Guild Wars 2

thrag.9740:

Should I have to “play pve” to unlock my traits in dungeons? Open world pve is boring after the first time or two. Right now, I can unlock all traits/skills playing dungeons. Or do dungeons not count too?

Dungeons are not a separate game mode, they are just instanced PVE in this game, sorry(Except for fractals, but thats elite pve to most people). I do love me some dungeons, but they count as PVE too.

so why shouldn’t they unlock traits?

Dante.1763:

thrag.9740:

ugh, im a pve exclusive player pretty much? I have 1 of every class so I can step in and do any possible dungeon/fractal role my team needs.

This is bigger than just lost gold/sp. This is about a large design philosophy shift. Previously, players could play however they wanted to earn gold and skill points. They could then use that to buy traits/skills. Now players are forced to do open world pve to become better at other game modes. So do you just prefer everyone is forced to play game modes they don’t enjoy? I prefer the “play how you want” philosophy.

PVP is not affected at all, so they dont count, and they should have to play their character in PVE to use stuff in PVE. If they want to PVP then they can PVP with everything fully unlocked already.

WVW IS PVE. Anet has stated that many times, and so yes it makes sense to them that they want you to play both.

Now i agree that WVW should have at least enough hero challenges in WVW to get all 65 HP and unlock everything(That they have now). But after that, they will have to step foot in PVE to get more HP. My opinion of course, and im sure it wont be popular. I too am a pve exclusive player and all my characters, all 12 of them have at least 40 Skill points by the time they get to 80. The exception to that is my engineer, who i leveled via skill tomes. So someday ill run her through to get those 65 HP, someday.

I disagree. While Anet intended WvW to be a PvE game mode. WvW has taken on a life of its own. Having its own politics, its own community, its own 3rdparty forums, its own internally managed competitions that you cant find anywhere else in game, and its own salty attitude.

As a matter of fact, most WvW people are looking for a release from the strictly PvE players that ruin WvW server populations.

Iason Evan.3806:

The best solution is this:

• Allow players a way to turn skill point scrolls into Hero Points

• Players that don’t want to do this don’t have to and therefore can take part in this new progression system

• Players that don’t want to have to go earn stuff they have already earned can use their skill points for hero points

This would allow everyone to play the game how they want to play it.

this is the type of non solution that creates systemic problems.

Are these players that you are talking about never going to get any elite specializations ever? because the core of the hero point system change isnt just about old skills, its about creating a method for growing the game progression in the future.

you also realize that most of those scrolls that were given were created mostly with its end game uses in mind? not base progression. They have out so many skill points, not so people could ignore skill challenge progression, but so they could get eldritch scrolls, turn t5 mats to to t6 mats, etc.

what you are suggesting is creating a super class within the system, which doesnt play by the systems rules.
It would be better to create a short term solution that uses the new systems base mechanics.

a less destructive idea would be to automatically unlock 65 specific challenges if they are not unlocked on every charachter who is currently completely unlocked.

the biggest problem with that solution would be, auto completing world completion, and how it would unfairly award progress that players never earned.
that and implementation may be rough

however, as for the purity of the new system as a whole, these old charachters wouldnt be special cases that could create problems in the future.

nightblood.7910:

Dante.1763:

thrag.9740:

ugh, im a pve exclusive player pretty much? I have 1 of every class so I can step in and do any possible dungeon/fractal role my team needs.

This is bigger than just lost gold/sp. This is about a large design philosophy shift. Previously, players could play however they wanted to earn gold and skill points. They could then use that to buy traits/skills. Now players are forced to do open world pve to become better at other game modes. So do you just prefer everyone is forced to play game modes they don’t enjoy? I prefer the “play how you want” philosophy.

PVP is not affected at all, so they dont count, and they should have to play their character in PVE to use stuff in PVE. If they want to PVP then they can PVP with everything fully unlocked already.

WVW IS PVE. Anet has stated that many times, and so yes it makes sense to them that they want you to play both.

Now i agree that WVW should have at least enough hero challenges in WVW to get all 65 HP and unlock everything(That they have now). But after that, they will have to step foot in PVE to get more HP. My opinion of course, and im sure it wont be popular. I too am a pve exclusive player and all my characters, all 12 of them have at least 40 Skill points by the time they get to 80. The exception to that is my engineer, who i leveled via skill tomes. So someday ill run her through to get those 65 HP, someday.

I disagree. While Anet intended WvW to be a PvE game mode. WvW has taken on a life of its own. Having its own politics, its own community, its own 3rdparty forums, its own internally managed competitions that you cant find anywhere else in game, and its own salty attitude.

As a matter of fact, most WvW people are looking for a release from the strictly PvE players that ruin WvW server populations.

every facet of the game fits that same description.

they have City based RP communities who could say the same thing.

nightblood.7910:

I disagree. While Anet intended WvW to be a PvE game mode. WvW has taken on a life of its own. Having its own politics, its own community, its own 3rdparty forums, its own internally managed competitions that you cant find anywhere else in game, and its own salty attitude.

As a matter of fact, most WvW people are looking for a release from the strictly PvE players that ruin WvW server populations.

Cant say i blame them I remember how badly we PVE players wanted to not have to explore WVW. But at the moment Anet sees WVW as a PVE zone. I would love to see it become its own entirely separate game mode with its own unique rewards, and separate progression. Which is why i said give them at least 65 HP.

PorceleinEve.2973:

How about just make hero challenges same as mastery points. One character does it, they’ve all done it. There problem solved. And while you’re at it, make wps account wide also. That way the second time you go for the world completion you’ll only have to do vistas and pois. Less grindy and boring, very alt friendly, and you still get the experience of the world the first time. You don’t need it a second time imo.

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

how is running around do skill challenges more “play that profession” than dungeons,fractals,pvp,wvw?

Seriously, pvp and instanced pve is where the combat system actually matters. Are people going to be keeping blinds on a skill challenge fight? are they going to strip defiance and cc it? No they are just gonna spam dps. Skill challenges are not where you learn to play a character really.

Coulter.2315:

Iason Evan.3806:

The best solution is this:

• Allow players a way to turn skill point scrolls into Hero Points

• Players that don’t want to do this don’t have to and therefore can take part in this new progression system

• Players that don’t want to have to go earn stuff they have already earned can use their skill points for hero points

This would allow everyone to play the game how they want to play it.

The new system is not optional xD Its the foundation of the whole specialisation progression.

And that is precisely why there are players that don’t agree with it. There are tons of us that want the progression to be as open-ended as possible. That’s the heart of this game to me. I used to be able to ask:

“How do I want to earn progress today out of the myriad options I have for earning progress in this awesome game?”
“PvP?” “WvW?” “Event Chains?” “Hearts?” “Dungeons?” “Personal Story?” “Living World Content?”

