Guild Wars 2

Personally, I am tired of games that guide you by the hand from ride to ride. Games Like World of Warcraft and Gw2 fit this mold perfectly. I do think as Nick.6972 said, that Maybe we need less Theme-parks.

I believe we need games where the developers hand us an amazing Virtual Space, and tell us.." here ya go.. have fun"

I agree for a bunch of players that have grown up playing WoW and WoW clones. That Theme-park may be all they know. Maybe the idea of having to “Live” In a Virtual World where you are not being led by the nose with Breadcrumbs…from one quest hub to another quest hub, may at first seem daunting.

But then again, that is what I remember I loved most about games Like EverQuest. The idea that you had to explore, and you had this space to do it in, where you were not told what to do.

I personally think that Theme-Parks are easier to develop than Sandboxes. So the development companies run by the accountants and venture capitalists will continue to focus on Theme-parks.

If we want sandboxes, we need to support sandboxes,…. and STOP supporting Theme-parks.

Now if you are perfectly happy with Theme-parks. Then this will be fine, the whole " Must reach level cap ASAP because..the game begins at 80"… and then you look around, and ask. “where’s the endgame?”

As for me I remember when " the game begins at level 1." Was filled with a ton of different things to do…. because it was a sandbox.

What did WoW do? It stripped EQ of Most of it’s support roles, created " The Holy Trinity" because before WoW, EverQuest had Like 5 or 6 different ROLES, and stripped the 1-79 experience of all it’s sandbox elements. So that players were right…" the game begins at 80" and this is because " the 1-79 game, was taken out"

Now we have all these MMO’s that are copying that Model.

You get what you pay for, and support with your wallet.

Nothing wrong with Theme-parks. If this is what you enjoy awesome. But then you are dependent on the developer to create fun and content for you.

MikaHR.1978:

Keitaro Dragonheart.9047:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

snip

Of course its not good, it wasnt good in GW1 and its not good in GW2.

But hey, at least “community” (those few people that called themselves community at the time and whined about it the loudest) is happy, amiright?

If you want to delude yourself that trait system change has nothing to do with GW1 skill capture whines, well, good luck with that because its direct reaction to “feedback from community”

They did skill/trait/gear system at launch to serve specific purpose (as you can read in my sig)

Now 2 of those are untrue, and direct result of “community whines” aka “who was loudest on the forums at certain times”

Right. Only “GW1 whiners” are ruining the game. Because GW2 players (who’ve never played GW1) totally never whine!

“Waaah! Liadari is too hard! Nerf!”
“Waaah! Arah is too hard! Nerf!”
“Waaah! Ascalon Catacombs story mode is too hard! Nerf!”

Please, bunch of cry babies. Ruining content by getting it nerfed with all your tears. Ascalon Catacombs story mode for instance was hella fun; you actually had to think (le gasp) to complete it. Then people cried it was too hard, it got nerfed, and now you can just faceroll through it. GW2 players want everything easymode. You thought anything in this game was hard?

As a GW1 player, I challenge all of you to go play Elite missions without gimmicks. Domain of Anguish, Underworld, Fissure of Woe. None of you will last past the first wave of mobs before you start crying that it’s too hard and needs to be nerfed. And all of those missions had a Hard Mode too. The only thing in this game that could be considered challenging by comparison, would be Arah Explorer Mode and High Level Fractals.

GW2 carebears (not casuals/hardcore/whatever. Thought I’d clarify before people start screaming that not all GW2 players are alike.) are ruining the game as much as, if not more so than “GW1 whiners.”

Ahhh, but there are many groups of whiners, but what is similar to all of them:

they are extremely vocal
they are extremely small group

and yeah, GW1 whiners get a special medal for change to traits

Nerelith.7360:

Nick.6972:

Was watching Destiny Review and it reminded me of GW2 for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzopWRXK_r4
Grinding, no content, insane RNG.
Perhaps it’s time for the developers to focus on sandbox MMOs instead of theme park.

One word. Archeage.

If you adore P2W yeah, otherwise skip.

If you think Archeage is pay2win. I would Like to hear a definition of Pay2win, that will make Archeage pay2win, but that also excludes Gw2.

Any definition of pay2win loose enough to include Archeage, will also include Gw2, and almost every other MMO out there, that has a cash shop that sells anything beyond Cosmetics.. Things Like..Exp Boosters…. crafting xp boosters… etc etc..

So just curious, what is your definition of pay2win, that makes Archeage pay2win, but doesn’t make Gw2 pay2win?

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

Keitaro Dragonheart.9047:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

snip

Of course its not good, it wasnt good in GW1 and its not good in GW2.

But hey, at least “community” (those few people that called themselves community at the time and whined about it the loudest) is happy, amiright?

If you want to delude yourself that trait system change has nothing to do with GW1 skill capture whines, well, good luck with that because its direct reaction to “feedback from community”

They did skill/trait/gear system at launch to serve specific purpose (as you can read in my sig)

Now 2 of those are untrue, and direct result of “community whines” aka “who was loudest on the forums at certain times”

Right. Only “GW1 whiners” are ruining the game. Because GW2 players (who’ve never played GW1) totally never whine!

“Waaah! Liadari is too hard! Nerf!”
“Waaah! Arah is too hard! Nerf!”
“Waaah! Ascalon Catacombs story mode is too hard! Nerf!”

Please, bunch of cry babies. Ruining content by getting it nerfed with all your tears. Ascalon Catacombs story mode for instance was hella fun; you actually had to think (le gasp) to complete it. Then people cried it was too hard, it got nerfed, and now you can just faceroll through it. GW2 players want everything easymode. You thought anything in this game was hard?

As a GW1 player, I challenge all of you to go play Elite missions without gimmicks. Domain of Anguish, Underworld, Fissure of Woe. None of you will last past the first wave of mobs before you start crying that it’s too hard and needs to be nerfed. And all of those missions had a Hard Mode too. The only thing in this game that could be considered challenging by comparison, would be Arah Explorer Mode and High Level Fractals.

GW2 carebears (not casuals/hardcore/whatever. Thought I’d clarify before people start screaming that not all GW2 players are alike.) are ruining the game as much as, if not more so than “GW1 whiners.”

Ahhh, but there are many groups of whiners, but what is similar to all of them:

they are extremely vocal
they are extremely small group

and yeah, GW1 whiners get a special medal for change to traits

Nerelith.7360:

Nick.6972:

Was watching Destiny Review and it reminded me of GW2 for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzopWRXK_r4
Grinding, no content, insane RNG.
Perhaps it’s time for the developers to focus on sandbox MMOs instead of theme park.

One word. Archeage.

If you adore P2W yeah, otherwise skip.

If you think Archeage is pay2win. I would Like to hear a definition of Pay2win, that will make Archeage pay2win, but that also excludes Gw2.

