Guild Wars 2

Teege.4623:

Things change. Namely change what you have to, to bring in the money.

“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”
-Colin Johanson

Well “should” not “will”. And even in the original game that didn’t happen unless you were incredibly lucky or happened to ding 80 right after/during a Temple event chain.

Just so everyone is clear, this is what a grind actually looks like.

Gadgetzan Reputation Grind

Wasbunny.6531:

Just so everyone is clear, this is what a grind actually looks like.

Gadgetzan Reputation Grind

Well. There is one thing which is worse from this. Something called champion farm.

Kevan.8912:

Lynne.8416:

The manifesto was released in like 2010 right? The game wasn’t even released until 2012. The game went through changes between beta and release, and the game has made significant changes since release. Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game. The manifesto was their intention for the game in 2010. We are now in 2014 and I expect more changes to come. 2 years from now the game could be totally different from today’s version.

mmmmh, no.
alpha/beta changes…is more about technical issues of a game, servers, or new maps, or little (not that little, but not substantial) changes, like timers cooldowns interface AI etc

manifesto is more than it: it’s the “philosophy” behind a game. it’s also about the players’ subpopulation it is advertised for.

There’s also the fact that most of the marketing and dev statements about the game almost up until release reflected that philosophy.

Awe.1096:

Wasbunny.6531:

Just so everyone is clear, this is what a grind actually looks like.

Gadgetzan Reputation Grind

Well. There is one thing which is worse from this. Something called champion farm.

Only one?

I present the following out of the history of MMOs I’ve actually played and subjected myself to:

EverQuest – the “heck levels” every 5 after hitting 30. Something which was quietly denied for a while until it was admitted to exist, and only fixed LONG after most players were past them.
Ultima Online – Grandmastering any skill. Doubly true for the crafting ones, because they also required grinding for materials.
EverQuest – The Alternate Advancement experience grind. Sometimes referred to on the server I played as “Kael Arena Farm”.
Wartune – Nigh anything which could be called “advancement”.
The Realm – Let’s find “The Wrath”, and then get it enchanted with permanent bonuses. Extra points for those enchantments having the (increasing with each one) potential to disintegrate your weapon.
Minecraft – “On a Rail”
Guild Wars 1 – Grandmaster Cartography. Vanquishing.

And in the same stripe, any faction grind in old EverQuest, ESPECIALLY if from KOS status. Notable in there being one zone in which to efficiently raise most of the guard factions on the mainland continent and only so much farm to go around.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Teege.4623:

Things change. Namely change what you have to, to bring in the money.

“Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.”
-Colin Johanson

Well “should” not “will”. And even in the original game that didn’t happen unless you were incredibly lucky or happened to ding 80 right after/during a Temple event chain.

At least 3 world map gives you 2 exotic for completion guaranteed. So it was pretty much “will”. Any way to get guaranteed ascended now ?

WRay.2391:

At least 3 world map gives you 2 exotic for completion guaranteed. So it was pretty much “will”. Any way to get guaranteed ascended now ?

Not everyone is doing World Completion.
And you are most likely level 80 quite a bit of time before you finish the last of the maps for world completion. And even so said exotics might not even be useful for your profession/playstyle.

And yes, there are many ways to get guaranteed ascended items. Actually every single piece of Ascended Gear have a guaranteed method of obtainment.

An accountant, a game dev and a manifesto are shipwrecked on an island.

The manifesto goes “GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

The accountant coughs and at the same time mumbles under his breath “Gem Shop!”

The game dev points to a ship on the horizon and say “Look! We are saved here comes the Titanic!”

Lynne.8416:

Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game.

Anet seems to disagree with you as the manifesto is still present on the official GW2 site.

Ashen.2907:

Lynne.8416:

Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game.

Anet seems to disagree with you as the manifesto is still present on the official GW2 site.

Or it’s still there because it’s press release material and removing it wouldn’t mean as much as leaving it up? Especially if, kitten many claim now, they’re just pretending it never existed.

I mean, if you’re (not the quoted poster but just in general those going “liars!!”) going to make them out to be such atrocious liars, why expect them to remove it?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ashen.2907:

Lynne.8416:

Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game.

Anet seems to disagree with you as the manifesto is still present on the official GW2 site.

Or it’s still there because it’s press release material and removing it wouldn’t mean as much as leaving it up? Especially if, kitten many claim now, they’re just pretending it never existed.

