Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

NikeEU.7690:

Leo G.4501:

And yet it tends to be the more controversial aspect of a build.

It’s not controversial at all, among people who take the time to understand the game and character building system. It’s a huge controversy among players who install the game for the first time, dream of playing a clerics tank, and then get their dreams crushed by the reality of the game and the system. How about everyone agree that people who are ignorant should buck up and understand the game instead of dumbing the game down to their level of ignorance?

There are more perspectives than you’re limiting yourself to accepting. Rather than make up 2 camps of thoughts (the “wrong ignorant” side and then “your side”) to dismiss all argument, why not actually engage in discussion? Perhaps you’ll learn something.

If you want people to discuss things with you, drop the ego.
You are far from a great player. That much is clear from your posts.
Accept the criticism of your ideas, instead of ignoring it.
Make the effort to learn why things won’t work.

For example, aegis blocks x% damage scaling with toughness (full toughness major stat to achieve 100% damage reduction):
If I have to load up with toughness, I dont even need to use aegis. The toughness will reduce the damage to trivial. If I don’t need aegis, what use is it?
If it doesn’t stop 100% of a hit, then I’d rather dodge, rendering it useless.
At best you make it a single use protection, again, rendering it obsolete.
Timing an aegis takes knowledge, reflexes.
Knowledge of the boss, what attacks require aegis, what the telegraph is for them. Then reflexes to throw it when its needed, and not get munched (don’t forget, only blocks ONE HIT) by some stray trash mob/add/summon/auto attack.

This is counterplay. You actively use an ability to counteract an enemy ability.
Forcing me to take toughness ( for aegis to be worthwhile over dodging) means I can just pay the attack no mind, and go on bashing my 1 key.

reduced counterplay means reduced learning curve for a fight. It means a fight is easier to learn. It becomes more faceroll 1spam 2 win.

Fact is your suggestion is to make things easier.
Alternatively: we just load up with vigor traits or energy sigils, good players are forced to run slower, and it becomes even harder to learn to play without toughness gear, due to even greater reliance upon dodging, and less help from a guardian. More people get kicked from pugs for failing to dodge attacks. More QQ about getting kicked from group at final bosses. More QQ about not being accepted into meta parties. More QQ about being held back by those reliant on toughness. All this leading to more people leaving the game. If you want gw2 to burn, please do everyone a favor and play another game.

Next problem: What if the attack I use aegis to block has conditions or stun?
Will aegis only function as a damage reduction like protection, or will it reduce the stun/condi durations?

Sure not everyone wants PvE to be about counterplay. But thats how gw2 is. There are plenty of areas ( eg much of the open world) where counter play is very minimal. There are areas where counterplay is much more useful ( eg fractals/ some dungeons).
There are plenty who want MORE counterplay, not less. At least in end-game content.

This has been explained to you several times. You refuse to accept the criticism of your idea.

tl;dr

Perhaps you should stop dismissing others arguments, and attempt to learn something yourself, before you go around calling some of the best PvE-ers in gw2(who incidentally, have spent a lot of time learning and discussing how the game works) out to do the same.

Sagat.3285:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

condi can do a ton of damage, even with 5 man groups, the problem is that people bump heads,
and the other problem is even if they have high dps, its delayed, the top end game isnt about extended dps, its about burst dps in the first 10 seconds.

However, this doesnt mean its not viable, or strong, just that its not top level speed clear numbers, it wont kill things in the first 10-20 seconds, but it will do fine in the first 20-40, which i say still lies in the viable range.

It’s not just that, it also doesn’t scale well with buffs/synergy. It’s not affected by vulnerability IIRC, and while fury helps crits which can help condi application, not only does that just mean you begin to cap out earlier but it also doesn’t scale as well as power damage does with it as not only are you getting the higher power damage but also boosted even higher thanks to ferocity.

Condi’s certainly have their issues, but still have their uses.

condi damage should not work the same as direct damage, it supposed to be build up damage, it ignores armor, protection and it continues to do damage after application. (while you run or avoid) Its also generally tied to skills that are hard to avoid,(near instant cast) and can operate at a range.

yeah, it has disadvantages, but it also has advantages.
the main disadvantage was the condi cap on intensity stacking effects, which they are removing. That alone may end up making them fairly strong. Yeah condi doesnt work the same way as direct damage, but thats kind of the point of it being different.

I doubt it will ever be the speed run meta, unless they have mechanics that stop people from frontloading dps. But that doesnt mean its intrinsicly bad.

Why ignore armor when the bosses are HP sponges? SW has a few mobs that follow an opposite design that what needs to be more common, all that talk about it’s advantages while power doesn’t have to worry about armor because mobs have negative 9000 toughness.

Umm… the reason condi solos are faster on things like Abom or Lupicus for some professions is because they have higher toughness

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Leo G.4501:

NikeEU.7690:

Leo G.4501:

And yet it tends to be the more controversial aspect of a build.

It’s not controversial at all, among people who take the time to understand the game and character building system. It’s a huge controversy among players who install the game for the first time, dream of playing a clerics tank, and then get their dreams crushed by the reality of the game and the system. How about everyone agree that people who are ignorant should buck up and understand the game instead of dumbing the game down to their level of ignorance?

There are more perspectives than you’re limiting yourself to accepting. Rather than make up 2 camps of thoughts (the “wrong ignorant” side and then “your side”) to dismiss all argument, why not actually engage in discussion? Perhaps you’ll learn something.

If you want people to discuss things with you, drop the ego.
You are far from a great player. That much is clear from your posts.
Accept the criticism of your ideas, instead of ignoring it.
Make the effort to learn why things won’t work.

For example, aegis blocks x% damage scaling with toughness (full toughness major stat to achieve 100% damage reduction):
If I have to load up with toughness, I dont even need to use aegis. The toughness will reduce the damage to trivial. If I don’t need aegis, what use is it?
If it doesn’t stop 100% of a hit, then I’d rather dodge, rendering it useless.
At best you make it a single use protection, again, rendering it obsolete.
Timing an aegis takes knowledge, reflexes.
Knowledge of the boss, what attacks require aegis, what the telegraph is for them. Then reflexes to throw it when its needed, and not get munched (don’t forget, only blocks ONE HIT) by some stray trash mob/add/summon/auto attack.

This is counterplay. You actively use an ability to counteract an enemy ability.
Forcing me to take toughness ( for aegis to be worthwhile over dodging) means I can just pay the attack no mind, and go on bashing my 1 key.

reduced counterplay means reduced learning curve for a fight. It means a fight is easier to learn. It becomes more faceroll 1spam 2 win.

Fact is your suggestion is to make things easier.
Alternatively: we just load up with vigor traits or energy sigils, good players are forced to run slower, and it becomes even harder to learn to play without toughness gear, due to even greater reliance upon dodging, and less help from a guardian. More people get kicked from pugs for failing to dodge attacks. More QQ about getting kicked from group at final bosses. More QQ about not being accepted into meta parties. More QQ about being held back by those reliant on toughness. All this leading to more people leaving the game. If you want gw2 to burn, please do everyone a favor and play another game.

Next problem: What if the attack I use aegis to block has conditions or stun?
Will aegis only function as a damage reduction like protection, or will it reduce the stun/condi durations?

Sure not everyone wants PvE to be about counterplay. But thats how gw2 is. There are plenty of areas ( eg much of the open world) where counter play is very minimal. There are areas where counterplay is much more useful ( eg fractals/ some dungeons).
There are plenty who want MORE counterplay, not less. At least in end-game content.

This has been explained to you several times. You refuse to accept the criticism of your idea.

tl;dr

Perhaps you should stop dismissing others arguments, and attempt to learn something yourself, before you go around calling some of the best PvE-ers in gw2(who incidentally, have spent a lot of time learning and discussing how the game works) out to do the same.

the base aegis can be one block, how much toughness you have can reduce the next attack up to 100% Im sure there are flaws, but this is just rough ideas.

the truth is, its kind of accurate, that the attribute system favors DPS.
What you are kind of saying, is its ok that people get high defense without much investment, but would it be alright for people to get high damage without dps stat investment?

why do dps skills deserve stats that improve it, but defensive skills do not?

to be honest, they should probably either make more attributes effect skills/traits, or they should normalize attributes greatly, so there isnt as much difference between stat sets.
Otherwise there will almost always be too much variation among dps/defense to balance fights so they are actually challenging.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you want people to discuss things with you, drop the ego.
You are far from a great player. That much is clear from your posts.
Accept the criticism of your ideas, instead of ignoring it.
Make the effort to learn why things won’t work.

