i totally agree with your way to think, but what about people that thinks the opposite? i started playing gw2 because i don’t like tradmills, they introduced it, and it’s still fine with me as long as i don’t need that kind of achievement to play. It’s totally fine for me to introduce treadmill as long as people can just decide to do it or not. It’s not the case of ascended items, i think all the contents are still enjoyable, as long as you don’t need it for a mere DPS and EP discussion. As long as they introduce new things and i can decide to do it or not, i’m happy with it. What i hate most is the attention that anet is giving to people asking for treadmills, forgetting that this game phylosophy was far more different at the very beginning, and i mean before the game was even developed. I feel like at every patch they try to move my tolerance threshold, including new VP content, testing my reaction and moving forward the next patch, like if doing this i will get used to VP without even understanding what’s happening.

First the games you listed are not mmorpgs they are all the same because they are all online games but other then that they a very different from an mmorpg. These games that you listed DO have vertical progression when you first start playing the game you cap it out fast most of the time but that is a type of vertical progression.

It all comes down to this obsession with being the best in a game where avoiding dmg is king its a artifact of other games where you start at level 1 and vertical progress to the cap level.
To have quit games over a +1 armor sets is foolish at best and more likely an out right lie. The person is more likely using it as an excuse to quitting because they do not like that GW2 has no real vertical progress at all. Look at games that do have endless vertical progress both online and offline they pull ppl in and keep them playing for the next bit of loot or the next level etc.. that what video games do they keep ppl playing though the promise of better things namely items and gear.

kokiman.2364:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

PvE skills, faction-based titles that gave you access to armor, weapons and consumables and in the first year getting BiS gear was expensive aswell (runes, upgrades)

None of that was necessary. Faction based titles were entirely optional and the armour that they gave you access to had EXACTLY the same stats as the armour you could buy from a vendor – that is horizontal progression by definition.
Runes and Upgrades were not that expensive, money was not difficult to make in GW1.

Nike.2631:

Gene Archer.8560:

We were fine with just exotic. We didn’t need Ascended. We didn’t need difficult to get armor. We didn’t need this grind.

If that were true, then why do you think the people who watch the whole of the player base every single second suddenly scrambled to implement what is indeed a massive gear grind?

Because they panicked when the locust started to leave the game. Of course, the locust left anyway – ascended was nowhere close to keep that crowd interested. So, in the end Anet might have retained a tiny fraction of the community the game wasn’t intended for, by introducing content that was at the same time poisonous to a part of the original target group, and useless for the rest.
They also fractured the community, with severe consequences that can be seen even now.

That’s because they were expecting interesting and motivating ways to gain their VP Tiers, not mindless grinding.

Astralporing.1957:

Because they panicked when the locust started to leave the game. Of course, the locust left anyway – ascended was nowhere close to keep that crowd interested. So, in the end Anet might have retained a tiny fraction of the community the game wasn’t intended for, by introducing content that was at the same time poisonous to a part of the original target group, and useless for the rest.
They also fractured the community, with severe consequences that can be seen even now.

I’ve quite often read people post here that the reason Anet ran with Ascended gear was because of the loud outcry of people wanting it, and because of the loss of players. This is a perfectly legitimate argument, and perhaps it is in fact the case.

Personally, I’ve always felt it was for the exact opposite reason. I’ve always suspected that what actually happened was that the game exceeded even their expectations with pre-orders and initial sales. And once having got that core group firmly within their hands (the money), someone in the top level hierarchy decided to go after the WoW teenagers as well, thus forcing the Devs towards vertical progression. In other words, someone got greedy.

So the Devs had to drag out their “always intended” ascended gear, except I suspect they added a stat progression to that “always intended” gear that was not there originally. Of course a backlash was expected, but I believe they felt it would blow over relatively quickly. But even if it did not blow over quickly, and some of the original buyers storm off, no big deal – because that money is already had, and the newly added players would generate even more revenue.

Of course this is all just pure speculation on my part, and nothing more than that. Truth is, we will never really know for sure, as Anet, and Anet alone has the metrics for the game for those mere 2 months after release.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

kokiman.2364:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

PvE skills, faction-based titles that gave you access to armor, weapons and consumables and in the first year getting BiS gear was expensive aswell (runes, upgrades)

None of that was necessary. Faction based titles were entirely optional and the armour that they gave you access to had EXACTLY the same stats as the armour you could buy from a vendor – that is horizontal progression by definition.
Runes and Upgrades were not that expensive, money was not difficult to make in GW1.

That depends on what stage of GW1 are you looking at. At release, money was far from easy to get and things like a Rune of Superior Vigor were next to prohibitive.