I mean, if you’re (not the quoted poster but just in general those going “liars!!”) going to make them out to be such atrocious liars, why expect them to remove it?

I expect that the decision to not take the manifesto down is because doing so would likely be seen by some portion of the community as tacit admission that the manifesto was dead. As confirmation that the game had not lived up to its ideals.

Regardless, the manifesto is still part of the GW2 official site and so the claim that it is no longer applicable seems questionable.

VOLKON.1290:

MMOs don’t “end” in that regards, therefore you need progression instead of “an objective”.

I beg to differ. In ANY mmo out there…you get to max level…get all the top rated gear…you’ve run all the content….isn’t that the end? You’ve explored all the maps. Every quest? Check. I can’t think of a better definition of the word “end”. What are the top people in this game doing? Running the same “endgame” content over and over, right? Doing things they’ve done before, and quite often many times before. If that isn’t grind, treadmill, and reaching “the end”, I don’t know what is.

What really confuses me is why so many people are afraid of it? Why so many people just toss a good game aside and move to the next quick fix?

I /still/ have Warzone 2100 installed on my PC. Ditto Populous: The beginning. Same deal with Beyond Good and Evil. Why? They’re /good games/. I actually /enjoy/ playing them, regardless of whether or not I know every line, every nook and cranny, every little trick. THIS is what makes a good game, not what gaming companies claim nowadays, and certainly not what this game provides. (So far.)

mergi.1407:

An accountant, a game dev and a manifesto are shipwrecked on an island.

The manifesto goes “GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

The accountant coughs and at the same time mumbles under his breath “Gem Shop!”

The game dev points to a ship on the horizon and say “Look! We are saved here comes the Titanic!”

Gem Shop isn’t a “trap”, it’s an income model. There was a time when nearly all MMOs were monthly subscriptions. So if not subscription or cash shop what do you suggest? Tip jar?

They advertised this game based on several things. The manifesto was one five minute video. That’s what it was. It’s been misinterpreted and lines from it are taken out of context to try to prove specific points. People have ignored the clarification posted three days after it, explaining some confusion. People have ignored the two years of stuff released afterwards explaining everything in much greater detail.

If you look at the number of times in the “advertising” words like vertical progression were mentioned, you’d find that the game was advertised on dynamic events, personal story, and active combat.

The other stuff was side bar stuff that if it was important to an individual they focused on it to the exclusion of all else. But it wasn’t what the game was advertised on.

Advertising focus is such that the more times something is mentioned, the more a company talks about it, the more important it is to the product. There are so many discussions around dynamic events and how they work and how they’re made and why they’re better.

The manifesto is a 3 year old 5 minute video. If people watched that and ignored everything said after that it’s not Anet’s fault.

Behellagh.1468:

mergi.1407:

An accountant, a game dev and a manifesto are shipwrecked on an island.

The manifesto goes “GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

The accountant coughs and at the same time mumbles under his breath “Gem Shop!”

The game dev points to a ship on the horizon and say “Look! We are saved here comes the Titanic!”

Gem Shop isn’t a “trap”, it’s an income model. There was a time when nearly all MMOs were monthly subscriptions. So if not subscription or cash shop what do you suggest? Tip jar?

everyone agrees that a mmo game, as provides new content and servers up, needs money.
ok with pets, minis, powerups, skins and other funny stuff. there’s no real impact on the gameplay.
however, earning because the game frustrates the casual player, forcing them to buy gold and slots, is despicable.

about manifesto: i’m sure it’s online ALSO because it’s still valid.
simply, anet preferred to “ignore” it because of money. that’s economy

and many players are going to “ignore” gw2 because it’s no longer what they wanted to play to. that’s economy as well.
The customer is king.

Vayne.8563:

If you look at the number of times in the “advertising” words like vertical progression were mentioned, you’d find that the game was advertised on dynamic events, personal story, and active combat.

The other stuff was side bar stuff that if it was important to an individual they focused on it to the exclusion of all else. But it wasn’t what the game was advertised on.

side stuff? no grind and no vertical progression?
uhm. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/
to me, it seems a main feature they advertised.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer

totally disagree with you Vayne.
it’s not players fault to stick to anet’s word.
it’s anet’s, as they revealed unreliable.

