Guild Wars 2

There is nothing sacrosanct about the system as it is. It was set up as it is because ANet wanted more reasons for people to go to WvW and participate. While it does get people into WvW who would not otherwise be there, they are not really there to participate.

ANet thought that people in general would enjoy exploring in WvW. They also thought that people in general would repeat Temple events for blues. They thought that groups would take an average of 30-60 minutes to complete a dungeon path. They thought that jamming hundreds of players and Karka into LA to fight would work. Not every assumption they made in game design has proved true, especially not true “for everyone.”

The game is supposed to be fun. I had a lot of fun doing exploration in GW1 (with a fair bit of cursing thrown in, but I like to curse…). I’d enjoy having an explore achievement in GW2 that I want to complete. I’m asking for one because I don’t think I belong in WvW unless I want to go there to actually participate.

There’s nothing sacrosanct about asking, either, but existing systems have been changed in GW2 because people asked.

Mr eX.3420:

Xaaz.8472:

I’m on your server and you completely contradict yourself. You are against rotating colors, however, the ONLY reason you finished was because your team switched colors? /boggle

As I said, it’s just like the Orr temples. Some I got lucky, some I had to work for. It’s not contradictory.

It’s nothing at all like the Orr temples. Dwayna can be 3 manned (done it), Lyssa requires nothing, just walk to the side and commune, Balthazar needs nothing unless the last boss is up, which it never is cause if it gets that far it dies, Melandru is simple, Grenth is also not very hard unless the Boss is up – again, ppl would kill it if it was.

Do not even put Orr in the same boat as the PvP zones. I have never taken more than 1 day to do all 3 Orr zones on ANY of my 6 lvl 80’s. It took me quite a while to do my first 100% and the most time consuming area was WvW and I didn’t go there just for the map. I went there to PvP and still took more time than any other portion. I only got it because I transferred over to TC on the lucky week that they wiped FA off the map for killing their Dolyaks.

Just to reiterate, you had to change colors to complete your map. After the free transfers are gone, the maps won’t change often at all. The tiers will settle in and also not change much. So again, you are against rotating colors, even though you, yourself, needed a color change to complete. Makes sense to me.

The color rotation hurts nobody yet benefits everybody. Not really sure how people can be against this. Removing it from WvW? Eh, not sure on that one. I’d rather see it left in with a rotation, however, without a rotation it should be removed.

Lady Vireo.5189:

Every time this topic comes up, I just have to post in support of removing WvW from map completion.

Anytime PvE and PvP/WvW achievements are combined this way, it makes a lot of players unhappy.

It’s not that we can’t complete the achievement, it’s that we don’t enjoy the activity required to complete it. It’s not fun. Anytime the game forces you to do something you wouldn’t have chosen to do, just to get from point A to point B, it’s grindy.

Also, guesting is coming on the 28th and you will no longer be able to switch servers to finish map completion, without paying for it in gems.This will make it a lot more difficult.

I know it’s often argued that map completion is optional. But I think it’s important to acknowledge it’s an achievement designed to appeal to PvE players, so it’s counter-intuitive to force them to PvP to do it. Not being able to finish something robs players of satisfaction. That’s true of a lot of things right now, as the game stands. Take the personal storyline, designed for people who like to solo. Oh, guess what, you can’t actually finish it by yourself. You have to PUG a dungeon! If this is an attempt by Anet to encourage players to branch out of their chosen playstyle and cooperate, it’s not working for everyone. In many cases, it just makes people frustrated.

The major formats of the game—PvP, PvE, WvW—should not be interwoven that closely, IMO. We should always get to choose which one we want to participate in.

I absolutely support separate achievements for WvW, along the lines of suggestions that have already been made here on the forums many times. Good badge rewards for completing WvW POIs and vistas, instead of counting toward map completion, separate daily/monthly for WvW, etc.

Edit: I just wanted to add, I am okay with the pursuit of a legendary requiring WvW. That’s the point of a legendary, to show mastery of the whole game. Not so with world completion…I feel like the whole point of that achievement caters toward the lore-oriented, smell-the-roses explorer type of player who may or may not enjoy beating up fellow players.

I LOVE these responses. You do realize that this is how every single “Pvp” minded person has bad to deal with for every game right? Now you know how we feel. Pvp is jus monsters that are smart… a lot more fun then endlessly grinding for a shiny back piece that spews fake snow.

iSmack.1768:

If WvW maps were part of the world, why can’t we see it on the map when you’re in Tyria. They are instances, like dungeons. Dungeons don’t count for the world completion, WvW maps shouldn’t either.

They aren’t part of Tyria.

