Guild Wars 2

Evelynddra.9265:

I think you’re playing the wrong game genre if you don’t want progression. What you, and others, seem to misunderstand is that GW2 isn’t a sandbox game.

Simple yet effective statement. If you dont progression in a game return to “chess, checkers, bridge, baseball, backgammon, Life, four square, volleyball, euchre, hearts, Settlers of Catan, Rook, Sorry, Boggle, Apples to Apples, Uno, Clue, Monopoly, Mousetrap, Yahtzee, Bejeweled, Peggle” because none of these are a RPG or even a video game.

Destai.9603:

VOLKON.1290:

Kevan.8912:

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.
i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

it’s not daily itself the problem for me.
if a guy needs grinding, do it yourself.
do it for a new color or skin or just to make money.
that’s ok.

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.
it’s 5perc stats a very little advantage? or AR?
i don’t care. there is a difference with exotic.
(and AR is quite important for fotm.)

cosmetic upgrades are still allowed and aligned with manifesto.
but not gear treadmill.

You call things a treadmill yet show no indication of actually knowing what a treadmill is. Let’s put it this way… games with actual treadmills (like WoW for example) don’t need to have threads like the CDI currently open now. Why? They have an inherent treadmill to keep players hooked on a false sense of progression.

How is that progression false? How do you define true progression?

The progression is false because it’s simply an illusion. They inflate your power and the raid boss power at the same rate, resulting in a net gain of zero. Look at the older raids and gear… people blow past them these days with generic drop loot and don’t even bother going in them anymore. Only the latest dungeons and raids are valid, and only the gear from them matter due to inflated numbers all around. Net gain will always be zero. The illusion of progression and power. Actually, all that does is obsolete content that once was fun and challenging, leaving it wasted space in the game sitting dead and idle.

True progression (my opinion) is when you grow outwards. You can learn more crafting professions as an example. See more of the world. Take on and beat new content because your abilities with your character grew, not because of an artificial inflation of numbers that ultimately add up to zero. Maybe it does include building a place of your own, then building it up to be something you’re truly proud of. Maybe it’s learning all skills and weapons no matter how long it takes or what paths you follow to get there.

It’s certainly not adding numbers to both sides of the scale and saying “there you go.”.

i know well what mmo are like. it’s not my first.
truth: all mmo rely on treadmill and progress.
(and i still think there’ll be new game mechanics to avoid it.)

simply, all what anet stated about gw2 future was pure rubbish.
what they said was obviously different from what we get now.

don’t care about why they did it. or if it was really feasible in the reality.
or the silly riddles hidden in their statements.
don’t care about marketing.
i’m a customer and a gamer. i bought it because of their promises of a new mmo, different from mass.

is it a bit different? perhaps it is. grind is less intense? if compared to wow, yes.
it is what they induced me to expect? no.
is it a grind? definitely it is.
is it a treadmill? as there is a new tier with better features, of course yes.
for now, it’s the second tier. and i feel it won’t be the last.

that’s all i need to decide gw2 is not for me. not another clone.
i hope all of you will be happy with it.

Torgrim.3642:

Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.

This is what Arenanet were trying to get away from though.

My guess is that Arenanet couldn’t generate enough revenue from the ideas of the manifesto.

Their current strategy is very similar to mobile games and facebook games. Long tedious and boring grinds that can be shortened in exchange for money.

This business model is terrible and doesn’t earn a good reputation amongst passionate gamers. That’s a stain they won’t be able to wash off so easily.

The fact that ‘you don’t need it’ is used to defend ascended gear shows how truly worthless it is from a gameplay perspective. Why would anyone consider it a good thing that pre-release promises were broken for the sake of giving players an objective that is so unworthy of being pursued?

People try to say it needs a grind or people won’t play it. I’ve played over 2.5k hours since launch, none of it was spent grinding. All grinds are simply false gameplay for unskilled people to use as a substitute for what their ineptitude prevents them from achieving legitimately.

TooBz.3065:

re: Crystin Cox, it’s absurd to criticize a B2P game that owes its continued success to gameplay monetization for hiring an experience monetization manager. I believe she was hired because she has experience in bringing in the kind of revenue that GW2 needs in order to continue to run servers and deliver a reasonable profit. She was not a plant, she’s one of the few people who knows how to do this.

Servers need uptime so people can play, uptime isn’t cheap. Also investors and backers need to get some return, so . . . they need to find things to draw people to actually buy gems as opposed to just logging in and leaving.

I’d think if they got some of the concept artists and 3D modelers to work on a rotation of armor skins more often we’d see an increase. Also less complaints about “ascended gear treadmill”, “Scarlet’s Story”, or “asuran punting gambling rings”.

No, wait, that last was something else. Oops.

Seriously, if it played to more cosmetic and general convenience stuff? Might get people to pay for it. Also fun lil romp areas like Queen’s Gauntlet and Tower of Nightmares for people to go work on. Maybe something new in Orr to do. For a change, you know.

And finally, more Mursaat.

I think the generic excuse is….