For example, aegis blocks x% damage scaling with toughness (full toughness major stat to achieve 100% damage reduction):
If I have to load up with toughness, I dont even need to use aegis. The toughness will reduce the damage to trivial. If I don’t need aegis, what use is it?
If it doesn’t stop 100% of a hit, then I’d rather dodge, rendering it useless.
At best you make it a single use protection, again, rendering it obsolete.
Timing an aegis takes knowledge, reflexes.
Knowledge of the boss, what attacks require aegis, what the telegraph is for them. Then reflexes to throw it when its needed, and not get munched (don’t forget, only blocks ONE HIT) by some stray trash mob/add/summon/auto attack.

This is counterplay. You actively use an ability to counteract an enemy ability.
Forcing me to take toughness ( for aegis to be worthwhile over dodging) means I can just pay the attack no mind, and go on bashing my 1 key.

reduced counterplay means reduced learning curve for a fight. It means a fight is easier to learn. It becomes more faceroll 1spam 2 win.

Fact is your suggestion is to make things easier.
Alternatively: we just load up with vigor traits or energy sigils, good players are forced to run slower, and it becomes even harder to learn to play without toughness gear, due to even greater reliance upon dodging, and less help from a guardian. More people get kicked from pugs for failing to dodge attacks. More QQ about getting kicked from group at final bosses. More QQ about not being accepted into meta parties. More QQ about being held back by those reliant on toughness. All this leading to more people leaving the game. If you want gw2 to burn, please do everyone a favor and play another game.

Next problem: What if the attack I use aegis to block has conditions or stun?
Will aegis only function as a damage reduction like protection, or will it reduce the stun/condi durations?

Sure not everyone wants PvE to be about counterplay. But thats how gw2 is. There are plenty of areas ( eg much of the open world) where counter play is very minimal. There are areas where counterplay is much more useful ( eg fractals/ some dungeons).
There are plenty who want MORE counterplay, not less. At least in end-game content.

This has been explained to you several times. You refuse to accept the criticism of your idea.

tl;dr

Perhaps you should stop dismissing others arguments, and attempt to learn something yourself, before you go around calling some of the best PvE-ers in gw2(who incidentally, have spent a lot of time learning and discussing how the game works) out to do the same.

the base aegis can be one block, how much toughness you have can reduce the next attack up to 100% Im sure there are flaws, but this is just rough ideas.

the truth is, its kind of accurate, that the attribute system favors DPS.
What you are kind of saying, is its ok that people get high defense without much investment, but would it be alright for people to get high damage without dps stat investment?

why do dps skills deserve stats that improve it, but defensive skills do not?

to be honest, they should probably either make more attributes effect skills/traits, or they should normalize attributes greatly, so there isnt as much difference between stat sets.
Otherwise there will almost always be too much variation among dps/defense to balance fights so they are actually challenging.

So make aegis work as it does now, but able to work like protection ( only up to 100% mitigation) for a second attack?

So 2-4-1 aegis..?
And this doesn’t sound OP?
My guard is having a wet dream over his clerics armour at that idea.
He gets protection on virtue of courage traited anyway.. Add this idea and it’s still 2-4-1 aegis in full zerk. This would save my bacon more often than I care to admit to.

Active defence has no investment you say?
Then Go play guard for a guild group. Not a pug or Rosta or pugs.
See how easy it is to keep a thief or ele alive when they aren’t secretly in defensive gear or traits. Try staying 100% melee in snowblind boss or archdiviner @ 50 on a zerker ( non selfish traits) guard.
The investment is the hundreds of hours to learn every fight in every dungeon/fractal. Knowing what you can do to help your team, and not just yourself.
And even then, many lesser teams require guard to go clerics gear to take the pressure off them.

Please think about an idea before posting. That way we can have meaningful discussion.

TheDaiBish.9735:

• give the fights mechanics players haven’t played against before.
• make sure that you have to pay attention to the boss mechanics.

This is what needs to happen. I want to see the new Group Content/Raids/Dungeons/Whatever force players out of stacking/auto1. Not sure how, but I’d love to see it.

I was thinking about how new PvE content could work after playing the PvP map Stronghold. Stronghold is breaking up what the normal PvP builds are for Conquest, and I’m loving it. I think there’s a stronger focus on team coordination and strategy here than on conquest, and builds we would never touch in PvP previously are now viable in Stronghold.

In my opinion, I think the new PvE content should work this way as well. The new content needs to force players to pay attention to new boss mechanics, telegraphs, etc. and force players to try other/new builds instead of Zerker. (In current dungeons, running full zerker team builds work because there is very little risk and a very high reward for going this route). One thing I noticed between the new Wyvern Boss battle and every single World Boss Event we have now is that people were actually moving. No stacking, no balling up in a corner or on a ledge. Players actually had to pay attention to where they were and what they were doing, or else be brutally killed by fire.

I also had this feeling after finishing off the final boss in Season 2. It was fairly challenging compared to other content in that season, and I loved it. I had felt I actually accomplished something.

Here’s hoping for challenging group content that breaks the meta.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

So make aegis work as it does now, but able to work like protection ( only up to 100% mitigation) for a second attack?

So 2-4-1 aegis..?
And this doesn’t sound OP?
My guard is having a wet dream over his clerics armour at that idea.
He gets protection on virtue of courage traited anyway.. Add this idea and it’s still 2-4-1 aegis in full zerk. This would save my bacon more often than I care to admit to.

Active defence has no investment you say?
Then Go play guard for a guild group. Not a pug or Rosta or pugs.
See how easy it is to keep a thief or ele alive when they aren’t secretly in defensive gear or traits. Try staying 100% melee in snowblind boss or archdiviner @ 50 on a zerker ( non selfish traits) guard.
The investment is the hundreds of hours to learn every fight in every dungeon/fractal. Knowing what you can do to help your team, and not just yourself.
And even then, many lesser teams require guard to go clerics gear to take the pressure off them.

Please think about an idea before posting. That way we can have meaningful discussion.

Active defense has no STAT investment, aka, if you want to play defensively, stats are largely irrelevant for skilled play. Active DPS however has an extemely large stat investment. No matter how good you are at dps, your effectiveness is greatly reduced without the proper stats.

you should think about ideas, before, and after posting, its impossible to learn if you think you have the answers before evaluating them.

the reality is that attributes effects are biased towards dps.
why is it your stats make your active dps 300% stronger,
but your stats dont make your active def 300% stronger
support?
healing?
control?

and this is an actually a problem for the game, because lets be honest, you dont have to learn every skill to survive, you can burn an enemy/enemies down without them getting a chance to do virtually any damage at all.
you can kill bosses in 20 seconds, and this is primarily because they have to design encounters with the insane range of dmg from lowest dps set, to highest dps set.

and in that 20 seconds, you essentially have the same defenses as any one else.

like i said, really they should just get rid of stats all together, or rework it. I mean fine, you want defensive skills to give same benefit no matter what?, whatever, but then the stat system will never be an accurate representation of risk, because active defensive skills are the actual meat of defense, passive defense is not a major part of high level play.

Thaddeus.4891:

Bubi.7942:

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

You aware that you are saying that to Nike from DnT right? Because if you are saying that, it mean that you should already set a speed run record, but didn’t like it a bit, but if you did that you should know who is Nike, so you probably never set a record speed run. So the guy that never did a record run ask to a guy that did it to do it and see how boring it is?? Now I have a headache.

No, I have no idea who he is, nor do I care. I was not aware that you need to have special rights to reply to someone on the forums. Should I start calling him his highness too or something?

