Guild Wars 2

page fix buggin out

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Wanze.8410:

But as JS pointed out, he hasnt seen a good argument to change the status quo, so please invent a better car first before saying the current one is flawed.

The argument to change the status quo would be that the current system economically favors players choosing heavy armor classes over those who choose light armor classes. What is the economic reason for this? Why would it not make the game better to make the two fairly similar? This does not even require a change in supply, demand, or price for silk. Why not (for example) increase the demand for leather or ore or decrease the supply of each until the cost of ascended armor for the three tiers are similar?

Like I said before, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t speculate in any of these markets nor do I have a preference for a particular class nor have I bothered to buy ascended armor. I am just really curious what is the method to ANet’s madness here.

The groundwork was already laid with regular armorcrafting since launch, defining which ressources are used for which armor class.

And you cant just re-balance mayor parts of the economy just to keep all 3 materials at the same price.

Silks only faucet is ascended crafting (for all 3 classes), t5 leather only has 1 class to supply and bows, mithril only has 1 armor class to supply, but weapons for all, plus a massive sink in crafting rare weapons for the forge. If they decide to bring mithril up to silk prices (from 0.5-2s) it would mean that every crafted rare greatsword will cost 36s more. This would add a couple of hundred gold to the value of every precursor.

Its a fool´s errand trying to make each class the same economically because it doesnt just evolve around ascended crafting.
As I mentioned before, a heavy class needs to obtain 11 different weapons to fully experience the diversity of 1 stat, while the build diversity for engies or eles comes from changing kits and attunements, they only need to obtain 4-5 different weapons.
Light and medium exotic armor is about 10% cheaper to craft than heavy exotic armor of the same stat, while a roaming zerker thief needs to pay twice as much for his exotic armor than a warrior in soldier gear. And the Ele is shafted anyways because he needs to craft celestial and use one of the most expensive runes in game.

There will always be a cost disparity between classes for certain (meta) builds.
But those costs are the same for every player that chooses to make that build on the same class.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

its very reasonable(reason dictates that you look out for your own best interests), but its also a very bad mechanism for deciding whats good for the game.

essentially, its short sighted. silk being unbalanced in design is not improving the game.

It’s simply a matter of perspective. Yours is from the POV of a light armor user trying to make ascended gear. Mine would be more along the lines of providing goods to people on the market. Anet has MANY perspectives. The difference is that I trust that Anet uses all the perspectives they can think of to make a reasonable decision on how the game should work and I have no reason to think that hasn’t been done here. I don’t trust players to think like that, not even myself.

Silk isn’t unbalanced in design because light users need more of it for ascended gear. That’s a very limited aspect of it’s uses, that statement borders completely ambiguous to me. Seems to me you’re just cherry picking silk use in ascended as SPECIFIC example to make your perspective on the topic seems like the only meaningful one, therefore making is seem the resulting conclusion that silk relation to ascended armor is wrong to be obvious. Not everyone is fooled by this.

I have to parrot JS here. we got 8 pages and nothing compelling to indicate a change is needed here. Price isn’t a problem. He’s also said little about the unbalance between silk in light vs. other armors. Changing that is not an economic issue, it’s purely conceptual.

Its not really about me getting cloth cheaper, its about having a good design. I dont really intrinsicly trust that anyone is anything. Going off of the history of the game, anet has made some misteps.

Yes of course … no reason to trust Anet. The average forum poster has a way more indepth knowledge of good MMO design than any experienced developer of MMO’s made up of teams of knowledgeable, experienced people with a game concept … PUHLEASSE!!! That’s nonsense and its make us all dumber for reading it.

This is NOT about good design because frankly, I doubt you or most of the other people posting here have any clue about what makes good design, especially in online RPG games. Trying to paint this as anything BUT a cost issue is just lying. If that’s true in your case, then you are an exception. Other people care WAY more about the cost difference for light armor ascended than they do of some notion that this needs to be changed in the name of good game design. What a crock.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

its very reasonable(reason dictates that you look out for your own best interests), but its also a very bad mechanism for deciding whats good for the game.

essentially, its short sighted. silk being unbalanced in design is not improving the game.

It’s simply a matter of perspective. Yours is from the POV of a light armor user trying to make ascended gear. Mine would be more along the lines of providing goods to people on the market. Anet has MANY perspectives. The difference is that I trust that Anet uses all the perspectives they can think of to make a reasonable decision on how the game should work and I have no reason to think that hasn’t been done here. I don’t trust players to think like that, not even myself.

Silk isn’t unbalanced in design because light users need more of it for ascended gear. That’s a very limited aspect of it’s uses, that statement borders completely ambiguous to me. Seems to me you’re just cherry picking silk use in ascended as SPECIFIC example to make your perspective on the topic seems like the only meaningful one, therefore making is seem the resulting conclusion that silk relation to ascended armor is wrong to be obvious. Not everyone is fooled by this.

I have to parrot JS here. we got 8 pages and nothing compelling to indicate a change is needed here. Price isn’t a problem. He’s also said little about the unbalance between silk in light vs. other armors. Changing that is not an economic issue, it’s purely conceptual.

Its not really about me getting cloth cheaper, its about having a good design. I dont really intrinsicly trust that anyone is anything. Going off of the history of the game, anet has made some misteps.

Yes of course … no reason to trust Anet. The average forum poster has a way more indepth knowledge of good MMO design than any experienced developer of MMO’s made up of teams of knowledgeable, experienced people with a game concept … PUHLEASSE!!! That’s nonsense and its make us all dumber for reading it.

This is NOT about good design because frankly, I doubt you or most of the other people posting here have any clue about what makes good design, especially in online RPG games. Trying to paint this as anything BUT a cost issue is just lying. If that’s true in your case, then you are an exception. Other people care WAY more about the cost difference for light armor ascended than they do of some notion that this needs to be changed in the name of good game design. What a crock.

Im not telling you to trust me either. Im saying evaluate all ideas based on the ideas, and your experience, not the the person who gives you the idea.

And you still dont have to do that. You can believe whatever you want.

But recognize that in a discussion, or a debate, or logical deduction, This is what “X” thinks is not enough on its own.

Wanze.8410:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Wanze.8410:

But as JS pointed out, he hasnt seen a good argument to change the status quo, so please invent a better car first before saying the current one is flawed.

The argument to change the status quo would be that the current system economically favors players choosing heavy armor classes over those who choose light armor classes. What is the economic reason for this? Why would it not make the game better to make the two fairly similar? This does not even require a change in supply, demand, or price for silk. Why not (for example) increase the demand for leather or ore or decrease the supply of each until the cost of ascended armor for the three tiers are similar?

Like I said before, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t speculate in any of these markets nor do I have a preference for a particular class nor have I bothered to buy ascended armor. I am just really curious what is the method to ANet’s madness here.

The groundwork was already laid with regular armorcrafting since launch, defining which ressources are used for which armor class.

And you cant just re-balance mayor parts of the economy just to keep all 3 materials at the same price.

Silks only faucet is ascended crafting (for all 3 classes), t5 leather only has 1 class to supply and bows, mithril only has 1 armor class to supply, but weapons for all, plus a massive sink in crafting rare weapons for the forge. If they decide to bring mithril up to silk prices (from 0.5-2s) it would mean that every crafted rare greatsword will cost 36s more. This would add a couple of hundred gold to the value of every precursor.

Its a fool´s errand trying to make each class the same economically because it doesnt just evolve around ascended crafting.
As I mentioned before, a heavy class needs to obtain 11 different weapons to fully experience the diversity of 1 stat, while the build diversity for engies or eles comes from changing kits and attunements, they only need to obtain 4-5 different weapons.
Light and medium exotic armor is about 10% cheaper to craft than heavy exotic armor of the same stat, while a roaming zerker thief needs to pay twice as much for his exotic armor than a warrior in soldier gear. And the Ele is shafted anyways because he needs to craft celestial and use one of the most expensive runes in game.

There will always be a cost disparity between classes for certain (meta) builds.
But those costs are the same for every player that chooses to make that build on the same class.

but it was flawed since launch, and building on that structure caused the same problems, but magnified it.

phys.7689:

but it was flawed since launch, and building on that structure caused the same problems, but magnified it.

Ok ok ok. The system isn’t perfect. However, I would like to hear, in your own words, how you define what a flaw is. Then using that definition, point out exactly where the flaws are.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Aberrant.6749:

The price of scraps has been higher in the past. It’s at about the same price as it was July 9th 2014. Seems like a normal fluctuation to me.