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear and for the most part we (arenanet) have held true to our vision of the manifesto.

…It’s a shame that GW2 has literally become the Fable of its genre. Way over hyped with a plethora of empty promises.

The manifesto is true – when taken in context and you understand what they’re referring to. A few things are a little exaggerated however.

The manifesto never said that there would be no grind at all. They said that you wouldn’t be forced to grind to experience content. In other MMOs, you have to grind dungeons to do raids and have to grind raids to do further raids, all to just experience the story. In GW2 however, you can experience all content in basic gear.

When Colin talks about grinding in the manifesto, it’s in the context of quests and combat. He’s referring to how you’re forced to grind “kill 10 rats” quests to fully experience the main quest line. In comparison, the personal story doesn’t feature any filler quests and instead, you’re given the freedom to play how you want in between the steps. He further talks about the grind of combat, which could be referring to mob grinding, which some games still force, or combat in general due the difference in play styles of action vs regular combat.

In the written manifesto, they further mention treadmill grinding. Yes, GW2 does technically feature a treadmill, something that has been known months prior to launch (level cap increase), but what they’re referring to is an actual forced treadmill grind as seen in other games. So far, GW2 seems to be on roughly a 2 year treadmill, which is very relaxed compared to what you might see in other active MMOs, where you may see a new tier every few months.

By the time ascended gear is actually required, which may be never because they could always just increase the level cap, it will be easier to get. That was the manifesto’s promise.

For WvW, they have specifically stated that it is not meant to be fair. For ascended gear, they have talked about alternate options a while ago, but never seemed to go anywhere with it. When it comes to actual play, ascended gear is not required unless you’re doing 1vs1, in which case that’s not what WvW was designed for. When it comes to groups vs groups, odds are just as many people aren’t going to have the gear, so it averages out.

Calae.1738:

My guess is that Arenanet couldn’t generate enough revenue from the ideas of the manifesto.

Their current strategy is very similar to mobile games and facebook games. Long tedious and boring grinds that can be shortened in exchange for money.

This business model is terrible and doesn’t earn a good reputation amongst passionate gamers. That’s a stain they won’t be able to wash off so easily.

It’s nothing like mobile games or facebook games I play. And if you want me to name a couple I’ll just list three I don’t play anymore – Puzzle Pirates, The Tribez, and Dungeon Hunter. Throw in Spiral Knights because it reached similar issues.

Here’s the thing. There aren’t pay gates to stay powerful, there aren’t nigh-required continuous funds needing to be spent just to get anywhere, nor hidden % chance to proceed (which can be skipped if you just pay $1.99 …) Heck, it’s not even DDO-style pay-for-extras which is a model I have much less issue with (but still won’t touch).

So to compare GW2 to those sort of games . . . ehhh . . . no. Please don’t, because GW2 actually doesn’t reach into your wallet just so you can play with no hassles. No, instead it says “two hours a day in Frostgorge keeps being broke away”.

They sold out.

TexZero.7910:

I think the generic excuse is….

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear and for the most part we (arenanet) have held true to our vision of the manifesto.

…It’s a shame that GW2 has literally become the Fable of its genre. Way over hyped with a plethora of empty promises.

Basically players like you have your own idea of what the Manifesto meant. So far, I haven’t seen any broken promises, since the Manifesto still holds true to today. And with GW2 being named game of the year in 2013, I’m hard pressed to see how you still think the way you do.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TexZero.7910:

I think the generic excuse is….

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear and for the most part we (arenanet) have held true to our vision of the manifesto.

…It’s a shame that GW2 has literally become the Fable of its genre. Way over hyped with a plethora of empty promises.

Basically players like you have your own idea of what the Manifesto meant. So far, I haven’t seen any broken promises, since the Manifesto still holds true to today. And with GW2 being named game of the year in 2013, I’m hard pressed to see how you still think the way you do.

Really then explain the following quote from the manifesto

“We want combat to be meaningful. We don’t want you going oh i swung my sword, i swung my sword again.” -Colin

Explain how this has been held true in open world combat whatsoever ?

Is open world combat fun that’s completely relative to the player however what i can state is the so called depth of combat that’s “new and innovating” are nothing but words. The combat system fully disregards any play style that isn’t spam auto attack or spam your big burst combo. The combo fields and cross player interactions are utterly disappointing and do not bring anything to a fight.

There’s quite a few instances of quotes like the above that stand out, and that is exactly why we have the novel “CDI” threads. The community is not happy with the direction the game took from what had been described to us.

TexZero.7910:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TexZero.7910:

I think the generic excuse is….

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear and for the most part we (arenanet) have held true to our vision of the manifesto.

…It’s a shame that GW2 has literally become the Fable of its genre. Way over hyped with a plethora of empty promises.

Basically players like you have your own idea of what the Manifesto meant. So far, I haven’t seen any broken promises, since the Manifesto still holds true to today. And with GW2 being named game of the year in 2013, I’m hard pressed to see how you still think the way you do.