If WvW doesn’t belong to the world why do you get all of the bonuses won in WvW all the times that you kill a mob, gather a resource, craft a item or heal some damage?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_of_the_Mists

WvW is designed to be interconnected with PvE. The requirement of having to complete the WvW maps to get your map completion is there to encourage you to partake in that activity. If you feel that WvW is not enjoyable do not partake in it.
You do not need to have that golden start. If you are not prepared to do everything it takes in order to complete it you don’t deserve the achievement.

Xaaz.8472:

[snip]

Looks like I made a mistake by arguing with you because you didn’t read my post. I said I was for random color assignment.

Mr eX.3420:

Xaaz.8472:

[snip]

Looks like I made a mistake by arguing with you because you didn’t read my post. I said I was for random color assignment.

Ahh crap..my mistake. My apologies. I see it now.

Either random or rotation would work better than the static environment we are about to have. Even taking the map completion out of it, it would be nice to have different starting locations some of the time. Same map, same spots gets old.

Ooshi.8607:

You do not need to have that golden start. If you are not prepared to do everything it takes in order to complete it you don’t deserve the achievement.

Give me a break. There is no “deserve” in playing a video game. Achievements are supposed to be part of the fun. People who don’t enjoy the current set-up are asking for something different that will be fun for them.

Would they be happy with a silver star then as another poster suggested and the title “I’ve been almost everywhere”?

Ooshi.8607:

iSmack.1768:

If WvW maps were part of the world, why can’t we see it on the map when you’re in Tyria. They are instances, like dungeons. Dungeons don’t count for the world completion, WvW maps shouldn’t either.

They aren’t part of Tyria.

If WvW doesn’t belong to the world why do you get all of the bonuses won in WvW all the times that you kill a mob, gather a resource, craft a item or heal some damage?

Now that is a valid way to show the connect between WvW and PvE. That does give more merit to having PvE elements in WvW.

CorruptedSave.2570:

Ooshi.8607:

If WvW doesn’t belong to the world why do you get all of the bonuses won in WvW all the times that you kill a mob, gather a resource, craft a item or heal some damage?

Now that is a valid way to show the connect between WvW and PvE. That does give more merit to having PvE elements in WvW.

Let’s not kid ourselves. The bonuses are “connected” to WvW because the devs put them there, just like they put the explore achievements, the monthly and the legendary requirements — not because there is any sacred connection between the game modes.

Ooshi.8607:

Would they be happy with a silver star then as another poster suggested and the title “I’ve been almost everywhere”?

There should be a distinction between achievements. If separate WvW and PvE explore achievements were to exist, the rewards for them should be different and any titles or icons should be different.

I’m at Blackgate and I can’t recall us changing colors …. well since I have been going there. At least a month maybe more. I finished all the Pve maps and now it’s all WvWvW. 96% completion and no progression.
I can’t in good conscience go to WvW and not participate. It just feels wrong. Still without us changing colors I won’t be getting any farther with map completion until we do.
+1 for the suggestion that the colors are rotated.

CorruptedSave.2570:

Ooshi.8607:

iSmack.1768:

If WvW maps were part of the world, why can’t we see it on the map when you’re in Tyria. They are instances, like dungeons. Dungeons don’t count for the world completion, WvW maps shouldn’t either.

They aren’t part of Tyria.

If WvW doesn’t belong to the world why do you get all of the bonuses won in WvW all the times that you kill a mob, gather a resource, craft a item or heal some damage?

Now that is a valid way to show the connect between WvW and PvE. That does give more merit to having PvE elements in WvW.

Apart from the fact that for 90% of the population those bonuses were bugged from start of game and didn’t work until about a month or so ago.
And yea since i havn’t been getting from game start and never asked for them anyway i can do without it.. i have been doing fine so far.
{edit} {probably wasnt 90% but hey it sounds good and no one else gets there figures right on here anyway ;p }

Most cases if your server is geting crushed there is a good chance your server will fall down a bracket after a few weeks. Not only will this give you a chance to dominate the lower tier but you will at least get a different color. This will give you the opertunity to grab those easy POI’s for that color. Baring that the only truely hard POI’s to get if your being crushed would be the forien garisons, stonemist and the enemy keeps in EB. All the towers can be bum rushed with enough preperation and a few of them you can get the POI by runing up and kissing the door anyway. Bay and hills are a bit harder to rush but agian can be done particularly if you draw attention to another map first and then relocate as a zerg or just wait till the dominant team gets complacient. A round of chain caping camps to gather supply and dumping 3-4 rams on a door will have you through the door before any reinforcements can arrive, even if wiped after you already got the poi.

Gbok.1039:

Midnightjade.3520:

Gbok.1039:

If you think, as someone above posted, that you can get 500 badges without ever fighting someone in WvW you are highly mistaken.

Yeah you can. Borderlands jumping puzzle on multiple characters plus the rewards from map exploration will get it done. But WvWvW is kinda fun, no reason not to at least join the zerg for a while to get a few extra.