As far as why it takes so many more scraps idk, I didn’t agree with it back when they changed it, but I remember reading that it wasn’t a mistake. I don’t see why it should change now that so many have invested the time and resources to make cloth armor.

The drop rates on cloth do increase with various events (wintersday gave them out from the dusty clothes for example). Too expensive for you right now? Just wait and see what the next event brings and save your gold. The stat difference between exotic and ascended armor is very small anyways.

im starting to realize, that most of the people disagreeing with fixing silk/ascended, are basically just trying to protect their current racket.

Is that so unreasonable? The people wanting it changed are protecting their own interests as well. If you’re an astute light armor users … you ALSO benefit from silk prices.

its very reasonable(reason dictates that you look out for your own best interests), but its also a very bad mechanism for deciding whats good for the game.

essentially, its short sighted. silk being unbalanced in design is not improving the game.

It’s simply a matter of perspective. Yours is from the POV of a light armor user trying to make ascended gear. Mine would be more along the lines of providing goods to people on the market. Anet has MANY perspectives. The difference is that I trust that Anet uses all the perspectives they can think of to make a reasonable decision on how the game should work and I have no reason to think that hasn’t been done here. I don’t trust players to think like that, not even myself.

Silk isn’t unbalanced in design because light users need more of it for ascended gear. That’s a very limited aspect of it’s uses, that statement borders completely ambiguous to me. Seems to me you’re just cherry picking silk use in ascended as SPECIFIC example to make your perspective on the topic seems like the only meaningful one, therefore making is seem the resulting conclusion that silk relation to ascended armor is wrong to be obvious. Not everyone is fooled by this.

I have to parrot JS here. we got 8 pages and nothing compelling to indicate a change is needed here. Price isn’t a problem. He’s also said little about the unbalance between silk in light vs. other armors. Changing that is not an economic issue, it’s purely conceptual.

Its not really about me getting cloth cheaper, its about having a good design. I dont really intrinsicly trust that anyone is anything. Going off of the history of the game, anet has made some misteps.

Yes of course … no reason to trust Anet. The average forum poster has a way more indepth knowledge of good MMO design than any experienced developer of MMO’s made up of teams of knowledgeable, experienced people with a game concept … PUHLEASSE!!! That’s nonsense and its make us all dumber for reading it.

This is NOT about good design because frankly, I doubt you or most of the other people posting here have any clue about what makes good design, especially in online RPG games. Trying to paint this as anything BUT a cost issue is just lying. If that’s true in your case, then you are an exception. Other people care WAY more about the cost difference for light armor ascended than they do of some notion that this needs to be changed in the name of good game design. What a crock.

You don’t have to be an expert to recognize a bad deal when you see one. No one does.

phys.7689:

before you can build a better car you must first
1)acknowledge/identifity the problems, or shortcomings of the current car
2)hypothesize various solutions
3)test the solutions, find problems, correct problems
4)release a better car.

this discussion is still in 1 and 2 phase, mostly in the 1) phase.
it does no good if your primary argument for why the current system is a good design, is that it is the current system.

Well, for the price of silk, i think we already went through all phases.
Last Summer, when silk was at its peak, many people complained about it and even I agree that it was too high. ANd even though Anet didnt acknowledge that there was a problem, I think internally they agreed, hypothesized solutions and implemented/tested them during season 2, which resulted in silk losing 50% of its value in 4 months.
Now they know what to do, if the silk price rises again.

So I am sure whenever Anet thinks that there is a problem with the silk price, they will have solutions ready.

The problem with this discussion at this point is that different people see different problems.
Silk price is/was certainly one but i think Anet got this covered and direct nodes/farming options arent neccessary, especially because if it goes sideways and silk plummets to a value that Anet isnt comfortable with anymore, it will be way harder to fix because you have to either take the direct farm away again (which is easily done when indirect supply was added temporarily through festivals for example) or rebalance all indirect sources of silk and they are plentiful.

Another problem that came up frequently is the general price on ascended gear (with damask being the main cost). Since Anet made asc gear account bound after use, that price got more bearable but in general, i think Anet is fine with the general price point of ascended gear. So bringing the price of damask to deldrimor/leather levels isnt really an option for them.

The 3rd problem that occurs is the extended timegate on light armor. That is even in my opinion a valid problem and should be looked into. But as John said, no good solution for that has been suggested.

tigirius.9014:

You don’t have to be an expert to recognize a bad deal when you see one. No one does.

Again, that’s just a LACK of expertise and perspective that leads you to that conclusion. I can understand why expensive silk is a GREAT deal for certain people ingame. The challenge for the devs is to see ALL of those angles and choose the one that fits the game the best. This is not a black/white issue and the solution isn’t just some trivial change. There might not even be a solution if it’s not perceived as a problem for the devs. Think about that.

Obtena.7952:

tigirius.9014:

You don’t have to be an expert to recognize a bad deal when you see one. No one does.

Again, that’s just a LACK of expertise and perspective that leads you to that conclusion. I can understand why expensive silk is a GREAT deal for people ingame. The challenge for the devs is to see ALL of those angles and choose the one that fits the game the best. This is not a black/white issue and the solution isn’t just some trivial change. There might not even be a solution if it’s not perceived as a problem for the devs. Think about that.

No it’s not it’s simple recognition of a bad deal. Quit trying to validate your point by making wild assumptions about people. It’s quite black and white. Every major MMO economy out there has displayed this kind of behavior until those other developers learned from experience what NOT to do. This is what NOT to do and Arenanet despite their immense experience as you like to call it, has had a history of doing what they shouldn’t be doing.

I suppose you’ll be telling us all next how much DR has helped the community, how DR the one thing that has destroyed whole MMO companies because it does exactly what it’s doing in this game (Creating unlucky accounts) is somehow a benefit too right? smh…. Cmon now, common sense please.

tigirius.9014:

Obtena.7952:

tigirius.9014:

You don’t have to be an expert to recognize a bad deal when you see one. No one does.

Again, that’s just a LACK of expertise and perspective that leads you to that conclusion. I can understand why expensive silk is a GREAT deal for people ingame. The challenge for the devs is to see ALL of those angles and choose the one that fits the game the best. This is not a black/white issue and the solution isn’t just some trivial change. There might not even be a solution if it’s not perceived as a problem for the devs. Think about that.

No it’s not it’s simple recognition of a bad deal. Quit trying to validate your point by making wild assumptions about people.

I’m not making wild assumptions about people; it’s common sense. There are people that love expensive silk because they don’t need it, they sell it. If you can’t even recognize this, you’re hardly qualified to understand the complexity of what is being discussed here and puts your opinion in question.

tigirius.9014:

Obtena.7952:

tigirius.9014:

You don’t have to be an expert to recognize a bad deal when you see one. No one does.

Again, that’s just a LACK of expertise and perspective that leads you to that conclusion. I can understand why expensive silk is a GREAT deal for people ingame. The challenge for the devs is to see ALL of those angles and choose the one that fits the game the best. This is not a black/white issue and the solution isn’t just some trivial change. There might not even be a solution if it’s not perceived as a problem for the devs. Think about that.

No it’s not it’s simple recognition of a bad deal. Quit trying to validate your point by making wild assumptions about people. It’s quite black and white. Every major MMO economy out there has displayed this kind of behavior until those other developers learned from experience what NOT to do. This is what NOT to do and Arenanet despite their immense experience as you like to call it, has had a history of doing what they shouldn’t be doing.

I suppose you’ll be telling us all next how much DR has helped the community, how DR the one thing that has destroyed whole MMO companies because it does exactly what it’s doing in this game (Creating unlucky accounts) is somehow a benefit too right? smh…. Cmon now, common sense please.

Wow. It’s ironic that you say DR destroys MMOs, when it’s one of the key mechanics that keeps inflation in check. You have no idea how bad this economy would be if I could farm the same amount of stuff 24/7, with no slow downs what-so-ever.

What does destroy MMOs are players who feel Entitled to getting the best stuff, when they want it. I would personally love it if I could get Dusk each time I threw in 4 rare Greatswords, or knew exactly how many tries it would take to guaranteed a drop. If we players got what we wanted all the time, this game would be dead within the first year. There’d be no replay value, much like using cheat codes on a single player game.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

tigirius.9014:

Obtena.7952:

tigirius.9014:

You don’t have to be an expert to recognize a bad deal when you see one. No one does.