Really then explain the following quote from the manifesto

“We want combat to be meaningful. We don’t want you going oh i swung my sword, i swung my sword again.” -Colin

Explain how this has been held true in open world combat whatsoever ?

Is open world combat fun that’s completely relative to the player however what i can state is the so called depth of combat that’s “new and innovating” are nothing but words. The combat system fully disregards any play style that isn’t spam auto attack or spam your big burst combo. The combo fields and cross player interactions are utterly disappointing and do not bring anything to a fight.

There’s quite a few instances of quotes like the above that stand out, and that is exactly why we have the novel “CDI” threads. The community is not happy with the direction the game took from what had been described to us.

I question why you say that of open world considering most of the dungeons currently involve players just stacking on the boss and swinging their (great)swords

TexZero.7910:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

TexZero.7910:

I think the generic excuse is….

Everyone heard what they wanted to hear and for the most part we (arenanet) have held true to our vision of the manifesto.

…It’s a shame that GW2 has literally become the Fable of its genre. Way over hyped with a plethora of empty promises.

Basically players like you have your own idea of what the Manifesto meant. So far, I haven’t seen any broken promises, since the Manifesto still holds true to today. And with GW2 being named game of the year in 2013, I’m hard pressed to see how you still think the way you do.

Really then explain the following quote from the manifesto

“We want combat to be meaningful. We don’t want you going oh i swung my sword, i swung my sword again.” -Colin

Explain how this has been held true in open world combat whatsoever ?

It never will be, unless you’re a class not using swords. Really, why the heck does this not get understood? If you break it down to the most basic level of analysis, there will always be the repetitive actions in combat which make up the basic level of combat. The actions “swing my sword” / “shoot my bow” / “fire my rifle” / “nargle the snarflorf” all pretty much are building blocks and basics which people will always default to if they are the most efficient . . . or the least demanding . . . of options of combat.

For instance, in other games . . . he swung his sword, he swung it again And for a change of pace, sometimes he swings his sword in the other direction too.

But you know this stuff already, and you know what the spirit of the quote is as much as I do. I just mock the literal interpretations of the manifesto because they’re disingenuous.

The problem with the open world combat is the same as it is in other games when you get roughly 5+ people in the same place; tactical thinking starts to be less important, and it becomes less important to pay exact attention to everything going on. Leading to people just going “yawn, okay, autoattack and keep an eye out for when I need to do something else”.

It’s not going away, primarily because here you have events which draw perhaps 30+ people to the spot and they wind up making it (almost) unimportant to pay attention to anything other than “is it dead yet?” and “should I heal?”.

Though, WvW open field combat is definitely a departure from the usual “stand still and swing” people can get trained to do in PvE zergs. So there’s that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The problem with the open world combat is the same as it is in other games when you get roughly 5+ people in the same place; tactical thinking starts to be less important, and it becomes less important to pay exact attention to everything going on. Leading to people just going “yawn, okay, autoattack and keep an eye out for when I need to do something else”.

This is exactly the problem that should have been solved already. I’m not saying they aren’t going too, but what i am saying is for a game that has been out a year it only saw 1 maybe 2 dungeon paths in where stacking is not optimal… Open world is still a stack fest including Teq.

Again auto attack to victory is beyond boring. Those “combo fields” yeah… those could use another looking over as they do generally nothing to provide meaningful combat experience.

TexZero.7910:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The problem with the open world combat is the same as it is in other games when you get roughly 5+ people in the same place; tactical thinking starts to be less important, and it becomes less important to pay exact attention to everything going on. Leading to people just going “yawn, okay, autoattack and keep an eye out for when I need to do something else”.

This is exactly the problem that should have been solved already. I’m not saying they aren’t going too, but what i am saying is for a game that has been out a year it only saw 1 maybe 2 dungeon paths in where stacking is not optimal… Open world is still a stack fest including Teq.

Again auto attack to victory is beyond boring. Those “combo fields” yeah… those could use another looking over as they do generally nothing to provide meaningful combat experience.

You’re not quite getting my point. There just isn’t a solution which won’t be as useful as “just throw more people on it” to the populace :P If it can’t be beaten by just pouring an entire zone worth of people in twenty square feet spamming attacks it’s “too hard to do”.

I’m surprised that the manifesto has never been mentioned until now. I would have expected many long discussions about it. Surprisingly, this seems to be the first.

It died with our dreams.

I have been watching the response with interest, some think the manifesto as i do is nothing like what we have as a game now, i touched on grind as an example, some feel there is no grind you are forced to do, thats fine they feel that way and im happy they got the game as the feel was described in the manifesto.

Other peeps who perhaps venture towards level 50 fracts would maybe point towards the 70 ar needed to do it and the need for ascended items and gear, some of these peeps would perhaps consider it a grind in getting ascended.

There other things from the manifesto that doesn’t hold true, “Everything you loved about gw1” some may think ok where is the dev class or rit or monk, where do i get a sig of capture, where do i get hero’s, i feel the manifesto doesn’t hold true and i still wonder if the dev’s have been asked these questions and what the official response is.