Ision.3207:

Astralporing.1957:

Because they panicked when the locust started to leave the game. Of course, the locust left anyway – ascended was nowhere close to keep that crowd interested. So, in the end Anet might have retained a tiny fraction of the community the game wasn’t intended for, by introducing content that was at the same time poisonous to a part of the original target group, and useless for the rest.
They also fractured the community, with severe consequences that can be seen even now.

I’ve quite often read people post here that the reason Anet ran with Ascended gear was because of the loud outcry of people wanting it, and because of the loss of players. This is a perfectly legitimate argument, and perhaps it is in fact the case.

Personally, I’ve always felt it was for the exact opposite reason. I’ve always suspected that what actually happened was that the game exceeded even their expectations with pre-orders and initial sales; and having got that core group firmly within their hands (the money), someone in the top level hierarchy decided to go after the WoW teenagers as well. In other words, they got greedy.

So they dragged out the “always intended” ascended gear, except I suspect they added a stat progression to that “always intended” gear that was not there originally. Of course a backlash was expected, but I believe they felt it would blow over relatively quickly. But even if it did not blow over quickly, and some of the original buyers storm off, no big deal – because that money is already had, and the newly added players would generate even more revenue.

Of course this is all just pure speculation on my part, and nothing more than that. Truth is, we will never really know for sure, as Anet, and Anet alone has the metrics for the game for those mere 2 months after release.

This is feeling I’ve always gotten for the Ascended fiasco. No proof, just gut feeling. I know that none of the 600 people I brought to GW2 with me left until after the new tier. Now, as I said earlier, there’s only 2 of us left. Not knowing the greater picture, I can only judge by the people I play with, and they spoke up by leaving.

Vargamonth.2047:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

kokiman.2364:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

PvE skills, faction-based titles that gave you access to armor, weapons and consumables and in the first year getting BiS gear was expensive aswell (runes, upgrades)

None of that was necessary. Faction based titles were entirely optional and the armour that they gave you access to had EXACTLY the same stats as the armour you could buy from a vendor – that is horizontal progression by definition.
Runes and Upgrades were not that expensive, money was not difficult to make in GW1.

That depends on what stage of GW1 are you looking at. At release, money was far from easy to get and things like a Rune of Superior Vigor were next to prohibitive.

But in prophecies the storyline was long and leveling up was not a speedy process. It wasn’t a grind either, at no point did you have to stop and level up before proceeding – the progression arc was simply longer. Which meant that you didn’t need those runes until you got to Dronkar’s – at which point you probably should have been in a place to afford them.

If I wanted vertical progression I would have stuck to WoW, their game was built for vertical progression and is a much more rewarding experience. I came to GW2 to play wvw and the happy thoughts that I wouldn’t have to upgrade my pvp gear every season, like you need to do in WoW every 6 months, but two months into release and that illusion wkittentered.

Now every time I step into wvw I always have to think about obtaining ascended gear, because sooner or later enough people are going to have enough pieces to make a difference in battles. Why oh why was this game not build with spvp and wvw systems separate from pve.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Vargamonth.2047:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

kokiman.2364:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

PvE skills, faction-based titles that gave you access to armor, weapons and consumables and in the first year getting BiS gear was expensive aswell (runes, upgrades)

None of that was necessary. Faction based titles were entirely optional and the armour that they gave you access to had EXACTLY the same stats as the armour you could buy from a vendor – that is horizontal progression by definition.
Runes and Upgrades were not that expensive, money was not difficult to make in GW1.

That depends on what stage of GW1 are you looking at. At release, money was far from easy to get and things like a Rune of Superior Vigor were next to prohibitive.

But in prophecies the storyline was long and leveling up was not a speedy process. It wasn’t a grind either, at no point did you have to stop and level up before proceeding – the progression arc was simply longer. Which meant that you didn’t need those runes until you got to Dronkar’s – at which point you probably should have been in a place to afford them.

You didn’t need those runes neither before Droknar’s nor later on. You also didn’t need a “perfect” weapon, something only a really small part of the playerbase had, at any point.
You could complete the content with easily attainable subpar gear, just like in GW2.

Characters weren’t easy/cheap to max out gear wise until NF or so (until close to GW2 release if we include title-based PvE skills in the equation, and I’m probably being a bit generous counting allegiance rank 6 as easy).

Xenesis.6389:

If I wanted vertical progression I would have stuck to WoW, their game was built for vertical progression and is a much more rewarding experience. I came to GW2 to play wvw and the happy thoughts that I wouldn’t have to upgrade my pvp gear every season, like you need to do in WoW every 6 months, but two months into release and that illusion wkittentered.