But if people only listen to a single video and then ignore all those articles and stuff clarifying things during the YEARS between Manifesto release and game release it IS the players fault.

lordkrall.7241:

But if people only listen to a single video and then ignore all those articles and stuff clarifying things during the YEARS between Manifesto release and game release it IS the players fault.

i didn’t find any other article about gw2 designing guidelines.

and…i think that a direct anet post in the thread or an official new thread could be very interesting.
as “manifesto is not valid because it’s too old”, i’d like to know what they think.
not their explicits projects. just what they think NOW about grind and so on.
i’m afraid i already know what they want to do…and i’m afraid also they won’t say a single word about it, before it’s too late for player to oppose.

Kevan.8912:

Behellagh.1468:

mergi.1407:

An accountant, a game dev and a manifesto are shipwrecked on an island.

The manifesto goes “GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

The accountant coughs and at the same time mumbles under his breath “Gem Shop!”

The game dev points to a ship on the horizon and say “Look! We are saved here comes the Titanic!”

Gem Shop isn’t a “trap”, it’s an income model. There was a time when nearly all MMOs were monthly subscriptions. So if not subscription or cash shop what do you suggest? Tip jar?

everyone agrees that a mmo game, as provides new content and servers up, needs money.
ok with pets, minis, powerups, skins and other funny stuff. there’s no real impact on the gameplay.
however, earning because the game frustrates the casual player, forcing them to buy gold and slots, is despicable.

about manifesto: i’m sure it’s online ALSO because it’s still valid.
simply, anet preferred to “ignore” it because of money. that’s economy

and many players are going to “ignore” gw2 because it’s no longer what they wanted to play to. that’s economy as well.
The customer is king.

Vayne.8563:

If you look at the number of times in the “advertising” words like vertical progression were mentioned, you’d find that the game was advertised on dynamic events, personal story, and active combat.

The other stuff was side bar stuff that if it was important to an individual they focused on it to the exclusion of all else. But it wasn’t what the game was advertised on.

side stuff? no grind and no vertical progression?
uhm. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/
to me, it seems a main feature they advertised.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer

totally disagree with you Vayne.
it’s not players fault to stick to anet’s word.
it’s anet’s, as they revealed unreliable.

You’ve produced two links from three years worth of advertising. Three years. You can disagree till the cows come home, but it doesn’t make you right.

More to the point,. the video manifesto, which started this whole thing, is being misinterpreted. Anyone can pull a single line out of a document and make it seem like it’s saying something else. “We don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2.”

The problem here is the definition of grind. People are acting like there’s only one definition, when in fact, the original definition of grind was to kill monsters to level. That’s what grinding was. Not farming. Grinding.

And since the first part of that same paragraph DEFINES what grind is “In most games you have this terrible grind to get to the fun stuff”, how does that equate in your mind to gear or gear grind or gear progression.

To further add to this Colin came straight out afterwards, multiple times at conventions and in interviews and explained EXACTLY what that meant. Do you know the example he gave? The shadow behemoth. They put really cool encounters in low zones.

The paragraph ends with the line “we want to change the way people view COMBAT”. Not view gearing up. Not view farming mats. Combat.

He’s talking about just having fun playing in the world and not having to rush through leveling to get to max level to raid. How do I know this. Because he said it.

You can post that link from today till the end of time, it doesn’t change the fact that the grind being referred to is clearly defined in the document.

The manifesto is not only valid, it’s entirely true.

Unlike traditional MMOs, in GW2 you are not forced to grind to experience the content, where grinding is being forced to repeat something multiple times that you don’t find fun. In traditional MMOs you are forced to grind at some point, whether it be to grind out gear to experience the next tier of content or to level, including grind quests (kill 10 rats).

They have never said that there will be no grinding nor vertical progression. Even when tunnel visioning “We don’t want you to grind” that doesn’t mean there will be none at all, just that they don’t want to force it. Vertical progression was hinted at almost a year prior to launch when Colin said they would like to increase the level cap.

mesme.5028:

What happened to the manifesto?

Greed happened.

morrolan.9608:

Kevan.8912:

Lynne.8416:

The manifesto was released in like 2010 right? The game wasn’t even released until 2012. The game went through changes between beta and release, and the game has made significant changes since release. Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game. The manifesto was their intention for the game in 2010. We are now in 2014 and I expect more changes to come. 2 years from now the game could be totally different from today’s version.

mmmmh, no.
alpha/beta changes…is more about technical issues of a game, servers, or new maps, or little (not that little, but not substantial) changes, like timers cooldowns interface AI etc

manifesto is more than it: it’s the “philosophy” behind a game. it’s also about the players’ subpopulation it is advertised for.

