Did HoT ruin GW2?

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Dashingsteel.3410

Dashingsteel.3410

Vargamonth you say and I quote “What you see as an improvement, it’s actually only an improvement for YOU and might be perceived as negative by others”

That is an unfair statement because you don’t allow for the possibility that those improvements could ALSO be perceived as positive by others.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

really? So the end game can’t be new dungeons AND new raids? New dungeons giving better looking exotic gear and raids continuing with Ascended? In a game all about horizontal progression this would probably make more people happy.

Big guilds can keep their guild halls, but no reason why small guilds couldn’t get less expensive huts for example.

A more mixture of zones with there being bigger reward in the harder ones, but easier ones existing for casual players, you sure that is impossible?

HoT completely alienated whole lot of players. Most MMOs don’t do this. They find balance instead. There’s not going to be balance without any outrage.

What you’re saying is that you don’t want anyone that left to get ANYTHING. Which is alienating a huge part of the player base. I’m saying that multiple types of content can coexist side by side.

Some of your suggestions are definitely possible, but only universally positive if they’re additions. It would be great to get several dungeons on top of raids (some new factals, which is the current foundation for dungeon content, are coming with LS3 afaik), but the truth is you would probably need to cut the raid development to produce those dungeons, and you would still get complaints about whatever difficulty you set for them.

Honestly, I find the xpac fairly well balanced in many aspects.
I got raids, which are great but still rather easy (balance, I guess), but I somehow lost fractals (which got extremely casualized) in the process. I got some great maps to explore, but still with very little appeal gameplay (not reward) wise to play them on daily basis. I got adventures, which I love, but no reward structure to replay them competitively. I got elite specs, which sound nice, but they also powercreeped many old content and brought a spammy and passive proc filled gameplay to PvP which I dislike A LOT.
I guess all the points I dislike are there for a reason, probably because there are other segments of the playerbase who enjoy things that way.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth you say and I quote “What you see as an improvement, it’s actually only an improvement for YOU and might be perceived as negative by others”

That is an unfair statement because you don’t allow for the possibility that those improvements could ALSO be perceived as positive by others.

You’re right. They can (and almost surely will) be perceived as postitive by many other people. I was trying to explain that whatever is a good change for some people, could easily be a bad one for others. My apologies.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

But different HoT complaints.

True, but this thread is about whether HoT ruined GW2.

Pouring a fifty-five gallon drum of water into 55 1-gallon buckets doesn’t reduce the volume of water. It merely makes it easier to carry.

Breaking up the complaints against HoT into smaller pieces merely makes it easier to talk about. But, then saying each piece is a small problem makes it easier to argue against. But, in total, there’s still 55 gallons of water, and HoT did ruin GW2 (although they have partially recovered).

(edited by Daddicus.6128)

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

im sitting here thinking how to respond and realize i just dont care anymore. watever combination of things HoT brought i didnt like, it made it worse than hating it.
hate requires passion
i just honestly dont care, im sorry i posted, i keep checking in here to see if things are going to change but all i read is LS later, only addition is raids, legendaries canceled

maybe its time i stop checkin in at all

sorry for posting, take care

Don’t be another victim of the very small but very vocal minority that shouts down their more-casual opponents. ANet changed HoT because HoT was an absolute disaster. If the harder-core people were right that they are the majority, ANet wouldn’t have made any changes, because their bottom line wouldn’t have suffered. They listen to money talking (which is fine — they’re a business).

The fact that they DID make changes (although not nearly enough changes) conclusively demonstrates which side of this argument had the majority of dollars spent over time.

Hopefully they will make a few more changes to get the game back to where it was.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

… only universally positive if they’re additions.

This is actually a very good point. Using the near-universally reviled desert borderlands, what would have been the problem with having both sets of maps?

Yes, it makes for a more complex chunk of coding, and maybe with WvW is just isn’t practical. But, the idea still stands as good.

Don’t kill old dungeons and add new ones. Just add new ones. Heck, they could even be in HoT zones.

Adventures are hated by a large contingent of players, but that’s mainly because they’re required for mastery advancement. Most of those who don’t like them simply don’t play them.

But, they lose out on MPs for that decision. ANet shouldn’t remove mastery progression from adventures just to placate people like me who despise them. There are people who like them.

Instead, they should add other content, at approximately the same difficulty, as an alternate way to get MPs. They can even cap this first crop of MPs so it doesn’t become a way to get more when the next masteries come out (if they do).

Add stuff rather than replacing stuff. Good idea!

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Ragion.2831

Ragion.2831

Honestly, how you can say you played since release then say HoT ruined GW2 is ridiculous.

If i were to ask the simple question what is GW2? What would be your answer? (aside from it being an MMORPG). If someone asked you to describe GW2 to them, how would you do it?

There are several parts to GW2, and all these parts dont interact with each other. HoT altered all these parts so to say it ruined the entire game is not for you to say but for everyone to say for themselves depending on why they play the game in the first place.

Objectively GW2 is better because of HoT. Every part of the game was enhanced in some way: more rewards, more stories and better story telling, better maps, more items to craft, class balance is still badly out of place but that wasnt made worse by HoT.

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Posted by: James Quall.6029

James Quall.6029

Ruin might be too strong of a word, but the huge content drought before the expansion and the huge content drought after the launch certainly had their effects on my login frequency. I doubt I’m the only one who plays much less (or not at all) because of this.

It has been something like 3/4 of a year since the expansion launched and so far I think the only new content released since then was the three wings of Forsaken Thicket. I have only raided a few times and my impression is generally positive but at the same time I am also not really compelled to ever raid again.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

Objectively GW2 is better because of HoT. Every part of the game was enhanced in some way: more rewards, more stories and better story telling, better maps, more items to craft, class balance is still badly out of place but that wasnt made worse by HoT.

Actually, I can see the argument for HoT adversely affecting the game as well, due to the Desert Borderlands of WvW killing the mode for those who liked Alpine (Or even just sensible map design), and Guild Halls crippling if not outright destroying small guilds.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Dashingsteel.3410

Dashingsteel.3410

GW2 is not better because of HoT. It survived in spite of HoT. HoT was a big disappointment. It was a very cynical offering filled with excessive farming and gold sinks galore. It robbed core players of aspects of the game they had paid for(guild boons and fractal rewards) basically punishing those people who had bought the core game but not HoT. If you are saying that Nintendo was the way to make gw2 better than bravo Anet did it.

Anet is trying to rush out the next expansion to blot out the stain of the current expansion. They are so desperate to pump this new expansion out that they have indefinitely put legendary journies a much advertised aspect of HoT on hold.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Did I tell you to leave, or did I tell you let me show you how good it is?

There are always people going to leave, and I’m not usually one of the people telling people TO leave. However, if a person is gone, having them come talk about a game they’re not even playing and may not even know anymore is not necessarily helpful either.

There’s no evidence yet that these changes have hurt Anet. None at all. You being a customer for HoT doesn’t break this game one way or another. Anet will survive without you. But I didn’t tell you to leave. I offered to show you around and give you a tour. If that’s telling you to leave, then I guess we’re not speaking the same language.

You say you’ve lost nothing by not learning how to play a game you enjoyed for three years and invested time and money into. It doesn’t sound that way from where I’m sitting. I’ll allow the rest of the forums to make up their mind about that one way or another.

If everyone was like you Vayne, then companies will have a free pass to roll their players in the dirt.
Without any critique, the next GW2 expansion can’t be better. Perhaps the next expansion pack
- small guilds will have their courner
- end game won’t have to be just raids
- zones won’t have to be on very strict timers
- there will be more balance between horizontal and vertical zones
- there will be more content for the price
- the developers won’t go back on their promises (the legendary fiasco)
- content won’t have to be easy versus hard
without critique, without people being unhappy or leaving, none of this will happen. Everyone knows that there are some good points to HoT, but if there’s no backlash, there’s no improving in the future.