Jesus…

Well. The point I was trying to get through (unsuccessfully it seems), that no one gives a kitten about speed runs or solo runs. You arteficially increasing the difficulty for yourself does not justify dungeons being mind-numbingly easy.

You can do it while doing a headstand and playing with your feet, or just smashng the keyboard with your kittens, but that doesn’t actually make the dungeon challenging. It stays the same old crap.

The only reason why people go full zerk is because dodges are too much OP. Even if your armor is made of paper you can still easily avoid damage.

In my opinion Anet should consider reintroducing the standard armor tanking because if at the beginning they wanted to kill tanking, people actually just started dodge tanking

They should make armor scaling much more efficient in a such way that it is worth it in dungeon to sacrifice DPS and get higher survivability! And then introduce a new dodge mechanic that firstly do not allow invincibility : dodgers should avoid a variable amount of the incoming damage, let’s say a certain % that can change according to some parameters like the timing of the dodge, some conditions etc… and this % also determine how much chance you have to trigger conditions (this is like you try to dodge a blade but maybe the blade can touch you anyway but because of the dodge it’s not a so bad wound and you also get less bleeding stacks). And secondly dodge efficiency should be related to you armor scaling : the less armor you got, the more the dodges will be efficient.

Another problem that I see is that AoE damages shouldn’t be dodgeable. the dodge actually is useful in the way you get out of the area. And this also is the reason why people stack : they don’t care about the fact dodging make them moving arround and avoiding risky situations, they are only interested in the fact they get 1s invincibility even if they are just rolling themselves in the fire.

phys.7689:

passive defense is not a major part of high level play.

Why should it ever be when you have a choice of the two?

One involves you doing nothing, the other requires you to actively manage skills, dodges and utilities in order to survive.

Again, even if you take the view that “ah but, you don’t ever need to dodge because everything is dead before it can hit you!” (which is not the case all the time let’s face it). Then the argument is the same. Passive defense still requires you to do sweet fa, active defense requires the player/group to stack might correctly, unload dps correctly, in the right order and at the right time. i.e. they actually have to do something.

Let’s face it, you can strap on “tanky” gear and run a non glass build and breeze through 99.99999% of the content of this game without breaking a sweat using all the passive facetanking you can take. But people are moaning about the fact that people bothering to run meta builds for the specific content they are doing and buying into active defense are doing said content faster/better then they are? fml That is not aimed at you btw Phys, just the general tone of the thread.

EDIT: It is funny people keep moaning about how op dodges are when going on evidence from in the game itself only about 1% (and that is being generous) of the games playerbase is actually capable of doing it when it matters.

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

passive defense is not a major part of high level play.

Why should it ever be when you have a choice of the two?

One involves you doing nothing, the other requires you to actively manage skills, dodges and utilities in order to survive.

[…] only about 1% (and that is being generous) of the games playerbase is actually capable of doing it when it matters.

Active defence should be more worth it than passive defense ok BUT more risky = you fail you get messed up. And it’s actually too easy to play dodge, obviously and by far.

Play active defense reward you in the way you can spend stats in DPS. And in my opinion, have an active defense that is easy, more tanky and allow big dps is actually poorly measured.

This defense should be harder to access, and both active and passive defense should have their utility in the way you don’t have to obviously go for only 1 copy past wiki setup

Edit : 1% of players can dodge properly? well, I recommend you to go for the Crucible of Eternity and fight against subject alpha. This boss is defeated by 99% of the players doing proper dodges and if you are not full zerk it’s not easy to find a group.

Exun.7825:

Active defence should be more worth it than passive defense ok BUT more risky = you fail you get messed up. And it’s actually too easy to play dodge, obviously and by far.

Play active defense reward you in the way you can spend stats in DPS. And in my opinion, have an active defense that is easy, more tanky and allow big dps is actually poorly measured.

Who is setting the bar as to what constitutes “easy” here?

The truth is the vast majority of players in this game do not find going full glass and using active defense “easy”, at all. This notion that everyone is running around in the game, perfectly timing their dodges, blinds and blocks really has to stop. As does the notion that going full glass dps is somehow “easier” than running more tanky passive specs.

Personally, if you are going to make instanced content more difficult for people to actively mitigate damage in, then you add more instanced content to the game which challenges the meta. New dungeons and fractals. I’m all for that, part of the reason the current content is so “easy” for some is that they have run it hundreds of times before.

You do not though go about nerfing those who buy into actually doing something to survive, whilst promoting passive defensive play which requires no user input or thought.

I do not want to set the bar myself and tell people that what I say is the truth, i’m just watching and what I see is that dodging glass canon strategy is played by the overwhelming majority (In my mind). for me it’s a fact, and I don’t like it. What I would like is more diversity.

At the beginning of the game I was like “oh this boss is harder than few others so I’ll switch on my defensive set to get more block, sustainability and everything” and after couple of weeks I was like “well, I now know how to dodge so now dodging glass canon is the only smart choice” And I’m bored of it. I wish that both strategies had their own utility depending on where you got and who you have to kill. In PvP you sometime have to think about it, in PvE you don’t really.

Another thing is that in people’s mind armor mean passive and dodge mean active. Maybe we can make the armor tanking a bit more active (I don’t have idea right now but It could be a solution).

If we make armor tanking more interesting, even if it’s easier because nothing to actively do, people will still go for dodge strategy if they can handle it, because the higher dps will allow them to finish faster. Time is for me very important, and I think that it also is in the mind of a lot of players.

Exun.7825:

I do not want to set the bar myself and tell people that what I say is the truth, i’m just watching and what I see is that dodging glass canon strategy is played by the overwhelming majority (In my mind). for me it’s a fact, and I don’t like it. What I would like is more diversity. <snip>

Well, I don´t like a lot of things people do in this game either, but do you see me opening a new topic about how much Staff Guardians suck in dungeons every godkitten week?

Why can´t we all accept that different people have different opinions and different preferences (even if you think they are stupid), mind our own business (!), respect each others LFGs and let the devs decide whether or not something needs to be changed in this game huh?

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

passive defense is not a major part of high level play.

Why should it ever be when you have a choice of the two?

One involves you doing nothing, the other requires you to actively manage skills, dodges and utilities in order to survive.

Again, even if you take the view that “ah but, you don’t ever need to dodge because everything is dead before it can hit you!” (which is not the case all the time let’s face it). Then the argument is the same. Passive defense still requires you to do sweet fa, active defense requires the player/group to stack might correctly, unload dps correctly, in the right order and at the right time. i.e. they actually have to do something.

Let’s face it, you can strap on “tanky” gear and run a non glass build and breeze through 99.99999% of the content of this game without breaking a sweat using all the passive facetanking you can take. But people are moaning about the fact that people bothering to run meta builds for the specific content they are doing and buying into active defense are doing said content faster/better then they are? fml That is not aimed at you btw Phys, just the general tone of the thread.

EDIT: It is funny people keep moaning about how op dodges are when going on evidence from in the game itself only about 1% (and that is being generous) of the games playerbase is actually capable of doing it when it matters.

i dont think passive defense should be a major part of high end content.

but i think that stats should effect active defense, just like stats effect active offense.(also active support and active control) and in similar proportions.
if it doesnt work that way, you will end up having the current problem, where a bunch of stats are comparitively useless, and DPS stats are the only stats that matter, for high level play.

at which point I would say having stats is not worth the problems they create with balancing content.

but if 99% of the people on these forums aren’t even going to be taking part in high end play why does it even matter if DPS stats are the best?

maha.7902:

but if 99% of the people on these forums aren’t even going to be taking part in high end play why does it even matter if DPS stats are the best?

because tons of content suffers from the large range in damage.
Thats one of the reasons, for many players fights are too long and boring, because HP has to consider people who are the upper middle class of DPS (not the ultimate speed runners) who can blow stuff up 4 times faster than average players. at the same time they are probably only taking twice as much risk in doing so.

then on the other, pro difference stat side, you realize that stat choice really doesnt matter much. You dont really have good choices. you are basically going to be almost as good at everything except dps no matter what stats you have. And a ton weaker at dps if you dont choose dps stats.

basically stats as they are currently only cause problems, and add very little.