There’s also the fact that most of the marketing and dev statements about the game almost up until release reflected that philosophy.

This statement you’ve made is demonstrably false.

Most of the statesments the devs made about the game prior to release didn’t mention vertical progression or gear grind at all. Only an tiny tiny percentage of dev quotes talked about that, and almost always only in response to a question asked by someone.

Devs spent countless hours talking about dynamic events and personal story and combat. The amount of time devs even mentioned this were miniscule by comparison.

It’s easy enough to do the research if you don’t believe me.

rogerwilko.6895:

Greed happened.

Or maybe the want to actually survive happened?
It is extremely unlikely that the game (and therefore also the company) would survive more than a year if they only ever did exactly as people interpreted the Manifesto.

MercyKilling.8519:

VOLKON.1290:

MMOs don’t “end” in that regards, therefore you need progression instead of “an objective”.

I beg to differ. In ANY mmo out there…you get to max level…get all the top rated gear…you’ve run all the content….isn’t that the end? You’ve explored all the maps. Every quest? Check. I can’t think of a better definition of the word “end”. What are the top people in this game doing? Running the same “endgame” content over and over, right? Doing things they’ve done before, and quite often many times before. If that isn’t grind, treadmill, and reaching “the end”, I don’t know what is.

Well, no, that’s not the end… at least not for GW2. WvW is a new match every week, I’ve been doing that for ages now. Living Story is a continual influx of new content, often to the point that some people complain that there’s too much new stuff. WvW certainly isn’t a treadmill in any sense of it, any more than the NFL is for example. Treadmill refers to the constant cycle of gearing up then replacing the gear with new gear as new content releases, usually every few months or so.

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

VOLKON.1290:

….and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

it’s a treadmill also if your old armor is sufficient, but not the BiS…especially if you got it after hundred hours of farming/grinding…and if it happens more times than once.
still think that this is not a treadmill right now?
ok, it’s just 2nd step.
let’s wait for the next tier…just a matter of time.
we do know there will be a new cap level, and of course more new equipment.
this is the path this game is going to walk.
right interpretation or not, manifesto or not.

the important thing for us, just “casuals”, is the knowledge of it.
there will be gear progression again? yes or not.
but anet is still trying to keep a foot in both camps.
they won’t reveal nothing until patch/expansion/etc is already up.

Colin Johanson spoke about ANet’s manifesto leading up to and during GW2’s beta program in early 2012.

In June 2012 Nexon invested in NCSoft and became NCSoft’s largest shareholder.

Around this time Crystin Cox, perhaps best known for her work at Nexon with Maplestory’s cash shop, became GW2’s monetization manager.

Is GW2 becoming more like GW1 or Maplestory?

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

The manifesto (or the spirit behind it, for those of you who hide behind semantics when defending this game) got sold down the river in exchange for quick and easy profits. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mireles Lore.5942:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Pretty much this exactly. When you hit 80 you can very easily slip on a whole set of exotics and take on the world quite well, and you have the option if you wish to spend the time and efforts to go for ascended. As long as ascended doesn’t get overshadowed by a “higher” power tier you’ll never have the treadmill. Let Legendary armors come, and let them have the same stats as ascended, other features (switch on the fly stats for example) and take longer to get… that would be wonderful and completely against the treadmill philosophy due to it being a choice instead of a requirement for progression.

Focusing on the manifesto is probably barking up the wrong tree. The manifesto is somewhat vague. Discussing subjective issues like grind or fun is going to lead to disagreement. Those terms are going to mean different things to different people. Also, peoples’ thresholds for grind will vary.

Now, statements like “Exotics will be top tier, Legendaries will have the same stats as exotics.” and “Players should have max statistical gear by level 80.” are not subjective. The fact is, these statements were made, and were not “corrected” prior to launch. As much as some of us don’t like the shift, it’s happened. However, continuing to discuss displeasure with this aspect of the game has potential benefits — namely, as a deterrent to further tiers.

As to whether the change was implemented because the game would not have survived without it, that is pure speculation with no shred of proof anywhere. The only thing I believe we can safely infer is that management believed the game would be more profitable with Ascended than without it.

Remember the statements that were made by ANet about the number of box sales being much higher than expected. This implies they sold boxes outside what they believed their target demographic to be. Changing gear progression and ease of attaining BiS was likely a calculated move to appeal to the gear chaser demographic (outside the group they expected to attract), while implementing the new BiS with minimal ties to hard content was an effort to retain the anti-traditional-MMO crowd, which was their target audience.