Where are the options with the new system? Where’s the Guild Wars Twosy-ness in this progression? It’s being replaced by Mastery System gating and Hero Point gating. It’s watering down creativity in the traits. See that boss over there? You don’t have enough mastery points to kill it yet. Better go grind out some mastery points so you can actually do the thing you want to do.

You know what I say to that noise?

No thanks.

thrag.9740:

how is running around do skill challenges more “play that profession” than dungeons,fractals,pvp,wvw?

Seriously, pvp and instanced pve is where the combat system actually matters. Are people going to be keeping blinds on a skill challenge fight? are they going to strip defiance and cc it? No they are just gonna spam dps. Skill challenges are not where you learn to play a character really.

its play the charachter at basic level, the things you talk about are high end things that you should really already have those skills unlocked before you do seriously.

notice i said figuratively.
The idea is this is you are building your charachter, so the challenges are low level, this is the basic experience for low level charachter growth.

Iason Evan.3806:

Coulter.2315:

Iason Evan.3806:

The best solution is this:

• Allow players a way to turn skill point scrolls into Hero Points

• Players that don’t want to do this don’t have to and therefore can take part in this new progression system

• Players that don’t want to have to go earn stuff they have already earned can use their skill points for hero points

This would allow everyone to play the game how they want to play it.

The new system is not optional xD Its the foundation of the whole specialisation progression.

And that is precisely why there are players that don’t agree with it. There are tons of us that want the progression to be as open-ended as possible. That’s the heart of this game to me. I used to be able to ask:

“How do I want to earn progress today out of the myriad options I have for earning progress in this awesome game?”
“PvP?” “WvW?” “Event Chains?” “Hearts?” “Dungeons?” “Personal Story?” “Living World Content?”

Where are the options with the new system? Where’s the Guild Wars Twosy-ness in this progression? It’s being replaced by Mastery System gating and Hero Point gating. It’s watering down creativity in the traits. See that boss over there? You don’t have enough mastery points to kill it yet. Better go grind out some mastery points so you can actually do the thing you want to do.

You know what I say to that noise?

No thanks.

hero points is once per charachter.

mastery points are as open ended as getting experience, other than having to be in one zone, but that makes sense because its zone specific progression.
you wont be using mushrooms in WvW or a core zone.

now i dont like the simplistic need X to beat this boss type mechanics they added, or the 100000000 exp thing, but it is very much just play in this zone and get progress

phys.7689:

Knighthonor.4061:

Grandfather=465 hero points with all skills unlocked if you had all your skills. The rest of the hero challenges can be done until reach max number of hero challenge points allowed.

max hero challenges – 465 = total number of hero challenges a grandfathered character can do before rest of hero challenges lock up.

there is no max number of hero challenge points.

its there is only so many sources in the game that give hero points. Thats a very important difference.

also there are not more than 465 hero challenges. you get 400 hero points from leveling your charachter to 80.

Somebody in another post said their are 220 hero challenges in the game. So 400(from levels)
Would be
400+220== 620 total hero points.

465 hero points to unlock all skills and traits.
So that would be
620-465== 155 Hero challenges left to do for max hero points.

Grandfathering this way can simply be done by granting 465 hero points to each character with all skills and traits.

Allow them to do 155 of the 220 hero challenges, and the last 65 hero challenges would be locked.

Simple solution to such a flawed design…

Its interesting that I see so many PvE players saying things like “Well you should have to play that character first before opening the abilities.” In other words, in your minds you have some idea that progression is tied to PvE only and valid in PvE only.

Ive already been told I did nothing to level my toons from gaining mass amounts of skill scrolls in WvW and Tomes in PvP.

Sorry there are other game modes here and I can tell you right now, you bring your dungeon running skills to WvW roaming and youre getting wrecked.

I think most of the PvP competitive players, (I consider both WvW and PvP as PvP modes as well they really are Player Vs Player modes) are most that are screaming about this.

And the argument of “Well PvP gets all the skills unlocked.” Well I use the same thief in WvW as I do in PvP. And actually run different builds in each.

I dont even comprehend the need for WvW players to have to do anything in PvE for elite specializations.

People keep saying you will need +-65 points, nah actually its 220 points if you want all options on your toons opened. The +-65 gets you to core speclializations.

Thats 220 Hero Challenges times 9 or 10? Really?

Ive said it many times, unless they make these maps impossible to just walk through (If its a map within your level) unless you have a group of people with you and bring back some of the challenge that gw1 PvE offered, I have no interest what so ever.

The creativity is nice and on point, but they left behind all the good stuff of gw1 PvE.

So I have no interest there and dont want to have to do it just to ge the functionality of my toon in the game modes of choice, including WvW.

I wouldnt mind so much if they took a chapter from WvW and said that every hero point you open you open it on all toons. Just like the WvW ranks.

Then Ill do it once and never do it again. They can level gate access to those skills as well, wouldnt bother me as I still have stacks of tomes.

phys.7689:

thrag.9740:

how is running around do skill challenges more “play that profession” than dungeons,fractals,pvp,wvw?

Seriously, pvp and instanced pve is where the combat system actually matters. Are people going to be keeping blinds on a skill challenge fight? are they going to strip defiance and cc it? No they are just gonna spam dps. Skill challenges are not where you learn to play a character really.

its play the charachter at basic level, the things you talk about are high end things that you should really already have those skills unlocked before you do seriously.

notice i said figuratively.
The idea is this is you are building your charachter, so the challenges are low level, this is the basic experience for low level charachter growth.

Explorable dungeons start at level 35

phys.7689:

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

I thought the point of all the changes that’s been happening till now (mastery points common to all, skill point scrolls, tomes of knowledge, ability to switch characters in a dungeon, common wallet for all etc etc) was to move towards a more unified system that’s independent of character. You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression. And if I want to get good at a profession, i’ll play it on my own. I don’t need a baby sitter to force me to run around communing with places of power to become a better player. I’ll do it like folks who run dungeons, and wvw and pvp do it.

This is a poorly thought out system that punishes folks for alting when all this time the game has been encouraging alting. And it sends to the players mixed signals. I mean, is this game a casual friendly approach things as you see fit experience or are we moving away into a more “focused” and “hardcore” experience now. Are we to expect separate wallets to become a thing in the future too? They really need to decide and let us know. Are we getting more choice or less in the future? Is this a thing now? (the questions are rhetorical for the one person who’s gonna interpret them as literal questions and answers, you’re welcome).