You would not overcome any boss design issues by removing stats from gear so long as build choice, utilities and group synergy remains the primary driver of group dps.

Or are we also suggesting removing build choice now as well?

Have all creatures in the world to take half damage from critical hits. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

Fenrir.3609:

You would not overcome any boss design issues by removing stats from gear so long as build choice, utilities and group synergy remains the primary driver of group dps.

Or are we also suggesting removing build choice now as well?

uhh, actually i think stats has more to do with your DPS than synergy play.
25 stacks of might is 750
fury is 20% crit rate

you get more than 750 from traits and armor/weapon/trinkets
you get more crit rate from taits armor/weapon/trinkets
and you get ferocity from that, which you cant get from synergy

so im pretty sure those stats are more important.

some of those damages are multiplicative, not additive as well, end result is that there is a huge difference in dps between someone with no offense stats, and someone with all offense stats.

and design has to adjust their HP based around that range, and the fight overall, as well as phases (if they have phases)

The problem with removing stats from gear complete is this:
Two possible outcomes:
Good players are crippled to lower dps because they have defensive stats they simply don’t need ( due to being able to use active defences, and their HP never takes a single hit). This drives players away as soon as they become good at it because its too faceroll.

Or it becomes a case of you have to active defend perfectly to even complete the encounter, making it very difficult to get into dungeons or other “endgame” content. This drives new players away very quickly.

Either possibility results in the same: driving players away at one end of the learning curve. Neither makes for a sustainable game.

@ bubi – plenty of people care about speed runs. Plenty of people care about running speedily ( if not record times). Completing things faster is not “artificial difficulty”.
Go get a team together and set a record. Attempt to set a record. Then you can talk as if you have knowledge on the topikittenil then, leave your ego outside the door. To compare setting records to key farming discredits anything you could possibly have to say on the subject. It’s like comparing a water pistol to a military sniper rifle.

What needs to happen is for people to realise how long the learning curve is, and that full zerk is still only used by the minority ( seriously.. fractal 50 lfg: “zerk meta, ping gear or kick” 90% of people who join have soldier/cele gear).

I have no problem with people running that gear. Just need to accept that meta ( or close to meta) and non meta don’t mix well strategically or tactically and go separate ways. Some do, many are abusive when they get kicked.

This is a problem caused by people thinking they are more skilled than they are. Usually because they get carried more than they realise. Some don’t realise they can utilise their class to do much more than they are doing.

- and yeah, we do need harder content to challenge people. Sadly anet is still hung up on “everyone should be able to complete content. The only difference is the time it takes” concept. Not to mention new harder content with greater reward would leave the older, easier( it took us nearly 3 years for dungeons to get “easy”, thats a hell of a long learning curve) content that people should learn first desolate. Something anet wants to avoid.

tl;dr

Drop the egos and be willing to learn and adapt. This applies to some of the vets as well – the ego can be very abrasive. Playing meta doesn’t have to be anti-fun. Learning to overcome something faster, or counterplay a boss more effectively, working out how to help your party-mate is what a multiplayer game is ( or should be) about.

Valento.9852:

Have all creatures in the world to take half damage from critical hits. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

so

you still use the same gear and builds you just do less damage

you realise that damage has been throttled down already and nothing has changed right?

Stats are passive. They only effect passive offence and defence. Making them effect active defence would imbalance the game. You would have to make offensive stats effect offensive buffs to restore balance (more power makes might stronger, precision makes fury stronger etc etc). Which would just make the game overly complex.

Make encounters more challenging and people will see the benefits of passive defensive stats. They are already very balanced in respect to offence. As can be seen in the various no dodge and full nomads videos people have recorded. Its just people naturally prefer to go faster and recieve their rewards faster. So it creates a skewed view that offensive stats are superior. When in fact they arent when you look at it objectively.

maha.7902:

Valento.9852:

Have all creatures in the world to take half damage from critical hits. Problem solved. You’re welcome.

so

you still use the same gear and builds you just do less damage

you realise that damage has been throttled down already and nothing has changed right?

not true.
Its harder to carry PHIW’s and so now they get kicked from meta parties more often.

phys.7689:

uhh, actually i think stats has more to do with your DPS than synergy play.
25 stacks of might is 750
fury is 20% crit rate

you get more than 750 from traits and armor/weapon/trinkets
you get more crit rate from taits armor/weapon/trinkets
and you get ferocity from that, which you cant get from synergy

so im pretty sure those stats are more important.

some of those damages are multiplicative, not additive as well, end result is that there is a huge difference in dps between someone with no offense stats, and someone with all offense stats.

and design has to adjust their HP based around that range, and the fight overall, as well as phases (if they have phases)

Which is why I stated “build choice, utilities and group synergy” and not just “group synergy”. There is no denying gear stats make an impact, but the removal of them certainly would not resolve the issue you seem to see, as far as I am concerned that is.

Removing stats from gear would not remove boss design issues, nor would it appease the majority of the people who come on the forums to cry about “zerkers!!!” because instead they would be crying about build disparity.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ bubi – plenty of people care about speed runs. Plenty of people care about running speedily ( if not record times). Completing things faster is not “artificial difficulty”.
Go get a team together and set a record. Attempt to set a record. Then you can talk as if you have knowledge on the topikittenil then, leave your ego outside the door. To compare setting records to key farming discredits anything you could possibly have to say on the subject. It’s like comparing a water pistol to a military sniper rifle.

I’m still not getting through it seems. I will try to keep this as simple and clear as possible.

Dungeons are not difficult.

Speedrunning is difficult.

Speedrunnig in any game, or in any game aspect is difficult.

Why? Cause you set your own standards which you race against (or others standards).

This doesn’t change the base content in any way.

Thus the argument: “But dungeons are challenging cause speedrunning/soloing is hard” is meaningless. It has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

This was what I was replying to originally.

Example1:
Super Mario Bros is not a hard game. Speedrunning Super Mario Bros is hard. That doesn’t make Super Mario Bros a hard game.

Example2:
You are at a tree climbing contest. You decide that you want to start the contest with your feet in a block of concrete. Then you say: “Man, tree climbing is hard!”

No, it doesn’t work that way.

Edit:
Speedrunning a dungeon is exactly as the same difficulty as speedrunning anything. The difficulty comes from the fact that you are speedrunning, not the content you are doing. Speedrunning a dungeon, is the same as speedrunning a key farm, speedrunning Super Mario Bros or speedrunning to your corner store.

Speedrunning = Speedrunning

Bubi.7942:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

@ bubi – plenty of people care about speed runs. Plenty of people care about running speedily ( if not record times). Completing things faster is not “artificial difficulty”.
Go get a team together and set a record. Attempt to set a record. Then you can talk as if you have knowledge on the topikittenil then, leave your ego outside the door. To compare setting records to key farming discredits anything you could possibly have to say on the subject. It’s like comparing a water pistol to a military sniper rifle.

I’m still not getting through it seems. I will try to keep this as simple and clear as possible.

Dungeons are not difficult.

Speedrunning is difficult.

Speedrunnig in any game, or in any game aspect is difficult.

Why? Cause you set your own standards which you race against (or others standards).

This doesn’t change the base content in any way.

Thus the argument: “But dungeons are challenging cause speedrunning/soloing is hard” is meaningless. It has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

This was what I was replying to originally.

Example1:
Super Mario Bros is not a hard game. Speedrunning Super Mario Bros is hard. That doesn’t make Super Mario Bros a hard game.

Example2:
You are at a tree climbing contest. You decide that you want to start the contest with your feet in a block on concrete. Then you say: “Man, tree climbing is hard!”

No, it doesn’t work that way.

Edit:
Speedrunning a dungeon is exactly as the same difficulty as speedrunning anything. The difficulty comes from the fact that you are speedrunning, not the content you are doing. Speedrunning a dungeon, is the same as speedrunning a key farm, speedrunning Super Mario Bros or speedrunning to your corner store.

Speedrunning = Speedrunning

Again, there is no need for the abrasive ego.