Again, that’s just a LACK of expertise and perspective that leads you to that conclusion. I can understand why expensive silk is a GREAT deal for people ingame. The challenge for the devs is to see ALL of those angles and choose the one that fits the game the best. This is not a black/white issue and the solution isn’t just some trivial change. There might not even be a solution if it’s not perceived as a problem for the devs. Think about that.

No it’s not it’s simple recognition of a bad deal. Quit trying to validate your point by making wild assumptions about people. It’s quite black and white. Every major MMO economy out there has displayed this kind of behavior until those other developers learned from experience what NOT to do. This is what NOT to do and Arenanet despite their immense experience as you like to call it, has had a history of doing what they shouldn’t be doing.

I suppose you’ll be telling us all next how much DR has helped the community, how DR the one thing that has destroyed whole MMO companies because it does exactly what it’s doing in this game (Creating unlucky accounts) is somehow a benefit too right? smh…. Cmon now, common sense please.

Wow. It’s ironic that you say DR destroys MMOs, when it’s one of the key mechanics that keeps inflation in check. You have no idea how bad this economy would be if I could farm the same amount of stuff 24/7, with no slow downs what-so-ever.

What does destroy MMOs are players who feel Entitled to getting the best stuff, when they want it. I would personally love it if I could get Dusk each time I threw in 4 rare Greatswords, or knew exactly how many tries it would take to guaranteed a drop. If we players got what we wanted all the time, this game would be dead within the first year. There’d be no replay value, much like using cheat codes on a single player game.

Exactly where has it kept anything in check in this run away crazy train of an economy? Where? By your logic it would have corrected everything all by itself and there would have never been a need ever for their continued efforts of nerfing known places to farm items.

If DR did it’s job according to you, there would have never been any need.

The next myth you’ll tell us is that it’s prevented all chinese gold farmers from ever logging in. smh Amazes me what people believe sometimes.

It’s done 0 for the economy the economy was perfectly fine before two things happened to this game, the allowance for multiple accounts to end up with not one but multiple precursors during the island event without a rollback, and the creation of DR + the ongoing attacks against legit farmers.

That’s led to the type of economy and the TP centric nature of this game it’s not the other way around mate sorry.

This game was ALWAYS meant to be TP centric. It’s not the result of design decisions making that the case, it’s the fundamental pillar intended to work as such. Also, if IIRC, this game has ALWAYS has DR right from release; it was never something introduced part way through to ‘screw legitimate farmers’. It’s things like this that really question your understanding of the game and the legitimacy of your statements.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

before you can build a better car you must first
1)acknowledge/identifity the problems, or shortcomings of the current car
2)hypothesize various solutions
3)test the solutions, find problems, correct problems
4)release a better car.

this discussion is still in 1 and 2 phase, mostly in the 1) phase.
it does no good if your primary argument for why the current system is a good design, is that it is the current system.

Well, for the price of silk, i think we already went through all phases.
Last Summer, when silk was at its peak, many people complained about it and even I agree that it was too high. ANd even though Anet didnt acknowledge that there was a problem, I think internally they agreed, hypothesized solutions and implemented/tested them during season 2, which resulted in silk losing 50% of its value in 4 months.
Now they know what to do, if the silk price rises again.

So I am sure whenever Anet thinks that there is a problem with the silk price, they will have solutions ready.

The problem with this discussion at this point is that different people see different problems.
Silk price is/was certainly one but i think Anet got this covered and direct nodes/farming options arent neccessary, especially because if it goes sideways and silk plummets to a value that Anet isnt comfortable with anymore, it will be way harder to fix because you have to either take the direct farm away again (which is easily done when indirect supply was added temporarily through festivals for example) or rebalance all indirect sources of silk and they are plentiful.

Another problem that came up frequently is the general price on ascended gear (with damask being the main cost). Since Anet made asc gear account bound after use, that price got more bearable but in general, i think Anet is fine with the general price point of ascended gear. So bringing the price of damask to deldrimor/leather levels isnt really an option for them.

The 3rd problem that occurs is the extended timegate on light armor. That is even in my opinion a valid problem and should be looked into. But as John said, no good solution for that has been suggested.

anets solution for silk did not solve the imbalance in t5 item prices, it eased the difference.

silk still costs tremedously more than other tier 5 basic materials
silk still costs more than many fine materials
silk is more expensive than a gossamer scrap (kitten! i rolled a rare gossamer salvage)

all of these are indicators that silks prices are not in line with its relative designed value.

essentially if silk is at the right price point, everything else is at the wrong price point.

which means relatively speaking, silk is not in a good place.

so why not have everything go up in value to match silk? well its hard to say how that would pan out, because while people right now, could definately not afford it, if everything was more valuable they might. But if making the items more valuable is centered around increasing grind, i dont think that is the best solution.

Wanze.8410:

The 3rd problem that occurs is the extended timegate on light armor. That is even in my opinion a valid problem and should be looked into. But as John said, no good solution for that has been suggested.

I think i got a discussable solution for the extended timegate for light armor:

Right now, an ascended light armor set needs 36 days because it needs 36 damask.
Medium only needs 24 days and heavy needs 25 days.

But if we raise the daily crafting limit of damask to 2 bolts, light armor only needs 18 days.

Medium armor will only need 12 days to craft the damask but also 18 days for the elonian leather.

Heavy Armor will need 13 days for damask but 16 days for deldrimor ingots.

That will bring the timegate pretty much in line for each armor class. Heavy needs 2 days less but considering all the ingots you will need for your weapons, they are probably a little worse off then medium/light but not as much as light is now compared to the other two.

So its timegates all balanced out. Is it worth implementing?
I dont think so because most people will have trouble getting enough silk per day to craft 2 bolts.

And if they have enough gold to do so, they can buy additional damask on the tp already, negating the timegate.

So its back to point 1: Is the extra timegate on light armor really a problem right now?
How much players will actually craft their light armor faster, if you can craft 2 bolts of damask per day?
This change will only affect players that will be able earn around 20-25 gold per day to afford 2 bolts of damask, unless its price gets greatly reduced.

And even if people could afford to craft 1 armor set in 18 days, they will have to earn 30 laurels as well in the same time, just for the armor. Then you need 10-30 laurels for your weapon recipes. Plus laurels for your trinkets, at least 20 for the amulet, if you get rings and accessoires by other means.

So this will balance out the timegate between armor classes but in the long run, wont change the game time that most people need to craft 1 set.

Every armor needs cloth. For insignias and the inner layer.
There is basically nothing else to do with it, except for crafting bags and some runes.

Still, I don’t really see why a mat-sink should be such a strong argument for the current system. If a sink is that important, can someone explain to me why the situation with leather is as it is? Look at the prices.
One example:
I leveled my leatherworker from 400 to 500 and crafted the elonian leathersquares for my first gift of blades.
Both in the same time and for less gold than it cost me to craft my first ascended light chestpiece on a tailor that had been on lvl 500 prior to that.

Sinking silk is the reason?

Somehow I can’t believe that the developers who design the recipes and the experts on economy like John Smith, would fully ignore the situation with leather, while implementing a massive sink for silk.
Leather has even less uses than cloth and is oversupplied to almost no end.
In that light I can’t see the argument of a silk-sink as something valid.

For me the whole situation gives off the impression that it was an attempt to highten the price/effort for ascended armor, by increasing the cost for the only material required for all three armors. The well-meant idea to make ascended armor something special that meant you achieved something.

A system “working as intended”, “flawless”? But working against all the other systems that made sure that neither your choice of race or profession would impact anything else than your playstyle or bring up any significant benefits or handicaps to your gameplay? Such as Fractals with their agony-resistance?

As for solutions…

Someone suggests that elonian leather becomes a more substantial part of the recipes for all ascended armors and people who are advocating for the current system interject: “Not everyone can craft it.”
Someone says that silk is harder to acquire, since it can’t be gathered from nodes like mithril and elder wood logs, but is gated behind an rng-number for light armor, salvage items and bags. People who are advocating for the current system interject: “You can still buy it on the BLTC.”

Huh?!
It’s an argument that a tradeable crafting material can’t be crafted, while it’s an argument that you can always buy the materials you can’t acquire in a specific way?

