Guild Wars 2

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games, is because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale as GW2. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

hellsmachine.4085:

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

killcannon.2576:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

You may be right. However, we really don’t know. As a realistic attempt to prove that alternative progression would work, GW2 is sadly lacking.

GW2 cosmetic progression was too shallow. There were nowhere near enough endgame skins. Also, the developer grossly underestimated how quickly players would attain the cosmetic carrots the game did have. There were few if any means for non-cosmetic, non vertical character development at launch, and there remain few if any now.

Cosmetic endgame progression failed in GW2 for several reasons.

• A tremendous amount of effort went into non-endgame armor skins. None of the pre-80 skins convey any kind of prestige, and prestige is a significant motivator in MMO endgame.
• Skin transmutations fosters the idea that pursuing multiple looks for a character is a pain. Discouraging the pursuit of endgame rewards is not a good idea.
• Armor skins need to fit 5 races, and 3 of those races require an additional skin for females; this meant that producing armor skins was resource intensive.
• ANet opted to fund the game primarily through the store, and wanted to avoid the pay-to-win accusations that would accompany selling too much in-game effectiveness. Under that scenario, selling cosmetics was inevitable. Thus, cosmetics were asked to play too many roles.

Romek.4201:

yes i like the vertical progression and im happy anet go atleast with babysteps this way

im an oldschool gamer and MY games years ago had no lvl cap or things like this and im really annoyed by this facebook generation which want everything for free in games so gamecompanys dont make good games anymore and castrated the gengre MMORPG over the last years

There is a difference between “give me everything for free” and “I’m tired of this carrot-on-a-stick routine.”

You see, while you are spending the vast majority of your time grinding for gear to do content, I’m doing the content.

What your mentality seems to be in my eyes is: grind for this gear, then I’m finished with this gear, can’t wait to start the next gear, meanwhile, you’re berating those who would rather do the content that gear was made for than grind for the gear necessary to do the content.

I didn’t buy a game to work, I bought a game to game, and a game is about fun, it can be about relaxing fun, or intense adrenaline filled fun, but there is no such thing as adrenaline filled grinding in my eyes.
While it is true that Anet can’t please everyone, there is a certain threshold of grindiness at which point it is clearly revealed which demographic of the game’s population a company has become more favorable to, and if that happens, and it happens to be the group that prefers grind to fun, then that is the day I will stop playing, before I am forced to start working.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

I’d like to take the time to thank everyone on their honest answers. I would also like to thank ArenaNet for keeping this thread open.

I have learned quite a bit from all of you. I see that there is indeed a strong demand/market for a “No grind MMORPG”. A void that was supposed to be filled by GW2.

I also see that even though there was a number of you, whom enjoy gear grind, are happy with the VP grind added to the game, there are also many who are not happy, nor will they be IMO because so many other games do VP better.

ArenaNet I hope you are reading this and taking notes. As a fan of this game, I still have faith in you that one day you will release the game that was promised to us before launch, the game you made us believe had “No grind”. This game is absolutely amazing in so many ways.

For whatever reason (most likely financial) you decided to go against this and increase the stat cap and introduce vertical progression through grinding. By doing that you have opened up a whole can of worms and entered the VP game and are now in competition with so many MMOs that already do this and many that do this better. There was no competitor in the “No grind” MMORPG department. No one has done it before NO ONE!!!

Many of you that commented keep saying that the games I listed are not MMORPGs and that MMORPGs need VP, because all MMORPGs have VP. You think that without VP or a “carrot on a stick” everyone will get bored and stop playing.

The reason I mentioned these games because they all have significantly large numbers and all manage to keep players coming back for more. They don’t have a gear treadmill or stat grind yet they all stay, despite people saying everyone will get bored without a stat grind. Why do they stay? Why aren’t they getting bored and leaving in mass heards as predicted by the doomsday crowd?

All these games have two main things in common that keep players coming back for more… (there are probably more)

1. PvP. In all of these games, players are all basically doing the same thing, killing other players, or teaming up with other players to kill other players.