First of all, you ignore the points I don’t like that I point out and agree with. I was against raids and remain against them. I don’t think they have any place in this game. I don’t think they should be been introduced and I don’t think specific rewards should be locked behind them. So trying to railroad me into a guy who doesn’t say anything negative about what Anet has done is not only misleading, but it’s dead wrong. We got where we got by Anet listening to people complaining and changing to the game accomodate them. They added raids and harder content, because people asked for raids and harder content. If everyone was like me that wouldn’t have likely happened, since I didn’t ask for raids.

That said, I think the expansion is a lot of fun. I find the idea that I have to think to survive in the open world refreshing. Or that I have to think to get around and learn the zones. This may be a bad thing to you, but it doesn’t make it a bad thing.

I don’t find masteries all that grindy because they’re account wide. I don’t mind that the story is so short because I have a ton of alts. Do you know how many times I’ve done the personal story on different characters? 17. If the personal story were longer it would be much worse for me. Shorter isn’t necessarily worse to an altoholic.

I defend the things I like about the game because I like them, not because I’m Anet’s lap dog.

I complain about the things I don’t like about the game because I don’t like them. It really is that simple.

I’m in HOT zones almost every day and there’s a ton of people in there running around having fun.

But you know, if you’re going to take issue with what I say that’s one thing. Saying guys like me ruined the game because I never complained is demonstrably wrong.

I’ve complained about the introduced of ascended gear which I didn’t think was necessary. I complained about gambling in dye packs and black lion chests. I complained about raids being in the game. But I don’t complain about difficulty or grind, because I don’t see that as issue.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

‘hot ruining GW2’ is childish hyperbolic self centered nonsense that you see a lot in this current culture of self entitlement. This is how it should go, if you don’t like the Hot elements, avoid them and play the parts you do enjoy, if you don’t enjoy anything, take a break or move on. It really is that simple.

No. It’s not that simple.

HoT is supposed to be the game going forward. Ongoing updates tied to HoT guarantee that. HoT definitely does not appeal to everyone, but it should have if ANet had any interest in maintaining interest among the group they repeatedly dumbed the vanilla game down for. That’s what’s perplexing to me. They nerf the base game over, and over and over and then have their pride stung by the accusations of lack of challenge. They ought to make up their kittening minds who their target audience is.

The idea that HoT is “how it should be” is every bit as self-centered and entitled as the opposite. There’s no “should be.” If ANet decides to reverse course — again — then you’ll be the one that’s hyperbolic-- unless your agenda is that ANet can do no wrong no matter what they do.

I think you’re simplifying this. Anet didn’t dumb down the base game to make it so that it’s braindead easy and ignore anything getting harder. They’ve constantly added harder content in. Drytop is harder than core Tyria and so is Silverwastes. Many of the mobs in Silverwastes are similar to HoT mobs.

The Living Story got MUCH harder as it progressed. Anet mostly changed the earlier part of the game to make it so people could get their footing, but make no mistake, elements of the game did get harder.

There were several challenging fights in LS 2 and achievements for that are a lot lot harder.

Anet changed the beginning part of the game ot try to stop people who couldn’t do even that from staying with the game. They didn’t change Arah path 4. They made Shatterer harder, Tequatl harder and introduced Triple Threat.

What about the Queen’s Pavaillion? That was hard content too, particularly Liadri.

No, Anet has added hard content to this game all along. They simply want to add enough of it for the most disenfranchised group.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Squee Squashington.5189

Squee Squashington.5189

I’ve always thought people wanting the game to be harder, were steering this game into a ditch. Simply put, an MMO, or any game really, should be fun.

Heart of Thorns for me was basically Cursed shore all over again, 4 whole zones of it, with a new set of living story chapters glazed on top. Back in “vanilla” most players hated Orr. The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

So here we are with Orr 2.0. Meta-events with grindy rewards keep them populated to some extent, but for how long? Ever since the Teq revamp it seems like Anet’s been on a mission to “make the players get better” or to play the way they want you to instead of how you want to.

I loved “vanilla” GW2. I spent a lot of time and money into the game at that time. Leveling/PvE was by far my favorite aspect, but I enjoyed some PvP, WvW, and occasionally dungeons as well. I guess when I heard about the HoT expansion my hopes were that it was going to be more zones and content like I’d enjoyed when first playing the game. Sadly it seems like they really threw their winning formula away.

The simple fact is, nobody wants to drudge through a game. There’s no love or nostalgia for most games that are annoying to play. It’s this design vision that has hurt more MMO’s in the last 5-7 years than helped they retain their player base. I had high hopes for HoT, but after everything GW2 is a completely different game now, one I don’t really find a lot of enjoyment in sticking around for.

Legendary Defender of Casuals

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

Don’t be another victim of the very small but very vocal minority that shouts down their more-casual opponents. ANet changed HoT because HoT was an absolute disaster. If the harder-core people were right that they are the majority, ANet wouldn’t have made any changes, because their bottom line wouldn’t have suffered. They listen to money talking (which is fine — they’re a business).

The fact that they DID make changes (although not nearly enough changes) conclusively demonstrates which side of this argument had the majority of dollars spent over time.

Hopefully they will make a few more changes to get the game back to where it was.

Hopefully, they will. But don’t be surprised if it quickly reaches a point where you find yourself in the minority.

As it happens, I enjoyed HoT before April and I enjoy it even more now because it has so many more players in it. So although I enjoyed it previously, the changes during the April patch were still to my liking.

This isn’t really “us vs. them” or “me vs. you”. It’s ANet tweaking things to (hopefully) be more agreeable for everyone. I think the April patch shows they can handle that and they’re moving in the right direction.

I hope for the future it means that we’ll continue to see event-driven (whether HoT or SW style) maps that feature the exploration and combat challenge of HoT. But also maps that would be more to your tastes.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I’ve always thought people wanting the game to be harder, were steering this game into a ditch. Simply put, an MMO, or any game really, should be fun.

Heart of Thorns for me was basically Cursed shore all over again, 4 whole zones of it, with a new set of living story chapters glazed on top. Back in “vanilla” most players hated Orr. The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

So here we are with Orr 2.0. Meta-events with grindy rewards keep them populated to some extent, but for how long? Ever since the Teq revamp it seems like Anet’s been on a mission to “make the players get better” or to play the way they want you to instead of how you want to.

I loved “vanilla” GW2. I spent a lot of time and money into the game at that time. Leveling/PvE was by far my favorite aspect, but I enjoyed some PvP, WvW, and occasionally dungeons as well. I guess when I heard about the HoT expansion my hopes were that it was going to be more zones and content like I’d enjoyed when first playing the game. Sadly it seems like they really threw their winning formula away.

The simple fact is, nobody wants to drudge through a game. There’s no love or nostalgia for most games that are annoying to play. It’s this design vision that has hurt more MMO’s in the last 5-7 years than helped they retain their player base. I had high hopes for HoT, but after everything GW2 is a completely different game now, one I don’t really find a lot of enjoyment in sticking around for.

You’re right. The game should be fun. I find the HOT zones more fun than the core Tyria zones. Unfortunately no one demographic has a monopoly on what fun is. You assume easier is funner but that’s not true for many. How many? No one really knows.

Assuming the ridiculously easy open world is enjoyable to everyone (particularly when we see so many complaints about how boring leveling is), is a misnomer. Assuming you’re talking for some sort of majority might well be a misnomer too.

It’s true that most people who were playing the game before the expansion hit were probably enjoying the more casual content. It’s also likely true that many who wanted harder content walked away from the game, only to return when HoT launched.

Since neither you or I have the numbers, it comes down to what it’s always come down to. Finding a middle ground between ridiculously hard and kitten easy. Unfortunately the balance is different for everyone.

Make it too easy and you lose a percentage of people. Make it too hard and you lose a different percentage of people. The trick is to make it so that you lose a minimum number of people.