But wait, there’s more:

People suggest that nodes for cloth are implemented and people who are advocating for the current system interject that such nodes, together with the current drop-rates, would bring down the silk-prices to vendor-value.

People say that the current ascended recipes are imbalanced, people who are advocating for the current system bring up that in the exotic tier, the heavy armor is far more expensive.

Guess what: Because a material that can be gathered from nodes, salvaged from multiple items and drops from bags, is the most expensive crafting material in the exotic tier.

And the grand finale to it:
phys is being accused of having a “made up mind”.

I’d like to cite John Smith:
I want to live in the world you live in.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

before you can build a better car you must first
1)acknowledge/identifity the problems, or shortcomings of the current car
2)hypothesize various solutions
3)test the solutions, find problems, correct problems
4)release a better car.

this discussion is still in 1 and 2 phase, mostly in the 1) phase.
it does no good if your primary argument for why the current system is a good design, is that it is the current system.

Well, for the price of silk, i think we already went through all phases.
Last Summer, when silk was at its peak, many people complained about it and even I agree that it was too high. ANd even though Anet didnt acknowledge that there was a problem, I think internally they agreed, hypothesized solutions and implemented/tested them during season 2, which resulted in silk losing 50% of its value in 4 months.
Now they know what to do, if the silk price rises again.

So I am sure whenever Anet thinks that there is a problem with the silk price, they will have solutions ready.

The problem with this discussion at this point is that different people see different problems.
Silk price is/was certainly one but i think Anet got this covered and direct nodes/farming options arent neccessary, especially because if it goes sideways and silk plummets to a value that Anet isnt comfortable with anymore, it will be way harder to fix because you have to either take the direct farm away again (which is easily done when indirect supply was added temporarily through festivals for example) or rebalance all indirect sources of silk and they are plentiful.

Another problem that came up frequently is the general price on ascended gear (with damask being the main cost). Since Anet made asc gear account bound after use, that price got more bearable but in general, i think Anet is fine with the general price point of ascended gear. So bringing the price of damask to deldrimor/leather levels isnt really an option for them.

The 3rd problem that occurs is the extended timegate on light armor. That is even in my opinion a valid problem and should be looked into. But as John said, no good solution for that has been suggested.

anets solution for silk did not solve the imbalance in t5 item prices, it eased the difference.

silk still costs tremedously more than other tier 5 basic materials
silk still costs more than many fine materials
silk is more expensive than a gossamer scrap (kitten! i rolled a rare gossamer salvage)

all of these are indicators that silks prices are not in line with its relative designed value.

essentially if silk is at the right price point, everything else is at the wrong price point.

which means relatively speaking, silk is not in a good place.

so why not have everything go up in value to match silk? well its hard to say how that would pan out, because while people right now, could definately not afford it, if everything was more valuable they might. But if making the items more valuable is centered around increasing grind, i dont think that is the best solution.

The price of silk as a t5 mat in relation to other mats is not a problem, just an irregularity, originating from supply and demand changes.

Apples and pears.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

before you can build a better car you must first
1)acknowledge/identifity the problems, or shortcomings of the current car
2)hypothesize various solutions
3)test the solutions, find problems, correct problems
4)release a better car.

this discussion is still in 1 and 2 phase, mostly in the 1) phase.
it does no good if your primary argument for why the current system is a good design, is that it is the current system.

Well, for the price of silk, i think we already went through all phases.
Last Summer, when silk was at its peak, many people complained about it and even I agree that it was too high. ANd even though Anet didnt acknowledge that there was a problem, I think internally they agreed, hypothesized solutions and implemented/tested them during season 2, which resulted in silk losing 50% of its value in 4 months.
Now they know what to do, if the silk price rises again.

So I am sure whenever Anet thinks that there is a problem with the silk price, they will have solutions ready.

The problem with this discussion at this point is that different people see different problems.
Silk price is/was certainly one but i think Anet got this covered and direct nodes/farming options arent neccessary, especially because if it goes sideways and silk plummets to a value that Anet isnt comfortable with anymore, it will be way harder to fix because you have to either take the direct farm away again (which is easily done when indirect supply was added temporarily through festivals for example) or rebalance all indirect sources of silk and they are plentiful.

Another problem that came up frequently is the general price on ascended gear (with damask being the main cost). Since Anet made asc gear account bound after use, that price got more bearable but in general, i think Anet is fine with the general price point of ascended gear. So bringing the price of damask to deldrimor/leather levels isnt really an option for them.

The 3rd problem that occurs is the extended timegate on light armor. That is even in my opinion a valid problem and should be looked into. But as John said, no good solution for that has been suggested.

anets solution for silk did not solve the imbalance in t5 item prices, it eased the difference.

silk still costs tremedously more than other tier 5 basic materials
silk still costs more than many fine materials
silk is more expensive than a gossamer scrap (kitten! i rolled a rare gossamer salvage)

all of these are indicators that silks prices are not in line with its relative designed value.

essentially if silk is at the right price point, everything else is at the wrong price point.

which means relatively speaking, silk is not in a good place.

so why not have everything go up in value to match silk? well its hard to say how that would pan out, because while people right now, could definately not afford it, if everything was more valuable they might. But if making the items more valuable is centered around increasing grind, i dont think that is the best solution.

The price of silk as a t5 mat in relation to other mats is not a problem, just an irregularity, originating from supply and demand changes.

Apples and pears.

for the crafting system to work in a way that makes sense, as well the progression system for gear, it shouldnt be apples and pears though.

So why design supply and demand for it that makes them into apples and pears?

There is no requirement it makes sense to you or anyone for that matter. It just needs to work. The only thing that governs the devs approach to designing the game is what they think it should do. I see no arguments that appeal to that. Ideas of ‘fairness’ or ‘sensible’ aren’t compelling.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

/inb4 John Smith wins Nobel Prize on virtual economies – theory and applications.

What makes you think it’s not already sitting in his shrine to Uncle Pennybags (who’s supposedly also evon gnashblade)?

Also, now that I’ve considered it a bit, people are forgetting a key point: silk stops being relevant for armor pretty quickly before ascended. Once you reach ~75, you’re going to be considering the use of exotic armor, all of which does NOT use silk, but gossamer. If you even craft the armor in the first place. Additionally, it’s also not hard to pick up rare armors before then from hopping around world bosses, dungeons, and mystic forging the crap.

Obtena.7952:

There is no requirement it makes sense to you or anyone for that matter. It just needs to work. The only thing that governs the devs approach to designing the game is what they think it should do. I see no arguments that appeal to that. Ideas of ‘fairness’ or ‘sensible’ aren’t compelling.

to me, it basically sounds like you are saying,
“Do not question the gods! they are mighty and unknowable, beyond the understandings of mere humans!”

design isnt a magic macguffin, there is an actual method and procedure involved. designs can be measured by how well they achieve thier function, their aesthetics, the economy of design, their stucture, and their integrity. Design is not unquestionable, not questioning design leads to stagnancy.

tigirius.9014:

Exactly where has it kept anything in check in this run away crazy train of an economy? Where? By your logic it would have corrected everything all by itself and there would have never been a need ever for their continued efforts of nerfing known places to farm items.

If DR did it’s job according to you, there would have never been any need.

The next myth you’ll tell us is that it’s prevented all chinese gold farmers from ever logging in. smh Amazes me what people believe sometimes.

It’s done 0 for the economy the economy was perfectly fine before two things happened to this game, the allowance for multiple accounts to end up with not one but multiple precursors during the island event without a rollback, and the creation of DR + the ongoing attacks against legit farmers.

That’s led to the type of economy and the TP centric nature of this game it’s not the other way around mate sorry.

1) DR puts caps on wealth gain from constant farming, it doesn’t eliminate it. It’s one of many things that helps keep the economy in check.

2) Gold farmers will always exist, so long as there are people willing to pay them for their services. They don’t log in not because of DR, but rather because GM Chris kills their accounts.

3) The Southsun Precursor fiasco is ancient history. Anet admitted it was a mistake to allow for such as event to run at a certain time, preventing all players from participating. Also, the Precusors that dropped broke the market for a short time. You could get good Precursors for 1/5 the price compared to now, but as you can see, the market has recovered. There was no need for a roll back, because the market self corrected. As John said, flippers help to bring prices to equilibrium faster.