VOLKON.1290:

Destai.9603:

VOLKON.1290:

Kevan.8912:

VOLKON.1290:

Show me where the endless gear grind is in this game and I’ll consider considering that they may have shifted from the ideas presented in the manifesto. Yes, ascended gear itself can be a bit grindy (read: Time consuming) to get. However there is no endless treadmill of tossing away old gear for newer, more powerful gear which is exactly what the manifesto was referring to.

There is no treadmill, as promised. The fact that they’ve stuck to the manifesto in that regards is commendable.

false. it’s a treadmill. and they broke their manifesto. period.
i don’t care if without dailies or monthly there would be less players online.

it’s not daily itself the problem for me.
if a guy needs grinding, do it yourself.
do it for a new color or skin or just to make money.
that’s ok.

that’s not ok: with dailies (or any other grind) you can craft ascended weapons and stuff.
it’s 5perc stats a very little advantage? or AR?
i don’t care. there is a difference with exotic.
(and AR is quite important for fotm.)

cosmetic upgrades are still allowed and aligned with manifesto.
but not gear treadmill.

You call things a treadmill yet show no indication of actually knowing what a treadmill is. Let’s put it this way… games with actual treadmills (like WoW for example) don’t need to have threads like the CDI currently open now. Why? They have an inherent treadmill to keep players hooked on a false sense of progression.

How is that progression false? How do you define true progression?

The progression is false because it’s simply an illusion. They inflate your power and the raid boss power at the same rate, resulting in a net gain of zero. Look at the older raids and gear… people blow past them these days with generic drop loot and don’t even bother going in them anymore. Only the latest dungeons and raids are valid, and only the gear from them matter due to inflated numbers all around. Net gain will always be zero. The illusion of progression and power. Actually, all that does is obsolete content that once was fun and challenging, leaving it wasted space in the game sitting dead and idle.

True progression (my opinion) is when you grow outwards. You can learn more crafting professions as an example. See more of the world. Take on and beat new content because your abilities with your character grew, not because of an artificial inflation of numbers that ultimately add up to zero. Maybe it does include building a place of your own, then building it up to be something you’re truly proud of. Maybe it’s learning all skills and weapons no matter how long it takes or what paths you follow to get there.

It’s certainly not adding numbers to both sides of the scale and saying “there you go.”.

That’s an interesting view. I consider progression to be a few things, all of which are substantiated by some form of measurement. Gaining statistical increases in power is progression – you’re progressing your own in a substantiated manner. I don’t think the deprecation of old gear or content implies illusion – it implies aging. Even in the examples you’ve stated, there is still this deprecation. While I agree that gear based progression doesn’t equate to a holistic character development, I wouldn’t go so far as calling is illusory. At some point, old content becomes old. At some point, something needs to go up in number – be it zones, skills, collections, whatever have you. That’s the idea of progression.

I’d go so far to the say that gear based progression is the most immediately satisfying to a larger number of people. I’m in agreement with you that there are many other dimensions to expand on, and ones that Guild Wars 2 ought to expand on. Yet, so many players are concerned about the reward. A new zone is released, what new gear do I get? A new dungeon, what new gear do I get that? Any systems of progression has to address the validity and gravity of new content and the rewards therein.

In the case of Guild Wars 2, I’d say that ArenaNet has eloquently addressed some of the conundrums surrounding progression. They’ve made laurels more widely obtained – allowing players to revisit old content in a new light.

mesme.5028:

It may appear to look as thou this is a qq thread but it’s not my intention,
The devs look like really nice peeps and im sure they are, they just have a nice way about them and i like them, i wonder thou what actually happened with gw2.

Things from the manifesto are quite the opposite, grind for example, i am sure the devs have been asked this before but idk, why the change? what happened? was it necessary? was the manifesto a ideal to strive for but in reality not really possible?

Does anyone have any links to the devs explaining why the game isn’t like the manifesto?

Again this isn’t a qq thread, i guess they had to make these changes but id like to know why.

The manifesto, while appreciable was ultimately misguided. The manifesto was their naivety made manifest before they learned what a larger MMO had to have to survive. You can’t toss out roles, you can’t escape grind, and you can’t scrap endgame. This is what makes an MMO. They’ve made some nice strides to streamline the roleplaying systems and make things more accessible, but they’ve also created some hollow areas as a result.

They should have committed to adding depth and expanding upon the foundation the first game set- not selling MMO haters an MMO game. That’s just silly.

Gee how long ago since the last manifesto thread, two weeks, tops.

TooBz.3065:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

I don’t understand the logic of that… Treadmill implies never ending, they planned on adding ascended gear very early in the game and are not adding anymore tiers.

Its just seems people like to complain when they can’t be instantly gratified and might have to actually put some time into something. Then proceed to make inflated claims to try to get their way.

Ascended gear is a new addition, the other tiers existed at launch.

You can’t tell if you’re on a path or a treadmill until the ground starts to move. Adding any additional tier may be a lengthening of the path or the start of a treadmill. And really, what’s the difference.