I don’t think HoT is as hard as people are making it out to be, and there were plenty of people complaining when the first Orr was nerfed too. Orr is a joke today. It’s not more fun…for people like me.

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Posted by: Ryou.2398

Ryou.2398

I’ve always thought people wanting the game to be harder, were steering this game into a ditch. Simply put, an MMO, or any game really, should be fun.

Heart of Thorns for me was basically Cursed shore all over again, 4 whole zones of it, with a new set of living story chapters glazed on top. Back in “vanilla” most players hated Orr. The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

So here we are with Orr 2.0. Meta-events with grindy rewards keep them populated to some extent, but for how long? Ever since the Teq revamp it seems like Anet’s been on a mission to “make the players get better” or to play the way they want you to instead of how you want to.

I loved “vanilla” GW2. I spent a lot of time and money into the game at that time. Leveling/PvE was by far my favorite aspect, but I enjoyed some PvP, WvW, and occasionally dungeons as well. I guess when I heard about the HoT expansion my hopes were that it was going to be more zones and content like I’d enjoyed when first playing the game. Sadly it seems like they really threw their winning formula away.

The simple fact is, nobody wants to drudge through a game. There’s no love or nostalgia for most games that are annoying to play. It’s this design vision that has hurt more MMO’s in the last 5-7 years than helped they retain their player base. I had high hopes for HoT, but after everything GW2 is a completely different game now, one I don’t really find a lot of enjoyment in sticking around for.

You’re right. The game should be fun. I find the HOT zones more fun than the core Tyria zones. Unfortunately no one demographic has a monopoly on what fun is. You assume easier is funner but that’s not true for many. How many? No one really knows.

Assuming the ridiculously easy open world is enjoyable to everyone (particularly when we see so many complaints about how boring leveling is), is a misnomer. Assuming you’re talking for some sort of majority might well be a misnomer too.

It’s true that most people who were playing the game before the expansion hit were probably enjoying the more casual content. It’s also likely true that many who wanted harder content walked away from the game, only to return when HoT launched.

Since neither you or I have the numbers, it comes down to what it’s always come down to. Finding a middle ground between ridiculously hard and kitten easy. Unfortunately the balance is different for everyone.

Make it too easy and you lose a percentage of people. Make it too hard and you lose a different percentage of people. The trick is to make it so that you lose a minimum number of people.

I don’t think HoT is as hard as people are making it out to be, and there were plenty of people complaining when the first Orr was nerfed too. Orr is a joke today. It’s not more fun…for people like me.

Well I tend to go into higher level areas to level for a challenge, but still if I want map completion I have to do the hearts anyway.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I’ve always thought people wanting the game to be harder, were steering this game into a ditch. Simply put, an MMO, or any game really, should be fun.

Heart of Thorns for me was basically Cursed shore all over again, 4 whole zones of it, with a new set of living story chapters glazed on top. Back in “vanilla” most players hated Orr. The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

So here we are with Orr 2.0. Meta-events with grindy rewards keep them populated to some extent, but for how long? Ever since the Teq revamp it seems like Anet’s been on a mission to “make the players get better” or to play the way they want you to instead of how you want to.

I loved “vanilla” GW2. I spent a lot of time and money into the game at that time. Leveling/PvE was by far my favorite aspect, but I enjoyed some PvP, WvW, and occasionally dungeons as well. I guess when I heard about the HoT expansion my hopes were that it was going to be more zones and content like I’d enjoyed when first playing the game. Sadly it seems like they really threw their winning formula away.

The simple fact is, nobody wants to drudge through a game. There’s no love or nostalgia for most games that are annoying to play. It’s this design vision that has hurt more MMO’s in the last 5-7 years than helped they retain their player base. I had high hopes for HoT, but after everything GW2 is a completely different game now, one I don’t really find a lot of enjoyment in sticking around for.

You’re right. The game should be fun. I find the HOT zones more fun than the core Tyria zones. Unfortunately no one demographic has a monopoly on what fun is. You assume easier is funner but that’s not true for many. How many? No one really knows.

Assuming the ridiculously easy open world is enjoyable to everyone (particularly when we see so many complaints about how boring leveling is), is a misnomer. Assuming you’re talking for some sort of majority might well be a misnomer too.

It’s true that most people who were playing the game before the expansion hit were probably enjoying the more casual content. It’s also likely true that many who wanted harder content walked away from the game, only to return when HoT launched.

Since neither you or I have the numbers, it comes down to what it’s always come down to. Finding a middle ground between ridiculously hard and kitten easy. Unfortunately the balance is different for everyone.

Make it too easy and you lose a percentage of people. Make it too hard and you lose a different percentage of people. The trick is to make it so that you lose a minimum number of people.

I don’t think HoT is as hard as people are making it out to be, and there were plenty of people complaining when the first Orr was nerfed too. Orr is a joke today. It’s not more fun…for people like me.

Well I tend to go into higher level areas to level for a challenge, but still if I want map completion I have to do the hearts anyway.

Exactly my point. Orr was nerfed to the point where it is barely a challenge any more. There aren’t all that many challenging zones to go into. Even if I go into a higher level zone, with Orr and Frostgorge basically being easy, you have Southsun, Drytop and Silverwastes. That’s three hardish zones.

Southsun isn’t all that interesting from a mechanics point of view. It’s okay for farming. Dry Top and Silverwastes are better, but not great event variety in Silverwastes, even though it was a fun zone the first 80 times.

HoT needed harder maps to give more balance to the harder and easier, so we all had something to do.

Doing hearts is my far my least favorite component of map completion. And I have to keep doing map completion because I like making legendaries.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

‘hot ruining GW2’ is childish hyperbolic self centered nonsense that you see a lot in this current culture of self entitlement. This is how it should go, if you don’t like the Hot elements, avoid them and play the parts you do enjoy, if you don’t enjoy anything, take a break or move on. It really is that simple.

No. It’s not that simple.

HoT is supposed to be the game going forward. Ongoing updates tied to HoT guarantee that. HoT definitely does not appeal to everyone, but it should have if ANet had any interest in maintaining interest among the group they repeatedly dumbed the vanilla game down for. That’s what’s perplexing to me. They nerf the base game over, and over and over and then have their pride stung by the accusations of lack of challenge. They ought to make up their kittening minds who their target audience is.

The idea that HoT is “how it should be” is every bit as self-centered and entitled as the opposite. There’s no “should be.” If ANet decides to reverse course — again — then you’ll be the one that’s hyperbolic-- unless your agenda is that ANet can do no wrong no matter what they do.

I think you’re simplifying this. Anet didn’t dumb down the base game to make it so that it’s braindead easy and ignore anything getting harder. They’ve constantly added harder content in. Drytop is harder than core Tyria and so is Silverwastes. Many of the mobs in Silverwastes are similar to HoT mobs.

The Living Story got MUCH harder as it progressed. Anet mostly changed the earlier part of the game to make it so people could get their footing, but make no mistake, elements of the game did get harder.

There were several challenging fights in LS 2 and achievements for that are a lot lot harder.

Anet changed the beginning part of the game ot try to stop people who couldn’t do even that from staying with the game. They didn’t change Arah path 4. They made Shatterer harder, Tequatl harder and introduced Triple Threat.

What about the Queen’s Pavaillion? That was hard content too, particularly Liadri.

No, Anet has added hard content to this game all along. They simply want to add enough of it for the most disenfranchised group.

If I’m simplifying, so are you. While there’s been an effort to add challenge, there has also been a contradictory initiative to subtract it. Then we get HoT, where the easy stuff is Tigers — who are more like Tiggers.

The problem I have is not that ANet adds challenge, it’s that the core game is very poor preparation for HoT, both in terms of teaching the use of mechanics and preparing players for the idea that they ought to use them. It’s also that the company has sent mixed messages about what it’s offering. This can (and maybe has) become a problem when they expect all their active followers to keep buying their XPac’s to stay current. It’s not like HoT was a side track for your “disenfranchised group.”