4) The Trading Post is as much a part of this game as PvPing. Both take great skill to be good at. Top TP players are rich in game, and the top PvP players win riches in real life. If I were remotely good enough to have a chance at a share of $50,000 in prizes, you bet your dolyak that I’d be hyper focused on strategy in PvP. That same hyper focus leads to others with godly amounts of Gold.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

There is no requirement it makes sense to you or anyone for that matter. It just needs to work. The only thing that governs the devs approach to designing the game is what they think it should do. I see no arguments that appeal to that. Ideas of ‘fairness’ or ‘sensible’ aren’t compelling.

to me, it basically sounds like you are saying,
“Do not question the gods! they are mighty and unknowable, beyond the understandings of mere humans!”

design isnt a magic macguffin, there is an actual method and procedure involved. designs can be measured by how well they achieve thier function, their aesthetics, the economy of design, their stucture, and their integrity. Design is not unquestionable, not questioning design leads to stagnancy.

It sounds like that to you because as you already stated, you don’t trust anyone to do anything the way you feel it should be done, based on your narrow perspective as someone that thinks they know more than teams of experienced individuals who have vested interested in making this game successful. This all smacks of selfish arrogance.

I don’t have a problem questioning this, but as Wanze already pointed out, most of the concerns are already dealt with, so I see little point to do so. I won’t parrot his threads; he summed it up really well.

You got an axe to grind based on some higher moral standing of good game design. Unfortunately, this isn’t a university project to make the perfect MMO; it’s a business and has to consider business stuff; ROI for example. I don’t even see how you have shown this isn’t good game design. You haven’t shown it’s bad game design either. You just say it. I don’t think you would know good game design if it hit you between the legs.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

There is no requirement it makes sense to you or anyone for that matter. It just needs to work. The only thing that governs the devs approach to designing the game is what they think it should do. I see no arguments that appeal to that. Ideas of ‘fairness’ or ‘sensible’ aren’t compelling.

to me, it basically sounds like you are saying,
“Do not question the gods! they are mighty and unknowable, beyond the understandings of mere humans!”

design isnt a magic macguffin, there is an actual method and procedure involved. designs can be measured by how well they achieve thier function, their aesthetics, the economy of design, their stucture, and their integrity. Design is not unquestionable, not questioning design leads to stagnancy.

It sounds like that to you because as you already stated, you don’t trust anyone to do anything the way you feel it should be done, based on your narrow perspective as someone that thinks they know more than teams of experienced individuals who have vested interested in making this game successful. This all smacks of selfish arrogance.

I don’t mind questioning this, but as Wanze already pointed out, the process has already been full circle on this issue. Yu got an axe to grind based on some higher moral standing of good game design. I don’t see how that fits with how Anet’s demonstrated process for change works and you have yet to show it.

i dont assume i know more than anyone, but i dont assume that they will create a perfect design, there is no such thing. I dont assume that they know and understand every possible flaw.

every year teams of designers, and engineers try to build a better car. Their result vary, how do they learn what the problems/issues were?

sure they test and hypothesize, but a lot of the learning comes from looking at the flaws, and issues that were presented to them by consumers. The people actually interacting with the product on a daily basis often shockingly have a lot of insight on how things actually turned out, how something feels, and what worked and didnt work.

For design processes, you never come full circle, its a loop, you keep going, and keep making it better

https://www.teachengineering.org/view_activity.php?url=collection/cub_/activities/cub_creative/cub_creative_activity1.xml

and
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_8yToRMsnZY/TqS2YFOnXzI/AAAAAAAAABE/bc96-fBHEIg/s1600/EDP.png

the reason this issue with silk and damask imbalance keeps coming up, is because its an issue.

i didnt make this thread, or the one before that, or the one before that or the one before that. These threads consistently popping up shows that there is room in the design to be improved.

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

There is no requirement it makes sense to you or anyone for that matter. It just needs to work. The only thing that governs the devs approach to designing the game is what they think it should do. I see no arguments that appeal to that. Ideas of ‘fairness’ or ‘sensible’ aren’t compelling.

to me, it basically sounds like you are saying,
“Do not question the gods! they are mighty and unknowable, beyond the understandings of mere humans!”

design isnt a magic macguffin, there is an actual method and procedure involved. designs can be measured by how well they achieve thier function, their aesthetics, the economy of design, their stucture, and their integrity. Design is not unquestionable, not questioning design leads to stagnancy.

It sounds like that to you because as you already stated, you don’t trust anyone to do anything the way you feel it should be done, based on your narrow perspective as someone that thinks they know more than teams of experienced individuals who have vested interested in making this game successful. This all smacks of selfish arrogance.

I don’t mind questioning this, but as Wanze already pointed out, the process has already been full circle on this issue. Yu got an axe to grind based on some higher moral standing of good game design. I don’t see how that fits with how Anet’s demonstrated process for change works and you have yet to show it.

i dont assume i know more than anyone, but i dont assume that they will create a perfect design, there is no such thing. I dont assume that they know and understand every possible flaw.

Then we are getting somewhere because the only place this can lead is that they make the best decisions for the game, even if you see flawed elements or they result in bad things. Why is that? Because they own the concept for it and if those decisions end up not doing what they want for the game, they will change them. Anet has demonstrated that.

Maybe I’m making a massive assumption here but I don’t think Anet is striving to achieve your version of ‘good game design and practice’ its goal for the game, so I doubt using that as a justification to change this is going to have a significant impact. You give it shot though.

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

phys.7689:

Obtena.7952:

There is no requirement it makes sense to you or anyone for that matter. It just needs to work. The only thing that governs the devs approach to designing the game is what they think it should do. I see no arguments that appeal to that. Ideas of ‘fairness’ or ‘sensible’ aren’t compelling.

to me, it basically sounds like you are saying,
“Do not question the gods! they are mighty and unknowable, beyond the understandings of mere humans!”

design isnt a magic macguffin, there is an actual method and procedure involved. designs can be measured by how well they achieve thier function, their aesthetics, the economy of design, their stucture, and their integrity. Design is not unquestionable, not questioning design leads to stagnancy.

It sounds like that to you because as you already stated, you don’t trust anyone to do anything the way you feel it should be done, based on your narrow perspective as someone that thinks they know more than teams of experienced individuals who have vested interested in making this game successful. This all smacks of selfish arrogance.

I don’t mind questioning this, but as Wanze already pointed out, the process has already been full circle on this issue. Yu got an axe to grind based on some higher moral standing of good game design. I don’t see how that fits with how Anet’s demonstrated process for change works and you have yet to show it.

i dont assume i know more than anyone, but i dont assume that they will create a perfect design, there is no such thing. I dont assume that they know and understand every possible flaw.

Then we are getting somewhere because the only place this can lead is that they make the best decisions for the game, even if you see flawed elements or they result in bad things. Why is that? Because they own the concept for it and if those decisions end up not doing what they want for the game, they will change them. Anet has demonstrated that.

Maybe I’m making a massive assumption here but I don’t think Anet is striving to achieve your version of ‘good game design and practice’ its goal for the game, so I doubt using that as a justification to change this is going to have a significant impact. You give it shot though.

its not about me. The issues are there because they are there.
i dont think anet has as much problem with people discussing the game /feelings/issues as you do though.

I’m not denying the issue exists or not. I’m questioning the motivation of players that aren’t satisfied with the Anet’s response. For instance, I think you’re not being genuine when you say this isn’t about cost differences in the armor types, it’s about good game design. You’re aware that the cost angle is a dead end, so you’re try something else; that’s fair and I get that … test the waters, see if something sticks. Unfortunately, you picked something you aren’t really an authority on beyond what you can Google and something you can’t prove or disprove is happening, so it’s an untenable position to be in. I guess I just don’t like being lied to and I think you can do better.

Obtena.7952:

I’m not denying the issue exists or not. I’m questioning the motivation of players that aren’t satisfied with the Anet’s response. For instance, I think you’re not being genuine when you say this isn’t about cost differences in the armor types, it’s about good game design. You’re aware that the cost angle is a dead end, so you’re try something else; that’s fair and I get that … test the waters, see if something sticks. Unfortunately, you picked something you aren’t really an authority on beyond what you can Google and something you can’t prove or disprove is happening, so it’s an untenable position to be in. I guess I just don’t like being lied to and I think you can do better.