Any definition of pay2win loose enough to include Archeage, will also include Gw2, and almost every other MMO out there, that has a cash shop that sells anything beyond Cosmetics.. Things Like..Exp Boosters…. crafting xp boosters… etc etc..

So just curious, what is your definition of pay2win, that makes Archeage pay2win, but doesn’t make Gw2 pay2win?

P2W is self explanatory.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

MikaHR.1978:

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

Keitaro Dragonheart.9047:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

snip

Of course its not good, it wasnt good in GW1 and its not good in GW2.

But hey, at least “community” (those few people that called themselves community at the time and whined about it the loudest) is happy, amiright?

If you want to delude yourself that trait system change has nothing to do with GW1 skill capture whines, well, good luck with that because its direct reaction to “feedback from community”

They did skill/trait/gear system at launch to serve specific purpose (as you can read in my sig)

Now 2 of those are untrue, and direct result of “community whines” aka “who was loudest on the forums at certain times”

Right. Only “GW1 whiners” are ruining the game. Because GW2 players (who’ve never played GW1) totally never whine!

“Waaah! Liadari is too hard! Nerf!”
“Waaah! Arah is too hard! Nerf!”
“Waaah! Ascalon Catacombs story mode is too hard! Nerf!”

Please, bunch of cry babies. Ruining content by getting it nerfed with all your tears. Ascalon Catacombs story mode for instance was hella fun; you actually had to think (le gasp) to complete it. Then people cried it was too hard, it got nerfed, and now you can just faceroll through it. GW2 players want everything easymode. You thought anything in this game was hard?

As a GW1 player, I challenge all of you to go play Elite missions without gimmicks. Domain of Anguish, Underworld, Fissure of Woe. None of you will last past the first wave of mobs before you start crying that it’s too hard and needs to be nerfed. And all of those missions had a Hard Mode too. The only thing in this game that could be considered challenging by comparison, would be Arah Explorer Mode and High Level Fractals.

GW2 carebears (not casuals/hardcore/whatever. Thought I’d clarify before people start screaming that not all GW2 players are alike.) are ruining the game as much as, if not more so than “GW1 whiners.”

Ahhh, but there are many groups of whiners, but what is similar to all of them:

they are extremely vocal
they are extremely small group

and yeah, GW1 whiners get a special medal for change to traits

Nerelith.7360:

Nick.6972:

Was watching Destiny Review and it reminded me of GW2 for some reason.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzopWRXK_r4
Grinding, no content, insane RNG.
Perhaps it’s time for the developers to focus on sandbox MMOs instead of theme park.

One word. Archeage.

If you adore P2W yeah, otherwise skip.

If you think Archeage is pay2win. I would Like to hear a definition of Pay2win, that will make Archeage pay2win, but that also excludes Gw2.

Any definition of pay2win loose enough to include Archeage, will also include Gw2, and almost every other MMO out there, that has a cash shop that sells anything beyond Cosmetics.. Things Like..Exp Boosters…. crafting xp boosters… etc etc..

So just curious, what is your definition of pay2win, that makes Archeage pay2win, but doesn’t make Gw2 pay2win?

P2W is self explanatory.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

that would mean sub based, which is essentially what arche age is, sub/cash shop hybrid.
and before you say thats dumb, keep in mind gw2 already using this model in china, and some version of it may come here eventually

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

Show some independent thoughts On the issue, and that you haven’t just read a few posts On reddit, and jumped On the " AA is p2w" bandwagon.

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

So you refuse to define pay2win? I can understand why. Either you are on the " AA is p2w " bandwagon , and have not given it any independent though. Or you do not have an actual definition. I have one Online says

Pay2win- When a player can purchase BiS weapon or armor from the cash shop, that is better than anything that can ever be purchased or crafted by a Player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop, or when a Player using cash at the cash shop, can craft or create something better and faster, than can be crafted or purchased by another player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop that relies only on in game gold.

Now… Archeage does not fit that definition, … neither does Gw2. But:

You can stretch, and warp the definition to try and fit Archeage into it, so that it seems that " Archeage is p2w."

Thing is, that I can then warp and twist and loosen the definition so that Gw2 similarly fits In and I can then say " Gw2 is pay2win"

You make a Lot of unwarranted assumptions, and you argue a Lot of things through Hyperbole and conjecture.

the ONLY thing you did NOT do, is give me YOUR definition of pay2win, that includes Archeage, and excludes Gw2.

I’ll give you another shot. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

I don’t think you want a “definition”, but rather an explanation of what’s Pay-to-Win in ArchAge.

What you’ve typed here just seems like an attack, it’s the herald of a discussion devolving into a fight (the kind where no one convinces the other party to their side (fully or partially) or admits they were wrong (without explaining they weren’t actually wrong), and it’s just a self-serving document of how right they are).

Jski.6180:

If GW2 is not working then why has it out lasted 2 major mmorpg that play a lot like it? GW1 at the end of the day was not a true mmorpg it was an online game with co-op GW2 is a full open world mmorpg there are just truth to dealing with that type of game vs just the simple “also has online play” type of game.

GW2 could not have done worse. They had so many players and everyone left. Can you imagine that a game from 1998 (also from ncsoft) is making twice as much profit every month compared to gw2? That’s how bad gw2 is doing lol.

CoRtex.2157:

Jski.6180:

If GW2 is not working then why has it out lasted 2 major mmorpg that play a lot like it? GW1 at the end of the day was not a true mmorpg it was an online game with co-op GW2 is a full open world mmorpg there are just truth to dealing with that type of game vs just the simple “also has online play” type of game.

GW2 could not have done worse. They had so many players and everyone left. Can you imagine that a game from 1998 (also from ncsoft) is making twice as much profit every month compared to gw2? That’s how bad gw2 is doing lol.

It could have done a lot worse, actually.

Speaking of games from NCsoft which had worse happen . . . despite from all appearances not losing money . . .

Boneheart.3561:

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

I don’t think you want a “definition”, but rather an explanation of what’s Pay-to-Win in ArchAge.

What you’ve typed here just seems like an attack, it’s the herald of a discussion devolving into a fight (the kind where no one convinces the other party to their side (fully or partially) or admits they were wrong (without explaining they weren’t actually wrong), and it’s just a self-serving document of how right they are).

You are free to think what you wish. I cannot correct your thinking. he calls Archeage P2w. I explain that it is not, by using a commonly accepted definition.

Now while anyone can " explain how Archeage is pay2win" for it to have meaning one needs to first work on a definition for pay2win, that everyone can accept.

I offered a definiton everyone agrees on. You and the previous Poster just say " oh we all know it’s pay2win, and can explain how."

The thing is. Either something IS pay2win, or it is not.