If pve players have to spend time doing boring stuff to unlock abilities so should everyone in every aspect of the game. WvW should need to do similarly tedious, monotonous WvW stuff to unlock abilities and sPvP should do similarly tedious, monotonous stuff to unlock abilities. The ‘hurr durr instant lvl 80 with all skillz unlock is lazy you newb’ argument doesn’t hold water when that’s exactly what you get in sPvP. Because you know what? How the hell can you learn how to play your character without having all the abilities to use? And this is against other players here-not simple mobs. We should let everyone in pvp gain one level per 3 matches up to 80 and drip feed them their skill and traits because they need time to learn their class. Yeah that sound completely mental doesn’t it….

PvP players want team battles and the options to counter the other team, so give them that. WvW players want large scale battles and roaming or w/e you people call it, which requires all the options so you can adapt to the situation so give them that. PvE players want to work with each other and explore the game world and experiment with how we can interact with this world, which requires options…so why don’t we get this again? Progression for pve would be better served as ways to interact with the game world imo (I realize some ppl like shallow item based progression but I while I respect your preference I fundamentally reject the notion that I should pay for a game to be excluded from items in that game based on insane time requirements or luck or both….that’s bullkitten)-I was particularly interested in the mastery system for gliding as that’s something cool I would want to do. Of course as we all know, doing something when it’s your choice or something you’re interested doesn’t leave a bad taste in your mouth. I say give people the abilities they need to play your characters and for pve at least have progression be tied to discovery/exploration of the game world. I mean whereas I don’t won’t run into any real problems with the specializations as I have at least 70sp on each toon, the fact that so many people don’t have 60 shows that this isn’t what they find engaging-it’s not fun. If given the option they’d rather just get to 80 and start doing things they find fun or at the very least worthwhile with respect to time invested. So I’d think the logical thing to do is stop trying to get people to do things they don’t want to do and focus on creating avenues of gameplay that they actually want to engage in.

In essence: quit padding the game and focus on creating fulfilling repeatable content.

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

I thought the point of all the changes that’s been happening till now (mastery points common to all, skill point scrolls, tomes of knowledge, ability to switch characters in a dungeon, common wallet for all etc etc) was to move towards a more unified system that’s independent of character. You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression. And if I want to get good at a profession, i’ll play it on my own. I don’t need a baby sitter to force me to run around communing with places of power to become a better player. I’ll do it like folks who run dungeons, and wvw and pvp do it.

This is a poorly thought out system that punishes folks for alting when all this time the game has been encouraging alting. And it sends to the players mixed signals. I mean, is this game a casual friendly approach things as you see fit experience or are we moving away into a more “focused” and “hardcore” experience now. Are we to expect separate wallets to become a thing in the future too? They really need to decide and let us know. Are we getting more choice or less in the future? Is this a thing now? (the questions are rhetorical for the one person who’s gonna interpret them as literal questions and answers, you’re welcome).

skill challenges are not hardcore content. Making doing skill challenges out to be some sort of anti casual mechanic is very disengenous.

and just the main reason that progression exists in games is by and large as an incentive to play the game.

the reason they dont start you at the last boss in castlevania is because playing through the first few levels is part of the game design.

Do you really think that it is a good idea that you get a max level, fully unlocked revenant without ever touching the class at all? Does that really make the game a better game? Do you think the game is better off if you can completely ignore 95% of the content?

Would the game as a whole be better off if you could just hit a button and start as a max level fully unlocked charachter?

Heres the truth as i see it, a good game has limits, it has design, and it has intention. I cant run with the ball in basketball. you may have to beat 10 people before you win a tournament, you have to run 26 miles to complete a marathon. There are rules to any game, and generally they exist to make the game better.

if you dont like a charachter/proffession enough to do fairly simple tasks on that charachter in order to unlock extra functionalities/abilities then you dont really like the game that much.
If getting up an walking to the park is not worth the enjoyment of being at the park then you didnt really want to go to the park.

What exactly is “alting” to you? where i was from, playing an alt was about replaying the game as another class/proffesion/charachter for a different perspective/playstyle. Is alting now something where you instantly create a max stat proffession based on your time playing a different charachter? Alting is essentially about skipping the entire game on new charachters?

And this whole idea of punishing alting is stupid, the new system is actually easier on alts than what the game launched with, its also easier BY FAR than the second system they instituted. The only system by which alts were easier to max unlock was taking a grandfathered charachter from the first system, and giving it the plethora of tomes/skill scrolls that evolved with the second system and due to balancing endgame skill point requirements for legendaries and other special skins.

phys.7689:

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

I thought the point of all the changes that’s been happening till now (mastery points common to all, skill point scrolls, tomes of knowledge, ability to switch characters in a dungeon, common wallet for all etc etc) was to move towards a more unified system that’s independent of character. You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression. And if I want to get good at a profession, i’ll play it on my own. I don’t need a baby sitter to force me to run around communing with places of power to become a better player. I’ll do it like folks who run dungeons, and wvw and pvp do it.

This is a poorly thought out system that punishes folks for alting when all this time the game has been encouraging alting. And it sends to the players mixed signals. I mean, is this game a casual friendly approach things as you see fit experience or are we moving away into a more “focused” and “hardcore” experience now. Are we to expect separate wallets to become a thing in the future too? They really need to decide and let us know. Are we getting more choice or less in the future? Is this a thing now? (the questions are rhetorical for the one person who’s gonna interpret them as literal questions and answers, you’re welcome).

skill challenges are not hardcore content. Making doing skill challenges out to be some sort of anti casual mechanic is very disengenous.

and just the main reason that progression exists in games is by and large as an incentive to play the game.

the reason they dont start you at the last boss in castlevania is because playing through the first few levels is part of the game design.

Do you really think that it is a good idea that you get a max level, fully unlocked revenant without ever touching the class at all? Does that really make the game a better game? Do you think the game is better off if you can completely ignore 95% of the content?

Would the game as a whole be better off if you could just hit a button and start as a max level fully unlocked charachter?

Heres the truth as i see it, a good game has limits, it has design, and it has intention. I cant run with the ball in basketball. you may have to beat 10 people before you win a tournament, you have to run 26 miles to complete a marathon. There are rules to any game, and generally they exist to make the game better.

if you dont like a charachter/proffession enough to do fairly simple tasks on that charachter in order to unlock extra functionalities/abilities then you dont really like the game that much.
If getting up an walking to the park is not worth the enjoyment of being at the park then you didnt really want to go to the park.