Honestly for me right, now, if i decided to have a new goal in GW2, though im not playing that actively right now, it would probably be to finish making a legendary gs. The price of silk would be to my advantage since i dont really intend to make any more ascended armor right now, possibly ever due to limited benefits, and the fact that it limits you to one stat for such a huge investment
I havent even done a daily ascended craft in many moons because id rather use the ectos for legendaries
so strictly speaking, i personally am better off with higher silk prices. But that doesnt mean it should be that way, or that its a good design. The game shouldnt intrinsicly make some players work objectively harder for the same results.

phys.7689:

I havent even done a daily ascended craft in many moons because id rather use the ectos for legendaries

daily ascended crafting doesnt require ectos.

“daily ascended crafting doesnt require ectos.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spool_of_Silk_Weaving_Thread

says daily timer right there, requires ectoplasm and 100 bolts of silk

I think you probably could make the timegate on damasks 2 instead of 1, but then I feel like the timegate on damask is primarily there so that damask can be sold at a profit. There’s a reason it’s tradeable: there’s an expectation that you’ll buy at least some of it.

I’d also be happy with using a little more elonian leather in the armor components instead of damask – reduce the damask used in the chest and leg panels by 2, add 2-3 leather.

As for making it use less silk: I think this is really dangerous, to a level I think most players don’t recognise. For crafting materials, GW2 has a highly efficient economy: it’s hard to corner, and when demand or supply changes, the prices change fairly quickly. Most characters don’t need all the resources they earn, and some will never be particularly exciting. A heavy armour user isn’t going to be excited about leather, while a medium armour user will find that very interesting, but won’t be so thrilled about metal. It’s quicker for them to trade than to farm it up themselves, which leaves us with several sticky wickets, particularly around how you make drops that are actually exciting if earning mats is going to be slower than liquidating everything and buying them.

ArenaNet’s solution appears to be to give one crafting mat in a tier much greater value. Charged lodestones are used for several legendaries and unique skins, so ArenaNet can make a guaranteed rare crafting mat drop and sometimes it’s going to be really exciting. Blood vials quickly turned into the same thing – crafting mats are cool, but blood vials are a big-ticket item. It looks like they decided to give the loot system a shot in the arm by giving light armor the same status: instead of all loot being junk (two blues and a green), now most loot is junk except light armor. If the price of silk normalises, and drops go back to being equitable, loot will go back to being homogenous, which means ArenaNet needs to come up with another way to give loot variability in value that can’t be circumvented by trading while still being tradeable.

Merus.9475:

I think you probably could make the timegate on damasks 2 instead of 1, but then I feel like the timegate on damask is primarily there so that damask can be sold at a profit. There’s a reason it’s tradeable: there’s an expectation that you’ll buy at least some of it.

I’d also be happy with using a little more elonian leather in the armor components instead of damask – reduce the damask used in the chest and leg panels by 2, add 2-3 leather.

As for making it use less silk: I think this is really dangerous, to a level I think most players don’t recognise. For crafting materials, GW2 has a highly efficient economy: it’s hard to corner, and when demand or supply changes, the prices change fairly quickly. Most characters don’t need all the resources they earn, and some will never be particularly exciting. A heavy armour user isn’t going to be excited about leather, while a medium armour user will find that very interesting, but won’t be so thrilled about metal. It’s quicker for them to trade than to farm it up themselves, which leaves us with several sticky wickets, particularly around how you make drops that are actually exciting if earning mats is going to be slower than liquidating everything and buying them.

ArenaNet’s solution appears to be to give one crafting mat in a tier much greater value. Charged lodestones are used for several legendaries and unique skins, so ArenaNet can make a guaranteed rare crafting mat drop and sometimes it’s going to be really exciting. Blood vials quickly turned into the same thing – crafting mats are cool, but blood vials are a big-ticket item. It looks like they decided to give the loot system a shot in the arm by giving light armor the same status: instead of all loot being junk (two blues and a green), now most loot is junk except light armor. If the price of silk normalises, and drops go back to being equitable, loot will go back to being homogenous, which means ArenaNet needs to come up with another way to give loot variability in value that can’t be circumvented by trading while still being tradeable.

the exciting above average drops are supposed to be fine materials, and t6 drops. silk/leather/mithril are supposed to feel useful, but normal. rare good drops is rare, oh snap is an exotic, and wtf is supposed to be a precuror

Shiyo.3578:

Wonderly.1324:

This is great! For a casual player. Gone are the days when I had to lament over getting nothing but two greens and a blue. Now, I can freely enjoy casual activities such as jumping puzzles, world bosses, and random events, and rejoice when I receive fine and masterwork gear as loot. After all, a third of the time the equipment will salvage into silk, which was worthless before. But now, the silk I get from casually playing actually has value, allowing me to sell it and slowly get any exotic gear I want, a high end grade of gear that allows me to experience everything the game has to offer, from open world exploration to WvW to dungeons, without much of a hitch. I’m so glad that silk prices are going up, because now the loot in the game just feels so much more rewarding.

Come back when you’re trying to gear up in ascended light armor(or any), would love to hear what you have to say.

I’ve obtained a full set of ascended armor for each weight class, so 18 pieces total. Except for a little bit of the light armor, I was able to do so purely from drops and salvages, without having to buy silk off the tp. It took a while, but it was worth it. So I guess what I’m saying is that my position remains the same

I spent some more time looking over the recipes and thinking after removing a hasty response earlier and I think I have my ducks in order this time ((quack!))

If I were king I would be looking at two changes to shift some of the emphasis off of cloth and onto the other time-gated materials~

• Reduce the cloth required by 1 and increase the leather required by 1 for Ascended light armor Coats and Pants. This will slightly reduce the minimum number of days a Tailor needs to produce the time-gated materials for a complete set of light armor.

• Allow Leatherworkers to use 3 Elonian Leather Squares instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. Likewise allow Armorsmith’s to use 3 Deldrimor Steel instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. This will reduce some of the (intense) competition Tailors face from other crafters for the Bolts of Damask that are available and would make the other two classes more able to sell their material and/or finished insignia.

Nike.2631:

I spent some more time looking over the recipes and thinking after removing a hasty response earlier and I think I have my ducks in order this time ((quack!))

If I were king I would be looking at two changes to shift some of the emphasis off of cloth and onto the other time-gated materials~

• Reduce the cloth required by 1 and increase the leather required by 1 for Ascended light armor Coats and Pants. This will slightly reduce the minimum number of days a Tailor needs to produce the time-gated materials for a complete set of light armor.

• Allow Leatherworkers to use 3 Elonian Leather Squares instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. Likewise allow Armorsmith’s to use 3 Deldrimor Steel instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. This will reduce some of the (intense) competition Tailors face from other crafters for the Bolts of Damask that are available and would make the other two classes more able to sell their material and/or finished insignia.

why not have an insignia formula that uses elonian leather and another one that uses deldrimor steel give all of jobs access to any of them.

this way, people can make their intricate insignia out of whatever they want. This creates an option, and a balancer, the competition for silk will be among mostly silk players. This will probably increase the value of leather, and lower the value of silk, but i think both of those things would probably be better for each. The risk is that there is so much leather that its obliterates the demand, and damask drops to minimum value, as well as silk. To mitigate this….. introduce an optional material sink at the same time. I got an idea for one, but eh.

i would also reduce the amount of silk required to 50, but i doubt they would do that unless they had a lot of new sinks they thought would be effective.(this would be more ideal, because silk could retain value, while ascended can be less grindy)

phys.7689:

“daily ascended crafting doesnt require ectos.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spool_of_Silk_Weaving_Thread

says daily timer right there, requires ectoplasm and 100 bolts of silk

I stand corrected.

Nike.2631:

I spent some more time looking over the recipes and thinking after removing a hasty response earlier and I think I have my ducks in order this time ((quack!))

If I were king I would be looking at two changes to shift some of the emphasis off of cloth and onto the other time-gated materials~

• Reduce the cloth required by 1 and increase the leather required by 1 for Ascended light armor Coats and Pants. This will slightly reduce the minimum number of days a Tailor needs to produce the time-gated materials for a complete set of light armor.

• Allow Leatherworkers to use 3 Elonian Leather Squares instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. Likewise allow Armorsmith’s to use 3 Deldrimor Steel instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. This will reduce some of the (intense) competition Tailors face from other crafters for the Bolts of Damask that are available and would make the other two classes more able to sell their material and/or finished insignia.

Everybody would just use leather to make insignias and the leatherworker will be shafted now because he needs 36 leather, while both other classes only need 18 days.