I’m doing world completion now and have finished one of the zones – just ran around for an hour at an off-peak time. Getting the others is doable but I’m not sure it should really be a requirement. Map completion of the PvE map plus 500 badges of honor to make sure you at least try WvWvW is probably the right balance.

I am sorry but I simply do not believe that you not once ever had to deal with someone of the opposite faction while doing the BL puzzles. It does not matter what you say..I just do not believe that.

How about a bet? -> Portal mesmer in EB, on multiple characters.
Not a single enemy. Entire puzzle has been capped by the portaling guys (it’s actually a guild I keep seeing), so others just walk to the spot and they get teleported to the top with (usually) two mesm.
So yeah, it’s way more possible then you think.

Erasculio.2914:

Astralporing.1957:

Which is why (this @Erasculio) it isn’t WvW activity at all – it requires you to act in a way that is different than the one beneficial to your side’s WvW goals.

I disagree. Based on this quote:

Astralporing.1957:

Those are easy. Unfortunately, you can’t do that to poi’s/vistas in keeps/garrison until your side holds that structure.

In order to get 100% map completition, you need to either wait, not knowing if one day your world will get those areas, or go get them yourself together with other players. In other words, 100% map completition helps to give incentives for players to capture structures for their world, even if the only reason they want to capture it is to get the PoI inside.

I’ll give you two scenarios (both of which i have seen firsthand).

In first case, someone realized that if the status quo will continue for a few more hours, the next reset will find the server in the same place as before. However, if the next server in place gets a few points advantage, our server will drop in ranking, and move to a different color. Effect? a group of players decided to willingly fail defence of garrison and few keeps (by just nod defending, or even actively sabotaging the defence when necessary – it’s much harder to defend structures if someone keeps using up all available supply for things that offer no advantage, like rams placed on top of walls). The effort failed, fortunately, but the mere fact that map completion persuaded some players to actively sabotage their own side is telling.

Next scenario is exactly what you are describing – trying to capture an objectove for map completion. The objective was a garrison in one of opponents’ battlegrounds which a group of players decided to capture for map completion. A large effort was made to make it succesful – golems, lot of siege, lot of advertising to get as big zerg as possible. We managed to capture the garrison (…barely) and get the vistas.
…as a result, we lost most of what we owned on that map due to overextending and wasting a massive amount of supply from all our structures. We kept garrison for no more than 10 mins, by the way. Attacking it was, from purely strategic point of view, a very dumb idea – we knew it, but did it anyway, because we wanted those vistas.

Map completion goals in both cases were significantly different than WvW goals – in both cases a subset of players played a very different game than the rest.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Guys world completion is BY FAR the easiest part of getting a legendary, and otherwise really serves no purpose. Be patient. Or, even better, be active in wvw and maybe you’ll capture that keep and get the poi you’re missing.

And getting some item whose only benefit is a different skin from any exotic of the same tier serves a purpose? Getting the %100 and whatever the reward for it is has as much purpose as a piece of fluff whose only use is “lookit”. Maybe if they had better stats they would actually be legendary, as it is now, they are just a vanity item for those who think they are cool looking. Not one of them, btw. So far everyone I’ve seen I wouldn’t give you a gold for, much less the time it takes to grind one.

Well, I would really love the idea of excluding WvW from World completion.

During GW 1, completing 100% was something challenging, and getting 100% didn’t need a single visit to any PvP area, so, what is the problem in repeating this same idea on GW 2?

TobyTucker.5317:

#3: I’m not terribly fond of strawman arguments. NOBODY is saying “scrap it all”. Hard is hard, but hard isn’t supposed to mean impossible.

Agreed. 100% map completion is not impossible. It is merely hard. If anyone is using strawman arguments, it’s you.

Regardless, your arguments are void. Map completion is working as intended. It is hard, not impossible.

The Mist are not part of the world, and thus should not be part of world completion. To anyone who says the Mist are part of the world, go learn some history.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mists
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mists

Further more, Power of the Mist is extremely similar to Favor of the Gods prior to the August 9, 2007 Patch. Saying that Power of the Mist means the Mist are part of Tyria is just plain wrong.

Farming Flats.5370:

how many of you have had it easy when the free transfer was allowed at each 24Hrs ??

I had my WvW mapped long before I finished my last Orr area. And Aurora Glade took a few months to turn blue. I never transferred to another server. And I don’t like PvP. It’s simply a matter of patience and some checking. I’d check for 5 minutes to see if I could get that extra POI or Vista that day. If not, I’d return to my PvE area and had a bit more patience.

The only problem I have with the WvW, is the colour. Theoretically, you could always miss out a certain colour. It really took Aurora Glade a few months to turn blue again! (I know we weren’t blue in October, nor November, nor December…) And capping some vista’s in a map that isn’t originally owned by you can be very dangerous.