Kevan.8912:

….but anet is still trying to keep a foot in both camps.

i think they will finally lose at least one of the camps xD
at least one, because while for casuals it’s too much grind, for pros it’s too much grind for nothing so useful.
atm, gw2….is king of nothing.

Mireles Lore.5942:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

The difference is anything but minuscule. I could easily notice a damage increase of 14-19%.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-Stats-up-5-condition-damage/first#post3152793

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

So any game with any type of rare system is a treadmill? I guess all mmorpgs then heck all rpgs good luck finding a game to play if you cant deal with this bit of a treadmill.

Vayne.8563:

If you look at the number of times in the “advertising” words like vertical progression were mentioned, you’d find that the game was advertised on dynamic events, personal story, and active combat.

The number of times an aspect of a product is advertised is not relevant. If you own a store that sells men’s clothing and advertise ten times that your shirts cost $10 putting out one hundred advertisements that your jackets cost $100 does not negate the advertisement for your shirts.

Yes the Manifesto is a three year old video…one that is still presented on the game’s official site.

Mars.6319:

Colin Johanson spoke about ANet’s manifesto leading up to and during GW2’s beta program in early 2012.

In June 2012 Nexon invested in NCSoft and became NCSoft’s largest shareholder.

Around this time Crystin Cox, perhaps best known for her work at Nexon with Maplestory’s cash shop, became GW2’s monetization manager.

Is GW2 becoming more like GW1 or Maplestory?

Wrong! She was hired months (3/12) before Nexon purchase their share in NCSOFT (6/12) which was months before the game shipped. So she’s been in charge of the store since before the game went live.

The question you all should be asking is would it be worse, whatever slight you feel the Gem Store is doing to you or what it would be like if the exchange didn’t exist?. If everyone was forced to spend cash to get anything. How many $10 bank slots or $7.50 character slots would you have bought? or ~$1 keys? or $5-10 armor or city outfits?

That’s part of the problem. Imagine you’re Ms Cox, hired away from Nexon to run a cash shop and on day one they tell you players can buy items from the cash shop with in game currency. Basically that throws everything, every trick you know in running a true cash shop out the window. You now can’t make the items too cheap because then everyone will just use in game currency. But you are still stuck with not making them too expensive because then few will be able to buy it. She had to figure out new ways to motivate players into buying gems with cash.

Right now it looks like these little bursts of desirable items nearly all at once to deplete players gold reserves so they are forced to buy gems is the current strategy.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Kevan.8912:

Lynne.8416:

The manifesto was released in like 2010 right? The game wasn’t even released until 2012. The game went through changes between beta and release, and the game has made significant changes since release. Therefore, the manifesto is no longer applicable to the game. The manifesto was their intention for the game in 2010. We are now in 2014 and I expect more changes to come. 2 years from now the game could be totally different from today’s version.

mmmmh, no.
alpha/beta changes…is more about technical issues of a game, servers, or new maps, or little (not that little, but not substantial) changes, like timers cooldowns interface AI etc

manifesto is more than it: it’s the “philosophy” behind a game. it’s also about the players’ subpopulation it is advertised for.

There’s also the fact that most of the marketing and dev statements about the game almost up until release reflected that philosophy.

This statement you’ve made is demonstrably false.

Nothing I READ OR WATCHED contradicted it and like I said the majority of what READ AND WATCHED seemed to reflect the same philosophy eg. Colin’s blog on fun.

Why else do you think there was such a reaction against ascended items, largely from players that bought into that philosophy, which continues to this day.

manifesto was a marketing thing to hype up the game and generate huge initial sales. lucky for me, i play the game for other reasons. i cant stand the lore, the world and the bad PVE.

Lucky for me I never saw the manifesto or played GW. I’ve enjoyed this game by not coming in with a ton of preconceived notions and expectations.

VOLKON.1290:

Mireles Lore.5942:

VOLKON.1290:

Astralporing.1957:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand why

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Legendary….
is not a gear treadmill, but..

Common -> Fine -> Masterwork -> Rare -> Exotic -> Ascended -> Legendary
is a gear treadmill?

Why? because it takes more than a handful of hours to get?