We already get full level full unlocked character in SPvP and sometimes you are forced to play against players far more skilled required than anything in the whole game. So i no longer back that argument. If SPvP players can figure out a class without leveling it, anybody can. I will instantly level my revenant and doesnt seem difficult compared to what we currently have in Ele and kit engineer. …

Knighthonor.4061:

phys.7689:

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

I thought the point of all the changes that’s been happening till now (mastery points common to all, skill point scrolls, tomes of knowledge, ability to switch characters in a dungeon, common wallet for all etc etc) was to move towards a more unified system that’s independent of character. You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression. And if I want to get good at a profession, i’ll play it on my own. I don’t need a baby sitter to force me to run around communing with places of power to become a better player. I’ll do it like folks who run dungeons, and wvw and pvp do it.

This is a poorly thought out system that punishes folks for alting when all this time the game has been encouraging alting. And it sends to the players mixed signals. I mean, is this game a casual friendly approach things as you see fit experience or are we moving away into a more “focused” and “hardcore” experience now. Are we to expect separate wallets to become a thing in the future too? They really need to decide and let us know. Are we getting more choice or less in the future? Is this a thing now? (the questions are rhetorical for the one person who’s gonna interpret them as literal questions and answers, you’re welcome).

skill challenges are not hardcore content. Making doing skill challenges out to be some sort of anti casual mechanic is very disengenous.

and just the main reason that progression exists in games is by and large as an incentive to play the game.

the reason they dont start you at the last boss in castlevania is because playing through the first few levels is part of the game design.

Do you really think that it is a good idea that you get a max level, fully unlocked revenant without ever touching the class at all? Does that really make the game a better game? Do you think the game is better off if you can completely ignore 95% of the content?

Would the game as a whole be better off if you could just hit a button and start as a max level fully unlocked charachter?

Heres the truth as i see it, a good game has limits, it has design, and it has intention. I cant run with the ball in basketball. you may have to beat 10 people before you win a tournament, you have to run 26 miles to complete a marathon. There are rules to any game, and generally they exist to make the game better.

if you dont like a charachter/proffession enough to do fairly simple tasks on that charachter in order to unlock extra functionalities/abilities then you dont really like the game that much.
If getting up an walking to the park is not worth the enjoyment of being at the park then you didnt really want to go to the park.

We already get full level full unlocked character in SPvP and sometimes you are forced to play against players far more skilled required than anything in the whole game. So i no longer back that argument. If SPvP players can figure out a class without leveling it, anybody can. I will instantly level my revenant and doesnt seem difficult compared to what we currently have in Ele and kit engineer. …

its not about figuring out the game
its about experiencing the game.

the whole point of PVE is to go around througout the game world doing different stuff to make your charachter stronger in various ways.

Doing skill challenges means you will be running around, throughout the world interacting with the PVE world, you will be figuring out how to get into that centaur camp, distracting that champion, Seeing the Balthazar temple. If you are not willing to this very small task in order to get MORE skills/traits than you need for any build, why do you want a fully unlocked revenant anyhow?

So what does skill challenges mattering allow anet to do? it allows them to give you a concrete reward for playing through the different areas of the game. It allows them to expose you to some minimal part of the world you are playing in. It allows them to incentivize the RPG element of the game.

If the WvW playing population really wants auto unlocked charachters and a less progression/resource/time focused WvW then seperate the modes, but it is for the best that something like skill challenges exist for pve.

Knighthonor.4061:

phys.7689:

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

I thought the point of all the changes that’s been happening till now (mastery points common to all, skill point scrolls, tomes of knowledge, ability to switch characters in a dungeon, common wallet for all etc etc) was to move towards a more unified system that’s independent of character. You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression. And if I want to get good at a profession, i’ll play it on my own. I don’t need a baby sitter to force me to run around communing with places of power to become a better player. I’ll do it like folks who run dungeons, and wvw and pvp do it.

This is a poorly thought out system that punishes folks for alting when all this time the game has been encouraging alting. And it sends to the players mixed signals. I mean, is this game a casual friendly approach things as you see fit experience or are we moving away into a more “focused” and “hardcore” experience now. Are we to expect separate wallets to become a thing in the future too? They really need to decide and let us know. Are we getting more choice or less in the future? Is this a thing now? (the questions are rhetorical for the one person who’s gonna interpret them as literal questions and answers, you’re welcome).

skill challenges are not hardcore content. Making doing skill challenges out to be some sort of anti casual mechanic is very disengenous.

and just the main reason that progression exists in games is by and large as an incentive to play the game.

the reason they dont start you at the last boss in castlevania is because playing through the first few levels is part of the game design.

Do you really think that it is a good idea that you get a max level, fully unlocked revenant without ever touching the class at all? Does that really make the game a better game? Do you think the game is better off if you can completely ignore 95% of the content?

Would the game as a whole be better off if you could just hit a button and start as a max level fully unlocked charachter?

Heres the truth as i see it, a good game has limits, it has design, and it has intention. I cant run with the ball in basketball. you may have to beat 10 people before you win a tournament, you have to run 26 miles to complete a marathon. There are rules to any game, and generally they exist to make the game better.

if you dont like a charachter/proffession enough to do fairly simple tasks on that charachter in order to unlock extra functionalities/abilities then you dont really like the game that much.
If getting up an walking to the park is not worth the enjoyment of being at the park then you didnt really want to go to the park.

We already get full level full unlocked character in SPvP and sometimes you are forced to play against players far more skilled required than anything in the whole game. So i no longer back that argument. If SPvP players can figure out a class without leveling it, anybody can. I will instantly level my revenant and doesnt seem difficult compared to what we currently have in Ele and kit engineer. …

let me put it another way.
would the megaman series have been better games if you could start the game with every bosses powers auto unlocked?

(in case you havent played megaman the premise of the game is that you get to use the bosses powers after you beat them)

i thought the point of pve was fun? I don’t think many players consider this fun, at the very least i think we can agree doing it 9 times would be pretty grindy. I want to experience all the classes. Doing skill challenges is not experiencing them. Its blocking them.

phys.7689:

Knighthonor.4061:

phys.7689:

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

skill challenges are currently the only charachter specific growth left in the game. I dont think its a coincidence that they want that to be the thing on which each proffessions growth is ultimately based on past a basic level.

You want to get good at a proffesion(figuratively, this is a simulation)? you have to play that proffesion.
at least for a few hours.

there is boss rush mode in castlevania for a reason…. same with Ninja Gaiden….

I thought the point of all the changes that’s been happening till now (mastery points common to all, skill point scrolls, tomes of knowledge, ability to switch characters in a dungeon, common wallet for all etc etc) was to move towards a more unified system that’s independent of character. You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression. And if I want to get good at a profession, i’ll play it on my own. I don’t need a baby sitter to force me to run around communing with places of power to become a better player. I’ll do it like folks who run dungeons, and wvw and pvp do it.