Hell, while we’re at it, let’s just make it so you have to explore and get every way point and POI in every PvE dungeon (CoE, CoF, AC, CM, SE, TA, ARAH, etc) let’s throw in Southsun Cove while we’re at it… screw it, every Fractal zone is in too, why not, it IS part of the world!

Anyways, I’m on the fence about having the PvP zones as a requirement for world completion, but I’d be kitten if anyone can argue against my above statement other than “because my daddy arenanet said so”.

The thing I don’t understand about this is why is Anet trying to push players into WvW? Is there the potential to make money from WvW players? Is WvW lacking in the number of WvW oriented players? Why are they encouraging this? What is the gain?

If a player wants to do WvW, they’ll do it. If they don’t like PvP they will get their achievement, not enjoy it, and never return to WvW again. So why add a carrot on a stick, when there doesn’t seem to be any need for it?

Rin.1046:

The thing I don’t understand about this is why is Anet trying to push players into WvW? Is there the potential to make money from WvW players? Is WvW lacking in the number of WvW oriented players? Why are they encouraging this? What is the gain?

If a player wants to do WvW, they’ll do it. If they don’t like PvP they will get their achievement, not enjoy it, and never return to WvW again. So why add a carrot on a stick, when there doesn’t seem to be any need for it?

The same reason as why the PvE monthly contains 50 WvW kills. They want people to do everything and with the mapping it becomes “do everything, at least once”.

I would love to have the WvW removed from the 100% map completion, but I will still get my 100%, even with the WvW. It might only take a bit longer because I don’t want to WvW and will have to wait till my server owns the areas I want to map.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

The same reason as why the PvE monthly contains 50 WvW kills. They want people to do everything and with the mapping it becomes “do everything, at least once”.

I understand that, but why? What benefit is it to them whether players play WvW or not? As I say, WvW players will play WvW without Anet’s encouragement, while PvE players generally will not, regardless of any encouragement.

If Anet gained something from it or if WvW gained something from it, then I could understand. But from what I can tell, Anet gains nothing and WvW might gain a few extra PvE players. Is it really worth annoying a very large number of PvE only and WvW only players, just so that WvW gains a very small number of extra players?

As bas as this issue is, and it is bad (I completely support the OP)… the badges needed for legendaries are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH worse. The only reliable way to obtain them is the jumping puzzles. My server (SBI) basically died over the past week so now I’m screwed on a legendary because the jumping puzzles are all locked up. They need to make the badges obtainable in PVE as well IMO.

I think there should be two separate achievements, one for completing the Mist maps and one for the PvE maps, each giving some reward of their own (a hefty one, one would hope), but both required for the acquisition of a Legendary. Then when and if new lands are added to the game (or old lands, as I know many of us hope to someday see Cantha and Elona again) we get new achievements for exploring those lands.

However, splitting them doesn’t really address what seems to have been Anet’s obvious goal, to encourage people to check out WvW. So, if I can’t have it my way, then I like the idea several other people have posted about moving the Vistas and POIs out of the keeps and towers to more accessible locations. That does nothing for the WvW players, who still need to complete the entire PvE map and who still have to contend with queue spots sometimes being taken up by players that have no interest in participating in WvW, but it might make the situation a bit more palatable to PvE players. At the very least, perhaps some resentment to the current system would be eased. And who knows…perhaps by making the requirement less burdensome, we get more PvE players onto the maps, and some of them find out they actually like it, and we swell our ranks (Evil Plan…Activate! MUAHAHAHAAA! ).

Rotating the colors at reset seems to be a good compromise.
-PvE players in WvW would surge at reset then wane
-WvW players would benefit once the initial surge is over

As far as badges go… they need to increase the drop rate or something. I have over 250kills and 15 badges. In fact I rarely get loot at all in WvW as a Ranger. I don’t go to WvW constantly or I would have a lot more kills. Without decent loot dropping it’s a decision to go there just for the fun of it and when I have enough gold for repairs.
I came to WvW for the map completion and enjoyed the PvP enough to return in measured doses. I still have a lot of poi’s and vistas to get but I have tons of patience.

And as someone else mentioned the Borderlands being the same maps. I too was thoroughly confused the first time I went to a map that seemed the same. I was sure I had already done them once before… A decidedly ‘derrrrr’ moment. It would have been nice if they had made each land a tad bit different and in return giving each a slightly different battle strategy.

I finally got my 500 badges last night through a combination of kills & JPs. I wasn’t really trying for it. I’ve just been steadily gathering them since launch by doing monthlies and getting more involved in Wuvwuv these past two weeks. In total, my kills are at 1,040. Not a huge amount.