Basically, yes. Gear progression turns into a treadmill when you have to work hard to keep up with it. If you can come back after a lengthy absence, skip few tiers and equip yourself in BiS almost right away after login, it allows you to shortcut the whole “running to stay at the same spot” problem.

Gear progression is a treadmill when you are constantly throwing away your BIS armor because new BIS armor was introduced with new content and your old BIS armor simply isn’t capable of getting the job done now.

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Pretty much this exactly. When you hit 80 you can very easily slip on a whole set of Rares and take on the world quite well, and you have the option if you wish to spend the time and efforts to go for ascended. As long as ascended doesn’t get overshadowed by a “higher” power tier you’ll never have the treadmill. Let Legendary armors come, and let them have the same stats as ascended, other features (switch on the fly stats for example) and take longer to get… that would be wonderful and completely against the treadmill philosophy due to it being a choice instead of a requirement for progression.

I fixed it for you since you don’t even need exotics to do a vast majority of the content in the game….I hope that changes soon…

Behellagh.1468:

Right now it looks like these little bursts of desirable items nearly all at once to deplete players gold reserves so they are forced to buy gems is the current strategy.

This also keeps Inflation at a relatively stable level since many player dump their vast gold reserves every couple of months for something or other. Believe it or not, that actually keeps the prices on Trading Post items down for all of us, and prevents Inflation from getting too bad (even though it was pretty bad the first year of the game’s release…)

Mireles Lore.5942:

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Ascended gear is noticeably stronger. A mix of Soldier’s Armor with Berserker trinkets and weapons hits harder then full Berserker exotics (almost 30%!) , yet has more then 2K additional Hit points and 250 more armor (for medium armor). Don’t try to qualify that difference as ‘minuscule’.

frans.8092:

Mireles Lore.5942:

I guess its not a gear treadmill then because exotic armor is still plenty capable of getting any job done. Like others have noted in the forums in increase is really minuscule you can’t notice the slightest difference. You don’t NEED this armor to do anything.

Ascended gear is noticeably stronger. A mix of Soldier’s Armor with Berserker trinkets and weapons hits harder then full Berserker exotics (almost 30%!) , yet has more then 2K additional Hit points and 250 more armor (for medium armor). Don’t try to qualify that difference as ‘minuscule’.

ptfff…..If that’s the case, then Valkyrie Ascended armor should hit 50% harder than Full Berserker Exotics….but It doesn’t.

this post has become pure semantics
with someone trying to justify anet decisions at any cost….others just getting angry about ascended…

as anet introduced it, and made it so hard to acquire, it’s obvious that an advantage had to exist. if not, why bother to create it and not only skins?
some say that it’s not worth grinding so many hours for a little gain.
but still there’s a progress. period.

it’s a waste of time convincing fanboys about it.
they’ll go on and on saying “not mandatory”. “don’t make difference” “only for fractals”
we’re speaking different languages.

manifesto is dead. and anet will do anything will find economically convenient.
the well-known grind and well-known gear progression (because some purists could argue about the meaning of treadmill. the idea behind is the same.)

if don’t like that, the only solution is…another game. maybe not mmo.

but:
to Anet: please change manifesto, or create a new one. and apologize for it.

And while “someone is trying to justify anets decisions at any cost” (I have never actually seen anyone like this tbh) there are just as many, if not more, that seems to have a compulsive need to hate everything about the game and the company as well, and instead of just moving on, have to spam these forums about it.

Vayne.8563:

The manifesto is a 3 year old 5 minute video. If people watched that and ignored everything said after that it’s not Anet’s fault.

I lost the count of how many time this has been asked, but anyway… Why a “3 years old 5 minutes video”, is still on the main page of GW2’s website, and “everything said after” don’t?

lordkrall.7241:

But if people only listen to a single video and then ignore all those articles and stuff clarifying things during the YEARS between Manifesto release and game release it IS the players fault.

As i said… Manifesto is on the mainpage, articles and stuff are not even in the database… Because they got conveniently lost when they changed from beta to release…

Vayne.8563:

Most of the statesments the devs made about the game prior to release didn’t mention vertical progression or gear grind at all. Only an tiny tiny percentage of dev quotes talked about that, and almost always only in response to a question asked by someone.

So all the people who complain about this, and left the game must have some kind of problem at reading/listening what the devs said… And all the quotes they put as signature, taken from devs’ interviews and blog post, must’ve been some kind of collective allucination, right?

lordkrall.7241:

And while “someone is trying to justify anets decisions at any cost” (I have never actually seen anyone like this tbh) there are just as many, if not more, that seems to have a compulsive need to hate everything about the game and the company as well, and instead of just moving on, have to spam these forums about it.