So the problem with the different timegates per class remains and is even worse than before.

You also have to keep in mind that deldrimor is the only one of the armor mats that has a considerable sink for weapons (lets neglect leather for bows). Any change that will result in deldrimor to rise in price, will be added to every ascended build in costs to craft the weapons and might negate any savings you make on damask.

As was mentioned before, by now, several different perceived problems and possible solutions are discussed here, so it might be better to actually state the problem you are trying to fix, when posting a solution.

Wanze.8410:

Everybody would just use leather to make insignias

Only until TP would correct, and leather would regain some worth (just as damask would lose some). That would basically create self-correcting system where prices of all those 3 components would naturally balance against each other. With possibly deldrimor remaining slightly more costly due to weapons (but then, it’s the easiest one to farm, which is a correction mechanism in itself)

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

Everybody would just use leather to make insignias

Only until TP would correct, and leather would regain some worth (just as damask would lose some). That would basically create self-correcting system where prices of all those 3 components would naturally balance against each other. With possibly deldrimor remaining slightly more costly due to weapons (but then, it’s the easiest one to farm, which is a correction mechanism in itself)

What problem is this supposed to fix? Im not opposed to that change (mostly because it would “fix” the leather market a bit) but i think the only thing it would change is the overall cost of ascended and it remains unknown, if Anet really wants that because it is supposed a long term goal. They made sure about that with the laurel timegate, so it wouldnt really change the amount of time you will need to obtain 1 set with weapons/trinkets/armor/infusions.

And as already mentioned, leather classes would get the shaft on the leather timegate.

And it wouldnt fix t5 leather because compared to the droprate of t4 leather, there is way too much of it, so we run out of rugged leather before the bulk of thick leather is used up.

If Anet can completely screw the game mechanics based on “i-don’t-know-what” , they can certainly help to balance the economics system. This imbalance and many others, combined with the constant changes to the mechanics and progression system have left me asking, "What about the “no grind” game Anet promised us when we pre-ordered GW2?" The only real way now to not have to grind is to dump increasing amounts into gem cards that become worth less and less in gold conversion. This is FAR from the same game that I played 2+ years ago. As such, until such things like GRIND, imbalanced economics, and constant changes to game mechanics are brought into a more calm and playable state, I will not be buying “Heart of Thorns” and you likely won’t see me playing GW2 at other than festival time.

*Anet, this is honest feedback from an increasingly dissatisfied player. You’ll probably censor this post, but if you do, that does nothing but alienate me further as a player and in a sense, proves my point.

Wanze.8410:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

Everybody would just use leather to make insignias

Only until TP would correct, and leather would regain some worth (just as damask would lose some). That would basically create self-correcting system where prices of all those 3 components would naturally balance against each other. With possibly deldrimor remaining slightly more costly due to weapons (but then, it’s the easiest one to farm, which is a correction mechanism in itself)

What problem is this supposed to fix? Im not opposed to that change (mostly because it would “fix” the leather market a bit) but i think the only thing it would change is the overall cost of ascended and it remains unknown, if Anet really wants that because it is supposed a long term goal. They made sure about that with the laurel timegate, so it wouldnt really change the amount of time you will need to obtain 1 set with weapons/trinkets/armor/infusions.

And as already mentioned, leather classes would get the shaft on the leather timegate.

And it wouldnt fix t5 leather because compared to the droprate of t4 leather, there is way too much of it, so we run out of rugged leather before the bulk of thick leather is used up.

Out of curiosity, what if they did introduce a changed insignia recipe, one that takes 1 each of the cloth materials, in a similar method to what the weapon inscriptions have? It’d shift focus off damask a little bit, and provide, at minimum, a meager bump in value for leather and deldrimor.

Something else I’d like to see is a way to convert the materials into other tX materials. Toss a stack in the forge with other stuff, get a chance of getting X amount of one of the other three back. Sort of a horizontal material promotion. It’d be chaos on the market for a while, but it would (should) sort itself out pretty quickly among all the material tiers.

Kris P Baykon.8496:

If Anet can completely screw the game mechanics based on “i-don’t-know-what” , they can certainly help to balance the economics system. This imbalance and many others, combined with the constant changes to the mechanics and progression system have left me asking, "What about the “no grind” game Anet promised us when we pre-ordered GW2?" The only real way now to not have to grind is to dump increasing amounts into gem cards that become worth less and less in gold conversion. This is FAR from the same game that I played 2+ years ago. As such, until such things like GRIND, imbalanced economics, and constant changes to game mechanics are brought into a more calm and playable state, I will not be buying “Heart of Thorns” and you likely won’t see me playing GW2 at other than festival time.

*Anet, this is honest feedback from an increasingly dissatisfied player. You’ll probably censor this post, but if you do, that does nothing but alienate me further as a player and in a sense, proves my point.

“If anet removes my post because it in some way breaks the rules* it vindicates my baseless assumption that they dont care about honest feedback and they’re out to get me.” That sound about right? If anet didnt care about feedback, this game would not have changed since day one. You’d have to be willfully ignorant to not understand that. Second, if anet didnt care about feedback, why is JS poking and prodding the thread so that it wanders into a more constructive discussion? Or do you think he’s doing it to laugh maniacally over the result?

*Your post is fairly offtopic so…. probably does break the rules. And since your post is pretty much off topic, I dont have much to reply to you with.

I might have to be a bit terse here. When the question is “What problem is this supposed to fix?” and the answer is “silk prices are too high and damask production does not parallel other, more easily obtained materials,” I’m not sure if it can be made any clearer.

It’s not like we don’t understand the economic concerns, though we may lack the actual data available. I’m not even bitter about the actual price of silk, but rather the slap in the face that is the production requirements, which just so happens to elevate the silk prices.

Would it be better to raise leather and mithril similarly? It’d be fair at least, and it would bring up leather prices. It’d also be a sour thing to do to the players, who are already ill from all the farming it takes.

I don’t really have a solution that hasn’t already been mentioned previously, and I want to have a stable market, so it’s worth having a dialogue. Do prices need to come down? Not exactly.
“Working as intended” and “there is not a problem” have some merit as a part of the conversation. Ain’t (overly) broke, so why fix it?
Is it fun? Well, no. Is it fair? No. And that’s a problem.

Since it’s been identified that leather doesn’t have enough uses to meet demand and cloth is spread too thin between all armor tiers, I’d actually like to see the leather-made insignia as an option. It could even be used as an additional gold-sink by adding an extra vendor item cost to it for the convenience.

( Picture added for humor’s sake. )

Kris P Baykon.8496:

If Anet can completely screw the game mechanics based on “i-don’t-know-what” , they can certainly help to balance the economics system. This imbalance and many others, combined with the constant changes to the mechanics and progression system have left me asking, "What about the “no grind” game Anet promised us when we pre-ordered GW2?" The only real way now to not have to grind is to dump increasing amounts into gem cards that become worth less and less in gold conversion. This is FAR from the same game that I played 2+ years ago. As such, until such things like GRIND, imbalanced economics, and constant changes to game mechanics are brought into a more calm and playable state, I will not be buying “Heart of Thorns” and you likely won’t see me playing GW2 at other than festival time.

*Anet, this is honest feedback from an increasingly dissatisfied player. You’ll probably censor this post, but if you do, that does nothing but alienate me further as a player and in a sense, proves my point.

Ascended isn’t necessary, and if you recall from 2 years ago: the game launched with little to no endgame. That’s where ascended comes in, optional endgame.

As to what I was gonna say before I saw your post:
If you were to make the insignia’s craftable with any of the 3 mats you could change the requirements for the armor as well. (If I’m making heavy armor than I need the deldrimar insignia)
As for the timegate on leather, letting them craft 2 squares a day would be a lot more manageable for people compared to silk. If I understand everything correctly that would put everyone down to fairly comparable days to craft.

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

I spent some more time looking over the recipes and thinking after removing a hasty response earlier and I think I have my ducks in order this time ((quack!))

If I were king I would be looking at two changes to shift some of the emphasis off of cloth and onto the other time-gated materials~

• Reduce the cloth required by 1 and increase the leather required by 1 for Ascended light armor Coats and Pants. This will slightly reduce the minimum number of days a Tailor needs to produce the time-gated materials for a complete set of light armor.