This is a poorly thought out system that punishes folks for alting when all this time the game has been encouraging alting. And it sends to the players mixed signals. I mean, is this game a casual friendly approach things as you see fit experience or are we moving away into a more “focused” and “hardcore” experience now. Are we to expect separate wallets to become a thing in the future too? They really need to decide and let us know. Are we getting more choice or less in the future? Is this a thing now? (the questions are rhetorical for the one person who’s gonna interpret them as literal questions and answers, you’re welcome).

skill challenges are not hardcore content. Making doing skill challenges out to be some sort of anti casual mechanic is very disengenous.

and just the main reason that progression exists in games is by and large as an incentive to play the game.

the reason they dont start you at the last boss in castlevania is because playing through the first few levels is part of the game design.

Do you really think that it is a good idea that you get a max level, fully unlocked revenant without ever touching the class at all? Does that really make the game a better game? Do you think the game is better off if you can completely ignore 95% of the content?

Would the game as a whole be better off if you could just hit a button and start as a max level fully unlocked charachter?

Heres the truth as i see it, a good game has limits, it has design, and it has intention. I cant run with the ball in basketball. you may have to beat 10 people before you win a tournament, you have to run 26 miles to complete a marathon. There are rules to any game, and generally they exist to make the game better.

if you dont like a charachter/proffession enough to do fairly simple tasks on that charachter in order to unlock extra functionalities/abilities then you dont really like the game that much.
If getting up an walking to the park is not worth the enjoyment of being at the park then you didnt really want to go to the park.

We already get full level full unlocked character in SPvP and sometimes you are forced to play against players far more skilled required than anything in the whole game. So i no longer back that argument. If SPvP players can figure out a class without leveling it, anybody can. I will instantly level my revenant and doesnt seem difficult compared to what we currently have in Ele and kit engineer. …

let me put it another way.
would the megaman series have been better games if you could start the game with every bosses powers auto unlocked?

(in case you havent played megaman the premise of the game is that you get to use the bosses powers after you beat them)

phys.7689:

Gibson.4036:

phys.7689:

Based in that, I doubt they would make it account wide.
its actually really alt friendly compared to almost any other game

GW2 the MMORPG for those who hate that’s not quite as bad as other MMORPGs.

so what you are saying, is you really think its a good idea that you never have to play a charachter/proffession at all, and can full unlock all its abilities? You really think that is a winning strategy for PVE?

What I was saying is that a lot of the things that were going to make this different than other MMORPGs got modified to be only not as bad as other MMORPGs. Around launch there was a lot of defending of the game with “GW2 is different than other MMORPGs”. It seems like over the years it has become more common to see it defended with “Other MMORPGs are way worse!”

Personally, I don’t have a problem with unlocking new stuff (Revenant progression, Elite specializations) by doing skill hero challenges. Then again, I’m not one of the WvW-only crowd originally promised complete character progression without leaving WvW.

I do, however, have a problem with ArenaNet revamping the game in such a way that it required me to go out and re-earn unlocks I already had.

Gibson.4036:

phys.7689:

Gibson.4036:

phys.7689:

Based in that, I doubt they would make it account wide.
its actually really alt friendly compared to almost any other game

GW2 the MMORPG for those who hate that’s not quite as bad as other MMORPGs.

so what you are saying, is you really think its a good idea that you never have to play a charachter/proffession at all, and can full unlock all its abilities? You really think that is a winning strategy for PVE?

What I was saying is that a lot of the things that were going to make this different than other MMORPGs got modified to be only not as bad as other MMORPGs. Around launch there was a lot of defending of the game with “GW2 is different than other MMORPGs”. It seems like over the years it has become more common to see it defended with “Other MMORPGs are way worse!”

Personally, I don’t have a problem with unlocking new stuff (Revenant progression, Elite specializations) by doing skill hero challenges. Then again, I’m not one of the WvW-only crowd originally promised complete character progression without leaving WvW.

I do, however, have a problem with ArenaNet revamping the game in such a way that it required me to go out and re-earn unlocks I already had.

im not opposed to grandfathering, as long as it works well within the system, Im at this point more responding to the people who are saying that havin to play a charachter for a few hours to reach max progression is a bad idea.

As far as the WvW only players, they were promised they could go from 1-80 in wvw, not that they could achieve everything the game has to offer in WvW alone. Getting your last skill unlocks through WvW alone on release would take you about an additional 30 hours per charachter. Most early WvW people just went to pve and got some fast skill points if they wanted more options. They actually generally spent more time in PVE for gold purposes for new gear sets/runes/looks rather than for skills. They didnt really develop WvW as a closed system, it was always supposed to be a part of the whole, sure you could level 1-80 there, but you can also level 1-80 in kryta.

thrag.9740:

i thought the point of pve was fun? I don’t think many players consider this fun, at the very least i think we can agree doing it 9 times would be pretty grindy. I want to experience all the classes. Doing skill challenges is not experiencing them. Its blocking them.

the point of pve is fun, but only if you enjoy pve.
If you just want to experience the classes, play spvp.
If you want to experience adventuring in the game world with those classes, part of that experience is game world progression.

you know how they keep saying that they want the game to focus on the journey? thats why they want you to want to earn at least some part of your charachters development by experiencing the game world.

essentially they want pve to be about going on adventures and becoming stronger, thats what the skill point progression system they are instituting is about, and they are trying to build a system that expands with that as a basis.

When they release new specializations? you will get them by going on new adventures (probably combined with some old adventures) If you have no desire to do that, why do you want a pve charachter with full unlocks?

Now WvW may have evolved into something else, but they can deal with that within the overall system.

there are some people who just like shooting the ball, but if thats all basketball was, it would be an inferior game for many more people

phys.7689:

im not opposed to grandfathering, as long as it works well within the system, Im at this point more responding to the people who are saying that havin to play a charachter for a few hours to reach max progression is a bad idea.

really? a strawman? nobody said that having to play a character a few hours to reach max progression is a bad idea. everybody is saying that being forced to play all 8 alts for a few hours to REGAIN stuff we already had is a bad idea. everybody is saying that we’re not experiencing the content cause we’ve done it already, some of us multiple times. We’ve seen it, there’s nothing to be gained. NOTHING. Only time lost, gold lost and a huge sense of grind. That screams of bad design. I get it you like it. Allow others to not. And at the very least understand that not everyone plays like you. And don’t use strawman again. It points to a person whose intellectual honesty is low.