There’s more to it than that.

In the original scheme of things, once you hit 80, you could craft an entire set of exotics for a handful of gold, spend a little more on the TP for it. If that didn’t suit you, you could use karma and get temple exotics, use badges and get wvw exotics, run dungeons and get dungeon exotics, play spvp and use glory for exotics, or even mix and match. You could get the gear in any number of ways, often times quite quickly, and after that, you were done.

There was nothing you were forced to do personally to get exotics, and it did not take long to scrape together the resources to get them. Sure, there were more expensive exotics out there, but they were for looks only, providing no additional stats when compared with cheaply-crafted exotics.

Similarly, legendaries were nothing more than expensive (but in some cases gorgeous) weapon skins. They had no better stats than exotic weapons, and in many cases, they did not have the stats you wanted anyways, so they were transmuted.

Now, it’s different. Ascended gear cannot be bought. You cannot get it with badges, dungeon tokens, karma, or glory.

• You have to craft your armor, so you’re forced to grid your respective crafting profession.
• With weapons, you might get lucky with a drop, but let’s be honest about your chances to get an ascended weapon with the stats you want. Effectively, you have to craft it.
• You have to use laurels for trinkets and amulet.
• You have to run fractals for rings and your back piece.

There is no choice. The materials required are much more expensive and/or time consuming to put together. It’s a grind.

In addition, legendary weapons received stat boots, which now makes them BIS items rather than shiny weapon skins.

And, as TooBz said: ascended gear was the only tier added after release. Originally, there were no plans for anything beyond exotic gear. That changed. There is every reason to expect that additional levels of gear will be added in the future.

VOLKON.1290:

The progression is false because it’s simply an illusion. They inflate your power and the raid boss power at the same rate, resulting in a net gain of zero.

I think that gaining in power so that you are capable of overcoming increasingly greater challenges is a pretty solid definition of progression in the context of a game.

ATMAvatar.5749:

In addition, legendary weapons received stat boots, which now makes them BIS items rather than shiny weapon skins.

They were the BIS items before addition of Ascended as well though. So I don’t really see the issue with that specifically.
It would have been a major issue if they had NOT been buffed up to be BIS when a stronger tier was released however, seeing how much time and/or gold they cost.

DarcShriek.5829:

I’m surprised that the manifesto has never been mentioned until now. I would have expected many long discussions about it. Surprisingly, this seems to be the first.

Very true, also that the OP has not mentioned it in passing before is quite a shock.

lordkrall.7241:

ATMAvatar.5749:

In addition, legendary weapons received stat boots, which now makes them BIS items rather than shiny weapon skins.

They were the BIS items before addition of Ascended as well though. So I don’t really see the issue with that specifically.
It would have been a major issue if they had NOT been buffed up to be BIS when a stronger tier was released however, seeing how much time and/or gold they cost.

Actually, they were the equal of exotics at launch. Now, legendaries, while having the same stat points as Ascended, are better due to the ability to switch stats.

ATMAvatar.5749:

TooBz.3065:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

I don’t understand the logic of that… Treadmill implies never ending, they planned on adding ascended gear very early in the game and are not adding anymore tiers.

Its just seems people like to complain when they can’t be instantly gratified and might have to actually put some time into something. Then proceed to make inflated claims to try to get their way.

Ascended gear is a new addition, the other tiers existed at launch.

You can’t tell if you’re on a path or a treadmill until the ground starts to move. Adding any additional tier may be a lengthening of the path or the start of a treadmill. And really, what’s the difference.

There’s more to it than that.

In the original scheme of things, once you hit 80, you could craft an entire set of exotics for a handful of gold, spend a little more on the TP for it. If that didn’t suit you, you could use karma and get temple exotics, use badges and get wvw exotics, run dungeons and get dungeon exotics, play spvp and use glory for exotics, or even mix and match. You could get the gear in any number of ways, often times quite quickly, and after that, you were done.

There was nothing you were forced to do personally to get exotics, and it did not take long to scrape together the resources to get them. Sure, there were more expensive exotics out there, but they were for looks only, providing no additional stats when compared with cheaply-crafted exotics.

Similarly, legendaries were nothing more than expensive (but in some cases gorgeous) weapon skins. They had no better stats than exotic weapons, and in many cases, they did not have the stats you wanted anyways, so they were transmuted.

Now, it’s different. Ascended gear cannot be bought. You cannot get it with badges, dungeon tokens, karma, or glory.

• You have to craft your armor, so you’re forced to grid your respective crafting profession.
• With weapons, you might get lucky with a drop, but let’s be honest about your chances to get an ascended weapon with the stats you want. Effectively, you have to craft it.
• You have to use laurels for trinkets and amulet.
• You have to run fractals for rings and your back piece.

There is no choice. The materials required are much more expensive and/or time consuming to put together. It’s a grind.

In addition, legendary weapons received stat boots, which now makes them BIS items rather than shiny weapon skins.

And, as TooBz said: ascended gear was the only tier added after release. Originally, there were no plans for anything beyond exotic gear. That changed. There is every reason to expect that additional levels of gear will be added in the future.