To use your tree climbing analogy:
Climbing the tree faster than the other person may be hard.
Climbing the tree faster than you did yesterday is hard.
If the ONLY goal is climbing the tree, then yes it may well be easy.
But climbing the tree alone will not win you the tree climbing competition.
Saying the tree climbers can’t use a cherry picker to get to the top of the tree is a reasonable restriction to the competition.

Back to the topic: the existing dungeons took 3 years to reach the “ease” we have now. Try taking 4/5 complete noobs and teaching them to run meta. It won’t be easy for them. This is why there is a group asking for there to NOT be harder content. They are struggling with what they have now. I could swear this has been explained before though..

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

uhh, actually i think stats has more to do with your DPS than synergy play.
25 stacks of might is 750
fury is 20% crit rate

you get more than 750 from traits and armor/weapon/trinkets
you get more crit rate from taits armor/weapon/trinkets
and you get ferocity from that, which you cant get from synergy

so im pretty sure those stats are more important.

some of those damages are multiplicative, not additive as well, end result is that there is a huge difference in dps between someone with no offense stats, and someone with all offense stats.

and design has to adjust their HP based around that range, and the fight overall, as well as phases (if they have phases)

Which is why I stated “build choice, utilities and group synergy” and not just “group synergy”. There is no denying gear stats make an impact, but the removal of them certainly would not resolve the issue you seem to see, as far as I am concerned that is.

Removing stats from gear would not remove boss design issues, nor would it appease the majority of the people who come on the forums to cry about “zerkers!!!” because instead they would be crying about build disparity.

boss design issues, even with excellent boss design, you would still have, with the current dps spread, some people beating them in 20 seconds. Lets be honest, no amount of interesting boss design, aside from negating your dmg is going to shine in 20 seconds.

and just to make that fight last 20 seconds, the boss needs so much hp, other people will take forever.

Build diversity is changeable on the fly, with minimal investment, gear is not.

@Arthemis:
And that’s it!

The only goal IS to climb the tree. No one cares if you have a concrete block or not (that is what I meant with no one cares about speedruns), that is YOUR problem for wanting to climb the tree that way.

And meh, I shouldn’t have said it was a contest, cause doing a dungeon isn’t a contest either, my mistake.

Bubi the thing is when people talk about how Dungeon are easy they talk how you can explode a boss in second leaving him no time to attack back and that’s speed run.

So use that fact + the fact that most of us only speed run and you can see how we respond that way. But I get your point and you are right. But I rarely see people arguing that dungeon are easy without using the argument that you can kill a boss in second.

phys.7689:

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

uhh, actually i think stats has more to do with your DPS than synergy play.
25 stacks of might is 750
fury is 20% crit rate

you get more than 750 from traits and armor/weapon/trinkets
you get more crit rate from taits armor/weapon/trinkets
and you get ferocity from that, which you cant get from synergy

so im pretty sure those stats are more important.

some of those damages are multiplicative, not additive as well, end result is that there is a huge difference in dps between someone with no offense stats, and someone with all offense stats.

and design has to adjust their HP based around that range, and the fight overall, as well as phases (if they have phases)

Which is why I stated “build choice, utilities and group synergy” and not just “group synergy”. There is no denying gear stats make an impact, but the removal of them certainly would not resolve the issue you seem to see, as far as I am concerned that is.

Removing stats from gear would not remove boss design issues, nor would it appease the majority of the people who come on the forums to cry about “zerkers!!!” because instead they would be crying about build disparity.

boss design issues, even with excellent boss design, you would still have, with the current dps spread, some people beating them in 20 seconds. Lets be honest, no amount of interesting boss design, aside from negating your dmg is going to shine in 20 seconds.

and just to make that fight last 20 seconds, the boss needs so much hp, other people will take forever.

Build diversity is changeable on the fly, with minimal investment, gear is not.

yup. to make bosses that are significantly long for meta built parties, they would be so long for no meta that they wouldnt bother. Look how many PHIW’s do arah p4 regularly?
That path doesn’t even have particularly challenging bosses, just a lot of them.

Thats the thing though, a lot of people like the short instances. It caters well for limited time, but we can do a string of them when we have lots of time. Casual gamers catered for.

To say there is no need for counterplay ( or strategy/tactics) because a fight takes 20 seconds is naive and ignorant however.
Noting that much of the current content is sub-80 and so is meant partially as a learning curve. I think the " we need more endgame/level 80 dungeons/higher fractals" is becoming the proverbial dead horse now though.

I don’t see any problem with being able to change builds on the fly with little cost.
Gear is expensive, and this is why people don’t want to be forced into having multiple sets. Inventory slots get expensive too. Still not seeing any problem here.

By design –
We can complete content as slowly or quickly as we want.

1) some people are happy if a dungeon takes them 12 hours (I’m serious here) – but they get through it

2) Some people will rage quit if they know somewhere should take < 10 mins and it takes 1 hr. this isnt a speed run – it’s just wanting the average ‘run’ time to be completed.

3) Some people find dungeons too hard – and cant get there heads around them – and want it easier so it doesnt take them 12 hours and they can complete the content in a more reasonable time.

when you’ve run the same content 100 times – you’re probably want to get it done reasonably quickly so you can go do something else later.

spoj.9672:

Stats are passive. They only effect passive offence and defence. Making them effect active defence would imbalance the game. You would have to make offensive stats effect offensive buffs to restore balance (more power makes might stronger, precision makes fury stronger etc etc). Which would just make the game overly complex.

Make encounters more challenging and people will see the benefits of passive defensive stats. They are already very balanced in respect to offence. As can be seen in the various no dodge and full nomads videos people have recorded. Its just people naturally prefer to go faster and recieve their rewards faster. So it creates a skewed view that offensive stats are superior. When in fact they arent when you look at it objectively.

dps stats do not increase passive offense, there is no such thing as passive offense in this game (that would be auto attack) Dps stats make offensive skills, that you press, when you want to press them, do more damage. Defense stats do not effect defensive skills, and make them more effective when you press them.

offensive stats are superior, because active defense is more effective than passive defense.
+1400 toughness reduces dmg recieved by like 35-40% HOWEVER this only comes into play after dodges, blinds, aegis, blocks, invulnerables, and positioning, all of which are totally uneffected by stats.
1400 power 700precision and 700 ferocity increase damage by much more than 40% and every direct damage skill will benefit.

They passively increase the damage you deal. Just like defensive stats passively decrease the damage you take. Or are you going to pick on that and say because you cant attack passively they arent passive stats?

Offensive stats do nothing to individual skills. They simply increase your base damage. Which happens to be used whenever doing damage. Shocking I know. They do not increase the damage coefficients of skills. Those are constant.

Active defence is only superior for skilled players. For everyone else passive defence is a godsend. And with better content that will be emphasized further. This is an active combat game. One of the best things about it is the ability to completely avoid damage with active defence. If you dont like it thats tough. Accept that this is what anet wanted or go play another game.

@Thaddeus:
Hm…

I have noticed this in previous posts, and I may get the wrong impression but I can’t help but feel that speedrunners think that non-speedrunners want to nerf zerker cause they are jelous of their super fast times, and want to also do that?

I dunno about others, but I’m sure I don’t. If that’s what floats others boat, let them do it. I do not care if my team beats a boss under 5 mins, while a speedrunner team does it under 30 secs.

The gripe I have is that zerker stat is way forgiving, the damage boost you get from it is not on par with the risk you take up by wearing it. It doesn’t become a glass cannon, just a cannon.

And I blame easy dungeons and cheese player tactics for that.

Edit: Wow, hot topic, got 4 ninja responses.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you want people to discuss things with you, drop the ego.
You are far from a great player. That much is clear from your posts.
Accept the criticism of your ideas, instead of ignoring it.
Make the effort to learn why things won’t work.

I’d say it works both ways. Drop the ego and it’s easier to get your point across to others. Even if you feel you deserve your ego, humbleness is a great social trait.

As for my own skill, I don’t pretend I’m a great player but I’m certainly not a noob nor am I someone unfamiliar with speed clears (not record runs, but PuG zerk dungeon runs aimed at speed).