2.New Content. New maps, new skins, new weapons, new skills, new creative ideas etc etc…

Now just look at the sheer numbers in these games…

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

You will see a large number of people that play these games, even larger than some MMORPGs such as Rift and DCUO. So the demand, to keep an MMORPG with no stat grind, alive is there.

Anet (or any one else in the gaming industry reading this) I really hope that someone takes what they have learned from this and makes a new MMORPG with the same quality, polish, gameplay and scale. If you make it PvP focused and keep adding new content as you have in GW2 then I believe it will be just as successful, if not more so than GW2.

Peace.

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

killcannon.2576:

And pve is dictated by progression.

LOL

Thanks for that, I needed a good laugh today.

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

Yes, i agree there are opinions….

1.There are those that want vertical progression.

2.There are those that don’t want VP

3.And there are those that don’t care.

I’m not asking for them to remove it from this game I am simply asking for someone to make a new game without it.

Just because YOU don’t want something, doesn’t mean many others don’t.

This doesn’t effect you so calm down.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding

1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
synonyms: order to, command to, tell to, call on to, enjoin to, urge to; More
literarybid
“Harvey demanded that I tell him the truth”
ask, enquire, question, interrogate;
challenge
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
insist on having.
“an outraged public demanded retribution”
synonyms: call for, ask for, request, press for, push for, hold out for, clamour for, bay for; More
insist on, lay claim to, claim, requisition
“workers demanded wage increases”
insist on, stipulate, make a condition of, exact, impose;
expect, look for
“most of those who contacted us demanded complete anonymity”
require; need.
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”
synonyms: require, need, necessitate, call for, take, involve, entail; More
cry out for, want
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Who is asking for it? Where are they? You are using a circular argument. " If someone made it, it would be popular; it’s not popular because no one has made it"

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

Raine.1394:

killcannon.2576:

There are no set definitions on google. Just opinion pieces. You may like Taugrim and Experienced Points, but a definition they do not make.

Vertical moves you up and above other players. Examples : Skills, gear stats, story progression to an extent, dungeon progression, crafting, leveling, access to different parts of a game not available to all.

Horizontal does not. Examples: skins, story progression, titles

It’s common sense.

You are wanting to use a very narrow definition to support your views which are not objectively defined anywhere.

Nope. Google the terms if you want to know what they mean. You will not find opinion pieces, at least not on what character progression is. There really aren’t opinions on this aspect of character progression. Opinions come in around whether you prefer a given mode of character progression. I’m not going to respond to you again because you are simply wrong. All you need to do is google the terms to know this, so you are now wrong by choice. The definitions I used are conventionally understood. They are not narrow. And, you do not understand what the terms mean.

I completely understand what they mean. I just choose not to cherry pick.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+progression&oq=verti&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j69i57j0l4.4802j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=horizontal+progression

There’s your two search queries. Opinions everywhere.

Yes, i agree there are opinions….

1.There are those that want vertical progression.

2.There are those that don’t want VP

3.And there are those that don’t care.

I’m not asking for them to remove it from this game I am simply asking for someone to make a new game without it.

Just because YOU don’t want something, doesn’t mean many others don’t.

This doesn’t effect you so calm down.

lol, I’m not taking offense or excited. Just enjoying a spirited discussion.

If you don’t want them to remove it from the game or institute a more Horizontal based approach here…..then this isn’t about GW2 at all then?

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding

1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
synonyms: order to, command to, tell to, call on to, enjoin to, urge to; More
literarybid
“Harvey demanded that I tell him the truth”
ask, enquire, question, interrogate;
challenge
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
insist on having.
“an outraged public demanded retribution”
synonyms: call for, ask for, request, press for, push for, hold out for, clamour for, bay for; More
insist on, lay claim to, claim, requisition
“workers demanded wage increases”
insist on, stipulate, make a condition of, exact, impose;
expect, look for
“most of those who contacted us demanded complete anonymity”
require; need.
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”
synonyms: require, need, necessitate, call for, take, involve, entail; More
cry out for, want
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Who is asking for it? Where are they? You are using a circular argument. " If someone made it, it would be popular; it’s not popular because no one has made it"

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

No offense but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you are just trying to start an argument. So I’m just going to ignore you from now.