That the thing there nothing else for them to do GW2 is simply the only mmorpg that is playable for these ppl but they cant deal with it being just right for them and nothing else to fill there time so they spend there time here. In about a few months you will see it die off when new mmorpgs come out but in about 2 to 3 months after though mmorpgs hype where off and is not just right for them they will come back to these forums or stick to the forums of the new mmorpgs.

I think there is something wrong with the gaming community over all they over-hype games to the point of utopia like levels and once they find out that they live in real life they hate the game and not just hate but hate to the point of trying to destroy. I do not think the gaming community will ever be truly happy with there life or the things they love gaming. They are addictive to feeling unhappy and the self given right (they feel that they have the right to destroy and rages if its not the way they think it should be) to rage and destroy.

Simply put this has not been about the manifesto for about a year the manifesto is an excuse.

Jski.6180:

lordkrall.7241:

And while “someone is trying to justify anets decisions at any cost” (I have never actually seen anyone like this tbh) there are just as many, if not more, that seems to have a compulsive need to hate everything about the game and the company as well, and instead of just moving on, have to spam these forums about it.

That the thing there nothing else for them to do GW2 is simply the only mmorpg that is playable for these ppl but they cant deal with it being just right for them and nothing else to fill there time so they spend there time here. In about a few months you will see it die off when new mmorpgs come out but in about 2 to 3 months after though mmorpgs hype where off and is not just right for them they will come back to these forums or stick to the forums of the new mmorpgs.

I think there is something wrong with the gaming community over all they over-hype games to the point of utopia like levels and once they find out that they live in real life they hate the game and not just hate but hate to the point of trying to destroy. I do not think the gaming community will ever be truly happy with there life or the things they love gaming. They are addictive to feeling unhappy and the self given right (they feel that they have the right to destroy and rages if its not the way they think it should be) to rage and destroy.

Simply put this has not been about the manifesto for about a year the manifesto is an excuse.

Gosh, rage and destroy, idk about that lol.

I think lots of peeps would have been really happy if they got everything they loved about gw1 put into a persistent world, or maybe some of it.

mesme.5028:

Jski.6180:

lordkrall.7241:

And while “someone is trying to justify anets decisions at any cost” (I have never actually seen anyone like this tbh) there are just as many, if not more, that seems to have a compulsive need to hate everything about the game and the company as well, and instead of just moving on, have to spam these forums about it.

That the thing there nothing else for them to do GW2 is simply the only mmorpg that is playable for these ppl but they cant deal with it being just right for them and nothing else to fill there time so they spend there time here. In about a few months you will see it die off when new mmorpgs come out but in about 2 to 3 months after though mmorpgs hype where off and is not just right for them they will come back to these forums or stick to the forums of the new mmorpgs.

I think there is something wrong with the gaming community over all they over-hype games to the point of utopia like levels and once they find out that they live in real life they hate the game and not just hate but hate to the point of trying to destroy. I do not think the gaming community will ever be truly happy with there life or the things they love gaming. They are addictive to feeling unhappy and the self given right (they feel that they have the right to destroy and rages if its not the way they think it should be) to rage and destroy.

Simply put this has not been about the manifesto for about a year the manifesto is an excuse.

Gosh, rage and destroy, idk about that lol.

I think lots of peeps would have been really happy if they got everything they loved about gw1 put into a persistent world, or maybe some of it.

Ya i was just playing to the lowest denominator when i was saying that it is a bit of a cheep move but its true at all levels to a point and degree. The thing about GW1 it was a niche game most ppl who game did not play GW1 or at least say for a long time I for one hated GW1. GW2 is trying to get a much bigger group of ppl and it did and still has.
The funny thing is GW2 has a persistent world to it and ppl hate it as in temp content. That what persisting world means things happen when your not there so you WILL miss things. I do not think ppl even know what they want and do not want until they try it out for them self.

Jski.6180:

mesme.5028:

Jski.6180:

lordkrall.7241:

And while “someone is trying to justify anets decisions at any cost” (I have never actually seen anyone like this tbh) there are just as many, if not more, that seems to have a compulsive need to hate everything about the game and the company as well, and instead of just moving on, have to spam these forums about it.