Now every time I step into wvw I always have to think about obtaining ascended gear, because sooner or later enough people are going to have enough pieces to make a difference in battles. Why oh why was this game not build with spvp and wvw systems separate from pve.

I have the exact same opinion. I came to this game from wow for the same reason.

thaooo.5320:

You’re obviously lying, or are confusing pve players with wvw players. The hard core wvw players I’m surrounded with do not have a full set of armour, or even close to a full set of armour.

I know one who does (3 sets, mind you), but you know, ranger… I am a semi-hardcore (more hardcore than semi) WvW player and yeah, I only just finished my coat. The only reason is because in my country there was an unfortunate timing situation with a BF4 league (we are doing horribly, but fun is fun) – and that demanded my time.

But those 5% stats are COMPLETELY and inarguably irrelevant compared to player skill. It is immeasurably rare that you find a player who is in the same skill bracket as you while roaming – and it is entirely only in that case that those 5% stats make a difference. Even while zerging a good player doesn’t need that extra 5% (keep in mind, I appreciate all styles of play – a good zerger is as valuable as a good roamer).

Remember, WvW is often-time compared to real life. Despite how much I hate that comparison one fact holds true – in real life both supplies (gold) and experience (dungeons) are extremely important to your average foot soldier. This applies to my server, a good majority of our WvW players are WvW-vets (and hence are just epic, no complaints) – the some that are PvE experimenting in WvW have competency that PUGs we face do not; they need to learn how to listen, but they do well.

A good WvW’er will spend a very small portion (like I do) of their time in PvE earning gold for their WvW coffers. They will play alts (which, at times, must remain in PvE while levelling) to learn the weaknesses of the foes that they face. If your WvW friends are not doing PvE then they are mistaken, because us WvW’ers are unfairly good at PvE.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

stale.9785:

yayuuu.9420:

If you want to know my opinion about ascended – I have left the game a month after release. I was able to get lvl 80 and full exotic armor in less than one month, then I did almost all of the dungeons and for another week I had no motication to do anything in the game. Now I came back partially with introduction of ascended weapon crafting and now I’m playing GW2 as my main MMORPG since they added asdended armor craft. Ascended brought me back to the game. I fully enjoy progression, it gives me a reason to play, to get my equipment maxed.

You have mentioned about games without vertical progression, like LOL, DOTA, TF2 – none of them is a MMORPG. It’s a completly different game, so comparing them to GW2 is not good.

On the other hand, GW1 was more like a singleplayer game for me. I have finished campaigns and left the game for few months, then I turned it on again, created a new character, finished campaigns and left it again, for good. There was no reason for me to do anything else in the game than story. It was a solid game, but I would compare it to games like Heretic 2, Drakan or Tomb Raider, just complete missions and game over.

The bolded part. This is how the game was marketed, and how it was supposed to be. The entire game is end-game.

Introducing gear grind – and yes, it’s grind, and obligatory if you want BiS gear, is what made me essentially stop playing.

Were I to re-download and log into GW today, my characters would all still have the BiS gear that I got on them back in 2006. For someone in GW2, if you’ve been away for a while, you’re going to find that your fully geared character is no longer fully geared – they’re not wearing BiS. Despite over five years of advertising that there would be no vertical progression for stats on gear.

So, I’m polar opposite from you – ascended is the nail that killed it for me.

So basically you want to play the game for a month, then quit for a year, then come back being still in the best equipment, do some random stuff and then quit again for a year? (that’s question, not the statement)

I want to play the game continously and I want to have somme goals in the game. Bu that I’m not saying that Ascended gear is the only goal, but it’s a really good goal for me. The new skills would be really cool too, if they were added more frequently (I really like collecting new skills in games). Right now we have seen only few healing skills and nothing really usefull for me. On the other hand, you might call new skills a horizontal progression, but they are partially vertical too. With new skills you can find something that suits your build more and that will make your build a bit stronger.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

yayuuu.9420:

stale.9785:

yayuuu.9420:

If you want to know my opinion about ascended – I have left the game a month after release. I was able to get lvl 80 and full exotic armor in less than one month, then I did almost all of the dungeons and for another week I had no motication to do anything in the game. Now I came back partially with introduction of ascended weapon crafting and now I’m playing GW2 as my main MMORPG since they added asdended armor craft. Ascended brought me back to the game. I fully enjoy progression, it gives me a reason to play, to get my equipment maxed.

You have mentioned about games without vertical progression, like LOL, DOTA, TF2 – none of them is a MMORPG. It’s a completly different game, so comparing them to GW2 is not good.