I DO want to go on new adventures. But doing the same skill challenges NINE times is not NEW.

Coulter.2315:

Baldrick.8967:

Another massive shove from Anet to try and pigeonhole players into playing one or if your lucky, two toons.

I have around 30 level 80 toons, probably use ten of them on a fairly regular basis.

So that’s between 650 and 1950 times I need to hunt around pve maps doing stuff I don’t want to do to unlock build variance on my characters and have a chance at making either my existing build or a new one (as many builds are killed off by the new trait system/wvw changes).

Not to mention probably needing different armor sets on quite a few of them.

I’m glad this isn’t a grindy Korean MMO, I’d hate to see what they did then….

The more I read of this expansion the less enthusiastic I am about it. But I’ll probably still buy it, for whenever I come back to the game more regularly.

You over extended yourself, Anet can’t restrict systems dependent on people who have 30 characters. Complaining you need to do a lot of things because you chose to create so much for yourself to do is kinda silly.

Also worth noting AGAIN, you will have access to 400/465 on EACH of those characters – you wil be able to make a few builds on each no problem.

Yes, a few, non-optional builds that don’t suit my play style.

Maybe if they had brought over something simple like templates over from Guild Wars (you know, the game it shares a name with, not much else), then it would have been easier.

But yeah, I’ll just go with the ‘spam 1, zerk ftw’ crowd’ and not bother thinking any more, as it seems to be discouraged by the way things are going.

It’s blindingly obvious the system is being brought in without a care for those who just want to wvw (without having to be kitten, looks like ‘repeat the same XXXX pve XXXX 30 times). Pvp , the blessed spvp ’e-sport’ won’t be affected, and pve’rs generally just run one toon called ‘zerk’ (or are rapidly being pushed that way) so they will experience all the new shiny content once and be done.

I’ll probably flip a coin and decide on a single toon to play, get bored with it after a week or two, then decide whether it’s worth playing any more and having to repeat the same boring pve to get that toon ready for what I actually want to play (wvw), or just go play a different game. Either way Anet won’t care, as I’ll have paid at least one amount of expansion fee.

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

im not opposed to grandfathering, as long as it works well within the system, Im at this point more responding to the people who are saying that havin to play a charachter for a few hours to reach max progression is a bad idea.

really? a strawman? nobody said that having to play a character a few hours to reach max progression is a bad idea. everybody is saying that being forced to play all 8 alts for a few hours to REGAIN stuff we already had is a bad idea. everybody is saying that we’re not experiencing the content cause we’ve done it already, some of us multiple times. We’ve seen it, there’s nothing to be gained. NOTHING. Only time lost, gold lost and a huge sense of grind. That screams of bad design. I get it you like it. Allow others to not. And at the very least understand that not everyone plays like you. And don’t use strawman again. It points to a person whose intellectual honesty is low.

actually you specifically were saying you think the system should be moving away from charachter progression. So if its a straw man, its the straw man you constructed.

You -the player- progress, not the character you’re playing. So i don’t see any point in individual character progression.

and you havent done that content with that proffession.

thrag.9740:

I DO want to go on new adventures. But doing the same skill challenges NINE times is not NEW.

Should i be able to see every charachter ending in street fighter because i beat the game with ryu?

the whole point of these different proffesions is the play and feel different, even if you are doing the same content. They have different skills/synergies/traits/limitations/strengths. This is why adding new classes/proffessions/jobs is seen as a major addition to the game, because the same content is different.
As someone who has leveled every proffession at least once, i will tell you these classes play fairly differently by an large, and handle the same content in different ways.

the way i fight an underwater largo on my theif, is not the same way i fight an underwater largo on my mesmer.

On my engineer soloing a hero challenge that has a champion babysitting it was doing smoke field invisible blast finisher chain for 3 invisible stacks

on my ranger it was actually soloing the champion via battle with swapping pets.

for my theif hitting a bunch of points faster was about using movement skills and teleports with dodges and steals on white creatures for swiftness, for my engineer it was about coming up with a trait set up that allowed me swiftness at all times for kit swapping combined with speed shoes and rocket boots jumps.

this experience of doing the same challenges is different depending on which class you are doing and how its built.

your right picking up a skewer of meat on my warrior is so thrillingly different than on my gaurdian. Oh joy.

Anet have done their mind, and they will do these changes no matter we talk in here. We are just a bunch of customers who don’t like this change, we are not happy with it. So only thing what we can do, is what’s customers right. We can always vote with our legs.

I have kind of done that already. I am doing only log-in-wars and get my log-in reward and that’s it. I am not going to buy HoT. I have found better and more rewarding game at this moment. And I have realise that learning new game is even fun.

Yes, I had long term plans to GW2, but sometimes those plans are futile. And after all, this is only a game, not a whole life Game should be entertainment and if I am not feeling it anymore for entertaining, it is better look new game or activities what gives me entertaining again.

So if you are not satisfied this game and changes what will come, just move to another game. Or do something else what you like. You can always come back if you miss it.

thrag.9740:

your right picking up a skewer of meat on my warrior is so thrillingly different than on my gaurdian. Oh joy.

so dont do that skill challenge. You realize you dont have to do every skill challenge in the game to unlock specializations right?

you realize there will be all new skill challenges in the Hot area, as well as skill challenges in WvW.

well i agree with your sentiment, me and some close friends have been playing old back logged games lately like borderlands 2, saints row, etc.

But I think if this thread gets enough posts Anet may notice it. It is already the largest thread in this forum that I can see.

phys.7689:

thrag.9740:

your right picking up a skewer of meat on my warrior is so thrillingly different than on my gaurdian. Oh joy.

so dont do that skill challenge. You realize you dont have to do every skill challenge in the game to unlock specializations right?

How am i suppose to know which skill challenges are which when I run towards them on my map?

Look, whether you like open pve or not, I think we can both agree, before there were a large variety of ways to progress, and now there appear to be a lot less. So, do you like the removal of choice?

thrag.9740:

phys.7689:

thrag.9740:

your right picking up a skewer of meat on my warrior is so thrillingly different than on my gaurdian. Oh joy.

so dont do that skill challenge. You realize you dont have to do every skill challenge in the game to unlock specializations right?

How am i suppose to know which skill challenges are which when I run towards them on my map?