K thanks bye.

killcannon.2576:

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

Therein lies the ultimate issue: ArenaNet didn’t want to upset all the GW1 fans (arguably the ones that should be the staunchest GW supporters) by implementing a crazy expensive, time-gated grind that was NECESSARY to succeed at the game.

They had already felt the fallout and lashback from the player-base with the initial introduction of Ascended.

So they kept it to a 5% increase on stats…

It’s beneficial, but not required.

However, it’s extremely time-gated and expensive…

So if it’s not required, and the armor doesn’t look that great (most people would probably just Transmute over top of it)…

Then what’s the point to crafting it?

They failed to appease vertical progressionists because it doesn’t give them enough artificial superiority…

And it just upset the horizontal progressionists (who arguably supported ANet the most… with GW1 and then pre-ordering GW2 on the promise of horizontal gameplay).

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Minos.5168:

killcannon.2576:

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

Therein lies the ultimate issue: ArenaNet didn’t want to upset all the GW1 fans (arguably the ones that should be the staunchest GW supporters) by implementing a crazy expensive, time-gated grind that was NECESSARY to succeed at the game.

They had already felt the fallout and lashback from the player-base with the initial introduction of Ascended.

So they kept it to a 5% increase on stats…

It’s beneficial, but not required.

However, it’s extremely time-gated and expensive…

So if it’s not required, and the armor doesn’t look that great (most people would probably just Transmute over top of it)…

Then what’s the point to crafting it?

They failed to appease vertical progressionists because it doesn’t give them enough artificial superiority…

And it just upset the horizontal progressionists (who arguably supported ANet the most… with GW1 and then pre-ordering GW2 on the promise of horizontal gameplay).

Agreed, it was a failure at implementation and concept for the most part. They should have never have went for a stat based progression system in a game not designed for it.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

killcannon.2576:

hellsmachine.4085:

There is no “demand” for a MMORPG for a straight focused horizontal progression. MMORPGs live, breath, and die on the pve side. And pve is dictated by progression.

And the market is filled with multiplayer pvp games already, with more everyday. PVP’ers aren’t interested in the pve for the most part.

The evidence suggests otherwise.

You list off pvp non mmorpg games as evidence. Great work.

Look at how much pizza people buy!! People must obviously want fish sticks!!

demand
dmnd/
noun
noun: demand; plural noun: demands

1.
an insistent and peremptory request, made as of right.
“a series of demands for far-reaching reforms”
synonyms: request, call; More
command, order, dictate, ultimatum, stipulation;
insistence, pressure, clamour, importunity, urging;
informala big ask;
archaicbehest, hest
“his demands for electoral reform”
pressing requirements.
“he’s got enough demands on his time already”
synonyms: requirement, need, desire, wish, want; More
claim, imposition, exigency
“a job that fits in with the demands of a young family”
the desire of consumers, clients, employers, etc. for a particular commodity, service, or other item.
“a recent slump in demand”
synonyms: market, call, appetite, desire; More
run on, rush on
“the big demand for such toys”

verb
verb: demand; 3rd person present: demands; past tense: demanded; past participle: demanded; gerund or present participle: demanding

1.
ask authoritatively or brusquely.
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
synonyms: order to, command to, tell to, call on to, enjoin to, urge to; More
literarybid
“Harvey demanded that I tell him the truth”
ask, enquire, question, interrogate;
challenge
“‘Where is she?’ he demanded”
insist on having.
“an outraged public demanded retribution”
synonyms: call for, ask for, request, press for, push for, hold out for, clamour for, bay for; More
insist on, lay claim to, claim, requisition
“workers demanded wage increases”
insist on, stipulate, make a condition of, exact, impose;
expect, look for
“most of those who contacted us demanded complete anonymity”
require; need.
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”
synonyms: require, need, necessitate, call for, take, involve, entail; More
cry out for, want
“a complex activity demanding detailed knowledge”

There are many people asking for this so, yes there is a “demand”.

Why are you so angry and argumentative?

Who is asking for it? Where are they? You are using a circular argument. " If someone made it, it would be popular; it’s not popular because no one has made it"

Developers have tried HP for years, it doesn’t work. People don’t want it. It doesn’t populate a world. It’s too casual. It doesn’t make people log in.