On the other hand, GW1 was more like a singleplayer game for me. I have finished campaigns and left the game for few months, then I turned it on again, created a new character, finished campaigns and left it again, for good. There was no reason for me to do anything else in the game than story. It was a solid game, but I would compare it to games like Heretic 2, Drakan or Tomb Raider, just complete missions and game over.

The bolded part. This is how the game was marketed, and how it was supposed to be. The entire game is end-game.

Introducing gear grind – and yes, it’s grind, and obligatory if you want BiS gear, is what made me essentially stop playing.

Were I to re-download and log into GW today, my characters would all still have the BiS gear that I got on them back in 2006. For someone in GW2, if you’ve been away for a while, you’re going to find that your fully geared character is no longer fully geared – they’re not wearing BiS. Despite over five years of advertising that there would be no vertical progression for stats on gear.

So, I’m polar opposite from you – ascended is the nail that killed it for me.

So basically you want to play the game for a month, then quit for a year, then come back being still in the best equipment, do some random stuff and then quit again for a year? (that’s question, not the statement)

I want to play the game continously and I want to have somme goals in the game. Bu that I’m not saying that Ascended gear is the only goal, but it’s a really good goal for me. The new skills would be really cool too, if they were added more frequently (I really like collecting new skills in games). Right now we have seen only few healing skills and nothing really usefull for me. On the other hand, you might call new skills a horizontal progression, but they are partially vertical too. With new skills you can find something that suits your build more and that will make your build a bit stronger.

I’d love if I could quit for a year, come back, still be in the best equipment. That’s what was advertised – best in slot for everyone, even casuals. As it stands, not only has the old BiS (exotic) been made obsolete, but they admit to having planned further vertical progression through ever-more-powerful infusions.

This means that if real life takes priority for whatever reason, when I come back, I’m behind the curve. This is uncool.

Adding skills, more areas, jumping puzzles, DE’s, dungeons, etc – all of that would be horizontal progression, of which I’m 100% in support of. Adding armour tiers and VP power treadmill? That’s just not cool.

So, to answer the question – yes, I’d love if I could quit for a year, come back, complete whatever new content there was (that didn’t disappear because it was poorly executed temporary content – that’s a different gripe though) and still be in max gear if I decide to pop into WvW or run some dungeons with friends/guildies.

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

Simple check here.

Does having the skills or abilities make the content easier than for someone who does not have those skills? If yes then vertical progression. If no then horizontal.

Stat increase is just one form of vertical progression, not it’s entirety. Power creep has to do with increases to statistical power level over time, not vertical progression and is often attributed to gear increases and can be measured by mobs and challenges also increasing in power to keep up with the player. This can be seen in GW1 as your character progresses and the needs of certain skill types in order to complete certain content efficiently.

Vertical progression is anything that sets one player above another.

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

Sounds like someone is mad, but I’ll respond to your questions anyway.

Yes, I am pleased that vertical progression was added to the game. I was definitely not happy with GW2 only catering to the cosmetics monkeys that made Anet millions last year by falling into the “you must buy the new rare cosmetic item every 2 weeks” cash-shop trap for suckers. It is a good thing that content is being added to the game for non-cosmetics carebears.

I am sorry(not really) if it damages the game for you. You have the option not to participate since Exotics are more than viable. Unlike every single other MMO that has done vertical progression, the gap between Exotic and Ascended is negligible as far as viability goes.

Anyway, go have fun tossing Anet your money for the new cash shop item that came out this weeks. I’ll be making my ascended at not $$$ cost to me.

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

Simple check here.

Does having the skills or abilities make the content easier than for someone who does not have those skills? If yes then vertical progression. If no then horizontal.

Stat increase is just one form of vertical progression, not it’s entirety. Power creep has to do with increases to statistical power level over time, not vertical progression and is often attributed to gear increases and can be measured by mobs and challenges also increasing in power to keep up with the player. This can be seen in GW1 as your character progresses and the needs of certain skill types in order to complete certain content efficiently.

Vertical progression is anything that sets one player above another.

The game being easier is not the test for VP. You have to understand what the definitions are for the two forms of character progression. And, you can know this easily by googling the terms yourself.

At any rate, vertical progression scales a character vertically over time through increases to a characters power, usually through gear, but it could be through infusions. Basically anything that increases a characters power over time. It has nothing to do with setting a player above another.

Horizontal progression is usually implemented through skill or ability progression. This is not my understanding or my opinion. It’s what the terms mean. Again, just google the terms and you too can understand what they mean.

Vp in WoW takes a lot less time to get than in gw2, by the time you have a set of ascended armor maybe 2-3 whole teirs can pass, unless you just buying with cash.