And as far as accepting criticism, I can and do. But often, on these forums, criticism is scarce and often accompanied by insults and accusations.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

For example, aegis blocks x% damage scaling with toughness (full toughness major stat to achieve 100% damage reduction):
If I have to load up with toughness, I dont even need to use aegis. The toughness will reduce the damage to trivial. If I don’t need aegis, what use is it?

Well the premise of your criticism is a bit confused. Only ‘Block’ (to clarify, that is the blocking skills/utilities) scales with toughness. Benevolence (the substitute for Healing Power) scales Aegis.

I’ve considered the point about the use of blocking if you have toughness. That’s why I mentioned toughness’ passive damage reduction not being quite so high but then it also sort of goes with the weapons too. A toughness build character will have to survive more of the enemy’s attacks longer so active use of defensive weapons with blocking abilities would be enhanced.

The premise behind making Bv help aegis is aegis is a boon and usually mean to assist. You’d have enhanced performance through many other boon types as well not to mention you yourself likely will need the advantage of better boons if your build focuses on that and not personal damage (speaking in terms of my idea, btw, not current game mechanics).

If it doesn’t stop 100% of a hit, then I’d rather dodge, rendering it useless.
At best you make it a single use protection, again, rendering it obsolete.
Timing an aegis takes knowledge, reflexes.
Knowledge of the boss, what attacks require aegis, what the telegraph is for them. Then reflexes to throw it when its needed, and not get munched (don’t forget, only blocks ONE HIT) by some stray trash mob/add/summon/auto attack.

Don’t forget ping.

But the same would be in my change. It would be a skill/reflex gameplay feature of a support/boon/healing type character…but if you simply want to use clutch aegis, I don’t see a problem with such which is why I mentioned you wouldn’t need Bv(or Healing Power, if we must so say) as a major stat for it, just some to improve the chance it will block the 1st hit. You’d have a slight tangent to the build to facilitate that use of the boon.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Next problem: What if the attack I use aegis to block has conditions or stun?
Will aegis only function as a damage reduction like protection, or will it reduce the stun/condi durations?

It will nullify the other effects except the damage (which will get reduced/blocked) for the boon’s duration (after taking an attack).

Artemis Thuras.8795:

This has been explained to you several times. You refuse to accept the criticism of your idea.

Why are you making accusations? No one has criticised my idea (barring the quoted posts) nor have I refused to accept people’s comments about my ideas.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Perhaps you should stop dismissing others arguments, and attempt to learn something yourself, before you go around calling some of the best PvE-ers in gw2(who incidentally, have spent a lot of time learning and discussing how the game works) out to do the same.

I called Nike out on civil discussion, not learning how to play the game. You know, some people might think they’re hot kitten when it comes to video games but lack social graces to discuss things like adults. I’m not saying that’s what I’m accusing Nike of, just that if you’re basing my attitude off of the post of mine you quoted, the old saying “you reap what you sow” and “attitude begets attitude” and all that jazz fits here.

Dungeons are easy? How long did Arah path 1 take you when you did it the first time after launch? Was it easy then?

Dungeons/Raids/Ect in any game are essentially puzzles. Each dungeon asks questions. “Do you have projectile reflects?” “Did you bring enough CC or Immobolize?” “Do your team have enough DPS?” “Do you have stealth?”

It takes a lot of time for players to even understand the questions they are being asked. It takes a lot of time for players to bring adequate answers. It takes even more time to refine the answers into perfected solutions. It takes even more time for players to to decided what is overkill, where you can skimp on answers. And more time yet figuring out how to get value by bringing answers that solve multiple questions, allowing the freed up space to dedicate to more DPS.

This is a constant evolution from the second people begin playing the content. It took a lot of time to get to this point. And again, it’s only easy because players like us put in the time to solve all the puzzles, answer all the questions and package the answers in a neat box for the community to adapt into the pug zeitgeist.

Still think I’m wrong? Take 5 new players who leveled to 80 in open world. Let them use any build or gear they want without telling them what the meta is. Make them do arah p1. If it takes less than 2 hours I would be absolutely shocked. I wouldn’t even be surprised if they rage quit from the difficulty.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

uhh, actually i think stats has more to do with your DPS than synergy play.
25 stacks of might is 750
fury is 20% crit rate

you get more than 750 from traits and armor/weapon/trinkets
you get more crit rate from taits armor/weapon/trinkets
and you get ferocity from that, which you cant get from synergy

so im pretty sure those stats are more important.

some of those damages are multiplicative, not additive as well, end result is that there is a huge difference in dps between someone with no offense stats, and someone with all offense stats.

and design has to adjust their HP based around that range, and the fight overall, as well as phases (if they have phases)

Which is why I stated “build choice, utilities and group synergy” and not just “group synergy”. There is no denying gear stats make an impact, but the removal of them certainly would not resolve the issue you seem to see, as far as I am concerned that is.

Removing stats from gear would not remove boss design issues, nor would it appease the majority of the people who come on the forums to cry about “zerkers!!!” because instead they would be crying about build disparity.

boss design issues, even with excellent boss design, you would still have, with the current dps spread, some people beating them in 20 seconds. Lets be honest, no amount of interesting boss design, aside from negating your dmg is going to shine in 20 seconds.

and just to make that fight last 20 seconds, the boss needs so much hp, other people will take forever.

Build diversity is changeable on the fly, with minimal investment, gear is not.

yup. to make bosses that are significantly long for meta built parties, they would be so long for no meta that they wouldnt bother. Look how many PHIW’s do arah p4 regularly?
That path doesn’t even have particularly challenging bosses, just a lot of them.

Thats the thing though, a lot of people like the short instances. It caters well for limited time, but we can do a string of them when we have lots of time. Casual gamers catered for.

To say there is no need for counterplay ( or strategy/tactics) because a fight takes 20 seconds is naive and ignorant however.
Noting that much of the current content is sub-80 and so is meant partially as a learning curve. I think the " we need more endgame/level 80 dungeons/higher fractals" is becoming the proverbial dead horse now though.

I don’t see any problem with being able to change builds on the fly with little cost.
Gear is expensive, and this is why people don’t want to be forced into having multiple sets. Inventory slots get expensive too. Still not seeing any problem here.

counterplay requires your opponent to be able to do something to you.

If a fight lasts 20 seconds, and an opponent attacks once every 4 seconds, you can negate everything he can throw at you with 3 dodges and 2 aegis, which you can generate in 20 seconds fairly easily, heck you can even eat an attack or 2 in that time if you have protect.

lets be honest, defensively such a fight is far from deep, or even requiring counterplay.

phys.7689:

dps stats do not increase passive offense, there is no such thing as passive offense in this game (that would be auto attack) Dps stats make offensive skills, that you press, when you want to press them, do more damage. Defense stats do not effect defensive skills, and make them more effective when you press them.

We don’t see it that way.

Stats passively improve you offense and defense. That I use GS with my zerker gear or my soldier gear won’t change how I play with my GS.

My rotation, my weapons swap and my utility skill will change actively how I do DPS, but offensive stats will passively make them do better damage.

Leo – We’ve seen these arguments / proposals before from you and counter-argued them in previous posts and not just on this thread.

Nike is one friendly guy – you’re anology to people who think they are hot kitten when it comes to playing video games buy lacking social graces/discuss things like adults is an anology too far and a major insult to many players in general.

Bubi.7942:

@Thaddeus:
Hm…

I have noticed this in previous posts, and I may get the wrong impression but I can’t help but feel that speedrunners think that non-speedrunners want to nerf zerker cause they are jelous of their super fast times, and want to also do that?

I dunno about others, but I’m sure I don’t. If that’s what floats others boat, let them do it. I do not care if my team beats a boss under 5 mins, while a speedrunner team does it under 30 secs.

The gripe I have is that zerker stat is way forgiving, the damage boost you get from it is not on par with the risk you take up by wearing it. It doesn’t become a glass cannon, just a cannon.

And I blame easy dungeons and cheese player tactics for that.

Edit: Wow, hot topic, got 4 ninja responses.