People who log in every day, who populate servers, who make the zerg, who make the guilds, the Hardcores people sneer at, the min maxers, the elitists. These are the people who MMO’s are targeted at.

A casual, horizontal progression based pve focused MMO wouldn’t keep people logging in. And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO. Horizontal progression is a carrot that isn’t a carrot. Players need a why. To look pretty? May as well play Super Fun Barbie Adventure Dress Up Time. Do you see a SFBADUT mmo?

It’s why Ascended isn’t drawing people to this game. There is no reason to go after it. It’s an empty, shallow, pointless progression system. There is zero reason for it to be in there.

Horizontal “progression” will never successfully happen in an mmorpg focused on pve content. It’s human nature. People want to progress, and they want that progression to matter.

No offense but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Either that or you are just trying to start an argument. So I’m just going to ignore you from now.

K thanks bye.

Right….I should have listed off Counterstrike and Team Fortress as good references on how to make a MMO. Then I would have known what I was talking about.

Gotcha.

Levelling from 1-80 is vertical progression, how come you’re OK with that? And don’t say you are referring only to endgame because Ascended is a stepping stone just like levelling is, neither are actual endgame content and you don’t even have to do Ascended there’s no real reason to it doesn’t actually benefit you in anyway.

I think you just like to complain.

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

MistaMike.7356:

Levelling from 1-80 is vertical progression, how come you’re OK with that?

A lot of players(mostly gone now) are not ok with the leveling in GW2. It would have been a better game(and sequel for that matter) without levels at all.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

MistaMike.7356:

Levelling from 1-80 is vertical progression, how come you’re OK with that? And don’t say you are referring only to endgame because Ascended is a stepping stone just like levelling is, neither are actual endgame content and you don’t even have to do Ascended there’s no real reason to it doesn’t actually benefit you in anyway.

I think you just like to complain.

You get to 80 naturally by just playing the game and doing DE’s along the way to each new Personal Story point. Never have I felt like I had to stop the narrative and kill 50 Ogres or w/e before I was allowed to move on and continue the story. That’s the difference.

The levels are a system to keep people from going where they either logically should be able to go yet because they story hasn’t gotten there, or to places that a person fresh out of bootcamp wouldn’t be able to survive in (say an area controlled by powerful monsters that you have never encountered before and shouldn’t be able to just mow down right after meeting them). It also gives folks a a sense of accomplishment regardless of how real it is.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Sigh.

Sand box mmorpg’s are the epitome of vertical progression systems. The people who play the most are the most powerful. EvE is a fine example of this. A skill based vertical progression system.

Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.

Thanks

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Sigh.

Sand box mmorpg’s are the epitome of vertical progression systems. The people who play the most are the most powerful. EvE is a fine example of this. A skill based vertical progression system.

Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.

Thanks

Sigh

You think Eve is a vertical progression game? Yikes.

The fact that you think carrots is the way you get players to play just says you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Who chases carrots? casuals, achievement-hounds, farmers, and, yes, grinders.
Who populates these MMO’s nowadays? casuals mostly
Who are MMOrpg’s targeted at? casuals with money.

You need to learn your gamers.
Hard-cores are really just intense players; both in time investment and difficulty.
Elitists are simply the best hard-core gamers that like to flaunt it.
Min-maxers couldn’t give two poops about vertical progression, they just want the best stat combinations.

Your logic is flawed because you think that just because something is present in most games, then it must be intrinsic to it. That’s like saying since everyone sleeps during the night, sleeping must be inherent to nighttime. GG

And no, MMO doesn’t just mean massive amounts of players. Only the first “M” means that.

Thanks.

hellsmachine.4085:

I’m curious to know if you, the people that asked for vertical progression/gear grind/carrot on a stick, are happy with Ascended gear being added to the game. Is this what you were after? Are you now satisfied? Or are you disappointed? Are you now craving the next level of grind/progression/carrot chasing? Or have you already returned to whatever game it is you came from?

I didn’t ask for anything, but I don’t mind it. It’s not like you HAVE to get Ascended gear anyway. And it’s not like it’s a grind. Just play the game, the stuff you’ll need to create ascended weapons and armor will be there.