But to do so, first you need to provide a definition for pay2win. Neither you, nor the previous poster have.

I have.

Then you say that this will devolve into some kind of fight. Why?

Because I try to use Logic, and knowledge, define the terms being discussed?

I can see that someone that does not understand what pay2win really is, might not wish to engage.

Either way, you ans the previous Poster have demonstrated that all you kno about AA is what you have accepted because of Confirmation Bias. That and a few reddit posts..

" labor points"

Let me clue you in… if Labor Points and potions, makes Aecheage Pay2win. Then Experience Boosters, crafting experience boosters, keys sold in cash shop to open Bliack Lion Chests…etc… anything NOT a cosmetic Item on the BLTP..makes Gw2 …pay2win.

Javonovich.5280:

Moreover, I don’t find the living story very challenging. And achievements that are sort of grindy or frustrating aren’t what we need, either, but that also seems like the direction ANET is going in. GW1’s hard mode was just that: Hard. In some areas, it was ruthlessly hard. And yet, the content was still soloable for the casuals and fun to fly through for the organized groups. But best of all, the content was worth repeating because the rewards in hard mode were profitable. Why should I do dungeon content and go through the stress of finding a group (not to mention gearing for a dungeon which isn’t cheap) when the rewards are lackluster? Why repeat the LS content at all only to complete some uninspired achievements?

Man, talking about this really makes me mad. I’d play GW1 because it was fun, not for any kind of aesthetic rewards. And you know? I actually got almost all of those rewards anyway as a simple biproduct of just playing the game. Unfortunately, in GW2 the best rewards are the lamest most boring grinds I’ve ever done (foxfire clusters or saving gold for precursors, anyone?).

Hit the nail on the head!!

For 7 years GW1 stayed fun for the most part. Despite Anet throwing around nerfs there was still enough flexibility and depth to allow players to develop new builds and adapt.

GW2 doesn’t have that. No depth, no variation, just grind, rinse, repeat.

Sorry, I stand by my original statement, GW2 isn’t working. Diminishing player numbers, pointless cosmetic updates, a very poor skill/trait system and an advancement system that bears no resemblance to anything RPG ever, makes GW2 a pale shadow of its predecessor. ANet has failed to deliver on its own manifesto. They need direction from gamers and not from profiteers who think that the gem store is their cash cow and care about little else.

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

Show some independent thoughts On the issue, and that you haven’t just read a few posts On reddit, and jumped On the " AA is p2w" bandwagon.

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

So you refuse to define pay2win? I can understand why. Either you are on the " AA is p2w " bandwagon , and have not given it any independent though. Or you do not have an actual definition. I have one Online says

Pay2win- When a player can purchase BiS weapon or armor from the cash shop, that is better than anything that can ever be purchased or crafted by a Player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop, or when a Player using cash at the cash shop, can craft or create something better and faster, than can be crafted or purchased by another player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop that relies only on in game gold.

Now… Archeage does not fit that definition, … neither does Gw2. But:

You can stretch, and warp the definition to try and fit Archeage into it, so that it seems that " Archeage is p2w."

Thing is, that I can then warp and twist and loosen the definition so that Gw2 similarly fits In and I can then say " Gw2 is pay2win"

You make a Lot of unwarranted assumptions, and you argue a Lot of things through Hyperbole and conjecture.

the ONLY thing you did NOT do, is give me YOUR definition of pay2win, that includes Archeage, and excludes Gw2.

I’ll give you another shot. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

Archeage is only pay to win if it’s free to play, which it claims it is.

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

The problem is Trion says it’s free to play. Then it’s pay to win.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

Show some independent thoughts On the issue, and that you haven’t just read a few posts On reddit, and jumped On the " AA is p2w" bandwagon.

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

So you refuse to define pay2win? I can understand why. Either you are on the " AA is p2w " bandwagon , and have not given it any independent though. Or you do not have an actual definition. I have one Online says

Pay2win- When a player can purchase BiS weapon or armor from the cash shop, that is better than anything that can ever be purchased or crafted by a Player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop, or when a Player using cash at the cash shop, can craft or create something better and faster, than can be crafted or purchased by another player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop that relies only on in game gold.

Now… Archeage does not fit that definition, … neither does Gw2. But:

You can stretch, and warp the definition to try and fit Archeage into it, so that it seems that " Archeage is p2w."

Thing is, that I can then warp and twist and loosen the definition so that Gw2 similarly fits In and I can then say " Gw2 is pay2win"

You make a Lot of unwarranted assumptions, and you argue a Lot of things through Hyperbole and conjecture.

the ONLY thing you did NOT do, is give me YOUR definition of pay2win, that includes Archeage, and excludes Gw2.

I’ll give you another shot. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

Archeage is only pay to win if it’s free to play, which it claims it is.

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

The problem is Trion says it’s free to play. Then it’s pay to win.

I disagree, Just because a game is free2play does not make it pay2win. Under that definition Gw2 is also pay2win. After all, the cash shop in Gw2 follows the model of the cash shop in any other free2play game, including AA.

The only difference between the two is Gw2 charges you money to install the game. AA does not. Aside from that. They are both cash shop reliant, and they both sell Non-cosmetic items On the cash shop for the convenience of players.

They both sell convenience for cash. if that makes Archeage pay2win, that also makes Gw2 pay2win. That isn’t what you mean vayne right?

It is free2play, because anything a patron can do a free2player can do. There is no part of the game that is denied a free player. A free to play player cannot own land, their Labor Points are less, they gain less while online, and none while offline.

Aside from that anything you can Imagine a patron doing a free2play player can also do.

Are some parts of the game there that patrons can enjoy that free2play players cannot? yes. Otherwise, why play for patron? Basically Offline LP regen, and land ownership.

That makes Archeage free2play. You CAN play it for free. You are not limited in levels unlike World of Warcraft, where it is only free2play til level 20.

The thing is, that if no areas are denied free2play players, and no level are denied free2play players, and no armor or weapons are denied free2play players,… How is it not free2play?

Can you PvP for free? yes. Can you craft for free? yes. Can you farm for free? yes. Can you fish for free? yes. Can you own a ship and pirate other ships for free? yes.

Therefore it IS free2play.

How is it not free2play? You can Play… for free. that is the definition of free2play.

Example of NOT free2play. World of Warcraft after level 20. You cannot access servers without a subscription.

Free2play means you can access the servers without a Monthly subscription.

Therefore it is free2play.

PS what ddoes this mean?

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

MikaHR.1978:

P2W is self explanatory.

That means you don’t know the definition.

It doesnt take long even for someone who knows nothing about AA to figureit out (khm….labor points….khm….and thats just tip of the iceberg)

Show some independent thoughts On the issue, and that you haven’t just read a few posts On reddit, and jumped On the " AA is p2w" bandwagon.