You know as well as I do that ANet swings like a pendulum do (props if you get the reference). We don’t at this point know how they’ll swing down the road. Personally, I expect mob difficulty to be consistent with HoT, but for them to iterate things like map design and maybe things like map meta’s so there’s more for small groups or solos to do. I could be way wrong, though.

I just don’t care for points like the one I responded to. There’s no right or wrong, no “way it should be.” It’s just a game, not physics where there are natural laws.

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Posted by: Squee Squashington.5189

Squee Squashington.5189

I’ve always thought people wanting the game to be harder, were steering this game into a ditch. Simply put, an MMO, or any game really, should be fun.

Heart of Thorns for me was basically Cursed shore all over again, 4 whole zones of it, with a new set of living story chapters glazed on top. Back in “vanilla” most players hated Orr. The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

So here we are with Orr 2.0. Meta-events with grindy rewards keep them populated to some extent, but for how long? Ever since the Teq revamp it seems like Anet’s been on a mission to “make the players get better” or to play the way they want you to instead of how you want to.

I loved “vanilla” GW2. I spent a lot of time and money into the game at that time. Leveling/PvE was by far my favorite aspect, but I enjoyed some PvP, WvW, and occasionally dungeons as well. I guess when I heard about the HoT expansion my hopes were that it was going to be more zones and content like I’d enjoyed when first playing the game. Sadly it seems like they really threw their winning formula away.

The simple fact is, nobody wants to drudge through a game. There’s no love or nostalgia for most games that are annoying to play. It’s this design vision that has hurt more MMO’s in the last 5-7 years than helped they retain their player base. I had high hopes for HoT, but after everything GW2 is a completely different game now, one I don’t really find a lot of enjoyment in sticking around for.

You’re right. The game should be fun. I find the HOT zones more fun than the core Tyria zones. Unfortunately no one demographic has a monopoly on what fun is. You assume easier is funner but that’s not true for many. How many? No one really knows.

Assuming the ridiculously easy open world is enjoyable to everyone (particularly when we see so many complaints about how boring leveling is), is a misnomer. Assuming you’re talking for some sort of majority might well be a misnomer too.

It’s true that most people who were playing the game before the expansion hit were probably enjoying the more casual content. It’s also likely true that many who wanted harder content walked away from the game, only to return when HoT launched.

Since neither you or I have the numbers, it comes down to what it’s always come down to. Finding a middle ground between ridiculously hard and kitten easy. Unfortunately the balance is different for everyone.

Make it too easy and you lose a percentage of people. Make it too hard and you lose a different percentage of people. The trick is to make it so that you lose a minimum number of people.

I don’t think HoT is as hard as people are making it out to be, and there were plenty of people complaining when the first Orr was nerfed too. Orr is a joke today. It’s not more fun…for people like me.

You make a lot of fair points, but I can’t take to many of them to heart. I’ve seen it happen in multiple MMO’s where dev’s make the endgame content “challenging” and after the initial hype of “new” content/rewards, people stop playing those aspects of the game, or the game overall. You don’t have to make content “hard(er)” to make it engaging.

I watched as people wanted dungeons to be less of a kitten. They were abandoned and the Dungeons subforum became a cesspool of people wanting to enjoy content and ultimately not being able to. Devs stopped posting in it altogether. It went from people trying to drudge through it, to people selling runs for harder paths (mostly Arah), to practically a ghost town.

Players level in vanilla all the time. Sometime because they “have” to because they want to get a new class to 80, but it’s so easy to get level boosts and tomes anyone who finds leveling boring can skip most/all of it anyways. Many enjoy it just because it’s laidback. People are running the old world bosses constantly, but Temple of Grenth? Not as much. I thought people wanted challenging content? I remember people were furious with Teq and Wurm Trio.

While only a few aspects of the game, it’s almost like a metaphor for everything else “endgame.” Any new players that enjoy the easygoing style while leveling vanilla are going to hit a wall or try to bust through it when they get to HoT. Likewise anyone who left they game feeling it was grindy, unrewarding, or annoying is not terribly likely to come back when there’s new content released, let alone for any nostalgic value.

You’re right, I don’t have the numbers. But I don’t need them to use sound logic. This game’s not new anymore. The initial hype of a new MMO is gone and we’re in the adult phase, and I find it hard to deny that the game’s not continuing to lose steam, especially after the move to Free to play and the mixed to poor reception HoT has received.

Legendary Defender of Casuals

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

‘hot ruining GW2’ is childish hyperbolic self centered nonsense that you see a lot in this current culture of self entitlement. This is how it should go, if you don’t like the Hot elements, avoid them and play the parts you do enjoy, if you don’t enjoy anything, take a break or move on. It really is that simple.

No. It’s not that simple.

HoT is supposed to be the game going forward. Ongoing updates tied to HoT guarantee that. HoT definitely does not appeal to everyone, but it should have if ANet had any interest in maintaining interest among the group they repeatedly dumbed the vanilla game down for. That’s what’s perplexing to me. They nerf the base game over, and over and over and then have their pride stung by the accusations of lack of challenge. They ought to make up their kittening minds who their target audience is.

The idea that HoT is “how it should be” is every bit as self-centered and entitled as the opposite. There’s no “should be.” If ANet decides to reverse course — again — then you’ll be the one that’s hyperbolic-- unless your agenda is that ANet can do no wrong no matter what they do.

I think you’re simplifying this. Anet didn’t dumb down the base game to make it so that it’s braindead easy and ignore anything getting harder. They’ve constantly added harder content in. Drytop is harder than core Tyria and so is Silverwastes. Many of the mobs in Silverwastes are similar to HoT mobs.

The Living Story got MUCH harder as it progressed. Anet mostly changed the earlier part of the game to make it so people could get their footing, but make no mistake, elements of the game did get harder.

There were several challenging fights in LS 2 and achievements for that are a lot lot harder.

Anet changed the beginning part of the game ot try to stop people who couldn’t do even that from staying with the game. They didn’t change Arah path 4. They made Shatterer harder, Tequatl harder and introduced Triple Threat.

What about the Queen’s Pavaillion? That was hard content too, particularly Liadri.

No, Anet has added hard content to this game all along. They simply want to add enough of it for the most disenfranchised group.

If I’m simplifying, so are you. While there’s been an effort to add challenge, there has also been a contradictory initiative to subtract it. Then we get HoT, where the easy stuff is Tigers — who are more like Tiggers.

The problem I have is not that ANet adds challenge, it’s that the core game is very poor preparation for HoT, both in terms of teaching the use of mechanics and preparing players for the idea that they ought to use them. It’s also that the company has sent mixed messages about what it’s offering. This can (and maybe has) become a problem when they expect all their active followers to keep buying their XPac’s to stay current. It’s not like HoT was a side track for your “disenfranchised group.”

You know as well as I do that ANet swings like a pendulum do (props if you get the reference). We don’t at this point know how they’ll swing down the road. Personally, I expect mob difficulty to be consistent with HoT, but for them to iterate things like map design and maybe things like map meta’s so there’s more for small groups or solos to do. I could be way wrong, though.

I just don’t care for points like the one I responded to. There’s no right or wrong, no “way it should be.” It’s just a game, not physics where there are natural laws.

I agree with you, particularly your last line. And I agree with Anet swinging like a penduluum (nope don’t get the reference), but I believe there’s a reason why they swing like a penduluum. We’re seeing things in real time, they’re seeing things in dev time. When people ask for more challenging content, all that stuff takes time to create. A lot of time. A long time. And during the time, the other easier content isn’t really being worked on, because Anet doesn’t have enough staff to get everything done at all once. so they move this way and everything gets done then they move that way and everything gets done. From the outside looking in, it definitely looks like wild pendulum swings, but from their point of view, they’re just playing catch up all the time.