ColinJohanson.2394:

You won’t see legendary armor any time soon, you will see Ascended Armor in 2013 for sure though, yes.

Perhaps not soon as Colin says but we will yes.

mesme.5028:

Perhaps not soon as Colin says but we will yes.

Well, it can go pretty easily along with “in the future” being a nigh infinite span of time moving onward from right now until whenever things decide to stop existing entirely . . .

Yeah, it’s a safe bet to say “sometime in the future we will see a new tier”.

Torgrim.3642:

Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.

“If you love MMOs, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2”
Mike O’Brien

Kevael.3589:

Torgrim.3642:

Guild Wars 2 needs some form of grind sadly like every other MMO for the simple fact if there is no grind whatso ever then you’ll play it like a singleplayer game til you beat it then move on to another game.

“If you love MMOs, you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2, and if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2”
Mike O’Brien

Well he’s not wrong.

mesme.5028:

It may appear to look as thou this is a qq thread but it’s not my intention,
The devs look like really nice peeps and im sure they are, they just have a nice way about them and i like them, i wonder thou what actually happened with gw2.

Things from the manifesto are quite the opposite, grind for example, i am sure the devs have been asked this before but idk, why the change? what happened? was it necessary? was the manifesto a ideal to strive for but in reality not really possible?

Does anyone have any links to the devs explaining why the game isn’t like the manifesto?

Again this isn’t a qq thread, i guess they had to make these changes but id like to know why.

there is no manifesto. /waves hand like a jedi

This is a scenario from a personal experience between myself and my social circle:

• Guild Wars 2 between Launch and 2012-2013 break.
  • All of my friends that left GW2 a year ago left because they didn’t feel GW2 had a good sense of progression.
  • I kept playing because I was happy, I had several exotic sets for each build and had endless replayable content with WvW.

• GW2 introduces vertical progression:
  • My friends aren’t coming back (They are happily playing FFXIV)
  • I’m leaving on 4-4-14 (Waiting for ESO) and no longer spending $$ on this title.

I’m sure people will still be playing GW2 but from my experience they are harming their game and they are not going to get these players back, not only that they are pushing players like me out the door

Calae.1738:

My guess is that Arenanet couldn’t generate enough revenue from the ideas of the manifesto.

Their current strategy is very similar to mobile games and facebook games. Long tedious and boring grinds that can be shortened in exchange for money.

This business model is terrible and doesn’t earn a good reputation amongst passionate gamers. That’s a stain they won’t be able to wash off so easily.

Very well put.

This topic is gonna get deleted as soon as the mods come back from their holidays.

Zanshin.5379:

This topic is gonna get deleted as soon as the mods come back from their holidays.

Nah, they like giving a place for the people who constantly repeat themselves. Keeps them off the streets and someplace warm.

Ashen.2907:

VOLKON.1290:

The progression is false because it’s simply an illusion. They inflate your power and the raid boss power at the same rate, resulting in a net gain of zero.

I think that gaining in power so that you are capable of overcoming increasingly greater challenges is a pretty solid definition of progression in the context of a game.

That’s just it though… the gain in power has nothing to do with overcoming the new challenges. They could add the new challenges at the same power scale as the previous and you’d still have new challenges to overcome (without making obsolete the prior challenges). That’s the illusion of progression. ‘Congrats! You’ve earned gear that makes you 20% more powerful! Now meet Fluffy the Vampire Dragon Lich, who is 20% more powerful than the guys you just beat to become 20% more powerful! Yay!’

This illusory progression does two things. It deludes the player into thinking they’re more powerful when relative to the new content they’re not, and it funnels people through very narrow paths of content progression rendering prior content obsolete and barren. Neither of these is a good thing.

VOLKON.1290:

Ashen.2907:

VOLKON.1290:

The progression is false because it’s simply an illusion. They inflate your power and the raid boss power at the same rate, resulting in a net gain of zero.

I think that gaining in power so that you are capable of overcoming increasingly greater challenges is a pretty solid definition of progression in the context of a game.

That’s just it though… the gain in power has nothing to do with overcoming the new challenges. They could add the new challenges at the same power scale as the previous and you’d still have new challenges to overcome (without making obsolete the prior challenges). That’s the illusion of progression. ‘Congrats! You’ve earned gear that makes you 20% more powerful! Now meet Fluffy the Vampire Dragon Lich, who is 20% more powerful than the guys you just beat to become 20% more powerful! Yay!’

This illusory progression does two things. It deludes the player into thinking they’re more powerful when relative to the new content they’re not, and it funnels people through very narrow paths of content progression rendering prior content obsolete and barren. Neither of these is a good thing.

and..what’s your final idea about it?
mine is that every kind of grinding equipment is just a waste of time, a filler for the missing content…endgame or not.

also tiers in gw2 are illusory progress…still it’s a necessary progress if you want to compete on a par with top players (it’s not my situation) or in high level fractals.
as in other posts say, the best rational of your words would be that if don’t want any illusory progression, by the end of leveling you should instantly be able to face everything, and just concentrate on your knowledge of combat, best build, team tactics, and every tot. weeks on a new part of map, or a new event, or a new customization.
that’s horizontal progression.

everywhere there’s a BiS grind, it’s the same.