By your own words:
The problem lies in the design of enemies & content.
This is something many of us are in agreement on.

Zerker only seems forgiving because many have spent 3 years mastering the current content and know every boss’ attack and can counterplay them perfectly. One false move and a zerker will go splat. At least in some content. Some content ( like AC) is meant to be completed by lesser( experienced) players who haven’t learnt every telegraph, attack, and active defence yet.

This is just natural progression: vets want tougher content. Noobs still need easier content to learn the ropes. Anet has to keep the easier content populated so noobs don’t think its a ghost town until you reach end-game skill level.

If you truly believe the "live-and-let-live philosophy regarding two camps of thought ( complete fast, vs just complete) then why the hell are you even arguing? get on and enjoy the game. Just don’t get mad if I kick you from my group because our goals don’t align.

Leo G.4501:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you want people to discuss things with you, drop the ego.
You are far from a great player. That much is clear from your posts.
Accept the criticism of your ideas, instead of ignoring it.
Make the effort to learn why things won’t work.

I’d say it works both ways. Drop the ego and it’s easier to get your point across to others. Even if you feel you deserve your ego, humbleness is a great social trait.

As for my own skill, I don’t pretend I’m a great player but I’m certainly not a noob nor am I someone unfamiliar with speed clears (not record runs, but PuG zerk dungeon runs aimed at speed).

And as far as accepting criticism, I can and do. But often, on these forums, criticism is scarce and often accompanied by insults and accusations.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

For example, aegis blocks x% damage scaling with toughness (full toughness major stat to achieve 100% damage reduction):
If I have to load up with toughness, I dont even need to use aegis. The toughness will reduce the damage to trivial. If I don’t need aegis, what use is it?

Well the premise of your criticism is a bit confused. Only ‘Block’ (to clarify, that is the blocking skills/utilities) scales with toughness. Benevolence (the substitute for Healing Power) scales Aegis.

I’ve considered the point about the use of blocking if you have toughness. That’s why I mentioned toughness’ passive damage reduction not being quite so high but then it also sort of goes with the weapons too. A toughness build character will have to survive more of the enemy’s attacks longer so active use of defensive weapons with blocking abilities would be enhanced.

The premise behind making Bv help aegis is aegis is a boon and usually mean to assist. You’d have enhanced performance through many other boon types as well not to mention you yourself likely will need the advantage of better boons if your build focuses on that and not personal damage (speaking in terms of my idea, btw, not current game mechanics).

If it doesn’t stop 100% of a hit, then I’d rather dodge, rendering it useless.
At best you make it a single use protection, again, rendering it obsolete.
Timing an aegis takes knowledge, reflexes.
Knowledge of the boss, what attacks require aegis, what the telegraph is for them. Then reflexes to throw it when its needed, and not get munched (don’t forget, only blocks ONE HIT) by some stray trash mob/add/summon/auto attack.

Don’t forget ping.

But the same would be in my change. It would be a skill/reflex gameplay feature of a support/boon/healing type character…but if you simply want to use clutch aegis, I don’t see a problem with such which is why I mentioned you wouldn’t need Bv(or Healing Power, if we must so say) as a major stat for it, just some to improve the chance it will block the 1st hit. You’d have a slight tangent to the build to facilitate that use of the boon.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Next problem: What if the attack I use aegis to block has conditions or stun?
Will aegis only function as a damage reduction like protection, or will it reduce the stun/condi durations?

It will nullify the other effects except the damage (which will get reduced/blocked) for the boon’s duration (after taking an attack).

Artemis Thuras.8795:

This has been explained to you several times. You refuse to accept the criticism of your idea.

Why are you making accusations? No one has criticised my idea (barring the quoted posts) nor have I refused to accept people’s comments about my ideas.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Perhaps you should stop dismissing others arguments, and attempt to learn something yourself, before you go around calling some of the best PvE-ers in gw2(who incidentally, have spent a lot of time learning and discussing how the game works) out to do the same.

I called Nike out on civil discussion, not learning how to play the game. You know, some people might think they’re hot kitten when it comes to video games but lack social graces to discuss things like adults. I’m not saying that’s what I’m accusing Nike of, just that if you’re basing my attitude off of the post of mine you quoted, the old saying “you reap what you sow” and “attitude begets attitude” and all that jazz fits here.

Ok..
That suggestion again without a huge confusing wall of text?

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Fenrir.3609:

phys.7689:

uhh, actually i think stats has more to do with your DPS than synergy play.
25 stacks of might is 750
fury is 20% crit rate

you get more than 750 from traits and armor/weapon/trinkets
you get more crit rate from taits armor/weapon/trinkets
and you get ferocity from that, which you cant get from synergy

so im pretty sure those stats are more important.

some of those damages are multiplicative, not additive as well, end result is that there is a huge difference in dps between someone with no offense stats, and someone with all offense stats.

and design has to adjust their HP based around that range, and the fight overall, as well as phases (if they have phases)

Which is why I stated “build choice, utilities and group synergy” and not just “group synergy”. There is no denying gear stats make an impact, but the removal of them certainly would not resolve the issue you seem to see, as far as I am concerned that is.

Removing stats from gear would not remove boss design issues, nor would it appease the majority of the people who come on the forums to cry about “zerkers!!!” because instead they would be crying about build disparity.

boss design issues, even with excellent boss design, you would still have, with the current dps spread, some people beating them in 20 seconds. Lets be honest, no amount of interesting boss design, aside from negating your dmg is going to shine in 20 seconds.

and just to make that fight last 20 seconds, the boss needs so much hp, other people will take forever.

Build diversity is changeable on the fly, with minimal investment, gear is not.

yup. to make bosses that are significantly long for meta built parties, they would be so long for no meta that they wouldnt bother. Look how many PHIW’s do arah p4 regularly?
That path doesn’t even have particularly challenging bosses, just a lot of them.

Thats the thing though, a lot of people like the short instances. It caters well for limited time, but we can do a string of them when we have lots of time. Casual gamers catered for.

To say there is no need for counterplay ( or strategy/tactics) because a fight takes 20 seconds is naive and ignorant however.
Noting that much of the current content is sub-80 and so is meant partially as a learning curve. I think the " we need more endgame/level 80 dungeons/higher fractals" is becoming the proverbial dead horse now though.

I don’t see any problem with being able to change builds on the fly with little cost.
Gear is expensive, and this is why people don’t want to be forced into having multiple sets. Inventory slots get expensive too. Still not seeing any problem here.

counterplay requires your opponent to be able to do something to you.

If a fight lasts 20 seconds, and an opponent attacks once every 4 seconds, you can negate everything he can throw at you with 3 dodges and 2 aegis, which you can generate in 20 seconds fairly easily, heck you can even eat an attack or 2 in that time if you have protect.

lets be honest, defensively such a fight is far from deep, or even requiring counterplay.

So 3 dodges and 2 aegis that have to be correctly timed isn’t counterplay?

Back to this saying: please think before posting.

TPMN.1483:

when you’ve run the same content 100 times – you’re probably want to get it done reasonably quickly so you can go do something else later.

That’s where I am at. If it is going to take longer than 45-60 minutes count me out… So, everybody in my party better be running zerk and know the content or I’ll find another party…. I say that but sometimes I like increasing my personal difficulty with Wild Turkey 101 lol

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you truly believe the "live-and-let-live philosophy regarding two camps of thought ( complete fast, vs just complete) then why the hell are you even arguing? get on and enjoy the game. Just don’t get mad if I kick you from my group because our goals don’t align.

I really hope you won’t do that, cause on rare occasions I actually do dungeons, I do it solo/duo. So don’t kick me from my group please.

Jokes aside, it’s great that we are getting somewhere.

It seems the difference lies in 2 things now:

- IMO you don’t go splat aside from a very bosses/situations (like 2% of the encounters) in dungeons
- it’s not only the dungeon experience that made dungeons “easy”. It’s also:
1. Better and more powerful traits than at the start,
2. Ascended gear, and easier access to exotic than ever,
3. General open world experience is more engaging and challenging now than before

phys.7689:

boss design issues, even with excellent boss design, you would still have, with the current dps spread, some people beating them in 20 seconds. Lets be honest, no amount of interesting boss design, aside from negating your dmg is going to shine in 20 seconds.

and just to make that fight last 20 seconds, the boss needs so much hp, other people will take forever.