In a perfect world there would be time and staff to work on everything, but I see Anet as adding content to the game for the most disenfranchised portion of the game.

For years now, casuals like myself have gotten their way almost all the time. They finally give something to harder core people and yes, it’s taken 9 months, but I don’t see where I can complain being that I was the target audience for three years. Now it’s someone else’s turn.

Now that the hard core guys got their raid, there’s going to be more living story. It’s my turn again. Sure it looks like a pendulum but in the end, it’s just taking a long time to get to the next bit.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Anet doesn’t have enough staff to get everything done at all once.

what you’re seeing is lack of organization and not lack of staff.

FFXIV functions under around 40 (!!!) staff. It’s a far more expensive game but it works under 1/4th the staff of Anet and has to deliver more content on a faster base.

The fact that Anet recalled their 3 people that were working on future legendaries, kind of shows it. They needed 3 people badly enough to dismiss something that was supposed to be in the expansion.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I’ve always thought people wanting the game to be harder, were steering this game into a ditch. Simply put, an MMO, or any game really, should be fun.

Heart of Thorns for me was basically Cursed shore all over again, 4 whole zones of it, with a new set of living story chapters glazed on top. Back in “vanilla” most players hated Orr. The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

So here we are with Orr 2.0. Meta-events with grindy rewards keep them populated to some extent, but for how long? Ever since the Teq revamp it seems like Anet’s been on a mission to “make the players get better” or to play the way they want you to instead of how you want to.

I loved “vanilla” GW2. I spent a lot of time and money into the game at that time. Leveling/PvE was by far my favorite aspect, but I enjoyed some PvP, WvW, and occasionally dungeons as well. I guess when I heard about the HoT expansion my hopes were that it was going to be more zones and content like I’d enjoyed when first playing the game. Sadly it seems like they really threw their winning formula away.

The simple fact is, nobody wants to drudge through a game. There’s no love or nostalgia for most games that are annoying to play. It’s this design vision that has hurt more MMO’s in the last 5-7 years than helped they retain their player base. I had high hopes for HoT, but after everything GW2 is a completely different game now, one I don’t really find a lot of enjoyment in sticking around for.

You’re right. The game should be fun. I find the HOT zones more fun than the core Tyria zones. Unfortunately no one demographic has a monopoly on what fun is. You assume easier is funner but that’s not true for many. How many? No one really knows.

Assuming the ridiculously easy open world is enjoyable to everyone (particularly when we see so many complaints about how boring leveling is), is a misnomer. Assuming you’re talking for some sort of majority might well be a misnomer too.

It’s true that most people who were playing the game before the expansion hit were probably enjoying the more casual content. It’s also likely true that many who wanted harder content walked away from the game, only to return when HoT launched.

Since neither you or I have the numbers, it comes down to what it’s always come down to. Finding a middle ground between ridiculously hard and kitten easy. Unfortunately the balance is different for everyone.

Make it too easy and you lose a percentage of people. Make it too hard and you lose a different percentage of people. The trick is to make it so that you lose a minimum number of people.

I don’t think HoT is as hard as people are making it out to be, and there were plenty of people complaining when the first Orr was nerfed too. Orr is a joke today. It’s not more fun…for people like me.

You make a lot of fair points, but I can’t take to many of them to heart. I’ve seen it happen in multiple MMO’s where dev’s make the endgame content “challenging” and after the initial hype of “new” content/rewards, people stop playing those aspects of the game, or the game overall. You don’t have to make content “hard(er)” to make it engaging.

I watched as people wanted dungeons to be less of a kitten. They were abandoned and the Dungeons subforum became a cesspool of people wanting to enjoy content and ultimately not being able to. Devs stopped posting in it altogether. It went from people trying to drudge through it, to people selling runs for harder paths (mostly Arah), to practically a ghost town.

Players level in vanilla all the time. Sometime because they “have” to because they want to get a new class to 80, but it’s so easy to get level boosts and tomes anyone who finds leveling boring can skip most/all of it anyways. Many enjoy it just because it’s laidback. People are running the old world bosses constantly, but Temple of Grenth? Not as much. I thought people wanted challenging content? I remember people were furious with Teq and Wurm Trio.

While only a few aspects of the game, it’s almost like a metaphor for everything else “endgame.” Any new players that enjoy the easygoing style while leveling vanilla are going to hit a wall or try to bust through it when they get to HoT. Likewise anyone who left they game feeling it was grindy, unrewarding, or annoying is not terribly likely to come back when there’s new content released, let alone for any nostalgic value.

You’re right, I don’t have the numbers. But I don’t need them to use sound logic. This game’s not new anymore. The initial hype of a new MMO is gone and we’re in the adult phase, and I find it hard to deny that the game’s not continuing to lose steam, especially after the move to Free to play and the mixed to poor reception HoT has received.

They may have missed their mark with HoT, but I think they’ve made it a lot more palatable since then. The thing is they’re trying to attract/retain players who want that level of challenge while also catering to players who find core Tyria more their speed. That’s a difficult balance to strike and you can see that conflict playing out here on the forums and in the game.

For instance, the other day I decided to try one of the classes I hadn’t tried yet (warrior). So I used a bunch of tomes to bypass the leveling process, used some bladed armor boxes to gear up, and hit the jungle with no idea what I was doing with the class (but plenty of experience in HoT!).

I ended up running into my total opposite in TD. I happened to ask in map chat if anyone wanted to run around and grab all the HPs/WPs and this guy responded. Nice guy. We ran all over the map unlocking those HPs and I showed him a lot of tricks on how to get around. But it quickly became apparent that we had very disparate skill levels and ideas of what constitutes “fun”.

He was getting caught up and killed by chak, every veteran was a fight for his life, and he quickly died on every single champion, leaving me to carry the fight. No big deal. It turns out warriors are pretty hard to kill. But I can only imagine how this guy must feel trying to tackle this place on his own. Always lost and dying to every pack of chak that comes walking through.

Based on my experiences helping other players so far, I’d say this guy was on the lower end of the skill spectrum. But it illustrates the point that ANet is trying to balance between vastly different interests. I’m taking on champions and diving right into the maze, while others are stuck at the first WP, wondering which way to go and how they’re going to survive long enough to get there.

How do you design maps for players who like the TD experience, for instance, while also catering to the “Queensdale” types? I don’t see it happening on the same map! So maybe the next expansion they’ll do a split and offer different types of maps instead of all one way? I don’t know what the answer is. I just hope we see more of TD, even while I completely understand the frustrations of players who would rather burn the current TD and never speak of it again.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Anet doesn’t have enough staff to get everything done at all once.

what you’re seeing is lack of organization and not lack of staff.

FFXIV functions under around 40 (!!!) staff. It’s a far more expensive game but it works under 1/4th the staff of Anet and has to deliver more content on a faster base.

The fact that Anet recalled their 3 people that were working on future legendaries, kind of shows it. They needed 3 people badly enough to dismiss something that was supposed to be in the expansion.

I’d go and put the new Anet maps against any FF XIV maps. I played that game. It’s not centered around dynamic events. It’s centered around quests and instances, which are quicker and easier to program.

I’m relatively sure each zone in Guild Wars 2 takes far far longer to program and detail than anything in FFXIV.

So they have a huge budget and there are still people on the FF XIV forums that complain about lack of specific content. That is, the leveling content is pretty much one and done. It’s mostly dungeons and raids…instances. Again mostly easier to program.

If you like dungeons and raids I suppose that’s a fortunate thing, but I have a guy who just came back to Guild Wars 2 from FF XIV because there wasn’t anything for him to do there.

To each his own I suppose.

I found that game almost unplayable, for my personal play style.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

I’d go and put the new Anet maps against any FF XIV maps. I played that game. It’s not centered around dynamic events. It’s centered around quests and instances, which are quicker and easier to program.