Kevan.8912:

and..what’s your final idea about it?

mine is that every kind of grinding equipment is just a waste of time, a filler for the missing content…endgame or not.

^^ The essence of MMO’s ^^

The addition of a single tier does not a treadmill make. It does set the precedent for a treadmill; however, they have assured us that they do not want to fall into that trap. That does not mean that there will ‘never’ be a new tier, but I think we can be reasonably assured that there won’t be one anytime soon. Still, there is hope after the VP CDI that they take our plight to heart and tell us that ascended is the plateau, and tiers stop there. We’ll see.

Yes, ascended gear takes no little amount of effort to obtain; however, it’s also not necessary. You can do WvW in exotics. You can do fractals with just the trinkets you presently have. Everything in PvE can be done in rares (I know, I’ve done it, several times).

I do agree that this tier goes against Colin’s statement that all players should easily have BiS gear by lvl 80; however, that’s because we asked for it. Maybe not you or me specifically, but when this game launched, it was loud and clear (especially on here) that another ‘harder’ tier of armor was desired. Exotics were “laughably easy” to get, which displeased a very large group of players. Obviously the voices crying ‘no more gear tiers’ were not loud enough, and were drowned out by the louder majority in this instance.

Kevan.8912:

and..what’s your final idea about it?
mine is that every kind of grinding equipment is just a waste of time, a filler for the missing content…endgame or not.

also tiers in gw2 are illusory progress…still it’s a necessary progress if you want to compete on a par with top players (it’s not my situation) or in high level fractals.
as in other posts say, the best rational of your words would be that if don’t want any illusory progression, by the end of leveling you should instantly be able to face everything, and just concentrate on your knowledge of combat, best build, team tactics, and every tot. weeks on a new part of map, or a new event, or a new customization.
that’s horizontal progression.

everywhere there’s a BiS grind, it’s the same.

I’m perfectly fine with the time investment (what you’re inaccurately calling “grind”) involved for ascended gear. It’s necessary… if everyone got it overnight then the next day they’d be demanding more. If you wish to invest the time and effort you can get something marginally better by the numbers, your choice, no requirements or demands to do so. (Unlike a game like WoW, where you’re required to continually replace the gear you spent months acquiring in order to keep up.)

Now, if they turned it into an actual gear grind where we were replacing the ascended with a more powerful version every few months… that would lose me right there. I like the “finality” of ascended as far as power goes.

On the other hand, what would be perfectly acceptable is adding Legendary gear, provided it has the same stats as ascended. That can take a lot longer for all I care and will give another optional horizontally progressive path for people to take if they choose to do so.

Here is my standard response for any thread that contains the word “manifesto”:

Developers write manifestos because Developers are gamers. Because Developers are gamers, they want the same things we want.

Publishers bankroll games because games are profit engines. Because Publishers are interested in profit engines, they force Developers to disregard the manifestos if they think the ideas are too financially risky (i.e. not proven to be extremely profitable).

mtpelion.4562:

Here is my standard response for any thread that contains the word “manifesto”:

Developers write manifestos because Developers are gamers. Because Developers are gamers, they want the same things we want.

Publishers bankroll games because games are profit engines. Because Publishers are interested in profit engines, they force Developers to disregard the manifestos if they think the ideas are too financially risky (i.e. not proven to be extremely profitable).

If you’re going to try and claim that the manifesto was somehow disregarded you should provide some sort of evidence backing it up. Arguing by assertion really isn’t good enough.

VOLKON.1290:

If you’re going to try and claim that the manifesto was somehow disregarded you should provide some sort of evidence backing it up. Arguing by assertion really isn’t good enough.

My argument is that a manifesto is not a contract, because it is written by the workers, not the suits who tell the workers what to do. Developers are like us, Publishers are not.

Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality, you can be sure that the Publishers in suits are behind it, not the Developers (who wrote it because they believe in it).

for me, manifesto is a not a contract….(wait…well indeed it is, for the customer they sold the game to. Mislesding advertising i’d call it)
well, however it’s sign of reliability.

i believe you it could depend on publishers’ influence.
but unfortunately the result is the same.
it s not my duty to understand them. not any reverse psychology or philosophy,
it s theirs to suit the customers

VOLKON.1290:

mtpelion.4562:

Here is my standard response for any thread that contains the word “manifesto”:

Developers write manifestos because Developers are gamers. Because Developers are gamers, they want the same things we want.

Publishers bankroll games because games are profit engines. Because Publishers are interested in profit engines, they force Developers to disregard the manifestos if they think the ideas are too financially risky (i.e. not proven to be extremely profitable).

If you’re going to try and claim that the manifesto was somehow disregarded you should provide some sort of evidence backing it up. Arguing by assertion really isn’t good enough.