• Allow Leatherworkers to use 3 Elonian Leather Squares instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. Likewise allow Armorsmith’s to use 3 Deldrimor Steel instead of 3 Bolts of Damask when making Insignia. This will reduce some of the (intense) competition Tailors face from other crafters for the Bolts of Damask that are available and would make the other two classes more able to sell their material and/or finished insignia.

why not have an insignia formula that uses elonian leather and another one that uses deldrimor steel give all of jobs access to any of them.1

i would also reduce the amount of silk required to 50, 2 but i doubt they would do that unless they had a lot of new sinks they thought would be effective.(this would be more ideal, because silk could retain value, while ascended can be less grindy)

1. Too big of a change, That would be adding a whole new line of material refinement to the different professions and make them too homogenized. Nike’s suggestion on the insignias does the same thing on a macro scale your idea does but without the muddling of materials.

2. Please just let this drop. It really shouldn’t happen especially when there are other suggestions on the table that would do good things for the whole TP. The only thing cutting the req. for silk in damask would do is crash that market to nothing. I do not want to go back to the days when I would vendor my silk like I am my leather now.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Out of curiosity, what if they did introduce a changed insignia recipe, one that takes 1 each of the cloth materials, in a similar method to what the weapon inscriptions have? It’d shift focus off damask a little bit, and provide, at minimum, a meager bump in value for leather and deldrimor.

Something else I’d like to see is a way to convert the materials into other tX materials. Toss a stack in the forge with other stuff, get a chance of getting X amount of one of the other three back. Sort of a horizontal material promotion. It’d be chaos on the market for a while, but it would (should) sort itself out pretty quickly among all the material tiers.

Any change to demand for elonian leather (by making it a substitute for deldrimor or damask in some recipes), will create another problem:
While the is abundant t5 leather (12.5 million sections) t2-t4 leather only has supply between 130-200k.

So while there is enough supply of t5 leather to craft 83k elonian leather, there is only enough t4 leather to craft 4k elonian leather.

So Anet would have to adjust faucets for those lower tier leather as well in order to get a long term solution.

I am not a big fan of cross promotion (making cloth out of leather, bloods out of totems) because it greatly reduces the diversity of the in game economy. You might as well just fuse all mats of the same tiers for common, fine and rare mats into 1 item.
I dont think that is a good idea.
I also dont like demotion in the mf (making silk out of gossamer or platinum out of mithril) because the expensive price of some mid tier mats is a good way to transfer some gold from end game players to newer players, that level their first toon and get lots of those drops. And it also gives an incentive for veterans to play in lower level maps.

Even Angry Joe mentioned the grind for gold during the interview with Collin, that tells you something right there.

Rauderi.8706:

I might have to be a bit terse here. When the question is “What problem is this supposed to fix?” and the answer is “silk prices are too high and damask production does not parallel other, more easily obtained materials,” I’m not sure if it can be made any clearer.

Doesnt parallel it in what way? The cost? The supply? The demand? The cost is irrelevant. This is in part due to the nature of how fabric is obtained- through salvaging and containers. If you could simply harvest the fabric, their prices would be no different than the prices of wood, metal, and leather. Are people only going to be satisfied when ectos are the only thing of value in gw2? The supply is a hidden value we do not see. For all we know, the sell listings visible on the TP at any given time are only 10% of the traffic that went by 60 seconds before and 60 seconds after. Same thing with the demand for damask. None of the relevantly accurate information we can obtain with the tools we have. Hence why I asked if JS would be able to give us that information.

Additionally, cloth is one of the things where the demand is probably by far the lowest, only matched or exceeded by leather. Metal? Used in practically every single weapon, in addition to heavy armor. By that fact alone, metal should be more expensive. Why isnt it? Because the supply more than outweighs the demand, and that supply is well, supplied by both salvaging and harvesting.

Out of leather and cloth, you would think they’d also have roughly the same prices. Yet they dont. Why is that? You have 3 classes that wear light armor, and 3 classes that wear medium armor. Both of them require cloth and leather for their armor. The medium classes also need leather for their weapons as well. Yet cloth is basically hundreds of times more expensive, despite the fact that they can both only be obtained in the same way- salvage.

It’s not like we don’t understand the economic concerns, though we may lack the actual data available. I’m not even bitter about the actual price of silk, but rather the slap in the face that is the production requirements, which just so happens to elevate the silk prices.

Would it be better to raise leather and mithril similarly? It’d be fair at least, and it would bring up leather prices. It’d also be a sour thing to do to the players, who are already ill from all the farming it takes.

Here’s where you need to be specific. The farming for silk itself, entirely independent of any expected use of the material, or the farming of silk for it’s use in ascended armor? I mean, if it’s farming silk itself, dont be aiming to do all of it at once. If you have need for that much silk, that fast, do something more productive gold-wise and simply put in a buy order for the silk. If it’s for ascended gear, do the same exact thing. It’s not hard to obtain silk if you really want it. You either farm armor and containers to get silk, or you farm basically anything else for gold and then buy the silk.

I don’t really have a solution that hasn’t already been mentioned previously, and I want to have a stable market, so it’s worth having a dialogue. Do prices need to come down? Not exactly.
“Working as intended” and “there is not a problem” have some merit as a part of the conversation. Ain’t (overly) broke, so why fix it?
Is it fun? Well, no. Is it fair? No. And that’s a problem.

It’s perfectly fair. Players as a whole have decided they want to pay X price for silk in order to not farm it, and to sell silk at Y price when they do farm it. It’s the outlier players like the OP who wants their minor part of the whole to be the “majority” when it clearly isnt. Is silk too expensive? Not if the vast majority of players are willing to pay for it.

Since it’s been identified that leather doesn’t have enough uses to meet demand and cloth is spread too thin between all armor tiers, I’d actually like to see the leather-made insignia as an option. It could even be used as an additional gold-sink by adding an extra vendor item cost to it for the convenience.

( Picture added for humor’s sake. )

I can only see the material specific insignias being usable with ONLY that armor type, ie cloth insignia for cloth armor, etc.

edit: to clarify for wanze, I was only referring to such an ability for the basic materials, not fine/rare, which have acceptable prices and supply sources.

Wanze.8410:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Out of curiosity, what if they did introduce a changed insignia recipe, one that takes 1 each of the cloth materials, in a similar method to what the weapon inscriptions have? It’d shift focus off damask a little bit, and provide, at minimum, a meager bump in value for leather and deldrimor.

Something else I’d like to see is a way to convert the materials into other tX materials. Toss a stack in the forge with other stuff, get a chance of getting X amount of one of the other three back. Sort of a horizontal material promotion. It’d be chaos on the market for a while, but it would (should) sort itself out pretty quickly among all the material tiers.

Any change to demand for elonian leather (by making it a substitute for deldrimor or damask in some recipes), will create another problem:
While the is abundant t5 leather (12.5 million sections) t2-t4 leather only has supply between 130-200k.

So while there is enough supply of t5 leather to craft 83k elonian leather, there is only enough t4 leather to craft 4k elonian leather.

So Anet would have to adjust faucets for those lower tier leather as well in order to get a long term solution.

I am not a big fan of cross promotion (making cloth out of leather, bloods out of totems) because it greatly reduces the diversity of the in game economy. You might as well just fuse all mats of the same tiers for common, fine and rare mats into 1 item.
I dont think that is a good idea.
I also dont like demotion in the mf (making silk out of gossamer or platinum out of mithril) because the expensive price of some mid tier mats is a good way to transfer some gold from end game players to newer players, that level their first toon and get lots of those drops. And it also gives an incentive for veterans to play in lower level maps.

most likely rugged leather will go up somewhat in value at some point metal, or cloth will become competetive overall, then people will use those mats.

This also happens in normal markets, when a product becomes too expensive, usually a replacement is innovated, using some other material.
ground beef shortage? more people eat ground turkey.

Its fine if everyone uses leather, or mithril, until the economy balances out
as far as what problems it would solve? It would even out the timegate
it would likely increase the value of leather and decrease the value of silk, with mithril and metals as an option you can get yourself if you really want to.

as for leather users having to take twice as long, no, they would just use the other materials.
so silk users might use silk/leather
leather might use mithril/leather
metal might use metal/leather

if whoever ends up with the cheapest method for both, and wants to use that material, he can, but takes twice as long.

phys.7689:

This also happens in normal markets, when a product becomes too expensive, usually a replacement is innovated, using some other material.
ground beef shortage? more people eat ground turkey.

I have to challenge this on the grounds that ground turkey is heresy.