I’m relatively sure each zone in Guild Wars 2 takes far far longer to program and detail than anything in FFXIV.

So they have a huge budget and there are still people on the FF XIV forums that complain about lack of specific content. That is, the leveling content is pretty much one and done. It’s mostly dungeons and raids…instances. Again mostly easier to program.

If you like dungeons and raids I suppose that’s a fortunate thing, but I have a guy who just came back to Guild Wars 2 from FF XIV because there wasn’t anything for him to do there.

To each his own I suppose.

I found that game almost unplayable, for my personal play style.

the point is, Anet has 4X the developers. What are they doing with them? If 3 people that made on legendaries make such a big difference that they had to pull them off it, it reeks of bad management to me. Either that, or overhiring in positions that might as well have less people assigned to them.

Oh and for leveling content? They still produce 2H of story + a sidequest/sidequests every 3 months. On top of extra raids and dungeons. Anet managed to focus on their raid solely (pretty much) for the last 9 months. With over 200 people working for them they surely could have had living story season 3 running along side it.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I’d go and put the new Anet maps against any FF XIV maps. I played that game. It’s not centered around dynamic events. It’s centered around quests and instances, which are quicker and easier to program.

I’m relatively sure each zone in Guild Wars 2 takes far far longer to program and detail than anything in FFXIV.

So they have a huge budget and there are still people on the FF XIV forums that complain about lack of specific content. That is, the leveling content is pretty much one and done. It’s mostly dungeons and raids…instances. Again mostly easier to program.

If you like dungeons and raids I suppose that’s a fortunate thing, but I have a guy who just came back to Guild Wars 2 from FF XIV because there wasn’t anything for him to do there.

To each his own I suppose.

I found that game almost unplayable, for my personal play style.

the point is, Anet has 4X the developers. What are they doing with them? If 3 people that made on legendaries make such a big difference that they had to pull them off it, it reeks of bad management to me. Either that, or overhiring in positions that might as well have less people assigned to them.

Oh and for leveling content? They still produce 2H of story + a sidequest/sidequests every 3 months. On top of extra raids and dungeons. Anet managed to focus on their raid solely (pretty much) for the last 9 months. With over 200 people working for them they surely could have had living story season 3 running along side it.

Different engine, different game altogether. Anet had only 50 people working on Guild Wars 1 and produced content much faster. But many of the same devs were there for Guild Wars 2 and they couldn’t do that.

Because the game engine is that much older, because actual content types are harder to develop. At least that’s my theory.

I can go to two different restaurants and order the same meal. One restaurant can prepare that meal in 3 minutes and another in 20 with the same amount of people. It doesn’t make the 3 minute meal better.

They’re different games, using different engines with different priorities. There’s no way without having worked on both games the difference in what needs to be done to produce content.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Different engine, different game altogether. Anet had only 50 people working on Guild Wars 1 and produced content much faster. But many of the same devs were there for Guild Wars 2 and they couldn’t do that.

Because the game engine is that much older, because actual content types are harder to develop. At least that’s my theory.

I can go to two different restaurants and order the same meal. One restaurant can prepare that meal in 3 minutes and another in 20 with the same amount of people. It doesn’t make the 3 minute meal better.

They’re different games, using different engines with different priorities. There’s no way without having worked on both games the difference in what needs to be done to produce content.

the other game is built on wonky ground too though. Heck the reason why there’s no flying in previous zones is because they’re fully 2D. There’s no 3rd plane. Not to mention building and preparing areas compact enough for PS3 to even run.

We should hold GW2 to a higher standard honestly.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Different engine, different game altogether. Anet had only 50 people working on Guild Wars 1 and produced content much faster. But many of the same devs were there for Guild Wars 2 and they couldn’t do that.

Because the game engine is that much older, because actual content types are harder to develop. At least that’s my theory.

I can go to two different restaurants and order the same meal. One restaurant can prepare that meal in 3 minutes and another in 20 with the same amount of people. It doesn’t make the 3 minute meal better.

They’re different games, using different engines with different priorities. There’s no way without having worked on both games the difference in what needs to be done to produce content.

the other game is built on wonky ground too though. Heck the reason why there’s no flying in previous zones is because they’re fully 2D. There’s no 3rd plane. Not to mention building and preparing areas compact enough for PS3 to even run.

We should hold GW2 to a higher standard honestly.

Well you just said it. It’s a 2D game. You don’t think that would be easier to program?

What standard? Do you actually know what’s possible to create and not create with the circumstances of this specific game. Games aren’t one size fits all, any more than cooking is.

More to the point, if FF XIV created 100 times the content for 1/10th of the price, most of that content wouldn’t interest me anyway. This is the KIND of content I want.

Anyone can take one look at the graphics of the two games and see which would take longer to produce.

It’s great to hold people to higher standards. But before we do that, we have to know what is and isn’t possible. I see all these people saying this should be done faster or that should be done faster.

But I find it hard to believe that those people could do better or differently if they were working within the same set of circumstances.

(edited by Vayne.8563)

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

I agree with you, particularly your last line. And I agree with Anet swinging like a pendulum (nope don’t get the reference)

I guess it dates me. Google England Swings.

But I believe there’s a reason why they swing like a pendulum. We’re seeing things in real time, they’re seeing things in dev time. When people ask for more challenging content, all that stuff takes time to create. A lot of time. A long time. And during the time, the other easier content isn’t really being worked on, because Anet doesn’t have enough staff to get everything done at all once. so they move this way and everything gets done then they move that way and everything gets done. From the outside looking in, it definitely looks like wild pendulum swings, but from their point of view, they’re just playing catch up all the time.

I have little doubt this is the case.

In a perfect world there would be time and staff to work on everything, but I see Anet as adding content to the game for the most disenfranchised portion of the game.

But, they do this selectively. WvW-only players have felt like tail-end Charlie for much of the game’s existence.

For years now, casuals like myself have gotten their way almost all the time. They finally give something to harder core people and yes, it’s taken 9 months, but I don’t see where I can complain being that I was the target audience for three years. Now it’s someone else’s turn.

I agree with that as well. Harder, instanced content has been almost as neglected as WvW. I didn’t and still don’t oppose raids. Fortunately, ANet seems able to provide raids while also working on other stuff.

Now that the hard core guys got their raid, there’s going to be more living story. It’s my turn again. Sure it looks like a pendulum but in the end, it’s just taking a long time to get to the next bit.

Except I don’t think that LS was delayed until the raid was completed. I think the raid just took that long, and the 3-4 month gaps between wings is what allowed the raid team to finish those encounters. I suspect they dipped into the 30-dev support pool some, but that the XPac 2 and the remaining 114 Live team devs were doing their own thing. Also, ANet has explained that the lead time for story is lengthy. I suspect it was delayed more due to HoT revamp than anything else.

That said, while raids are getting hate now, there’s still the issue of HoT persistent world, which has gotten more hate than raids, at least over time. As you pointed out earlier, Anet has been upping the ante on challenge in the persistent world since, well, Karka. There’s two things about that:

  1. Harder encounters have been added to core a lot. As far as it goes, though, they’ve backed off on it some and people got used to it some. Challenge in PvE is always going to suffer from diminishing returns, even when the challenge remains the same mathematically. Thus, the bar is always moving.
  2. Despite harder encounters added to core persistent PvE over time, there was always something people could do that was current, and at least relatively easy. While this is still true in HoT, it’s less true, and finding that easier stuff is not that easy if a player doesn’t like navigating the maps or has to fight his/her way through harder mobs to look for it. Yet, HoT is the game going forward. That’s why we see complaints from some players. The easy stuff in core is just as old for them as it is for anyone else. They had to buy HoT to get access to LS, but they don’t feel like the maps offer them anything.

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Well you just said it. It’s a 2D game. You don’t think that would be easier to program?