Look, whether you like open pve or not, I think we can both agree, before there were a large variety of ways to progress, and now there appear to be a lot less. So, do you like the removal of choice?

i prefer the removal of choice when that choice creates inflation and a non scalable system.

the reason the new skills used to cost 25 skill points? just because over glut of skill points. The reason they designed a trait system that would require 360 skill points if you didnt want to do the events? over glut.
A system where its more effecient to enter farm mode on my old charachter to level my new charachter? bad design.

you know how much it will cost to unlock all traits on your charachter in the new system? no gold, less skill points than it used to cost than at the start of the game to unlock just skills in order to unlock both skills AND traits

leveling 1-80 used to get you about 60% of the skill points to unlock all skills

leveling 1-80 now will get you 80% of skills and traits

I wont even compare it to the current trait system, because thats not even a contest in terms of grind.

its system is actually a smaller grind than either other system. It gives skill points a purpose, and sets up a scalable expandable system for proffesion expansion based on going out and going on adventures.

Could it be improved? yes
should they come up with some sort of grandfathering system? yes
is it better than either system that came before it? yes

Gibson.4036:

Personally, I don’t have a problem with unlocking new stuff (Revenant progression, Elite specializations) by doing skill hero challenges. Then again, I’m not one of the WvW-only crowd originally promised complete character progression without leaving WvW.

I do, however, have a problem with ArenaNet revamping the game in such a way that it required me to go out and re-earn unlocks I already had.

x10000000!!!! I can’t say it any better.

The old system allowed you the choice. If you made the decision to level new characters through old characters, that was your choice. You could play how you wanted, I could play how I wanted. Now we all have to play how you want.

wow can’t wait to do boring skill challenges on all of my 9 geared 80s. love wasting my time and being bored. love repeating tasks to get traits I used to have back. love unlocking skills twice. love fighting brainless AI on 80s and pressing F. love walking through the same map that I walked through in beta almost 3 years ago. so much fun.

remember when traits used to free? remember the last revamp when everyone with everything unlocked got to keep their progression? yeah well I do. can’t say I would be thrilled to have all of my progress wiped.

thrag.9740:

The old system allowed you the choice. If you made the decision to level new characters through old characters, that was your choice. You could play how you wanted, I could play how I wanted. Now we all have to play how you want.

yeah, accept making it play how you wanted created 25 skill point heals, and traits that needed 360 skill points to unlock traits. And made the dev team want to develop a new system before adding new traits/skills.
So yes, no matter what some one is going to be affected.

choovanski.5462:

wow can’t wait to do boring skill challenges on all of my 9 geared 80s. love wasting my time and being bored. love repeating tasks to get traits I used to have back. love unlocking skills twice. love fighting brainless AI on 80s and pressing F. love walking through the same map that I walked through in beta almost 3 years ago. so much fun.

remember when traits used to free? remember the last revamp when everyone with everything unlocked got to keep their progression? yeah well I do. can’t say I would be thrilled to have all of my progress wiped.

you mean when traits costed the equivalent of 3 hours of gold farming? and it took more skill challenges to unlock your skills than it will now take to unlock your skills and traits?
or you mean when they grandfathered old level 1 charachters who never earned anything into the new system, while new players had to go crazy doing trials or spending 360 skill points to get their traits and another 150 to get their skills?

dont conflate wanting to be grandfathered with a superior system, neither of the old systems was any less grindy.

Who cares if you use to need 25 skill points for heal skills? You could earn them playing how you want. If your enjoying yourself, its not much of a grind.

3 hours of gold farming? come on, the most expensive trait is only 3 g. I consistently pug cof1 in 8 mins. ac p123 in 45 mins total. Hell, ever arah runs are commonly 20-30 minutes.

Oh i know what the problem is. I’m clearly doing that content incorrectly because I never “learned to play” my profession by doing skill challenges.

On consideration of this argument, I have to confess I can see two sides to the issue. On one hand, I have to wonder if it was a mistake for ANet to make it too easy to level up and max out a character’s non-gear capabilities in GW2. On the other hand, I also have to wonder if it’s a mistake for ANet to continue to try to eke more mileage out of three-year-old content.

There’s also the issue of new players or new characters. Obviously, there needs to be some system for core spec and skill progression. For that purpose, the incoming system does not seem half bad. It’s certainly more likely that I will level a new character under it than under the current system.

That leaves the issue of existing maxed characters who avoided getting ~1/3rd of the existing skill challenges in PvP (less, if you include the 13 in WvW). If it was not a mistake for ANet to allow these characters to level up so “easily” (Tomes) or get maxed skill/trait progression without touching much of the game, why is it now necessary to make them do some of that “leveling” stuff — no matter how much or little relative effort is involved?

Once I pose that question, I wonder about the conversion system. Obviously there will have to be a routine to determine a character’s current level — otherwise 80’s would not get their 400 points. Also obviously, there needs to be a routine to detect how many challenges have been completed to correctly allocate points for those. How difficult would it be to add a routine to: (a) detect total skill points earned; and (b) assign Hero Points for 65 of them as if they were challenges completed. That does not even seem complicated.

Where the (possible) complication arises is if there is a cap on Hero Points of 202. If there is, the assignment of Hero Points in some sort of grandfathering — whether it be based on skill points or some other factor — would also have to somehow count those “grandfathered” points towards the cap. This might mean tagging 65 of the challenges as having been completed, even if they weren’t. How does that affect map completion, should the player ever decide to pursue it? Does that mean they get credit for not doing a challenge? Or does it mean that character cannot ever do map completion?

I don’t claim to know what’s going on in ANet meetings, but I’d not be surprised if the issues in the prior paragraph came up, and are at least in part responsible for the lack of an announcement about possible grandfathering.

phys.7689:

actually you specifically were saying you think the system should be moving away from charachter progression. So if its a straw man, its the straw man you constructed.

and you havent done that content with that proffession.

So when you were quoting others you were repplying to me? Sounds totally honest and reasonable on your part. More straw please.

Since the content doesn’t change depending on the profession you’re using, there is no reason to repeat it with all your alts only to regain whatever progress you’ve already unlocked for your character. You’re not learning anything new here. You’re grinding.

Going by your logic, let’s force the pve crowd to “experience” the game. To unlock previously achieved progression you’d have to grind 10 lvls in spvp and another 20 wvw ranks. It’s only a few hours of play and it’s really really good for ya! Ammirite?

Bad design is bad design, and no amount of rationalization or white knighting can change that.

phys.7689:

Should i be able to see every charachter ending in street fighter because i beat the game with ryu?

If the game was giving you a token that reads “automatically win your next fight whatever character you control, and whatever character you’re up against” and if you got enough tokens to carry you to last boss fight and bypass that too, then yes, you should see the ending of the character you used them tokens with.

Anet gave scrolls and tomes, and so punishing the players for using the game’s mechanics is unfair and poor game design on their part. And no matter how much white knighting you do lad, that won’t change.