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

killcannon.2576:

And without people logging in, grinding, going after the carrot…you don’t have a MMO.

Where do players like you come from?

I’m serious, I really want to know.

I suppose from the same place you do?

Can you present a convincing argument as to why my statement is not true? Or not?

Can’t tell if serious…

Well yeah, it’s asinine to think an MMO’s lifeblood is determined by vertical progression. It’s common sense really, I don’t know how to teach that.

Common sense eh?

Care to name off a few non vert progression based MMOrpgs? Should be easy right? It’s just common sense.

Ooh, ooh, I can do that too:

Skillbars are what MMO’s are based on, they all have em. Care to name off a few non-skillbar based MMOrpgs?

So no then?

Thanks for your valuable input.

And thanks for your invaluable rhetoric. Like I said, if you think vertical progression is inherent to mmorpg’s I can’t really help you. Vertical progression is a common theme in modern mmo’s, but that’s not what you asked. EVEonline comes to mind, and most sandbox games aim for horizontal, but that’s still beside the point.

What defines an mmo is exactly that: massively multiplayer online dot dot dot. VP is merely taking advantage of the human mind’s instinctive urge to advance. It doesn’t matter if it’s B.S. or fake, it makes many feel all warm and fuzzy inside to hear that “ding” or don that next-tier helm. It’s a psychological trick that’s inherent to loads of products across many marketing demographics.

So, no, it’s not any more inherent to MMO’s as nicotine is to your neurons. It’s an addiction.

Sigh.

Sand box mmorpg’s are the epitome of vertical progression systems. The people who play the most are the most powerful. EvE is a fine example of this. A skill based vertical progression system.

Thanks for bringing it back to my original statement as well. MMO means massive amounts of players.
How do you get players to play? Carrots.
Who chases carrots more than anyone else? Hardcores, elitists, min maxers, grinders etc etc
Who populates the worlds to make them massive in the first place? Non casuals.
Who are MMOrpgs targeted at? People who will play a lot, or in GW2’s case, people who will also buy gold to shortcut the grind.

Thanks

Sigh

You think Eve is a vertical progression game? Yikes.

The fact that you think carrots is the way you get players to play just says you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Who chases carrots? casuals, achievement-hounds, farmers, and, yes, grinders.
Who populates these MMO’s nowadays? casuals mostly
Who are MMOrpg’s targeted at? casuals with money.

You need to learn your gamers.
Hard-cores are really just intense players; both in time investment and difficulty.
Elitists are simply the best hard-core gamers that like to flaunt it.
Min-maxers couldn’t give two poops about vertical progression, they just want the best stat combinations.

Your logic is flawed because you think that just because something is present is most games, then it must be intrinsic to it. That’s like saying since everyone sleeps during the night, sleeping must be inherent to nighttime. GG

And no, MMO doesn’t just mean massive amounts of players. Only the first “M” means that.

And yet….you still have not given a single mmorpg not based on vert progression to refute me. Even with my flawed logic.

EvE online is a classic example of vertical progression. Are you trying to say that a new player has all the same skills and abilities as one that has been playing for a year? No they don’t. Have to purchase skills to be at the same level as others? yes you do. Not horizontal progression.

lol casuals chasing carrots. seriously made me chuckle. smh

Character advancement has been one of the basic elements of RPGs ever since these games existed, on pen and paper. I’m sorry to say, but if you don’t like vertical progression, this entire genre of games is only going to give you grief. Yeah, that’s right, a lot of people in this thread kept arguing over what an MMO is, but forgot that this is an MMORPG.

On a side note, calling people names, claiming that you can’t help them and ignoring them after you lose an argument to them, doesn’t help your case.

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

stale.9785:

I’d love if I could quit for a year, come back, still be in the best equipment. That’s what was advertised – best in slot for everyone, even casuals. As it stands, not only has the old BiS (exotic) been made obsolete, but they admit to having planned further vertical progression through ever-more-powerful infusions.

This means that if real life takes priority for whatever reason, when I come back, I’m behind the curve. This is uncool.

Adding skills, more areas, jumping puzzles, DE’s, dungeons, etc – all of that would be horizontal progression, of which I’m 100% in support of. Adding armour tiers and VP power treadmill? That’s just not cool.