3D game, 2D environment for ARR. For heavensward they butchered the engine enough to introduce full on flying and the Z axis. Because you just called it a 2D game, I’ll add a picture, just in case you’re getting confused:

http://i.imgur.com/27BgQG1.jpg

does that look 2D to you?
That being said, the point is, their engine is also a mess. They developed 1.0 on it in 2010, had to scrap the whole thing due to it being very unpopular and make the whole game anew in 2 years, so they never changed the engine.

More to the point, if FF XIV created 100 times the content for 1/10th of the price, most of that content wouldn’t interest me anyway. This is the KIND of content I want.

so you don’t like:
crafting,
dungeons,
raids,
pvp,
dynamic events
and story?

What do you do in GW2 then? WvW only? o.o

It’s great to hold people to higher standards. But before we do that, we have to know what is and isn’t possible. I see all these people saying this should be done faster or that should be done faster.

But I find it hard to believe that those people could do better or differently if they were working within the same set of circumstances.

Other MMOs are managing more. So of course there’s a higher bar to reach. GW2 managed more before. Heck they managed to introduce fractals, 3 new zones and by-weekly then monthly updates including story updates. There has been barely any content in the past 1.5 years (content draught before expansion and pretty much just one raid getting completed after) and you think that that is alright?

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Well you just said it. It’s a 2D game. You don’t think that would be easier to program?

3D game, 2D environment for ARR. For heavensward they butchered the engine enough to introduce full on flying and the Z axis. Because you just called it a 2D game, I’ll add a picture, just in case you’re getting confused:

http://i.imgur.com/27BgQG1.jpg

does that look 2D to you?
That being said, the point is, their engine is also a mess. They developed 1.0 on it in 2010, had to scrap the whole thing due to it being very unpopular and make the whole game anew in 2 years, so they never changed the engine.

More to the point, if FF XIV created 100 times the content for 1/10th of the price, most of that content wouldn’t interest me anyway. This is the KIND of content I want.

so you don’t like:
crafting,
dungeons,
raids,
pvp,
dynamic events
and story?

What do you do in GW2 then? WvW only? o.o

It’s great to hold people to higher standards. But before we do that, we have to know what is and isn’t possible. I see all these people saying this should be done faster or that should be done faster.

But I find it hard to believe that those people could do better or differently if they were working within the same set of circumstances.

Other MMOs are managing more. So of course there’s a higher bar to reach. GW2 managed more before. Heck they managed to introduce fractals, 3 new zones and by-weekly then monthly updates including story updates. There has been barely any content in the past 1.5 years (content draught before expansion and pretty much just one raid getting completed after) and you think that that is alright?

Are other MMOs managing more? I’ve yet to play a single MMO that has zones like the jungle. Not one. I don’t find most MMO zones all that interesting, and that’s not surprising. Most MMO zones are meant to be played once while leveling in the first place. Not something you should keep going back to.

You talk about holding Guild Wars 2 to a higher standard. I’ve seen very very few MMO expansions I’ve liked as much as I liked HoT and that’s the issue.

You didn’t like HoT so of course you want to hold the game to a higher standard. Where as some of us really like HoT a lot, and so that doesn’t really make much sense from that point of view.

I think the HoT standard is higher than you do.

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Posted by: darkace.8925

darkace.8925

Anet doesn’t have enough staff to get everything done at all once.

what you’re seeing is lack of organization and not lack of staff.

Agreed. That they’ve got this massive staff, yet continuously fail to deliver on what they aspire to do says quite clearly the resources they have aren’t utilized well. One need look no further than HOT’s dropped legendary weapons to know the score on this account.

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

I think the Living World 3 is actually the part of HoT that wasn’t ready for launch that we will finally get to play. Maybe the game will feel more complete when it is released.

It doesn’t excuse the lack of legendaries they announced however.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Anet doesn’t have enough staff to get everything done at all once.

what you’re seeing is lack of organization and not lack of staff.

Agreed. That they’ve got this massive staff, yet continuously fail to deliver on what they aspire to do says quite clearly the resources they have aren’t utilized well. One need look no further than HOT’s dropped legendary weapons to know the score on this account.

Or they thought people would make them and people weren’t making them and they made a decision to stop because people weren’t utilising the content in large enough numbers.

A single example with no factual basis for the determining of the decision says very little. It’s proof of nothing.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I think the Living World 3 is actually the part of HoT that wasn’t ready for launch that we will finally get to play. Maybe the game will feel more complete when it is released.

It doesn’t excuse the lack of legendaries they announced however.

The Living World Season 3 was talked about before HoT launched. I would be immensely surprised of this was true.

Think about it. Personal story we kill Zhaitan. After Zhaitan dies, the personal story ends. Season 1 we face Scarlet. After Scarlet dies the story ends.

The only exception was season 2 which was sort of a prologue for HoT. Really season 2 was part of the HoT story because it was about Mordremoth. We killed Mordremoth and the story ended.

This is how it’s worked since launch. What we’ll be seeing is the content that will bridge the gap to the next expansion story.

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Posted by: General Health.9678

General Health.9678

The only reason people even went to Orr outside of map completion or Obi shards was because of Anet’s amazing ability to keep the player base poor which soon ended when people discovered that world bosses and CoF could make them more gold with less effort.

Well that’s very negative.
People went because the story took them there or because they wanted temple armour or they’d heard it was good teaming and good drops. Tons of positives. Whilst there you found it was hard to solo but the events lend themselves to the zerg. I used to drop in around level 60 with terrible gear and just level to 80 and get exotics. Still fun to do, still a decent population in Orr too, I go back to gather ori and ancient wood and truffles fairly regularly and still love joining in an Ooze/Giant/Mel zerg.

Blame Abaddon, he loves your tears.
pve, raid, pvp, fractal, dungeon, world clearing, legendary questing.. Zapped!

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

Compared to HoT, though, Orr is tedious and same-y, with little enemy variation. And I find the HoT enemies far more satisfying to fight, even if Mordrem Guard Breaker’s breakbars are a bit obnoxious (And those stupid intermittently-invulnerable ones should never spawn in battles with less than 10 players in the immediate vicinity).

Though, on the other hand, Orr doesn’t have the godkitten Saurians. Seriously – are there any of these that DON’T have “Screw you” mechanics?

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Posted by: Avster.1935

Avster.1935

The overwhelming boredom was alleviated with HoT release. Everything in core release felt easy. Nothing was challenging, it was just “farm gold to buy skin X” over and over and over again. If you were a beta player, everything that core Tyria provided could / was completed in the 3 year span (unless you strictly WvW’d or sPvP’d). It was great, but we needed more. HoT came at the right time, if not a bit late. Consider it a bundled content release, much like what they are planning to do with LS3.

Also don’t get me wrong, we still have to “farm gold to buy X skin”, but variety is very much welcomed. The amazing things we did get with HoT was gliding and challenging content (raids and quality open world content). Once doesn’t simply walk through heavily infested enemy territory expecting to one-shot the mobs. Let’s be real though, most average skilled GW2ers went, “oh my god I can’t press #1 and kill things?” and that is where things went wrong. These players were so fed with easy content, they can’t handle something that requires them to play smart / better / know their class, etc. Instead of improving, what do they do? Come to forums and complain “games too hard, Anet is not sticking to manifesto, go back to whatever hardcore game you were playing before GW2 you elitists!”.

Also, contrary to some posts here. Specialization is THE BEST way to horizontally expand classes. I have no idea why people complain about it. The only thing that worries me is whether they will be able to continue on this road, now that they have “laid down the foundation”.

If I had to complain about things regarding HoT, it would be the lack of armor skins. Compared to original release, for the $ amount we paid for the expansion, the number of armor skins released with HoT is borderline shameful. The second complaint would be about the meta event timer, but I do understand why it is timed as such though, it’s just a bit unfortunate.