If you want to play AA you HAVE to pay. Constantly. Thats P2W. I have a sense “masses” will feel what P2W means very quickly and mass exodus will begin. Its wise of them not to bring in anymore servers, as they really wont need em, and you surely cant merge those servers (well at least not without kittening at least 1 servers population completely off)

So you refuse to define pay2win? I can understand why. Either you are on the " AA is p2w " bandwagon , and have not given it any independent though. Or you do not have an actual definition. I have one Online says

Pay2win- When a player can purchase BiS weapon or armor from the cash shop, that is better than anything that can ever be purchased or crafted by a Player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop, or when a Player using cash at the cash shop, can craft or create something better and faster, than can be crafted or purchased by another player that doesn’t shop at the cash shop that relies only on in game gold.

Now… Archeage does not fit that definition, … neither does Gw2. But:

You can stretch, and warp the definition to try and fit Archeage into it, so that it seems that " Archeage is p2w."

Thing is, that I can then warp and twist and loosen the definition so that Gw2 similarly fits In and I can then say " Gw2 is pay2win"

You make a Lot of unwarranted assumptions, and you argue a Lot of things through Hyperbole and conjecture.

the ONLY thing you did NOT do, is give me YOUR definition of pay2win, that includes Archeage, and excludes Gw2.

I’ll give you another shot. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

Archeage is only pay to win if it’s free to play, which it claims it is.

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

The problem is Trion says it’s free to play. Then it’s pay to win.

I disagree, Just because a game is free2play does not make it pay2win. Under that definition Gw2 is also pay2win. After all, the cash shop in Gw2 follows the model of the cash shop in any other free2play game, including AA.

The only difference between the two is Gw2 charges you money to install the game. AA does not. Aside from that. They are both cash shop reliant, and they both sell Non-cosmetic items On the cash shop for the convenience of players.

They both sell convenience for cash. if that makes Archeage pay2win, that also makes Gw2 pay2win. That isn’t what you mean vayne right?

It is free2play, because anything a patron can do a free2player can do. There is no part of the game that is denied a free player. A free to play player cannot own land, their Labor Points are less, they gain less while online, and none while offline.

Aside from that anything you can Imagine a patron doing a free2play player can also do.

Are some parts of the game there that patrons can enjoy that free2play players cannot? yes. Otherwise, why play for patron? Basically Offline LP regen, and land ownership.

That makes Archeage free2play. You CAN play it for free. You are not limited in levels unlike World of Warcraft, where it is only free2play til level 20.

The thing is, that if no areas are denied free2play players, and no level are denied free2play players, and no armor or weapons are denied free2play players,… How is it not free2play?

Can you PvP for free? yes. Can you craft for free? yes. Can you farm for free? yes. Can you fish for free? yes. Can you own a ship and pirate other ships for free? yes.

Therefore it IS free2play.

How is it not free2play? You can Play… for free. that is the definition of free2play.

Example of NOT free2play. World of Warcraft after level 20. You cannot access servers without a subscription.

Free2play means you can access the servers without a Monthly subscription.

Therefore it is free2play.

PS what ddoes this mean?

If it’s pay to try, then it’s not pay to win.

You like the game so you’re willfully ignoring the issue.

If a game is free to play you don’t have to pay to play it. If you don’t pay to play it, you’re at a major disadvantage. That’s the very definition of pay to win.

Pay to win it’s not if it were only subscription. Free players are at a disadvantage.

Haishao.6851:

phys.7689:

what is the core of what you feel is missing in gw2?

Depth

Vague and meaningless concept that can refer to anything. Try again.

Kurrilino.2706:

-Multiple skills to choose from

Open up your hero window and look at your skills tab.

Kurrilino.2706:

-Bring back death penalty

Already have it, being downed multiple times within one minute lowers your health during subsequent downs.

Kurrilino.2706:

-Bring back Monster Necros who raise stuff from our bodys

Would be hard to incorporate into an MMO, but I suppose it’s possible.

Kurrilino.2706:

-Take away reviving from everyone but Guardian and Necro

Umm, why? This game has no “holy trinity” for a reason. I’d rather not have any more “Alesia’s dead? Well %$@#, mission failed” moments, thank you very much.

Kurrilino.2706:

- Bring back Cantha and Elona

This I do agree with.

ShadowDragoonFTW.3418:

Talking about transitioning things from GW1 to GW2 just seems like a bad idea to me. GW2 has taken on a life of it’s own. It isn’t “the sequel to GW1”, instead it’s “that MMO that relies heavily on dodging and combat that actually makes realistic sense”.

If you really want a game that’s more like GW1, then start with a game that’s already close to it. Don’t take what people love about GW2 and twist it to fit what you think the “sequel” to GW1 should be like.

Maybe Guild Wars 3 will be closer to Guild Wars 1 than it is to 2. If so, then good for you. You’ll get the game you want. But me? I like GW2 how it is. I don’t want it to be fit into a mold just to be more like its “predecessor”. I like my game how it is, don’t ruin it for me in the name of nostalgia and/or legacy.

Not to mention that many of these people would probably be the first ones saying “GW2 is exactly like GW1? Nothing new at all? Why sould I play it, then? Bahh, this game sucks!!!”

notorious bob.2061:

So I logged back into my GW1 account yesterday, just to have a potter about for old times sake.

Did a few “solo” runs including some of the old stuff that I developed for the Ranger’s Beacon in The Jade Sea and The Deep.

Grabbed henchies and heroes and had a few bashes at dropping a froggy sceptre.

Took some folks on a guided tour of the Fissure

Went and capped a Black Widow solo – just because I could.

and then something stopped me in my tracks. I realised that I cared about my toons, felt connected to them. They had a personality and playing the game was FUN!

More than that, I could play GW1 in various styles and no part of the game world was “off limits” or restricted.

And that’s where GW2 has failed. Sure it looks pretty, but there simply isn’t the connection, my toons have no personality and the game is an un-ending grind for cosmetic skins, short term FPS “shoot and scoot” mentality and Anet wasting effort on trivial “improvements” rather than letting players PLAY in a style that suits them.

Sad that after such a short time GW2 has become a pale imitation of its predecessor.

I completely agree. The past two years I’ve felt like I’ve been playing a rent-a-toon. Sure it’s mine to throw around but it’s not mine to customize. My sword skills are locked in the same 5 boring options, as are my GS, staff, etc. I’m forced to choose utility skills. This disconnect along with Anet’s decision-making has driven me away.

DaShi.1368:

Let me know if I’m correct: Telling some one to leave the game is something you will do. You won’t, however, suggest alternative games to play.

Think you got the gist of it, yea.
Also, +1 to pointing out the hypocrisy (as usual).

Vayne.8563:

You like the game so you’re willfully ignoring the issue.