Vp can work, I didn’t quit gw2 because of vp or none it was the lacking content at all, LS was awful gemstore added more than in game armor ect.

kokiman.2364:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

PvE skills, faction-based titles that gave you access to armor, weapons and consumables and in the first year getting BiS gear was expensive aswell (runes, upgrades)

There was exactly zero statistical difference between 15k armor and 1k armor. Faction titles didn’t exist in the first year, yet ascended thrusted it’s way in within 3 months. BiS gear cost was subjective to the profession that the player was buying gear for, E.G. Totem axes.

It also only takes at most 30-40 hours if you really wanted to max Kurzick/Luxon, which is pointless these days. How long does it take to get full ascended with max infusions?

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Boneheart.3561:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

In what way was GW1 grindy?
The end game achievements like vanquishing and cartography sure. But the game itself was not grindy at all – it was entirely story based and armour was very very easy to get.

Armbrace of Truth.

That was completely optional content.
I never even touched that part of the game and I was no better or worse off than anyone else for it.

I’m not seeing you specifying content.

I don’t get what you mean?
You want me to specify how the game didn’t have vertical progression?
The level cap was never raised from 20. The top tier armour stats were never raised – all new and elite/prestige armour was simply cosmetic – it did not provide any in game advantage over other players. Same with weapons – you could get max stat weapons from vendors or from regular drops.

Once you hit maximum achievement points there were never any more.

Everyone in PvP was at the exact same level with access to the exact same gear.

GW1 was a game with a short vertical progression curve. But once you hit level 20 progression was entirely horizontal.

Skills were a form of vertical progression because they made the game easier.

Certain skill sets made your character better at the content than a player without those skills. Vert progression.

Skill or ability progression is probably the primary form of implementing horizontal progression. I just googled “horizontal progression” and in the first hit I found this on HP:

“Rather than equipping characters to face the latest content the MMO world can throw at them, horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn’t inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect.”

Vertical progression has to do with increases to the power level of the game over time. Skill or ability progression is purely horizontal and offers a true expansion of your character. But, it is not vertical…at all.

Simple check here.

Does having the skills or abilities make the content easier than for someone who does not have those skills? If yes then vertical progression. If no then horizontal.

Stat increase is just one form of vertical progression, not it’s entirety. Power creep has to do with increases to statistical power level over time, not vertical progression and is often attributed to gear increases and can be measured by mobs and challenges also increasing in power to keep up with the player. This can be seen in GW1 as your character progresses and the needs of certain skill types in order to complete certain content efficiently.

Vertical progression is anything that sets one player above another.

The game being easier is not the test for VP. You have to understand what the definitions are for the two forms of character progression. And, you can know this easily by googling the terms yourself.

At any rate, vertical progression scales a character vertically over time through increases to a characters power, usually through gear, but it could be through infusions. Basically anything that increases a characters power over time. It has nothing to do with setting a player above another.

Horizontal progression is usually implemented through skill or ability progression. This is not my understanding or my opinion. It’s what the terms mean. Again, just google the terms and you too can understand what they mean.

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

SOME vertical progression is good. A game built entirely around it is bad.

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I’d really like to know if this was really worth damaging the game for me and many others.

Those that say Vertical Progression is necessary for a games longevity, then how do you explain successful games such as LoL, DOTA 2, GW1, DAY Z and TF2 (currently 10 x more popular than Planteside 2, even after over 6 years.) all thriving with little to no vertical progression?

I am not one of those who asked for Vertical Progression, but I could care less for ascended stuff. Heck, ever since the game started, and I had enough coins, I have been running on my Lv78 Exotic Berserker gear with Traveller Rune (yes, even before they become pricey). And I mean, ALL of my toons!!

Can I do dungeon with my Lv78 Zerker Gear? Yes
Can I do normal PvE with Lv78 Zerker Gear? Yes
Can I do WvWvW with Lv78 Zerker Gear? Yes (and I know I shouldn’t be glass canon in wvw, but just saying)
Can I do FotM and EotM with Lv78 Zerker Gear? Yes

Am I having difficulty doing all those things I listed above? Heck no
Am I being a problem that drags my team and slow them down? Heck no
Have I been kicked in PuG, be it in WvW, dungeon, FotM or EotM? Haven’t yet.

So what I’m saying is, as long as I can complete those I listed with my Lv78 Zerker Gear, I could care less whatever Anet throws out for the vertical progression people.

Don’t believe me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUKexYPL1cU

My video, the date is 2012, and if you expand the “Description” of the video, you’ll see I mentioned there I use Lv78 Gear with Trav Runes.

So yeah, Ascended, won’t affect me. I solo Champions in PvE with my Gear