That the thing there nothing else for them to do GW2 is simply the only mmorpg that is playable for these ppl but they cant deal with it being just right for them and nothing else to fill there time so they spend there time here. In about a few months you will see it die off when new mmorpgs come out but in about 2 to 3 months after though mmorpgs hype where off and is not just right for them they will come back to these forums or stick to the forums of the new mmorpgs.

I think there is something wrong with the gaming community over all they over-hype games to the point of utopia like levels and once they find out that they live in real life they hate the game and not just hate but hate to the point of trying to destroy. I do not think the gaming community will ever be truly happy with there life or the things they love gaming. They are addictive to feeling unhappy and the self given right (they feel that they have the right to destroy and rages if its not the way they think it should be) to rage and destroy.

Simply put this has not been about the manifesto for about a year the manifesto is an excuse.

Gosh, rage and destroy, idk about that lol.

I think lots of peeps would have been really happy if they got everything they loved about gw1 put into a persistent world, or maybe some of it.

Ya i was just playing to the lowest denominator when i was saying that it is a bit of a cheep move but its true at all levels to a point and degree. The thing about GW1 it was a niche game most ppl who game did not play GW1 or at least say for a long time I for one hated GW1. GW2 is trying to get a much bigger group of ppl and it did and still has.
The funny thing is GW2 has a persistent world to it and ppl hate it as in temp content. That what persisting world means things happen when your not there so you WILL miss things. I do not think ppl even know what they want and do not want until they try it out for them self.

I think they sold gw2 to just about every gw1 player, for years it was mentioned in towns, guild and alliance chat, a lot of gw fans do play gw2 still, some quit and others went back gw1, im in a gw1 guild atm with a full alliance, i play both gw1 and gw2 and have a lot of fun, i know a lot feel betrayed and you get the same reaction in gw1 guild chat if you mention gw2 as you do if you mention wow.

If they had did as they said in the manifesto and stuck to that, everyone i think would have been happy.

mesme.5028:

Jski.6180:

mesme.5028:

Jski.6180:

lordkrall.7241:

And while “someone is trying to justify anets decisions at any cost” (I have never actually seen anyone like this tbh) there are just as many, if not more, that seems to have a compulsive need to hate everything about the game and the company as well, and instead of just moving on, have to spam these forums about it.

That the thing there nothing else for them to do GW2 is simply the only mmorpg that is playable for these ppl but they cant deal with it being just right for them and nothing else to fill there time so they spend there time here. In about a few months you will see it die off when new mmorpgs come out but in about 2 to 3 months after though mmorpgs hype where off and is not just right for them they will come back to these forums or stick to the forums of the new mmorpgs.

I think there is something wrong with the gaming community over all they over-hype games to the point of utopia like levels and once they find out that they live in real life they hate the game and not just hate but hate to the point of trying to destroy. I do not think the gaming community will ever be truly happy with there life or the things they love gaming. They are addictive to feeling unhappy and the self given right (they feel that they have the right to destroy and rages if its not the way they think it should be) to rage and destroy.

Simply put this has not been about the manifesto for about a year the manifesto is an excuse.

Gosh, rage and destroy, idk about that lol.

I think lots of peeps would have been really happy if they got everything they loved about gw1 put into a persistent world, or maybe some of it.

Ya i was just playing to the lowest denominator when i was saying that it is a bit of a cheep move but its true at all levels to a point and degree. The thing about GW1 it was a niche game most ppl who game did not play GW1 or at least say for a long time I for one hated GW1. GW2 is trying to get a much bigger group of ppl and it did and still has.
The funny thing is GW2 has a persistent world to it and ppl hate it as in temp content. That what persisting world means things happen when your not there so you WILL miss things. I do not think ppl even know what they want and do not want until they try it out for them self.

I think they sold gw2 to just about every gw1 player, for years it was mentioned in towns, guild and alliance chat, a lot of gw fans do play gw2 still, some quit and others went back gw1, im in a gw1 guild atm with a full alliance, i play both gw1 and gw2 and have a lot of fun, i know a lot feel betrayed and you get the same reaction in gw1 guild chat if you mention gw2 as you do if you mention wow.

If they had did as they said in the manifesto and stuck to that, everyone i think would have been happy.

I honestly do not think it would make everyone happy. I am still not comply sold on the idea that they did not stay with there manifesto too i think ppl read into it the way they want to make there ideas right when it should be the writers of that manifesto to tell others how they should see it. Kind of the viewer of art vs the artiest point argument.