So, to answer the question – yes, I’d love if I could quit for a year, come back, complete whatever new content there was (that didn’t disappear because it was poorly executed temporary content – that’s a different gripe though) and still be in max gear if I decide to pop into WvW or run some dungeons with friends/guildies.

After a year of not playing GW2, I didn’t feel like my character left in exotic items is behind other players. I could still do better than them in PVE.

Still I think that MMORPG is that kind of game, that should be played continously and the longer it can drag you in, the better the game is. I had few games in my life, that I have played for 5+ years.

Bubbles.1047:

Character advancement has been one of the basic elements of RPGs ever since these games existed, on pen and paper. I’m sorry to say, but if you don’t like vertical progression, this entire genre of games is only going to give you grief. Yeah, that’s right, a lot of people in this thread kept arguing over what an MMO is, but forgot that this is an MMORPG.

On a side note, calling people names, claiming that you can’t help them and ignoring them after you lose an argument to them, doesn’t help your case.

Who are you refering to?

Vertical progression is in all games, even in Mario bros, you eat a mushroom and you literally grow vertically. I’m not against vertical progression. I’m against vertical progression through grind. If I could have fit that in the headline I would have.

killcannon.2576:

How do you get players to play? Carrots.

You get people to play by making a fun game.

You keep them playing, when the game play itself is not sufficiently fun to keep them playing, by introducing psychological ploys intended to induce addiction like behavior in the players.

Progression, per the definition of the word, need not (though it can) involve movement toward an objective state of superiority such as increased stats. (example: acquiring a new set of armor whose stats are in no way superior to those of one’s existing armor is progression towards a goal of owning one of every armor skin in the game.)

Obsidian.1328:

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.

Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and is obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?

Ashen.2907:

killcannon.2576:

How do you get players to play? Carrots.

You get people to play by making a fun game.

You keep them playing, when the game play itself is not sufficiently fun to keep them playing, by introducing psychological ploys intended to induce addiction like behavior in the players.

Progression, per the definition of the word, need not (though it can) involve movement toward an objective state of superiority such as increased stats. (example: acquiring a new set of armor whose stats are in no way superior to those of one’s existing armor is progression towards a goal of owning one of every armor skin in the game.)

Was GW2 at release a “fun” game?

If yes, then would you still be playing it more than ten hours a week if they had not added a single thing to it?

And I completely agree with you about progression. They shouldn’t have added blatant stat progression. Game just isn’t suited for it.

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.

Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and are obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?

To be fair, you can’t grind skills in EvE. They are trained one by one, for as long as each tier takes. You don’t even need to be logged in to do it, just that your account is active.

While it’s VP in the sense that you do get stronger over time, it’s not the same as VP that requires active grinding to achieve the progression and therefor doesn’t limit your in game actions (which will mostly be grinding money anyway but for a completely different reason)

Substance E.4852:

killcannon.2576:

Obsidian.1328:

Cannon

And yet, you still haven’t bothered to answer my questions either, why should I bother with yours?

If you think advancing your skills in a game like Eve makes it a VP game, you’re fooling yourself. Why not post that question in the Eve forums and see what response you get.

And yes, casuals chasing carrots. GW2 is the crowning achievement of the carrot-chasing casual. The Achievement system, the mini’s, the dyes, the map completions, the skins, etc…all carrots. The one’s that don’t go after carrots much, unless you count challenge as a carrot, are the pvpers and hard-core gamers.

Bubbles

That’s a very limited definition of rpg. I can log into GW2, role-play for months, and never advance my character in levels if I want. Old-school D&D is just one approach to role-play, there are thousands of ways to do it.

Oh, and I haven’t lost the argument bud. Nor am I ignoring him.

Because you never asked a question? Just wanted to make a couple snarky one liners and not actually be called on it.

Apparently you define a casual as someone who has an inordinate amount of time to spend in game and are obsessively goal oriented , while a hardcore is someone who doesn’t and isn’t. Not sure where you’re getting your definitions. If your idea of EvE as HP is any indication, perhaps from there?

To be fair, you can’t grind skills in EvE. They are trained one by one, for as long as each tier takes. You don’t even need to be logged in to do it, just that your account is active.