Oh, I just had to chuckle at that one, really.

Nerelith.7360:

snip

Dude, playing with semantics wont really change one fact:

AA is P2W.

phys.7689:

that would mean sub based, which is essentially what arche age is, sub/cash shop hybrid.
and before you say thats dumb, keep in mind gw2 already using this model in china, and some version of it may come here eventually

You are right, you have to “sub” AND pay on top of that.

Its worst case of P2W, side by side many of F2P games.

And your jab at GW2 is not really jab, afaik were not playing china GW2 and dont have anything to do with china GW2, not even same company running it. AND we dont get china VIP. So yeah, any comparison of AA and GW2 is just weak attempt at….something.

Anyway, if you want to try/play AA be prepared to open your wallet wide, costantly. Its the worst case scenario of "sub"+invasive cash shop. F2P is pretty much trial…and not very pleasant one.

Really dont know what Trion was thinking, they got a lot of goodwill (even if low pop for Rift, but fact is it wasnt very good game overall) and now with AA theyre tossing it all down the drain, just look at metacritic for AA

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/archeage

MikaHR.1978:

Nerelith.7360:

snip

Dude, playing with semantics wont really change one fact:

AA is P2W.

phys.7689:

that would mean sub based, which is essentially what arche age is, sub/cash shop hybrid.
and before you say thats dumb, keep in mind gw2 already using this model in china, and some version of it may come here eventually

You are right, you have to “sub” AND pay on top of that.

Its worst case of P2W, side by side many of F2P games.

And your jab at GW2 is not really jab, afaik were not playing china GW2 and dont have anything to do with china GW2, not even same company running it. AND we dont get china VIP. So yeah, any comparison of AA and GW2 is just weak attempt at….something.

Anyway, if you want to try/play AA be prepared to open your wallet wide, costantly. Its the worst case scenario of "sub"+invasive cash shop.

Apparently even use of the report function in AA requires labor points. lol

How’s that any different from GW2 and it’s ‘friendly’ hinting to purchase gems and turn them into gold (as means of fighting the insane gold grind needed for the BiS, for example), meanwhile nerfing any and all farm spots, keeping TP flipping unhindered, implementing a loot system that gives an impression it was created with the sole purpose of trolling players (cuz gem sop is where the fun’z at).

You people, really….hi pot, meet kettle.

KarlaGrey.5903:

How’s that any different from GW2 and it’s ‘friendly’ hinting to purchase gems and turn them into gold (as means of fighting the insane gold grind needed for the BiS, for example), meanwhile nerfing any and all farm spots, keeping TP flipping unhindered, implementing a looting system that gives an impression it was created with the sole purpose of trolling players (cuz gem sop is where the fun’z to be had).

You people, really….

What are you even talking about? In Guild Wars 2, if you don’t spend any money at all, you can still play the game on an equal level to most other players.

With AA you’re screwed because no matter what you do as a free player, paying players have an advantage over you. And they can not only kill you, they can cause you to lose experience.

Some players are using stuns to prevent people from fighting mobs, so the mob kills them so they lose experience.

I’m not sure how that equate to Guild Wars 2 at all.

Guild Wars 2 is a buy to play game. You can buy it and play it. AA is advertised as a free to play game. It should have been called free to die.

KarlaGrey.5903:

How’s that any different from GW2 and it’s ‘friendly’ hinting to purchase gems and turn them into gold (as means of fighting the insane gold grind needed for the BiS, for example), meanwhile nerfing any and all farm spots, keeping TP flipping unhindered, implementing a loot system that gives an impression it was created with the sole purpose of trolling players (cuz gem sop is where the fun’z at).

You people, really….hi pot, meet kettle.

You obviously you have no clue how AA works.

GW2 is a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) which is shoved down your throat because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase. At least AA isn’t running on a make-believe b2p model. While GW2 might not be as restrictive as a sub/f2p games can be (AA included to an extent), it most certainly seems to be heading down that road. But instead of outright barring access from content, it sticks a price tag on BiS, or even the most desired runes sets/exotics – the SOLE difference is it will inconvenience you to an extent where you’l either go ‘fk it’ and leave, or buy gems to convert them to gold. I call that underhanded and it’s, in a way, far worse than a real f2p model.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Exactly it’s a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) that is showed down your throats because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase.

The labor point system in AA is by far the most insidious thing I’ve ever seen in an MMO. It’s set up so that they can really tweak it later on but even now, if you want to report a player for botting lets say, you’d have to spent 25 labor points.

It’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in a game.

I assume it’s such a good game, you’d rather be here posting than playing it. Oh, nevermind, you’re probably in the queue.

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

KarlaGrey.5903:

GW2 is a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) which is showed down your throat because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase. At least AA isn’t running on a make-believe b2p model. While GW2 might not be as restrictive as a sub/f2p games can be (AA included to an extent), it most certainly seems to be heading down that road. But instead of outright barring access from content, it sticks a price tag on BiS, or even the most desired runes sets/exotics – the SOLE difference is it will inconvenience you to an extent where you’l either go ‘fk it’ and leave, or buy gems to convert them to gold. I call that underhanded and it’s, in a way, far worse than a real f2p model.

You are right, AA doesnt have to pretend at anything, its straight P2W.

As i said, you have no clue how AA works so i can see you can easily be confused.

AA is the worst case scenario. "Sub"+invasive cash shop.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Ascended was a mistake on Anets part, thats true, but if you see getting ascended as “unreasonable” you should really try AA, it will make your head explode in comparison.

And yes, AA hides behind F2P as its wannabe sub+invasive cash shop game.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Unless they’re not truly free to play, and AA isn’t.

Anyway what BIS items in the cash shop are you talking about in Guild Wars 2?

wow, AA.

You people are giving me a very good laugh when you’re comparing Gw2 to AA :v

please, continue~

Vayne.8563:

The labor point system in AA is by far the most insidious thing I’ve ever seen in an MMO. It’s set up so that they can really tweak it later on but even now, if you want to report a player for botting lets say, you’d have to spent 25 labor points.

Apparently even use of the report function in AA requires labor points. lol
If you played the game, you would know that you get your labor points back with a bonus if the person is actually a bot and banned.

Vayne.8563:

With AA you’re screwed because no matter what you do as a free player, paying players have an advantage over you.

Sorry, but can you explain what the advantage a Patron has over a free-to-play player? A level 50 free-to-play player versus a Patron in equal gear are going to be on the exact same playing field.

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

Apparently even use of the report function in AA requires labor points. lol

If you played the game, you would know that you get your labor points back with a bonus if the person is actually a bot and banned.

Vayne.8563:

With AA you’re screwed because no matter what you do as a free player, paying players have an advantage over you.

Sorry, but can you explain what the advantage a Patron has over a free-to-play player? A level 50 free-to-play player versus a Patron in equal gear are going to be on the exact same playing field.