Evelyn Whitehawk | Exalted Legend | Demons’s Demise | I Transmuted My Legendary Medium Coat

(edited by Avster.1935)

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Specialization is THE BEST way to horizontally expand classes.

In theory, but not in practice as we’ve seen with HoT.

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Posted by: UnbentMars.9126

UnbentMars.9126

Specialization is THE BEST way to horizontally expand classes.

In theory, but not in practice as we’ve seen with HoT.

How so?

Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”

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Posted by: vesica tempestas.1563

vesica tempestas.1563

Specialization is THE BEST way to horizontally expand classes.

In theory, but not in practice as we’ve seen with HoT.

only if your a meta monkey, otherwise you can indeed mix the new talents with the old . The point however was about horizontal expansion of skills like GW2 as apposed to the WOW model for example with its ‘talent pruning’ every expansion to allow for vertical power progression.


“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Specialization is THE BEST way to horizontally expand classes.

In theory, but not in practice as we’ve seen with HoT.

How so?

Horizontal means to the side, as in one isn’t greater than the other, and that’s just simply not the fact in most cases when we’re talking about HoT specializations and HoT in general.

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Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

Specialization is THE BEST way to horizontally expand classes.

In theory, but not in practice as we’ve seen with HoT.

How so?

Horizontal means to the side, as in one isn’t greater than the other, and that’s just simply not the fact in most cases when we’re talking about HoT specializations and HoT in general.

Due to their basic design, Elite specializations simply can’t be horizontal compliments to the base specs because they can be stacked with the base specs

Their design intent was always that they are horizontal adjustments in relation ot other elite specs because they can’t be combined.

Anet’s failing was releasing HoT with only one choice of Elite spec, as all future balance is supposed to revolve around the assumption that players equip one elite spec and 2 base specs.

Alternately, they could have adjusted/considered one of the core specs as “elite” and buffed it accordingly so it fit better with the new system, however that would have had the opposite effect, creating even less build options than simply letting the core specs all be considered on par with one another and stackable.

It is impossible as a function of basic design for a core spec build to remain competitive with Elite spec builds, simply because core specs can combine with elite specs however the user chooses.

Use thief for example. Lets say acro was a viable alternative to daredevil. You can stack acro with daredevil. This means that you still have an apex predator build compared to an all base spec build simply because your base specs would be lacking that stacked endurance traits.

The same goes for the other elite specs. If an elite spec offers duplicate functionality to an existing spec (and in some ways they have to) then if core specs were reasonable alternatives, the only result would be, effectively, even less build variety. Your more efficient option would always be elite+complimentarybase+otherbase. Effectively, you’d turn elite specs in to a system that takes up 2 trait lines rather than one.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Or they thought people would make them and people weren’t making them and they made a decision to stop because people weren’t utilising the content in large enough numbers.

A single example with no factual basis for the determining of the decision says very little. It’s proof of nothing.

yeah, the world doesn’t work that way. If you advertise something on your game box cover, you don’t stop making it because “not enough people will use it”. If that statement was how it worked, then raids would never have continued outside of wing one, as raids in any MMO is the content for a minority.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Or they thought people would make them and people weren’t making them and they made a decision to stop because people weren’t utilising the content in large enough numbers.

A single example with no factual basis for the determining of the decision says very little. It’s proof of nothing.

yeah, the world doesn’t work that way. If you advertise something on your game box cover, you don’t stop making it because “not enough people will use it”. If that statement was how it worked, then raids would never have continued outside of wing one, as raids in any MMO is the content for a minority.

Actually the world works exactly that way. You’re confusing an MMO where you sell a service, you’re paying for entrance, to a product that you take home and never changes.

As an example, I’ve seen amusement parks advertise a specific ride and close the ride due to either safety concerns or they just couldn’t get it to work right. You’re paying admission to the park instead of an actual ride.

I’ve seen restaurants advertise a change and it didn’t work and they changed back.

MMOs are sold with the understanding that it can call change and MMOs change all the time and many times those changes are different from the product you bought.

Because what they’re actually selling is a key to enter the game, not what’s specifically in the game itself.

In the real world products change all the time.

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Posted by: Mirta.5029

Mirta.5029

Or they thought people would make them and people weren’t making them and they made a decision to stop because people weren’t utilising the content in large enough numbers.

A single example with no factual basis for the determining of the decision says very little. It’s proof of nothing.

yeah, the world doesn’t work that way. If you advertise something on your game box cover, you don’t stop making it because “not enough people will use it”. If that statement was how it worked, then raids would never have continued outside of wing one, as raids in any MMO is the content for a minority.

Actually the world works exactly that way. You’re confusing an MMO where you sell a service, you’re paying for entrance, to a product that you take home and never changes.

As an example, I’ve seen amusement parks advertise a specific ride and close the ride due to either safety concerns or they just couldn’t get it to work right. You’re paying admission to the park instead of an actual ride.

I’ve seen restaurants advertise a change and it didn’t work and they changed back.

MMOs are sold with the understanding that it can call change and MMOs change all the time and many times those changes are different from the product you bought.

Because what they’re actually selling is a key to enter the game, not what’s specifically in the game itself.

In the real world products change all the time.

it’s one thing to deliver, decide that it’s not worth it and never take that direction again, it’s another thing to sell a product advertising a specific thing and then never put it in the game. That’s sue material right there.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Or they thought people would make them and people weren’t making them and they made a decision to stop because people weren’t utilising the content in large enough numbers.

A single example with no factual basis for the determining of the decision says very little. It’s proof of nothing.

yeah, the world doesn’t work that way. If you advertise something on your game box cover, you don’t stop making it because “not enough people will use it”. If that statement was how it worked, then raids would never have continued outside of wing one, as raids in any MMO is the content for a minority.

Actually the world works exactly that way. You’re confusing an MMO where you sell a service, you’re paying for entrance, to a product that you take home and never changes.

As an example, I’ve seen amusement parks advertise a specific ride and close the ride due to either safety concerns or they just couldn’t get it to work right. You’re paying admission to the park instead of an actual ride.

I’ve seen restaurants advertise a change and it didn’t work and they changed back.

MMOs are sold with the understanding that it can call change and MMOs change all the time and many times those changes are different from the product you bought.

Because what they’re actually selling is a key to enter the game, not what’s specifically in the game itself.

In the real world products change all the time.

it’s one thing to deliver, decide that it’s not worth it and never take that direction again, it’s another thing to sell a product advertising a specific thing and then never put it in the game. That’s sue material right there.

I’m pretty sure it’s not sue material. You might be able to get the purchase price for the game back, if it ever made it to court, which I doubt. False advertising isn’t as easy to prove as people think it is.

Anet advertised a feature and if people didnt’ use that feature, Anet changed it. And, all the did was delay it indefinitely. If they said these will never appear in game, you MIGHT have a point. I don’t even think so then. But as it stands they said delayed indefinitely which is not sue material.

Not even close to sue material. I’m not sure why anyone would think it is.

(edited by Vayne.8563)

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Posted by: Dashingsteel.3410

Dashingsteel.3410

Are you saying that players didn’t use the legendary journies feature? I have seen way too many of the new legendaries to believe that.

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Posted by: Manasa Devi.7958

Manasa Devi.7958

It ruined the game for me in that it was a huge letdown.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

It ruined the game for me in that it was a huge letdown.

You’ve been complaining about the game since long before HoT. Like years. So how is it HOT ruined the game for you when you were so unhappy before HoT?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Are you saying that players didn’t use the legendary journies feature? I have seen way too many of the new legendaries to believe that.

I have a guild of well over 200 people. 4 of us have gone for new legendaries. For most casual players they’re far too expensive. I’m not sure annecdotally how many you’ve seen, but being that so many players, according to those that say they know, didn’t buy HoT, I don’t see how such a large percentage could possibly be working on it.

It’s funny, people try to assure me the expansion didn’t sell. then try to convince me everyone has a HoT weapon.

Which is it?