While it’s VP in the sense that you do get stronger over time, it’s not the same as VP that requires active grinding to achieve the progression and therefor doesn’t limit your in game actions (which will mostly be grinding money anyway but for a completely different reason)

I agree. It’s a good example of how you can make character progression non grindy and more about choice than repetitive actions. The ships though….ugh.

DeathMetal.8264:

Heck, ever since the game started, and I had enough coins, I have been running on my Lv78 Exotic Berserker gear with Traveller Rune (yes, even before they become pricey). And I mean, ALL of my toons!!

Am I being a problem that drags my team and slow them down? HELL yeah!

Have I been kicked in PuG, be it in WvW, dungeon, FotM or EotM? Well I will be now after posting this knowledge.

Fixed that for you.

Vertical progression is awesome.
Nothing beats playing top notch pvp and and constantly improving (personal progression!) while winning vs better and better opponents each time ……………………….yea GW1 was awesome.

killcannon.2576:

Was GW2 at release a “fun” game?

If yes, then would you still be playing it more than ten hours a week if they had not added a single thing to it?

Yes and yes.

It is additions to the game that led to a reduction in my play time.

Adding to a game need not be a matter of vertical progression. New sights to see, new monsters to kill, new stories to be experienced.

That is not to say that a game cannot, or will not, lose appeal with repetition. At one point in time I averaged 30-40 hours a week playing chess. Eventually I burned out. Giving me a gold star sticker after each match would not have made the game play more fun at a point when I could no longer even bear to look at my chess sets.

Who knows, those gold stars (assuming some value) might have enticed me to continue playing when I wasn’t having fun though, pretty much exactly as I said in my previous post. The carrot is there to encourage people to do something that isn’t sufficiently enjoyable for its own sake.

Ashen.2907:

killcannon.2576:

Was GW2 at release a “fun” game?

If yes, then would you still be playing it more than ten hours a week if they had not added a single thing to it?

Yes and yes.

It is additions to the game that led to a reduction in my play time.

Adding to a game need not be a matter of vertical progression. New sights to see, new monsters to kill, new stories to be experienced.

That is not to say that a game cannot, or will not, lose appeal with repetition. At one point in time I averaged 30-40 hours a week playing chess. Eventually I burned out. Giving me a gold star sticker after each match would not have made the game play more fun at a point when I could no longer even bear to look at my chess sets.

Who knows, those gold stars (assuming some value) might have enticed me to continue playing when I wasn’t having fun though, pretty much exactly as I said in my previous post. The carrot is there to encourage people to do something that isn’t sufficiently enjoyable for its own sake.

Unless that is what people enjoy in and of itself. I would say that the carrot in Chess is both to improve your own mind and to help one better understand others. The enjoyment comes from improving oneself and the challenge from like minded individuals. No?

Because people in this thread keep trying to change the yardstick to fail at making points:

Vertical Progression… is most widely/commonly defined in the gaming industry as gear or level based differences in player ability. See Aion, Tera, Ragnarok Online, World of Warcraft, which make you swap out entire gear sets each patch to retain competitive viability even if you used the same skills.

Horizontal Progression is most widely/commonly defined in the gaming industry as ability/skill/attribute combination based differences in player ability. See GW1 (to some degree), see LOL, see EVE, which made you swap out skill combinations (aka builds) to retain competitive viability even if you used the same gear.

Yes, You may have to UNLOCK said abilities in horizontal games, making them slightly vertical in nature depending one what requirement is placed on acquisition but…

The horizontal games still shy away from gear for power and more towards making the result of combat or competition, be it pve or pvp, a result of “what skills are you using, and how are you using them”, and NOT “what are you wearing, and how much power/critical rate/critical damage/vitality/PVP damage/PVP defense”. That’s where vertical games are.

Horizontal games rely primarily on active skill/experience/combination to show differences in power. Vertical games rely primarily on passive effects, such as gear or level based statistics to show differences in power.

Stop trying to be clever by changing the yardstick, when everyone here has made it pretty clear they’ve played enough MMO’s to know better, RPG based or not.