But since patrons can get to 50 faster and then make other people actually lose experience, in theory you can stop someone from getting to 50 for a much longer time, during which time you’re farming them.

My son is doing it. He’s been farming free players. He’s have a ball. The free players he’s farming? Not so much.

Edit: It’s become so bad, the community managers on the forums are asking people not to kill the free players. That should say something. Even AA knows it’s P2W. lol

MikaHR.1978:

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Ascended was a mistake on Anets part, thats true, but if you see getting ascended as “unreasonable” you should really try AA, it will make your head explode in comparison.

And yes, AA hides behind F2P as its wannabe sub+invasive cash shop game.

And GW2 is a wannabe b2p+invasive cash shop game.

But hey, at least you admit to the whole ascended fiasco, unlike certain other apologists.

And while content might not be directly locked out to players on GW2, the lack of a level-field in terms of gear in certain zones (most notably WvW, and the req for BiS in fractals), boils down to locked-out-of-content or get rolled (of course, you’re welcome to zerg all day long, or try your luck in yellows/random exotics…by all means do so and report back on how the experiment went).
Call it soft restriction, if you will, but it is still a restriction, and with a very clear intention.

Archache is just another Koreagrinder which people run to and come back after 1-2 months after they realize that nothing has changed in the MMO world. Let’s face it: yes GW2 lacks enough content (IMHO) a lot of content, but it does a lot of things right. It is if you check Metacritic still the best rated MMO in the past two years.

KarlaGrey.5903:

MikaHR.1978:

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Ascended was a mistake on Anets part, thats true, but if you see getting ascended as “unreasonable” you should really try AA, it will make your head explode in comparison.

And yes, AA hides behind F2P as its wannabe sub+invasive cash shop game.

And GW2 is a wannabe b2p+invasive cash shop game.

But hey, at least you admit to the whole ascended fiasco, unlike certain other apologists.

And while content might not be directly locked out to players on GW2, the lack of a level-field in terms of gear in certain zones (most notably WvW, and the req for BiS in fractals), boils down to locked-out-of-content or get rolled (of course, you’re welcome to zerg all day long, or try your luck in yellows/random exotics…by all means do so and report back on how the experiment went).
Call it soft restriction, if you will, but it is still a restriction, and with a very clear intention.

Yes, this game was predicated on the fact that you could spend time or money. It was said before launch. You can save lots of time, or you can save lots of money. I prefer to play games, even though I have the money so I don’t buy gems to sell for cash. Some people can only play a couple of hours a week, so they can choose instead to spend money not get stuff.

But since Anet did talk about this aspect before launch, I’m not sure you can say they’re pretending to be anything.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Archache is just another Koreagrinder which people run to and come back after 1-2 months after they realize that nothing has changed in the MMO world. Let’s face it: yes GW2 lacks enough content (IMHO) a lot of content, but it does a lot of things right. It is if you check Metacritic still the best rated MMO in the past two years.

Except for TSW.

Vayne.8563:

But since patrons can get to 50 faster and then make other people actually lose experience, in theory you can stop someone from getting to 50 for a much longer time, during which time you’re farming them.

The encounter you described has nothing to do with free to play versus patron. A free to play player can grief a patron the exact same way you’re describing. In practice, it’s not likely. If someone is really getting harassed to the point they are incapable of leveling, they should seek out a guild and make sure they don’t level alone. Leveling solo is never a good idea in an open-world PvP game.

Patrons level faster, both in 10% experience and through more use of their labor points. However, a free player in ArchAge can still reach level 50 (and many have) and experience some of what the game has to offer. The main reason free-to-play players have limited labor is because without it there would be hundreds of accounts being made funneling labor into one person.

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

MikaHR.1978:

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

Ascended was a mistake on Anets part, thats true, but if you see getting ascended as “unreasonable” you should really try AA, it will make your head explode in comparison.

And yes, AA hides behind F2P as its wannabe sub+invasive cash shop game.

And GW2 is a wannabe b2p+invasive cash shop game.

But hey, at least you admit to the whole ascended fiasco, unlike certain other apologists.

And while content might not be directly locked out to players on GW2, the lack of a level-field in terms of gear in certain zones (most notably WvW, and the req for BiS in fractals), boils down to locked-out-of-content or get rolled (of course, you’re welcome to zerg all day long, or try your luck in yellows/random exotics…by all means do so and report back on how the experiment went).
Call it soft restriction, if you will, but it is still a restriction, and with a very clear intention.

Yes, this game was predicated on the fact that you could spend time or money. It was said before launch. You can save lots of time, or you can save lots of money. I prefer to play games, even though I have the money so I don’t buy gems to sell for cash. Some people can only play a couple of hours a week, so they can choose instead to spend money not get stuff.

But since Anet did talk about this aspect before launch, I’m not sure you can say they’re pretending to be anything.

They are pretending to be a b2play game, when what they are is a free2play cash shop game, with an entry fee. The price of the game.

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

But since patrons can get to 50 faster and then make other people actually lose experience, in theory you can stop someone from getting to 50 for a much longer time, during which time you’re farming them.

The encounter you described has nothing to do with free to play versus patron. A free to play player can grief a patron the exact same way you’re describing. In practice, it’s not likely. If someone is really getting harassed to the point they are incapable of leveling, they should seek out a guild and make sure they don’t level alone. Leveling solo is never a good idea in an open-world PvP game.

Patrons level faster, both in 10% experience and through more use of their labor points. However, a free player in ArchAge can still reach level 50 (and many have) and experience some of what the game has to offer. The main reason free-to-play players have limited labor is because without it there would be hundreds of accounts being made funneling labor into one person.

Patrons leveled faster, so they’re higher levels, for one thing. And since a higher level character will almost always beat a lower level character…well, it’s okay it’s an open world PvP game. It’ll be an open world PvP game where big guilds dominate each server and only by joining one of those guilds will you ever have a real shot at playing…certainly for most people.

Most players don’t love being killed repeatedly and they leave games like that, which is why most MMOs have less PvP servers than PvE servers. AA isn’t a bad game (in spite of labor points which I can’t stand). Some features of the game are completely locked behind a pay wall. Want to use the auction house, sorry. Paying customers only. Oh, well you can buy a contract to use the auction house. That’s not free to play to me. And of course you can’t have a house unless you pay a sub.

To me, it’s dishonest advertising. AA will find it’s niche audience. But it’s not going to have a major affect on theme park MMOs.

Vayne.8563:

Yes, this game was predicated on the fact that you could spend time or money.

And that is the model which many f2p games operate under, with the other one being limited access to game features/content.

However you’re wrong in the part saying it was predicated on that fact – it was predicated on ‘no grind’ and ‘no gear threadmill’, both of which are but relics of the past now.