Build diversity is changeable on the fly, with minimal investment, gear is not.

Min/maxers do change build and gear dependant upon the content, that’s the point, gear which (outside of the remit of ascended) is dirt cheap btw.

Regardless, the spread in kill time would still be there, for the reasons I mentioned before. Perhaps not as large (undeniably so), but large enough for a) the same design issues to remain and b) the same people who moan about zerkers on the forums instead simply moaning about build disparity instead.

If anything it is nomad/cleric gear and defensive builds which can trivialise most of the content in this game btw.

phys.7689:

counterplay requires your opponent to be able to do something to you.

If a fight lasts 20 seconds, and an opponent attacks once every 4 seconds, you can negate everything he can throw at you with 3 dodges and 2 aegis, which you can generate in 20 seconds fairly easily, heck you can even eat an attack or 2 in that time if you have protect.

lets be honest, defensively such a fight is far from deep, or even requiring counterplay.

You are partially right. The emphasis in such fight is usually more about the offensive strategy. You need to stack might fast (hopefully before the boss is ready), you need to give fury, put your banner down, get the boss to 25 stack of vulnerability, etc, etc.

Yes some fight make that super easy. Super fight like in CoF or AC end boss are brain dead whatever you do, they are just so easy. But you also have a lot of interesting fight where trying to burst the boss down will make you in a difficult situation.

Let take some exemple. The Spider Queen in AC need some reflect and a fast Deep Freeze to make the burst. Otherwise the little spider will kill your group or the Queen will immobilize you in her poison. The end boss of HotW path 1 will need you to manage his defiant because you want to deep freeze him back to back. Lupi will be able to do around 10 attacks before you take him down with several of them being one-kill. Archdiviner will last long enough while you need to stay in melee range.

spoj.9672:

They passively increase the damage you deal. Just like defensive stats passively decrease the damage you take. Or are you going to pick on that and say because you cant attack passively they arent passive stats?

Offensive stats do nothing to individual skills. They simply increase your base damage. Which happens to be used whenever doing damage. Shocking I know. They do not increase the damage coefficients of skills. Those are constant.

Active defence is only superior for skilled players. For everyone else passive defence is a godsend. And with better content that will be emphasized further. This is an active combat game. One of the best things about it is the ability to completely avoid damage with active defence. If you dont like it thats tough. Accept that this is what anet wanted or go play another game.

no, even for unskilled players active defense is far superior.

you can give all of your major stats to toughness, so you take 40% less damage, against an enemy swinging once every 4 seconds, 5 attacks in 20 seconds
or you can give nothing to toughness and dodge, and you take 40% less damage by only taking 3 attacks. if you use vigor? well you can take 80% less damage.

active defense is always superior to passive defense, the advantage to passive defense is when you run out of active defense, or mess up.

And to say it once again, i have no problem with active defense at all, i think that active defense should be the main way in which you deal with enemy attacks. However, IF you want to have a stat system, it should represent a real choice, and real descions. Most stats do not represent actual useful descions. People who dont know this assume they will actually matter, and are shocked to find out they are relatively worthless.

So either, make stats actually be a descion, that effects how you actively play the game, or get rid of the false choices that lead to poor encounter design.
Or keep the status quo, and have people forever complaining about stats that dont matter, and HPbag bosses for average parties, and lack of challenge for elite parties.

as for the passive offense, no, its not passive, you have to choose an attack, and press the button to gain anything from a DPS stat, that is the opposite of passive. Those stats effect the damage of your skills, defense stats do not effect the defense provided by your skills.

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

counterplay requires your opponent to be able to do something to you.

If a fight lasts 20 seconds, and an opponent attacks once every 4 seconds, you can negate everything he can throw at you with 3 dodges and 2 aegis, which you can generate in 20 seconds fairly easily, heck you can even eat an attack or 2 in that time if you have protect.

lets be honest, defensively such a fight is far from deep, or even requiring counterplay.

You are partially right. The emphasis in such fight is usually more about the offensive strategy. You need to stack might fast (hopefully before the boss is ready), you need to give fury, put your banner down, get the boss to 25 stack of vulnerability, etc, etc.

Yes some fight make that super easy. Super fight like in CoF or AC end boss are brain dead whatever you do, they are just so easy. But you also have a lot of interesting fight where trying to burst the boss down will make you in a difficult situation.

Let take some exemple. The Spider Queen in AC need some reflect and a fast Deep Freeze to make the burst. Otherwise the little spider will kill your group or the Queen will immobilize you in her poison. The end boss of HotW path 1 will need you to manage his defiant because you want to deep freeze him back to back. Lupi will be able to do around 10 attacks before you take him down with several of them being one-kill. Archdiviner will last long enough while you need to stay in melee range.

which is fine strategy, but it is not really much counterplay. It definately takes coordination and a sound strategy to burn something in 20 seconds, but counterplay? not so much

Bubi.7942:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

If you truly believe the "live-and-let-live philosophy regarding two camps of thought ( complete fast, vs just complete) then why the hell are you even arguing? get on and enjoy the game. Just don’t get mad if I kick you from my group because our goals don’t align.

I really hope you won’t do that, cause on rare occasions I actually do dungeons, I do it solo/duo. So don’t kick me from my group please.

Jokes aside, it’s great that we are getting somewhere.

It seems the difference lies in 2 things now:

- IMO you don’t go splat aside from a very bosses/situations (like 2% of the encounters) in dungeons
- it’s not only the dungeon experience that made dungeons “easy”. It’s also:
1. Better and more powerful traits than at the start,
2. Ascended gear, and easier access to exotic than ever,
3. General open world experience is more engaging and challenging now than before

if one doesn’t know what they are doing, it is significantly more than 2% of encounters that can cause you to splat.
Even ac spider queen will wipe an inexperienced zerker party. So again this comes down to how much experience each party member has.

Things like scaling have made dungeons a lot easier. Sadly this is needed. Look at all the QQ over some of the LS2 bosses?
Frankly I wish people would learn to read their dang skills/traits! It would fix a decent chunk of problems people have.

There is indeed a slight increase in difficulty of content in open world, but its mostly reliant upon others still, so many don’t realise they need to step up their game.

I think the point we want anet to take from this is:
Keep the existing dungeons.
Add new ones which are harder and more rewarding.
At the very least add a few more ( at the same difficulty as arah) so we can keep things a little more fresh.
Again.. DEAD HORSE.

I agree with the fact that some active defenses should be affected by stats, or at least I think that it is a problem that they are not. You have active defense like dodges available and at full capacity whatever the build you are playing and it make other defensive alternatives useless since wasting stats on it will only affect a little part of your overall defense. In addition if you play it well it is also more powerful.

About the “well played, active defense is better” : well, in PvE the enemies are no brain and scripted, all you have to do is to push a key at the right moment and oh, you just cancelled 100% of the incoming damage during a sec. You can do it twice in a row, when you don’t have it then you have to wait like few sec and it’s up… seriously even if you are not good at it, it is already effective. (I would have a different opinion about PvP but we are not talking about PvP here).

Skoigoth.9238:

Exun.7825:

I do not want to set the bar myself and tell people that what I say is the truth, i’m just watching and what I see is that dodging glass canon strategy is played by the overwhelming majority (In my mind). for me it’s a fact, and I don’t like it. What I would like is more diversity. <snip>

Well, I don´t like a lot of things people do in this game either, but do you see me opening a new topic about how much Staff Guardians suck in dungeons every godkitten week?

Why can´t we all accept that different people have different opinions and different preferences (even if you think they are stupid), mind our own business (!), respect each others LFGs and let the devs decide whether or not something needs to be changed in this game huh?

Ok so because I give my own opinion does it necessary mean that I don’t respect other’s opinions? I actually don’t agree with that, but please, take it easy, no offence.