Also: Any game which shows a degree of power creep which can not be eliminated by using the game’s original development skills wisely, leans toward being a vertical progression game.

Oh… and almost no game is purely vertical or purely horizontal. Even games like mass effect, half life, counter strike, battlefield, etc… have both arguably vertical and horizontal elements.

Enokitake.1742:

Because people in this thread keep trying to change the yardstick to fail at making points:

Vertical Progression… is most widely/commonly defined in the gaming industry as gear or level based differences in player ability. See Aion, Tera, World of Warcraft, which make you swap out entire gear sets each patch to retain competitive viability even if you used the same skills.

Horizontal Progression is most widely/commonly defined in the gaming industry as ability/skill/attribute combination based differences in player ability. See GW1 (to some degree), see LOL, see EVE, which made you swap out skill combinations (aka builds) to retain competitive viability even if you used the same gear.

Yes, You may have to UNLOCK said abilities in horizontal games, making them slightly vertical in nature depending one what requirement is placed on acquisition but…

The horizontal games still shy away from gear for power and more towards making the result of combat or competition, be it pve or pvp, a result of “what skills are you using, and how are you using them”, and NOT “what are you wearing, and how much power/critical rate/critical damage/vitality/PVP damage/PVP defense”. That’s where vertical games are.

Horizontal games rely primarily on active skill/experience/combination to show differences in power. Vertical games rely primarily on passive effects, such as gear or level based statistics to show differences in power.

Stop trying to be clever by changing the yardstick, when everyone here has made it pretty clear they’ve played enough MMO’s to know better, RPG based or not.

Also: Any game which shows a high degree of power creep which can not be eliminated by using the game’s original development skills wisely, leans toward being a vertical progression game.

Sorry, but you’re the one who changed the yard stick.

You’re saying it’s ONLY VP when it’s gear, and NOT VP when it isn’t. Even if both amount to the exact same thing.

If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based.

You gave an example of gear based Vertical progression, which is only a type not it’s entirety.

Whether it is shallow VP or steep is irrelevant.

Enokitake.1742:

Oh… and almost no game is purely vertical or purely horizontal. Even games like mass effect, half life, counter strike, battlefield, etc… have both arguably vertical and horizontal elements.

Yes, they compliment each other.

killcannon.2576:

Sorry, but you’re the one who changed the yard stick.

You’re saying it’s ONLY VP when it’s gear, and NOT VP when it isn’t. Even if both amount to the exact same thing.

If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based.

You gave an example of gear based Vertical progression, which is only a type not it’s entirety.

Whether it is shallow VP or steep is irrelevant.

Wrong. Read again.

I didn’t say its ONLY VP if its gear… I said its VP if its ONLY gear. Unless you’re playing a game where the only factor is what weapon you have and its passive attack power, you’re not playing a purely vertical game. All games have both horizontal/verticle elements.

What defines the category is which one primarily determines the outcome of competition.

" If I need X skill in order to complete content or if X skill makes it easier to complete content and if not everyone has X skill from character creation, that is indeed vertical progression. Just not stat gear based."

You just said EXACTLY, what I said when I typed…

“Yes, You may have to UNLOCK said abilities in horizontal games, making them slightly vertical in nature depending one what requirement is placed on acquisition but…”

So… ? Again, it is which one primarily determines the outcome of competition.

killcannon.2576:

Unless that is what people enjoy in and of itself. I would say that the carrot in Chess is both to improve your own mind and to help one better understand others. The enjoyment comes from improving oneself and the challenge from like minded individuals. No?

I would say that the carrot is not intrinsic to chess, but that people might very well add it just as you describe. Of course there are other carrots available as well (tournament prizes, acclaim, and so on).

In my case the enjoyment came from the game itself. Anything else was a nice bonus, but not why I played the game. I stopped when it was no longer play, but rather work. By “work” I mean something I did because I was being “paid” rather than because I enjoyed doing it.

I suppose a TLDR for my entire point is that a reward provided for doing something I am enjoying anyway adds a bit of spice to an already enjoyable experience. Digital rewards that have no meaning outside of the game are not, however, an enticement to play a game unless the game is fun. If the game is fun the rewards may be a nice bonus, but are not the reason for playing.