Nerelith.7360:

They are pretending to be a b2play game, when what they are is a free2play cash shop game, with an entry fee. The price of the game.

Exactly. It’s hilarious to see players defending that kind of misleading and outright dishonest business model, not to mention those buying into it and spending actual bucks on gems… no amount of facepalm can convey my sentiments on that ‘logic’.

All in all, it truly feels like an instance of a legalized rip-off .

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Exactly it’s a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) that is showed down your throats because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase.

The labor point system in AA is by far the most insidious thing I’ve ever seen in an MMO. It’s set up so that they can really tweak it later on but even now, if you want to report a player for botting lets say, you’d have to spent 25 labor points.

It’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in a game.

I assume it’s such a good game, you’d rather be here posting than playing it. Oh, nevermind, you’re probably in the queue.

I find it surprising that this thread has devolved to comparing Why GW2 isn’t working to AA, a PvP only game…

I still would like to know what ANet plans to do to keep me playing and spending money in the gem store. What’s the long-term plan here? Are we going to keep going with the LS? or Are we going to take a sharp left and focus on “an expansions worth of content”.

Whether you agree or not, for me, the living story stuff only gets me back for a couple hours at best. I like the creative map design of Dry Top, for sure, but there really isn’t much motivation to “grind” out geodes or foxfire clusters, nor are the RNG rewards that enticing either.

One of the biggest problems is in the design of the game at its core. It seems like it takes a pretty large amount of time to build a map along with events. So they might actually be stuck with keeping with these smaller jaunts going with LS. Sadly though, a sizable chunk of players aren’t all that engaged and don’t find it very entertaining.

I tend to agree with phys and others that have stated the need for smaller group, challenging content. I agree they did great with fractals, but that’s really just one area that’s engaging with less promise of wanted loot. That seems to take away from the experience. I mean, how many rings does a player need? Especially since they don’t have much value, if any.

When i think back to the original that kept me engaged for the better part of 7 years, i think about the challenges. Some of us spent our weekends practicing runs from beacons to droks or 2 man UW ecto farming, or sorrows furnace for greens they introduced. It was a simpler game, while not perfect, kept me engaged as content rolled out. Level 20 was just enough of an experience, since the content matched quite well to the cap and there was also ways to improve or modify your build to succeed. I was always excited to see what they would produce next.

So here we are, with a game that’s engaging for a smaller window of time, that seems to need a cash shop to keep running, but isn’t all that challenging or engaging post level cap. The discussion we should be having is where do we go from here, given the limits to the games base design and how long it seems to take to provide new engaging content for players to consume and get better at to complete.

munkiman.3068:

Vayne.8563:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Exactly it’s a b2p with an ig shop (meaning you’re paying double, basicaly) that is showed down your throats because the game design took a turn towards cannibilizing its playerbase (gold grind everywhere and few means to obtain the gold at a moderately normal pace without using the suggested methods).

In a way, it’s even funnier than an outright f2p game with a sub or ig shop, given it’s ‘sneaky’ turn to the gem shop, on top of the box purchase.

The labor point system in AA is by far the most insidious thing I’ve ever seen in an MMO. It’s set up so that they can really tweak it later on but even now, if you want to report a player for botting lets say, you’d have to spent 25 labor points.

It’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen in a game.

I assume it’s such a good game, you’d rather be here posting than playing it. Oh, nevermind, you’re probably in the queue.

I find it surprising that this thread has devolved to comparing Why GW2 isn’t working to AA, a PvP only game…

I still would like to know what ANet plans to do to keep me playing and spending money in the gem store. What’s the long-term plan here? Are we going to keep going with the LS? or Are we going to take a sharp left and focus on “an expansions worth of content”.

Whether you agree or not, for me, the living story stuff only get’s me back for a couple hours at best. I like the creative map design of Dry Top, for sure, but there really isn’t much motivation to “grind” out geodes or foxfire clusters, nor are the RNG rewards that enticing either.

One of the biggest problems is in the design of the game at its core. It seems like it takes a pretty large amount of time to build a map along with events. So they might actually be stuck with keeping with these smaller jaunts going with LS. Sadly though, a sizable chunk of players aren’t all that engaged and don’t find it very entertaining.

I tend to agree with phys and others that have stated the need for smaller group, challenging content. I agree they did great with fractals, but that’s really just one area that’s engaging with less promise of wanted loot. That seems to take away from the experience. I mean, how many rings does a player need? Especially since they don’t have much value, if any.

When i think back to the original that kept me engaged for the better part of 7 years, i think about the challenges. Some of us spent our weekends practicing runs from beacons to droks or 2 man UW ecto farming, or sorrows furnace for greens they introduced. It was a simpler game, while not perfect, kept me engaged as content rolled out. Level 20 was just enough of an experience, since the content matched quite well to the cap and there was also ways to improve or modify your build to succeed. I was always excited to see what they would produce next.

So here we are, with a game that’s engaging for a smaller window of time, that seems to need a cash shop to keep running, but isn’t all that challenging or engaging post level cap. The discussion we should be having is where do we go from here, given the limits to the games base design and how long it seems to take to provide new engaging content for players to consume and get better at to complete.

You have valid points. The game is going to need an influx of content to keep people playing, at least people who play a lot.

As for comparing it to AA, I certainly didn’t start that. But I’ll certainly make sure that people who are listening know both sides of that tale.

Vayne.8563:

Patrons leveled faster, so they’re higher levels, for one thing.

A higher level player can potentially beat a lower level player. Patrons can potentially level faster than free-to-play players. However, it is fallacious to assume (or, as you are doing, to espouse) that the potential to do something assures the actuality of it happening. Depending on the level difference, the lower level might win just as the playtime of both will determine who will level faster.

All I have to say is, if you think ArchAge is a pay-to-win game, then you’re lucky that you’ve never actually played a game where you can actually buy power. (Maplestory anyone?)

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

Patrons leveled faster, so they’re higher levels, for one thing.

Yes. A higher level player will beat a lower level player. Patrons can potentially level faster than free-to-play players. However, it is fallacious to assume (or, as you are doing, to espouse) that the potential to do something assures the actuality of it happening.

All I have to say is, if you think ArchAge is a pay-to-win game, then you’re lucky that you’ve never actually played a game where you can actually buy power. (Maplestory anyone?)

There are certainly levels of pay to win, no question about it. Maplestory is a pay 2 win game too. But since major features of Archeage are locked out to free players (hell selling on the trading post, really), I don’t consider the game free to play. It’s at best free to try.

Do you know why it’s free to play? Because in Korea when it was pay to play, no one played it, and eventually it had to go free to play there to get players.