ArenaNet is simply trying to raise the level cap without actually raising it, but still keeping the benefits. Yes, the 1% will be forced into playing the core part of the game, but that’s also the point. They don’t want you to always be able to fully unlock a new specialization the day it’s released.

For the new elite specialization, expect to have to play through the story a bit before actually gaining access to it. In the future, expect to be required to complete all skill challenges in the new zones to have enough points.

They’re not going to bother creating a temporary workaround. So what if you’re missing a few skills that you probably don’t even use. Would you really want those extra points now just to delay the problem? The new elite specialization will cost another ~100 points.

When it comes to WvW, if they want to support it as its own mode, it needs to fully become its own mode. The simplest solution is to just make it use SPvP’s base. Alternatively, implement a WvW-mode for skill unlocks which uses hero points from WvW instead of PvE. You would be allowed to choose either your PvE or WvW build while in WvW.

thrag.9740:

Who cares if you use to need 25 skill points for heal skills? You could earn them playing how you want. If your enjoying yourself, its not much of a grind.

3 hours of gold farming? come on, the most expensive trait is only 3 g. I consistently pug cof1 in 8 mins. ac p123 in 45 mins total. Hell, ever arah runs are commonly 20-30 minutes.

Oh i know what the problem is. I’m clearly doing that content incorrectly because I never “learned to play” my profession by doing skill challenges.

no, you could play them by playing how YOU wanted without much of a grind(subjectively, not objective time spent). getting it via leveling is 25 levels, which is 12.5-25 hours in the open world 25-36 dungeon runs, which has a large variation of time required, from 4 hours to 400 hours, 6 hours+ in farming train depending on your luck. the minimum amount of effort wa sin the familly of 5 hours, for one skill. You just didnt realize this because you were always ahead in skill points, but an actual new player? it was horrible, and the future was it getting worse.
i notice you totally ignored that it took 360 skill points to unlock all your traits under the current system.
under the current system they would have started charging insane fees for endgame skills, further making the game have illogical prices in time for getting anything.

That is the flaw of a non scalable system, for old players it was fairly easy, for new players it was a huge hurdle.

the new system it will take you at the most 5 skill points per skill. You can expect something in that family for future skills, if they give hero points properly.
that takes 5 skill challenges.

lets see, under the old systems, even if they kept the same amounts

you would have needed 25×5 for the regular skills, and probably 50 at least for the elite. or 150 skill points just for the 5 new skills, and if specializations used the same amount as current skill trait lines, 72 skill points for the line. though since it is meant to be an endgame 80+ line it would probably have been more expensive.

so 222-300 skill points versus what will probably be anywhere from 60-100 under the new system. There isnt even enough skill points on the game map to account for that.

as an aside, the 3 hours of gold farming was based on the first few months when earning gold was a lot harder, when they corrected the system(based on inflation) the gold cost was 42 gold for all the traits. Which is probably why they removed gold from the equation, its value is ever shifting. back then one dungeon gave like 15 silver, or was it 28, and even the better teams took around 10 minutes (usually much more for most dungeon paths)per run. So you were looking a 2 hours-8 hours of dungeon paths to get the approx 2.5 gold you needed.

Coulter.2315:

WvW and PvE are the same thing, you cannot have 1 getting full unlock without affecting the other. PvP will have the option to buy the traits just as before no doubt.

WvW is just PvP in a PvE style environment… a hybrid of the game modes
it would not be difficult to seperate them entirely Anet simply have choosen not to

people can argue WvW is PvE but it isnt.. it just shares elements
and since the core focus of WvW is to fight other players that defaults it as PvP content

PorceleinEve.2973:

phys.7689:

actually you specifically were saying you think the system should be moving away from charachter progression. So if its a straw man, its the straw man you constructed.

and you havent done that content with that proffession.

So when you were quoting others you were repplying to me? Sounds totally honest and reasonable on your part. More straw please.

Since the content doesn’t change depending on the profession you’re using, there is no reason to repeat it with all your alts only to regain whatever progress you’ve already unlocked for your character. You’re not learning anything new here. You’re grinding.

Going by your logic, let’s force the pve crowd to “experience” the game. To unlock previously achieved progression you’d have to grind 10 lvls in spvp and another 20 wvw ranks. It’s only a few hours of play and it’s really really good for ya! Ammirite?

Bad design is bad design, and no amount of rationalization or white knighting can change that.

my quotes discussing the topic were in reply to what the posters said, when i quoted you, i was talking about what you said, like the quote FROM YOU that i showed you in the last post.

look at my posting history, i am far from a white knight. I analyze each situation based on the information present, many times that has been negative. However, the system itself is superior in design to the current, and even the original system.

Content does change based on the proffession you are using, thats the whole point of different proffessions.
I cant beat an encounter the same way on my theif, as i can on my guardian.

My logic has no connection to forcing pve players to do spvp, or previously earned progression or WvW ranks.

Spvp is completely self contained it has nothing to do with anything.

I have said repeatedly they should grandfather people who earned full unlocks as long as it doesnt create inconsistencies and problems within the system.

While i believe the old systems and the grandfathering were a mistake, i dont think anet can make players responsible for their design errors all the time.

The point is that in considering how they should go about grandfathering, you must consider what the new system is trying to achieve, and how said grandfathering effects players in the long run. Just creating any method of grandfathering that doesnt fit the design intent, or the system they created just creates more problems down the road.

Teratus.2859:

Coulter.2315:

WvW and PvE are the same thing, you cannot have 1 getting full unlock without affecting the other. PvP will have the option to buy the traits just as before no doubt.

WvW is just PvP in a PvE style environment… a hybrid of the game modes
it would not be difficult to seperate them entirely Anet simply have choosen not to

people can argue WvW is PvE but it isnt.. it just shares elements
and since the core focus of WvW is to fight other players that defaults it as PvP content

WvW is pvp with the central premise being you take the charachter and everything you have earned with it, and pit against other players and everything they have earned.

this is why in WvW level gives you an advantage
gear earned gives you an advantage
player skill gives you an advantage
gold earned gives you advantage
how many players like you gives you an advantage.
having a guild with unlocks gives you an advantage.

they created this mode essentially to be PVP with your main charachters/friends/server. Its essentially progression focused open world mass pvp. Sure you can level your low level charachter in WvW, but you will likely be repeatedly murderered fairly easily by fully progressed charachters, and you will likely have to try to blend into zergs and take pot shots in order to achieve anything.
The vast majority of WvW players play pve also.

Yes they can seperate it and give out unlocks pretty easily, i wont mind, but is that actually what players want? im not so sure. Many WvW players seem to like the core systems being linked.