Truth is, GW2 is a casual game. If the TP could be reigned in, people wouldn’t have to grind so much and just casually play the game to get everything they want. Its the folks trying to make something more out of GW2 than what it is that are messing up the game.

Think for a moment about why folks complain in game. Progession is the biggest complaint, because we’ve all “arrived” at the coastline of the game and are weeping, for there are no more worlds to conquer. Anet threw in some “docks” so people could get a little further out into the ocean, but… without boats, nobody’s gaining much in the way of ground.

Second biggest complaint, too much grinding involved for gearing/studding out with the best of what IS available to work towards in game. What are we grinding? Mats and gold. We can do dungeons for only so long before you are really pushing up hard against the “grinding stone” and the game stops being fun. We can do events and WvW, but neither really pay out much.

Why does it take so much money to do things in game? The player dominated TP. Even commander tags are only 100G. Besides that, what else can you pay for in game that tops over 100G except maybe T3 sets? Nothing. It may cost karma or laurels, but nothing REALLY depends on lots of gold aside from what players have done to the market.

Imagine this. You add the total costs for your legendary and end up, precursor included around 500G, not including the farming you’ve done for mats. That is still MUCH more expensive than “just gearing up” and allows you to focus on a still target with a clear path to getting what you want. Crafting your ascended set? If all the mats were kept around or under one silver a piece, would you being grinding very much at all? Nope. You are able to get what you want and still enjoy the crap out of the game for the time you spend towards it without feeling like you are just endlessly grinding…. and you can step away for a time and return, not feeling like you have to grind a ton more for new content, but that you can ease into it, relax and play it for what it is… not for what you can turn it into if you gorge on it.

You want the above? Set time limits for buy/sell orders on the TP. Set the TP up to be used as a mat dump for some money, but not so easily cornered or controlled by players that folks have to grind themselves silly to do what they want to in game. It is, after all, just a game.

mtpelion.4562:

VOLKON.1290:

If you’re going to try and claim that the manifesto was somehow disregarded you should provide some sort of evidence backing it up. Arguing by assertion really isn’t good enough.

My argument is that a manifesto is not a contract, because it is written by the workers, not the suits who tell the workers what to do. Developers are like us, Publishers are not.

Ergo, when there is a disparity between the manifesto and reality, you can be sure that the Publishers in suits are behind it, not the Developers (who wrote it because they believe in it).

Mmm, no, I think there is an issue about developers opening their mouths about their games before they actually face reality.

(Exhibit A: John Romero’s Daikatana.)

I think there is a point when developers start going from concept to alpha testing where they discover some things are present for a reason. Not dirty money-grubbing reasons either, but play experience reasons. (Not everything goes back to Gold for Gems for Cash, my friends.)

Some limits and methods exist for a reason. D&D figured this out ages ago, and so did M:TG.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, no, I think there is an issue about developers opening their mouths about their games before they actually face reality.

(Exhibit A: John Romero’s Daikatana.)

I think there is a point when developers start going from concept to alpha testing where they discover some things are present for a reason. Not dirty money-grubbing reasons either, but play experience reasons. (Not everything goes back to Gold for Gems for Cash, my friends.)

Some limits and methods exist for a reason. D&D figured this out ages ago, and so did M:TG.

You can’t blame them though. Developers come up with ideas that they get excited about and want to share the ideas with their fellow gamers (who get equally excited). As for things being present for a “reason”, believe me, that “reason” can always, ALWAYS, be boiled down to “the publisher says we can’t spend the <insert ‘time’ and/or ’money’> to make our vision a reality, thus we must reuse <insert old method>”.

Disappointment is the natural child of artists having their creativity limited by stock values.

mtpelion.4562:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mmm, no, I think there is an issue about developers opening their mouths about their games before they actually face reality.

(Exhibit A: John Romero’s Daikatana.)

I think there is a point when developers start going from concept to alpha testing where they discover some things are present for a reason. Not dirty money-grubbing reasons either, but play experience reasons. (Not everything goes back to Gold for Gems for Cash, my friends.)

Some limits and methods exist for a reason. D&D figured this out ages ago, and so did M:TG.

You can’t blame them though. Developers come up with ideas that they get excited about and want to share the ideas with their fellow gamers (who get equally excited). As for things being present for a “reason”, believe me, that “reason” can always, ALWAYS, be boiled down to “the publisher says we can’t spend the <insert ‘time’ and/or ‘money’> to make our vision a reality, thus we must reuse <insert old method>”.

Disappointment is the natural child of artists having their creativity limited by stock values.

I do blame them, if we have to dispassionately discuss where the fault lies. It’s not always the suits/publishers who are the reason things don’t make it into games. Sometimes the developers just can’t make it work.

I don’t, however, mean them any actual enmity for this. Things don’t always make it from “I want” to “I have”.

And “that reason” argument doesn’t exactly cover how this sort of thing happens in indie games too, where some idea might be talked about and it doesn’t make it in as nicely as it might have been thought to. Or games which were ideas which just didn’t pan out or go anywhere.