At any rate, there’s not point in talking about it anymore, since the Archeage forum is that way. —-→

ProtoGunner.4953:

Archache is just another Koreagrinder which people run to and come back after 1-2 months after they realize that nothing has changed in the MMO world. Let’s face it: yes GW2 lacks enough content (IMHO) a lot of content, but it does a lot of things right. It is if you check Metacritic still the best rated MMO in the past two years.

The thing is most people writing here have no clue how AA works. But thats not unusual occurance, just look at how many missguided posts were made about NPE (which you could check out in 20-30 mins), many by these same posters, they dont care about facts, unfortunately (for them), them comapring AA and GW2 really sheds the light how missguided they are.

But anyway, anyone can try AA and see for themselves, VERY FAST, but its really not first game of that kind.

GW2 has one of least invasive cash shop in industry and no sub. It goes as far as lot of people complain theres “really nothing of interest in cash shop, just fluff”.

Saying that without using GW2 cash shop you cannot “compete”….well, i encourage them to play true P2W game (AA included) since it seems they have 0 experience in that area.

KarlaGrey.5903:

I consider putting ludicrius price tags on desired/BiS items as means to stimulate ig shop sales in a b2p game – rather than having them obtainable from playing the game alone in a reasonable amount of time – by far more* insidious.
But hey, you ‘like the game, and as such willingly ignore all the wad of bad’.

F2p games at least don’t hide behind underhanded and outright misleading business models.

actually arenanet didnt put a ludicrius price tag on BiS items… Players did.
Actually Arenanet tried to limit that by making most of the times required for those BiS account bound and non trade-able.

Those BiS items arent a big deal anyway. In other games no BiS it means certain death in PvP, Unable to do the latest PvE content etc.. In Gw2 its entirely optional. The only miniscule effect it has is in WvW.. why miniscule? its 10%… if your entire server has no ascended gear while the enemy server all have ascended gear it would be something like coming across 10 vs 11 in WvW.. without a gear imbalance I am sure we all have taken part in battles with far worst odds then that and sometimes won as well.

if Arenanet wanted to stimulate gem shop sales at all costs they’re really doing a bad job in my opinion. Just look around at other games… selling game functionality, selling content, even selling UI elements… What are Arenanet selling thats so bad? time shortcuts for people who just cant seem to wait a few weeks to get their reward.

Iirc the discussions on why the prices went soaring the way they did most definitely did not boil down to ‘it was all the players’ fault’, but I will not be browsing the past threads atm to find the exact quotes in support…let’s just say that nerfing farm spots repeatedly, promoting gem to gold exchange, and continually increasing the RNG did in no way help deflate the skyrocketing costs, however.

Pretty sure running on yellows or random exotics in wvw (and the higher difficulty dungeons, let alone fractals) spells certain death for most (especially outside the zerg), but in particular for beginners/casuals who aren’t likely to undergo the horrid gold grind associated with the ascended, or even the exotics together with the meta runes.
Good thing the pvp is more-or-less a level playing field..sort of (hello recent unlucks).

Nokaru.7831:

Vayne.8563:

But since patrons can get to 50 faster and then make other people actually lose experience, in theory you can stop someone from getting to 50 for a much longer time, during which time you’re farming them.

The encounter you described has nothing to do with free to play versus patron. A free to play player can grief a patron the exact same way you’re describing. In practice, it’s not likely. If someone is really getting harassed to the point they are incapable of leveling, they should seek out a guild and make sure they don’t level alone. Leveling solo is never a good idea in an open-world PvP game.

Patrons level faster, both in 10% experience and through more use of their labor points. However, a free player in ArchAge can still reach level 50 (and many have) and experience some of what the game has to offer. The main reason free-to-play players have limited labor is because without it there would be hundreds of accounts being made funneling labor into one person.

I would not really call AA pay to win but subscribing does give you a big advantage, one that in time you can make up for mind you but until then you’ll be at a distinct disadvantage.

Its not just leveling but also gearing up.. crafting is the main source for gear and equipement and to craft you need resources that you have to grow. as a subscriber you can craft about 4x as much stuff as a free player (based on 8hrs game time per day and 16hrs offline) as you get 4x as much labor points per day. You can grow your resources in safety ensuring you get 100% yield back when grown.)

as a free player you not only are 4x slower at crafting then a payed player but stuff is much more expensive for you to craft as the resources you grow dont give you 100% yield back since other players can steal them. At best it will take you 4x as much time to get to par with a subscriber but in truth it will likely take twice that or more. during that time subscribers have time to consolidate their position build bigger fleets, get more gear and all of that. Thats not to say you can never get there eventually you will but it will take a long long while to beat all those advantages.

again I wouldnt go as far as calling it pay to win but free vs paid is no walk in the park

KarlaGrey.5903:

Pretty sure yellows, random exotics in wvw (and the higher difficulty dungeons, let alone fractals) spell certain death for most, but in particular for beginners/casuals who aren’t likely to undergo the horrid gold grind associated with the ascended, or even the exotics together with the meta runes.
Good thing the pvp is more-or-less a level playing field..sort of (hello recent unlucks).

I dont know, I never had Ascended gear in WvW and I never came across this certain death. I dont pvp much but I’ve been playing WvW again for this trounament and even without a single piece of Ascended gear I had finished by 50 monthly kills with something in between 5-10 deaths. Again not a pvp player here, someone with experience I am sure can do much better then I did.

Also you mention horrid gold grind… I think thats a major issue right there. why go for gold instead of the actually materials! People know People are just impatient and exploit that by selling ascended gear related materials at sky high prices. I always found gathering the actual material way more time effective.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Pretty sure running on yellows or random exotics in wvw (and the higher difficulty dungeons, let alone fractals) spells certain death for most (especially outside the zerg), but in particular for beginners/casuals who aren’t likely to undergo the horrid gold grind associated with the ascended, or even the exotics together with the meta runes.
Good thing the pvp is more-or-less a level playing field..sort of (hello recent unlucks).

Uh oh, if thats the case ascended wont help either. Thats matter of skill not gear.

What are you saying, bad players need bigger crutch (please leave casuals out of it, youre clearly talking about BAD players)

And really, with all venues you can get exotics, really, “horrible grind”? And i really think you dont understand the difference between “speed runners” and the rest. You can run dungeons just fine in rares/random exotics.

Vayne.8563:

It’s at best free to try.

That’s what it is: Free to try. I don’t agree with your assertion of pay-to-win though.

Vayne.8563:

Do you know why it’s free to play? Because in Korea when it was pay to play, no one played it, and eventually it had to go free to play there to get players.

New subscription-based MMOs do not succeed anymore, especially in the east and especially in Korea; free-to-play is much bigger there than it is in the west. I don’t even know why you’re bringing this up because this wouldn’t be the first MMO to retrofit itself into a free-to-play model after its failure to recoup development costs under a subscription.